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Echetlaeus
13-05-14, 05:04
at least close, according to this ...

Wiki info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haplogroups_europe.png)

Twilight
13-05-14, 06:59
Nonsense, Ancient Greece used to have land in parts of Italy and France :) We are all connected in a way

LeBrok
13-05-14, 07:27
Genetically speaking Albanians, Macedonians and West Anatolians/Turks are Greek brothers. They were separated and raised by different families, but they are blood brothers.

Fire Haired14
13-05-14, 22:45
at least close, according to this ...

Wiki info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haplogroups_europe.png)

You should do more research than that, there is great info on this site. Greeks genetically are very connected to other "Europeans" and are definitely a phenomenon of Europe. They have a high amount of European farmer-specific ancestry, along with some Mesolithic European ancestry, which is pretty much exclusive to Europe. Greeks do have obvious modern southwest Asian ancestry but the same signal exists in the rest of the Balkans just weaker, and also in Italy where it is as strong in the south as it is in Greece.

Fire Haired14
14-05-14, 03:32
Echetlaeus, you should take a DNA test.

Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 03:56
Echetlaeus, you should take a DNA test.


I was thinking about it. Does it cost much?

What do I actually ask for? I am totally irrelevant with the whole thing.

Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 04:04
And I don't understand why someone " no-gooded " this thread. I just showed a picture indicating a characteristic that does not show the same patterns with other European countries.

albanopolis
14-05-14, 04:13
Echetlaeus, you should take a DNA test.
Greeks are not a homogeneous people historically. They have absorbed Macedonians, Epirus and Thracians that were different people, that spoke according to Greek historians of antiquity spoke different languages. Having said that makes very little sense to average out all this melange of people, and call them Greeks and look for their brothers. Today's northern geeks which corresponds with macedonians and Epirots of antiquity are genetically close to Albanians. R1b, I, R1a, J2b and EV13. The real Greeks or Hellenes are in south and central part of the country.They cluster Heavy in J2a, a lot G,T, J1, moderately in R1b. Today's greek population has about 3 milion people of Albanian heritage, or namely Arvanites. They have been there since 11 century ad invited by greek landlords of Bizaantine empire to work in fields and help them protect their possession from other Greek landlords of that time. Hopefully the recent Albanian emigrants will come back home. Seen from that angle since there are 3 to four million of real Albanians then of course ewe are half brothers.

LeBrok
14-05-14, 04:14
And I don't understand why someone " no-gooded " this thread. I just showed a picture indicating a characteristic that does not show the same patterns with other European countries.
Unless you don't know where Albania is.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Haplogroups_europe.png/583px-Haplogroups_europe.png

Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 04:17
Unless you don't know where Albania is.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Haplogroups_europe.png/583px-Haplogroups_europe.png

That was Greece in the past. Albania is half-green also. Southern Albanians are different from the Northern ones + plus Kossovars.

Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 04:19
Greeks are not a homogeneous people historically. They have absorbed Macedonians, Epirus and Thracians that were different people, that spoke according to Greek historians of antiquity spoke different languages. Having said that makes very little sense to average out all this melange of people, and call them Greeks and look for their brothers. Today's northern geeks which corresponds with macedonians and Epirots of antiquity are genetically close to Albanians. R1b, I, R1a, J2b and EV13. The real Greeks or Hellenes are in south and central part of the country.They cluster Heavy in J2a, a lot G,T, J1, moderately in R1b. Today's greek population has about 3 milion people of Albanian heritage, or namely Arvanites. They have been there since 11 century ad invited by greek landlords of Bizaantine empire to work in fields and help them protect their possession from other Greek landlords of that time. Hopefully the recent Albanian emigrants will come back home. Seen from that angle since there are 3 to four million of real Albanians then of course ewe are half brothers.

Their kids are already hellenized.

Arvanites are mostly in Attica and Beotea.

J2 seems to be Perso-Assyrian and Semitic, no?

How about this, only Crete is green?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png

LeBrok
14-05-14, 04:19
Here are the haplogroups of Early Farmers:
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_EGJT.gif

Full of brothers and cousins, even up north.

LeBrok
14-05-14, 04:26
Here is full genome (autosomal) relation map:
http://newphoenix.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/EuropeanautosomaladmixturesDodecadv3.png

On all the maps your brothers are Albanians and Slavic Macedonia. Your cousins are Bulgarians, Romanians, West Turks, and South Italy.

Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 04:27
Here are the haplogroups of Early Farmers:
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_EGJT.gif

Full of brothers and cousins, even up north.

But we do not speak the same language, we do not share the same civilization. Can we be bros, w/o those?

Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 04:27
Here is full genome (autosomal) relation map:
http://newphoenix.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/EuropeanautosomaladmixturesDodecadv3.png

On all the maps your brothers are Albanians and Slavic Macedonia. Your cousins are Bulgarians, Romanians, West Turks, and South Italy.

Makes sense, due to old colonies and Byzantine Empire. Maybe it is related to the Dorian invasion as well. Dorians, the sons of Heracles, came from the north.

Turks are not our bros, they came from Mongolia. What you see nowadays in Turkey is a mix.

LeBrok
14-05-14, 04:32
That was Greece in the past. Albania is half-green also. Southern Albanians are different from the Northern ones + plus Kossovars.
Are you getting creative to find any excuse not to have a brother? I think you don't want to have a brother, to be unique and special. That what you think about Greece and being proud Greek.
Now get off your high romantic horse and smell the real life.
This map is based on people not borders of Greece, past or present. These maps show that closest genetic relation (the brothers) are Albanians and Slavic Macedonians, either you like it or not. Science doesn't care about your agendas.

LeBrok
14-05-14, 04:36
Makes sense, due to old colonies and Byzantine Empire.

Turks are not our bros, they came from Mongolia. What you see nowadays in Turkey is a mix.
First of all Turks are not from Mongolia.
Secondly, only about 10% is Turkic mixed 90% existing old population of Anatolia. That's why they are still strongly related to Greeks.

Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 04:36
Are you getting creative to find any excuse not to have a brother? I think you don't want to have a brother, to be unique and special. That what you think about Greece and being proud Greek.
Now get off your high romantic horse and smell the real life.
This map is based on people not borders of Greece, past or present. These maps show that closest genetic relation (the brothers) are Albanians and Slavic Macedonians, either you like it or not. Science doesn't care about your agendas.

Imagine if all of these blue territories were one country. What an honour it would be to make an empire again.

Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 04:38
First of all Turks are not from Mongolia.
Secondly, only about 10% is Turkic mixed 90% existing old population of Anatolia. That's why they are still strongly related to Greeks.

Hence they should not use the name Turks, but Hettites. Even my Chinese and Korean friends told me that the first Turks came from a part close to Mongolia, after they lost a battle.

Was Troy inhabited by Greeks? It must be the case should we see Dardanos' story.

LeBrok
14-05-14, 04:47
But we do not speak the same language, we do not share the same civilization. Can we be bros, w/o those?
If you had a genetic brother who was adopted by Albanian family, and speaks only Albanian now. Wouldn't he still be your brother?
What is your definition of brother? From same father and mother?
Definition of brother doesn't care about culture. It strictly adhere only to genetic ties.

Culturally, you are closer to people from any European country than ancient Greeks. As I mention before you don't have ancient greek religion, traditions, education, way of life, they wouldn't understand your greek either, etc. On other hand, all Europeans these days have similar education, christian religion, drive cars, watch movies, go to cafes and bars, eat food from around the world, wear same clothes made in Asia, etc, feel free to continue, have same jobs. Isn't it the same culture?

LeBrok
14-05-14, 04:50
Imagine if all of these blue territories were one country. What an honour it would be to make an empire again.
Is it really so much fun to dream on this romantic horse?
Screw the empire, let's build Republic, by the people and for the people.

Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 04:52
If you had a genetic brother who was adopted by Albanian family, and speaks only Albanian now. Wouldn't he still be your brother?
What is your definition of brother? From same father and mother?
Definition of brother doesn't care about culture. It strictly adhere only to genetic ties.

Culturally, you are closer to people from any European country than ancient Greeks. As I mention before you don't have ancient greek religion, traditions, education, way of life, they wouldn't understand your greek either, etc. On other hand, all Europeans these days have similar education, christian religion, drive cars, watch movies, go to cafes and bars, eat food from around the world, wear same clothes made in Asia, etc, feel free to continue, have same jobs. Isn't it the same culture?

A brother is one that shares the Hellinikon. If he does not do that, I dunno. Do you know that there is a hatred between the two countries? Sad, but true !

P.S. You take everything so seriously LeBrok! Relax ...

Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 04:53
Is it really so much fun to dream on this romantic horse?
Screw the empire, let's build Republic, by the people and for the people.


Being romantic is fine. Mozart was also in the romantic era of classical music.

I like your last sentence ...

LeBrok
14-05-14, 04:55
Hence they should not use the name Turks, but Hettites. Hittites were just a part of Anatolia, and for fairly short time. It is up to people of Turkey to change name of their country. Isn't it.



Even my Chinese and Korean friends told me that the first Turks came from a part close to Mongolia It is like saying that Greeks came from Turkey, because they live close by and they lost a battle to Turkey some time ago. Do you see your mistake?

Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 04:58
Hittites were just a part of Anatolia, and for fairly short time. It is up to people of Turkey to change name of their country. Isn't it.


It is like saying that Greeks came from Turkey, because they live close by and they lost a battle to Turkey some time ago. Do you see your mistake?

They learn these stuff in history. We learn the same in our history, thus two sources with the same info. A journalist would have said that he has a real story to say, no?

LeBrok
14-05-14, 04:58
Do you know that there is a hatred between the two countries? Sad, but true !

Oh I know, they can't make friends with people who say something like that:

A brother is one that shares the Hellinikon. If he does not do that, I dunno.

Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 05:00
Oh I know, they can't make friends with people who say something like that:

They have more hatred. They want pieces of Greece.

LeBrok
14-05-14, 05:01
They learn these stuff in history. We learn the same in our history, thus two sources with the same info. A journalist would have said that he has a real story to say, no?
Now I understand, you don't care for logical argument, and you only believe in what you were taught (brainwashed) in greek school.
I'm done talking to you. You are a lost case of education system.

Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 05:03
Now I understand, you don't care for logical argument, and you only believe in what you were taught (brainwashed) in greek school.
I'm done talking to you. You are a lost case of education system.

I mentioned two sources and you are telling me I am wrong! That's good ...

What is your logical argument? The first Turkish people came from an area close to Mongolia (Altay Mountains). They were people of the steps for many years and they have not set foot in Asia Minor before 1000 AD.

See the Battle of Manzikert in 1071.

kamani
14-05-14, 06:02
But we do not speak the same language, we do not share the same civilization. Can we be bros, w/o those?
I've thought about this too and it is more like the brother that has married and has moved out of the house, and now has his own economy and interest. So the best I can do is leave him alone and give him space. Maybe meet for holidays and give a hand to one-another, if there is a need.
But as a side-note, the closer someone is to you, the more you have to watch-out. The most dangerous people are the ones in your city that surround you in your everyday life, because the non-Greeks are all far away on the other side of the border.

albanopolis
14-05-14, 12:28
First of all Turks are not from Mongolia.
Secondly, only about 10% is Turkic mixed 90% existing old population of Anatolia. That's why they are still strongly related to Greeks.
Greeks have a very distorted view of Turkey. I had the same problem before visiting Istanbul. I thought too they are mongrel. But they are not. They are mostly European of Balkanic and middle eastern stock. Recently they have modernized and becoming a powerful regional power. Especially their education system is becoming competitive in European terms. About 20 000 Turks a year do their masters and phd in USA alone. Now Turkey has a lot of regional dna diversity. I would say that Western Turkey and Greece are 80% identical in DNA terms, which means they are actually brothers. With Albania greeks should be about 70% the same.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
14-05-14, 19:15
I mind, Greeks/Hellenes as a perfect mix of all this beutifull people (Haplogroups for the genetists;), applied up on exceptional landscape.Notice please: Cosmos, World - Gr/Κόσμος, = α) Universe, planets, stars, meteors, everything surrounding us or above us, etc. β) The people, the humans, the masses... all of us.But this "cosmos" (People; Stars;) give us another precious word, > Gr/Κόσμημα, = Jewell, jewellry; but in a mean of beauty and variety! There is no place in greece for nazi theories, racisms, elitisms, aryans/ bulls/ chariots... and racial purity fantasies.Greek is anyone which appreciate, our common first international language and anyone who create a Myth, a God or a Word.Greeks have "brothers" (Gr/φραττήρ ) all over the world.

Grubbe
15-05-14, 11:21
Being romantic is fine. Mozart was also in the romantic era of classical music.


Nope, he belonged to the "school" of Viennese Classicism.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
15-05-14, 20:03
Romantic was the paligenesia release of Hellas. The selfish-less sacrifice of these "foreigners"; which their blood flood the ground for the anastasis and a promise for a new era to come*. The impact was huge at Mesolonghi-Μεσολόγγι (Aetoloacarnania) when Lord Byron closed his eyes... Only Athenians moorned Socrates, for so many days. The long whiteskirt, thick moustached rebels (hairy chested included, but not only...) some of the most famous heroe's of the Revolution cried as small chldrens!!! Byron is a myth, is a legend and many of the greeks also wondered. -"Is just a lunatic? -A friend of Greece? No, for the greeks, Byron was greek! Allthough he couldn't communicate with the locals, he wasn't got the mucho look like the rebels, which never read his poems as all the honour ladies of Victorian Britain use to do that time.
The fragile and delicate poet influent the natives and gain the respect of the rebels. It is a question why this young handsome, famous, rich, and... left everything back and "waste" his life. There was more than hundreds young males from all Europe and Russia even from the new world, which they came travel, paint, report, fought and some of them killed and get killed... for Greece. These are our brothers.
George Gordon Noel lord Byron is the name one them

*(The free liberal and classicist ideals -not yet democratic but definetely humanitarian save the Cosmos for another time. After few years of continuing struggle, Greece enjoy modern constitutional laws, who can imagine at that time!)

Dianatomia
01-06-14, 16:38
Are you getting creative to find any excuse not to have a brother? I think you don't want to have a brother, to be unique and special. That what you think about Greece and being proud Greek.
Now get off your high romantic horse and smell the real life.
This map is based on people not borders of Greece, past or present. These maps show that closest genetic relation (the brothers) are Albanians and Slavic Macedonians, either you like it or not. Science doesn't care about your agendas.

Slavic Macedonians are actually a lot closer to Bulgarians(almost identical in genetic terms) than to Greeks.

The peoples closer to Greeks are South Albanians and South Italians. After that come Central Italians, followed by Western Turks, Slavic Macedonians and Northern Albanians. Closely followed by Cypriots.

LeBrok
01-06-14, 18:00
Slavic Macedonians are actually a lot closer to Bulgarians(almost identical in genetic terms) than to Greeks.

The peoples closer to Greeks are South Albanians and South Italians. After that come Central Italians, followed by Western Turks, Slavic Macedonians and Northern Albanians. Closely followed by Cypriots.
Sure, it is in general. However when you separate Northern Greeks only and compare them to Slavic Macedonians they will group much closer together. They might be closer together than North and South Greeks.

Here is a nice read about relationships to "other brothers".

Greek autosomal DNA
by Dienekes Pontikos
Last Update: 2 May, 2009
A striking demonstration of the persistence of the Greek genetic signature through time can be found in [1]. The figure on the right is the 4th principal component of variation in Europe and shows a strong cline centered in Greece. Not only is the Greek genetic legacy clearly detectible today, but it is detectible among not only the Greeks, but all their neighboring populations of partial Greek ancestry:http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekadna/patternsT.gif (http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekadna/patterns.jpg) http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekadna/greekcolonization.jpgFigure 2. Hidden patterns in the geography of Europe shown by the first five principal components, explaining respectively 28%, 22%, 11%, 7%, and 5% of the total genetic variation for 95 classical polymorphisms (1, 13, 14). The first component is almost superimposable to the archaeological dates of the spread of farming from the Middle East between 10,000 and 6,000 years ago. The second principal component parallels a probable spread of Uralic people and/or languages to the northeast of Europe. The third is very similar to the spread of pastoral nomads (and their successors) who domesticated the horse in the steppe towards the end of the farming expansion, and are believed by some archaeologists and linguists to have spread most Indo-European languages to Europe. The fourth is strongly reminiscent of Greek colonization in the first millennium B.C. The fifth corresponds to the progressive retreat of the boundary of the Basque language. Basques have retained, in addition to their language, believed to be descended from an original language spoken in Europe, some of their original genetic characteristics. (From ref. 1, with permission of Princeton University Press, modified.)

http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekadna/

Echetlaeus
01-06-14, 18:24
Neighbours yes, friends if you want yes, but no brothers.

I have said that so many times and you do not seem to understand my point people.

Genome ain't that important. It is only a biological attribute, that does not shape man's character. What matter is education and the rest mentioned in my previous posts.

But understand that most of the people in this forum are anthropologists or in related disciplines, hence they feel probably bad or offended when I, kind of, underestimate the role of genome.

The point is that biology does not shape the social status of a society that much.

Dianatomia
01-06-14, 20:03
Sure, it is in general. However when you separate Northern Greeks only and compare them to Slavic Macedonians they will group much closer together. They might be closer together than North and South Greeks.


Not so sure about that actually. Northern Greeks will have a tendency towards Slavic Macedonians, but are as a whole still closer to Southern Greeks. I think even South Albanians will cluster closer to Southern Greeks than Slavic Macedonians.

Echetlaeus
01-06-14, 20:21
Not so sure about that actually. Northern Greeks will have a tendency towards Slavic Macedonians, but are as a whole still closer to Southern Greeks. I think even South Albanians will cluster closer to Southern Greeks than Slavic Macedonians.

Southern Albanians are Greeks, they are called Northern Epirotans.

Fire Haired14
01-06-14, 22:19
Sure, it is in general. However when you separate Northern Greeks only and compare them to Slavic Macedonians they will group much closer together. They might be closer together than North and South Greeks.

Here is a nice read about relationships to "other brothers".

Greek autosomal DNA
by Dienekes Pontikos
Last Update: 2 May, 2009
A striking demonstration of the persistence of the Greek genetic signature through time can be found in [1]. The figure on the right is the 4th principal component of variation in Europe and shows a strong cline centered in Greece. Not only is the Greek genetic legacy clearly detectible today, but it is detectible among not only the Greeks, but all their neighboring populations of partial Greek ancestry:http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekadna/patternsT.gif (http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekadna/patterns.jpg) http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekadna/greekcolonization.jpgFigure 2. Hidden patterns in the geography of Europe shown by the first five principal components, explaining respectively 28%, 22%, 11%, 7%, and 5% of the total genetic variation for 95 classical polymorphisms (1, 13, 14). The first component is almost superimposable to the archaeological dates of the spread of farming from the Middle East between 10,000 and 6,000 years ago. The second principal component parallels a probable spread of Uralic people and/or languages to the northeast of Europe. The third is very similar to the spread of pastoral nomads (and their successors) who domesticated the horse in the steppe towards the end of the farming expansion, and are believed by some archaeologists and linguists to have spread most Indo-European languages to Europe. The fourth is strongly reminiscent of Greek colonization in the first millennium B.C. The fifth corresponds to the progressive retreat of the boundary of the Basque language. Basques have retained, in addition to their language, believed to be descended from an original language spoken in Europe, some of their original genetic characteristics. (From ref. 1, with permission of Princeton University Press, modified.)

http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekadna/

It is so annoying how inlove everyone used to be so inlove with the Basque, and all the major testing companies are still stuck in that year.

John Doe
03-06-14, 10:27
Of course Greeks have brothers in Europe! Greece pretty much gave birth to Western civilisation, Greek colonies existed in the Italian peninsula, Anatolia, Southern Gaul etc. There still are Greek minorities in Southern Italy for example, the Greek language is Indo-European and therefore shares a common ancestry with most of the other languages of Europe, genetically speaking Greeks are close to Italians and Balkans I'm pretty sure. Besides, all humans are brothers/sisters in a way. :)

John Doe
03-06-14, 10:31
I mind, Greeks/Hellenes as a perfect mix of all this beutifull people (Haplogroups for the genetists;), applied up on exceptional landscape.Notice please: Cosmos, World - Gr/Κόσμος, = α) Universe, planets, stars, meteors, everything surrounding us or above us, etc. β) The people, the humans, the masses... all of us.But this "cosmos" (People; Stars;) give us another precious word, > Gr/Κόσμημα, = Jewell, jewellry; but in a mean of beauty and variety! There is no place in greece for nazi theories, racisms, elitisms, aryans/ bulls/ chariots... and racial purity fantasies.Greek is anyone which appreciate, our common first international language and anyone who create a Myth, a God or a Word.Greeks have "brothers" (Gr/φραττήρ ) all over the world.

That's a beautiful thing to say, I agree, Greece gave our species the wonders of theater, philosophy and much of the natural sciences, it also gave us Greek mythology and more, we're all Greek in a way. :-P

Pax Augusta
04-07-14, 14:53
at least close, according to this ...

Wiki info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haplogroups_europe.png)

You have probably not fully understand that map.