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Maciamo
15-05-14, 19:22
Sikora et al. (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004353) published a new paper comparing the genome of two 2,500-year-old Iron Age Thracians (P192-1 and K8) with Ötzi (Chalcolithic Alps), Gök4 and ajv70 (Neolithic Sweden), brana1 (Mesolithic Spain) and Swedish hunter-gatherers. The admixture comparison is particularly interesting.

The P192-1 individual falls in the farmer category and resembles most Ötzi and Gök4. The admixture is similar to modern Italians, but with a substantial (+- 20%) amount of Southwest Asian (Bedouin, Palestinian and Mozabite).

On the other hand, K8 is closer to the hunter-gatherers and resembles most modern French and German people. The most interesting is that the K8 individual "was excavated from an aristocratic inhumation burial containing rich grave goods, indicating a high social standing, as opposed to the other individual, who was found in a pit."

It is fascinating that such stark differences of admixture persisted as recently as 500 BCE among the Thracians, over a thousand years after their appearance in the Balkans. If K8 wasn't a recent arrival from the steppes, it suggests that a long-lasting apartheid took place between the ruling elite and the farmers.


http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004353.g001&representation=PNG_L

ebAmerican
15-05-14, 20:38
There is a lot of uncertainty in the admixture results of the K8 individual according to the study. The two samples had the fewest available SNPs to compare. The difference between K8 and P192-1 could be modern contamination. Do we have any admixture results of Ancient Greek burials? I wonder if P192-1 was a captured slave from the Aegean, and not a Thracian. How do we know other than P192-1 was buried in Thrace that he was a Thracian?

Nobody1
15-05-14, 21:26
There is a lot of uncertainty in the admixture results of the K8 individual according to the study. The two samples had the fewest available SNPs to compare. The difference between K8 and P192-1 could be modern contamination. Do we have any admixture results of Ancient Greek burials? I wonder if P192-1 was a captured slave from the Aegean, and not a Thracian. How do we know other than P192-1 was buried in Thrace that he was a Thracian?

Carpenter et al 2013 -
Sample P192-1 was found at the site of a pit sanctuary near Svilengrad, Bulgaria, excavated between 2004 and 2006. The pits are associated with the Thracian culture and date to the Early Iron Age (800–500 BC) based on pottery found in the pits. A total of 67 ritual pits, including 16 pits containing human skeletons or parts of skeletons, were explored during the excavations. An upper wisdom tooth from an adult male was used for DNA analysis.

Obviously part of a Thracian culture and Thracian ritual burial (the entire site); Lets see what results they get for earlier V2 (Bronze-age) and T2G2 (early Iron-age); And hopefully they are not (burdened with a pos.) contamination like K8;

Sile
15-05-14, 21:49
There is a lot of uncertainty in the admixture results of the K8 individual according to the study. The two samples had the fewest available SNPs to compare. The difference between K8 and P192-1 could be modern contamination. Do we have any admixture results of Ancient Greek burials? I wonder if P192-1 was a captured slave from the Aegean, and not a Thracian. How do we know other than P192-1 was buried in Thrace that he was a Thracian?

You can ask that question on every ancient finding as noted above. But commoners (192.1) are more accurate in defining the populace. "royaly" move around more often. We see this in ancient and modern times...........remember the non-english speaking Kings/royals of 18th century England!

I would like to also include the El Portalón ( a basque with Tuscan genes) in these ancient studies............my theory is that if the studies on EEF-WHG and ANE are accurate, then bulgarians, Bergamo, south-French and Pas-vasco who are all very very similar in EEF would indicate so type of migrational route

Sile
15-05-14, 21:52
Carpenter et al 2013 -
Sample P192-1 was found at the site of a pit sanctuary near Svilengrad, Bulgaria, excavated between 2004 and 2006. The pits are associated with the Thracian culture and date to the Early Iron Age (800–500 BC) based on pottery found in the pits. A total of 67 ritual pits, including 16 pits containing human skeletons or parts of skeletons, were explored during the excavations. An upper wisdom tooth from an adult male was used for DNA analysis.

Obviously part of a Thracian culture and Thracian ritual burial (the entire site); Lets see what results they get for earlier V2 (Bronze-age) and T2G2 (early Iron-age); And hopefully they are not (burdened with a pos.) contamination like K8;

IIRC , k8 was identified as having a "GETIC" burial? .........I do realise the Getae where one branch of the 4 Thracians tribal branches

Knovas
15-05-14, 22:25
Clusters such as Basque or Sardinian aren't a good choice to get accurate results. But seems like K8 was quite similar to La Braña at least (assuming there's no contamination), an individual found to be more "Mediterranean" than expected in many calculators/experiments. The new results apparently match for him...I think it's not the same relevant for ajv70.

I would like to trust K8 results, but it's a bit hard to believe. Could also be the number of SNPs as someone noted above.

ebAmerican
15-05-14, 22:32
I should of read the article more closely. The two individuals are separated by a possible 400 years and reside in two different archeological areas 64 miles apart. K8 was found in a tumulus outside Sliven and P192-1 was found outside of Svilengrad in a pit. It may be a result of proximity (P192-1 found closer to Anatolia and the Aegean). K8 was found with other Roman aged tumulus. I wonder if these Roman era individuals have the same admixture as k8?

Sile- I understand, but the scope of rule was small around this time period (800-400bc) and rule would have been very localized (tribal). I doubt this represents a ruling class or a commoner class, but more of a proximity thing.

Sile
15-05-14, 23:17
I should of read the article more closely. The two individuals are separated by a possible 400 years and reside in two different archeological areas 64 miles apart. K8 was found in a tumulus outside Sliven and P192-1 was found outside of Svilengrad in a pit. It may be a result of proximity (P192-1 found closer to Anatolia and the Aegean). K8 was found with other Roman aged tumulus. I wonder if these Roman era individuals have the same admixture as k8?

Sile- I understand, but the scope of rule was small around this time period (800-400bc) and rule would have been very localized (tribal). I doubt this represents a ruling class or a commoner class, but more of a proximity thing.

The admixture is in post #1
192.1 fits the tuscan model and IMO K8 fits the french model , which is what maciamo said

Angela
15-05-14, 23:21
How quickly they forget. (Sile, this is a joke, or at least a bit of levity!) Since it seems one must be literal around here, I will continue...the topic was also discussed here...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29957-Genome-of-Iron-Age-Thracian?highlight=Thrac

Nobody1
15-05-14, 23:49
IIRC , k8 was identified as having a "GETIC" burial? .........I do realise the Getae where one branch of the 4 Thracians tribal branches

It was def. an Iron-age Tumulus and the site corresponds to the earlier Thraco-Cimmerian complex; T2G2 (R2D2) is closer in time to the Thraco-Cimmerian complex than K8 and also from a Tumulus; Hopefully no one contaminated that sample; The Getae might be too specific and dwelled more north than these locations; The entire site of P192-1 is uniformed in its burial rites and belonged to the Thracian culture but could be in contrast to the Tumuli sites more remnant Neolithic;


The admixture is in post #1
192.1 fits the tuscan model and IMO K8 fits the french model , which is what maciamo said

From the PCA (Figure S2) P192-1 and K8 cluster amongst all Europeans with P192-1 closer to some French and Tuscan samples and K8 right in the middle of all and closest to Russian/Orcadian/Italian/French samples; Neolithic-TRB Gök4 is in fact the closest to Tuscans and North Italians (in study:Italians) all of them sharing mutual levels of Sardinian and Russian ancestry [K=6/K=8] -"gok4 has a slightly lower proportion of the Sardinian cluster than the Iceman, and most closely resembles the Tuscans and Northern Italians, in agreement with the results of Skoglund et al." represented also in the PCA (Figure S2) and something also a Lazaridis PCA concluded;

ebAmerican
16-05-14, 00:03
The admixture is in post #1
192.1 fits the tuscan model and IMO K8 fits the french model , which is what maciamo said

I was talking about Maciamo's conclusion about a French like HG ruling over a Farmer like Tuscan. I was merely pointing out that it may be localized, and if a tumulus was found along side P-192.1 that his admixture would probably be the same. The two finds are 64 miles apart. The Persians had a strong influence over Thrace. Maybe the Berber markers come from this relationship. The other samples did not have any Berber (North African) admixture.

Sile
16-05-14, 02:10
It was def. an Iron-age Tumulus and the site corresponds to the earlier Thraco-Cimmerian complex; T2G2 (R2D2) is closer in time to the Thraco-Cimmerian complex than K8 and also from a Tumulus; Hopefully no one contaminated that sample; The Getae might be too specific and dwelled more north than these locations; The entire site of P192-1 is uniformed in its burial rites and belonged to the Thracian culture but could be in contrast to the Tumuli sites more remnant Neolithic;



From the PCA (Figure S2) P192-1 and K8 cluster amongst all Europeans with P192-1 closer to some French and Tuscan samples and K8 right in the middle of all and closest to Russian/Orcadian/Italian/French samples; Neolithic-TRB Gök4 is in fact the closest to Tuscans and North Italians (in study:Italians) all of them sharing mutual levels of Sardinian and Russian ancestry [K=6/K=8] -"gok4 has a slightly lower proportion of the Sardinian cluster than the Iceman, and most closely resembles the Tuscans and Northern Italians, in agreement with the results of Skoglund et al." represented also in the PCA (Figure S2) and something also a Lazaridis PCA concluded;

the 192.1 fits into the "purer" of the thracian tribes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom

and not the Triballi, Dacian or Getae ones

As for the term Getic funeral for K8, well someone sent a link describing the k8 funeral burial type and it was known as a Getic type

I agree with the PCA you mentioned........wasn't Gok4 a female!

kamani
16-05-14, 03:49
On the other hand, K8 is closer to the hunter-gatherers and resembles most modern French and German people. The most interesting is that the K8 individual "was excavated from an aristocratic inhumation burial containing rich grave goods, indicating a high social standing,

omg, I have been saying this since last year when it was being discussed how come Albanians have more I1+R1b than anyone else in ex-Jugoslavia. (Pericic et al)

PS. The ~7% Bedouin percentage of P192-1 goes on the E-v13 tab.

Nobody1
16-05-14, 07:37
the 192.1 fits into the "purer" of the thracian tribes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom

and not the Triballi, Dacian or Getae ones

As for the term Getic funeral for K8, well someone sent a link describing the k8 funeral burial type and it was known as a Getic type

I agree with the PCA you mentioned........wasn't Gok4 a female!

Gök4 was a female in 2012 but that changed in 2014;

Skoglund 2014 -
previous morphological analyses have indicated that Gökhem2, Gökhem4 and Gökhem7 (32-34) were females. The morphology of Gökhem4 (a mandible) was, however, not fully diagnostic and the sample was later determined as male based on genetic analyses (35)

Small mistake, can happen;

Maciamo
16-05-14, 08:49
How quickly they forget. (Sile, this is a joke, or at least a bit of levity!) Since it seems one must be literal around here, I will continue...the topic was also discussed here...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29957-Genome-of-Iron-Age-Thracian?highlight=Thrac

Thanks, Angela. I was away for a few days and didn't see that you already posted this study.

Angela
16-05-14, 16:20
Thanks, Angela. I was away for a few days and didn't see that you already posted this study.

No problem at all. :smile: I just thought it would be good to link the two threads for those who are interested in the topic.

polako
17-05-14, 10:27
From the PCA (Figure S2) P192-1 and K8 cluster amongst all Europeans with P192-1 closer to some French and Tuscan samples and K8 right in the middle of all and closest to Russian/Orcadian/Italian/French samples; Neolithic-TRB Gök4 is in fact the closest to Tuscans and North Italians (in study:Italians) all of them sharing mutual levels of Sardinian and Russian ancestry [K=6/K=8] -"gok4 has a slightly lower proportion of the Sardinian cluster than the Iceman, and most closely resembles the Tuscans and Northern Italians, in agreement with the results of Skoglund et al." represented also in the PCA (Figure S2) and something also a Lazaridis PCA concluded;

Projection bias.

Learn what it is before interpreting the PCA from this study.

Nobody1
18-05-14, 08:12
Projection bias.

Learn what it is before interpreting the PCA from this study.

That applies to all PCAs with ancient samples that use the projection method as in Carpenter 2013 and especially all those plots stemming from Uppsala; Lazaridis however used a method that rules out bias (lsqproject: YES);

Yaan
18-05-14, 10:44
There is a lot of uncertainty in the admixture results of the K8 individual according to the study. The two samples had the fewest available SNPs to compare. The difference between K8 and P192-1 could be modern contamination. Do we have any admixture results of Ancient Greek burials? I wonder if P192-1 was a captured slave from the Aegean, and not a Thracian. How do we know other than P192-1 was buried in Thrace that he was a Thracian?

Sliven and Svilengrad are both Thrace, just for the record and the Aegean washes the shores of Thrace and Macedonia regions. I want male results :)

polako
19-05-14, 01:48
That applies to all PCAs with ancient samples that use the projection method as in Carpenter 2013 and especially all those plots stemming from Uppsala; Lazaridis however used a method that rules out bias (lsqproject: YES);

lsqproject: YES doesn't correct for projection bias. It corrects for bias caused by a large number of missing SNPs. So all of the ancient samples on the PCA plots in the latest Lazaridis preprint are biased towards 0.