The Greek Speach/ ο Έλλην Λόγος

is maybe the most important language in the history of our society as a whole.

Its importance is so vital, that even nowadays modern linguists, in order to create new words, especially in science, browse the Hellenic dictionary.

In fact they keep grammar most of the times (in English see the British), and this is good, because they keep the history of words.

I wonder where it came from. It's much different than the rest of European languages.

Ike said:

I wonder where it came from. It's much different than the rest of European languages.

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nope, it is one of the most ancient forms we trully and full know,

it is connecting enough ancient Sanshqrit Avestan with rest IE,

by Greek we know surely 2-2,5 milleniums after IE entrance how was spoken at least in south Balkans but very well, than all the other forms
for example compare modern Greek 5,5 ky from IE invasions with Homeric Greek 2,5 ky , that linguistic evolution which in a different degree happened in all IE languages helps us understand many many,
and not only but helps assume the most of IE words.

and about difference the answer is no, simply evolute tottaly different,

Homer sing his poetry in a language closer to Greco-Aryan, means close enough to Georgian-Iranian (Medean) , if we could live that time we could see with other view,
Greek strangely are connected with Thracian Bryges, Phrygians spoke in the same tunes with Greeks they were isotones.
Mycenean (non Homeric Greek) is connected with both Latin and Lydian.

the split to centum satem is difficult to say how why and when happened, but Greek surely is probably one of the most and first languages that pass to centum.
the celtic linguistic evolution p-q happened also in Greek but prevailed one form only,
from the Makedonian dialect we realize that Greek language is connected with both Istros IE and anatolian languages
that is the beutyfull mystery that only Greek and Thracians shared

the only thing i might agree is that modern Greek is little bit different from other European languages, but how closer are rest European with Sanshqrit or Avestan?

Dear Sir, can you explain : What are the differencies between old greek (bizantine) language and new grek language?

@Pirro. The byzantine greek is the medieval greek,the stage of the Greek language between the beginning of the Middle Ages around 600 and the Ottoman conquest of the city of Constantinople in 1453.

Modern Greek refers to the dialects and varieties of the Greek language spoken in the modern era. The beginning of the "modern" period of the language is often symbolically assigned to the fall of the Byzantine Empire in 1453.

There are different theories about its roots.Some says that when the proto-helens entered in the balkans they encountered and mixed with another group of people, the pelasgians, which helped in the formation of the ancient greek language.There are authors who maintain different things.

Pirro said:

Dear Sir, can you explain : What are the differencies between old greek (bizantine) language and new grek language?

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The Greek language and culture is a complicated case,

we see start of Mycenean (proto-Greek) culture from Vatin mainly and Vucocar after (Serbia Croatia) after the IE 'invasion'
while Cotofeni which near yamnaa might be of Thracians,
Start point of more clear Greek/Mycanean culture is lake Lychnitis (Ohrid) and south,
Linguistic comes from Greco-Aryan LPIE (Greek-Medes) which is the first centum-satem split known.
Greek follows also the evolution of P and Q celtic (Ikkos/ippos)
Ancient Greek was isotones with Thracian, at least the Brygian/Phrygian branch,
the proto Greek languages we know are Mycenean and Homeric,
Greek aspirations might come from the mix of IE that came from Vatin or Minor Asia with previous Pelasgians, or with Anatolian IE brances (the case of Arzawa/assuwa is something that discussed)

Greek was divided to amny dialects, but 3 major
the Mycenean
the Hellenic Dorian and last Makedonian
the Pelasgian Ionian Aeolian

from Homer and Mycaenae we have a pause due to Sea paoples, (could be another wave of pelasgians)

then we see the restart in a language called Archaic by Hesiodos
and evolution of dialects to more common forms,
at 4rth century Attic (part of Ionian) is the most common
but the expand of Makedonians enter and change that common to Koine (common language, above all dialects)
Koine is a mix but mostly Attic, Ionian and Makedonian,
Koine is the language of times called Hellenistic,
then come the Romans but language is still koine although evolutes according the area of writer, (Alexandrine, Pergamos etc) influence of latin etc etc
Koine 2 is the later language an evolution of koine to the East Roman Empire status,
After Flavian Dynasty start new dynasties, and we see decrease of Latin and increase of Greek of that time,
Roman influenced a lot, and we see new elements, after 8-9th century we see also some Slavic elements,
After 1204 and the first fall of Con/polis to latin rulers, we see new centers of Greek language, which input their own sounds, elements, vocabulary, these are called modern Greek idioms,
except the Pontic Greek of Trapezous which stayed and kept forms in speech that are so ancient which even modern scientists wonder how and what,

after the 1821 independence scholars provide an artificial language to unite all these idioms and turn language back to Attic and Koine 1.
it lasted a century and more, but cdollapse due its difficulties, yet Attic and koine was more easy understable than the artifcial ones,
so from 1925 they used δημωδη and idioms,
modern Greek is based upon the Thracian idiom, (Greek from area North of Con/polis to Black sea) the most simple of all,
reject the dative case etc etc
yet this is not a solution cause creates linguistic problems, but is something.

I'm sorry i would't call the Pelasgian one of the ancient greek dialect.According to different sources they didn't speak helenic language.

Homer mentions especially the language of two Pelasgian peoples. The inhabitants of Caria in Asia Minor, he tells us, spoke a barbarian language (barbarophonoi, Iliad. II. 867), and the Pelasgians of Lemnos had a wild, rustic language (agriophonoi, Odyss. ViII. 294), meaning also barbarian.

We find other historical notes about the ancient language the Pelasgians with Herodotus. “Which language had the Pelasgians used”, writes he (lib. I. 57, 58), “I certainly cannot affirm; but if we were permitted to draw a conclusion about the Pelasgians who still exist today in the city Crestonia above the Tursenii (in the eastern part of Macedonia, near the sea), and who once dwelt in the region today called Thessaliotis … also, if we had in mind the language of the Pelasgians who had founded the cities Placia and Scylax of Hellespont, and who had previously dwelt together with the Athenians, then we could affirm that the Pelasgians had used a barbarian language …In regard of the nation of the Hellenes though, these had always used, ever since their beginning, the same language, but different from that of the Pelasgian nation …The Pelasgians themselves were a people of barbarian nationality”.

It is to be noted that, according to Herodotus, the Pelasgians were not part of the same ethnic family of the Greeks, and he considered the language of the Pelasgians entirely different from that of the Greeks (lib. I. c. 58).

The same writes Plato: the Greeks are all from the same family and related among themselves, but they are foreigners relative to the barbarians, not being of the same people, genos othneion chai allotrion (Civitas. Lib. V. p. 97).

Here is a chronology of information taken from basic sources on the internet just to begin with.

2700BC to 1450 BC - Minoan
The Minoan civilization arose in Crete, the language was written in Linear A. Both the language and alphabet remain un-deciphered.

1600 BC to 1100 BC – Mycenaean
Mycenaean culture became dominant as Minoan was dying out. The Mycenaean alphabet was an adaptation from Linear A, known today as Linear B. It was written in a language that appears to be a form of archaic European, and claimed as an early form of Greek.

1200 BC – Dark Ages
The end of the Mycenaean civilization and language takes place, along with the Linear B alphabet.

1000 BC – The appearance of the Dorians
There is no cultural trait surviving in the material record for the two centuries or so after 1200 BC, that can be regarded as uniquely Dorian. It was not until the start of the Geometric period at about 950 BC that such evidence appears, therefore the origins of the Dorians is controversial. This period is also referred to as the time of origin for the Ionic dialect.

800 BC - Advent of Hellenes
The first signs of Greek-speaking city-states appear, together with a variant of the Phoenician alphabet, originally used to write Semitic languages.

Some important observations can be made from the above information. For example:

1) If the Mycenaeans were not considered Greek-speakers until Ventris and his Linear B decipherment, it brings into question the origins of the heroes in Homer's epic. Furthermore, words from Linear B appear to also correspond to European equivalents.

2) Dorian origins are disputed, but it appears that they are in fact the original 'Greek' speakers. The question is, where did they come from?

3) The solid origin for the Greek language as it is known today is evidenced from the time of their adoption of Phoenician letters.

The above may or may not be correct, I would like to hear the opinions of others interested in the topic.

Can any of our Greek members inform me of the Greek etymological meaning of the following words and placenames in modern Greece:

Thessaly
Larissa
Parnassos
Molossus
Perinthus
Corinth
Attica
Dodona
Athena
Hellen

??

Linguistic features not native to Hellenic are:

- The ss cluster of the same letter
- The tt cluster of the same letter
- The nth feature

Below are some previously cited words and placenames in the Hellenic tongue which are of non-Hellenic origin.

- Knossos, Parnassos, Thessaly, Larissa, Molossus
- Corinth, Perinth
- Attica

I have noticed that even the names of two literary figures from antiquity that feature prominently among the earliest writers in the Hellenic tongue, Homer and Herodotus, appear to have names that are originally of Semitic origin, Omer and Herod, respectively. Is there a case to argue for a Hellenic etymology?

Do the words Dodona and Hellen have an etymology in Hellenic? Perhaps the odd Greek that enters this forum for no other reason than spamming can try and be productive for once by assisting with these questions.

Gorgonzola said:

I'm sorry i would't call the Pelasgian one of the ancient greek dialect.According to different sources they didn't speak helenic language.

Homer mentions especially the language of two Pelasgian peoples. The inhabitants of Caria in Asia Minor, he tells us, spoke a barbarian language (barbarophonoi, Iliad. II. 867), and the Pelasgians of Lemnos had a wild, rustic language (agriophonoi, Odyss. ViII. 294), meaning also barbarian.

We find other historical notes about the ancient language the Pelasgians with Herodotus. “Which language had the Pelasgians used”, writes he (lib. I. 57, 58), “I certainly cannot affirm; but if we were permitted to draw a conclusion about the Pelasgians who still exist today in the city Crestonia above the Tursenii (in the eastern part of Macedonia, near the sea), and who once dwelt in the region today called Thessaliotis … also, if we had in mind the language of the Pelasgians who had founded the cities Placia and Scylax of Hellespont, and who had previously dwelt together with the Athenians, then we could affirm that the Pelasgians had used a barbarian language …In regard of the nation of the Hellenes though, these had always used, ever since their beginning, the same language, but different from that of the Pelasgian nation …The Pelasgians themselves were a people of barbarian nationality”.

It is to be noted that, according to Herodotus, the Pelasgians were not part of the same ethnic family of the Greeks, and he considered the language of the Pelasgians entirely different from that of the Greeks (lib. I. c. 58).

The same writes Plato: the Greeks are all from the same family and related among themselves, but they are foreigners relative to the barbarians, not being of the same people, genos othneion chai allotrion (Civitas. Lib. V. p. 97).

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Pelasgians did not Spoke IE,
but the mix of IE and pelasgians create Greek,
So Herodotus names pelasgians the Aeolians and Iones
and Hellenes the Dorians

'Ουτοι εστιν εθνος πελασγικον'
say for Aiolians and Iones,
while for Dorian say Ηellenic.

the Pelasgians and IE create create the Greeks.

Herodotos makes clear that

Thoukidides say clear that Athens (Attica) spoke Thyrrenian before IE Greek,
that is certified by lemnean stele,
Phokaeis might be pelasgian also,
The problem of pelasgian is that can be combined with Hattians, or eteoCretans (minoans), or with Arzawa (Arcadia) and we speak about a minor Asian population, who might also was in balkans, before myceneans, but their central seems to be minor Asia shores as ancient describe it
the Arzawa case is still unknown, if IE Anatolian or if not,
Pelasgians show connectivity with Thyrrenians and Cyprus and Phoenicia and Lydia and lycaonia Caria
the Varna necropolis culture also has connectivity with them,
there is possibility that vinca varna dimini were all pelasgians,
or they were Summerians, and pelasgians came after them,


ok to end,

from the vocabulary we find in ancient Greek, Latin, away from other IE, and comparing with other languages, we find Summerian, hattian and towards Akkadian, but the last could be due to kadmeians.
now if Pelasgian spoke IE then we are sure about an IE anatolian, most possible Arzawa,
If pelasgian did spoke IE, then Pelasgians were unified with IE creating Greeks,
we consider clear greek after the hesiodos time.

an alternative possibility is given with termination καυκωνες και πελασγοι,
another story.

ok If I did make my shelf understood, sorry,
but the most reliable possibility is shown in the story of Athens,

BTW
there is an argue about Semitic languages,
many consider it Caucasian language, that went south and return,
it is strange,
no time to explain,

but Herodotos also names Ionians clearly as εθνος πελασγικον,

Generally Greeks are considered the mix of IE and Pelasgians, both in Linguistic and genetic,
personally I can not certify who found who, both are open,
the pelasgian who did not mix went West to N Italy,
at least that show until today archaiology.

King Bardhyl said:

Linguistic features not native to Hellenic are:

- The ss cluster of the same letter
- The tt cluster of the same letter
- The nth feature

Below are some previously cited words and placenames in the Hellenic tongue which are of non-Hellenic origin.

- Knossos, Parnassos, Thessaly, Larissa, Molossus
- Corinth, Perinth
- Attica

I have noticed that even the names of two literary figures from antiquity that feature prominently among the earliest writers in the Hellenic tongue, Homer and Herodotus, appear to have names that are originally of Semitic origin, Omer and Herod, respectively. Is there a case to argue for a Hellenic etymology?

Do the words Dodona and Hellen have an etymology in Hellenic? Perhaps the odd Greek that enters this forum for no other reason than spamming can try and be productive for once by assisting with these questions.

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Homer and Hrodotos and Herakles etc have nothing to do with Semitic names you mention,
they are IE, and have IE meaning,
The Pelasgian is a strange case wich have Akkadian but different aspiration,
for example Arabia = Europa = Erebos
Γαληνη = Salem =Salom etc



Thessaly Knossos Molosoi Larissa are Hellenick words with the pelasgian vocabulary,
they can be explained by Greek
Attica Parnassos are clear Hattian possibly Pelasgian, and can be explained also


btw what is perinth?

King Bardhyl said:

Can any of our Greek members inform me of the Greek etymological meaning of the following words and placenames in modern Greece:

Thessaly
Larissa
Parnassos
Molossus
Perinthus
Corinth
Attica
Dodona
Athena
Hellen

??

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I insist in this.
Also about Homer and Herodotus?

I have read that the Greek word for 'speak' which is Milise comes from a Semitic Hebrew word meaning 'word' or 'language'. Can anybody confirm this?
There are Semetic words from both pre and post biblical era.

For more on the Semetic element in the Greek language, check page 25 and 26 of the following:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...lt#v=onepage&q=semetic words in greek&f=false

More on the Semetic influence in the Greek language, reflected in the large pool of non Indo-European words that are present.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...result&ct=result&resnum=5#v=onepage&q&f=false

There are several Latin words in Greek also, that appear 'Greek' to the untrained eye. For example, somebody would see the word 'Spiti' (home) and assume that because it kind of 'looks' Greek it must be so, let alone the fact that it is a bastardised word that stems from the Latin 'Hospitium', from where the English word 'Hospitality' also comes.

There are several Slavic, Turkish and Albanian words, more of which can be found in the dialects rather than the purged literary language.

It would be good if we can disect the language properly and see what is what, although finding Greeks willing to assist in this task will be difficult.

P.S.
Explain me pls the name Katsidiaris , here we are at the right topic for this.

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I guess distinguishing the origins of words in the Greek language would expose the 'Greek purity' myth, on the other hand, it will contribute to our knowledge of the origin of ancient Greeks. A worthy project no doubt, I will keep posting up examples until we can compile something larger.

@yetos We don't know yet if pelasgian was IE or wasn't IE.
All we know is when the ancient helens came in the balkans they met the pelasgians who were there before the greeks, and they were brabaric people, different ethnicity.