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Echetlaeus
14-05-14, 21:22
Should Eurosceptics do well in the elections, this may have crucial impacts in Europe.



http://euronews.com/2014/05/13/dutch-eurosceptic-on-the-rise/

Anton, Bear's den
18-05-14, 22:40
No it will not, I am say with 100% assurance

just look at these clown debates http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhafgcPeXes

Echetlaeus
18-05-14, 23:28
Your Avatar is very funny, however I do not think that it is a good idea to continue fighting each other.

LeBrok
19-05-14, 00:45
No it will not, I am say with 100% assurance

just look at these clown debates http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhafgcPeXes
Give the time frame for EU collapse. I want to know when to call you to hear that you were wrong.

Anton, Bear's den
19-05-14, 22:32
Your Avatar is very funny, however I do not think that it is a good idea to continue fighting each other.

that polak sending me messages that will block me soon http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif I will complain to the European Court of Human Rights!!! http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif
http:// (http://<a href=&quot;http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=6177e109979149899507466cfd3c0312&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;>http://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/6177e109979149899507466cfd3c0312.jpg</a>)http://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/6177e109979149899507466cfd3c0312.jpg (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=6177e109979149899507466cfd3c0312)

Echetlaeus
20-05-14, 00:30
that polak sending me messages that will block me soon http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif I will complain to the European Court of Human Rights!!! http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif
http:// (http://<a href=&quot;http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=6177e109979149899507466cfd3c0312&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;>http://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/6177e109979149899507466cfd3c0312.jpg</a>)http://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/6177e109979149899507466cfd3c0312.jpg (http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=6177e109979149899507466cfd3c0312)

Keep it calm Russian bro, hehe! As you can see, people living in Western Europe or the New World have a different behaviour towards many aspects of life. I have my " differences " with LeBrok as well most of the times. But it is fine I suppose. I do not keep a grudge on him.

P.S. Russia strong, especially after the new cooperation with China for the natural gas !

Fire Haired14
20-05-14, 04:23
Will European Union Survive?

Not if Putin has something to say about it.

http://hd.wallpaperswide.com/thumbs/nuke-t2.jpg

https://i.imgflip.com/4n4ce.jpg

http://i.minus.com/iVxvznxxV5ksm.gif

Echetlaeus
20-05-14, 04:31
Not if America has something to say about it.

http://hd.wallpaperswide.com/thumbs/nuke-t2.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ7tqrCw5z4N5QFBQWJ3yG3RIE1AicEO BaLTXXl0f_9wfLaEsXN

We had difficulties in the past and we survived. A nation like 'Murica cannot stand the glory of Europe and its people!

Fire Haired14
20-05-14, 04:42
We had difficulties in the past and we survived. A nation like 'Murica cannot stand the glory of Europe and its people!

Don't you live in America? I just had a vision, it's not the holy trinity its the holy quadinity: Father, son, holy spirit, and Vladimir Putin.

Echetlaeus
20-05-14, 05:07
Don't you live in America? I just had a vision, it's not the holy trinity its the holy quadinity: Father, son, holy spirit, and Vladimir Putin.

My heart is in Europe always !

P.S. If I am not mistaken Russia has more atomic bombs than the rest of the world combined.

P.S.2 The bombs are falling to Finland.

P.S.3 I thought Putin was elected via democratic procedures.

LeBrok
20-05-14, 05:52
My heart is in Europe always !
Really? The place you can't find brothers?! Your heart is only in Greece.

Echetlaeus
20-05-14, 05:59
Really? The place you can't find brothers?! Your heart is only in Greece.

Why don't you make like a tree and ****.
You always have something to say. Anton is right ....

You may not have close bros, but you can still make friends.

Anton, Bear's den
20-05-14, 22:02
P.S. Russia strong, especially after the new cooperation with China for the natural gas !

If europeans don't want to buy gas then China will buy http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/thinking.gif and with Chinese is easier to have deal - they don't rape brains with "democracy" and other such stuff. Greeks invented some really evil thing in the past! hehehe

Anton, Bear's den
20-05-14, 22:09
Not if Putin has something to say about it.

http://hd.wallpaperswide.com/thumbs/nuke-t2.jpg

https://i.imgflip.com/4n4ce.jpg

http://i.minus.com/iVxvznxxV5ksm.gif

lol

http:// (http://<a href=&quot;http://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=eaccf6e5e4cf2006501c2ab1961f8631&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;>http://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2014/05/eaccf6e5e4cf2006501c2ab1961f8631.jpg</a>)

Echetlaeus
20-05-14, 23:47
If europeans don't want to buy gas then China will buy http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/thinking.gif and with Chinese is easier to have deal - they don't rape brains with "democracy" and other such stuff. Greeks invented some really evil thing in the past! hehehe

Since benevolent social planners do not exist, at least for the whole period of their rule, democracy is the best regime that we have.

What you need to have in politics and generally in decision making processes, is a group of people that can actually criticize you---assuming that they are not corrupted and they act for the well being of those that they represent.

For example the regime in Sparta, although oligarchic, had two kings, and the 5 Έφοροι had power to take them down.

Absolute power is problematic indeed, as human nature is malicious per se, in the sense that, somehow, you will look for your well being. A ruler should not do that. He needs to care about his subjects and the well-functioning of the society and not himself.

Christiaan
22-05-14, 10:03
If Greece survives, so will the EU ;-)

By the way Wilders and his European partners have to find at least 8 or 7 parties. If Vlaams belang does not get enough votes, Wilders and co will have a problem to form a eurosceptic faction.

update NL EU elections (37 % counted):
Wilders party seems to have lost two seats of five, so his Euroscepticism did not rewarded him as many had thought.

Christiaan
22-05-14, 10:48
What Anton didn't mention is that China does not need Russian gas, because they still prefer coal from China and gas from Turkmenistan (and of course China itself). The Chinese didn't want to pay as much as the Europeans, so it is only now when Europe is thinking about alternatives that Russia agrees with the much lower price for gas that China wants to pay.

Anyway the pipeline that transports the Russian gas is ready in 2018. In the meantime it might get difficult to find buyers for Russian gas if it became sanctioned by the EU.

see also:
www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-will-putins-incitement-of-violence-in-ukraine-blow-back-home/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-will-putins-incitement-of-violence-in-ukraine-blow-back-home/)

Echetlaeus
23-05-14, 20:01
What Anton didn't mention is that China does not need Russian gas, because they still prefer coal from China and gas from Turkmenistan (and of course China itself). The Chinese didn't want to pay as much as the Europeans, so it is only now when Europe is thinking about alternatives that Russia agrees with the much lower price for gas that China wants to pay.

Anyway the pipeline that transports the Russian gas is ready in 2018. In the meantime it might get difficult to find buyers for Russian gas if it became sanctioned by the EU.

see also:
www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-will-putins-incitement-of-violence-in-ukraine-blow-back-home/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-will-putins-incitement-of-violence-in-ukraine-blow-back-home/)


One has to take into consideration though that coal is one of the dirtiest ways of producing energy, although cheaper. China's evolving economy and people demand environmental reforms, and in order to do that they will have to invest in cleaner energy, i.e. natural gas, solar energy etc.

Echetlaeus
23-05-14, 20:02
If Greece survives, so will the EU ;-)

By the way Wilders and his European partners have to find at least 8 or 7 parties. If Vlaams belang does not get enough votes, Wilders and co will have a problem to form a eurosceptic faction.

update NL EU elections (37 % counted):
Wilders party seems to have lost two seats of five, so his Euroscepticism did not rewarded him as many had thought.

The real deal is the growing change in Britain. UKIP seems to be third or fourth party.

albanopolis
23-05-14, 20:35
If the EU does not reform it will go bust. England elections just showed it. France it seems will follow so does Netherlands. If they allow referendum in Germany they will follow. In current form the EU can not function. Imagine the parliament has 1000 members. That's a huge meeting by any standard. Imagine now Balkans, Turkey,Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova and who knows else, in the union!!! Simply a conglomerate cultures ungovernable! I liked the idea of three tier Europe they once circulated. Fist tier the Nordics forming a political union and same currency union, second tier the immediate countries to EU having an political but not monetary union, and the late comers just an economic union, no political, no currency union. Its going there, if not it seems England will be the first country out.

Christiaan
23-05-14, 20:50
One has to take into consideration though that coal is one of the dirtiest ways of producing energy, although cheaper. China's evolving economy and people demand environmental reforms, and in order to do that they will have to invest in cleaner energy, i.e. natural gas, solar energy etc.

That's true however it doesn't look like the Chinese government is about to speed up the process to achieve that goal. As I said it will take several years before they can use the Russian gas. And Russia needs the money urgently, if something is about to happen to the gas delivery to Europe.

Echetlaeus
23-05-14, 20:55
That's true however it doesn't look like the Chinese government is about to speed up the process to achieve that goal. As I said it will take several years before they can use the Russian gas. And Russia needs the money urgently, if something is about to happen to the gas delivery to Europe.

Europe needs energy to feed its industry. Capital rules after all, so do not believe what politicians say, especially when they talk about punishing Russia.

Christiaan
23-05-14, 21:01
Well, UK surprises me not all, it only joined the EU to have a say about the regulation: if you are not at the menu, you are on the menu. Switzerland and Norway are not member of the EU but still they have to apply EU regulation if they deal with the EU. So in that case you have no political influence on the EU regulation, but you have to follow the EU regulations anyway.

France is a bit more of a worry and the Netherlands well Wilders had better days.

Christiaan
23-05-14, 21:03
Europe needs energy to feed its industry. Capital rules after all, so do not believe what politicians say, especially when they talk about punishing Russia.

The harbours for fluid gas are already built, we don't need the Russian gas if we don't want to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LNG_terminals

FBS
23-05-14, 22:42
EU will survive and regarding energy, EU has been contemplating on several plans for more then 10 years on how to get independent from Russian gas, and now is the time to put those plans at work.

Maleth
24-05-14, 09:25
Its going there,if not it seems England will be the first country out.

Britian has been Euro sceptic since it joined the EU in 1973 (EEC at the time) Its still there today in 2014. And the present prime minister David Cameron has said many times he is totally in favour of staying in. Whats new?

Aberdeen
24-05-14, 14:43
Britian has been Euro sceptic since it joined the EU in 1973 (EEC at the time) Its still there today in 2014. And the present prime minister David Cameron has said many times he is totally in favour of staying in. Whats new?

What's new is that if the EU wants to survive, it's going to have to at some point shed marginal member countries, most of them because their economies are under-developed but Britain because it's not as committed to the EU concept. However, even such a radical change won't solve the ongoing problem of German manufacturing efficiency sucking money out of countries like Spain and Italy. As an economic unit, the EU may not be sustainable in the long run. However, as a political unit, I think it's been a splendid success, even if the Brits don't seem to recognize that. The EU has prevented European countries from becoming hostile with one another and provides a sense of security against the Russian bear, so that countries like Germany don't have to over-militarize.

Tiffany01
10-06-14, 17:31
I'm really sorry. I got no idea

Garrick
11-07-14, 16:32
Europe needs more integration. Only united Europe can compete with the giants of other continents. It is possible that federalists lead Europe in the right direction.

Sile
12-07-14, 19:13
What's new is that if the EU wants to survive, it's going to have to at some point shed marginal member countries, most of them because their economies are under-developed but Britain because it's not as committed to the EU concept. However, even such a radical change won't solve the ongoing problem of German manufacturing efficiency sucking money out of countries like Spain and Italy. As an economic unit, the EU may not be sustainable in the long run. However, as a political unit, I think it's been a splendid success, even if the Brits don't seem to recognize that. The EU has prevented European countries from becoming hostile with one another and provides a sense of security against the Russian bear, so that countries like Germany don't have to over-militarize.

EU will not succeed because they have national governments within it..........destroy the nations in the EU, make it regional representation and then the EU will prosper.
Nations have far too much power in the EU

LeBrok
12-07-14, 20:35
EU will not succeed because they have national governments within it..........destroy the nations in the EU, make it regional representation and then the EU will prosper.
Nations have far too much power in the EU
It will survive because there are stronger forces in work here than national agendas. The main force is economical. Stronger countries and their companies have access to almost all European people as consumers and working force. Smaller countries receive financial help and their people can work across Europe too. This greatly unleashes human potential and make Europe economically stronger.
As they say, "Money talks, bulshit walks."

Anton, Bear's den
13-07-14, 23:38
What Anton didn't mention is that China does not need Russian gas, because they still prefer coal from China and gas from Turkmenistan (and of course China itself). The Chinese didn't want to pay as much as the Europeans, so it is only now when Europe is thinking about alternatives that Russia agrees with the much lower price for gas that China wants to pay.

Anyway the pipeline that transports the Russian gas is ready in 2018. In the meantime it might get difficult to find buyers for Russian gas if it became sanctioned by the EU.

see also:
www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-will-putins-incitement-of-violence-in-ukraine-blow-back-home/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-will-putins-incitement-of-violence-in-ukraine-blow-back-home/)

1. Chinese already ready to pay the same price as Europeans to avoid nature pollution by coal.
2. EU sanctions are joke, I even must say "thanks" for ban of russian corrupted officials visits to eu
3. Asian markets have higher prices on liquefied gas already today so exporters of liquefied gas will prefer their markets, not european. And according to forecasts situation will not change in the long term.
4. Next gas deal with China will touch field of resources from which europe currently getting russian gas, i.e. europe will be partly replaced by china

HAHAHA skinny hand of hunger is coming http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

Christiaan
22-07-14, 07:11
1. Chinese already ready to pay the same price as Europeans to avoid nature pollution by coal.
2. EU sanctions are joke, I even must say "thanks" for ban of russian corrupted officials visits to eu
3. Asian markets have higher prices on liquefied gas already today so exporters of liquefied gas will prefer their markets, not european. And according to forecasts situation will not change in the long term.
4. Next gas deal with China will touch field of resources from which europe currently getting russian gas, i.e. europe will be partly replaced by china

HAHAHA skinny hand of hunger is coming http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

Well, laugh while you can, but Russia is going down now and you are not realizing it yet. Putin is going to hell with his foreign, underhand adventures, because his little incompetent friends in eastern Ukraine have ****** up big time five days ago. He can't cover that up. In other words: ISOLATION, lets see how it prosper under these conditions.

LeBrok
22-07-14, 16:29
Europeans don’t want any more to tolerate governments' aloofness, economic dysfunction and incapacity to calm the alienation felt by citizens. The most evident proof of this fact is the results of the election to the European Parliament held between 22 and 25 May 2014. They have demonstrated an unprecedented surge in popularity of the far-right, anti-EU parties. The influence of Eurosceptic parties have been underestimated for a long time. And now with one third in the EU parliament the eurosceptics will have an important say in the European legislation. The results have turned to be a blow to the governments, with the French PM even calling the result “a political earthquake.”The fact is, Europeans started to support those who promise them independence and freedom from inflexible and damaging EU legislation, to reduce bureaucracy, overcome financial crisis and rising unemployment, cope with uncontrolled immigration. Such parties as Marine Le Pen's far right National Front (France), Nigel Farage’s UK Independence Party, True Finns (Finland) and some others persuade Europeans of the necessity to develop their states as individual, sovereign countries. And these arguments resonate with many people.The anti-EU public mood shows also great political confrontation fatigue. People don’t want a new Cold War. And, of course, every right-minded person in Europe agrees with Marine Le Pen that “It's not in line with traditional, friendly relations nor with the economic interests of our country or EU countries and harms future relations.”Europeans are absolutely sure that the European Union must change, but these reforms will be now strongly influenced by anti-EU parties, acting inside the organization, and the future of the united Europe is becoming more and more cloudy.
Once economy recovers people's point of view will move again to the center and tolerance will return. The rise of the right is only temporary and typical to times of crisis.

Welcome to Eupedia sophialake.

Yetos
22-07-14, 19:10
Once economy recovers people's point of view will move again to the center and tolerance will return. The rise of the right is only temporary and typical to times of crisis.

Welcome to Eupedia sophialake.

what about WW2 how much was that time?

kamani
23-07-14, 17:17
It is in people's nature to complain and point fingers at others. In this thread I sense an attitude of entitlement. Members expect the EU to solve their problems, but nobody wants to take responsibility to solve anything. There is no magical EU, you all are the EU.

Yetos
23-07-14, 19:15
It is in people's nature to complain and point fingers at others. In this thread I sense an attitude of entitlement. Members expect the EU to solve their problems, but nobody wants to take responsibility to solve anything. There is no magical EU, you all are the EU.

EU started as community for coal and steel, so countries do not have to face another war,
by time ment stabilization, loyalty, progress,
after the big leaders, modern Europe seems to be not balanced, among peoples will, corporations will, and bankers will,
EU needs new leaders, to be wanted again by people, and not corporation managers to rule the Union

FBS
24-07-14, 00:15
It is in people's nature to complain and point fingers at others. In this thread I sense an attitude of entitlement. Members expect the EU to solve their problems, but nobody wants to take responsibility to solve anything. There is no magical EU, you all are the EU.
How true, could not agree more!

roseroser
08-08-14, 14:28
Your Avatar is very funny, however I do not think that it is a good idea to continue fighting each other.
I agree with you ;)

Dobrica
13-04-15, 18:01
Greece will drop euro. Russians are steping up them in this direction

Carsten F Hansen
20-04-15, 09:51
I hope not, atleat not in its current form. Europe, is not ready for a that vast union. There has to be high level of muterel understanding and identification among people, and Europe is to big for that. The EU will as we know it, will be downsizes, people are tired, of seeing EU getting more and more power. I live in Denmark, why do I have to pay, for the Greeks, cheating their way in to the EU currency, and some East European countries, people I do not identify with at all, culturelly or morally?
No doubt in the long run, EU also a big EU is a good thing, and great idea, but the countries, most be at a higher standard, to join. We are too far part atm.

Finalise
20-04-15, 20:39
EU will survive out of necessity, and it has to become entirely self-sufficient and self-reliant. That means little trade and outsourcing with outside nations. With 3rd world countries that many times outnumber Europe, gaining more and more of the production means that are being outsourced there, and providing great competition, the quality of life in Europe will "leak out" slowly towards them, unless the borders are sewn up.Europe survived many years ahead of others due to the others' lack of education and lack of productivity, but it will soon be torn apart and end up like Detroit if it doesn't close up it's economical borders.

kyrani99
11-11-15, 14:44
I hope not, atleat not in its current form. Europe, is not ready for a that vast union. There has to be high level of muterel understanding and identification among people, and Europe is to big for that. The EU will as we know it, will be downsizes, people are tired, of seeing EU getting more and more power. I live in Denmark, why do I have to pay, for the Greeks, cheating their way in to the EU currency, and some East European countries, people I do not identify with at all, culturelly or morally?
No doubt in the long run, EU also a big EU is a good thing, and great idea, but the countries, most be at a higher standard, to join. We are too far part atm.

I think it will be good for all European people if the European Union fails and disintegrates. I think some sort of trade agreement between nations is all that would be beneficial. There is no need for the political union. What I see is the big financiers, who are not even European in many cases, are really behind the problems. What it appears is that if they can, behind the scenes using for instance Germany as a front to crush smaller countries like Greece and turn them into protectorates, i.e., strip them of their nationhood and identity, then they will have started the ball rolling. They will move to crush more and more until Europe is owned and controlled by the big financiers. There will not be any nation, not even those that are wealthy and powerful today.

I hope Greece rejects the Euro and goes back to the Drachma and leaves the European Union. It will pave the path to the European Union disintegrating and Europe surviving as a continent of independent nations with their own identities and political freedoms.

dease
02-01-16, 15:37
Europe has to survive, otherwise there will be WW3. The Euro countries are very hostile to each other, but EU keeps their economic interests together and that is the only reason we have no war in Europe for the last 50 years (asside the Serbia aggression on Bosnia)

LeBrok
04-05-16, 16:39
The EU will survive the current crisis in which it is in. Do not worry about that for a minute.I'm optimistic too.

Yetos
04-05-16, 22:00
th future of European Union pass through TTIP today,

the old Pigs program seems that is an obstacle anymore,

Brexit will have no meaning if TTIP is signed,

TTIP is a kind of secondary globalization,
it is the loss of power from state and people and pass to corporations,
that means less stress to common human for his vote does not matter,
but brings hungry unemployment and foreign employess/specialists to Europe,
although as always the 'angel' say that prosper will come, and things will be cheaper,
well yes i may buy iphone6 from 749 E to 499E but the only work I could find will be low salary
so again will be difficult to buy iphone6

PS
I use the device as an example,

LABERIA
04-05-16, 22:49
I think EU will survive because people of Europe want this union.

LeBrok
05-05-16, 02:52
Money talks, bulshit walks.

Yetos
05-05-16, 09:19
Money talks, bulshit walks.

shoot the bullshit, they splash, they spread, they will be everywhere
shoot the money, they cry, they shut down their mouth, they hide in scycrapers,

' and justice for all' :laughing: :laughing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGFp7saTQEU


just prepair,


''The ultimate in vanity
Exploiting their supremacy
I can't believe the things you say''


PS
when Roman empire decline
they shell the title of Ceasar for millions of denarii,
and they made 'commedian emperrors'
today we made actors as presidents and billionaires as Ceasars
Ahahahaha :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

doom is upon the ones who shold their shoul
new religion is coming and is not 'new order'
AHAHAHAHA
remember Υπατια :sad-2:
and at least die FREE with dignity,
something that both communism and capitalism took it away from our souls,


CHEAP HOLIDAY ON OTHER PEOPLE MISSERY
nahhhhh

LeBrok
05-05-16, 16:28
shoot the bullshit, they splash, they spread, they will be everywhere
shoot the money, they cry, they shut down their mouth, they hide in scycrapers,

' and justice for all' :laughing: :laughing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGFp7saTQEU


just prepair,


''The ultimate in vanity
Exploiting their supremacy
I can't believe the things you say''


PS
when Roman empire decline
they shell the title of Ceasar for millions of denarii,
and they made 'commedian emperrors'
today we made actors as presidents and billionaires as Ceasars
Ahahahaha :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

doom is upon the ones who shold their shoul
new religion is coming and is not 'new order'
AHAHAHAHA
remember Υπατια :sad-2:
and at least die FREE with dignity,
something that both communism and capitalism took it away from our souls,


CHEAP HOLIDAY ON OTHER PEOPLE MISSERY
nahhhhh
Yetos, what happened to Occupy movement, and your prediction of end of capitalism? This is how bulshit walks. You should realise by now that your understanding how world works is faulty.

Yetos
05-05-16, 17:54
Yetos, what happened to Occupy movement, and your prediction of end of capitalism? This is how bulshit walks. You should realise by now that your understanding how world works is faulty.

hahaha

well the same said the Romans but Hannibal and Huns and Goths enter,
same said the Byzantines, but Crusaders and Turks enter,
if you love the times of 'mad or weak' emperrors then it is your time,
simply look around you, who knows for a few million Dollars you can be president,

'Free porn and blood to the people' :heart:

I still wonder who burned Rome, Neron or Christians or someone else?
can you answer?


Dedicated to you, Sophia is always beautyfull, even at her last of her life she had the 'grace' of beauty
watch minute 3:50 and after 7:30 of trailer


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxoCM1yQqEA

simply, honorable 'patriot' Romans made 7 centuries to create a healthy empire, and it collapse to 2-3-4 parts after the era of 'money talks'
that time when news and media and education did not exist,
today 1 century will be enough,

PS
Do you have a 'Mexican' or a 'European' housekeeper?
at the times of Decline all 'money talks' people had a Greek or Christian one, it was considered ultimate thing to have one

PS2
if as you say 'money talks'
THEN WOULD YOU VOTE THE PRESIDENT I WANT FOR 50$ or 100$ ?
come on money talks what is your price??? 500$ ?

PS3
New world order is like 'Ceasar is god' a religion from 'above' to lower class, so it is doomed',
they might buy 1 or 2 generations time.
at the times of monotheistic religions, people are amazed by the life of simple, poor, and descent men, who fight for a reason,
the Jews who left their wealth to Egypt and desert enter Palestine,
the christians who deny 'gifts' and live in hunger, took Rome as inheritage,
etc for Islam, Reformers ...
choose to whom you sacrifice.

PS4
strange paradox, History is always repeating her shelf.

PS5
your capitalism is dead, only he does not know it yet,
but you and I know it well. the difference is that I am free, you are not.

nordicwarrior
23-06-16, 14:58
The vote is today... From what I see here in the u.s. -- England is far better leaving. I think her populace wants out, however the elites will steer the result.

nordicwarrior
23-06-16, 15:07
Populations should not be controlled by faceless boards... This removes accountability and a system with these parameters is guaranteed to fail.

bicicleur
23-06-16, 15:18
The vote is today... From what I see here in the u.s. -- England is far better leaving. I think her populace wants out, however the elites will steer the result.

the EU government is rotten, it needs a totally different approach and organisation

leaving is no solution though

Maleth
24-06-16, 07:08
the EU government is rotten, it needs a totally different approach and organisation

leaving is no solution though

Seems like its a little too late now. The writing on the wall has been there for a while and been either ignored hoping its just a phase and will just go away. Seems like Europe will have to go back to an economic union as no one really complains about that, but political Union dictated by Brussels has never really been popular, very often insensitive to the people needs, or when the sensitivity arrives it would have caused too much resentment and distress.

LeBrok
24-06-16, 16:31
Seems like its a little too late now. The writing on the wall has been there for a while and been either ignored hoping its just a phase and will just go away. Seems like Europe will have to go back to an economic union as no one really complains about that, but political Union dictated by Brussels has never really been popular, very often insensitive to the people needs, or when the sensitivity arrives it would have caused too much resentment and distress. I'm not sure if EU was more insensitive than most national governments. I think that pendulum has swung towards conservatism and nationalism these days due to slow economy, terrorism and too much immigration. In a decade the populous mood might be way different.
There might be unforeseen circumstances though. Possibly Scotland and North Ireland will separate from GB and jon EU instead? If city of London could have done it they would.


Voting by demographics:
http://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/median.png?itok=7cFh1qS-

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cls7vB7WkAATVNI.jpg
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/how-did-different-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum

The smart and the young wanted to stay in.

Maleth
24-06-16, 17:02
I'm not sure if EU was more insensitive than most national governments. I think that pendulum has swung towards conservatism and nationalism these days due to slow economy, terrorism and too much immigration. In a decade the populous mood might be way different.
There might be unforeseen circumstances though. Possibly Scotland and North Ireland will separate from GB and jon EU instead? If city of London could have done it they would.


Voting by demographics:
http://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/median.png?itok=7cFh1qS-

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cls7vB7WkAATVNI.jpg
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/how-did-different-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum

The smart and the young wanted to stay in.

Encouraging figures re age group, but its done now. Britain has to leave. The EU has to decided whether to punish or not. I think it will not. If it will not others will follow. Besides Scandinavia, Austria is hanging on a piece of string, and France is gaining momentum. Trump can be voted in for the same reasons and that will create a perfect storm. I am not normally pessimistic but I can feel some kind of Third world turmoil (not to call it war). Hopefully it will not get to that.

nordicwarrior
24-06-16, 18:22
Trump is nexT.

nordicwarrior
24-06-16, 18:26
Globalist elite have let greed dictate policy and the plebes are now awake. Awake and angry.

Angela
24-06-16, 19:18
Immigration definitely played a big part in all of this, or rather the fear of unregulated immigration from the Middle East and Africa.

To some degree it's the EU itself which is to blame for this, in the sense that it was ill-conceived, sort of "neither fish nor fowl". There were no mechanisms and no will to present a unified, sensible front in terms of the immigration. They never were able to come up with a unified policy toward the disruptions in the Middle East or North Africa which precipitated that crisis either. Even in the Balkan War right within their own borders they were totally absent in finding a solution.

To some degree Britain has always been conflicted about the EU, which I think can in part be traced back to its traditional foreign policy stance that the more they can distance themselves from the messes on the "continent" the better.

The other factor is the growing restiveness with regulation and over-regulation by people whom they didn't vote for and/or who don't have the interests of Britain itself as their first priority. In a way it's a version of America's own "no taxation without representation" position against Britain itself.

Then add in the anger at big banks and investment houses who precipitated a financial crisis but got shielded from the worst effects, and you have a perfect storm.

Whether this spreads to Scandinavia I don't know, but it might happen. The economies there are reeling from this massive influx. Well, now they know what it does to national economic numbers when you have a big group of people in your country who are not working and contributing to taxes, but are draining tax money in benefits.

Ed. Another interesting factor is that all of the negative press about Brexit couldn't swing the vote.

bicicleur
24-06-16, 20:36
the referendum was madness, playing on emotions, proving once more the stupidity of the voting mass

but if the EU would have been a lean and mean machine using common sense and not a big bureacratic tax money consuming organisation for the benefit of the politicians planning their pensions, none of this would have happened

the EU should be reengineered from ground zero, and everybody in this big organisation should be sacked and have to apply again to be evaluated whether he/she is beneficial for Europe or not, I think very few would be hired again

I'm very pessimistic, I suspect the EU will be damaged but it will survive in its present useless lame form
I want the EU to survive, but not in its present form

Yetos
24-06-16, 21:55
I still believe in the EU idea,
I know that fiscal union must be done one day,
but is the EU of 60's 70's 90's?

IS THIS EU FOR HER PEOPLE OR FOR CORPORATIONS? and silly ORGANISATIONS?

a non govermental organisation makes trafficking at Greece with Turkey,
they take peoples money and taxes, by giving rags as blankets, as humanitarian aid,
then we do not send them back, cause some corporations benefit from that,
we keep them 5-8 years to Greece or Italy, and we cheer at every activist that makes what his mind tells about,
he teach him to work without insurance and almost for free,
then other trafficking organisations like the one british Cox had , takes him, semieducated and semi specialized at tomatoe gathering and takes him to Belgium France Netherlands britain etc,
and they promote him to sweap the roads, under a neurotic muscular boss that takes the job from a mayor,
or to wash dishes from a meal that cost more than 100 E a sum that he gather at 2 months,
is that how we expect to assimilate them?

and all that rich from 'immigrant slaves' goes where? to people? to citizens?
No they already do not own their properties and jobs etc,
they only work to pay taxes and penalties, cause some 'smart' politicians give money to such organisations, and some other take loans from bankers, no matter the cost, cause they will not pay them,
the middle class will do that,

Is this the EU we want or dreamed at 50's?

can a European give correct borders of EU?

Yetos
24-06-16, 22:18
Globalist elite have let greed dictate policy and the plebes are now awake. Awake and angry.

true and wise words,

and now what we have?
1) either to change the globalists,
2)either to change the plebes and bring new (immigrants)

the voting analysis at UK is clear,
original English vote exit by reaching >60 % at some areas
Muslim immigrant English vote remain at >70 % at London

Maleth
24-06-16, 22:25
Ed. Another interesting factor is that all of the negative press about Brexit couldn't swing the vote.

Indeed, Obama, Beckham, Religious authorities, Heads of financial institutions, Economists, most artists and more all lobbied for remain....even the murder of Jo Cox, one would have thought would influence the vote. It might be only nearly a 2% lead, but having all these heavy weights suggesting/advising for a remain vote, its a much bigger win then the number it represents. Just to keep with the subject, I believe the EU will survive one way or another at any rate.

As you well said and being familiar with British (more English) psyche, they never ever really felt part of Europe probably through relatively history of owing the greatest empire in the world and very often got the feeling that the UK is like an entity on its own. So in all honesty I am not sure why people are so shocked. If anything and as Lebrok age / voting pattern suggests is, that younger people in reality seem to have warmed up much more to a European project then their older peers. The initial entry of Britain in the EU was when it was EEC which was different then it is today and much more of an economic Union. I truly believe that if the referendum has taken place say 10 years ago we would have seen a much bigger win for the leave campaign.

Yetos
24-06-16, 22:41
@ maleth

do you know the story of Cox? her organisation, the refrigator truck, and the call to NY?
to some British, she was a hero
to some other British, a trafficker, that spread unemployment to locals

Promenade
24-06-16, 22:51
I'm not sure if EU was more insensitive than most national governments. I think that pendulum has swung towards conservatism and nationalism these days due to slow economy, terrorism and too much immigration. In a decade the populous mood might be way different.
There might be unforeseen circumstances though. Possibly Scotland and North Ireland will separate from GB and jon EU instead? If city of London could have done it they would.


Voting by demographics:
http://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/median.png?itok=7cFh1qS-

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cls7vB7WkAATVNI.jpg
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/how-did-different-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum

The smart and the young wanted to stay in.

I would say it's a fair assertion to claim that the young wanted to stay in, but this analysis at the end here of "the young and the smart" is quite weak and misses the global trend that is taking place across almost all western countries.

First I want to say that I've seen your posts here Lebrok, it's obvious to me you are an intelligent individual. So there is no need on your part to pretend intelligence or "smarts" is the equivalent of not receiving a higher education. I point this out because it completely misses the point of a very important trend taking place, one which is much more highly correlated with income, the factor you failed to comment on. Western Countries are facing an identity crisis whithin their own populations, the split of which is being created by the two very different lifestyles created by those who have wealth and those without it in an increasingly globalized world.


The upper class establishment of western countries favor the status quo which produces their authority, wealth and lifestyle. They are reared in a much more globalized environment compared to a person of the working class. They grow up in large multi cultural cities without much interaction with the native population other than other people of the upper class.(who may or may not be foreign themselves) When they go on vacation they do not go to the countryside but to foreign countries. These same foreign countries are the places where their families wealth is created. He finds the other elites of Madrid, Berlin, Paris, New York, Los Angeles more familiar to him than his countrymen living in the suburbs around the city he was born.


The working class perspective is much different. Take immigration for example. When an immigrant moves into the country, he moves into the traditional neighborhood of the working class man. The working class man now sees the area he grew up in become a foreign place. He has to compete with this new immigrant for a job and access to healthcare. He has to deal with the crime the immigrants commit in his community which no longer resembles that of his childhood. He has to watch his own culture of the place he called home change before his eyes. Meanwhile the upper class man never experiences any of these factors, they live in a globalized world sheltered from the repercussions the working man has to live with. The upper class man never developed the same sense of home, culture and nationality as the working class man. His culture is that of his class, his home is where he can obtain more wealth and therefore his nationality is global


The elitist education of the upper class leads them to believe they know best for everyone, including the working class of their own country which they know almost nothing about other than that these people "are living in the past". The truth is both groups are living in the same present and that this present has created two very different worlds for people with money and those who work to obtain it. Western countries are now split between the wealthy establishment enforcing a globalist outlook which drives their profit and a resentful working class reacting to the elites in their country ignoring their existence. The only reason we are seeing a shift toward the right wing tendencies is because the elites are now made up of the left, albeit a capitalistic left. The deeper fissure that has created this move toward the right is actually a populist/elitist divide and it's important to understand this.


The issue of Trump in America and Brexit in the UK is a nativist working class reaction to neglect from a globaly minded elite who have ignored the needs of the native working class so much they have radicalized them to an extent. What's interesting to me is the media and the elite do not even see this divide. They have become so obsessed with their elite status and "highly educated" opinion they believe it's sufficient to call everyone who disagrees with them "dumb, racist and ignorant" and that the simple minds of the majority of the population are being coerced by "sensationalism and demagoguery". I mean, why else would they not just do everything the elites wish them to?




Of course I am writing in a biased fashion in favor of the populist outlook. But can anyone blame me when the elites have so thoroughly neglected the opinions of the average citizen in favor for what they stubbornly believe is best for everyone else when in reality they are only self serving?

Maleth
24-06-16, 22:58
@Yetos,

Never heard that to be honest. This is what I read about the murderer "West Yorkshire Police says the mental health of the man who killed Jo Cox as well as his alleged right-wing links are clear lines of inquiry into the fatal attack on the Labour Party MP. Here’s more from Dee Collins, the temporary chief constable" what is it about the refrigerated truck?

Athiudisc
24-06-16, 23:01
The issue of Trump in America and Brexit in the UK is a nativist working class reaction to neglect from a globaly minded elite who have ignored the needs of the native working class so much they have radicalized them to an extent. What's interesting to me is the media and the elite do not even see this divide. They have become so obsessed with their elite status and "highly educated" opinion they believe it's sufficient to call everyone who disagrees with them "dumb, racist and ignorant" and that the simple minds of the majority of the population are being coerced by "sensationalism and demagoguery". I mean, why else would they not just do everything the elites wish them to?

This is pretty tough to disagree with, regardless of what one feels towards the sentiments discussed themselves.

Even if the needs and desires of the proletariat were partially in their own minds alone, blowing them off as stupid and racist reaps predictable rewards.

Yetos
24-06-16, 23:19
@Yetos,

Never heard that to be honest. This is what I read about the murderer "West Yorkshire Police says the mental health of the man who killed Jo Cox as well as his alleged right-wing links are clear lines of inquiry into the fatal attack on the Labour Party MP. Here’s more from Dee Collins, the temporary chief constable" what is it about the refrigerated truck?


I will send you email,

Maleth
24-06-16, 23:27
I will send you email,

Thanks..............

Angela
25-06-16, 00:06
Indeed, Obama, Beckham, Religious authorities, Heads of financial institutions, Economists, most artists and more all lobbied for remain....even the murder of Jo Cox, one would have thought would influence the vote. It might be only nearly a 2% lead, but having all these heavy weights suggesting/advising for a remain vote, its a much bigger win then the number it represents. Just to keep with the subject, I believe the EU will survive one way or another at any rate.

As you well said and being familiar with British (more English) psyche, they never ever really felt part of Europe probably through relatively history of owing the greatest empire in the world and very often got the feeling that the UK is like an entity on its own. So in all honesty I am not sure why people are so shocked. If anything and as Lebrok age / voting pattern suggests is, that younger people in reality seem to have warmed up much more to a European project then their older peers. The initial entry of Britain in the EU was when it was EEC which was different then it is today and much more of an economic Union. I truly believe that if the referendum has taken place say 10 years ago we would have seen a much bigger win for the leave campaign.

My reading of the history is that Britain pursued its empire abroad and in Europe it had a policy of balance of power. It was predicated on a belief that Britain would only be secure if no single continental power took control of all of Europe. Who knows if young English people are even taught this any more in school, and even if it is taught they may not care, but for older people this distrust of the continental powers may still resonate. I've been listening to English politicians who campaigned for Brexit and there is certainly an echo of that in the things they're saying.

Also, as I said, Britain's participation was always rather half-hearted. They stayed out of the Euro, which turned out to be a good idea.

I've always had a great deal of respect for the British sense of realpolitik.

These same politicians seem to rather hope they can strengthen their ties with the U.S. (and with all the other "Anglo" countries as well), in which case it's a good idea that Obama is leaving since he came down heavily on them remaining in the Union.

nordicwarrior
25-06-16, 00:29
Laughing at the bias of Sky news... Almost as see through as our MSNBC.

nordicwarrior
25-06-16, 00:33
A note to the people of England ... Relax all will be well. Look to Iceland for a proper path forward.

Maleth
25-06-16, 01:05
A note to the people of England ... Relax all will be well. Look to Iceland for a proper path forward.

There is Norway and Switzerland too. Iceland not the best model. However they all have different type of economies and Britain's outcome can be different. Only time will tell. I bet most people do not know the real implications. Britian had mass migration (Asia / Africa) from all around the empire MANY years before it joined the EU and its not a new phenomena. I wish Britain well, but I hope if things go sour, they will not blame Brussels for it, and who ever promised Utopia will be held responsible without finding scapegoats. Now its just a matter of time. I consider it an experiment, like many others we had through the centuries. Wether we like it or not the world has changed since the hay days of ruling a big chunk of the Earth. And the commonwealth is merely a symbolic group of Ex colonies with hardly any economic significance. What we really know is that Britain has become much wealthier since it joined the EU. Whats going to happen now is just a closed box.

nordicwarrior
25-06-16, 01:21
Point of clarification-- in no way do I hold Brussels or any area of Germany responsible for the implementation of the EU.

Maleth
25-06-16, 01:30
My reading of the history is that Britain pursued its empire abroad and in Europe it had a policy of balance of power. It was predicated on a belief that Britain would only be secure if no single continental power took control of all of Europe. Who knows if young English people are even taught this any more in school, and even if it is taught they may not care, but for older people this distrust of the continental powers may still resonate. I've been listening to English politicians who campaigned for Brexit and there is certainly an echo of that in the things they're saying.

Also, as I said, Britain's participation was always rather half-hearted. They stayed out of the Euro, which turned out to be a good idea.

I've always had a great deal of respect for the British sense of realpolitik.

These same politicians seem to rather hope they can strengthen their ties with the U.S. (and with all the other "Anglo" countries as well), in which case it's a good idea that Obama is leaving since he came down heavily on them remaining in the Union.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pfv8dU1mUE

Maybe the commonwealth will be strengthened too although globalisation would need more friends and allies and working in bigger blocks seem to give better leverage in negotiations. Time will tell. I consider it as an experiment. We know the past but no one knows the future. The real change is going to come if Le pan keeps breaking ground in France, as that would really shake the foundations of the EU to a point of no return, mix that with someone like Trump at the helm of the strongest country in the world. Then we have a new world order.....probably a case of history repeating itself. It happened time and time again through the course of world history, we are clearly moving that way.

Maleth
25-06-16, 02:02
Point of clarification-- in no way do I hold Brussels or any area of Germany responsible for the implementation of the EU.

Europe JUST 76 years ago........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPF7LkC_kkc

Europe today

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRwZyDTdCAc

chose your pick

LeBrok
25-06-16, 03:29
Europe JUST 76 years ago........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPF7LkC_kkc

Europe today

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRwZyDTdCAc

chose your pick
Surely it puts things into perspective! Today's european problems are like "Much ado about nothing" when placed against happenings of WW2.
Ah, the first world problems of today...

Boreas
25-06-16, 05:30
Perform the same visa policy to Britain as Turkey. They will start to talk to get in EU, in 6 months and after one year, they will probably held another referendum. :grin:

bicicleur
25-06-16, 08:03
Europe JUST 76 years ago........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPF7LkC_kkc

Europe today

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRwZyDTdCAc

chose your pick

the second video is a propaganda video made by todays EU politicians
todays EU politicians are a far cry from the great post war politicians that formed the EU

bicicleur
25-06-16, 08:05
Perform the same visa policy to Britain as Turkey. They will start to talk to get in EU, in 6 months and after one year, they will probably held another referendum. :grin:

punishing those who leave the EU are a bad argument for the EU
countries should stay in the EU for the benefits it brings, not for fear of punishment of those who leave

Voyager
25-06-16, 08:24
Europe JUST 76 years ago........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPF7LkC_kkc

Europe today

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRwZyDTdCAc

chose your pick
Certainly the situation looks better now than 75 years ago. But, BUT!, I think the situation is POTENTIALY much worse than before. We are all seated on an economical volcano! In fact, most of the European States are in complete Bankruptcy situation partly because of the Euro and reponsability dilution. Our economical situation is very very instable and much more fragile than before then this could get worse very quickly and worse than ever.

Maleth
25-06-16, 10:46
the second video is a propaganda video made by todays EU politicians
todays EU politicians are a far cry from the great post war politicians that formed the EU

Propaganda usually means giving false or misleading information. Do you sincerely find much of that?

LeBrok
25-06-16, 15:08
Certainly the situation looks better now than 75 years ago.
Aren't you contradicting yourself?

But, BUT!, I think the situation is POTENTIALY much worse than before.

LeBrok
25-06-16, 16:20
I would say it's a fair assertion to claim that the young wanted to stay in, but this analysis at the end here of "the young and the smart" is quite weak and misses the global trend that is taking place across almost all western countries.Certainly I used it as a quick cheap shot, because of lack of time to dive into this complex situation. However there is big dose of truth in it.


First I want to say that I've seen your posts here Lebrok, it's obvious to me you are an intelligent individual. So there is no need on your part to pretend intelligence or "smarts" is the equivalent of not receiving a higher education. I point this out because it completely misses the point of a very important trend taking place, one which is much more highly correlated with income, the factor you failed to comment on. Western Countries are facing an identity crisis whithin their own populations, the split of which is being created by the two very different lifestyles created by those who have wealth and those without it in an increasingly globalized world.I thought it was implied that smart equals educated and this equals higher income. It also implies a statistical person as we won't bother discussion individual cases of some smart but without higher degrees, or inherited wealth rich people.



The upper class establishment of western countries favor the status quo which produces their authority, wealth and lifestyle. They are reared in a much more globalized environment compared to a person of the working class. They grow up in large multi cultural cities without much interaction with the native population other than other people of the upper class.(who may or may not be foreign themselves) When they go on vacation they do not go to the countryside but to foreign countries. These same foreign countries are the places where their families wealth is created. He finds the other elites of Madrid, Berlin, Paris, New York, Los Angeles more familiar to him than his countrymen living in the suburbs around the city he was born.There is not even a smallest guarantee that separated GB will improve lives of working class.



The working class perspective is much different. Take immigration for example. When an immigrant moves into the country, he moves into the traditional neighborhood of the working class man. The working class man now sees the area he grew up in become a foreign place. He has to compete with this new immigrant for a job and access to healthcare. He has to deal with the crime the immigrants commit in his community which no longer resembles that of his childhood. He has to watch his own culture of the place he called home change before his eyes. Meanwhile the upper class man never experiences any of these factors, they live in a globalized world sheltered from the repercussions the working man has to live with. The upper class man never developed the same sense of home, culture and nationality as the working class man. His culture is that of his class, his home is where he can obtain more wealth and therefore his nationality is globalI don't think this has anything to do with classes. For last few decades you could be a working class and travel a lot, use internet to see the world and meet people online, watch international TV, etc. In my life I went through all the classes, except the upper class, and I never felt alienated or isolated from the world. It is more about attitude and understanding than economic status.
Age statistics confirm this too. Look at statistics of voting, young versus old generation. Young people feel more like citizens of EU. They grew up in more open and inclusive world, the old generation didn't.



The elitist education of the upper class leads them to believe they know best for everyone, including the working class of their own country which they know almost nothing about other than that these people "are living in the past". The truth is both groups are living in the same present and that this present has created two very different worlds for people with money and those who work to obtain it. Western countries are now split between the wealthy establishment enforcing a globalist outlook which drives their profit and a resentful working class reacting to the elites in their country ignoring their existence. The only reason we are seeing a shift toward the right wing tendencies is because the elites are now made up of the left, albeit a capitalistic left. The deeper fissure that has created this move toward the right is actually a populist/elitist divide and it's important to understand this.
That's how some people (socio economists) are trying to explain the situation, but i'm not convinced it is true, or effect of "dissatisfaction of working class" is very minimal in total political spectrum to produce substantial effect. More below.


The issue of Trump in America and Brexit in the UK is a nativist working class reaction to neglect from a globaly minded elite who have ignored the needs of the native working class so much they have radicalized them to an extent. What's interesting to me is the media and the elite do not even see this divide. They have become so obsessed with their elite status and "highly educated" opinion they believe it's sufficient to call everyone who disagrees with them "dumb, racist and ignorant" and that the simple minds of the majority of the population are being coerced by "sensationalism and demagoguery". I mean, why else would they not just do everything the elites wish them to?The return to conservatism and isolationism comes from few factors. First one, it exists in all of us and it gets unleashed due to external circumstances, like being threatened or dissatisfied. In recent years we have rise of IS and quite few terrorists attacks in the West, followed by overwhelming waves of immigrants/strangers. There has been also a prolonged economic crisis which created many dissatisfied groups in population. It is natural to blame the others for own misfortune. There are always the Mexicans, Syrians, the rich, politicians, Chinese, Jews, ruling elite, media, social libertarians, masons, capitalists, bankers, etc
It doesn't matter if the scared and the dissatisfied are right or wrong, they always react in same isolationist and conservative way.
I don't mean conservative as a political term, but as a natural state of human psyche, which makes you prefer to stay with the things and people you know and grew up with. And away from the new, the strange and what you don't understand. Typical "protect your tribe" instinct, and very strong in many people.





Of course I am writing in a biased fashion in favor of the populist outlook. But can anyone blame me when the elites have so thoroughly neglected the opinions of the average citizen in favor for what they stubbornly believe is best for everyone else when in reality they are only self serving?Average citizen has better life than ever. It is fatter than ever, drives a better car than ever, has bigger fridge than ever, bigger and prettier home than ever, cheaper vacations than ever, cheaper cloths than ever, bigger TV than ever, and walks around with cellphone/computer/gps/maps/internet/email/TV/music/HD video camera/notes/wallet, etc. Technology which would cost 2 million dollars 30 years ago, and some didn't exist. Middle class kids don't rush to work anymore, but linger around houses as long as they can. Life is good for middle class.

Voyager
25-06-16, 17:59
Aren't you contradicting yourself?
Not at all. The situation looks , appears to be peacefull but in fact, the sovereign debts of the European States are a real threat and potentialy very grave and harmfull.

LeBrok
25-06-16, 18:59
Not at all. The situation looks , appears to be peacefull but in fact, the sovereign debts of the European States are a real threat and potentialy very grave and harmfull.
Are you equating 60 million Europeans killed, cities in ruins, during WW2 to financial problems of today's Europe?!!!

Boreas
25-06-16, 19:26
punishing those who leave the EU are a bad argument for the EU
countries should stay in the EU for the benefits it brings, not for fear of punishment of those who leave


If you give the benefits before get in the EU, of cource Norway-Switzerland and UK won't see any benefits which they can have it after get in the EU.

German and French tax payers give their money to develop Mediterreanean and East part of Europe, but those countries???

Yetos
25-06-16, 19:38
If you give the benefits before get in the EU, of cource Norway-Switzerland and UK won't see any benefits which they can have it after get in the EU.

German and French tax payers give their money to develop Mediterreanean and East part of Europe, but those countries???


partially correct,
but they have also easy markets, no custom taxes, and secure profit,
cause they sell at these countries,
THE DIFFICULT TODAY IS NOT TO MAKE PRODUCTION, IS TO FIND THE MARKET,
the economical crush of USA at early 20 century had that smell,

Besides, that secures that some Mediterennean countries will not make new 'economical' alliances,
so they pay, BUT THEY ALSO CONTROL

consider it Turkey with Azerbaizan,
Azerbaizan produces oil, but even today no matter so treaties only Turkey absorves it, and the most secure market of Turkey is Azerbaizan

Voyager
25-06-16, 19:54
Are you equating 60 million Europeans killed, cities in ruins, during WW2 to financial problems of today's Europe?!!!
Doing equation like that is irrelevant. It s more relevant to say that Economical disaster could trigger uncontroled situation of course even worse. I remind you that WWII was the consequence of 1929 economical crisis. You seem to think that the European sovereign Debts are a light problem.

LeBrok
25-06-16, 20:56
Doing equation like that is irrelevant. It s more relevant to say that Economical disaster could trigger uncontroled situation of course even worse. Keep in mind that you now compare facts of WW2 to fictional disaster in the future. We don't know if it is going to happen and if happens, how sever it will become. It is hard to compare and impossible to equate.
Perhaps you wanted to compare causes and not consequences? But again, we don't know if current economic situation is a cause of hypothetical disaster.



I remind you that WWII was the consequence of 1929 economical crisis. You seem to think that the European sovereign Debts are a light problem.Actually crises ended in 1935 good few years before the war. Just before the war Germany was economical powerhouse of Europe again. The bigger reason for Germany to start WW2 was the defeat and humiliation of losing WW1 and many sanctions, restrictions and reparations they needed to pay. Let's not underestimate a role of psychopaths like Hitler and Stalin, having dictatorial powers, terror and monopoly on propaganda, sick ideologies, and leading their nations to expansion. One to rule the world by super race and weed it out of subhumans, the other to bring liberation and justice to working class of the world.
Mind you that these prerequisites of WW2 don't exist in today's Europe. Well, except ambitious dictator Putin, who hates EU. Britexit makes him very happy by the way. Though Russia is no economic disposition to start war with Nato. They have 3 trillion economy against 30 trillion economy of Nato countries.

ElHorsto
26-06-16, 02:24
...............................


Three-fifths of Czechs said they were unhappy with EU membership and 62 percent said they would vote against it in a referendum, according to an October 2015 poll by the STEM agency.
"If Britain leaves the EU, we can expect debates about leaving the EU in a few years too,"


Source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/czechrepublic/12170994/Czechs-will-follow-Britain-out-of-EU.html)

nordicwarrior
26-06-16, 15:18
Yes Oriental, it's been a long time.

I've returned from eupedia retirement to address this subject-- it is that important.

ElHorsto
26-06-16, 19:02
Actually crises ended in 1935 good few years before the war. Just before the war Germany was economical powerhouse of Europe again. The bigger reason for Germany to start WW2 was...

The reason why Germany became an economical powerhouse under Hitler is a much debated question. But the two major reasons are clear:

1. The preceding economic depression directly was the cause of 2), see next

2. Preparation for war is the standard economic stimulus if everything else fails. And this is what is repeating currently. The war preparation was the direct result of the preceding economic crisis, and the economic boom was the direct result of these war preparations. I'm aware that this is an inconvenient truth.

The credits for war preparations were available due to a financial trickery by Hjalmar Schacht, called "MEFO bill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mefo_bills)s". It was an unofficial sort of currency, backed by trust in expected war profits. There is some resemblance with the current money printing going on since 2008, but it is not fully the same yet, because it is not so specifically war-oriented. But one should keep an eye on these developments, because it's very interesting. Also there was gold currency back then, making such extreme cheating necessary, while the fiat money of today already has some built-in cheating possibilities.

That being said, Hitler also got a lot of funding from all directions.

bicicleur
26-06-16, 20:01
Propaganda usually means giving false or misleading information. Do you sincerely find much of that?

giving very one-sided info is also propaganda to me
if you want to use another word for it, ok

bicicleur
26-06-16, 20:10
Actually crises ended in 1935 good few years before the war. Just before the war Germany was economical powerhouse of Europe again. The bigger reason for Germany to start WW2 was the defeat and humiliation of losing WW1 and many sanctions, restrictions and reparations they needed to pay. Let's not underestimate a role of psychopaths like Hitler and Stalin, having dictatorial powers, terror and monopoly on propaganda, sick ideologies, and leading their nations to expansion. One to rule the world by super race and weed it out of subhumans, the other to bring liberation and justice to working class of the world.
Mind you that these prerequisites of WW2 don't exist in today's Europe. Well, except ambitious dictator Putin, who hates EU. Britexit makes him very happy by the way. Though Russia is no economic disposition to start war with Nato. They have 3 trillion economy against 30 trillion economy of Nato countries.

Germany was in a much deeper economical crisis than other countries, and they blaimed the harsh measurments after WW I for it.
Hittler got the credit for resolving the crisis and ignoring the sanctions imposed by the Versailles treaty.
That was why so many Germans unconditionally followed him.

I agree, it's a scenario that is not possible today.

Minty
14-07-16, 04:26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pfv8dU1mUE

Maybe the commonwealth will be strengthened too although globalisation would need more friends and allies and working in bigger blocks seem to give better leverage in negotiations. Time will tell. I consider it as an experiment. We know the past but no one knows the future. The real change is going to come if Le pan keeps breaking ground in France, as that would really shake the foundations of the EU to a point of no return, mix that with someone like Trump at the helm of the strongest country in the world. Then we have a new world order.....probably a case of history repeating itself. It happened time and time again through the course of world history, we are clearly moving that way.

No, the EU will be gone in five years time. In the papers they are saying the British want same deal they used to have with the EU with Australian and the kiwis instead. In terms of trade, they will look for all others who want to trade with them. Commonwealth is a good place to start...