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Angela
14-05-14, 16:23
A new paper posits "an approximately linear dependence between the age and the geodesic distance from the Near East, suggesting a systematic (but not necessarily uniform) spread at an average speed of about 0.65 km/yr. "
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0095714

In comparison, the rate of spread into Europe has been computed as 1.0 km/yr. (Cavalli-Sforza)

That would seem to comport with genetic data previously published. I found it interesting that the spread wasn't impeded very much by the relatively unfriendly terrain through which it had to pass.

The most interesting aspect to me, however, was the list of dates for the various Neolithic sites that was provided in the Appendix.

Some of them are incredibly old...these are all B.C.E. dates...so over 12,000 years old.
Gesher 10,458
Cayonu 10,368
Coga Bonut 10,125
Abu Madi 9,589

This is the site of Gesher, by the way...
http://archaeology.huji.ac.il/GBY/isrmap.jpg

Coyonu, very similar in age, is in eastern Anatolia, while Abu Madi is all the way in the southern Sinai. An amazingly quick spread in this area it seems to me.

bicicleur
14-05-14, 17:42
first consumption of seeds from wild grasses : Ohala, near lake Tiberias , 20000 years ago

nice to see all these sites, indeed
but the statistics, 0,65 km/yr .. quite useless info I think, it was much more complicated, not a linear process at all

ebAmerican
14-05-14, 19:33
Not useless at all. It shows a fast spread of agricultural from west to east. The key is west to east and not simultaneously or at different time periods. The data shows a clear diffusion. What I'm interested in - was the diffusion demic (migratory) or areal (cultural)?

Angela
15-05-14, 02:08
Not useless at all. It shows a fast spread of agricultural from west to east. The key is west to east and not simultaneously or at different time periods. The data shows a clear diffusion. What I'm interested in - was the diffusion demic (migratory) or areal (cultural)?


The authors point to the Quintana-Murci papers in 2001 and 2004 for the proposition that there was gene flow from the Middle East to South Asia.

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297%2807%2964108-1
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297%2807%2964352-3

From the abstract of the 2004 paper, " Both lineage geographical distribution and spatial analysis of molecular variance showed that populations located west of the Indus Valley mainly harbor mtDNAs of western Eurasian origin, whereas those inhabiting the Indo-Gangetic region and Central Asia present substantial proportions of lineages that can be allocated to three different genetic components of western Eurasian, eastern Eurasian, and south Asian origin... The comparison with Y-chromosome data revealed a highly complex genetic and demographic history of the region, which includes sexually asymmetrical mating patterns, founder effects, and female-specific traces of the East African slave trade."

I don't know if the findings of these papers still hold up. It seems strange that this is the most recent paper these authors could find. Perhaps someone else has been following this more closely and has more information.

I also think I remember some discussion on Dienekes' site about yDNA J2b possibly being a sign of Neolithic migrations.

If results for Harappan samples are ever published, that would tell us a lot more.

bicicleur
15-05-14, 08:13
we know about first neolithic in the Levant and the 'hilly flanks' 11500 years ago
we know about Mehrgarh 9000 years ago and Jeitun 8000 years ago, with many elements from the Levant neolithic

afanasievo, in the minusinsk depresion is much later, 3500 years ago, so much later
David Anthony suggested it was an ofshoot of the steppe people
only very recently, when both wheat and millet were found there on the same spot, this was challenged and suggested they were coming from the Jeitun area

how come we know so little about what happened between Jeitun and afanasievo ?
same goes for Indus civilization, before the discovery of Mehrgarh, the origins were a complete mystery

or am I missing something ?

bicicleur
15-05-14, 08:14
sorry, 5500 years ago