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View Full Version : To Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovens, Hungarians..:wasn't life under socialism better?



JanDerrek
16-04-14, 15:08
Hi there. My question is to Eastern Europeans. Wasn't socialism better? Just look at the demographics of some European post socialist coutries. For example Czech Rep. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Czech_Republic). The birth rate in Czech Rep fell from 12,4 per 1000 in 1989 to 8,7 per 1000 in 1999, and the fertility rate from 1,87 per woman to 1,13 (!!!) per woman in 1999. So if capitalism is so good why do people have less and less children at capitalism . And look at this graph which shows the suicide statistics of Poland at the period of 1955-2008 (see http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/pola.pdf). Suicide rate in Poland was just 5,7 per 100.000 population and 11,2 per 100.000 pop. in 1980 and has increased during 1990s and 2000s (during capitalist reforms): 15,1 per 100.000 in 2000, 15,8 per 100.000 in 2005 and 14,9 per 100.000 in 2008 (the increase is about 50% from communist times). If communism was so horrible and capitalism is so nice why do more Poles kill themselves at capitalism than during socialism? Think about it!! So wasn't life better during socialism?
Thank you!!

LeBrok
16-04-14, 17:14
Hi there. My question is to Eastern Europeans. Wasn't socialism better? Just look at the demographics of some European post socialist coutries. It was a shithole back than with low standard of living, shortages of everything, and lack of freedoms. Please, watch some documentaries before asking such naive questions.


For example Czech Rep. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Czech_Republic). The birth rate in Czech Rep fell from 12,4 per 1000 in 1989 to 8,7 per 1000 in 1999, and the fertility rate from 1,87 per woman to 1,13 (!!!) per woman in 1999. So if capitalism is so good why do people have less and less children at capitalism . Birth rate always drops together with economic development, education and access to birth controls. Before that every third time people had sex they got pregnant. Now they can have sex for fun only all the time, till they decide to have a child.
During socialistic years countries were poorer with shortage of birth controls (people were getting used to this novelty) that's why there were more children per capita back then.
Birth rates in Africa is around 5 now, highest in the world. Do you think they live better than the rest of the world?
We don't have statistics from a developed and rich socialistic country because there is not even one example of such, and almost all of them collapsed (without external enemy and a war) about 20 years ago. That's how good socialism was!


And look at this graph which shows the suicide statistics of Poland at the period of 1955-2008 (see http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/pola.pdf). Suicide rate in Poland was just 5,7 per 100.000 population and 11,2 per 100.000 pop. in 1980 and has increased during 1990s and 2000s (during capitalist reforms): 15,1 per 100.000 in 2000, 15,8 per 100.000 in 2005 and 14,9 per 100.000 in 2008 (the increase is about 50% from communist times). If communism was so horrible and capitalism is so nice why do more Poles kill themselves at capitalism than during socialism? Think about it!! So wasn't life better during socialism?

Don't believe blindly in statistics done in Soviet Block. Did you ever hear about "Propaganda of Success"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_of_success
I lived my first 23 years in Poland during Soviet era, and never heard about big disasters happening in socialist countries. In Soviet Union there was never an earthquake, flood or planes crashing. We only learned about Chernobyl disaster when radioactive cloud made it to Sweden and Swedes reported that a big nuclear disaster must have happened in Russia. Only then Russian Communist party admitted that it happened.

Socialist regime still exists today, check this propaganda movie from North Korea, happy people and loved leader. Similar propaganda pieces were shown on TV daily in every socialist country.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yCHx9XQmPg

North Korea and Cuba are among poorest countries in the world where freedoms don't exist. There was a big news from Cuba recently. Cubans will be granted access to Internet soon!!! It should tell you something about quality of life there.

And before you post something else how good socialism is for the people, please give us an example of one socialist country where people have good standard of living and freedoms comparable to Western standards of living. One real life example please to prove your point.

dodona
16-04-14, 18:25
It was a shithole back than with low standard of living, shortages of everything, and lack of freedoms. Please, watch some documentaries before asking such naive questions. that's true. A living under the primitive and barbarian sovjet yoke was the most terrible experience of all righteous and brave east Europeans since the mongol conquest.

Ike
21-04-14, 00:54
Well it was much better, but then again Yugoslavia, although a socialistic country, was never a part of Eastern block.

It's true that birth rates drop with development, but that's like from 5-6 kids to 2-3, but when you have a drop from 1,83 (which is already considered low)to 1,13, then you know you're in deep trouble.

It is also not true that socialism collapsed by itself. Billions of dollars were invested by foreign militaries for that purpose. In fact that was one of the major causes NATO was formed at the beginning.

If you measure "better" with availability of Coca-Cola, Marlboro, jeans trousers and Rolling Stones LPs, then yes it was way better on the West.

LeBrok
21-04-14, 06:41
It is also not true that socialism collapsed by itself. Billions of dollars were invested by foreign militaries for that purpose. In fact that was one of the major causes NATO was formed at the beginning. Billons of dollars were invested in Eastern Block military too. The question still stands, what this has to do with collapse of communism (as self ended) in Europe? Cuba and N Korea didn't collapse yet, right?


If you measure "better" with availability of Coca-Cola, Marlboro, jeans trousers and Rolling Stones LPs, then yes it was way better on the West. Is this all you care about Ike? What about personal freedoms? Freedom to self expression, freedom to travel, freedom to criticise, freedom to vote, and what democracy stands for, etc?

Ike
21-04-14, 13:56
Billons of dollars were invested in Eastern Block military too. The question still stands, what this has to do with collapse of communism (as self ended) in Europe? Cuba and N Korea didn't collapse yet, right?
If I understood right, your question is "what does billions of dollars invested in collapse of communism have to do with collapse of communism"?



Is this all you care about Ike? What about personal freedoms? Freedom to self expression, freedom to travel, freedom to criticise, freedom to vote, and what democracy stands for, etc?
Democracy today stands for freedom to vote for any organization that is being financed from abroad. And that's all there is to it. West doesn't care about real democracy.
It's just an obscure term for "let us put our people on the head of your government so they can do what we like". We've all sen this being done dozens of times. Even schoolchildren are aware of that.

In my country, since the fall of communism we have lost all mentioned above - lost the possibility for self expression, lost freedom to travel, we have the freedom to criticize but only in our apartments, total media darkness is on since "democrats" prevailed.

LeBrok
21-04-14, 17:11
If I understood right, your question is "what does billions of dollars invested in collapse of communism have to do with collapse of communism"? I meant, how did you figure it was a main reason of collapse?




Democracy today stands for freedom to vote for any organization that is being financed from abroad. And that's all there is to it. West doesn't care about real democracy. And yet the Western World is the most democratic.


In my country, since the fall of communism we have lost all mentioned above - lost the possibility for self expression, lost freedom to travel, we have the freedom to criticize but only in our apartments, total media darkness is on since "democrats" prevailed. I'm sure you just don't like the way free people express themselves. They are free to become openly gays or embrace capitalism, the very unwanted element in "your country".

Ike
21-04-14, 19:17
I meant, how did you figure it was a main reason of collapse?

What else would it be? Economics under Soviets were surely not worse than under Tzar, yet again The Empire survived for centuries.


And yet the Western World is the most democratic.
As was an old Greece - full democracy.


I'm sure you just don't like the way free people express themselves. They are free to become openly gays or embrace capitalism, the very unwanted element in "your country".

It would be OK if it was just me, but it's lot of people, vast majority and it has nothing to do with gays. You're just making verbal diversion with them.
Take Slovenia for example. They're not even on Balkans, evaded devastations of Balkan wars, WW1, WW2, Yugoslavia civil war, had best GDP in Yugoslavia, has GDP of almost $30.000, yet again they say:

Vrbic (historian): “The Yugoslav passport was the best in the world, and you could travel anywhere,” said Mr. Vrbic, who at 16 hitchhiked from Ljubljana to India."
Troha (entrepreneur):"I miss Yugoslavia...We didn’t have anything, but we had everything.”


souce: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/30/world/europe/30yugo.html?_r=0


So if Slovenians think like this, what do you think rest of us think? Ye, we now have democracy, but we've lost everything else. This is worse terror than in Medieval Age. Things are going to burst. Riots are already happening:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slz2-oYsEpo

gyms
10-06-14, 14:42
Communism/socialism and nazism are the dark sides of the same inhumane coin.

Dagne
19-08-14, 20:02
Hi there. My question is to Eastern Europeans. Wasn't socialism better?
Thank you!!

You know, just for asking a question like this, one could be put to mental hospital (for the rest of your life) in those times...

Garrick
09-09-14, 04:52
You know, just for asking a question like this, one could be put to mental hospital (for the rest of your life) in those times...

The man has a right to ask. Both capitalism and socialism have their good and dark sides. No system is perfect, some people living under socialism, then they embrace capitalism, and wanted to turn back to socialism. Problems with the socialism as it existed: it was ineffective, choking free initiative, without innovation, lulled the people, did not allow criticism etc. Problems with capitalism: small number of people hold the majority of wealth, capital is more valued than labor and skills, successor system makes it difficult to penetrate the poor in the higher class, in the case of economic hardship burden shifts to taxpayers etc. What is needed is not FOR or AGAINST this or that but rather to apply appropriate system in a country where most people will live satisfying, and that system has good prospects and strengthen the long future.

Dagne
09-09-14, 08:24
“Problemswith capitalism: small number of people hold the majority of wealth, capital ismore valued than labor and skills, successor system makes it difficult topenetrate the poor in the higher class, in the case of economic hardship burdenshifts to taxpayers etc.”

It is alltrue about problems of capitalism, but the Communist regime, in addition, toits outrageous violation of human rights, holds exactly the same problems ofunjust society as capitalism:
All the wealth is at the hands of Elitecommunist party, connections (wealth, bribes) are much more important and valuedthan labor and skills (no one can get promoted without the connections, even ifa person is fully incompetent, he or she survives in a position because of freemarket competition – any factory or enterprise get state funding). Successorsystem is very powerful – elite communist party kids get all the training andpositions, in case of economic hardship (which is a normal state undercommunist regime – the “deficit” shortage of anything of better quality can beobtained by connections and bribes only).
The communistparty elite has everything – everyday goods are supplied as bonuses (free),there are special resort places, special shops for communist party elite.Besides, if a communist party member have criminal immunity – in order for acommunist party member to be brought to justice, communist party has to give itsconsent, and no communist party member can brought against criminal courtbefore that.
Overall,communist regime is fully based on lies and injustice. The difference withcapitalism is that without freedom of speech and media, it was very easy tohide it from publicity.

King Bardhyl
09-09-14, 12:06
Communism is the worst regime in the history of humankind. Until 1960 there was a balance between capitalism and communism. We have in this periods the economic boom on the capitalist countries and the begining of the fall of communist countries. The communist system was a utopia,he was at odds with human nature. Human being is selfish, ego is the center, while this was replaced in communism with us. The communist system degraded while did not guarantee basic elements of life. We're not talking about human rights and basic freedoms, which systematically oppressed. Obviously different countries have different characteristics, but the conclusion was the same.
There is a rule,every rule has an exception. Exemption in this case was the ex-Yugoslavia. Tito was an intelligent person. He played with both sides. West gave Tito a blank check, this blank check he supplemented himself, spent and in the end did not return anything. For this reasons the ex-Yugoslavia was an success, until the capitan of the ship was died and his place was taken by a pirate, Slobodan Milosevic.
Obviously the two camps spent billions against each other, this period is called Cold War, right? But this war was not won by the one who produced more tanks or cannons,but the one that produce refrigerators, TV and washing machines.
Concerning China, today i will consider a fascist state nothing connection with communism. North Korea is an communist state.
Key features of communism was HYPOCRISY, was a hypocrit system.

P.S.

In communist countries it was forbidden to kill yourself, you can be a considered a deserter and your family suffer the consequences.
Such for that shit of sistem.







Nothing good can arrive from an slavo-orthodox ideology.

Yetos
09-09-14, 13:50
@ Dagne,

I agree with you after many arques,

Communism start as an idea, revolt or occupation, and ended as a conservative system of a nomen class, the communist party, wich at its late became a Dictatorship.
the problem was that the party divide the 'milk' and 'fat' equal, but never the meat which was sold in black markets.
they learn the people that they have to live with an equal glass of milk, so everybody should be thankfull, but nobody was willing to do search, to develop, to produce,
that why even today the 'mother' of communism Russia stayed far behind industrial and technological, while all brilliant minds 'eascape' west.
The 'german minds' at the times of WW2 escape Nazis or taken by USA and Russia, they manage to raise the lavel of technology to both,
I remember Russia was the first who travel to space, etc etc, but what after 65 70's 80's
East Europe has fine internet due to the 'weighth' that communists gave to communication's from the times of 'cold war'
but after that? so military/industrial developement was done to show their abilitties, but the ship sunk, cause the party become a class, and slowly the rulling class until it became dictatorship.

'Let them closed, let them hungry, give a good meal every since and then, give them a fantastic show/event , they are quiet'


on the other hand Capitalism,
Capitalism is old, based in a free economy where merchantise follows the needs, where merchants can be rich or broke in one day,
but after WW2 Europe followed Caynes logic, we build state and national corporations with our taxes
search many according our needs, we progress daily living, and we produce 'rich or capital' from our hard working hours and searches,
and suddenly we decide to deposit our rich in tanks named banks, and took pappers
and we study the free system in universities from the times of Adam Smith but very hard after 1950's and we manage to create the monsters,
The Bankers, The Corporation,
which from a national treasure become international terror.
we destroy countries to feed the monsters, we kill people so us the monsters survive,
we even sold our national treasures like water, electricity, health, to the monsters.
for those who do not understand,
it is an example from India, in an valley where water was enough, a refreshment company open a factory to use the water, giving some jobs,
they put huge pumps draining major quantities of water, living almost no surface water, and very deep level in wells

the result was, bottled refreshment to cost cheaper than a glass of fresh clean water
that is capitalism

capitalism survive longer than communism due to 'mercenairies', the ones who kill, beat, use chemicals when i want to protest,
but capitalism is a bubble, it can easily 'boom' and needs years of 'caynes' to rebuild it.



PS
All I want to say is that in every system, we must work, we must protest, and we must ask for fair justice, and goverments for the people, not them shelves (Communism nomenclattura) neither for corporations/banks (capitalism's monsters)

Ike
09-09-14, 15:02
“Problemswith capitalism: small number of people hold the majority of wealth, capital ismore valued than labor and skills, successor system makes it difficult topenetrate the poor in the higher class, in the case of economic hardship burdenshifts to taxpayers etc.”

It is alltrue about problems of capitalism, but the Communist regime, in addition, toits outrageous violation of human rights, holds exactly the same problems ofunjust society as capitalism:
All the wealth is at the hands of Elitecommunist party, connections (wealth, bribes) are much more important and valuedthan labor and skills (no one can get promoted without the connections, even ifa person is fully incompetent, he or she survives in a position because of freemarket competition – any factory or enterprise get state funding).
This is not an exclusively communist problem, but problem of corruption which is ever-present. If you showed incompetent, in a capitalist regime your chief would get you fired as soon as possible, but in communist system the owner is the state and problem was that state and judical system were not ready and for this kind of job. No one was there to take responsibility to finger point the incompetent, and all the damage was suffered by the state. State is somewhat a complex concept, while on the capitalist side we have a corporation or an owner who is a person who is willing to push things further for his private interest.



Successorsystem is very powerful – elite communist party kids get all the training andpositions, in case of economic hardship (which is a normal state undercommunist regime – the “deficit” shortage of anything of better quality can beobtained by connections and bribes only).
It's not much different in capitalism. In both communist and capitalist regime the elite tries to hold others away. It's not like the old Hilton will leave his business to who is most competent. Bribery works on both sides of the globe, it is just that on the East was easier to get away with it, so it was done more openly. Why easier? We already covered that one in previous answer.


The communistparty elite has everything – everyday goods are supplied as bonuses (free),there are special resort places, special shops for communist party elite.

This has nothing to do with communism, it was just pure hypocrisy and exploitation of the system.


Besides, if a communist party member have criminal immunity – in order for acommunist party member to be brought to justice, communist party has to give itsconsent, and no communist party member can brought against criminal courtbefore that.
Nor was this. This was an usurpation of ruling system.


Overall,communist regime is fully based on lies and injustice. The difference withcapitalism is that without freedom of speech and media, it was very easy tohide it from publicity.

Overall you described one particular implementation of the communist system that, disregarding the basic forms, has not much in common with communism. In fact, you pinpointed exactly the non-communist elements of that society, and blamed them as wrongs of communism.

LeBrok
09-09-14, 17:01
This is not an exclusively communist problem, but problem of corruption which is ever-present. If you showed incompetent, in a capitalist regime your chief would get you fired as soon as possible, but in communist system the owner is the state and problem was that state and judical system were not ready and for this kind of job. No one was there to take responsibility to finger point the incompetent, and all the damage was suffered by the state. State is somewhat a complex concept, while on the capitalist side we have a corporation or an owner who is a person who is willing to push things further for his private interest.



It's not much different in capitalism. In both communist and capitalist regime the elite tries to hold others away. It's not like the old Hilton will leave his business to who is most competent. Bribery works on both sides of the globe, it is just that on the East was easier to get away with it, so it was done more openly. Why easier? We already covered that one in previous answer.



This has nothing to do with communism, it was just pure hypocrisy and exploitation of the system.


Nor was this. This was an usurpation of ruling system.



Overall you described one particular implementation of the communist system that, disregarding the basic forms, has not much in common with communism. In fact, you pinpointed exactly the non-communist elements of that society, and blamed them as wrongs of communism.

You can't see the difference how people live in free market capitalist economy countries to how people lived under so called communist countries?!!! You are blind like a bat, and all your understanding problems start here. I experianced both systems in my life, and I can tell you that you are blind.

Garrick
09-09-14, 17:44
“Problemswith capitalism: small number of people hold the majority of wealth, capital ismore valued than labor and skills, successor system makes it difficult topenetrate the poor in the higher class, in the case of economic hardship burdenshifts to taxpayers etc.”

It is alltrue about problems of capitalism, but the Communist regime, in addition, toits outrageous violation of human rights, holds exactly the same problems ofunjust society as capitalism:
All the wealth is at the hands of Elitecommunist party, connections (wealth, bribes) are much more important and valuedthan labor and skills (no one can get promoted without the connections, even ifa person is fully incompetent, he or she survives in a position because of freemarket competition – any factory or enterprise get state funding). Successorsystem is very powerful – elite communist party kids get all the training andpositions, in case of economic hardship (which is a normal state undercommunist regime – the “deficit” shortage of anything of better quality can beobtained by connections and bribes only).
The communistparty elite has everything – everyday goods are supplied as bonuses (free),there are special resort places, special shops for communist party elite.Besides, if a communist party member have criminal immunity – in order for acommunist party member to be brought to justice, communist party has to give itsconsent, and no communist party member can brought against criminal courtbefore that.
Overall,communist regime is fully based on lies and injustice. The difference withcapitalism is that without freedom of speech and media, it was very easy tohide it from publicity.


Very good point! If the tzar is capable then his son must be tzar. And what is the child is incapable?
But it is human nature (flawed logic). Yes, you are right, communist regimes practiced this a lot.
In Serbia, and Yugoslavia, however, it was not a prominent.
Starting from the president himself, Tito's children had not any special privileges.
But, what was a good, poor children had all the conditions to teach school (schools were free at all levels) and if they were worthly and able they could succeed in life.
For one society it is important that people can have a chance, unfortunately in the rigid societes, many do not have this oportunities.
In rigid communist countries because communist elite and poverty, in rigid capitalistic countries because poverty and oligarchic elite, etc.
Bad systems are those where no movement between social layers.
Serbia and Yugoslavia in this regard were the high achivement of civilization because many, even the poorest had the chance to skip social layers and become more prominent in society and material secured.
But, of course, it is not enough that one system is successful.
Socialistic system in Serbia and Yugoslavia, althought it was different from all the other socialist systems, suffered from certain ailments, which were systemic.
Again, in the first place I put (as in the last mail) that the socialist system (generally all so far) is ineffective (a little more about this in a reply to another member of forum).

LeBrok
09-09-14, 18:24
Very good point! If the tzar is capable then his son must be tzar. And what is the child is incapable?
But it is human nature (flawed logic). Yes, you are right, communist regimes practiced this a lot.
In Serbia, and Yugoslavia, however, it was not a prominent.
Starting from the president himself, Tito's children had not any special privileges. Same in poland, everybody was equal by law. You don't want to say that Tito's kids didn't live in a villa, was driven around in a limo, wearing western clothes, had preferential treatments in hospital and any public institution, etc. These are called privileges.



Serbia and Yugoslavia in this regard were the high achivement of civilization because many, even the poorest had the chance to skip social layers and become more prominent in society and material secured.
But, of course, it is not enough that one system is successful. Are you saying that in Yugoslavia type of socialism there were social layers, if not classes? And with all the equal opportunity and free education there were still poor people there? How was it possible in this great Yugoslav socialism?

Garrick
09-09-14, 18:46
Same in poland, everybody was equal by law. You don't want to say that Tito's kids didn't live in a villa, was driven around in a limo, wearing western clothes, had preferential treatments in hospital and any public institution, etc. These are called privileges.

Nothing special. They were ordinary people just like everyone else.



Are you saying that in Yugoslavia type of socialism there were social layers, if not classes? And with all the equal opportunity and free education there were still poor people there? How was it possible in this great Yugoslav socialism?

I use the term social layers. Because classes are stricter term.

Yes, social layers existed. Communist party elite, managerial elite (managers of enterprises), technocratic elite (in public sector) etc.
But, what is important is the members of these layers changed, in the other words, there was no inheritance (generally).

Yes, you are right, there were poor people. You can read what I wrote about the disadvantages of socialism. And generally, socialism is ineffective, and Yugoslav self-managed socialism too (although it was unique in the world, and different from all other); I will explain a little more in response to another member of forum.

Ike
10-09-14, 01:31
You can't see the difference how people live in free market capitalist economy countries to how people lived under so called communist countries?!!!
LoL, so it wasn't communist after all. Thank you for being sincere.


You are blind like a bat, and all your understanding problems start here. I experianced both systems in my life, and I can't tell you that you are blind.
Of course you can't. Thank you for this one also :grin:

Oh.... edited. Lame. But it was your true self speaking, before the evil LeBrok took over :)

LeBrok
10-09-14, 03:17
LoL, so it wasn't communist after all. Thank you for being sincere. Not in a sense of true definitions, it was more of a socialism especially in economic sense. Politically it was always a dictatorship of one party or one leader. It was called communist countries because they were ruled by parties that had word Communist in their names. I hope I don't have to explain that to you. ;)
Communism is very utopian and was never proven to work, and socialism barely working. No wonder it collapsed, with only two remaining N Korea and Cuba. We all know how great are these countries even with huge help from Soviet Union and China.

LeBrok
10-09-14, 03:39
Nothing special. They were ordinary people just like everyone else. I have a hard time to believe this story. Polish communist leaders wives were flying to Paris shopping, had private chauffeurs and big villas in many places, and being treated by top doctors in country or best hospitals in the world. Of course not official privileges, but still available to them.





I use the term social layers. Because classes are stricter term.

Yes, social layers existed. Communist party elite, managerial elite (managers of enterprises), technocratic elite (in public sector) etc.
But, what is important is the members of these layers changed, in the other words, there was no inheritance (generally).
I'm not sure if it works this way. I remember my elementary school in Poland and here are my observations from my class. The smartest kids were kids of local elite and professionals. The least smart were kids of poor social layer, physical workers, alcohol addicts, crime ridden margin of society. Gross being average kids of middle class people of various occupation. In my mind, given same education, smarts and good memory are mostly genetic. Who is blessed in good predisposition in logic and memory department, learns fast and advances much quicker than others. Carrying this thought, I don't see how kids of poor people can progress even into middle class, generally speaking of course. I realize that there are evenements and a people do move around through social layers, but most are stuck in place, unfortunately.

King Bardhyl
10-09-14, 07:22
We are speaking about communist countries not about revisionist countries.

Ike
11-09-14, 02:10
Not in a sense of true definitions, it was more of a socialism especially in economic sense. Politically it was always a dictatorship of one party or one leader. It was called communist countries because they were ruled by parties that had word Communist in their names. I hope I don't have to explain that to you. ;)

No you don't, and that's the point. Neither communist countries were really communist, and neither are capitalist countries really modern capitalist. They all are just a bunch of leaches.

Garrick
11-09-14, 17:55
Communism is the worst regime in the history of humankind. Until 1960 there was a balance between capitalism and communism. We have in this periods the economic boom on the capitalist countries and the begining of the fall of communist countries. The communist system was a utopia,he was at odds with human nature. Human being is selfish, ego is the center, while this was replaced in communism with us. The communist system degraded while did not guarantee basic elements of life. We're not talking about human rights and basic freedoms, which systematically oppressed. Obviously different countries have different characteristics, but the conclusion was the same.
There is a rule,every rule has an exception. Exemption in this case was the ex-Yugoslavia. Tito was an intelligent person. He played with both sides. West gave Tito a blank check, this blank check he supplemented himself, spent and in the end did not return anything. For this reasons the ex-Yugoslavia was an success, until the capitan of the ship was died and his place was taken by a pirate, Slobodan Milosevic.
Obviously the two camps spent billions against each other, this period is called Cold War, right? But this war was not won by the one who produced more tanks or cannons,but the one that produce refrigerators, TV and washing machines.
Concerning China, today i will consider a fascist state nothing connection with communism. North Korea is an communist state.
Key features of communism was HYPOCRISY, was a hypocrit system.

P.S.

In communist countries it was forbidden to kill yourself, you can be a considered a deserter and your family suffer the consequences.
Such for that shit of sistem.



(I owe this article to LeBrok).

There are problems with both capitalism and socialism. Some of them are different, among others can be found similarities.
One of big problems of socialism that it was ineffective.

Most countries have nurtured the so-called state capitalism (etatism), Albania too.
But there were exceptions.
In Serbia and Yugoslavia applied specific model of socialism, self-managed socialism.
It was different socialism compared with Albania, but still socialism.

Enterprises in Serbia and Yugoslavia were not state enterprises but social enterprises!
Practically closest model companies in the West would be workers' shareholding.
Good point of Serbian and Yugoslav self-managed social enterprises was it could develop business, enterprises has considered the market, and the productivity too.

And in such companies were developing managerial elite.
It is interesting, between communist elite which had political power, and managerial elite which led enterprises there were tensions, although managers of companies formally mainly were party members.

But, generally, Serbia and Yugoslavia has had a rapid development.
In the same time Albania, as state socialist country, was very poor.
Tens and tens of thousand of people due to poverty left Albania and went to Serbia.

Yes, Yugoslav socialism was a great achievement of civilization.
In Yugoslavia ruled principle of brotherhood and unity and nationalism and religion extremism of any kind had no place.
Both Serbia and Yugoslavia were giving a lot of money for the development of underdeveloped areas, especially where there were Albanians.

Yugoslav president Tito was the humanist, he believed that it was possible to achieve a hundred percent employment.
And Yugoslav laws have encouraged businesses to hire new workforce, and enterprises had obligations.
And Albanians lived in Serbia were massively employed (you can compare with Kosovo today which has a huge unemployement and economic inactivity).
But no state can keep a high rate of growth, Yugoslavia is no exception.

With the reduction of rate of growth problems Yugoslav enterprises there were visible.
Enterprises had objectively more workers than needed.
No managerial talents and abilities could not compensate the high costs due to redudancy.
What happened was that 20%, 30% (somewhere to 50%) workers at enterprises were redudant.
Yugoslav enterprises was gradually becoming uncompetitive.

And in the eighties economic crisis in Yugoslavia was visible.
What was necessary? A real reengineering of enterprises.
Managerial elite was trying to do something but communist elite was not ready for reforms.
Communists were afraid of labour strikes.

Communists were able to fight against all but not against labour unrests, they were primary labor party.
And they have tried to maintain status quo.

Big mistake!

The crisis intensified, enterprises were increasingly innefective, one of temporary solution was to borrow abroad.
And what happens when a crisis arises in multinational country as Yugoslavia, nationalisms began to grow.
In Slovenia and Croatia nationalists began to demand separatism, in Serbia unitarism.
Mr. Jansa and Mr. Tudjman were separatists, and Mr. Milosevic was unitarist, but all of them undermined the Yugoslav government that could cope with the problems.
In a way, they all together were allies!

But Slovenian, Croatian and Serbian nationalists were result of economic crisis of the eighties.
Thus, the self-managing socialism proved innefective even though it had a lot of good points.



Nothing good can arrive from an slavo-orthodox ideology.

It is stupid, it is not for comment.
I'm not saying that a Muslim cannot criticize Christianity, and Albanian cannot criticize Slavic nations, but in this case there are limits of good taste.

Sile
11-09-14, 20:10
(I owe this article to LeBrok).

There are problems with both capitalism and socialism. Some of them are different, among others can be found similarities.
One of big problems of socialism that it was ineffective.

Most countries have nurtured the so-called state capitalism (etatism), Albania too.
But there were exceptions.
In Serbia and Yugoslavia applied specific model of socialism, self-managed socialism.
It was different socialism compared with Albania, but still socialism.

Enterprises in Serbia and Yugoslavia were not state enterprises but social enterprises!
Practically closest model companies in the West would be workers' shareholding.
Good point of Serbian and Yugoslav self-managed social enterprises was it could develop business, enterprises has considered the market, and the productivity too.

And in such companies were developing managerial elite.
It is interesting, between communist elite which had political power, and managerial elite which led enterprises there were tensions, although managers of companies formally mainly were party members.

But, generally, Serbia and Yugoslavia has had a rapid development.
In the same time Albania, as state socialist country, was very poor.
Tens and tens of thousand of people due to poverty left Albania and went to Serbia.

Yes, Yugoslav socialism was a great achievement of civilization.
In Yugoslavia ruled principle of brotherhood and unity and nationalism and religion extremism of any kind had no place.
Both Serbia and Yugoslavia were giving a lot of money for the development of underdeveloped areas, especially where there were Albanians.

Yugoslav president Tito was the humanist, he believed that it was possible to achieve a hundred percent employment.
And Yugoslav laws have encouraged businesses to hire new workforce, and enterprises had obligations.
And Albanians lived in Serbia were massively employed (you can compare with Kosovo today which has a huge unemployement and economic inactivity).
But no state can keep a high rate of growth, Yugoslavia is no exception.

With the reduction of rate of growth problems Yugoslav enterprises there were visible.
Enterprises had objectively more workers than needed.
No managerial talents and abilities could not compensate the high costs due to redudancy.
What happened was that 20%, 30% (somewhere to 50%) workers at enterprises were redudant.
Yugoslav enterprises was gradually becoming uncompetitive.

And in the eighties economic crisis in Yugoslavia was visible.
What was necessary? A real reengineering of enterprises.
Managerial elite was trying to do something but communist elite was not ready for reforms.
Communists were afraid of labour strikes.

Communists were able to fight against all but not against labour unrests, they were primary labor party.
And they have tried to maintain status quo.

Big mistake!

The crisis intensified, enterprises were increasingly innefective, one of temporary solution was to borrow abroad.
And what happens when a crisis arises in multinational country as Yugoslavia, nationalisms began to grow.
In Slovenia and Croatia nationalists began to demand separatism, in Serbia unitarism.
Mr. Jansa and Mr. Tudjman were separatists, and Mr. Milosevic was unitarist, but all of them undermined the Yugoslav government that could cope with the problems.
In a way, they all together were allies!

But Slovenian, Croatian and Serbian nationalists were result of economic crisis of the eighties.
Thus, the self-managing socialism proved innefective even though it had a lot of good points.




It is stupid, it is not for comment.
I'm not saying that a Muslim cannot criticize Christianity, and Albanian cannot criticize Slavic nations, but in this case there are limits of good taste.

as my slavic work friends state ( a slovene and a croat ), everything started to go bad when the Serbs announced that the slovene and croat languages ( and other languages in yugoslavia) where dialects and will be replaced in schools by the serbian language...........the match was lit , is what they said

King Bardhyl
11-09-14, 21:01
(I owe this article to LeBrok).

There are problems with both capitalism and socialism. Some of them are different, among others can be found similarities.
One of big problems of socialism that it was ineffective.

Most countries have nurtured the so-called state capitalism (etatism), Albania too.
But there were exceptions.
In Serbia and Yugoslavia applied specific model of socialism, self-managed socialism.
It was different socialism compared with Albania, but still socialism.

Enterprises in Serbia and Yugoslavia were not state enterprises but social enterprises!
Practically closest model companies in the West would be workers' shareholding.
Good point of Serbian and Yugoslav self-managed social enterprises was it could develop business, enterprises has considered the market, and the productivity too.

And in such companies were developing managerial elite.
It is interesting, between communist elite which had political power, and managerial elite which led enterprises there were tensions, although managers of companies formally mainly were party members.

But, generally, Serbia and Yugoslavia has had a rapid development.
In the same time Albania, as state socialist country, was very poor.
Tens and tens of thousand of people due to poverty left Albania and went to Serbia.

Yes, Yugoslav socialism was a great achievement of civilization.
In Yugoslavia ruled principle of brotherhood and unity and nationalism and religion extremism of any kind had no place.
Both Serbia and Yugoslavia were giving a lot of money for the development of underdeveloped areas, especially where there were Albanians.

Yugoslav president Tito was the humanist, he believed that it was possible to achieve a hundred percent employment.
And Yugoslav laws have encouraged businesses to hire new workforce, and enterprises had obligations.
And Albanians lived in Serbia were massively employed (you can compare with Kosovo today which has a huge unemployement and economic inactivity).
But no state can keep a high rate of growth, Yugoslavia is no exception.

With the reduction of rate of growth problems Yugoslav enterprises there were visible.
Enterprises had objectively more workers than needed.
No managerial talents and abilities could not compensate the high costs due to redudancy.
What happened was that 20%, 30% (somewhere to 50%) workers at enterprises were redudant.
Yugoslav enterprises was gradually becoming uncompetitive.

And in the eighties economic crisis in Yugoslavia was visible.
What was necessary? A real reengineering of enterprises.
Managerial elite was trying to do something but communist elite was not ready for reforms.
Communists were afraid of labour strikes.

Communists were able to fight against all but not against labour unrests, they were primary labor party.
And they have tried to maintain status quo.

Big mistake!

The crisis intensified, enterprises were increasingly innefective, one of temporary solution was to borrow abroad.
And what happens when a crisis arises in multinational country as Yugoslavia, nationalisms began to grow.
In Slovenia and Croatia nationalists began to demand separatism, in Serbia unitarism.
Mr. Jansa and Mr. Tudjman were separatists, and Mr. Milosevic was unitarist, but all of them undermined the Yugoslav government that could cope with the problems.
In a way, they all together were allies!

But Slovenian, Croatian and Serbian nationalists were result of economic crisis of the eighties.
Thus, the self-managing socialism proved innefective even though it had a lot of good points.




It is stupid, it is not for comment.
I'm not saying that a Muslim cannot criticize Christianity, and Albanian cannot criticize Slavic nations, but in this case there are limits of good taste.

Your post is provocative. First i am not a Muslim, but even if I was I would not consider an problem for me. I am albanian and for us the nationality is before religion.
Theoretical Communism was a creation of Western Europe, mainly Germany.
Practical communism, implemented was a creature of Slavic Orthodoxy.

Yugoslav case constitutes an exception because Tito managed to hold back the Serbian element in the federation,and in this way to maintain balance in the federation.But this system set up by Tito needs financing , which arrived from the West.
West accepted to finance Tito project for reasons related to the conjuncture of the Cold War.

Disintegration of Yugoslavia began after Tito's death. Serbia sought to take command and put them without asking others.This led to the demolition of balances, and the disintegration of Yugoslavia.


The first signal were student protests in Pristina in Kosovo 11 and March 26, 1981 and later involvement of the entire Albanian population in dates 1 and 2 April 1981.

So where this thing started, it ended

You say:
"Tens and tens of thousand of people due to poverty left Albania and went to Serbia".
I had never heard before, can you elaborate this?

I think that you seek to provoke me.If you want we can continue to this:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=438004#post438004

Yetos
11-09-14, 22:09
Your post is provocative. First i am not a Muslim, but even if I was I would not consider an problem for me. I am albanian and for us the nationality is before religion.
Theoretical Communism was a creation of Western Europe, mainly Germany.
Practical communism, implemented was a creature of Slavic Orthodoxy.

Yugoslav case constitutes an exception because Tito managed to hold back the Serbian element in the federation,and in this way to maintain balance in the federation.But this system set up by Tito needs financing , which arrived from the West.
West accepted to finance Tito project for reasons related to the conjuncture of the Cold War.

Disintegration of Yugoslavia began after Tito's death. Serbia sought to take command and put them without asking others.This led to the demolition of balances, and the disintegration of Yugoslavia.


The first signal were student protests in Pristina in Kosovo 11 and March 26, 1981 and later involvement of the entire Albanian population in dates 1 and 2 April 1981.

So where this thing started, it ended

You say:
"Tens and tens of thousand of people due to poverty left Albania and went to Serbia".
I had never heard before, can you elaborate this?

I think that you seek to provoke me.If you want we can continue to this:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=438004#post438004



Not Only Psychotic but also provocateur and propagadinst,

The man not only History of the communist movements, but also spreads propagadindistic lies,

The first communist Philoshoper was St Ambrose from Milan superfluum quod tenes tu furaris
then we have Jean Jack ROusseau
Jack Pierre Brisot
PieRre Joseph Proudhon
Where they Germans?

All modern taxation System is based upon the anarchy part of Communists theory the Proudhon Theory and effort .
IN WEST EUROPE SOSIALISM EXIST MUCH BEFORE BOLSEVIK's OCTOBER DUE TO PROUDHON;s ANARCHY THEORY AND TAXATION SYSTEM.
which later evolute by Caynes

so France and England with Fourrier and (gash i can't remember his name name, he was BritisH with a name with L).


Now from Marx times the religion was considered as the 'people's opium'

King Bardhyl;438683[/B]]
Practical communism, implemented was a creature of Slavic Orthodoxy.

and you say that a christian Church gave birth to Communism?
MAYBE YOU ARE AN ATHEIST DUE TO COMMUNIST HODZA? BUT WASN"T HODZA THE COMMUNIST ETERNAL (FOR LIFE PRESIDENT) THAT SAID TO YOU DROP ALL RELIGIONS CAUSE THEY DO YOU HARM?
OR NOT?
SO COMMUNIST WHO CLOSED ALL CHURCHES AND TEMENS IN THEIR TERRITORIES WERE SLVIC ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS?

so he http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608023848747142236&pid=15.1&H=160&W=160 was an Orthodox Christian SLAV?

WHOM YOU KIDDING?
AND I ASK YOU POPE JOHN FROM POLLAND? WAS IN DUEL WITH COMMUNISTS OF POLAND FOR WHAT? CAUSE THEY WERE ORTHODOX?
is that you are telling us?



Pathetic
I BELIEVE STILL INSIDE YOU LIVE THE GHOST OF HODZA COMMUNISM.
you see every where Albanians, you say communism was german invation, and SLAV Orthodox Christians creature the 'living communism?
So for you slavic orthodox church drop all monarchies, and all systems and replace them with Communism?
was Slavic orthodox church also the one who brought Communist Hodza in Albania?
or Mao tse Tung in China was Slav Orthodox?, Naaa. Fidel Castro maybe?
or in Madrid and Barcelona?
The civil war in SPAIN among Franco, Communists and Anarchists was a creation of Slavic Orthodox Church?
the Parishian Communa was a creation by Slavic orthodox Church? maybe by German Carl Marx? :useless:


WHAT IS the NEXT you are gonna say?
the Slavic Orthodox Patriarches and Priests were members of communists party? hah?

you can not hide anymore,

King Bardhyl
11-09-14, 22:22
You are an ignorant and i am not going to lose my time with you.

"Now from Marx times the religion was considered as the 'people's opium'"
It was Lenin not Marx.

Yetos
11-09-14, 22:38
You are an ignorant and i am not going to lose my time with you.

"Now from Marx times the religion was considered as the 'people's opium'"
It was Lenin not Marx.



Theoretical Communism was a creation of Western Europe, mainly Germany.
Practical communism, implemented was a creature of Slavic Orthodoxy.


If I compare this 2 posts of Yours, then

LENIN WAS A LEADER OF SLAVIC ORTHODOXY? correct for you?
what about them?

King Bardhyl
11-09-14, 22:49
If I compare this 2 posts of Yours, then

LENIN WAS A LEADER OF SLAVIC ORTHODOXY? correct?


PS
If I was you, I would search a place to hide due to shame.

You have to understand something, I have no desire to talk to you. You are annoying and ignorant.

Yetos
11-09-14, 23:05
You are an ignorant and i am not going to lose my time with you.

"Now from Marx times the religion was considered as the 'people's opium'"
It was Lenin not Marx.



Theoretical Communism was a creation of Western Europe, mainly Germany.
Practical communism, implemented was a creature of Slavic Orthodoxy.


If I compare this 2 posts of Yours, then

LENIN WAS A LEADER OF SLAVIC ORTHODOXY? correct for you?
what about them?



http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608023848747142236&pid=15.1&H=160&W=160 Hodza


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Jaruzelski_Castro_1972.jpg/250px-Jaruzelski_Castro_1972.jpg Fidel castro, Miroslav Jaruzelski

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608036518907677312&pid=15.1&H=185&W=160 Mao


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/CeausescuKim1971.jpg/200px-CeausescuKim1971.jpg Ceausescu and Kim Sung


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Isaac_Puente.jpg/200px-Isaac_Puente.jpg Puente Barcelona Anarchists, was he an Orthodox Slav also?


PS
If I was you, I would search a place to hide due to shame.
not only you see Albanians everywhere,
now you see as Orthodox Slavs all these people

extra-nationalistic PSYCHOSIS


οη, not to forget

http://zanat0s.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/uncleho.jpg

perhaps he was an Orthodox Slav, http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

Tell us in the Forum.
Enver Hodza was an Orthodox Slav and create and lead Communist party in Albania? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Ike
12-09-14, 00:00
as my slavic work friends state ( a slovene and a croat ), everything started to go bad when the Serbs announced that the slovene and croat languages ( and other languages in yugoslavia) where dialects and will be replaced in schools by the serbian language...........the match was lit , is what they said

Don't know where you heard that. It is total lie. Never was anything similar tried or even talked about in Yugoslavia. Something like that would be totally anti Yugoslavian.

There was not even a Serbian language in Yugoslavia, it was called Serbo-Croat in Serbia, and Croato-Serb in Croatia. Practically the same language. When I read an article or the book, I often can't tell you for sure if it was on Croatian or Serbian.

Macedonians and Slovens on the other hand speak somewhat different languages which couldn't have been made equal to Serbian or Croatian.

Garrick
16-09-14, 22:52
Tell us in the Forum.
Enver Hodza was an Orthodox Slav and create and lead Communist party in Albania? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:



Enver Hoxha comes from Muslim Albanian family (Bektashi islam), he was Albanian communist leader.

In his time Albania was by far the poorest country in Europe, country of bunkers and without human rights.

In Serbia and Yugoslavia Albanians had human rights to the highest world standards and have received enormous financial support of Republic of Serbia and Yugoslav federation.

Probably about 100.000 Albanians (maybe more) fled Albania and came to live in Yugoslavia, mostly Serbia, due to poverty and repression they had in Albania.

Average Albanian, lived much better in Serbia and Yugoslavia than in Albania, had much better prospects and he or she was a free human being.

It is unbelievable that Enver Hoxha and his companions wanted to conquer the parts of Serbia/Yugoslavia and Greece and make Greater Albania, but their country was drowning in poverty and they were not able to feed the population.

People in other parts of Serbia and Yugoslavia gave hard earned income for areas where Albanians lived, but no thanks and joint efforts for a better tomorrow, but attempt to revitalize old (but failed) dreams of Greater Albania and setting back to the Islamic Ottoman Empire in the Balkans in early XIX century.

King Bardhyl
16-09-14, 23:36
In Serbia and Yugoslavia Albanians had human rights to the highest world standards and have received enormous financial support of Republic of Serbia and Yugoslav federation.

Probably about 100.000 Albanians (maybe more) fled Albania and came to live in Yugoslavia, mostly Serbia, due to poverty and repression they had in Albania.



It is unbelievable that Enver Hoxha and his companions wanted to conquer the parts of Serbia/Yugoslavia and Greece and make Greater Albania, but their country was drowning in poverty and they were not able to feed the population.

People in other parts of Serbia and Yugoslavia gave hard earned income for areas where Albanians lived, but no thanks and joint efforts for a better tomorrow, but attempt to revitalize old (but failed) dreams of Greater Albania and setting back to the Islamic Ottoman Empire in the Balkans in early XIX century.



1-Probably about 100.000 Albanians (maybe more) fled Albania and came to live in Yugoslavia, mostly Serbia, due to poverty and repression they had in Albania.
This is really beautifull, can you bring me some references? It`s very curious, never heard before.

2-It is unbelievable that Enver Hoxha and his companions wanted to conquer the parts of Serbia/Yugoslavia and Greece and make Greater Albania, but their country was drowning in poverty and they were not able to feed the population.

1962
Milovan Djilas:
Albania - Swallow it!

Milovan Djilas (1911-1995) was a writer and leading Yugoslav politician from Montenegro. He was a major figure of Yugoslav communism after the Second World War, but later, by 1954, became a prominent critic of Tito and spent many years in prison. In January 1948, Djilas was sent to Moscow to negotiate with Stalin, with whom Yugoslavia was still allied. Their meetings and discussions, revealed by Djilas in his book "Conversations with Stalin," dealt among other things with Albania, as seen in the following extracts. Stalin's obvious indifference to Albania contrasts sharply with the official admiration with which he was held in Albania throughout the Hoxha regime. In the 1980s, Albania was the last country on earth still to revere Joseph Stalin.


As usual, at about nine o’clock in the evening they took me to the Kremlin, to Stalin’s office. Gathered there were Stalin, Molotov, and Zhdanov. The last, as was known to me, had charge in the Politburo of maintaining relations with foreign parties.
After the customary greetings, Stalin immediately got down to business: “So, members of the Central Committee in Albania are killing themselves over you! This is very inconvenient, very inconvenient.”
I began to explain: Nako Spiru was against linking Albania with Yugoslavia; he isolated himself in his own Central Committee. I had not even finished when, to my surprise, Stalin said: “We have no special interest in Albania. We agree to Yugoslavia swallowing Albania! ...” At this he gathered together the fingers of his right hand and, bringing them to his mouth, he made a motion as if to swallow them.
I was astonished, almost struck dumb by Stalin’s manner of expressing himself and by the gesture of swallowing, but I do not know whether this was visible on my face, for I tried to make a joke of it and to regard this as Stalin’s customary drastic and picturesque manner of expression. Again I explained: “It is not a matter of swallowing, but unification!”
At this Molotov interjected: “But that is swallowing!”
And Stalin added, again with that gesture of his: “Yes, yes. Swallowing! But we agree with you: you ought to swallow Albania—the sooner the better.”
Despite this manner of expression, the whole atmosphere was cordial and more than friendly. Even Molotov expressed that bit about swallowing with an almost humorous amiability which was hardly usual with him.
I approached a rapprochement and unification with Albania with sincere and, of course, revolutionary motives.

[extracts from Milovan Djilas. Conversations with Stalin. Translated from the Serbo-Croatian by Michael B. Petrovich (New York: Harcourt, Brace & World, 1962). pp. 78-79, 133-138, 143-147.]

3-People in other parts of Serbia and Yugoslavia gave hard earned income for areas where Albanians lived, but no thanks and joint efforts for a better tomorrow, but attempt to revitalize old (but failed) dreams of Greater Albania and setting back to the Islamic Ottoman Empire in the Balkans in early XIX century.

You are speaking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trep%C4%8Da_Mines ?

4-In Serbia and Yugoslavia Albanians had human rights to the highest world standards and have received enormous financial support of Republic of Serbia and Yugoslav federation.

You are speaking about this man:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandar_Rankovi%C4%87
or about thi organizations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Security_Administration
or this beautifull place: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goli_otok

King Bardhyl
16-09-14, 23:40
Read this:
http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_2/AH1937_1.html
1937
Vaso Cubrilovic:
The Expulsion of the Albanians - Memorandum

"The Expulsion of the Albanians," is a memorandum prepared and written by the noted Bosnian Serb scholar and political figure Vaso Cubrilovic (1897-1990). As a student in 1914, Cubrilovic had participated in the assassination in Sarajevo of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary, the event which precipitated the First World War. Between the two wars, he was professor at the Faculty of Arts in Belgrade. A leading member of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Art, Cubrilovic also held several ministerial portfolios after World War II. Among his writings is the monograph "Istorija politicke misle u Srbiji XIX veka," Belgrade 1958 (History of political thought in Serbia in the 19th century).

And this:
http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_2/AH1944_1.html
1944
Vaso Cubrilovic:
The Minority Problem in the New Yugoslavia: Memorandum "The Minority Problem in the New Yugoslavia," is a second memorandum on the Albanians (and other minorities) written by the noted Bosnian Serb scholar and political figure Vaso Cubrilovic (1897-1990). As a student in 1914, Cubrilovic had participated in the assassination in Sarajevo of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary, the event which precipitated the First World War. Between the two wars, he was professor at the Faculty of Arts in Belgrade. A leading member of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Art, Cubrilovic also held several ministerial portfolios after World War II. Among his writings is the monograph "Istorija politicke misle u Srbiji XIX veka," Belgrade 1958 (History of political thought in Serbia in the 19th century).

King Bardhyl
16-09-14, 23:44
Your friend Ike could not continue the discussion here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=438003#post438003
Are you ready?
And stop with BS

albanopolis
16-09-14, 23:46
Enver Hoxha comes from Muslim Albanian family (Bektashi islam), he was Albanian communist leader.

In his time Albania was by far the poorest country in Europe, country of bunkers and without human rights.

In Serbia and Yugoslavia Albanians had human rights to the highest world standards and have received enormous financial support of Republic of Serbia and Yugoslav federation.

Probably about 100.000 Albanians (maybe more) fled Albania and came to live in Yugoslavia, mostly Serbia, due to poverty and repression they had in Albania.

Average Albanian, lived much better in Serbia and Yugoslavia than in Albania, had much better prospects and he or she was a free human being.

It is unbelievable that Enver Hoxha and his companions wanted to conquer the parts of Serbia/Yugoslavia and Greece and make Greater Albania, but their country was drowning in poverty and they were not able to feed the population.

People in other parts of Serbia and Yugoslavia gave hard earned income for areas where Albanians lived, but no thanks and joint efforts for a better tomorrow, but attempt to revitalize old (but failed) dreams of Greater Albania and setting back to the Islamic Ottoman Empire in the Balkans in early XIX century.

Some parts of your posting are unfortunately true, and of course many are exaggerations.
Like the one you are saying that Albs had fewer freedoms in their own country than their counterparts in Yugoslavia. Albanians were not allowed to travel outside of their country out of fear of being infected with capitalist ideology.
And of course Albania was doing much worse economically.
But Kosovo was intentionally left underdeveloped with the aim of them immigration to the west and emptying their ancestral lands. And it worked to certain extent.
They had a slogan:" Kosovo works, Belgrade is being build" which was true.
Albanians had to shed blood for those few apartments build by Belgrade. Serb regime was oppressive and bloody similar with Palestine today.
Have you been to Kosovo recently?
In 15 years they have build 5 times more living quarters than Belgrade build in 88 years rule,
I lived under socialism. For certain things I still get nostalgic.
The sense of security was absolute. That little paying job was secure, crime was rare, drugs nonexistent
But economically was utterly inferior to capitalism. It killed the motivation to work .
Socialism did a lot of service to capitalism. Since socialism had free health care, free education and some other free things threaten the very existence of capitalism. So capitalism had to adopt those forms to survive.
That's why the regimes today in Europe are a marriage capitalism+socialism or "mixed economies" is the term
To make my point, socialism was not entirely worthless as it was with capitalism which was not entirely worth.

Garrick
17-09-14, 00:20
Your friend Ike could not continue the discussion here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=438003#post438003
Are you ready?
And stop with BS

You write something completely different.

And do not answer the questions:

Where did Albanians live better:
a) in Albania (Enver Hoxha and companions)
b) In Serbia and Yugoslavia

Where did Albanians have better human rights:
a) in Albania (Enver Hoxha and companions)
b) in Serbia and Yugoslavia.

Where did Albanians themselves like more to live:
a) in Albania (Enver Hoxha and companions)
b) in Serbia and Yugoslavia

Which did state give for development undeveloped areas:
a) Albania (Enver Hoxha and companions)
b) Serbia and Yugoslavia for undeveloped areas whee Albanians lived.

You maybe don't know how much the amount was given by Republic of Serbia and Yugoslav Federation for areas where Albanians lived but you can find, or you can ask older Albanians, they will tell you.

But the biggest problem is to restore the Middle Ages, in Yugoslavia was big progress, but today, examples:

ISIS fighter from Kosovo praises jihad in Syria
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2013/10/isis_fighter_from_ko.php

Albanians Fighting for ISIS earn $65/day, come from Middle Class Families
http://europenews.dk/en/node/83259

ISIS Albanian Mujahideen celebrating the liberation of Mosul in Iraq
http://tune.pk/video/3933167/isis-albanian-mujahideen-celebrating-the-liberation-of-mosul-in-irak

Ike
17-09-14, 02:19
Your friend Ike could not continue the discussion here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=438003#post438003

I didn't WANT to continue discussion there for 2 reasons:

1. your discussing was total off topic
2. you were speaking nonsense, jumping from one argument to another, involving random scripts and quotes that had nothing to do with conversation, etc.

Last time (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=437978&viewfull=1#post437978) we spoke you said incredible things that you ought to explain. You seem only able to spill numerous amount of data, without even caring for consistency, if they are only praising your nation and detracting your neighbours. That has a name. Yetos just diagnosed you with acute case of Slavo-Orthodox-phobia, and I am joining in.

Ike
17-09-14, 02:31
1. They had a slogan:" Kosovo works, Belgrade is being build" which was true.
2. Albanians had to shed blood for those few apartments build by Belgrade. Serb regime was oppressive and bloody similar with Palestine today.


Ok, lets start with this period of Communist Yugoslavia:

1. So could people in the oil-platform chant : "North Sea works, London is being built". That slogan that went had nothing to do with reality.

Anyways, in those times Kosovo still had about 2/3 Albanians. Could you explain how did Communists divide the taxes on ethnic basis? Or you're saying that from whole population of Kosovo had somehow been taken more money than from the rest of country?

2. Example please. What was Serb regime in those days? What men consisted it? What did they accomplished or what were they trying to do?
Example of blood and similarities with Palestine today?

albanopolis
17-09-14, 03:26
Ok, lets start with this period of Communist Yugoslavia:

1. So could people in the oil-platform chant : "North Sea works, London is being built". That slogan that went had nothing to do with reality.

Anyways, in those times Kosovo still had about 2/3 Albanians. Could you explain how did Communists divide the taxes on ethnic basis? Or you're saying that from whole population of Kosovo had somehow been taken more money than from the rest of country?

2. Example please. What was Serb regime in those days? What men consisted it? What did they accomplished or what were they trying to do?
Example of blood and similarities with Palestine today?

Actually the slogan was: "Trebce works, Belgrade is being build" in reference to Trebce mine in Mitrovica.
That mine was the lifeline of Yugoslav regime securing a good sum of hard currency.
I don't know how old are you but there have been successive Albanian uprisings
I don't remember exactly how many were before 1967 but there was one in 1967, 1974, 1981, 1989, 1998
They were all put down bloodily by Serbian army causing many casualties and immigration.
In 1998 was an expected event by all western powers known the bloody history of uprisings
Now that's all history but my point is to your reference that Albanians wanted to have an enlarged country on the back of Serbian territories
Many in the west did not believe that Kosovo was a serbian territory. Otherwise they would not have been ready to separate it from Serbia.
Its not like the west hated Serbia and they decided to punish her by taking territories.
There was a consensus that Kosovo was a colony and was been ripped off its riches by the colonizers.

albanopolis
17-09-14, 03:51
You write something completely different.

And do not answer the questions:

Where did Albanians live better:
a) in Albania (Enver Hoxha and companions)
b) In Serbia and Yugoslavia

Where did Albanians have better human rights:
a) in Albania (Enver Hoxha and companions)
b) in Serbia and Yugoslavia.

Where did Albanians themselves like more to live:
a) in Albania (Enver Hoxha and companions)
b) in Serbia and Yugoslavia

Which did state give for development undeveloped areas:
a) Albania (Enver Hoxha and companions)
b) Serbia and Yugoslavia for undeveloped areas whee Albanians lived.

You maybe don't know how much the amount was given by Republic of Serbia and Yugoslav Federation for areas where Albanians lived but you can find, or you can ask older Albanians, they will tell you.

But the biggest problem is to restore the Middle Ages, in Yugoslavia was big progress, but today, examples:

ISIS fighter from Kosovo praises jihad in Syria
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2013/10/isis_fighter_from_ko.php

Albanians Fighting for ISIS earn $65/day, come from Middle Class Families
http://europenews.dk/en/node/83259

ISIS Albanian Mujahideen celebrating the liberation of Mosul in Iraq
http://tune.pk/video/3933167/isis-albanian-mujahideen-celebrating-the-liberation-of-mosul-in-irak
In regard to your observation that Albanians are fighting for Isis: Its unfortunately true.
Many low intelligence Albanian folks have joined the movement. But Serbs to are also fighting in Russian side in Ukraine. Many Serbs were killed in Libia during Ghadaf war with western powers.
But you can not equate the actions of some individuals with the nation as a whole.
There are individuals who have joined the movement for religions reasons, others for adventure, many are being payed by their sponsors. Its certainly not a good thing to see but its not something unheard of. You are aware of american citizens fighting for Taliban in Afghanistan.
They were caught by the American army and were jailed in US.

Ike
17-09-14, 04:01
Actually the slogan was: "Trebce works, Belgrade is being build" in reference to Trebce mine in Mitrovica.That mine was the lifeline of Yugoslav regime securing a good sum of hard currency
Exactly as in my example. I've just put an oil-platform instead.



I don't know how old are you but there have been successive Albanian uprisings
I don't remember exactly how many were before 1967 but there was one in 1967, 1974, 1981, 1989, ...
They were all put down bloodily by Serbian army causing many casualties and immigration.
That not true. There was no Serbian army in those times. JNA and it's leadership were only partly Serbian. And there was no bloody uprising. Post pictures or other data, if you think otherwise.



In 1998 was an expected event by all western powers known the bloody history of uprisings.
Now that's all history but my point is to your reference that Albanians wanted to have an enlarged country on the back of Serbian territories
Many in the west did not believe that Kosovo was a serbian territory. Otherwise they would not have been ready to separate it from Serbia.
Its not like the west hated Serbia and they decided to punish her by taking territories.
There was a consensus that Kosovo was a colony and was been ripped off its riches by the colonizers.
This is after the fallout of Yugoslavia, and it's mainly untrue. We know what happened in Kosovo, and we talked with sincere Albanians, who were not willing to give up their integrity for a fistful of dollars. Some of them live peacefully in Belgrade right now:
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/interviews/albanian.htm

And the very end you can read where would he really like to live. Very on topic.

Offtopic (suggest you start a separate thread if you want to respond on this part):
He correctly predicted the sad future for Kosovo in years to come, and also predicted the emergence of new wave of Albanian irredentism that we see nowdays is summoning a new Balkan war. We now have calls (http://inserbia.info/today/2014/07/natural-albania-macedonia-is-dead-serbia-is-next/) for Natural Albania, forced (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=WQ&reference=E-2012-000111&format=XML&language=EN) Albanization of population. That guy Kresnik Spahiu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_and_Black_Alliance) who supported that act was even the deputy president of the Supreme Court of Albania?!

LeBrok
17-09-14, 04:02
ISIS fighter from Kosovo praises jihad in Syria
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2013/10/isis_fighter_from_ko.php

Albanians Fighting for ISIS earn $65/day, come from Middle Class Families
http://europenews.dk/en/node/83259

ISIS Albanian Mujahideen celebrating the liberation of Mosul in Iraq
http://tune.pk/video/3933167/isis-albanian-mujahideen-celebrating-the-liberation-of-mosul-in-irak Wow, this is a punch below the belt, dude!

albanopolis
17-09-14, 12:01
Exactly as in my example. I've just put an oil-platform instead.



That not true. There was no Serbian army in those times. JNA and it's leadership were only partly Serbian. And there was no bloody uprising. Post pictures or other data, if you think otherwise.



This is after the fallout of Yugoslavia, and it's mainly untrue. We know what happened in Kosovo, and we talked with sincere Albanians, who were not willing to give up their integrity for a fistful of dollars. Some of them live peacefully in Belgrade right now:
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/interviews/albanian.htm

And the very end you can read where would he really like to live. Very on topic.

Offtopic (suggest you start a separate thread if you want to respond on this part):
He correctly predicted the sad future for Kosovo in years to come, and also predicted the emergence of new wave of Albanian irredentism that we see nowdays is summoning a new Balkan war. We now have calls (http://inserbia.info/today/2014/07/natural-albania-macedonia-is-dead-serbia-is-next/) for Natural Albania, forced (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=WQ&reference=E-2012-000111&format=XML&language=EN) Albanization of population. That guy Kresnik Spahiu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_and_Black_Alliance) who supported that act was even the deputy president of the Supreme Court of Albania?!
I don't see the need for a new topic
It will be a waste of time
I can't change you views, neither can you mine
The trauma Serbs have caused to the national psyche of Albanians will never be healed.
The topic of socialism is interesting
Slavs are largely responsible for that creature. It was not all bad though. Regardless the huge number of victims it caused as mentioned in the above had some positive imprints in societies.
Yugoslavia had the mildest for of socialism.

albanopolis
17-09-14, 12:06
Its certainly not a good thing.
Most imams get schooled in Arabic countries which are hotbed of radicalization.
Albanians have not a school of their own for clerics of any religion.

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 15:42
@ Ike& Garrick
I don’t want to lose much time with you guys. I want to stay at two interesting moments.
First this theory of 100.000 albanian who emigrate to Serbia is very curios and I insiste that you elaborate better this theory, because never heard before.
Second:
Your words
“But the biggest problem is to restore the Middle Ages, in Yugoslavia was big progress, but today, examples:

ISIS fighter from Kosovo praises jihad in Syria
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archiv...er_from_ko.php (http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2013/10/isis_fighter_from_ko.php)

Albanians Fighting for ISIS earn $65/day, come from Middle Class Families
http://europenews.dk/en/node/83259

ISIS Albanian Mujahideen celebrating the liberation of Mosul in Iraq
http://tune.pk/video/3933167/isis-al...-mosul-in-irak (http://tune.pk/video/3933167/isis-albanian-mujahideen-celebrating-the-liberation-of-mosul-in-irak)”

Where did you owe this article, LeBrok?
You should note that there are people who read what we write and you can not mock the intelligence of readers
The human being first observes and then draws conclusions . With a simple observation, you are trying to confuse the discussion about communism, Albanians and Serbs and Islamic fundamentalism.
I am willing to discuss all three, but let's share from each other. Let`s don’t make confusion.



Conclusion


Regarding the discussion on the Albanians and the Serbs let pass here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=439209#post439209
I have invited you different time , this time i challenge you both and others. Enough with bored.
Let's put on the table and see who has the greatest.

Yugoslavia was destroyed by you Serbs.
Milosevic sent you four times with tanks and you come back four times with tractors.

About communism i have expressed my opinion about the issue.
My words:
“Practical communism, implemented was a creature of Slavic Orthodoxy”.
And i am ready to discuss with you. But before that i want to be clear your intellectual level is not the same as the Yetos.
So, I am making an question: who is the most important book for an comunist, the Bible Communism?

P.S.
You should not refer Yetos. There are three weeks and he still today could not tell me one name of a greek hero of Greek revolution. According to my information he have an problem of health. He can not stay more than 5 min sit in a chair.

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 15:43
Wow, this is a punch below the belt, dude!


Ncncncq, they hit themselfe.
Yours was a punch below the belt, dude!

You have stay in the middle, you are an moderator.
P.S.
I have made you this question:
What are the features that define that a certain group of people constitute an ethnos?

Is this:
Your words:
“We can say that although linguistically Northern Macedonia changed a lot, but there is overwhelming genetic continuity with ancient Macedonians or Greeks, if you will. Their diet is close to Greeks, and similar music, ethnic cloths and many customs”.?

Ike
17-09-14, 16:06
I don't see the need for a new topic
It will be a waste of time
I can't change you views, neither can you mine
The trauma Serbs have caused to the national psyche of Albanians will never be healed.
The topic of socialism is interesting
Slavs are largely responsible for that creature. It was not all bad though. Regardless the huge number of victims it caused as mentioned in the above had some positive imprints in societies.
Yugoslavia had the mildest for of socialism.

And I lived among those Serbs, and I've seen them doing their best trying to keep Yugoslavia lasting as a multinational state. Even when we all departed from them, the small Yugoslavia was still the only country where all nationalities exercised their citizens right properly. We can see that from migrations and census percentages. It is were clear what territories people escaped (we can assume why) and that migrations went towards small Yugoslavia (only Serbia and Montenegro by that time). You always claim nonsense here, and fail to explain why would Croats or Albanians be coming into Serbia if their rights or lives were jeopardized. I don't really care about Serbs, but in the same time you miss to explain why did Albanians on Kosovo started real ethnic cleansing of other Kosovo ethnicities as soon as they got a chance:

http://www.errc.org/article/five-years-of-ethnic-cleansing-of-gypsies-from-kosovo/1924
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Rifati_Kosovo.htm

You play a role of victim here, but this was a trend from decades ago, and it turn out more serious as federal government went weaker.

In communist Yugoslavia the number of Albanians quadrupled during that four decades of what Albanians like to call terror. Pristina had (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pristina#World_War_II) less than 10 thousand people in 1949, and it went up to 110 thousands in 1981. The "evil communist" built hospitals, roads, railway, library (most modern one in Yugoslavia - it had conveyer belts and elevators for the books), University, etc. We all know how well communists treated Albanians. Your needs were put before anyone else's because they thought that by treating you special you'd come down to your senses and become decent citizens of the country. And I sincerely mourn the trauma you've inflicted to yourself by abusing your rights in Yugoslavia and then going rogue persuaded by you CIA allies whose only goal was to destroy our country.

If interested, people can read about the culmination of that disgusting and auto-destructive behavior from ex Pristina Jewish community president (and a historian):
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/interviews/keys.htm

albanopolis
17-09-14, 16:25
And I lived among those Serbs, and I've seen them doing their best trying to keep Yugoslavia lasting as a multinational state. Even when we all departed from them, the small Yugoslavia was still the only country where all nationalities exercised their citizens right properly. We can see that from migrations and census percentages. It is were clear what territories people escaped (we can assume why) and that migrations went towards small Yugoslavia (only Serbia and Montenegro by that time). You always claim nonsense here, and fail to explain why would Croats or Albanians be coming into Serbia if their rights or lives were jeopardized. I don't really care about Serbs, but in the same time you miss to explain why did Albanians on Kosovo started real ethnic cleansing of other Kosovo ethnicities as soon as they got a chance:

http://www.errc.org/article/five-years-of-ethnic-cleansing-of-gypsies-from-kosovo/1924
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Rifati_Kosovo.htm

You play a role of victim here, but this was a trend from decades ago, and it turn out more serious as federal government went weaker.

In communist Yugoslavia the number of Albanians quadrupled during that four decades of what Albanians like to call terror. Pristina had (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pristina#World_War_II) less than 10 thousand people in 1949, and it went up to 110 thousands in 1981. The "evil communist" built hospitals, roads, railway, library (most modern one in Yugoslavia - it had conveyer belts and elevators for the books), University, etc. We all know how well communists treated Albanians. Your needs were put before anyone else's because they thought that by treating you special you'd come down to your senses and become decent citizens of the country. And I sincerely mourn the trauma you've inflicted to yourself by abusing your rights in Yugoslavia and then going rogue persuaded by you CIA allies whose only goal was to destroy our country.

If interested, people can read about the culmination of that disgusting and auto-destructive behavior from ex Pristina Jewish community president (and a historian):
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/interviews/keys.htm
Interesting point of view!
All ethnicitys in Yugoslavia were treated well, and all of them with no exception took up arms against Serbia!
Even though Serbia was not trying to dominate their lives or rip off their reaches!
I would guess that every other ethnicity but Serbia were idiots!
What other explanation could be because they were treated humanly and they violently rebelled this treatment1

Ike
17-09-14, 16:46
Interesting point of view!
All ethnicitys in Yugoslavia were treated well, and all of them with no exception took up arms against Serbia!
Even though Serbia was not trying to dominate their lives or rip off their reaches!
I would guess that every other ethnicity but Serbia were idiots!
What other explanation could be because they were treated humanly and they violently rebelled this treatment1

Only the terrorist of KLA and NATO took up arms against Serbia. Serbia didn't wage war against any of the 6 SFR Yugoslavia republics. You're just making that up to paint a bad picture of Serbia that, you think, would somehow take responsibility from Albanians for their violent and stupid actions.

FBS
17-09-14, 16:54
Hahaha Ike and his LaLa land. I lived in Yugoslavia, we had cases when 14 year olds were sent to Goli Otok. Everything was done under the sheet, so the world would not know. We were heavily in debts, and we just realized that after Titos death. It was a beautiful dream while it lasted. Life under socialism was not better, at least not the one that was created by slavic nations and imported by others. In Albania and Romania was one of the harshest, Bulgaria was not better either. In YU it was all milk and honey for the ruling class and their minions. The rest were equally poor.

albanopolis
17-09-14, 16:59
Only the terrorist of KLA and NATO took up arms against Serbia. Serbia didn't wage war against any of the 6 SFR Yugoslavia republics. You're just making that up to paint a bad picture of Serbia that, you think, would somehow take responsibility from Albanians for their violent and stupid actions.
There was an armed struggle by Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia.
ll against Serbia!

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 17:09
Vukovar statements In a May 2012 interview, Nikolić was quoted by Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurter_Allgemeine_Zeitung) to have said that ″Vukovar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vukovar) was a Serb city and Croats have nothing to go back to there″.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-42) Croatian President Ivo Josipović (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivo_Josipovi%C4%87) criticized Nikolić for this statement and conditioned future cooperation on Nikolić's withdrawal of the statement.[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-43)
The following day Nikolić's office issued a statement saying that Nikolić never made any such statement and called it a ″treacherous lie″.[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-44) However, Michael Martens, the journalist of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung subsequently published the audio recording showing that Nikolić had indeed made that statement.[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-45)
Comments about Srebrenica massacre On 2 June 2012, Nikolić stated on Montenegrin television that "there was no genocide in Srebrenica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre). In Srebrenica, grave war crimes were committed by some Serbs who should be found, prosecuted and punished. [...] It is very difficult to indict someone and prove before a court that an event qualifies as genocide." Nikolić also stated that he wouldn't attend the annual commemoration of the Srebrenica massacre: "Don't always ask the Serbian president if he is going to Srebrenica, my predecessor was there and paid tribute. Why should every president do the same?"[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-Guardian-46)
Bakir Izetbegović (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakir_Izetbegovi%C4%87), a member of Bosnia and Herzegovina's presidency, said Nikolic's comments insulted the survivors. He elaborated "the denial of genocide in Srebrenica will not pave the way for co-operation and reconciliation in the region, but on the contrary may cause fresh misunderstandings and tensions. "[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-Guardian-46) Catherine Ashton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Ashton), foreign policy chief of the European Union, condemned his comments and stated that "the EU strongly rejects any intention to rewrite history."[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-TWP-47) The United States State Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_State_Department) deplored Nikolić's statement and considered them unfounded and counterproductive.[48] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-48)
On 25 April 2013, Nikolić apologised for the crimes committed by any individual in the name of Serbia and the Serbian people. He also asked for forgiveness for Serbia for the crime committed in Srebrenica.[49] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-BBC_apology-49)[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-Al_Jazeera_apology-50)[51] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-51) The apology came after Nikolić was criticised during the presidential election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_presidential_election,_2012) in 2012 for denying that 'there was no genocide in Srebrenica', although the act has been accepted as a genocide by his predecessor Boris Tadić (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Tadi%C4%87).[49] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-BBC_apology-49) However, the news was not fully accepted in the media in Bosnia and Herzegovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina) and Nikolić was said to have not still recognised the massacre of Srebrenica as genocide.[50]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-Al_Jazeera_apology-50)




Still has not apologized for the crimes committed against Albanians.



(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Nikoli%C4%87#cite_note-Al_Jazeera_apology-50)

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 17:39
There was an armed struggle by Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia.
ll against Serbia!

All are guilty, only Serbs are innocent.Some example of Serbian innocence:
Arkan the transformation:
Before
http://www.vreme.com/g/images/906970_22-55.jpg
After
http://www.vreme.com/g/images/906970_22-28.jpg

The politician
http://www.vreme.com/g/images/906970_22-57.jpg

And his guys

http://www.vreme.com/g/images/906970_22-34.jpg
http://www.vreme.com/g/images/906970_23-03.jpg
The wedding of the national serbian hero
http://www.vreme.com/g/images/906970_22-16.jpg

With some members of Greenpeace, called Arkan's Tigers, during a campaign for the protection of Tigers settlement.
http://www.monitor.hr/jutarnji/1999/04/15/arkan.jpg

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 18:04
And the end of the "hero".

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Arkanov_grob.jpg

LeBrok
17-09-14, 18:06
Ncncncq, they hit themselfe.
Yours was a punch below the belt, dude!

You have stay in the middle, you are an moderator.
P.S.
I have made you this question:
What are the features that define that a certain group of people constitute an ethnos?

Is this:
Your words:
“We can say that although linguistically Northern Macedonia changed a lot, but there is overwhelming genetic continuity with ancient Macedonians or Greeks, if you will. Their diet is close to Greeks, and similar music, ethnic cloths and many customs”.?

As long as you don't learn or believe in genetics we have nothing to discuss. You'll be always ultra nationalistic Albanian seeing the world through a prism of hatfull feeling to all your neighbors. Actually not much different from many others coming to such threads venting their nationalistic insecurities, and showing neighbors how much better they are.

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 18:17
As long as you don't learn or believe in genetics we have nothing to discuss. You'll be always ultra nationalistic Albanian seeing the world through a prism of hatfull feeling to all your neighbors.

I am not an ultra nationalistic, and i am not hating nobody.
The reason why i am registred member here is because this guys, Ike, Garrick, Yetos, and others duped with their posts and insulted my people and my country. All these things you see and do not react by becoming part of this lousy game.I do the honor this forum with my presence. Find me another person here, that to protect his ideas has used so much material and so many resources in this forum. Amd i had never used albanian sources, not because this did not exist, but i was sure that at the end i will be accused for nationalism.





So i do not accept your charges.

LeBrok
17-09-14, 18:19
I am not an ultra nationalistic, and i am not hating nobody.
The reason why i am registred member here is because this guys, Ike, Garrick, Yetos, and others duped with their posts and insulted my people and my country. All these things you see and do not react by becoming part of this lousy game.I do the honor this forum with my presence. Find me another person here, that to protect his ideas has used so much material and so many resources in this forum. Amd i had never used albanian sources, not because this did not exist, but i was sure that at the end i will be accused for nationalism.





So i do not accept your charges.
Actually not much different from many others coming to such threads venting their nationalistic insecurities, and showing neighbors how much better they are from them.

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 18:23
Confirme your allegations with facts and exclude me from the forum if they are real.
Otherwise ask for forgive to Albanians.

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 18:27
We should send our post to you to get your approval before posting?
In comunism this was called autocensure.

Yetos
17-09-14, 20:14
ΜΟΣΧΟΠΟΛΙΣ ΚΟΡΥΤΣΑ ΒΟΥΛΓΑΡΕΛΙ

moscopolje korce Bulgarets

the story of what Greeks call ArbantoVlachs ΑρβαντοΒλαχοι

from 1769 Albanians try to Albanize the place
the place was so industrial and so educated that everybody like it,
oit was the biggest industrial are area of balkans at 1770
the Aromanian kingdom or the the Aromanian Mystra were alternative names,

from 1770 Albanians systematically attcked and pillaged it cause did not pay taxes to Albanian Hodzas as Quran was ordering but payed religious taxes to Ottomans
that continued even at WW1 and WW2


http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608055013052252521&pid=15.1&H=153&W=160

SALI BETKA the Albanian Hero,
his contribution was to burn down and islamize and albanize by force all the Greeks, Aromani, and Slavs (Slavic Makedonians)
Whow what a hero, burning houses in his country and Albanize by force Aromani and Slavs, who were unarmed,



WW2
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.607992791866607589&pid=15.1

Albanian party
cooperation with NAZI and SS

they burned 2 times Moschopolis Korce Bulgarets and Girokaster
cause they did not Albanized and muslimized

Nice Party.

your history and your expansion.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
17-09-14, 20:19
Precast conclusions fragmentary documentation of documents not convince anyone. @bardylYou're a racist. You are the enemy of your homeland and your friends. (!) Is that a true or not: The foto with the happy soldier occupy my territorial state of origin, Achelloos valley / Agrafa. The place you are pointing it is and it was always Greece and it will always be Hellas. (Not illyrian, check your patriot Aristo.) "...αυτή δ' 'εστίν η περί Δωδώνην και Άχελλώο [...]ώκουν γάρ οί Σελλοί ενταύθα και οι καλούμενοι τότε μέν Γραικοί,νυν δε Έλληνες / / Aristotle (Meteora 352b) What are you trying to prove? Change THE PHOTO AND Ι DEMAND YOU FOR A SORRY

ΠΑΝΑΞ
17-09-14, 20:37
You are a metasoviet post-imperialist... without -Besa (Alb.)Souvlaki Pitta without tzatziki... we dont bite these!

Ike
17-09-14, 20:47
Hahaha Ike and his LaLa land. I lived in Yugoslavia, we had cases when 14 year olds were sent to Goli Otok. Everything was done under the sheet, so the world would not know. We were heavily in debts, and we just realized that after Titos death. It was a beautiful dream while it lasted. Life under socialism was not better, at least not the one that was created by slavic nations and imported by others. In Albania and Romania was one of the harshest, Bulgaria was not better either. In YU it was all milk and honey for the ruling class and their minions. The rest were equally poor.

We were not heavily in debts. We were 14 billion EUR in debt in the moment of fallout. IMF said that they won't give us more money, and US said that they will give money only to the republics if they depart.
Eventually, IMF did open safe doors. We were 96 billions 2008 (http://static.politika.co.rs/uploads/rubrike/52904/i/2/dugovi-sfrj.jpg) and more than 115 billions in 2010 (http://www.b92.net/biz/vesti/region.php?yyyy=2010&mm=06&dd=10&nav_id=437677). God knows where those numbers are now. It just shows that they were not serious in 1990, and that they only paused credits to emphasize economic crises which was use as a pretext for the violent fallout.

Life was extremely better.

Ike
17-09-14, 21:13
There was an armed struggle by Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia.
ll against Serbia!

No there wasn't. Why do you even try to talk about the things you're not informed about. You lived in Albania, it's understandable that you don't know much about Croat-Serbian relationships. Why would you? It's no shame.


Still has not apologized for the crimes committed against Albanians.
Much worst thing that was done to Albanians was done by ethnic Albanian traitors, spies, fascists, drug and organ dealers themselves. First get rid of those, and then we can talk.



All are guilty, only Serbs are innocent.
No they aren't. Don't speak nonsense, I've never said that. They are just as guilty, and they may be even more guilty for the war crimes that happened, but only time will show, if some legitimate Court gets it's hands on it. Sadly, the chances for that are almost none because they would first have to prosecute whole NATO headquarters, cause they were the one who started the crisis against Milosevich, who didn't wanted to surrender his monetary control.



With some members of Greenpeace, called Arkan's Tigers, during a campaign for the protection of Tigers settlement.
Yeah, Arkan was a war criminal and now he is dead, or he'd be jailed. Although you have to note that neither he or any of his friends made it to the government, unlike in Kosovo where mass murderers are walking freely in government offices.



Confirme your allegations with facts and exclude me from the forum if they are real.
Otherwise ask for forgive to Albanians.
You're a hard core nationalist. I don't know if one can get closer to a poster kid nationalist. Everything you do on this forum is bashing your neighbours. It was people like you, pushed by foreign interests, who ignited the fire on Kosovo and led the region into a dead-end story, making people lives miserable and future bleak at best.

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 21:35
No there wasn't. Why do you even try to talk about the things you're not informed about. You lived in Albania, it's understandable that you don't know much about Croat-Serbian relationships. Why would you? It's no shame.


Much worst thing that was done to Albanians was done by ethnic Albanian traitors, spies, fascists, drug and organ dealers themselves. First get rid of those, and then we can talk.



No they aren't. Don't speak nonsense, I've never said that. They are just as guilty, and they may be even more guilty for the war crimes that happened, but only time will show, if some legitimate Court gets it's hands on it. Sadly, the chances for that are almost none because they would first have to prosecute whole NATO headquarters, cause they were the one who started the crisis against Milosevich, who didn't wanted to surrender his monetary control.



Yeah, Arkan was a war criminal and now he is dead, or he'd be jailed. Although you have to note that neither he or any of his friends made it to the government, unlike in Kosovo where mass murderers are walking freely in government offices.



You're a hard core nationalist. I don't know if one can get closer to a poster kid nationalist. Everything you do on this forum is bashing your neighbours. It was people like you, pushed by foreign interests, who ignited the fire on Kosovo and led the region into a dead-end story, making people lives miserable and future bleak at best.

Can you answer to this:
So, I am making an question: who is the most important book for an comunist, the Bible Communism?

About other we can discuss all the day and night here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=439209#post439209

Garrick
17-09-14, 22:12
Wow, this is a punch below the belt, dude!

No, LeBrok, you know that I love discuss with you, an it is always constructional discussion.
And you know, anyone who have sympathy for Tito and Partisan movement can not be a nationalist.
And Tito fought against all forms of nationalism, in Yugoslavia main principle was: Brotherhood and Unity.
And anthem of Yugoslavia was Pan-Slavic: "Hey Sloveni".
And this theme about socialist states: Poland, Slovakia, Yugoslavia etc. is very good because from this perspective we can look better that part of our past.

But new time bring new problems, we can not close our eyes to these problems, they are real.
We, members of the European Balkan nations, have a special feeling for these kinds of problems because our people lived over 500 years conquered by the Ottoman empire.

Maybe, you think you are far from this kind of problem, but do not tell twice.
Look at this map:

http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/02011/map2_2011442a.jpg


New Islamic Caliphate according to ISIS will be on the borders of Poland.

You can see the book of Patrick Cockburn:

The Jihadis Return

http://www.orbooks.com/catalog/jihadis-return/

Today, as renowned Middle East commentator Patrick Cockburn sets out in this explosive new book, that’s all changed. Exploiting the missteps of the West’s wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, as well as its misjudgments in relation to Syria and the uprisings of the Arab Spring, jihadist organizations, of which ISIS is the most important, are swiftly expanding. They now control a geographical territory greater in size than Britain or Michigan, stretching from the Sunni heartlands in the north and west of Iraq through a broad swath of north-east Syria. On the back of their capture of Mosul and much of northern Iraq in June 2014, the leader of ISIS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, has been declared the head of a new caliphate that demands the allegiance of all Muslims.


The secular, democratic politics that were supposedly at the fore of the Arab Spring have been buried by the return of the jihadis. As the Islamic State announced by ISIS confronts its enemies, the West will once again become a target. Cockburn cites an observer in southern Turkey interviewing Syrian jihadi rebels early in 2014 and finding that “without exception they all expressed enthusiasm for the 9/11 attacks and hoped the same thing would happen in Europe as well as the US.”


...
Balkan Christian nation lived over 500 years under Sharia Islamic Low. And they are afraid.

...
Nobody here has anything against Albania.

But Greater Albania or Natural Albania, nevertheless, occupies big parts of FRY Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Greece.

And things are more complex.

Because in that creation can be applied Sharia law for members another nations, Atheists, Christian people etc.

And it is only one phase toward new Ottoman Empire on the Balkans and beyond, or Oropba.
...
I believe in goodness and human nature is basically good. I'm optimist for mankind, people have the power and ability to overcome problems and difficulties. I have a great opinion of the peoples of Africa, Middle East and Asia, and generally about people. Mankind is general has a postive energy. I am convincied that when for thirty-forty years ago we discuss, that we will talk about completely different things, it is possible about flights to other planets, and certainly you would like visit the Moon. Mars and so on, I too.

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 22:21
@ Ike& Garrick
I don’t want to lose much time with you guys. I want to stay at two interesting moments.
First this theory of 100.000 albanian who emigrate to Serbia is very curios and I insiste that you elaborate better this theory, because never heard before.
Second:
Your words
“But the biggest problem is to restore the Middle Ages, in Yugoslavia was big progress, but today, examples:

ISIS fighter from Kosovo praises jihad in Syria
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archiv...er_from_ko.php (http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2013/10/isis_fighter_from_ko.php)

Albanians Fighting for ISIS earn $65/day, come from Middle Class Families
http://europenews.dk/en/node/83259

ISIS Albanian Mujahideen celebrating the liberation of Mosul in Iraq
http://tune.pk/video/3933167/isis-al...-mosul-in-irak (http://tune.pk/video/3933167/isis-albanian-mujahideen-celebrating-the-liberation-of-mosul-in-irak)”

Where did you owe this article, LeBrok?
You should note that there are people who read what we write and you can not mock the intelligence of readers
The human being first observes and then draws conclusions . With a simple observation, you are trying to confuse the discussion about communism, Albanians and Serbs and Islamic fundamentalism.
I am willing to discuss all three, but let's share from each other. Let`s don’t make confusion.



Conclusion


Regarding the discussion on the Albanians and the Serbs let pass here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=439209#post439209
I have invited you different time , this time i challenge you both and others. Enough with bored.
Let's put on the table and see who has the greatest.

Yugoslavia was destroyed by you Serbs.
Milosevic sent you four times with tanks and you come back four times with tractors.

About communism i have expressed my opinion about the issue.
My words:
“Practical communism, implemented was a creature of Slavic Orthodoxy”.
And i am ready to discuss with you. But before that i want to be clear your intellectual level is not the same as the Yetos.
So, I am making an question: who is the most important book for an comunist, the Bible Communism?

P.S.
You should not refer Yetos. There are three weeks and he still today could not tell me one name of a greek hero of Greek revolution. According to my information he have an problem of health. He can not stay more than 5 min sit in a chair.

I am still here.

Regarding the discussion on the Albanians and the Serbs let pass here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=439209#post439209
I have invited you different time , this time i challenge you both and others. Enough with bored.
Let's put on the table and see who has the greatest.
So, I am making an question: who is the most important book for an comunist, the Bible Communism?

Ike
17-09-14, 22:52
So, I am making an question: who is the most important book for an comunist, the Bible Communism?

Are you regarding to The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital?

Yetos
17-09-14, 23:14
ΜΟΣΧΟΠΟΛΙΣ ΚΟΡΥΤΣΑ ΒΟΥΛΓΑΡΕΛΙ

moscopolje korce bulgarets

the story of what greeks call arbantovlachs ΑρβαντοΒλαχοι

from 1769 albanians try to albanize the place
the place was so industrial and so educated that everybody like it,
oit was the biggest industrial are area of balkans at 1770
the aromanian kingdom or the the aromanian mystra were alternative names,

from 1770 albanians systematically attcked and pillaged it cause did not pay taxes to albanian hodzas as quran was ordering but payed religious taxes to ottomans
that continued even at ww1 and ww2


http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=hn.608055013052252521&pid=15.1&h=153&w=160

sali betka the albanian hero,
his contribution was to burn down and islamize and albanize by force all the greeks, aromani, and slavs (slavic makedonians)
whow what a hero, burning houses in his country and albanize by force aromani and slavs, who were unarmed,



ww2
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=hn.607992791866607589&pid=15.1

albanian party
cooperation with nazi and ss

they burned 2 times moschopolis korce bulgarets and girokaster
cause they did not albanized and muslimized

nice party.

Your history and your expansion.


your hero bardylic

Garrick
18-09-14, 02:15
your hero bardylic

Nothing has changed.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/file/show//Images/Albania/mujahedin-Albanians.jpg

Modern Albanian jihadists (in Syria)


A lot of non-Muslim in Syria and Iraq were hurted.

Small communities that have lived for centuries.

...
And even Pope is not secured:

Albanian jihadists May Assassinate Pope Francis

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/26105/53/

...
Again, I'm not nationalist, but how to ignore plans about Greater Albania, new Ottoman empire and jihadists when they are on our doorstep.

Ike
18-09-14, 02:33
That is becoming a serious regional problem. Communists were not quite fond of religion, and this could never happen in their times. This is the product of democracy, and I don't believe Western countries were stupid to not know what would become if the system that works for them was forced upon others. I think they deliberately insisted on it, not because they were concerned bout democracy but because they wanted this outcome. They simply need destabilized regions, and that's the sole reason they fought so intensively against communism here.

LeBrok
18-09-14, 03:20
That is becoming a serious regional problem. Communists were not quite fond of religion, and this could never happen in their times. This is the product of democracy, and I don't believe Western countries were stupid to not know what would become if the system that works for them was forced upon others. I think they deliberately insisted on it, not because they were concerned bout democracy but because they wanted this outcome. They simply need destabilized regions, and that's the sole reason they fought so intensively against communism here.
Conspiracy again. Nothing happens without secret services, ha? I had no idea that everything people plan and do is successful in this world.
This mess couldn't have come from simple incompetence of people, unexpected events, inability of people to analyze complicated system as global politic is, conflict of interests of global power centers, or simple religious propaganda coupled with young boys eagerness to fight a war. No, no, no, it is the CIA and rotten West again, lol.

Ike
18-09-14, 04:06
This mess couldn't have come from simple incompetence of people, unexpected events, inability of people to analyze complicated system as global politic is, conflict of interests of global power centers, or simple religious propaganda coupled with young boys eagerness to fight a war. No, no, no, it is the CIA and rotten West again, lol.

I agree that our military leaders showed incompetence and were not ready to protect Constitution in the time when it was most needed.
I agree that those were very unexpected events for majority of the citizens of Yugoslavia, unlike for the organizers of whole this mess.
I absolutely agree that our secret services showed inability to analyze the depths of horror CIA was ready to sow here, and didn't take the fallout of SSSR seriously.
I agree that a lot of money was input here for nationalistic propaganda that would destabilize the state and open the door for military collision which was kept alive with guns and mercenaries infusions.

LeBrok, you're 100% right. Giving you a plus.

Garrick
18-09-14, 21:49
Conspiracy again. Nothing happens without secret services, ha? I had no idea that everything people plan and do is successful in this world.

You know that I don’t believe in conspiracy theories.
James Bond etc. only in movies.

European values, human rights and freedom are great civilization achievements.
The pride of people of Europe and European civilization.

Unfortunately some parts of Europe were long under the rulers of different views and apprehensions.

While the rest of Europe was developed, European Balkan peoples, especially Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs were under Ottoman Islamic state and Sharia law.
If you want understand this, you have to understand what it means to be non-Muslim under Sharia legal system.

It is not just a second-class citizen, or someone who pays tax for life (jizya), it is someone who has no rights or hope.
Sharia law for non-Muslim has no human rights and freedom, only taxes, obedience and hope for mercy, but rulers can be very arrogant and cruel, and there is no grace, and very tragic and sad fate for non-Muslim.

Balkan Christian nation have a proverb: Islamic judge sues, Islamic judge makes your judgement.
There’s no human rights LeBrok, you’re left to the his mercy and wantonness.
Do not you wish anyone to be in that situation.

Ottoman Empire was an Islamic state, good for Muslims.

Interestingly, what happened to the Albanians, while the Christian peoples of the Balkans, Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs and others, have suffered under Sharia law.
Albanians after a period of polytheism received Christianity and were mostly Roman Catholics.
But when the Ottoman Empire spread and included areas inhabited by ethnic Albanians, it took place something not many expected, what in the book History of Islam writes Thomas Arnold.

For short time, in seventeenth century, for one generation Albanians change religion and converted to Islam in large numbers.
Grandparents or parent could remain Christians, but young Albanians have embraced Islamic religion.
Probably the islamization of Albanians is among the fastest in history, and it was voluntary, and Albanians are probably only ex Roman Catholic nation that has massively embraced Islam.

Converting to Islam Albanians began to enjoy all privileges as Muslims, among other things, to rule over the powerless and the oppressed Christian Balkan peoples.
Albanians have become the spearhead of Jihad and the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans.

If you want to know the fate of the Balkan European nations, it is the best to read about the life of Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs under Islamic Ottoman rule.
When you read a little more you can understand contemporary events and why the European Balkan nations are afraid from Greater Albania (conquer territories four states), a new Ottoman Empire, Oropba, Islamic state and Sharia law.
Unfortenatly Ike was right, creating ISIS and drawing map of the new Caliphate which even includes the territory of Slovakia and Austria (in another occasion I will explain you if you wish to know) introduce fear in the Balkan European nations.

Do not forget, once in eastern Albania and in European part of Turkey lived Bulgarians, now they’re gone, once the entire Aegean coast of Turkey and northern Epirus (today’s south Albania) was inhabited by Greeks, now they’re gone, it was less than 100 years.

Until recently Prizren, Pristina and many other cities are inhabited by Serbs, for example in Pristine 1961 was 35.000 Serbs, after 1999 Serbs in Pristina is 0.
Do you believe that no one has asked for human rights of Greeks when they were expelled by the Turks in 1922, or Serbs who fled big parts of Serbian province Kosovo in 1999.

But I’m an optimist, the wheel of history cannot be turned back, although some men tend to return the Sharia law in Balkans.
So Greater Albania will remain failed idea, as well as the return of Ottoman Empire in the Balkans and new Caliphate, the world is moving forward, and civilizations twenty-first century will find the strength to cope with it, and Europe and the European Balkans people will prosper.
Without nationalism and fundamentalism that are backward, but with modern and advanced insights.

I firmly believe in European unity and power of Europe, Yugoslav slogan “brotherhood and unity” can be good and for Europe, although that does not understand me wrong I have nothing against America, China and other non-Europeans countries, and I believe in human goodness, and think good about the people of Africa, Middle East, Asia etc.
And I tell you for thirty years we will talk about completely different things like flying to the Moon and Mars and the like.

albanopolis
19-09-14, 00:11
You know that I don’t believe in conspiracy theories.
James Bond etc. only in movies.

European values, human rights and freedom are great civilization achievements.
The pride of people of Europe and European civilization.

Unfortunately some parts of Europe were long under the rulers of different views and apprehensions.

While the rest of Europe was developed, European Balkan peoples, especially Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs were under Ottoman Islamic state and Sharia law.
If you want understand this, you have to understand what it means to be non-Muslim under Sharia legal system.

It is not just a second-class citizen, or someone who pays tax for life (jizya), it is someone who has no rights or hope.
Sharia law for non-Muslim has no human rights and freedom, only taxes, obedience and hope for mercy, but rulers can be very arrogant and cruel, and there is no grace, and very tragic and sad fate for non-Muslim.

Balkan Christian nation have a proverb: Islamic judge sues, Islamic judge makes your judgement.
There’s no human rights LeBrok, you’re left to the his mercy and wantonness.
Do not you wish anyone to be in that situation.

Ottoman Empire was an Islamic state, good for Muslims.

Interestingly, what happened to the Albanians, while the Christian peoples of the Balkans, Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs and others, have suffered under Sharia law.
Albanians after a period of polytheism received Christianity and were mostly Roman Catholics.
But when the Ottoman Empire spread and included areas inhabited by ethnic Albanians, it took place something not many expected, what in the book History of Islam writes Thomas Arnold.

For short time, in seventeenth century, for one generation Albanians change religion and converted to Islam in large numbers.
Grandparents or parent could remain Christians, but young Albanians have embraced Islamic religion.
Probably the islamization of Albanians is among the fastest in history, and it was voluntary, and Albanians are probably only ex Roman Catholic nation that has massively embraced Islam.

Converting to Islam Albanians began to enjoy all privileges as Muslims, among other things, to rule over the powerless and the oppressed Christian Balkan peoples.
Albanians have become the spearhead of Jihad and the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans.

If you want to know the fate of the Balkan European nations, it is the best to read about the life of Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs under Islamic Ottoman rule.
When you read a little more you can understand contemporary events and why the European Balkan nations are afraid from Greater Albania (conquer territories four states), a new Ottoman Empire, Oropba, Islamic state and Sharia law.
Unfortenatly Ike was right, creating ISIS and drawing map of the new Caliphate which even includes the territory of Slovakia and Austria (in another occasion I will explain you if you wish to know) introduce fear in the Balkan European nations.

Do not forget, once in eastern Albania and in European part of Turkey lived Bulgarians, now they’re gone, once the entire Aegean coast of Turkey and northern Epirus (today’s south Albania) was inhabited by Greeks, now they’re gone, it was less than 100 years.

Until recently Prizren, Pristina and many other cities are inhabited by Serbs, for example in Pristine 1961 was 35.000 Serbs, after 1999 Serbs in Pristina is 0.
Do you believe that no one has asked for human rights of Greeks when they were expelled by the Turks in 1922, or Serbs who fled big parts of Serbian province Kosovo in 1999.

But I’m an optimist, the wheel of history cannot be turned back, although some men tend to return the Sharia law in Balkans.
So Greater Albania will remain failed idea, as well as the return of Ottoman Empire in the Balkans and new Caliphate, the world is moving forward, and civilizations twenty-first century will find the strength to cope with it, and Europe and the European Balkans people will prosper.
Without nationalism and fundamentalism that are backward, but with modern and advanced insights.

I firmly believe in European unity and power of Europe, Yugoslav slogan “brotherhood and unity” can be good and for Europe, although that does not understand me wrong I have nothing against America, China and other non-Europeans countries, and I believe in human goodness, and think good about the people of Africa, Middle East, Asia etc.
And I tell you for thirty years we will talk about completely different things like flying to the Moon and Mars and the like.

Albania's muslin population according to,the last census is: Sunny Muslims about 57%, Bektashi muslin about 3% and the rest are Christians or Atheist.
My educated guess is that there are a lot of agnostics in Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia's Albanian population.
So among 60% of the population who declared themselves Muslim they did not say they are practicing Muslims,
they said they come from a Muslim family. Same is true for christian Albanians.
It was not true that Albania was the only christian country that become Muslim.
There were around 30% of Greek population who also become Muslim.
Athens, at the down of Greek revolution was Muslim majority. The only Christians in Athens were Arvanites.
They passed a law that forced all Muslim Greeks to convert to Christianity.
When I say Muslim Greeks I don't mean Turk colons in Greece, I mean ethnic Greeks that Greek was the only language they knew.
So, its unfair to say that Albanians were the only one becoming Muslim.

albanopolis
19-09-14, 00:30
You know that I don’t believe in conspiracy theories.
James Bond etc. only in movies.

European values, human rights and freedom are great civilization achievements.
The pride of people of Europe and European civilization.

Unfortunately some parts of Europe were long under the rulers of different views and apprehensions.

While the rest of Europe was developed, European Balkan peoples, especially Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs were under Ottoman Islamic state and Sharia law.
If you want understand this, you have to understand what it means to be non-Muslim under Sharia legal system.

It is not just a second-class citizen, or someone who pays tax for life (jizya), it is someone who has no rights or hope.
Sharia law for non-Muslim has no human rights and freedom, only taxes, obedience and hope for mercy, but rulers can be very arrogant and cruel, and there is no grace, and very tragic and sad fate for non-Muslim.

Balkan Christian nation have a proverb: Islamic judge sues, Islamic judge makes your judgement.
There’s no human rights LeBrok, you’re left to the his mercy and wantonness.
Do not you wish anyone to be in that situation.

Ottoman Empire was an Islamic state, good for Muslims.

Interestingly, what happened to the Albanians, while the Christian peoples of the Balkans, Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs and others, have suffered under Sharia law.
Albanians after a period of polytheism received Christianity and were mostly Roman Catholics.
But when the Ottoman Empire spread and included areas inhabited by ethnic Albanians, it took place something not many expected, what in the book History of Islam writes Thomas Arnold.

For short time, in seventeenth century, for one generation Albanians change religion and converted to Islam in large numbers.
Grandparents or parent could remain Christians, but young Albanians have embraced Islamic religion.
Probably the islamization of Albanians is among the fastest in history, and it was voluntary, and Albanians are probably only ex Roman Catholic nation that has massively embraced Islam.

Converting to Islam Albanians began to enjoy all privileges as Muslims, among other things, to rule over the powerless and the oppressed Christian Balkan peoples.
Albanians have become the spearhead of Jihad and the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans.

If you want to know the fate of the Balkan European nations, it is the best to read about the life of Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs under Islamic Ottoman rule.
When you read a little more you can understand contemporary events and why the European Balkan nations are afraid from Greater Albania (conquer territories four states), a new Ottoman Empire, Oropba, Islamic state and Sharia law.
Unfortenatly Ike was right, creating ISIS and drawing map of the new Caliphate which even includes the territory of Slovakia and Austria (in another occasion I will explain you if you wish to know) introduce fear in the Balkan European nations.

Do not forget, once in eastern Albania and in European part of Turkey lived Bulgarians, now they’re gone, once the entire Aegean coast of Turkey and northern Epirus (today’s south Albania) was inhabited by Greeks, now they’re gone, it was less than 100 years.

Until recently Prizren, Pristina and many other cities are inhabited by Serbs, for example in Pristine 1961 was 35.000 Serbs, after 1999 Serbs in Pristina is 0.
Do you believe that no one has asked for human rights of Greeks when they were expelled by the Turks in 1922, or Serbs who fled big parts of Serbian province Kosovo in 1999.

But I’m an optimist, the wheel of history cannot be turned back, although some men tend to return the Sharia law in Balkans.
So Greater Albania will remain failed idea, as well as the return of Ottoman Empire in the Balkans and new Caliphate, the world is moving forward, and civilizations twenty-first century will find the strength to cope with it, and Europe and the European Balkans people will prosper.
Without nationalism and fundamentalism that are backward, but with modern and advanced insights.

I firmly believe in European unity and power of Europe, Yugoslav slogan “brotherhood and unity” can be good and for Europe, although that does not understand me wrong I have nothing against America, China and other non-Europeans countries, and I believe in human goodness, and think good about the people of Africa, Middle East, Asia etc.
And I tell you for thirty years we will talk about completely different things like flying to the Moon and Mars and the like.
You either lack a total understanding of Albanian history or you are trying to distort it.
There has never been Greeks in Epiros;
Epiros (I am using Greek pronunciation of the word) Was an Illyrian province, as it was Dardania( Kosovo) or Dalmacia
If you are in a mission to distort Albanian history go ahead and do it, but you are doing a disservice to forum readers who are not interested in purposely deformed information.
If it makes you feel good do your thing, but its more honorable to state in a correct ways historical facts.

Yetos
19-09-14, 00:59
You either lack a total understanding of Albanian history or you are trying to distort it.
There has never been Greeks in Epiros;
Epiros (I am using Greek pronunciation of the word) Was an Illyrian province, as it was Dardania( Kosovo) or Dalmacia
If you are in a mission to distort Albanian history go ahead and do it, but you are doing a disservice to forum readers who are not interested in purposely deformed information.
If it makes you feel good do your thing, but its more honorable to state in a correct ways historical facts.

Epirus was is and will continue to be Archegonos Hellas.

albanopolis
19-09-14, 01:16
Epirus was is and will continue to be Archegonos Hellas.
Yes part of it unfortunately was grabbed by Greeks in the turn of century.
Will it be recovered or not remained to be seen. We need to keep the flame alive.
By the way I am an Epiriot and I am deeply offended to call me Greek.

Ike
19-09-14, 01:30
Albania's muslin population according to,the last census is: Sunny Muslims about 57%, Bektashi muslin about 3% and the rest are Christians or Atheist.
My educated guess is that there are a lot of agnostics in Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia's Albanian population.
So among 60% of the population who declared themselves Muslim they did not say they are practicing Muslims,
they said they come from a Muslim family. Same is true for christian Albanians.
It was not true that Albania was the only christian country that become Muslim.
There were around 30% of Greek population who also become Muslim.
Athens, at the down of Greek revolution was Muslim majority. The only Christians in Athens were Arvanites.
They passed a law that forced all Muslim Greeks to convert to Christianity.
When I say Muslim Greeks I don't mean Turk colons in Greece, I mean ethnic Greeks that Greek was the only language they knew.
So, its unfair to say that Albanians were the only one becoming Muslim.

He did not say only Christian, he said Roman Catholic, and he added probably. So no need to be alarmed.

albanopolis
19-09-14, 01:30
Epirus was is and will continue to be Archegonos Hellas.
We have discussed this topic in other forums
If you want, open another thread not to ruin the aim this thread was created
I have no desire to participate in it, but maybe someone else will be willing to debate the topic.
Please do not provoke, like you are doing with the above expression. It does not matter what you and me are saying.
i do not believe geek historians even when they are telling the truth which happens really rare.
The only history I read is the one that English speakers or German speakers write.
Not because they own the truth but most of the time they are liberated by nationalist lies of Ballkan pseudo historians.

Yetos
19-09-14, 02:24
We have discussed this topic in other forums
If you want, open another thread not to ruin the aim this thread was created
I have no desire to participate in it, but maybe someone else will be willing to debate the topic.
Please do not provoke, like you are doing with the above expression. It does not matter what you and me are saying.
i do not believe geek historians even when they are telling the truth which happens really rare.
The only history I read is the one that English speakers or German speakers write.
Not because they own the truth but most of the time they are liberated by nationalist lies of Ballkan pseudo historians.

you have already destroy it,

what connection had that thread with hate against greece, greeks and your Pseudo-Historia/hysteria, and you mention lies about Greeks,


is it part of the thread the lies you write Greeks?


Albania's muslin population according to,the last census is: Sunny Muslims about 57%, Bektashi muslin about 3% and the rest are Christians or Atheist.
My educated guess is that there are a lot of agnostics in Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia's Albanian population.
So among 60% of the population who declared themselves Muslim they did not say they are practicing Muslims,
they said they come from a Muslim family. Same is true for christian Albanians.
It was not true that Albania was the only christian country that become Muslim.
There were around 30% of Greek population who also become Muslim.
Athens, at the down of Greek revolution was Muslim majority. The only Christians in Athens were Arvanites.
They passed a law that forced all Muslim Greeks to convert to Christianity.
When I say Muslim Greeks I don't mean Turk colons in Greece, I mean ethnic Greeks that Greek was the only language they knew.
So, its unfair to say that Albanians were the only one becoming Muslim.

Arbanites who Arbanites,
in census of 1879 not even 50 years after revolution were 60 000 max at 1 600 000 pop, means max 0.04%
today by ethnologue 2011 are estimated 10 000 and max 150 000 from ancestor, which is 0.015%
comparing that After 1912 population of Greece doubled (Makedonia Thrace Epirus Dodecanese etc refuggees) is normal number then and today

all the rest are crup,

before WW2 there was 20% of Albanians Orthodox today only 7% what happened to them?
you burn their villages to the ground for who knows what time.
there was 10% Catholics which still are 10% catholics
there was 75% Muslim which drop to 59% cause most do not declare religion or declare atheists (ex-communist party!!!)

don't blame me,
you already destroy the thread by injuring your hate and poison and lies

if you want I post photo of that census.

Now can you tell under which law Greek muslims forced to baptize Orthodox?
or you seen it in Albanian TV?
the Greek revolution has 2 major words, Μεμετ (mehmet, mohatet muslim, Islam follower)
and Giaour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giaour

all the rest you say is like documents about UFO, only even in thread about Poles Czechs and Slovacs you inject your poison.
I know it hearts that your ancestors denied ethnicity and religion for Vallavan's Pasha and his wealth

LeBrok
19-09-14, 04:42
European values, human rights and freedom are great civilization achievements.
The pride of people of Europe and European civilization. Glad to hear that.


Unfortunately some parts of Europe were long under the rulers of different views and apprehensions.

While the rest of Europe was developed, European Balkan peoples, especially Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs were under Ottoman Islamic state and Sharia law.
If you want understand this, you have to understand what it means to be non-Muslim under Sharia legal system.

It is not just a second-class citizen, or someone who pays tax for life (jizya), it is someone who has no rights or hope.
Sharia law for non-Muslim has no human rights and freedom, only taxes, obedience and hope for mercy, but rulers can be very arrogant and cruel, and there is no grace, and very tragic and sad fate for non-Muslim.

Balkan Christian nation have a proverb: Islamic judge sues, Islamic judge makes your judgement.
There’s no human rights LeBrok, you’re left to the his mercy and wantonness.
Do not you wish anyone to be in that situation.

Ottoman Empire was an Islamic state, good for Muslims.

Interestingly, what happened to the Albanians, while the Christian peoples of the Balkans, Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs and others, have suffered under Sharia law.
Albanians after a period of polytheism received Christianity and were mostly Roman Catholics.
But when the Ottoman Empire spread and included areas inhabited by ethnic Albanians, it took place something not many expected, what in the book History of Islam writes Thomas Arnold.

Converting to Islam Albanians began to enjoy all privileges as Muslims, among other things, to rule over the powerless and the oppressed Christian Balkan peoples.
Albanians have become the spearhead of Jihad and the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans.

If you want to know the fate of the Balkan European nations, it is the best to read about the life of Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs under Islamic Ottoman rule.
When you read a little more you can understand contemporary events and why the European Balkan nations are afraid from Greater Albania (conquer territories four states), a new Ottoman Empire, Oropba, Islamic state and Sharia law.
Unfortenatly Ike was right, creating ISIS and drawing map of the new Caliphate which even includes the territory of Slovakia and Austria (in another occasion I will explain you if you wish to know) introduce fear in the Balkan European nations.

Do not forget, once in eastern Albania and in European part of Turkey lived Bulgarians, now they’re gone, once the entire Aegean coast of Turkey and northern Epirus (today’s south Albania) was inhabited by Greeks, now they’re gone, it was less than 100 years.
I never meant that we shouldn't be vigilant and should stand on guard for our freedoms, democracy and civilization in general. It doesn't matter for me if the thread comes from ISIS, other muslim terrorists, christian fundamentalists, Spanish Inquisition or Putin's Russia.
Having said that, I don't think we should be too worried about Albanian Muslims or few of them turning jihadists. There are just few among few million of normal and tolerant Albanians. Such rogue elements exist not only in Albania, and I'm sure we could find few Serbian volunteers helping Russian separatists in Ukraine. Ike would go too, if only he wasn't chained to his computer and internet. ;) There are German revisionists, and Russian nazi, but they are few and between. Not enough to change the world and take our freedoms away. We should talk about them but without a panic.
What I'm saying is that you are demonizing Albanian Muslims way too much and blaming them for historical cruelty over Balkans. I'm sure the new generation of Albanians has nothing to do with sins of grandfathers.



For short time, in seventeenth century, for one generation Albanians change religion and converted to Islam in large numbers.
Grandparents or parent could remain Christians, but young Albanians have embraced Islamic religion.
Probably the islamization of Albanians is among the fastest in history, and it was voluntary, and Albanians are probably only ex Roman Catholic nation that has massively embraced Islam.It might mean that Albanians are not very religious in general, and didn't care much in what religion they should live in. They embraced it fast when there was right climate for it, and they can drop it fast when not needed. This is a good sign, and fundamentalists shouldn't be able to find much of fertile ground there. Another good sign is huge participation of Albanians on Eupedia, traveling the world, speaking english and talking about many subjects but how great islam is (unlike occasional posters from Arab countries talking only about their great religion.




I firmly believe in European unity and power of Europe, Yugoslav slogan “brotherhood and unity” can be good and for Europe, although that does not understand me wrong I have nothing against America, China and other non-Europeans countries, and I believe in human goodness, and think good about the people of Africa, Middle East, Asia etc. I'm optimistic too, and giving a chance people will show mostly their good side.

LeBrok
19-09-14, 04:59
No, LeBrok, you know that I love discuss with you, an it is always constructional discussion.
And you know, anyone who have sympathy for Tito and Partisan movement can not be a nationalist.


...
Nobody here has anything against Albania.

But Greater Albania or Natural Albania, nevertheless, occupies big parts of FRY Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Greece.

And things are more complex.

Because in that creation can be applied Sharia law for members another nations, Atheists, Christian people etc.

And it is only one phase toward new Ottoman Empire on the Balkans and beyond, or Oropba.
...
I believe in goodness and human nature is basically good. I'm optimist for mankind, people have the power and ability to overcome problems and difficulties. I have a great opinion of the peoples of Africa, Middle East and Asia, and generally about people. Mankind is general has a postive energy. I am convincied that when for thirty-forty years ago we discuss, that we will talk about completely different things, it is possible about flights to other planets, and certainly you would like visit the Moon. Mars and so on, I too.

What I meant was that you suddenly jumped into religion fundamentalist subject just to degrade opponent, even though the discussion was about something else. This was the hit below the belt.

Perandor
19-09-14, 06:58
Interestingly, what happened to the Albanians, while the Christian peoples of the Balkans, Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs and others, have suffered under Sharia law.
Albanians after a period of polytheism received Christianity and were mostly Roman Catholics.
But when the Ottoman Empire spread and included areas inhabited by ethnic Albanians, it took place something not many expected, what in the book History of Islam writes Thomas Arnold.

For short time, in seventeenth century, for one generation Albanians change religion and converted to Islam in large numbers.
Grandparents or parent could remain Christians, but young Albanians have embraced Islamic religion.
Probably the islamization of Albanians is among the fastest in history, and it was voluntary, and Albanians are probably only ex Roman Catholic nation that has massively embraced Islam.

Converting to Islam Albanians began to enjoy all privileges as Muslims, among other things, to rule over the powerless and the oppressed Christian Balkan peoples.
Albanians have become the spearhead of Jihad and the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans.

If you want to know the fate of the Balkan European nations, it is the best to read about the life of Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs under Islamic Ottoman rule.
When you read a little more you can understand contemporary events and why the European Balkan nations are afraid from Greater Albania (conquer territories four states), a new Ottoman Empire, Oropba, Islamic state and Sharia law.
Unfortenatly Ike was right, creating ISIS and drawing map of the new Caliphate which even includes the territory of Slovakia and Austria (in another occasion I will explain you if you wish to know) introduce fear in the Balkan European nations.

Do not forget, once in eastern Albania and in European part of Turkey lived Bulgarians, now they’re gone, once the entire Aegean coast of Turkey and northern Epirus (today’s south Albania) was inhabited by Greeks, now they’re gone, it was less than 100 years.

There was never any mass conversion of Albanians to Islam, at least not anymore then there was a mass conversion of Greeks and Serbs. However the indifference of Albanians to the Muslim population compared to the Greeks and Serbs who forced Orthodoxy and constantly exchanged populations with Turkey to preserve their homogeneity, combined with the assimilation of many Orthodox Albanians in neighboring lands have yielded the religious distribution that we see today. That's the end of it.

The Ottoman Empire, whether you like it or not, was fairly tolerant when it came to religious views. This is not my claim, this is something historians more or less agree on. The Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs certainly had it better during the empire than the Albanians did. Were you ever prohibited from teaching your language? No you were not.

I understand that the separation of religion from ethnicity is a very baffling concept to you, but this is what we believe in. The idea of Greater Albania is disturbing to neighbors and this is understandable, but it does not stand on any religious ground. Purely ethnic. The Ottoman Empire is dead and it will stay so, of course the same should be said about the Byzantine Empire. ISIS is just a glorified gang that can be put down easily as long as there is will. There is certainly no sympathy for them where I come from. The radical elements are always there, but hey, why don't you look at your own country? I'm sure you will find them there too.

The Bulgarians are still there, there is a village near my town where the language is still preserved. But as is to be expected, populations assimilate faster when separated from their home country. The Greeks of Epirus are also still there, in small numbers as they always were despite what they like to pretend. Of course when your religion is your ethnicity then its easy to squeeze a lot of people in the same bag. All minorities in Albania have lived in peace and have not been disturbed. Not even assimilation has been attempted on them, because Albanians are very fanatical about blood relation and clan ties.

Yetos
19-09-14, 09:47
There was never any mass conversion of Albanians to Islam, at least not anymore then there was a mass conversion of Greeks and Serbs. However the indifference of Albanians to the Muslim population compared to the Greeks and Serbs who forced Orthodoxy and constantly exchanged populations of Turkey to preserve their homogeneity, combined with the assimilation of many Orthodox Albanians in neighboring lands have yielded the religious distribution that we see today. That's the end of it.

The Ottoman Empire, whether you like it or not, was fairly tolerant when it came to religious views. This is not my claim, this is something historians more or less agree on. The Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs certainly had it better during the empire than the Albanians did. Were you ever prohibited from teaching your language? No you were not.

I understand that the separation of religion from ethnicity is a very baffling concept to you, but this is what we believe in. The idea of Greater Albania is disturbing to neighbors and this is understandable, but it does not stand on any religious group. Purely ethnic. The Ottoman Empire is dead and it will stay so, of course the same can be said about the Byzantine Empire. ISIS is just a glorified gang that can be put down easily as long as there is will. There is certainly no sympathy for them where I come from. The radical elements are always there, but hey, why don't you look at your own country? I'm sure you will find them there too.

The Bulgarians are still there, there is a village near my town where the language is still preserve. But as is to be expected, populations assimilate faster when separated from their home country. The Greeks of Epirus are also still there, in small numbers as they always were despite what they like to pretend. Of course when your religion is your ethnicity then its easy to squeeze a lot of people in the same bag. All minorities in Albania have lived in peace and have not been disturbed. Not even assimilation has been attempted on them, because Albanians are very fanatical about blood relation and clan ties.

Yenitsari Blood taxation, was that fair to you?
As muslims you did not gave your males to serve to Ottoman's army

who lived in peace in Albania?
even at WW2 you burn christian villages.
the population of Orthodox, was 20% before WW2 and now is 7%, what happened?
In Durres once spoke Greek, now only in very very south you hear some Greek.

the peace in Albania came after WW2.
no matter I dislike him Hodza and his previous Vlore manage to stabilize their country and turn them to modern values and prosperity.

FBS
19-09-14, 19:55
There is so much hatred in you Yetos that you cannot think clearly. There is one thing that those who claim that know anything about Albanians, should know that being Albanian comes first, religion is sometimes second or even further down the list. I am sick and tired of Garricks repeated attempts to paint us as "filthy" muslims since the hatred is quite transparent. Thinking of your group as of angels and satanizing others is simply not mature.

One cannot simply judge one whole nation based on some criminals and thugs. All nations have their black sheeps. And, please stop spreading your hatred, it has started to become boring.

Yetos
19-09-14, 21:07
There is so much hatred in you Yetos that you cannot think clearly. There is one thing that those who claim that know anything about Albanians, should know that being Albanian comes first, religion is sometimes second or even further down the list. I am sick and tired of Garricks repeated attempts to paint us as "filthy" muslims since the hatred is quite transparent. Thinking of your group as of angels and satanizing others is simply not mature.

One cannot simply judge one whole nation based on some criminals and thugs. All nations have their black sheeps. And, please stop spreading your hatred, it has started to become boring.

you did not said the same to your compatriots, why you referering to me?

Garrick
19-09-14, 22:01
What I meant was that you suddenly jumped into religion fundamentalist subject just to degrade opponent, even though the discussion was about something else.

This is right discussion because communism was objectively in expansion in the XX century, and part of Europe has experienced it. But communism is gone, and the problems of the twenty-first century in Europe are not communism or similar, new time bring new problems.

You think that Islam is religion, yes it is religion but only small part. Islam is political and legal system, sociocultural system, includes all from male-female relations to the organization of the whole society. Islamic thinkers emphasize that Islam is totality, and for life of human being, and for whole society. In this regard communism is not as broad in scope as Islam.

And there is another important thing. Islam is mission. Mission of Islam is: Whole world Caliphate. In other words when one area becomes predominant Muslim, it goes on to other areas, until one day entire world becomes Muslim.

Peoples of East and Southern Europe who lived under socialism, tomorrow can live in Islamic society under Sharia law. And Western Europe too. This is real option. And I'm not someone who intimidate, on the contrary, I'm just saying what is the possible option, and I will explain why, saying arguments. Even, I have nothing against Islam (you could see that I am not anti-communist, though personally I don't like communism). Maybe tomorrow most of Europe embrace Islam as Albanians once did.

We don't know how European society will change. No one is a prophet. And Islam is very real option for Europe of XXI century. (to be continued...).

Ike
19-09-14, 22:59
Such rogue elements exist not only in Albania, and I'm sure we could find few Serbian volunteers helping Russian separatists in Ukraine. Ike would go too, if only he wasn't chained to his computer and internet. ;)

This is exactly what your ambiguous agenda is about. BTW, thanks for mentioning my name, cause I would otherwise skip this valuable demystification.

Ike
19-09-14, 23:09
All minorities in Albania have lived in peace and have not been disturbed. Not even assimilation has been attempted on them, because Albanians are very fanatical about blood relation and clan ties.

Yet, Kaplan Resuli Burovich claims (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?58480-Origins-of-Albanians-living-in-Serbia) very different:


"When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%)."

Perandor
19-09-14, 23:31
A Montenegrin that was sentenced by the communist regime. This person can't possibly be biased.

Ike
19-09-14, 23:35
A Montenegrin that was sentenced by the communist regime. This person can't possibly be biased.

No, no, no, why don't you claim him Albanian as you did before he found out he wasn't one :)

And he was sentenced to 43 years by Albanian communist for saying things that he shouldn't have. And why did Albanian nationalist try to assassinate him couple of times?

Perandor
19-09-14, 23:51
Some people just don't know how to respond to blatant lies so they take the easy way.

Ike
20-09-14, 00:19
Am I to understand that this was a response to my last sentence and that you think that killing Resuli would be an easy way out for those who dislike his words, and have no better way of confronting him?

Perandor
20-09-14, 00:23
Yes you are to understand that.

Garrick
20-09-14, 01:36
That is becoming a serious regional problem.

ISIS Orobpa and Ottoman areas in South/East Europe, what's different. Anyone can view the map. From Bulgaria to Austria and Slovakia.

And when Turkish leader Erdogan says: "Turkey is Kosovo, Kosovo is Turkey" it is same context.

www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/10/erdogan-kosovo-turkey.html

Neo Ottoman rule, or ISIS rule is same. It is Islamic rule.

Sharia law again, after liberation from the Ottomans, two world wars, socialism etc... From this perspective it seems that Latin America is a continent of happy people.

King Bardhyl
29-09-14, 18:09
@ LeBrok



Glad to hear that.


I never meant that we shouldn't be vigilant and should stand on guard for our freedoms, democracy and civilization in general. It doesn't matter for me if the thread comes from ISIS, other muslim terrorists, christian fundamentalists, Spanish Inquisition or Putin's Russia.
Having said that, I don't think we should be too worried about Albanian Muslims or few of them turning jihadists. There are just few among few million of normal and tolerant Albanians. Such rogue elements exist not only in Albania, and I'm sure we could find few Serbian volunteers helping Russian separatists in Ukraine. Ike would go too, if only he wasn't chained to his computer and internet. ;) There are German revisionists, and Russian nazi, but they are few and between. Not enough to change the world and take our freedoms away. We should talk about them but without a panic.
What I'm saying is that you are demonizing Albanian Muslims way too much and blaming them for historical cruelty over Balkans. I'm sure the new generation of Albanians has nothing to do with sins of grandfathers.


It might mean that Albanians are not very religious in general, and didn't care much in what religion they should live in. They embraced it fast when there was right climate for it, and they can drop it fast when not needed. This is a good sign, and fundamentalists shouldn't be able to find much of fertile ground there. Another good sign is huge participation of Albanians on Eupedia, traveling the world, speaking english and talking about many subjects but how great islam is (unlike occasional posters from Arab countries talking only about their great religion.



I'm optimistic too, and giving a chance people will show mostly their good side.


You say:
"I'm sure the new generation of Albanians has nothing to do with sins of grandfathers".

Can you tell me what are this sins of our grandfathers, pls?
If you do not accept to explain, i have the all the right to think that you have an antialbanian agenda.
Thank you.

LeBrok
30-09-14, 06:29
@ LeBrok
You say:
"I'm sure the new generation of Albanians has nothing to do with sins of grandfathers".

Can you tell me what are this sins of our grandfathers, pls?
What?! Are you saying that Albanians are the nation of Saints?





If you do not accept to explain, i have the all the right to think that you have an antialbanian agenda.
Thank you.
After few conversations with you I don't really care what you think anymore of me or any subject whatsoever. I only care that you treat anyone here with civility.

King Bardhyl
30-09-14, 15:11
@ LeBrok


What?! Are you saying that Albanians are the nation of Saints?






After few conversations with you I don't really care what you think anymore of me or any subject whatsoever. I only care that you treat anyone here with civility.



I am not telling that we are a nation of Saints, we have a long list of Saints, most prominent is Mother Teresa.
All the people are product of Original sin, but your discussion was not theologic.
You say:
"I'm sure the new generation of Albanians has nothing to do with sins of grandfathers".

I am ignorant and i don`t know this sins. I know that against my people is committed a genocide with intentions of his extermination. Is called Albanian Golgotha. Started at 31.05.1779, and stopped at 10.06.1999.
So, where did you find these sins, can you tell me?




This member with nick Melancon (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/48729-Melancon) http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/48729-Melancon is member here from 28-04-14 and he has made 25 posts, there are 23 posts from 24-09-14 until 29-09-14 in which he insulted Albanians. The albanian members complained to you. And your answer at 25-09-14, 17:07, post #638 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=439933&viewfull=1#post439933) in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity/page26 was:
"Otherwise Melancone's posts are within Eupedia's guidelines.
Welcome to Eupedia Melancone".

And Melancon continue with his agenda and at 26-09-14, 01:31 post #675 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=440008&viewfull=1#post440008) he said:
"2. the Albanians are an Illyrian tribe, but their men are foreign in origin and have been taken over by foreign non-Albanian people. (most likely Ottoman Turks)"
Meanwhile the albanian member are baned .
I can bring more examples, but there is non need, all is clear.


I am member here because i think the man during his life always need to learn. I have read different your post LeBrok, and i am sorry to tell you that are are low level and do not have nothing learns from your posts.

P.S.

At 21.09.2014 Pope Francis made a visit in Albania and he said:
"Albania, terra di eroi e di martiri", "Albania, land of heroes and martirs".
He didn`t talked about the sins of our grandparents.

Maybe you know more than the Pope, so i insist that you tell this sins of our grandfathers.
Thank you.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
30-09-14, 16:54
@Βάρδυλλε, remove the picture.
From whom you get insult? You confussing me?

_(!) is that a true or not:
The foto with the happy soldier occupy my territorial state of origin, Achelloos valley/Agrafa. The place you are pointing it is and it was always Greece and it will always be Hellas. ( not illyrian, check your patriot Aristo.)

"...αυτή δ' 'εστίν η περί Δωδώνην και Άχελλώο [...]ώκουν γάρ οί Σελλοί ενταύθα και οι καλούμενοι τότε μέν Γραικοί,νυν δε Έλληνες / Aristotle(Μετεωρ 352b)

_My "vela", have you ever joined to army? -Have you got dead people in your family as casualties from war?
_Stay of the "net" for a while, stop playstation, find a girlfriend, find a true reason to live.

mihaitzateo
30-09-14, 21:54
Capitalism and freedom are not the same thing.
When some people will accumulate too many money,what guarantees that they will not try to enslave other people,what guarantees that these people will not use unlawful means to preserve their social status?
I do support liberty but I do not support capitalism as I do not support communism/bolshevik regime.
If you want to know which countries are most free from all world,well go take a look at Sweden,Norway,Denmark,Iceland and others like these.
These countries are neither capitalist,neither bolshevik but have very human regime,which respects the human beings a lot.
Neither capitalism,neither bolshevik regimes are respecting human beings .
Bolshevik and capitalist regimes are ill regimes,made by mentally ill people.
UK is not capitalist either,it has too much social protection for the people,to be a capitalist country.

I do support the small property of the people and the competition on the market,to keep the prices decent.
Now in bolshevik/communist regimes,the state decides with what price to sell some products.
But when we are saying "the state",it is clear that are some people ,a few people,which decides the prices.
In capitalism,some few companies are producing something.Do you think that they will be honest and not agree between them,with what price to sell the things that they are only producing?
So in capitalism,we have again a few people deciding what the price for a product should be.\
On the other hand,take freedom,with lots of small producers,you will find for sure plenty of people producing something and it will be quite impossible for them to reach a deal on the price of what they produce.
The price will drop,because of competition.
So here is how freedom and small property is clearly superior to both capitalism and bolshevik regimes.

King Bardhyl
30-09-14, 22:06
Capitalism and freedom are not the same thing.
When some people will accumulate too many money,what guarantees that they will not try to enslave other people,what guarantees that these people will not use unlawful means to preserve their social status?
I do support liberty but I do not support capitalism as I do not support communism/bolshevik regime.
If you want to know which countries are most free from all world,well go take a look at Sweden,Norway,Denmark,Iceland and others like these.
These countries are neither capitalist,neither bolshevik but have very human regime,which respects the human beings a lot.
Neither capitalism,neither bolshevik regimes are respecting human beings .
Bolshevik and capitalist regimes are ill regimes,made by mentally ill people.
UK is not capitalist either,it has too much social protection for the people,to be a capitalist country.

I do support the small property of the people and the competition on the market,to keep the prices decent.
Now in bolshevik/communist regimes,the state decides with what price to sell some products.
But when we are saying "the state",it is clear that are some people ,a few people,which decides the prices.
In capitalism,some few companies are producing something.Do you think that they will be honest and not agree between them,with what price to sell the things that they are only producing?
So in capitalism,we have again a few people deciding what the price for a product should be.\
On the other hand,take freedom,with lots of small producers,you will find for sure plenty of people producing something and it will be quite impossible for them to reach a deal on the price of what they produce.
The price will drop,because of competition.
So here is how freedom and small property is clearly superior to both capitalism and bolshevik regimes.

And how would you make heavy industry with small property? This small, smell Maoism

Garrick
30-09-14, 23:01
@ LeBrok





I am not telling that we are a nation of Saints, we have a long list of Saints, most prominent is Mother Teresa.
All the people are product of Original sin, but your discussion was not theologic.
You say:
"I'm sure the new generation of Albanians has nothing to do with sins of grandfathers".

I am ignorant and i don`t know this sins. I know that against my people is committed a genocide with intentions of his extermination. Is called Albanian Golgotha. Started at 31.05.1779, and stopped at 10.06.1999.
So, where did you find these sins, can you tell me?




This member with nick Melancon (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/48729-Melancon) http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/48729-Melancon is member here from 28-04-14 and he has made 25 posts, there are 23 posts from 24-09-14 until 29-09-14 in which he insulted Albanians. The albanian members complained to you. And your answer at 25-09-14, 17:07, post #638 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=439933&viewfull=1#post439933) in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity/page26 was:
"Otherwise Melancone's posts are within Eupedia's guidelines.
Welcome to Eupedia Melancone".

And Melancon continue with his agenda and at 26-09-14, 01:31 post #675 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27710-Illyrian-Albanian-Continuity?p=440008&viewfull=1#post440008) he said:
"2. the Albanians are an Illyrian tribe, but their men are foreign in origin and have been taken over by foreign non-Albanian people. (most likely Ottoman Turks)"
Meanwhile the albanian member are baned .
I can bring more examples, but there is non need, all is clear.


I am member here because i think the man during his life always need to learn. I have read different your post LeBrok, and i am sorry to tell you that are are low level and do not have nothing learns from your posts.

P.S.

At 21.09.2014 Pope Francis made a visit in Albania and he said:
"Albania, terra di eroi e di martiri", "Albania, land of heroes and martirs".
He didn`t talked about the sins of our grandparents.

Maybe you know more than the Pope, so i insist that you tell this sins of our grandfathers.
Thank you.

Bardhilic, a little more reality and less fantasies. Who was the Muslim Ottoman fist in the Balkans over the oppressed Christian nations (Greeks, Bulgarian, Serbs etc.), the answer is very easy.

King Bardhyl
30-09-14, 23:06
Bardhilic, a little more reality and less fantasies. Who was the Muslim Ottoman fist in the Balkans over the oppressed Christian nations (Greeks, Bulgarian, Serbs etc.), the answer is very easy.


Can you tell me why in Belgrade is a road named Ulica Yanni Konda? Who is Yanni Konda, or Kondo Bimbasi?
Read the story of your King, and pls give a contribute to understand the truth.

My nick is Bardhyl, dont ofend me with this suffix ic. And dont start with name because you serbs have very interesting names.

LeBrok
01-10-14, 01:11
@ LeBrok

I am not telling that we are a nation of Saints, we have a long list of Saints, most prominent is Mother Teresa.
Sorry, you lost meaning of "being the nation of saints". The sense of my question was whether Albanians didn't commit any bloody deeds against other ethnicities or nations.
Here is one of them:


Bardhilic, a little more reality and less fantasies. Who was the Muslim Ottoman fist in the Balkans over the oppressed Christian nations (Greeks, Bulgarian, Serbs etc.), the answer is very easy.

Sile
01-10-14, 03:17
Can you tell me why in Belgrade is a road named Ulica Yanni Konda? Who is Yanni Konda, or Kondo Bimbasi?
Read the story of your King, and pls give a contribute to understand the truth.

My nick is Bardhyl, dont ofend me with this suffix ic. And dont start with name because you serbs have very interesting names.

whats the road got to do with the question?...Barhydl.............I don't understand where you are going with this. We already expalined that in ancient history, over 90% of "illyrian" tribes where not in modern Albania , when celts, then followed by Romans and finally later by slavs moved in, the 90% of "illyrians" where absorbed into these societies.

I see NO match between the remaining fleeing "illyrians" who sort protection from the Macedonian and Later Roman empires as being albanians

Perandor
01-10-14, 04:23
Sorry, you lost meaning of "being the nation of saints". The sense of my question was whether Albanians didn't commit any bloody deeds against other ethnicities or nations.
Here is one of them:

LeBrok I picked up on that "sins of grandfathers" remark too but didn't reply for the sake of not going any more offtopic than we already have. But since we are going down this path I too would like to know what sins of our grandfathers do you talk of? Because I believe I am backed by history when I say that we Albanians have always been fairly detached from Balkan affairs and have not participated in any of the bloodsheds that have happened here. How many non-fictional, documented ethnic genocides carried out by Albanians can you name? I won't even ask about wars. Lets not forget that as recently as the end of WWII, while the Greeks were exterminating Cham Albanians, Greeks in Albania were being fed and housed by the Communist regime as the rest of the country itself was in starvation. No we are not a nation of saints, but we sure as hell are not nearly as soaked in blood as our neighbors.

You bring this quote of Garrick which I can't even understand. Based on my knowledge of their tired rhetoric I am assuming he is once again referring to the "heaven" that Albanians were living in during the Ottoman Empires because they presumably switched to Islam since day one. I would reply to Garrick, but I think he doesn't like to respond to me, so I am replying to you since you seem more reasonable. Lets remind ourselves that while Scanderbeg was still fighting, the Greeks were already in bed with the Ottomans and the Serbs were just about starting to send their princesses to breed the Ottoman dynasty. Lets also not forget that when Scanderbeg was trying to join forces with Hunyadi, he was prevented from doing so by none other than the Serbs. And when all this was over and the Albanian people were broken, they were not allowed to teach their language and their lands didn't receive any significant development. The Serbs and the Greeks, the poor victims of the Ottomans, suffered no such fate. It gets my blood boiling when these people with delusions of grandeur downplay or even deny the sufferings of Albanians under the Ottoman Empire.


whats the road got to do with the question?...Barhydl.............I don't understand where you are going with this. We already expalined that in ancient history, over 90% of "illyrian" tribes where not in modern Albania , when celts, then followed by Romans and finally later by slavs moved in, the 90% of "illyrians" where absorbed into these societies.

I see NO match between the remaining fleeing "illyrians" who sort protection from the Macedonian and Later Roman empires as being albanians

And Sile, what is going on here is a discussion between people unqualified in this field. Illyrian is just a name the Ancient Greeks and the Romans gave to the people in the Western Balkans. We don't even know if they were the same people, spoke the same language or had the same traditions. We know nothing. Its just that in scientific circles the Illyrian-Albanian continuity and its variants are the most accepted, so we go by it. I am sure that these questions you and others ask have been raised a thousand times already.

LeBrok
01-10-14, 06:45
LeBrok I picked up on that "sins of grandfathers" remark too but didn't reply for the sake of not going any more offtopic than we already have. But since we are going down this path I too would like to know what sins of our grandfathers do you talk of? Because I believe I am backed by history when I say that we Albanians have always been fairly detached from Balkan affairs and have not participated in any of the bloodsheds that have happened here. How many non-fictional, documented ethnic genocides carried out by Albanians can you name? I won't even ask about wars. Lets not forget that as recently as the end of WWII, while the Greeks were exterminating Cham Albanians, Greeks in Albania were being fed and housed by the Communist regime as the rest of the country itself was in starvation. No we are not a nation of saints, but we sure as hell are not nearly as soaked in blood as our neighbors.
I agree with this. Usually the strongest nations dominated the weaker ones, smaller nations don't have power and opportunity to impose their rules over stronger ones. Overall I'm yet to find the always peaceful people on this planet. The difference between nations is only in a scale of sins one nation committed against other, usually their neighbors. There is also in play the unknown history of Albanian people, as historically speaking Albanians are a fairly new nation on European scene. Who knows how saint Albanians were in this unknown period? However I don't think they had opportunity to do too much bad, otherwise historians would have noticed such cruel nation. ;)

Point I was making was philosophical in nature with nothing specific in mind. "Who is without a sin cast the first stone."

mihaitzateo
01-10-14, 12:24
And how would you make heavy industry with small property? This small, smell Maoism
Lol Bardhyl you think that a an automobile can be made only in large factories?
I will give an example,in Romania we have a small company,called Softronic that is producing electric locomotives.
They are doing quite well and they also produced now an electrical train,that they are using to transport people at decent speeds and prices.
What is again common in capitalism and bolshevik regime is producing lots of goods at large scale.
People are forced to choose between a very limited offer.
Maoism is not supporting small property,what are you talking there?
What I am talking here is about Scandinavian -like regimes which at the moment are best in the world.
Even a country with few resources like Finland with this kind of regime is having between best living standards in the world.
And a very well distributed wealth.
As I already said,both capitalism and bolshevik regimes are regimes made by mentally ill people.
In neither of these regimes (capitalism or bolshevik regimes) wealth is distributed,there is a leading class,controlling most goods,and a class of half-slaves which are working hard to maintain the status of the leading class.

King Bardhyl
01-10-14, 14:17
Can you tell me why in Belgrade is a road named Ulica Yanni Konda? Who is Yanni Konda, or Kondo Bimbasi?
Read the story of your King, and pls give a contribute to understand the truth.

My nick is Bardhyl, dont ofend me with this suffix ic. And dont start with name because you serbs have very interesting names.

Again the same story i made an simple question and nobody know the story of his country.
i am going to explain now. Yanni Kondo or as he is called in Serbia Kondo Bimbashi was an albanian from South Albania. He, with 300-400 albanian warriors was the first man who entered in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgrade_Fortress during the Serbian Uprising against the Ottomans. He take with war the castle from turks. For this reason one road in Belgrade has his name. OK.
About History of Serbia we can speak a lot here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30495-King-Kara%C4%91or%C4%91e-Serbian-or-Albanian

King Bardhyl
01-10-14, 15:37
Bardhilic, a little more reality and less fantasies. Who was the Muslim Ottoman fist in the Balkans over the oppressed Christian nations (Greeks, Bulgarian, Serbs etc.), the answer is very easy.


I have read your posts Garrick. This thread is about comunism. But you have used this to speak against albanians and to pose the albanians as Taliban.
Now there are 50-100 Albanians with ISIS. This is the true. But how can you consider an entire nations terrorist starting from 50 losers, people with a lot of problems in their life?
We do not take into account all these people.Nations are like people, we consider they our defecate, and you are being excavated there. Continue with your job.

Our goverment has made ​​clear the position of Albania. In accordance with NATO plans Albanian government was among the first that helped Kurdish rebels with weaponry.
But this are plans of NATO you don`t understand this.

Rest was deleted.

Ike
01-10-14, 15:58
I have read your posts Garrick. This thread is about comunism. But you have used this to speak against albanians and to pose the albanians as Taliban.

Yet you also failed to restrain yourself and open a separate thread ...

King Bardhyl
01-10-14, 17:43
We should send our post to you to get your approval before posting?
In comunism this was called autocensure.

So even arrive to censorship. Well some historical truths should not say, while the antialbanian propaganda, can continue without problem, right?

Ike
01-10-14, 21:51
You're not censored on the forum, just on this thread.
Just start a separate thread about Albanian national history and write there.

King Bardhyl
01-10-14, 21:56
You're not censored on the forum, just on this thread.
Just start a separate thread about Albanian national history and write there.
Who suggest you this?

Ike
01-10-14, 22:01
Nobody, it's a logical thing to do if you have a lot of things to say, and they are off-topic here.

King Bardhyl
01-10-14, 22:10
Start to read again your posts here and the posts of Garrick, and you will see. My post censured by Big Brother had to do with the consequences of the fall of communism in the former Yugoslavia.

Must eliminate all hammers.

Ike
01-10-14, 22:25
Start to read again your posts here and the posts of Garrick, and you will see. My post censured by Big Brother had to do with the consequences of the fall of communism in the former Yugoslavia.

Must eliminate all hammers.

Even the posts the remained have nothing to do with the subject - you write about ISIS, Kurds, Serbian uprising of 1804, Ottomans, Pope Francis, Mother Theresa ... Just take all of that to a separate thread. It has nothing to do with the quality of life under communism in Albania or anywhere else.

King Bardhyl
01-10-14, 22:31
It`s funy when you start to make the manipulator. People have all the possibility to read all with the exception of the famous post censured.
Btw can you help me in the mission of finding the real roots of Your King?

Ike
01-10-14, 23:21
It`s funy when you start to make the manipulator. People have all the possibility to read all with the exception of the famous post censured.
Well if it makes you feel better, I'd delete a least 10 posts if I was a moderator. I guess he has no time to go through all our s**t.


Btw can you help me in the mission of finding the real roots of Your King?
He is not my king. I'm not Serbian. BTW, he was not a king but a Duke.

Garrick
02-10-14, 03:42
Capitalism and freedom are not the same thing.
When some people will accumulate too many money,what guarantees that they will not try to enslave other people,what guarantees that these people will not use unlawful means to preserve their social status?
I do support liberty but I do not support capitalism as I do not support communism/bolshevik regime.
If you want to know which countries are most free from all world,well go take a look at Sweden,Norway,Denmark,Iceland and others like these.
These countries are neither capitalist,neither bolshevik but have very human regime,which respects the human beings a lot.
Neither capitalism,neither bolshevik regimes are respecting human beings .
Bolshevik and capitalist regimes are ill regimes,made by mentally ill people.
UK is not capitalist either,it has too much social protection for the people,to be a capitalist country.

I do support the small property of the people and the competition on the market,to keep the prices decent.
Now in bolshevik/communist regimes,the state decides with what price to sell some products.
But when we are saying "the state",it is clear that are some people ,a few people,which decides the prices.
In capitalism,some few companies are producing something.Do you think that they will be honest and not agree between them,with what price to sell the things that they are only producing?
So in capitalism,we have again a few people deciding what the price for a product should be.\
On the other hand,take freedom,with lots of small producers,you will find for sure plenty of people producing something and it will be quite impossible for them to reach a deal on the price of what they produce.
The price will drop,because of competition.
So here is how freedom and small property is clearly superior to both capitalism and bolshevik regimes.

But it takes some time, because there is a natural process of enlarging.

An this is no only in economy, and in the natural sciences too (for example in biology), it is universal.

Not all companies all the time to survive, the most able companies rise over time and displace others, some smaller companies survive by finding a special niche of market.

Of course process is very dynamic, some small companies are shutting down but new companies with new ideas enter the market.

And some large companies over time can run into difficulties if they cannot adapt new challenges.

King Bardhyl
02-10-14, 14:37
Well if it makes you feel better, I'd delete a least 10 posts if I was a moderator. I guess he has no time to go through all our s**t.


He is not my king. I'm not Serbian. BTW, he was not a king but a Duke.


Well if it makes you feel better, I'd delete a least 10 posts if I was a moderator.

It`s not the question to fill better.
Well Ike in my life i have read a lot of books and you have to belive me after the Holocaust made against jews people , the second is the genocid against albanian people in the last 200 years. You and Garrick can make edit to your post.You can say evrything about me but pls not against my people.
If you read all my post you can find only one comment about serbs:"i think serbian people are serious people".

"I guess he has no time to go through all our s**t".

I think he is always ready with a hammer, because he think that the albanian are sinful nation and he sees albanian like nails.


"all our s**t".

It`s time. Let`s concentrate to the arguments and not to the persons. Let`s make a civil dialogue.

"I'm not Serbian".

May i ask you where are you from?


"He is not my king.BTW, he was not a king but a Duke".

Ok. You can give your contribute here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30495-King-Kara%C4%91or%C4%91e-Serbian-or-Albanian
Thank you.

King Bardhyl
02-10-14, 15:27
Lol Bardhyl you think that a an automobile can be made only in large factories?
I will give an example,in Romania we have a small company,called Softronic that is producing electric locomotives.
They are doing quite well and they also produced now an electrical train,that they are using to transport people at decent speeds and prices.
What is again common in capitalism and bolshevik regime is producing lots of goods at large scale.
People are forced to choose between a very limited offer.
Maoism is not supporting small property,what are you talking there?
What I am talking here is about Scandinavian -like regimes which at the moment are best in the world.
Even a country with few resources like Finland with this kind of regime is having between best living standards in the world.
And a very well distributed wealth.
As I already said,both capitalism and bolshevik regimes are regimes made by mentally ill people.
In neither of these regimes (capitalism or bolshevik regimes) wealth is distributed,there is a leading class,controlling most goods,and a class of half-slaves which are working hard to maintain the status of the leading class.

Backyard furnaces

Main article: Backyard furnace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Backyard_furnace4.jpg/220px-Backyard_furnace4.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Backyard_furnace4.jpg) Backyard furnaces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace) in China during the Great Leap Forward era.


With no personal knowledge of metallurgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy), Mao encouraged the establishment of small backyard steel furnaces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace) in every commune and in each urban neighborhood. Mao was shown an example of a backyard furnace in Hefei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hefei), Anhui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhui) in September 1958 by provincial first secretary Zeng Xisheng.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#cite_note-Zhi-Sui2011-28) The unit was claimed to be manufacturing high quality steel.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#cite_note-Zhi-Sui2011-28)
Huge efforts on the part of peasants and other workers were made to produce steel out of scrap metal. To fuel the furnaces the local environment was denuded of trees and wood taken from the doors and furniture of peasants' houses. Pots, pans, and other metal artifacts were requisitioned to supply the "scrap" for the furnaces so that the wildly optimistic production targets could be met. Many of the male agricultural workers were diverted from the harvest to help the iron production as were the workers at many factories, schools and even hospitals. Although the output consisted of low quality lumps of pig iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_iron) which was of negligible economic worth, Mao had a deep distrust of intellectuals and faith in the power of the mass mobilization of the peasants.
Moreover, the experience of the intellectual classes following the Hundred Flowers Campaign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign) silenced those aware of the folly of such a plan. According to his private doctor, Li Zhisui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Zhisui), Mao and his entourage visited traditional steel works in Manchuria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchuria) in January 1959 where he found out that high quality steel could only be produced in large-scale factories using reliable fuel such as coal. However, he decided not to order a halt to the backyard steel furnaces so as not to dampen the revolutionary enthusiasm of the masses. The program was only quietly abandoned much later in that year.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Backyard_furnace.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Backyard_furnace.jpg) Photograph


Backyard steel furnaces were used by the people of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China) during the Great Leap Forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward) (1958–62).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace#cite_note-2) These small steel blast furnaces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace) were constructed in the backyards of the communes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_commune), hence their names. People used every type of fuel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel) they could to power these furnaces, from coal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal) to the wood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood) of coffins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffins). Where iron ore was unavailable, they melted any steel objects they could get their hands on, including pots and pans, and even bicycles, to make steel girders, but these girders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girder) were useless, as the steel was impure and of poor quality and thus cracked easily. Unbeknownst to the Communist Party officials, the result was not steel, but high carbon pig iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_iron), which needs to be decarburized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decarburized) to make steel.
The results varied from region to region. In regions where the steelmaking tradition had survived unbroken, where the old skills of the ironmasters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironmaster) had not been forgotten, the pig iron was indeed further refined into steel, and the steel production actually did increase. In regions that had no traditions of steelmaking, or the old ironmasters had been killed, or if there was no theoretical understanding of the blast furnace process and refining of the pig iron, the results were unsatisfactory. At worst, the fuel used was high-sulfur coal, rendering even the resulting pig iron useless needing to be re-smelted and desulfurized.

mihaitzateo
02-10-14, 17:14
Backyard furnaces

Main article: Backyard furnace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Backyard_furnace4.jpg/220px-Backyard_furnace4.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Backyard_furnace4.jpg) Backyard furnaces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace) in China during the Great Leap Forward era.


With no personal knowledge of metallurgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy), Mao encouraged the establishment of small backyard steel furnaces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace) in every commune and in each urban neighborhood. Mao was shown an example of a backyard furnace in Hefei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hefei), Anhui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhui) in September 1958 by provincial first secretary Zeng Xisheng.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#cite_note-Zhi-Sui2011-28) The unit was claimed to be manufacturing high quality steel.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#cite_note-Zhi-Sui2011-28)
Huge efforts on the part of peasants and other workers were made to produce steel out of scrap metal. To fuel the furnaces the local environment was denuded of trees and wood taken from the doors and furniture of peasants' houses. Pots, pans, and other metal artifacts were requisitioned to supply the "scrap" for the furnaces so that the wildly optimistic production targets could be met. Many of the male agricultural workers were diverted from the harvest to help the iron production as were the workers at many factories, schools and even hospitals. Although the output consisted of low quality lumps of pig iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_iron) which was of negligible economic worth, Mao had a deep distrust of intellectuals and faith in the power of the mass mobilization of the peasants.
Moreover, the experience of the intellectual classes following the Hundred Flowers Campaign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign) silenced those aware of the folly of such a plan. According to his private doctor, Li Zhisui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Zhisui), Mao and his entourage visited traditional steel works in Manchuria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchuria) in January 1959 where he found out that high quality steel could only be produced in large-scale factories using reliable fuel such as coal. However, he decided not to order a halt to the backyard steel furnaces so as not to dampen the revolutionary enthusiasm of the masses. The program was only quietly abandoned much later in that year.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Backyard_furnace.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Backyard_furnace.jpg) Photograph


Backyard steel furnaces were used by the people of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China) during the Great Leap Forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward) (1958–62).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace#cite_note-2) These small steel blast furnaces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace) were constructed in the backyards of the communes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_commune), hence their names. People used every type of fuel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel) they could to power these furnaces, from coal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal) to the wood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood) of coffins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffins). Where iron ore was unavailable, they melted any steel objects they could get their hands on, including pots and pans, and even bicycles, to make steel girders, but these girders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girder) were useless, as the steel was impure and of poor quality and thus cracked easily. Unbeknownst to the Communist Party officials, the result was not steel, but high carbon pig iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_iron), which needs to be decarburized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decarburized) to make steel.
The results varied from region to region. In regions where the steelmaking tradition had survived unbroken, where the old skills of the ironmasters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironmaster) had not been forgotten, the pig iron was indeed further refined into steel, and the steel production actually did increase. In regions that had no traditions of steelmaking, or the old ironmasters had been killed, or if there was no theoretical understanding of the blast furnace process and refining of the pig iron, the results were unsatisfactory. At worst, the fuel used was high-sulfur coal, rendering even the resulting pig iron useless needing to be re-smelted and desulfurized.
Lol,before industrial revolution,how do you think people were crafting weapons and shields,in the factory?
Or by blacksmiths in forges?
You never heard about choppers made in house or in small workshops in US?
Do you call that "maoism"?
How about you get a clue about this?
You are saying you are "Albanian" well get a clue about Albanians also,Albanians did not had slaves (which shows their Thracian origin),so how can you say you a real Albanian if you are supporting dirty capitalism which is a regime that has as needed a class of half-slaves?

Garrick
13-10-14, 22:09
Glad to hear that.

I'm optimistic too, and giving a chance people will show mostly their good side.

LeBrok
Nobody wants ISIS at the door.

In Serbian monastery of Visoki Decani in Kosovo these days are written following messages:

Caliphate is coming

ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham)

AKSH (Albanian National Army)

UÇK (Kosovo Liberation Army)

...

http://www.ndf.fr/nos-breves/13-10-2014/caliphate-is-coming-les-murs-du-monastere-de-visoki-decani-vandalises#.VDwuz1eSwUE

http://cdn-static.rtl-hrvatska.hr/image/163a4b084d9a68e54faae326a8c9b621_gallery_single_vi ew.jpg?v=17https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bzx3QptCUAAd68W.jpg

http://cdn-static.rtl-hrvatska.hr/image/b0dc4569978974ab1b5627bfd971aa88_gallery_single_vi ew.jpg?v=17

Yetos
13-10-14, 22:39
Backyard furnaces

Main article: Backyard furnace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Backyard_furnace4.jpg/220px-Backyard_furnace4.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Backyard_furnace4.jpg) Backyard furnaces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace) in China during the Great Leap Forward era.


With no personal knowledge of metallurgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy), Mao encouraged the establishment of small backyard steel furnaces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace) in every commune and in each urban neighborhood. Mao was shown an example of a backyard furnace in Hefei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hefei), Anhui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhui) in September 1958 by provincial first secretary Zeng Xisheng.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#cite_note-Zhi-Sui2011-28) The unit was claimed to be manufacturing high quality steel.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#cite_note-Zhi-Sui2011-28)
Huge efforts on the part of peasants and other workers were made to produce steel out of scrap metal. To fuel the furnaces the local environment was denuded of trees and wood taken from the doors and furniture of peasants' houses. Pots, pans, and other metal artifacts were requisitioned to supply the "scrap" for the furnaces so that the wildly optimistic production targets could be met. Many of the male agricultural workers were diverted from the harvest to help the iron production as were the workers at many factories, schools and even hospitals. Although the output consisted of low quality lumps of pig iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_iron) which was of negligible economic worth, Mao had a deep distrust of intellectuals and faith in the power of the mass mobilization of the peasants.
Moreover, the experience of the intellectual classes following the Hundred Flowers Campaign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign) silenced those aware of the folly of such a plan. According to his private doctor, Li Zhisui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Zhisui), Mao and his entourage visited traditional steel works in Manchuria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchuria) in January 1959 where he found out that high quality steel could only be produced in large-scale factories using reliable fuel such as coal. However, he decided not to order a halt to the backyard steel furnaces so as not to dampen the revolutionary enthusiasm of the masses. The program was only quietly abandoned much later in that year.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Backyard_furnace.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Backyard_furnace.jpg) Photograph


Backyard steel furnaces were used by the people of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China) during the Great Leap Forward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward) (1958–62).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace#cite_note-2) These small steel blast furnaces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace) were constructed in the backyards of the communes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_commune), hence their names. People used every type of fuel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel) they could to power these furnaces, from coal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal) to the wood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood) of coffins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffins). Where iron ore was unavailable, they melted any steel objects they could get their hands on, including pots and pans, and even bicycles, to make steel girders, but these girders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girder) were useless, as the steel was impure and of poor quality and thus cracked easily. Unbeknownst to the Communist Party officials, the result was not steel, but high carbon pig iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_iron), which needs to be decarburized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decarburized) to make steel.
The results varied from region to region. In regions where the steelmaking tradition had survived unbroken, where the old skills of the ironmasters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironmaster) had not been forgotten, the pig iron was indeed further refined into steel, and the steel production actually did increase. In regions that had no traditions of steelmaking, or the old ironmasters had been killed, or if there was no theoretical understanding of the blast furnace process and refining of the pig iron, the results were unsatisfactory. At worst, the fuel used was high-sulfur coal, rendering even the resulting pig iron useless needing to be re-smelted and desulfurized.


Yes the known stupidty of Mao,

Mao wanted to be first in steel production,
so he took peasants from fields and force them to produce steel!!!

they manage to pass British empire, but with a steel that worth nothing, thrivy steel ψαθυρος χαλυβας,

next year with small number of farmers, china had food problems,
Mao thought and thought
and he find the solution,

IT WAS THE SPARROWS, the little birds eat the seed and the work of the farmers,
so he bought so many air-rifles, to kill the sparrows,
more than 100 000 peasants walk with air riffles to shot sparrows,

the result, Next years Mosquitos run the fields, you could not work even see with so many mosquitos,
water was biological poluted that people died from dysenteria (bad working stomach and belly). common in African countries,

the story is known as the presumptuous, the arrogance of Mao, that led china to first agreement with foreigns to start industrial production

the only he manage is to take license to produce air-riffles in China,

but that was the point,

with that license started industrialization of china,
and today china is No 1 in industry,

all was by the stupidity of Mao,

Yetos
13-10-14, 23:06
LeBrok
Nobody wants ISIS at the door.

In Serbian monastery of Visoki Decani in Kosovo these days are written following messages:

Caliphate is coming

ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham)

AKSH (Albanian National Army)

UÇK (Kosovo Liberation Army)

...

http://www.ndf.fr/nos-breves/13-10-2014/caliphate-is-coming-les-murs-du-monastere-de-visoki-decani-vandalises#.VDwuz1eSwUE

http://cdn-static.rtl-hrvatska.hr/image/163a4b084d9a68e54faae326a8c9b621_gallery_single_vi ew.jpg?v=17https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bzx3QptCUAAd68W.jpg

http://cdn-static.rtl-hrvatska.hr/image/b0dc4569978974ab1b5627bfd971aa88_gallery_single_vi ew.jpg?v=17

and that is nothing yet,

in greece they find 4 flags with the hand raised,
marked areas of gathering,

King Bardhyl
13-10-14, 23:29
http://historum.com/customprofilepics/profilepic22557_1.gif

mihaitzateo
21-10-14, 21:45
We can see that bolshevisms can exist together with capitalism,in same country,from the example of our days China.
Why?
Because both are regimes that oppress the average people and have a leading class of people.
We have a kind of slavery,in both regimes.
No idea why you consider bolshevisms/communism and capitalism different.
The idea is same,a small number of people control most resources.
In theory,in communism the resources are belonging to the "people".
But in fact,is the dictator/president and his clique and secret police,that are controlling most resources.
In capitalism,are the large corporations that are controlling most resources.
As we know,a corporation has a CEO that is usually leading in a dictatorial mode and a few people,if not one,who are owning the company.
The people who are owning the company,are interested that the CEO will bring them profit and fame,most of the time.
(the corporation had ..... profit is the most well known corporation from that domain.)
See the people that are owning the company,as the president of a communist country,they decide to change the CEO at their will.
The CEO and the high ranked managers are the equivalent of the secret service /secret police from a communist country.
They are enforcing the normal people,threat them etc to bring profit,so the CEO reach the goals wanted by owners/owner of the company.
Usually the owners are involving in the politics and as how one would expect,they would like to have laws,to favor their company/companies.
Does this look to you like democracy or liberty?
Cause to me,it doesn't.

Garrick
26-10-14, 23:02
We can see that bolshevisms can exist together with capitalism,in same country,from the example of our days China.
Why?
Because both are regimes that oppress the average people and have a leading class of people.
We have a kind of slavery,in both regimes.
No idea why you consider bolshevisms/communism and capitalism different.
The idea is same,a small number of people control most resources.
In theory,in communism the resources are belonging to the "people".
But in fact,is the dictator/president and his clique and secret police,that are controlling most resources.
In capitalism,are the large corporations that are controlling most resources.
As we know,a corporation has a CEO that is usually leading in a dictatorial mode and a few people,if not one,who are owning the company.
The people who are owning the company,are interested that the CEO will bring them profit and fame,most of the time.
(the corporation had ..... profit is the most well known corporation from that domain.)
See the people that are owning the company,as the president of a communist country,they decide to change the CEO at their will.
The CEO and the high ranked managers are the equivalent of the secret service /secret police from a communist country.
They are enforcing the normal people,threat them etc to bring profit,so the CEO reach the goals wanted by owners/owner of the company.
Usually the owners are involving in the politics and as how one would expect,they would like to have laws,to favor their company/companies.
Does this look to you like democracy or liberty?
Cause to me,it doesn't.

You can be right for every written word but there is a problem.

No one has devised and implemented a society where everyone is happy, in other words ideal society does not exist.

Perhaps one of the biggest problem for design and implementation of the society where the people are satisfied (if not all, at least the vast majority) are limited resources.

Communism certainly did not gave a solution, and capitalism in general has a higher potential, certainly accountable governments can with combination of different ways to do things better, but it's far to ideal until someone finds a system better than capitalism.

Technology development if continues can significantly help in creating such a system, and I am confident that the technology will make the lack of resources largely obsolete as a problem, certainly there are those who look at technology as a threat, and it makes sense, but my view of technology is that it is one of the key solutions to create a better system.

Gorgonzola
27-10-14, 19:13
Garrick the ones who wrote the graffiti was the serb mafia in order to incriminate the albanians, something that u did right away because you love writting bullshit and attacking the albanians.

Garrick
28-10-14, 21:46
Garrick the ones who wrote the graffiti was the serb mafia in order to incriminate the albanians, something that u did right away because you love writting bullshit and attacking the albanians.

Orthodox Cristian clergy is mafia?

No, and it is very bad what you use term Mafia in context one of the jewels of Serbian medieval spirituality and world heritage site, Monastery of Visoki Decani:

http://www.kosovo.net/decani_mon2.jpg

Garrick
28-10-14, 22:12
Garrick the ones who wrote the graffiti was the serb mafia in order to incriminate the albanians, something that u did right away because you love writting bullshit and attacking the albanians.

I don't attack nobody.

Only I write about real problems.

There are many websites on the Internet where it says that yesterday was Communism and today is political Islam as threat to the free world.

I'm just naturally open and I write about it, with everyone I can engage in a dialogue with arguments and sources.

And many researchers study topic about possible future Caliphate on the Balkans and beyond, surely I'm not the only one.

For example you can read the book:

Christopher Deliso (American author)

The Coming Balkan Caliphate: The Threat of Radical Islam to Europe and the West

http://books.google.rs/books/about/The_Coming_Balkan_Caliphate.html?id=arTqAAAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y

Gorgonzola
29-10-14, 00:38
What you are writting here has nothing to do with this topic.

The topic is called "To Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovens, Hungarians..:wasn't life under socialism better?"

albanopolis
30-10-14, 15:58
I don't attack nobody.

Only I write about real problems.

There are many websites on the Internet where it says that yesterday was Communism and today is political Islam as threat to the free world.

I'm just naturally open and I write about it, with everyone I can engage in a dialogue with arguments and sources.

And many researchers study topic about possible future Caliphate on the Balkans and beyond, surely I'm not the only one.

For example you can read the book:

Christopher Deliso (American author)

The Coming Balkan Caliphate: The Threat of Radical Islam to Europe and the West



http://books.google.rs/books/about/The_Coming_Balkan_Caliphate.html?id=arTqAAAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y



What are you a priest? I see you obsessed with caliphate theory.
No caliphate will be installed in the Balkans.
Islam in the Balkans will be light and with minimal influence. Balkan countries are EU oriented and religion is controlled by the governments.
Balkans did not became caliphate in the middle ages when people believed that even stones had spirits, let alone now that evolution theory is taught in school.
So, calm down and enlighten yourself.
If you are a priest be tolerant, there is life beyond orthodoxy.

Garrick
30-10-14, 17:24
What are you a priest? I see you obsessed with caliphate theory.
No caliphate will be installed in the Balkans.
Islam in the Balkans will be light and with minimal influence. Balkan countries are EU oriented and religion is controlled by the governments.
Balkans did not became caliphate in the middle ages when people believed that even stones had spirits, let alone now that evolution theory is taught in school.
So, calm down and enlighten yourself.
If you are a priest be tolerant, there is life beyond orthodoxy.

I can't believe that someone from Balkans thinks so.

Maybe, you live in New Zealand or Latin America, then I can understand.

No, I'm not priest, just an ordinary concerned man.

ISIS and Caliphate are one of major topics in European and world media, you have many analysis, books etc.

Balkans is very close to actual Islamic State.

And you can see what analysts write.

Maybe you think that I write all, I guess, I mastered all world's media, hm?

Will ISIS Make it through Turkey to the Bridge to Europe?

http://chaoticness.com/will-isis-make-turkey-bridge-europe

http://chaoticness.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/euromiddleeastmap.gif

"While Turkey vows to not fight ISIS on the ground, and with the airstrikes the U.S. is working with, it almost seems as though ISIS will have a somewhat clean movement right to the bridge into Europe?"

"I have suspected that once ISIS reaches Turkey all hell will break loose, but with the way everything has been going it may just be an easier move for them then one would think."

"ISIS will skate right through into Bulgaria? and who knows how far they would make it through Western Europe."

...
Man speaks what is logical, and from Syria to Balkans is not a big distance.

albanopolis
30-10-14, 19:47
I can't believe that someone from Balkans thinks so.

Maybe, you live in New Zealand or Latin America, then I can understand.

No, I'm not priest, just an ordinary concerned man.

ISIS and Caliphate are one of major topics in European and world media, you have many analysis, books etc.

Balkans is very close to actual Islamic State.

And you can see what analysts write.

Maybe you think that I write all, I guess, I mastered all world's media, hm?

Will ISIS Make it through Turkey to the Bridge to Europe?

http://chaoticness.com/will-isis-make-turkey-bridge-europe

http://chaoticness.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/euromiddleeastmap.gif

"While Turkey vows to not fight ISIS on the ground, and with the airstrikes the U.S. is working with, it almost seems as though ISIS will have a somewhat clean movement right to the bridge into Europe?"

"I have suspected that once ISIS reaches Turkey all hell will break loose, but with the way everything has been going it may just be an easier move for them then one would think."

"ISIS will skate right through into Bulgaria? and who knows how far they would make it through Western Europe."

...
Man speaks what is logical, and from Syria to Balkans is not a big distance.


Don't get hooked by the books! They have to be provocative to sell them!
If they write: Europe is sound and safe nobody will buy the book and they will make no money. How much did you pay for that book?
Had ISIS being that big of a threat you would see military machines buzzing around.
Instead you see few American warplanes in target practice. Instead of dropping those bombs in their desert
they drop them in Syrian one.

Perandor
30-10-14, 22:31
How much more offtopic does this thread need to go before some appropriate action is taken?