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Haunter
07-05-14, 00:08
Dear Eupedia,

I have a question that I need answered very specifically, as I am trying to learn more about German genetics. Would it be correct to assume that South Germans are partly descended from Italian settlers who came during the settlement of the regions of Raetia during the time of the Roman Empire?

motzart
07-05-14, 01:58
The ancient Latin Romans of the city of Rome were a (primarily) J2 group, great thread on it here : eupedia(dot)com/forum/threads/28988-Haplogroup-J2-Romans-Christianity-and-Viticulture

Nobody1
07-05-14, 04:13
Dr. Erwin Keller -
http://www.bingo-ev.de/~ks451/archaeol/kelt-rom.htm (http://www.bingo-ev.de/%7Eks451/archaeol/kelt-rom.htm)

Keeping in mind with pre-Roman Raetia is the Cimbric/Teutonic track a century earlier and (most maybe) in strong connection with the Helvetic-dessert [Ptolemy II/X] scenario i.e. pre-Roman Agri Decumates; Or other example the Bohemian/Boii-dessert [Strabo VII/I-III] scenario; i.e. a largely dessert scenario of Raetia;

http://www.zdf.de/terra-x/die-roemer-erobern-raetien-5270496.html

By 110AD the Romans levied 8 cohors Raetiae and 4 cohors Vindelicorum - also some vexillationes and fortified the frontier at the Limes (Agri Decumates/Raetia) and Danube (Raetia/Noricum/Pannonia); But the grand finale ended with an exodus of all provincials [Romans/Noricans(Kelts)] into Italy after constant pressure/raids/destruction of the Alamanni/Rugii/Heruli as recorded by Eugippius - and moving out with Odoaker and his brother Hunulf once the Rugii were defeated; This episode deals mostly with Noricum but obviously also includes the towns of Raetia XXVIII After the destruction of the towns on the upper course of the Danube, all the people who had obeyed the warnings of Saint Severinus removed into the town of Lauriacum....XXX fugitives from the upper castles;

Raetia burials (late Empire / 4th-5th cen AD)
http://www.academia.edu/1782536/Verifying_archaeological_hypotheses_Investigations _on_origin_and_genealogical_lineages_of_a_privileg ed_society_in_Upper_Bavaria_from_Imperial_Roman_ti mes_Erding_Kletthamer_Feld_

LeBrok
07-05-14, 06:08
The ancient Latin Romans of the city of Rome were a (primarily) J2 group, great thread on it here : eupedia(dot)com/forum/threads/28988-Haplogroup-J2-Romans-Christianity-and-Viticulture
You've been misled. The author of this thread hypothesised about hg J2 being a leading force behind spreading viticulture. Even if they were it would have happened few thousands years before Romans. Romans were Indo-European tribe, and as such we can assume that they were heavy in R1b, same way descendants of celts (culturally related to Romans) were. To my knowledge no skeleton of true Roman was analyzed for uniparental haplogroups.
I suspect we will know that in couple of years.

motzart
07-05-14, 07:42
You've been misled. The author of this thread hypothesised about hg J2 being a leading force behind spreading viticulture. Even if they were it would have happened few thousands years before Romans. Romans were Indo-European tribe, and as such we can assume that they were heavy in R1b, same way descendants of celts (culturally related to Romans) were. To my knowledge no skeleton of true Roman was analyzed for uniparental haplogroups.
I suspect we will know that in couple of years.

I suspect it is you who are misled into believing the childish fantasy that r1b led some heroic rape conquest of europe in the bronze age. It's a pathetic theory that only sheds light on the insecurities of whoever cooked it up.

Haunter
07-05-14, 07:55
By 110AD the Romans levied 8 cohors Raetiae and 4 cohors Vindelicorum - also some vexillationes and fortified the frontier at the Limes (Agri Decumates/Raetia) and Danube (Raetia/Noricum/Pannonia); But the grand finale ended with an exodus of all provincials [Romans/Noricans(Kelts)] into Italy after constant pressure/raids/destruction of the Alamanni/Rugii/Heruli as recorded by Eugippius - and moving out with Odoaker and his brother Hunulf once the Rugii were defeated; This episode deals mostly with Noricum but obviously also includes the towns of Raetia XXVIII After the destruction of the towns on the upper course of the Danube, all the people who had obeyed the warnings of Saint Severinus removed into the town of Lauriacum....XXX fugitives from the upper castles;



I'm afraid this is raising more questions than it is answering. So you are saying that any people of Italic descent in Germany moved back to Italy after the Alemanni came in? So then it's more accurate to say that modern Italians can claim descent from these Raetic people - yes?

But isn't Lauriacum in Austria and not Italy? Or did they move even further South after that?

Now I'm quite confused.

LeBrok
07-05-14, 08:13
I suspect it is you who are misled into believing the childish fantasy that r1b led some heroic rape conquest of europe in the bronze age. It's a pathetic theory that only sheds light on the insecurities of whoever cooked it up.
When did I said that or even alluded to such things?

If you read carefully what I wrote again you will notice that I used term "assumed R1b".

Now, show me a research showing that Romans, as you claim without hesitation, were primarily J2?

Nobody1
07-05-14, 09:15
I'm afraid this is raising more questions than it is answering. So you are saying that any people of Italic descent in Germany moved back to Italy after the Alemanni came in? So then it's more accurate to say that modern Italians can claim descent from these Raetic people - yes?

Yes;
Them and the native provincials of Noricum and the Raetia refugees; Whether all moved back or had a diff. fate is not recorded (conflict spanned a good 200 years) until an exodus into Italy ~488AD when Odoaker's brother Hunulf picked them up after the Rugian campaign;


But isn't Lauriacum in Austria and not Italy? Or did they move even further South after that?

Yes to Italy from Noricum (hence the phrasing: exodus from Noricum to Italy);

Sile
07-05-14, 10:14
I'm afraid this is raising more questions than it is answering. So you are saying that any people of Italic descent in Germany moved back to Italy after the Alemanni came in? So then it's more accurate to say that modern Italians can claim descent from these Raetic people - yes?

But isn't Lauriacum in Austria and not Italy? Or did they move even further South after that?

Now I'm quite confused.

you do realise there where no germanic people south of the danube river while the Roman empire existed in the west. Unless they where part of the roman mercenary troops.

modern bavaria, swabian lands, austria , tyrol became germanized after ~400AD ..........and they where not italians either, they where remnants of celts, raetic, ladins, norici, illyrians, pannonians etc

Haunter
07-05-14, 19:10
Yes;
Them and the native provincials of Noricum and the Raetia refugees; Whether all moved back or had a diff. fate is not recorded (conflict spanned a good 200 years) until an exodus into Italy ~488AD when Odoaker's brother Hunulf picked them up after the Rugian campaign;

Thank you for your answer - are there any texts I can read about this in?

Nobody1
07-05-14, 20:36
Thank you for your answer - are there any texts I can read about this in?

The main (contemporary) source is Eugippius;

Haunter
07-05-14, 21:37
Would you happen to have a link?

Nobody1
08-05-14, 02:13
Would you happen to have a link?

Of course i do;

Eugippius - (life: late5th-early6th cen AD)
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/severinus_02_text.htm#62

If you want to get a more good insight into post-Roman Germanic societies than you have to look into the Laws (codexes) of these realms; For the codexes reveal a lot about the social structure of that society; For example the Lex Salica of the Franks and Lex Burgundionum have passages (laws/regulations) for the Germanic pop. as well as the Romanic (Roman/Gallo-Roman) pop. which is an indicator which pops. still existed and how significant;

An aspect is also that the pre-existing pops. of the Agri Decumates and Raetia were very scarce (desserts/Einöden) and the provinces consisted much of Roman military (forts/camps/castles) which were gradually abandoned (3rd-5th cen AD); Other than Noricum which had a strong pre-Roman Keltic population hence it still existed (despite no Roman military) long after the West Roman Empire collapsed and just abandoned with Odoaker;

Haunter
08-05-14, 18:24
Thank you, this has been most helpful.

Did any other populations return to Italy and contribute to its genetic makeup in this manner?

Nobody1
08-05-14, 19:43
Thank you, this has been most helpful.

Did any other populations return to Italy and contribute to its genetic makeup in this manner?

Not recorded and doubtful; The evacuation/migration from Noricum in 488AD is the only one recorded and seems to be a very isolated/special event in those times; What genetic impact the Noricans of Odoakers evacuation had on Italy is not known; In Eugippius it is informed that they were scattered all over Italy (not concentrated in on specific area) thus impossible to properly determine their impact and how many were left to evacuate is the other question;

Also keeping in mind however that the other provinces who had a strong Native (pre-Roman) pop. remained largely intact as such; As in the cases of prov. Britannia (which the Romans abandoned) but the native pop. remained (just getting pushed more west and some migrating into Armorica hence Brittany) or prov. Gallia whichs Gauls/Gallo-Roman pop. still remained a/the force in the Merovingian realm and the same goes for all other provinces that still had an intact population;

But the Agri Decumates and Raetia Vindelicia were scarcely populated directly before the Romans emerged (post#3) and they were frontier provinces and once the military abandoned it not much was left; A reason the Agri Decumates and Raetia Vindelicia did not have a strong (direct) pre-Roman pop. is most likely due to the Cimbric/Teutonic track a century before the Romans emerged; We know from Ptolemy (II/X) of the Helvetic-dessert in the later Agri Decumates and from Julius Caesar (De.Bel.Gal. VI/XXIII) that it was custom (greatest glory) amongst the Germanic people to utterly waste the enemies lands (desserts) or what we know from Strabo (VII/II) 'And he goes off to say that in earlier times the Boii dwelt in the Hercynian Forest, and that the Cimbri made a sally against this place, but on being repulsed by the Boii, went down to the Ister and the country of the Scordiscan Galatae, then to the country of the Teuristae and Taurisci (these, too, Galatae), and then to the country of the Helvetii men rich in gold but peaceable; however, when the Helvetii saw that the wealth which the Cimbri had got from their robberies surpassed that of their own country, they, and particularly their tribes of Tigyreni and of Toygeni, were so excited that they sallied forth with the Cimbri' which would correspond to Eutropius (V/I) that the track which reached the Rhone in 105BC was of Cimbri/Teutones/Tigurini/Ambrones and described as tribes from both Germanic and Gaulish;

Either way this could explain (Cimbric/Teutonic track) the scarcity in population between Rhine and Danube and maybe also between Alps and Danube;

Sile
08-05-14, 21:53
Not recorded and doubtful; The evacuation/migration from Noricum in 488AD is the only one recorded and seems to be a very isolated/special event in those times; What genetic impact the Noricans of Odoakers evacuation had on Italy is not known; In Eugippius it is informed that they were scattered all over Italy (not concentrated in on specific area) thus impossible to properly determine their impact and how many were left to evacuate is the other question;

Also keeping in mind however that the other provinces who had a strong Native (pre-Roman) pop. remained largely intact as such; As in the cases of prov. Britannia (which the Romans abandoned) but the native pop. remained (just getting pushed more west and some migrating into Armorica hence Brittany) or prov. Gallia whichs Gauls/Gallo-Roman pop. still remained a/the force in the Merovingian realm and the same goes for all other provinces that still had an intact population;

But the Agri Decumates and Raetia Vindelicia were scarcely populated directly before the Romans emerged (post#3) and they were frontier provinces and once the military abandoned it not much was left; A reason the Agri Decumates and Raetia Vindelicia did not have a strong (direct) pre-Roman pop. is most likely due to the Cimbric/Teutonic track a century before the Romans emerged; We know from Ptolemy (II/X) of the Helvetic-dessert in the later Agri Decumates and from Julius Caesar (De.Bel.Gal. VI/XXIII) that it was custom (greatest glory) amongst the Germanic people to utterly waste the enemies lands (desserts) or what we know from Strabo (VII/II) 'And he goes off to say that in earlier times the Boii dwelt in the Hercynian Forest, and that the Cimbri made a sally against this place, but on being repulsed by the Boii, went down to the Ister and the country of the Scordiscan Galatae, then to the country of the Teuristae and Taurisci (these, too, Galatae), and then to the country of the Helvetii men rich in gold but peaceable; however, when the Helvetii saw that the wealth which the Cimbri had got from their robberies surpassed that of their own country, they, and particularly their tribes of Tigyreni and of Toygeni, were so excited that they sallied forth with the Cimbri' which would correspond to Eutropius (V/I) that the track which reached the Rhone in 105BC was of Cimbri/Teutones/Tigurini/Ambrones and described as tribes from both Germanic and Gaulish;

Either way this could explain (Cimbric/Teutonic track) the scarcity in population between Rhine and Danube and maybe also between Alps and Danube;

IIRC, there was a genetic paper on the cimbri especially the 7 cimbri towns of the Veneto and that the conclusion is that genetic traits where not germanic ( nor danish from jutland). The conclusion was that they migrated via modern salzburg.

Haunter
09-05-14, 05:46
Thank you for the concise answers yet again Nobody1, I see your point now.

Slightly off-topic question, but it has occurred to me: what about possible Roman descent in the provinces now located in West Germany? Or did the Romans not make much of a genetic impact there, or did their descendants get driven off into France when the Germanic tribes came?

LeBrok
09-05-14, 06:07
Thank you for the concise answers yet again Nobody1, I see your point now.

Slightly off-topic question, but it has occurred to me: what about possible Roman descent in the provinces now located in West Germany? Or did the Romans not make much of a genetic impact there, or did their descendants get driven off into France when the Germanic tribes came?
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Celtic_Europe.gif


http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Germanic_Europe.gif

Haunter
09-05-14, 06:45
Interesting maps, but what do they mean, exactly...?

Do we have proof that the Italo-Celtic DNA in Germany came from the Romans and wasn't just left over from the previous Celts?

MOESAN
09-05-14, 23:58
my opinion is that the celtic element (mixed with less important neolithic near-easterners + mesolithical archaic people, absorbed by them in some way) is the most weighty in SW Germany of today beside the genuine germanic elements - but it does not exclude some influences of Roman occupation (I think in Mainz, based upon old STR surveys that don't confirm nor infirm the SNPs) - but what kind of "Romans" were they? Ligurians and other Italy old populations involved in Roma expansion, or true Romans of Latium? I 've no science based answer only good sense -
concerning these last ones, they in fine were a mix of genuine Italics with other close I-Eans + precedent population of North Italy + precedent populations of S-Italy: we can suppose Y-R1b was strong but uneasy to distinguish from the Celtic Y-R1bs, + a lot of Y-J2 and Y-G2 and appreciable amount of Y-E1B: what surprising here? Romans were no more the pure Danau-Croatia tribes of before -

other opinion of mine here (no! don't put money on the table, it is a free bet): the eternal stories of devasted populations and millions of refugees we find in history tales are very often overrated - the Alps regions were never very densely populated as all mountains: only the valleys: it 's true the winners took very often the broad valleys but the oldest populations did the "round back" and often flourished again after the storms - the rich and "elite" (what a curious definition) people are the first ones to flee when weather turns bad but the inferior stratae of population (often the oldest ethnie) keep on holding the ground very often and it explains why old genetic heritages can still be found sometimes in countries which saw, according to texts, a lot of following winners - anthropologic studies about S Germany during the first great southward moves of germanic tribes showed that the more ancient populations (Celtic for the most) were dominant in the highlands (maybe not so dense by the fact) when the new ones (germanic, more dolichocephalic, higher statured) were dominant in the valleys: nobody can say today Württemberg citizens are the exact copy of the Nieder-Sachsig citiznes...
some %: only 28% blond inWürttemberg (my criteria) compared to 58-62% in Nieder-Sachsen - about 33% along the Rhine, but only 26% and 23% in 2 villages of Schwartzwalde...
east-Bavaria: about 33% but variations village by village (altitude?) - and in SW again, as by hazard, more excess of ligh eyes over light hair (seemoingly common among Celts) -
and again: South THuringen (mountainou): only 27% blods spite its position mor northern: hazard?

Angela
10-05-14, 00:40
my opinion is that the celtic element (mixed with less important neolithic near-easterners + mesolithical archaic people, absorbed by them in some way) is the most weighty in SW Germany of today beside the genuine germanic elements - but it does not exclude some influences of Roman occupation (I think in Mainz, based upon old STR surveys that don't confirm nor infirm the SNPs) - but what kind of "Romans" were they? Ligurians and other Italy old populations involved in Roma expansion, or true Romans of Latium? I 've no science based answer only good sense -
concerning these last ones, they in fine were a mix of genuine Italics with other close I-Eans + precedent population of North Italy + precedent populations of S-Italy: we can suppose Y-R1b was strong but uneasy to distinguish from the Celtic Y-R1bs, + a lot of Y-J2 and Y-G2 and appreciable amount of Y-E1B: what surprising here? Romans were no more the pure Danau-Croatia tribes of before -

other opinion of mine here (no! don't put money on the table, it is a free bet): the eternal stories of devasted populations and millions of refugees we find in history tales are very often overrated - the Alps regions were never very densely populated as all mountains: only the valleys: it 's true the winners took very often the broad valleys but the oldest populations did the "round back" and often flourished again after the storms - the rich and "elite" (what a curious definition) people are the first ones to flee when weather turns bad but the inferior stratae of population (often the oldest ethnie) keep on holding the ground very often and it explains why old genetic heritages can still be found sometimes in countries which saw, according to texts, a lot of following winners - anthropologic studies about S Germany during the first great southward moves of germanic tribes showed that the more ancient populations (Celtic for the most) were dominant in the highlands (maybe not so dense by the fact) when the new ones (germanic, more dolichocephalic, higher statured) were dominant in the valleys: nobody can say today Württemberg citizens are the exact copy of the Nieder-Sachsig citiznes...
some %: only 28% blond inWürttemberg (my criteria) compared to 58-62% in Nieder-Sachsen - about 33% along the Rhine, but only 26% and 23% in 2 villages of Schwartzwalde...
east-Bavaria: about 33% but variations village by village (altitude?) - and in SW again, as by hazard, more excess of ligh eyes over light hair (seemoingly common among Celts) -
and again: South THuringen (mountainou): only 27% blods spite its position mor northern: hazard?

:good_job::good_job::good_job:

Haunter
10-05-14, 03:11
Thanks for all this info, Moesan.


my opinion is that the celtic element (mixed with less important neolithic near-easterners + mesolithical archaic people, absorbed by them in some way) is the most weighty in SW Germany of today beside the genuine germanic elements - but it does not exclude some influences of Roman occupation (I think in Mainz, based upon old STR surveys that don't confirm nor infirm the SNPs)

You wouldn't happen to have any studies about this to point me towards, would you?

RHAS
10-05-14, 06:18
https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/547442_578838895507603_1458899643_n.jpg

Freiburg im Breisgau/D: J2 = 9%

"The city is situated in the heart of a major wine-growing region and serves as the primary tourist entry point to the scenic beauty of the Black Forest. ..... This town was strategically located at a junction of trade routes between the Mediterranean Sea and the North Sea regions, and the Rhine and Danube rivers"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiburg_im_Breisgau


"The Agri Decumates or Decumates Agri were a region of the Roman Empire's provinces of Germania superior ("Upper Germania") and Raetia; covering the Black Forest, Swabian Jura, and Franconian Jura areas between the Rhine, Main, and Danube rivers; in present southwestern Germany, including present Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Freiburg im Breisgau , and Weißenburg in Bayern."
Wikipedia - Agri Decumates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agri_Decumates

"The larger Roman settlements were Sumolecenna (Rottenburg am Neckar), Civitas Aurelia Aquensis (Baden-Baden), Lopodunum (Ladenburg). and Arae Flaviae (Rottweil)."
Wikipedia - Agri Decumates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agri_Decumates

"Rottweil was founded by the Romans in AD 73 as Arae Flaviae and became a municipium, but there are traces of human settlement going back to 2000 BC. Roman baths and a mosaic of Orpheus (c. AD 180) date from the time of Roman settlement."
Wikipedia - Rottweil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rottweil

Although a versatile breed used in recent times for many purposes, the Rottweiler is one of the oldest of herding breeds. A multi-faceted herding and stock protection dog, it is capable of working all kinds of livestock under a variety of conditions. The breed's history likely dates to the Roman Empire. It is likely that the Rottweiler is a descendant of ancient Roman drover dogs, a mastiff-type dog that was a dependable, rugged dog with great intelligence and guarding instincts. During their quest to conquer Europe, the Roman legion traveled in large numbers across the continent. The non-existence of refrigeration meant the soldiers had to bring herds of cattle with them on their excursions for food. These drover dogs were not only used to keep the herds of cattle together, but to guard the supply stock at night."
Wikipedia - Rottweiler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rottweiler

http://www.luvyourdog.com/newconstruction.data/Components/lydpg_gallery_254.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/1236259_591804834211009_98755787_n.jpg

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28988-Haplogroup-J2-Romans-Christianity-and-Viticulture/

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/R%C3%B6merhalle%2C_Bad_Kreuznach_-_Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera_tombstone.JPG
The Roman tombstone in Bingerbrück, Germany

Tib(erius) Iul(ius) Abdes Pantera Sidonia ann(orum) LXII stipen(diorum) XXXX miles exs(ignifer?)coh(orte) I sagittariorumh(ic) s(itus) e(st)

Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera from Sidon, aged 62 years served 40 years, former standard bearer(?) of the first cohort of archers lies here.

"It was one of the most important Phoenician cities, and may have been the oldest."
Wikipedia - Sidon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidon

"The YDNA Haplogroup of the ancient Phoenicians is J2, also identified as the signature of human migration via the Mediterranean in the Neolithic or New Stone Age around 6,000 BC, from the Levant into Europe."
Ancientmed.org - The Mediterraneans.
http://www.ancientmed.org/TheMediterraneans.htm

"Was im ersten Moment exotisch erscheint, ist auf den zweiten Blick gar nicht so aussergewöhnlich. Rund jeder achte Europäer stammt aus der Linie J2."
Tages Anzeiger - Für 300 Franken auf den Spuren der eigenen Vorfahren. (German)
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/leben/gesellschaft/Fuer-300-Franken-auf-den-Spuren-der-eigenen-Vorfahren/story/28960496

"J2 Orientalide West. Ihr Verbreitungsgebiet ist der europäische Mittelmeerraum."
Die Haplogruppen des Y-Adams nach Ländern Europas verteilt. (German)
http://www.manfred-hiebl.com/Y-Adam-Verteilung_Europa.pdf