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Echetlaeus
27-04-14, 22:04
... because Alex the Great said:

Dedication of Alexander to Athena
"Alexander, son of Philip, and the Greeks, except the Lacedaemonians,
from the barbarian inhabitants in Asia".

That's it bros. So stop lying yourselves and believing that you
are Macedonians. Your old name Vardarska suits you fine.

We will gladly acknowledge you using that name.

LeBrok
28-04-14, 00:02
It means that Alexander considered himself a Greek. To be Greek was to belong to superior civilization back then, so why not. For a similar reason many smaller countries like Poland and Romania joined European Union. To belong to something greater (size, power, economy, technology, science) than themselves.
It doesn't mean that ordinary Greeks agreed with calling Macedonians Greeks. Especially before Alexander had build the biggest empire. After than everybody wanted to be related to Alexander.

Till Greeks have been conquered by his father, Macedonians were not allowed to compete in Greek Olympics. What might have been a reason?

After all he's called Macedonian, not Alexander the Greek.


That's it bros. So stop lying yourselves and believing that you
are Macedonians. Your old name Vardarska suits you fine.
On genetic level there is obvious genetic continuity of people living in Macedonia (FYROM) with Northern Greeks. It means that Slavs didn't replace Macedonian population but changed it culturally. Heck, there is stronger genetic relation between Slavic Macedonia and Northern Greece than between North and South Greece.

It looks like Macedonians on both sides of the border are the grandchildren of ancient Macedonians. They just speak different languages. In this case I'm talking about modern Greeks too. They would have hell of a problem to communicate with Greeks 2,300 years ago, not mentioning in Macedonian, whatever hellenic dialect or not they spoke.

Echetlaeus
28-04-14, 00:29
Cannot be, the Slavs came 1000 years later.

And also if they do not follow the Hellenicon, they cannot be called Macedonias. That's it, very simple and neat. Genome does not say much. If a Greek, living in a country for many years, has forgotten the Hellenic ways, cannot be called Greek also.

We also say Leonidas of Sparta and not Leonidas the Greek, Thales from Miletos and not Thales the Greek, this was common in the Hellenic World. Generally I find you sir very Anti-Hellenic and I do not know why? :sad-2: Are you by any chance of Balkan ethnicity? Do you care to tell us what is your ethnic group? All members that I see around have revealed that !

LeBrok
28-04-14, 01:09
Cannot be, the Slavs came 1000 years later. Cannot be what?
When looking at the Macedonians and North Greek genetics, not many of them came. Big majority of genes are local, therefore Macedonians in origin.


And also if they do not follow the Hellenicon, they cannot be called Macedonias. What does that mean to follow Hellenicon?



That's it, very simple and neat. Genome does not say much. Because you can't read it. It can tell you a lot about your health and predispositions. It can find your missing cousins, or natural parents. It can show your place of origin and migrations. It can tell you if you will go bold or not. In the future when we figure it out completely it will tell you how to live to live long and healthy.


If a Greek, living in a country for many years, has forgotten the Hellenic ways, cannot be called Greek also. What Hellenic ways?
You already don't have religion of your ancestors, the hellenistic religion. Alexander would call you a pagan. You dress way different than Greeks of his era. You speak modern Greek with modern accent which wouldn't be understandable for them. You know nothing about everyday life of Iron Age peasants (which were 90% of populations back then). You like different music than they did. You eat different food/dishes. You can't dance the way they did. You can't fight with sword and shield as all of them did.
You watch tv, google on you computer, use cellphone, drive cars, fly airplanes, eat international food, etc. All things they never experienced.

What hellenic ways you follow?! But still somehow you feel connection with ancient Greeks? Tell me why?
I don't think the Greeks of Alexander era would be proud of you. Perhaps they would have a second thought if it is worth dying for future generations, who forgot about their traditions and faith, and pretty much changed everything they called Greek.


We also say Leonidas of Sparta and not Leonidas the Greek, that was common in the Hellenic World. Generally I find you sir very Anti-Hellenic :sad-2:. Did you think about the fact that it took a while to create Greek identity, to unite different city states and provinces, and keep them together long enough so they finally felt all Greeks? For that reason there is a big chance that before Alexander not many Macedonians felt Greek, nor Greeks considered Macedonians Greek. Did you check my question about Olympics and Macedonians?

Echetlaeus
28-04-14, 01:23
Cannot be what?
When looking at the Macedonians and North Greek genetics, not many of them came. Big majority of genes are local, therefore Macedonians in origin.

What does that mean to follow Hellenicon?


Because you can't read it. It can tell you a lot about your health and predispositions. It can find your missing cousins, or natural parents. It can show your place of origin and migrations. It can tell you if you will go bold or not. In the future when we figure it out completely it will tell you how to live to live long and healthy.

What Hellenic ways?
You already don't have religion of your ancestors, the hellenistic religion. Alexander would call you a pagan. You dress way different than Greeks of his era. You speak modern Greek with modern accent which wouldn't be understandable for them. You know nothing about everyday life of Iron Age peasants (which were 90% of populations back then). You like different music than they did. You eat different food/dishes. You can't dance the way they did. You can't fight with sword and shield as all of them did.
You watch tv, google on you computer, use cellphone, drive cars, fly airplanes, eat international food, etc. All things they never experienced.

What hellenic ways you follow?! But still somehow you feel connection with ancient Greeks? Tell me why?
I don't think the Greeks of Alexander era would be proud of you. Perhaps they would have a second thought if it is worth dying for future generations, who forgot about their traditions and faith, and pretty much changed everything they called Greek.

Did you think about the fact that it took a while to create Greek identity, to unite different city states and provinces, and keep them together long enough so they finally felt all Greeks? For that reason there is a big chance that before Alexander not many Macedonians felt Greek, nor Greeks considered Macedonians Greek. Did you check my question about Olympics and Macedonians?


You don't get my point about the Hellenicon. Do your homework first and then you will, probably, understand my statement about genome.

FYI: You just see the tree, a kind of genome nerd, and not the whole forest.

The name Hellenes, probably comes from Epirus (from one of its tribes) who was considered half-barbaric from city-state like entities in ancient Greece (see Athens and Thebes). Does it mean that the name is not also Greek.

Migration is important, I understand. With that in mind we are all Africans (see Lucy 4 million years ago). But human societies evolve as does language, but people tend to continue living in the same ethnic groups.

The Greeks did not want to change their religion, they were forced by the Romans to do so. So it was a violent procedure.

Alexander I of Macedon participated in the games, that was long before Philip became the ruler of the whole Greece. So ΕΣΤΙΝ ΟΥΝ ΕΛΛΑΣ ΚΑΙ Η ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ according to Strabo. These answer your questions irate bro.

Before the unification Spartans were Spartans, Athenians, Thebans, etc. But they :

- spoke the same language
- worshiped the same gods
- had the same customs and manners

and those 3 is what it matters and comprises the Hellinikon.

And tell us your ethnicity :annoyed:, I suspect Turk, Fyromian, Albanian or Bulgar.

LeBrok
28-04-14, 01:53
- spoke the same language
- worshiped the same gods
- had the same customs and manners

and those 3 is what it matters and comprises the Hellinikon. Well, you don't fit the Hellenikon, or Hellenic culture in general. But somehow you feel the connection with ancient Greeks. How?


And tell us your ethnicity :annoyed:, I suspect Turk, Fyromian, Albanian or Bulgar. I'm Polish. We are so anti Greek, lol.

Echetlaeus
28-04-14, 02:03
Well, you don't fit the Hellenikon, or Hellenic culture in general. But somehow you feel the connection with ancient Greeks. How?

I'm Polish. We are so anti Greek, lol.


- Modern Greek is a natural evolution of Ancient Greek. All modern Greek words have a base in the ancient language.
- We don't worship the same Gods, I said why. But we have the same religion.
- Nowadays customs and manners are almost identical as those of the ancients. You have to read books about that.

Even some proverbs are the same.

As a Pole, you have the tendency to be in favour of your slavic bros, Fyromians and Bulgars.

Sile
28-04-14, 03:52
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=4_MgAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA5&dq=alexander+the+great+spoke?&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jphdU_zlLoL2lAWz94DIBA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=alexander%20the%20great%20spoke%3F&f=false

page 5.........many sites say the same thing

Nobody1
28-04-14, 09:43
The name Hellenes, probably comes from Epirus (from one of its tribes) who was considered half-barbaric from city-state like entities in ancient Greece (see Athens and Thebes). Does it mean that the name is not also Greek

Herodotus records (I/LVI) that Ionians were Pelasgians and Dorians were the Hellenic stock and describes (I/CXLV) how the Achaeans drove/defeated the Ionians (Pelasgians) and Pausanias (V/I) in turn how the Dorians drove/defeated the Achaeans; And judging by Homer the Achaeans are representative for Mycenaean Greece; And the Attic Pelasgians changed into Hellenic (Herodotus I/LVIII);

Echetlaeus
28-04-14, 13:19
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=4_MgAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA5&dq=alexander+the+great+spoke?&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jphdU_zlLoL2lAWz94DIBA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=alexander%20the%20great%20spoke%3F&f=false

page 5.........many sites say the same thing

How do they know that this so called Macedonian language was not understood by the rest of the Greeks? It also states that Epirotan was different from Greek? WTF, when Epirotan is proven to be Doric Greek.

And do not forget the ego of Athens, for them only the Athenians were proper Greeks. In an Athenians mind what was Greece is only Attica, Thebes, and Peloponnese.

But Macedonians come from Hercules and Epirotans from Neoptolemus. Why those people would admire Heracles and Achilles, should they not be Greeks. Why Achilles would go to Dodona to pray to Zeus?

Echetlaeus
28-04-14, 13:25
Herodotus records (I/LVI) that Ionians were Pelasgians and Dorians were the Hellenic stock and describes (I/CXLV) how the Achaeans drove/defeated the Ionians (Pelasgians) and Pausanias (V/I) in turn how the Dorians drove/defeated the Achaeans; And judging by Homer the Achaeans are representative for Mycenaean Greece; And the Attic Pelasgians changed into Hellenic (Herodotus I/LVIII);

Read also Aristotle. After all Epirus and Peloponnese are inhabited by Dorians (after the Pelasgians).
But traces of Pelasgians are found in almost the whole Greece, these people were either Greeks or pro-Hellenic. Nobody knows for sure.

LeBrok
28-04-14, 16:32
How do they know that this so called Macedonian language was not understood by the rest of the Greeks? It also states that Epirotan was different from Greek? WTF, when Epirotan is proven to be Doric Greek.

And do not forget the ego of Athens, for them only the Athenians were proper Greeks. In an Athenians mind what was Greece is only Attica, Thebes, and Peloponnese.

But Macedonians come from Hercules and Epirotans from Neoptolemus. Why those people would admire Heracles and Achilles, should they not be Greeks. Why Achilles would go to Dodona to pray to Zeus?
Being Polish I can easily understand Slovak and Ukrainian languages. All 3 are Christian and admire same God and Mary. Does it make them all Polish?

Nobody1
28-04-14, 16:51
Read also Aristotle. After all Epirus and Peloponnese are inhabited by Dorians (after the Pelasgians).
But traces of Pelasgians are found in almost the whole Greece, these people were either Greeks or pro-Hellenic. Nobody knows for sure.

Yes that is exactly the point and goes without saying Greece = Dorians (Hellenes) and Ionians/Attic/Aeolians (Pelasgians) but if the Dorians are the Hellenes than who where the Achaeans? Linear B inscription to Euboean Greek inscription has a gap of ~400 years (the Greek dark-ages / Bronze-age collapse) ?Dorian invasion? and from where;

Pelasgians are the pre-Indo-European folks all over the East Aegean/Mediterranean (Greece, Crete, Lemnos, wests Anatolia and migrated to Italy) and acc. to Strabo (V/II) the Pelasgians of Athens came from a back migration of Tyrrhenia (under Maleos) to Athens - which is besides Lemnos the other place Thucydides (IV/CIX) records the Tyrrhene Pelasgians;

Echetlaeus
28-04-14, 17:20
Yes that is exactly the point and goes without saying Greece = Dorians (Hellenes) and Ionians/Attic/Aeolians (Pelasgians) but if the Dorians are the Hellenes than who where the Achaeans? Linear B inscription to Euboean Greek inscription has a gap of ~400 years (the Greek dark-ages / Bronze-age collapse) ?Dorian invasion? and from where;

Pelasgians are the pre-Indo-European folks all over the East Aegean/Mediterranean (Greece, Crete, Lemnos, wests Anatolia and migrated to Italy) and acc. to Strabo (V/II) the Pelasgians of Athens came from a back migration of Tyrrhenia (under Maleos) to Athens - which is besides Lemnos the other place Thucydides (IV/CIX) records the Tyrrhene Pelasgians;

I wish we had a time machine, so we would know for sure !

Echetlaeus
28-04-14, 17:24
Being Polish I can easily understand Slovak and Ukrainian languages. All 3 are Christian and admire same God and Mary. Does it make them all Polish?

More or less you are the same people, apart from the Germanic/Prussian part of Poland. You have the same origin. But Greece is a small place, hence it has more homogeneity than Poland.
After all we call ourselves a nation without brothers. And it is true, we don't have other brothers. No one else speaks our language ...

LeBrok
29-04-14, 03:17
More or less you are the same people, apart from the Germanic/Prussian part of Poland. You have the same origin. and yet they are all separate nations. You should apply this to ancient Greece. You don't need to travel in time to understand political foundations. Just look around and open your mind to the knowledge.


But Greece is a small place, hence it has more homogeneity than Poland. Genetics says that there are substantial differences between North and South Greece. I'm yet to see genetic variances in Poland, so I don't know. If your origin is from Northern Greece it is most likely that you are genetically more related to people from Fyrom and Albania than to your "brothers" from South Greece. If you want some clarification please PM Dorianfinder (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/29455-Dorianfinder), he is a very smart Greek, I hope you'll trust him.
I hope this give you something to think about. Perhaps national heroes, like Alexander, could be shared and cherished by more than one country? Are you a sharing type bro?
You can use Alexander to bring two nations closer, to build peace and make more bros.


After all we call ourselves a nation without brothers. And it is true, we don't have other brothers. No one else speaks our language ... Why do you have to speak greek to have brothers and sisters? Just open your mind and your heart to the world bro.
You speak english, you have opportunity to make friends around the globe, especially in Balkans, and you are wasting this opportunity every day. You'll die complaining that you are surrounded by enemies only, self made enemies.

Echetlaeus
29-04-14, 03:22
and yet they are all separate nations. You should apply this to ancient Greece. You don't need to travel in time to understand political foundations. Just look around and open your mind to the knowledge.

Genetics says that there are substantial differences between North and South Greece. I'm yet to see genetic variances in Poland, so I don't know. If your origin is from Northern Greece it is most likely that you are genetically more related to people from Fyrom and Albania than to your "brothers" from South Greece. If you want some clarification please PM Dorianfinder (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/29455-Dorianfinder), he is a very smart Greek, I hope you'll trust him.
I hope this give you something to think about. Perhaps national heroes, like Alexander, could be shared and cherished by more than one country? Are you a sharing type bro?
You can use Alexander to bring two nations closer, to build peace and make more bros.

Why do you have to speak greek to have brothers and sisters? Just open your mind and your heart to the world bro.
You speak english, you have opportunity to make friends around the globe, especially in Balkans, and you are wasting this opportunity every day. You'll die complaining that you are surrounded by enemies only, self made enemies.

I rest my case, we do not understand each other.

P.S. Alexander wanted to unite the whole world. In a previous post when I talked about the Hellenikon, this is what I meant. Genetics do not matter much, when you have been educated with the Greek way. Nobody will blame you, even if you are from Africa, when you have been raised with the Greek ways.

I know, everybody hates me in this forum! And I know what you will say, because of my choices. Yes, I accept that ...

Ua'Ronain
29-04-14, 04:10
After all we call ourselves a nation without brothers. And it is true, we don't have other brothers. No one else speaks our language ...

I know you may not consider the rest of the west "brothers" but what we know as the western world started in Greece. Democracy, the Olympics, art, drama, philosophy and science/math. Just because we do not speak Greek does not mean we don't share some things in common; you just seem to want to exclude us from your "group" because we are different. Well brother the world would be a dull place if we were all the same and it is a damn shame you cannot come to grips with the fact that we do have a lot in common. I know I am sort of a philhellene and I grew up reading about ancient Greece and dreaming of Athens, Sparta, Thebes and what life would have been like back then. I dont think any one here hates you either, I can tell that you are still young and brash and have a lot of mellowing out to do ;)

Echetlaeus
29-04-14, 04:40
I know you may not consider the rest of the west "brothers" but what we know as the western world started in Greece. Democracy, the Olympics, art, drama, philosophy and science/math. Just because we do not speak Greek does not mean we don't share some things in common; you just seem to want to exclude us from your "group" because we are different. Well brother the world would be a dull place if we were all the same and it is a damn shame you cannot come to grips with the fact that we do have a lot in common. I know I am sort of a philhellene and I grew up reading about ancient Greece and dreaming of Athens, Sparta, Thebes and what life would have been like back then. I dont think any one here hates you either, I can tell that you are still young and brash and have a lot of mellowing out to do ;)

Thanks bro, I appreciate that !

Aberdeen
29-04-14, 04:47
I rest my case, we do not understand each other.

P.S. Alexander wanted to unite the whole world. In a previous post when I talked about the Hellenikon, this is what I meant. Genetics do not matter much, when you have been educated with the Greek way. Nobody will blame you, even if you are from Africa, when you have been raised with the Greek ways.

I know, everybody hates me in this forum! And I know what you will say, because of my choices. Yes, I accept that ...

"Nobody loves me, everyone hates me. I'm going to go out to the garden and eat worms." How sad for you. LOL.

When I read what LeBrok said, what I get out of it is this:

(1) Greek and Macedonian are probably linguistic cousins, in the same way that modern Polish and Ukranian are; and

(2) we now live in an international world, as you yourself have proven by your choice to study in the U.S., so lighten up with the nationalism, because you're using it to push away people who could be your friends, whether or not you realize it.

And if that is in fact what he was saying, I agree with him.

Echetlaeus
29-04-14, 04:50
"Nobody loves me, everyone hates me. I'm going to go out to the garden and eat worms." How sad for you. LOL.

When I read what LeBrok said, what I get out of it is this:

(1) Greek and Macedonian are probably linguistic cousins, in the same way that modern Polish and Ukranian are; and

(2) we now live in an international world, as you yourself have proven by your choice to study in the U.S., so lighten up with the nationalism, because you're using it to push away people who could be your friends, whether or not you realize it.

And if that is in fact what he was saying, I agree with him.

OK bro, point taken!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRzhflMkGLg

dr_petreb
11-05-18, 14:54
First of all Myth conection is not scientific proof. Many people from the past admired many MYth and legends, even today, but that dosent mean that they were/are relatives. Few Roman imperators admired Alexander even try to look, walk and dressed like him but they were not relatives and Alexander was not his ancestor. Today Christians admired Jesus who was Hebrew. Does it means that all Christians are Hebrew? Many admired Rambo, Spiderman, Casandra or even Tex Viler and some of them give those names to their children.

LABERIA
11-05-18, 15:40
An ancient Greek statesman and orator named Demosthenes explained perfectly that an ancient Macedonian was not a Greek:

Demosthenes, Third Philippic 31, when he talk about Philip:

"...he is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."

Gheg
09-06-18, 01:40
The difference between Macedonians and Greeks is made very clear by Polybius in Book XXVII 10:

"What happened in the case of Perseus in regard to the feeling of the multitude was very similar to this. For if any one had pulled them up and asked them plainly, in so many words, whether they wished such great power to fall to one man, and were desirous of trying the effect of an utterly irresponsible despotism, I presume that they would have promptly bethought themselves, recanted all they had said, and gone to the other extreme of feeling. Or if some one had briefly recalled to their recollection all the tyrannical acts of the royal house of Macedonia from which the Greeks had suffered, and all the benefits they had received from the Romans, I imagine they would have at once and decisively changed their minds. However, for the present, at the first burst of thoughtless enthusiasm, the people showed unmistakable signs of joy at the news, being delighted at the unlooked-for appearance of a champion able to cope with Rome. I say this much to prevent anyone, in ignorance of human nature, from bringing a rash charge of ingratitude against the Greeks for the feelings which they displayed at that time..."