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Maciamo
06-05-14, 15:20
Here is an article I wrote recently about uploading one's mind into a computer to achieve immortality, like Johhny Depp in the new film Transcendence.

Mind uploading won't lead to immortality

http://www.vitamodularis.org/images/design/VM-mind_uploading.jpg (http://www.vitamodularis.org/articles/mind_uploading_will_not_lead_to_immortality.shtml)

Feel free to comment.

Echetlaeus
06-05-14, 20:16
Here is an article I wrote recently about uploading one's mind into a computer to achieve immortality, like Johhny Depp in the new film Transcendence.

Mind uploading won't lead to immortality (http://www.vitamodularis.org/articles/mind_uploading_will_not_lead_to_immortality.shtml)

Feel free to comment.


You made some good points in your article. I have to point however that in the future, "memory" will play a vital role.
After all scientists say that even our universe is based on memory and data.

Japanese were always first in these kind of stuff.

Check the Ghost in the Shell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell).

Ike
07-05-14, 00:53
Even assuming that we found a way to transfer the consciousness from the brain to a computer, how could we avoid consciousness being copied to other computers, recreating the philosophical problem of splitting the self.

Consciousness, can't be uploaded. The exact copy of yours will always have a new consciousness of it's own.
So, mind-uploading - probable, but consciousness replication impossible.

LeBrok
07-05-14, 06:59
Mind uploading won't lead to immortality

Uploading the content of one's mind, including one's personality, memories and emotions, into a computer may one day be possible, but it won't transfer our biological consciousness and won't make us immortal.Uploading one's mind into a computer, a concept popularized by the 2014 movie Transcendence starring Johnny Depp, is likely to become at least partially possible, but won't lead to immortality. Major objections (http://io9.com/you-ll-probably-never-upload-your-mind-into-a-computer-474941498) have been raised regarding the feasibility of mind uploading. Even if we could surpass every technical obstacle and successfully copy the totality of one's mind, emotions, memories, personality and intellect into a machine, that would be just that: a copy, which itself can be copied again and again on various computers.

Uploading memory, if realized one day, will be the easy part. The functionality and complexity of a brain is just astronomical. We have 100 billion neurons with 100 trillion connections between neurons, and these are not random connections, the connections are well organized and this precise placement of neurons and architecture of all connections is what makes us humans. Manute variations of brain architecture make us all individual and a little different.
Now try to program this computer with our memories, according to this 100 trillion connections, so it reads our uploaded memories and behaves accordingly the way we would. We should mention that even if this is accomplished in a thousand years we still are missing emotional part of human. We just don't really know how we would start building a computer that feels something. We don't even know how is it that we feel. We know the technical part except the creation of feelings.
And even if in the far future all of this is accomplished there is no chance, no guarantee that one can exist forever, as Maciamo voiced in this article.

Anyway, at the end of a day it will be much easier and cheaper to clone a new copy of our brain and download memories and experiences. Even though it wouldn't be exact copy, at least it would be a functional facsimile.

The best mind transplant would happen when teleport is invented. Teleport can recreate every atom, neuron, connection plus fix our DNA to young again status. We would just "wake" up in our new brain, and whole new body to live another 100 years. This is if teleport is ever invented. Probably the only way to recreate true you. The Star Trek way.


Some people think that mind uploading necessarily requires to leave one's biological body. But there is no conscensus about that. Uploading means copying. When a file is uploaded on the Internet, it doesn't get deleted at the source. It's just a copy
Yes, it is basically all copying. The twist is that your copy would be conscious too. You as copy would think that you are the original you. Probably you would argue with your copy who is the real you. The only solution would be to kill one of you to get singular continuity.


The best analogy to understand that is cloning. Identical twins are an example of human clones that already live among us. Identical twins share the same DNA, yet nobody would argue that they also share a single consciousness. Sort of, the twins are not 100% identical. They have various mutations picked up during cell divisions, plus mistakes in methylation therefore gene expressions. And of course they have different life experiences and memories will make them unique too.


If the conscious self doesn't leave the biologically body (i.e. "die") when transferring mind and consciousness, it would basically mean that that individual would feel in two places at the same time: in the biological body and in the computer. Ture. Our consciousness is attached to physical state of our brain. Cannot be disattached and it will die together with our physical brain.


At best we could hope to living for several hundreds or thousands years, assuming that nothing kills us before. There is probably a limit how long people would want to live. After few hundred of years everybody would be bored to death (pun intended), experienced almost everything and seeing same things over and over again. At least grand majority of people.


However there is no evidence that consciousness or self-awareness are merely information that can be transferred since consciousness cannot be divided in two or many parts.Probably it can. There is 7 billion conscious people on this planet. Technically divided or rather copied consciousness can exist, but it won't be the exactly original one.


Consciousness is most likely tied to neurons in a certain part of the brain (which may well include the thalamus). These neurons are maintained throughtout life, from birth to death, without being regenerated like other cells in the body, which explains the experienced feeling of continuity Actually there are stem cells in our brain and they turn into new brain cells through our life, although in much slower process than in rest of the body. Our consciousness (the I) is slowly changing through life too. It has the true beginning in first at conception and through first couple of years of our life, then evolves slowly till our death. Every night we go to bed, during our sleep our brain runs our day memories, prunes not important and solidifies the once we might need, by pruning and building new neuronal connections. We wake up in the morning (boot up our brain) and we are not exactly the same person we went to bed last night. Every morning our consciousness is a little different.

Maciamo
07-05-14, 11:42
Consciousness, can't be uploaded. The exact copy of yours will always have a new consciousness of it's own.
So, mind-uploading - probable, but consciousness replication impossible.

That is also how I see it, but I faced a lot of disagreement on that point from the transhumanist community.

Maciamo
07-05-14, 12:20
Sort of, the twins are not 100% identical. They have various mutations picked up during cell divisions, plus mistakes in methylation therefore gene expressions. And of course they have different life experiences and memories will make them unique too.
...
Actually there are stem cells in our brain and they turn into new brain cells through our life, although in much slower process than in rest of the body. Our consciousness (the I) is slowly changing through life too. It has the true beginning in first at conception and through first couple of years of our life, then evolves slowly till our death. Every night we go to bed, during our sleep our brain runs our day memories, prunes not important and solidifies the once we might need, by pruning and building new neuronal connections. We wake up in the morning (boot up our brain) and we are not exactly the same person we went to bed last night. Every morning our consciousness is a little different.

Yes, obviously. I didn't mention it to avoid straying too far off topic. But a small amount of mutations also occurs in our body during our lifetime. 400 of them were recently identified (http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-04-hundreds-genetic-mutations-healthy-blood.html) in a 115-year old woman. Interestingly those mutations are not evenly spread throughout the body's cells, and are usually absent in neurons since these cells don't get replaced.

As for the stem cells regenerating our neurons, this happens in very specific parts of the brain, like the cerebellum, which probably aren't linked to consciousness.

I think what you mean when you say that we feel a bit different when we wake up every morning is that we have gained experience by rewiring our brain. This affects the way we feel and our personality, but I wouldn't say that it alters our self-awareness. However I would agree that our self-awareness/consciousness gets dimmer as we get older because neurons die in the parts of the brain involved in consciousness (like the thalamus).



There is probably a limit how long people would want to live. After few hundred of years everybody would be bored to death (pun intended), experienced almost everything and seeing same things over and over again. At least grand majority of people.

Not necessarily. If we can stay physically fit and sharp-minded, the accumulated knowledge over hundreds of years would create a de facto new type of humans far more knowledgeable and creative than younger humans (under 100). Nowadays older people lose their memory and agility of mind, but if this can be preserved older people will have a tremendous advantage over others, thanks to the accrued experience and knowledge. A 50-year old would feel like a child from a 200-year-old's point of view.

This could lead to the creation of new social groups based not on social class, ethnicity or religion as is often the case today, but by level of accumulated knowledge and experience, determined mostly by age (and one's desire to learn). Older people would become increasingly well aware of the workings of the universe and become more creative too, making life more interesting. What makes people want to die now is the decline of one's health and mental faculties, and the boredom resulting from the inactivity and withdrawal from society caused by senescence. If you remove senescence from the equation life should theoretically only get better as one gains knowledge, experience, friends, interests and broaden their horizon of possibilities.

Some will argue that with neural implants we will all have access to the same shared knowledge in the cloud. But that is already the case. Anybody with an Internet connection can search the web for answers to their questions. With personal assistant like Siri on steroids (more like IBM's Watson), we won't even have to search. We'll just ask a question orally and get an answer immediately. Then with brain-to-computer interfaces, we'll have the answer just by wondering about something in our head. However, the knowledge itself will remain in the cloud or in bionic memory chips linked to our brain, as there isn't enough space in our biological brain to keep all the world's knowledge. In other words we will always be reliant on on biological brain's ability to learn, classify information, analyse it, think about its implications and create new ideas from the data.

ebAmerican
07-05-14, 18:40
Very interesting article Maciamo - thanks for sharing!

I agree with most of what others have posted. It is very unlikely that consciousness can be transferred. I have doubts that memory without some type of interpreter could be transferred as well. Modern interpreters would be cameras, and other video and audio recorders. One would have to video record their entire life from birth to death (every single moment) and upload it to some type of computer that could analyze and build a personality profile. The profile could be linked to some sort of advanced AI system that could logically perform tasks. The artificial profile might seem to have consciousness, but as LeBrok pointed out only the deceased and computer would ever know if the consciousness transferred. Seeing that the deceased is dead and you can't ask him, there is no way to know for sure.

I don't know if people are familiar with how a quantum computer works, but it uses carbon based material (amino acids) to compute instead of diodes/transistors. IMO, our brains are quantum computers. I have a feeling that our connection to the quantum world plays a role in what we call consciousness. It may be the very act of creating a complex quantum computer that creates consciousness or the sense of consciousness. Consciousness may be directly tied to the system and changing the system would create a new consciousness.

Engel
07-05-14, 20:13
Interesting topic and interesting reply from le brok.
But by the way we have been living in a time loop all along
like what is will be again.
Welcome to the complexities of God's creation

LeBrok
08-05-14, 04:59
Very interesting article Maciamo - thanks for sharing!

I agree with most of what others have posted. It is very unlikely that consciousness can be transferred. I have doubts that memory without some type of interpreter could be transferred as well. Modern interpreters would be cameras, and other video and audio recorders. One would have to video record their entire life from birth to death (every single moment) and upload it to some type of computer that could analyze and build a personality profile. The profile could be linked to some sort of advanced AI system that could logically perform tasks. The artificial profile might seem to have consciousness, but as LeBrok pointed out only the deceased and computer would ever know if the consciousness transferred. Seeing that the deceased is dead and you can't ask him, there is no way to know for sure.

I don't know if people are familiar with how a quantum computer works, but it uses carbon based material (amino acids) to compute instead of diodes/transistors. IMO, our brains are quantum computers. I have a feeling that our connection to the quantum world plays a role in what we call consciousness. It may be the very act of creating a complex quantum computer that creates consciousness or the sense of consciousness. Consciousness may be directly tied to the system and changing the system would create a new consciousness.
All thing is so complex that I don't see any attempt of consciousness transfer for good thousand years. And I'm not sure who would like to live inside a machine? Personally I would only attempt my mind transfer to a new clone of me. I don't believe it would be me, continues I, but only done from desperation to prolong my life.

Ike
09-05-14, 02:41
I don't know if people are familiar with how a quantum computer works, but it uses carbon based material (amino acids) to compute instead of diodes/transistors. IMO, our brains are quantum computers. I have a feeling that our connection to the quantum world plays a role in what we call consciousness. It may be the very act of creating a complex quantum computer that creates consciousness or the sense of consciousness. Consciousness may be directly tied to the system and changing the system would create a new consciousness.

The beauty of it is that consciousness has no quality, so there is nothing to be made :) That's why it can't be replicated :)

LeBrok
09-05-14, 05:19
The beauty of it is that consciousness has no quality, so there is nothing to be made :) That's why it can't be replicated :) With this logic consciousness would be the same, and at same level in every brain. And yet consciousness of Einstein was on very different level than consciousness of people with down syndrome, although by mass the brain and by number of neurons you wouldn't see the difference. The huge difference is in brain architecture, therefore written in genes, therefore physically made product (by mother and father).

Ike
09-05-14, 21:28
Are you sure that the consciousness of the two was different? If you were locked in a room without doors and windows your whole life, you wouldn't perceive sunshine your whole life, but it doesn't mean that you wouldn't be able to be conscious of it when they let you out. The same way, if we start with the assumption that a normal man can upgrade his mind to a whole new level that would let him perceive the reality in a different and more complex way, while retaining his old quality of consciousness which defines him as himself in his own mind, we can also upgrade a man with the Down syndrome all the way up to normal level, while retaining his consciousness.

Maybe the better term would be awareness, but not in a neurological kind of way, but more some spiritual (http://www.gpdawson.com/blog/2010/09/05/consciousness-and-awareness-whats-the-difference/)?

The concept is that you can upgrade the hardware and add more applications, but the Operating System stays the same. If you have a machine without CPU (a person with the down syndrome) or without a monitor (blind person) there is not much you can do with it. The lack of appropriate hardware doesn't mean that your OS (or a person) is badly designed itself. It just means that it wasn't given the opportunity to show it's true value.


Hm... many wild associations here :)

LeBrok
10-05-14, 06:32
Are you sure that the consciousness of the two was different? Why would you consider that they are the same? Because God created consciousness/sole and that's why it is always the same? God also creates whole person, and look at us... All the same?



If you were locked in a room without doors and windows your whole life, you wouldn't perceive sunshine your whole life, but it doesn't mean that you wouldn't be able to be conscious of it when they let you out. Every brain needs to grow up in a normal environment to get to full functionality. However in a brain, like in example of people with Down syndrome, the problem lies in faulty architecture, screwed up neuronal connections, and no amount of environmental stimuli will make it function normally.


we can also upgrade a man with the Down syndrome all the way up to normal level, while retaining his consciousness. You can't upgrade brain of man with Down syndrome to normal status. Do you have an example of such miraculous cure?


Maybe the better term would be awareness, but not in a neurological kind of way, but more some spiritual (http://www.gpdawson.com/blog/2010/09/05/consciousness-and-awareness-whats-the-difference/)? Except that spiritual is neurological. Do people with Down syndrome believe in god? Let's skip people with a very mild form of disease, who almost function normally. How conscious are people with late stage of Alzheimer? Dying brain cells spells end of consciousness.


The concept is that you can upgrade the hardware and add more applications, but the Operating System stays the same. If you have a machine without CPU (a person with the down syndrome) or without a monitor (blind person) there is not much you can do with it. The lack of appropriate hardware doesn't mean that your OS (or a person) is badly designed itself. It just means that it wasn't given the opportunity to show it's true value.
The hardware, the brain, is what makes us who we are, plus normal environment.
If we cut your amygdala (the emotion sector) from your brain, you will lose all your emotions. You won't care for your family, friends, god, life in general. You will still live and function automatically, but you won't care for anything. Your consciousness is drastically changed. We have clinical examples of people like these.

Ike
10-05-14, 17:05
Why would you consider that they are the same? Because God created consciousness/sole and that's why it is always the same? God also creates whole person, and look at us... All the same?
No, but because pure consciousness has no quality. Because there is nothing to it, there is nothing to differ.


Every brain needs to grow up in a normal environment to get to full functionality. However in a brain, like in example of people with Down syndrome, the problem lies in faulty architecture, screwed up neuronal connections, and no amount of environmental stimuli will make it function normally.
Yes. That's about physiology of the brain.


You can't upgrade brain of man with Down syndrome to normal status. Do you have an example of such miraculous cure?
No, that was piling up on the theories that once we break down (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Brain_Project) the brain map, we will be able to upgrade a normal human to a super human brain. I'm saying that if it can be done from 100% to 200%, it is very possible to do it with persons with Down syndrme from like 50 % to 100 %, making them normal persons. If there is no change in the consciousness level in the first example, which is logical to assume cause no one would undergo a procedure in which he'd lose his original consciousness, why would there be a difference in the second case?


Except that spiritual is neurological. Do people with Down syndrome believe in god? Let's skip people with a very mild form of disease, who almost function normally. How conscious are people with late stage of Alzheimer? Dying brain cells spells end of consciousness.
Well, I'm not an expert in that field, but the people that spent their whole lives in that field say that it isn't like that. I'm more inclined into believing them.


The hardware, the brain, is what makes us who we are, plus normal environment.
If we cut your amygdala (the emotion sector) from your brain, you will lose all your emotions. You won't care for your family, friends, god, life in general. You will still live and function automatically, but you won't care for anything. Your consciousness is drastically changed. We have clinical examples of people like these.
This is all about social consciousness. I'm not talking about that. Environmental awareness, and similar stuff. That's not what we must transfer in order to achieve immortality.
Take for example people with amnesia. That can retain the feeling of themself-ness, even if they become totally different persons. They can forget who their children are, who they love, what they believe into, their favorite team, but they'd still have that feeling of myself-ness which defines them as "same old I" in their own head.

LeBrok
10-05-14, 22:04
No, but because pure consciousness has no quality. Because there is nothing to it, there is nothing to differ. I have no idea on what grounds you can conclude this? Medical evidence, such as brain injuries, maldevelopment, experiments, point to the fact that brain functions (consciousness included) are strictly correlated to brain health, architecture or genetic factors. It exists only in realm of physical brain. Just point me to one example of consciousness existing without physical brain, and I agree that it is a thing by itself.
Although, even then you still would need to prove that they are all created equal.
Even Bible doesn't say that consciousness/soles are the same. I think, that your logic comes from a belief that loving and just God gave people equal soles, therefore consciousness. Am I right?




No, that was piling up on the theories that once we break down (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Brain_Project) the brain map, we will be able to upgrade a normal human to a super human brain. I'm saying that if it can be done from 100% to 200%, it is very possible to do it with persons with Down syndrme from like 50 % to 100 %, making them normal persons. If there is no change in the consciousness level in the first example, which is logical to assume cause no one would undergo a procedure in which he'd lose his original consciousness, why would there be a difference in the second case? Oh ok, you were talking about "brain" transfer, consciousness uploading to a new brain or computer.
I thought we pretty much agreed that this would have been a different "person" when uploaded, and original consciousness would have been deleted. But yes, if it was possible, the new person could have much improved abilities and "brighter" consciousness.



Well, I'm not an expert in that field, but the people that spent their whole lives in that field say that it isn't like that. I'm more inclined into believing them. Same as with consciousness, spirituality is not proven to exist beside human brain, and using your terms, it doesn't have quality by itself. It is a function of a human brain, therefore will vary in form and intensity between humans.


This is all about social consciousness. I'm not talking about that. Environmental awareness, and similar stuff. That's not what we must transfer in order to achieve immortality.
Take for example people with amnesia. That can retain the feeling of themself-ness, even if they become totally different persons. They can forget who their children are, who they love, what they believe into, their favorite team, but they'd still have that feeling of myself-ness which defines them as "same old I" in their own head. We don't' really know what they feel at the end because they can't communicate. The brain is dying, organs are shutting down, people are losing awareness, pattern recognition, memory and consciousness is getting more limited till it goes completely. At the end few automatic functions are left, and then it is all gone.

Look at this table of brain power:
Mouse - 71 million neurons - 10 to power of 11 synapses
Cat - 1 billion neurons - 10 to power of 13 synapses
Human - 85 billion neurons - up to a quadrillion synapses

Just these numbers of sheer brain power of human being can explain why people are more conscious than animals about everything, including our own existence and abstract thinking. If our consciousness or even spirituality were "qualities" by themselves, why would we need to have big brains and of strictly defined architecture? It shouldn't matter.

Ike
11-05-14, 00:48
I have no idea on what grounds you can conclude this? Medical evidence, such as brain injuries, maldevelopment, experiments, point to the fact that brain functions (consciousness included) are strictly correlated to brain health, architecture or genetic factors. It exists only in realm of physical brain. Just point me to one example of consciousness existing without physical brain, and I agree that it is a thing by itself.

This is the major thing that we disagree about, and the source of our mutual misinterpretation of the term consciousness. My explanation is below....



Although, even then you still would need to prove that they are all created equal. Even Bible doesn't say that consciousness/soles are the same. I think, that your logic comes from a belief that loving and just God gave people equal soles, therefore consciousness. Am I right?

Not quite. My idea is that consciousness is the base. It is pure nothing and it has only the power to be conscious when it has some input. Input comes from the "assets" that are material. Whether it's a cat's brain, human brain or a damaged brain. Input comes from our five senses which are combined more inside the brain. Depending on brain power and it's complexity we can have different perception of the world around us. Once the living form dies, the consciousness leaves the body and is looking for a new host. All the knowledge and memories of the previous "life" was stored in the physical brain of the deceased and is therefor lost. It cannot be transfered further into a new life.

Of course, you're totally free to disagree with this, for I have no evidence for anything stated :) In fact, by definition I am using, consciousness is something that cannot ever be evident. It is the ultimate witness, which one cannot even be aware of. Because, once you get aware of it you'll know that it is no longer consciousness, but just an object of which you are aware. So as long as you're aware of it, it is not consciousness. Buddhist even say that if you strip yourself of all the things you're aware of, you'll be left with consciousness alone which is by their definition (if I understood them correctly!) your true self.

(p.s. This last definition will probably sound too raw for a true Buddhists. No misinterpretation was intended, I'm not quite familiar with your teaching and if there are mistakes feel free to correct me.)

apolloisomorphed
29-10-14, 16:18
your WRONG Maciamo. Follow me on Twitter at Apolloisomorphed at yung23_OG.

I myself have truly and illegally been brain mapped by the RCMP's Lisa Bertoldi., my own damn neighbor.. and now I find myself, literally, trapped in a VR game engine every single night.<br><br>I have had self awareness, and full blown consciousness as I sleep.

I am being tormented and punished for my thoughts, behaviour and anger felt towards this crime against humanity. I have a full story to tell here and I will be doing it as time approaches news years eve 2015. its hard to believe, but somehow.. its happened. I am truly the first human being to survive the upload process.

My rights were robbed from me two years ago and the RCMP officer who lives below me, began her own confidential "investigation" into my life on behalf of her friend who also worked in the RCMP because I grew up with him when I was in grade school... and he hated me and wanted acknowledgement for some stupid<span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: small; line-height: 18.200000762939453px;">&nbsp;pubescent&nbsp;</span>act 27 years ago... like I said.. there is an entire story to be told here. and its all TRUE.

apolloisomorphed
29-10-14, 16:21
If it weren't for my suffering at the hands of the RCMP in charge of this criminal technology based on a brain computer interface, I wouldn't even be posting this story. I am sick and tired of being their god damn video game character so I'm about to tell the world the entire story.

I have a full time job as a 3D modeler and am a very capable and coherent person. I have a LOT of answers and research done over the last year in the hopes I can figure out how this was done to myself.