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Angela
03-06-14, 20:39
The paper is behind a pay wall, and annoyingly even the tables aren't open access. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497314001161

The Altai Mountains have been a long term boundary zone between the Eurasian Steppe populations and South and East Asian populations. To disentangle some of the historical population movements in this area, 14 ancient human specimens excavated in the westernmost part of the Mongolian Altai were studied. Thirteen of them were dated from the Middle to the End of the Bronze Age and one of them to the Eneolithic period. The environmental conditions encountered in this region led to the good preservation of DNA in the human remains. Therefore, a multi-markers approach was adopted for the genetic analysis of identity, ancestry and phenotype markers. Mitochondrial DNA analyses revealed that the ancient Altaians studied carried both Western (H, U, T) and Eastern (A, C, D) Eurasian lineages. In the same way, the patrilineal gene pool revealed the presence of different haplogroups (Q1a2a1-L54, R1a1a1b2-Z93 and C), probably marking different origins for the male paternal lineages. To go further in the search of the origin of these ancient specimens, phenotypical characters (ie: hair and eye colour) were determined. For this purpose, we adapted the HIrisPlex assay recently described to MALDI-TOF mass spectrometry. In addition, some ancestry informative markers were analyzed with this assay. The results revealed mixed phenotypes among this group confirming the probable admixed ancestry of the studied Altaian population at the Middle Bronze Age. The good results obtained from ancient DNA samples suggest that this approach might be relevant for forensic casework too.

The dating is about 1300 BC to 900 BC.

Angela
03-06-14, 22:01
The detailed results have been posted by Jean Manco on her ancient DNA site.

11 remains from the Bronze Age-8 male, 2 female, 1 undetermined

YDNA:
R1a1a1b2-Z93-(4)
Q1a2a1-L54-(3)
C-M130-(1)

MtDNA:
H/U
H1b
H7e*
T1a
U4

A
D(2)
D2
D5a2
C4a1

1 sample is Eneolithic or Copper Age, 2700 B.C., and is yDNA Q-M242 and mtDNA R1b1*

Pigmentation: All had black or brown hair. All but one had brown eyes. The Z93/D2 man had blue eyes.

Source of data: Jean Manco's Ancestral Journey's website:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

Nobody1
03-06-14, 22:08
Given all the previous studies about the eastern Steppes and beyond these results are to be expected especially given the location and time (Bronze-age 1300-900BC); Not all that surprising; The Pigmentation SNPs (8plex/Hirisplex) however would be interesting;

previous - 2010
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15
previous - 2010
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21242/abstract?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+b e+disrupted+Saturday%2C+7+June+from+10%3A00-15%3A00+BST+%2805%3A00-10%3A00+EDT%29+for+essential+maintenance

Angela
03-06-14, 22:27
What I think is different is that so far the yDNA was all R1a1a, so far as I know, and we didn't have any subclades. Now we know that the Q lineages also had a big presence, and we know that the R1a is the Z93 version, which ties in with the Underhill paper's results.

I also think the paucity of mtDNA U4 and U5 is interesting.

Now we need the "Y" results from Andronovo.

Yes, I hope someone posts the pigmentation snps.

Fire Haired14
03-06-14, 22:39
What I think is different is that so far the yDNA was all R1a1a, so far as I know, and we didn't have any subclades. Now we know that the Q lineages also had a big presence, and we know that the R1a is the Z93 version, which ties in with the Underhill paper's results.

I also think the paucity of mtDNA U4 and U5 is interesting.

Now we need the "Y" results from Andronovo.

Yes, I hope someone posts the pigmentation snps.

This confirms that R1a Z93 and the ancestral form of the Indo Iranian language came from eastern Europe. There is no doubt related people to the Andronovo culture, Sycthians, Tarim mummies, etc. are the source of the western ancestry of these samples.

Nobody1
03-06-14, 22:57
What I think is different is that so far the yDNA was all R1a1a, so far as I know, and we didn't have any subclades. Now we know that the Q lineages also had a big presence, and we know that the R1a is the Z93 version, which ties in with the Underhill paper's results.

I also think the paucity of mtDNA U4 and U5 is interesting.

Now we need the "Y" results from Andronovo.

Yes, I hope someone posts the pigmentation snps.

Exactly;
Based on the Underhill study a few months ago it was already certain that Z93 was the Indo-European branch of the east (from the steppes); Hence that thread and discussion and thats why i said the corpses will always do the talking and that is pretty clear now; Next the Eulau (Corded-ware) R1a corpses should do the talking; The mtDNA results also just further confirm the already archaeologically known rule that the Female pop. was always largely pre-existing and not dragged into it;

ebAmerican
03-06-14, 23:56
Is this correct Angela - mtDNA R1b1*. I couldn't find reference on a mtDNA R1b1. I found a reference for mtDNA R1a1.

Goga
04-06-14, 00:37
This confirms that R1a Z93 and the ancestral form of the Indo Iranian language came from eastern Europe. There is no doubt related people to the Andronovo culture, Sycthians, Tarim mummies, etc. are the source of the western ancestry of these samples.
This means that Z93 is NOT from Central Asia. And Z93 can't be from Eastern Europe either, because Eastern Europe has different VERY recent types of R1a and NOT ancestral to Z93 at all ! Also in Eastern Europe there are different Y-DNA haplogroups, like Mongoloid N1c1 and Europoid I2a. There's almost no I2a in Central Asia!!! Original R1a* is from West Asia, ancestral to European R1a and Central Asian R1a. Z93 in Central Asia is from the Iranian Plateau, maybe even from the Zagros Mountains. There was a migration from West Asia into Central Asia.
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2014/05/near-eastern-roots-of-south-asian.html

Goga
04-06-14, 00:45
According to this study there was NO expansions from the Eastern Europe into Central Asia!!! http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288 "R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."

Goga
04-06-14, 01:05
This proofs that Z93 in Iranian Plateau and Kurdistan is NOT from Central Asia BUT vice versa. Z93 in Central Asia is from the Iranian Plateau! Airyana Vaeja, the original homeland of (proto-)Iranic speaking Aryans was very mountanious, without sea. Since it's not in Central Asia, it must be in Kurdistan Zagros Mountains or Alborz Mountains in Northern Iran! http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2011/05/solution-to-problem-of-indo-aryan.html

Angela
04-06-14, 02:03
Is this correct Angela - mtDNA R1b1*. I couldn't find reference on a mtDNA R1b1. I found a reference for mtDNA R1a1.

I apologize, eb. I thought I had provided the link to Jean Manco's site, but I didn't. I've corrected the post above, but here is the site again.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml








This is what she has listed for the one Copper Age sample from this site:



Mongolia
Takhilgat Uzuur-5 [TU31]
Black/dark brown hair; brown eyes
M
2742 BC
Q-M242

R1b1*
16037G, 16311C, 16319A
Hollard 2014
(http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hollard2014)



I can't check the paper for myself because it's behind a paywall.

Aberdeen
04-06-14, 02:47
Is this correct Angela - mtDNA R1b1*. I couldn't find reference on a mtDNA R1b1. I found a reference for mtDNA R1a1.

I also wondered about that. I don't know a lot about DNA, but the tree of mtDNA R I looked at doesn't seem to have an R1b branch.

However, it's good to see some Bronze Age data from Altai. Now if we could just get some for the steppes.

Goga
04-06-14, 03:05
I've an access to this paper (any paper), since my computer is linked to a university. And under the Mt HV1 haplotype (- 16000) of this (TU31) individual is written: 037G , 311C , 319A . He belongs to Y-DNA Q-M242 and mtDNA R1b1* . MtDNA R* is very old and ancestral to mtDNA pre-HV, JT and U.

About TU31 it says: "Two samples (TA12 and TU31) could not be assigned to particular haplogroups due to the selected SNPs included in the multiplex reaction. Nevertheless the search for theses haplotypes in our database showed that haplotype 16037G, 16311C and 16319A (TU31) was found in one Finnish individual. This individual belongs to the R* super-haplogroup but could not be affiliated to one specific haplogroup based on HV1 and HV2 sequences [20]."

http://s1.postimg.org/mavtrraxb/mtdna.jpg

oriental
04-06-14, 03:42
The R1b comes from the Uyghurs who came later into the Tarim Basin after the Ria folks were driven out during the Tang Dynasty when they tried to take over China. There are R1b folks in Khazakhstan.

http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/tangshu/tangshu.html

Goga
04-06-14, 03:47
The R1b comes from the Uyghurs who came later into the Tarim Basin after the Ria folks were driven out during the Tang Dynasty when they tried to take over China. There are R1b folks in Khazakhstan.You're talking about 'Y-DNA' my friend.
But TU31 belongs to R1b1* 'mtDNA'. So the discussion is about 'mtDNA' of TU31 fella.

Aberdeen
04-06-14, 03:47
The R1b comes from the Uyghurs who came later into the Tarim Basin after the Ria folks were driven out during the Tang Dynasty when they tried to take over China. There are R1b folks in Khazakhstan.

No, the data didn't say that person had Y haplotype R1b. It said he had Y haplotype Q and mtDNA R1b1*, and I didn't think there was such a thing as mtDNA R1b.

oriental
04-06-14, 03:52
The Sogdians and the Uyghurs are different people. The Ones discussed are the Sogdians R1a folks. Uyghurs have R1b in their admixture but they came in later in the 12th century not the Bronze Age. The Bronze age are the Sogdians.

Goga
04-06-14, 04:05
The Sogdians and the Uyghurs are different people. The Ones discussed are the Sogdians R1a folks. Uyghurs have R1b in their admixture but they came in later in the 12th century not the Bronze Age. The Bronze age are the Sogdians.The individual we're talking about is 4,750 years old. He lived before the East Iranic Sogdians.
http://s28.postimg.org/bz68cukdp/image.jpg
http://s28.postimg.org/vfqxzdfhp/image.jpg

ebAmerican
04-06-14, 16:54
I apologize, eb. I thought I had provided the link to Jean Manco's site, but I didn't. I've corrected the post above, but here is the site again.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml








This is what she has listed for the one Copper Age sample from this site:



Mongolia
Takhilgat Uzuur-5 [TU31]
Black/dark brown hair; brown eyes
M
2742 BC
Q-M242

R1b1*
16037G, 16311C, 16319A
Hollard 2014
(http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hollard2014)



I can't check the paper for myself because it's behind a paywall.

Thanks for clarifying. I was mixing up another thread that was talking about the archaeological work of Kovalev in western Mongolia and the Chemurchek culture. kosmonomad had brought up that Kovalev was going to release yDNA of a bronze age man. "Two out of three afanasievans and one okunevan were R1b1 (M269), one afanasievan - R1b1. Kovalev has radiocarbon ages of many afanasievans: calibrated 3000-2600 b.c." I thought maybe the Hollard paper was about the same findings. If yDNA R1b was found in the Afanasievo culture and the burial practices of the Chemurchek culture are from southern France it is an interesting twist. kosmonomad may have misinterpreted the results and was really talking about mtDNA R1b1*.

Maciamo
04-06-14, 18:27
The detailed results have been posted by Jean Manco on her ancient DNA site.

11 remains from the Bronze Age-8 male, 2 female, 1 undetermined

YDNA:
R1a1a1b2-Z93-(4)
Q1a2a1-L54-(3)
C-M130-(1)

MtDNA:
H/U
H1b
H7e*
T1a
U4

A
D(2)
D2
D5a2
C4a1

1 sample is Eneolithic or Copper Age, 2700 B.C., and is yDNA Q-M242 and mtDNA R1b1*

Pigmentation: All had black or brown hair. All but one had brown eyes. The Z93/D2 man had blue eyes.

Thanks for sharing.

No major surprise here. The samples date from the Late Bronze Age (c. 1350 BCE), which was an active period for the expansion of R1a-Z93 in Asia.

The European mtDNA haplogroups all match those that I have associated (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#mtDNA) with the diffusion of R1a during the Bronze Age. C4a1 is interesting since we already had C4a2, C4a3 from Neolithic Ukraine and C4a6 from Bronze Age Ukraine. This would tend to confirm my theory that C4a was one of the original lineages brought from Siberia to eastern Europe by R1a tribes.

Goga
04-06-14, 19:04
the most interesting thing of this paper is that almost everybody from the Bronze Age had brown eyes and dark hair. Only 1 fella is tested with blue eyes. So assumption that all Indo-European R1a tribes in Central Asia were blue eyed blonde people is nonsense and can be put in the garbage. Most likely the so called 'Aryans' (Iranic people) that migrated into Northern-India looked like modern-day Kurds and NorthWestern Iranians. I mean Caucasus-Gedrosia kind of people! People of different colors and shapes, some of them were light, some of them were dark, like we see in Kurdistan and Persia.

Aberdeen
04-06-14, 19:38
the most interesting thing of this paper is that almost everybody from the Bronze Age had brown eyes and dark hair. Only 1 fella is tested with blue eyes. So assumption that all Indo-European R1a tribes in Central Asia were blue eyed blonde people is nonsense and can be put in the garbage. Most likely the so called 'Aryans' (Iranic people) that migrated into Northern-India looked like modern-day Kurds and NorthWestern Iranians. I mean Caucasus-Gedrosia kind of people! People of different colors and shapes, some of them were light, some of them were dark, like we see in Kurdistan and Persia.

IMO, if a group of blond haired blue eyed people intermarried with a group of dark haired dark eyed people, I would expect only a small percentage of their offspring to have blue eyes, since it's a recessive trait. However, R1a doesn't need to be exclusively blond haired and blue eyed in order to have been spread to the Altaic region or to what is now Iran during a Bronze Age expansion from the steppes.

If you want to argue definitively that R1a already was (or wasn't) in the area that is now Iran at the time of the Bronze Age expansion, you need a number of samples of Bronze Age DNA from the area that is now Iran, and we don't have that yet. However, these samples seem to me to indicate that there was a degree of fairly recent mixing of R1a with more "Asian" lineages during the Bronze Age, which I would say does support the idea of R1a being central to the Bronze Age expansion.

Goga
04-06-14, 20:15
IMO, if a group of blond haired blue eyed people intermarried with a group of dark haired dark eyed people, I would expect only a small percentage of their offspring to have blue eyes, since it's a recessive trait. However, R1a doesn't need to be exclusively blond haired and blue eyed in order to have been spread to the Altaic region or to what is now Iran during a Bronze Age expansion from the steppes.

If you want to argue definitely that R1a already was (or wasn't) in the area that is now Iran at the time of the Bronze Age expansion, you need a number of samples of Bronze Age DNA from the area that is now Iran, and we don't have that yet. However, these samples seem to me to indicate that there was a degree of fairly recent mixing of R1a with more "Asian" lineages during the Bronze Age, which I would say does support the idea of R1a being central to the Bronze Age expansion.
The thing is that the so called ‘Aryans’ that invaded India, lived for a long time in Central Asia before they invaded India. So Aryans who Invaded India have to be 'Central Asian' people, they were already partly 'Central Asian' who mixed with the natives of Central Asia at that time. And now we know that those Central Asian people were mostly brown eyes, dark hair!

And IMO that's impossible. Why? Because ancient R* they found in Central Asia was also dark too. That's why I do believe that its descendant R1* was dark too.

Also R1a in Iran can't be from the Steppes, because some subclades of R1a in NorthWest Persia and Kurdistan are MUCH older than subclaces in the Steppes (Black Sea/Kazakhstan).

The ancient Medes & Persians called themselves 'Aryans'. The Medes & Persians looked exactly like modern day Iranic people in Kurdistan and NorthWest Persia.

Also at the time of the Bronze age it has been proven that there was a migration from Western Asia into the Steppes and NOT vice versa. Maykop, Layla Tepe etc. folks invaded and influenced Yamna Horizon.

Nobody1
04-06-14, 20:40
So assumption that all Indo-European R1a tribes in Central Asia were blue eyed blonde people is nonsense and can be put in the garbage. Most likely the so called 'Aryans' (Iranic people) that migrated into Northern-India looked like modern-day Kurds and NorthWestern Iranians. I mean Caucasus-Gedrosia kind of people! People of different colors and shapes, some of them were light, some of them were dark, like we see in Kurdistan and Persia.

Doubtful;
These Bronze-age (1300-900BC) Altai corpses are not the folks that earlier expanded into the Indus-valley; The Indo-Aryans that expanded (Shortughai) into the Indus-valley were from the Andronovo[Fedorovo] complexes; So you would have to judge based on such corpses and not based on intermixed Altai corpses;

Goga
04-06-14, 20:56
Doubtful;
These Bronze-age (1300-900BC) Altai corpses are not the folks that earlier expanded into the Indus-valley; The Indo-Aryans that expanded (Shortughai) into the Indus-valley were from the Andronovo[Fedorovo] complexes; So you would have to judge based on such corpses and not based on intermixed Altai corpses;Wrong! People of Andronovo (Fedorovo) were also for a huge part Tungusic/Mongoloid peoples. And it is still uncertain if Andronovo (Fedorovo) were Indo-Iranian speakers. Original Indo-Iranian people of Central Asia that invaded India migrated firstly into BMAC (Oxus civilization) from Kurdistan/NorthWestern Persia before they migrated into Northern India. So called 'Aryans' who invaded India came from BMAC and NOT from Fedorovo complex at all.

kamani
04-06-14, 21:04
However, these samples seem to me to indicate that there was a degree of fairly recent mixing of R1a with more "Asian" lineages during the Bronze Age, which I would say does support the idea of R1a being central to the Bronze Age expansion.
I have come to a similar conclusion. Which leaves open the question how did R1b get to Europe if it wasn't the IE Bronze Age migrations? Maybe something that has to do with Basques and Caucasian languages...

Aberdeen
04-06-14, 23:53
I have come to a similar conclusion. Which leaves open the question how did R1b get to Europe if it wasn't the IE Bronze Age migrations? Maybe something that has to do with Basques and Caucasian languages...

That's a question that will lead to arguments on this forum. Some of us think that R1b may have been introduced to Europe by the Beaker Bell folk, who some of us think entered via the Mediterranean and others think came by way of the Balkans. However, in terms of this forum, we're heretics. The majority opinion here is that R1b formed the western part of the original IE population and entered Europe as part of the Bronze Age expansion, perhaps along with R1a folk.

If you look through some old threads, you can find lots of discussions about this topic. And if you look at the Genetics section of this website, Maciamo has done an excellent job of summarizing the arguments re R1b as being part of the IE folk.

Fire Haired14
04-06-14, 23:57
This means that Z93 is NOT from Central Asia. And Z93 can't be from Eastern Europe either, because Eastern Europe has different VERY recent types of R1a and NOT ancestral to Z93 at all ! Also in Eastern Europe there are different Y-DNA haplogroups, like Mongoloid N1c1 and Europoid I2a. There's almost no I2a in Central Asia!!! Original R1a* is from West Asia, ancestral to European R1a and Central Asian R1a. Z93 in Central Asia is from the Iranian Plateau, maybe even from the Zagros Mountains. There was a migration from West Asia into Central Asia.
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2014/05/near-eastern-roots-of-south-asian.html

This is not a white raciest idea, and no one is attacking west Asians. Proto-Indo Iranian language and R1a Z93 originated in eastern Europe, archaeology, ancient Indo Iranian's DNA, and other evidence is the prove. Don't take this to seriously, it was just one of many events that occurred during the bronze age.

Sure R1a itself or its subclade M17 may have originated in west Asia, but that doesn't mean Z93 is not from a European back migration.

Fire Haired14
05-06-14, 00:14
Thanks for sharing.

No major surprise here. The samples date from the Late Bronze Age (c. 1350 BCE), which was an active period for the expansion of R1a-Z93 in Asia.

The European mtDNA haplogroups all match those that I have associated (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#mtDNA) with the diffusion of R1a during the Bronze Age. C4a1 is interesting since we already had C4a2, C4a3 from Neolithic Ukraine and C4a6 from Bronze Age Ukraine. This would tend to confirm my theory that C4a was one of the original lineages brought from Siberia to eastern Europe by R1a tribes.

So do you think R1a originated in Siberia? I tend to think R1 originated somewhere in west Asia.

dodona
05-06-14, 08:01
Wrong! People of Andronovo (Fedorovo) were also for a huge part Tungusic/Mongoloid peoples.
I never heard that. As far as I know only one sample of Fedorovo / Krasnojarsk had tested y-chromosome C what later became rejected a misinterpreted data.

polako
05-06-14, 08:26
According to this study there was NO expansions from the Eastern Europe into Central Asia!!! http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288 "R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."

You obviously don't realise this, but you come across as psychotic. Have you ever considered some sort of professional therapy?

Now, in regards to this and other recent studies, what we're obviously seeing here is a migration from Eastern Europe deep into Asia, which resulted in a mixed European/Siberian population in the Mongolian Altai and elsewhere. It's likely that this mixed population then pushed on into West Asia (including Kurdistan) and South Asia.

Note that in this study we have an mtDNA H1b haplotype with five hits in present-day Poland and one in Portugal. Also, there's one mtDNA U4, which is a haplogroup typical of Mesolithic Eastern and Central Europeans. The fact that one of the R1a-Z93 samples was probably blue eyed is very interesting indeed, considering the aforementioned mixed nature of this population.

Moreover, R1a-Z93 is closely related to the European-specific R1a-Z282, since they both share the Z645 mutation which is only around 4,500 years old. But basal R1a-Z93 lineages do exist in Europe, and these are difficult to cluster and unlikely to be the result of any sort of recent migrations from Asia to Europe.

http://imageshack.com/a/img836/5088/8qxx.jpg

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

Engel
05-06-14, 08:36
The ancient Medes & Persians called themselves 'Aryans'. The Medes & Persians looked exactly like modern day Iranic people in Kurdistan and NorthWest Persia.
I do not see any Aryan in present day kurds and Iranians. They are arabs

Goga
05-06-14, 11:12
This is not a white raciest idea, and no one is attacking west Asians. Proto-Indo Iranian language and R1a Z93 originated in eastern Europe, archaeology, ancient Indo Iranian's DNA, and other evidence is the prove. Don't take this to seriously, it was just one of many events that occurred during the bronze age.

Sure R1a itself or its subclade M17 may have originated in west Asia, but that doesn't mean Z93 is not from a European back migration.What archaeology? Real archaeology of proto-Indo-Iranians is located in BMAC. I hope you do realise that!

Goga
05-06-14, 11:20
You obviously don't realise this, but you come across as psychotic. Have you ever considered some sort of professional therapy?

Now, in regards to this and other recent studies, what we're obviously seeing here is a migration from Eastern Europe deep into Asia, which resulted in a mixed European/Siberian population in the Mongolian Altai and elsewhere. It's likely that this mixed population then pushed on into West Asia (including Kurdistan) and South Asia.

Note that in this study we have an mtDNA H1b haplotype with five hits in present-day Poland and one in Portugal. Also, there's one mtDNA U4, which is a haplogroup typical of Mesolithic Eastern and Central Europeans. The fact that one of the R1a-Z93 samples was probably blue eyed is very interesting indeed, considering the aforementioned mixed nature of this population.

Moreover, R1a-Z93 is closely related to the European-specific R1a-Z282, since they both share the Z645 mutation which is only around 4,500 years old. But basal R1a-Z93 lineages do exist in Europe, and these are difficult to cluster and unlikely to be the result of any sort of recent migrations from Asia to Europe.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results You don’t only sound psychotic, but also very ignorant and in denial! There came out recently 2 academic papers that are indicating that there was no migration of R1a from Western Steppes to Eastern steppes. And that R1a in Europe is from West Asia. And it's a bottlenecked. Why are you ignoring these papers? I know that these papers are a blow to your wannabe neo-Nazi Slavic face, but it's time to move on, come back to a reality and overcome your inferiority complex.

here are these 2 papers : here http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288 and here http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201450a.html

Goga
05-06-14, 11:21
I do not see any Aryan in present day kurds and Iranians. They are arabsNo, you're an Arab...

polako
05-06-14, 11:41
You don’t only sound psychotic, but also very ignorant and in denial! There came out recently 2 academic papers that are indicating that there was no migration of R1a from Western Steppes to Eastern steppes. And that R1a in Europe is from West Asia. And it's a bottlenecked. Why are you ignoring these papers? I know that these papers are a blow to your wannabe neo-Nazi Slavic face, but it's time to move on, come back to a reality and overcome your inferiority complex.

here are these 2 papers : here http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288 and here http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201450a.html

The first paper ignores the fact that M417 can be broken up into multiple subclades and that STR variance doesn't say anything useful about the geographic origins of haplogroups. In fact, it holds on to the ridiculous view of the time that M417 came from the Indus Valley.

The second paper ignores a lot of things, including the existence of L664 in Northwestern Europe. But it's important to note that nowhere do the authors claim that M417 and all downstream markers, like Z282 and Z93, expanded from West Asia during the early Indo-European timeframe. All they say is that R1a might have originated in West Asia 25,000 years ago.

So even if true, what does that have to do with the origins of the Indo-Europeans? And how do these results trump ancient DNA evidence of an European population with a high frequency of R1a living in South Siberia and the Altai during the early Indo-European timeframe? Or are you actually arguing with a straight face that these people with European H1b and U4, and some even with blue eyes and light hair, came from the Indus Valley or Kurdistan?

See, you're obviously psychotic, because no one who's bothered to understand these points can hold on to the view that you hold on to so desperately here. Please seek some help, for your own sake.

Alan
05-06-14, 11:50
Guys chill a bit, at the end of the day none of you will be able to determine the exact place of R1a origin.

Goga
05-06-14, 12:01
The second paper ignores a lot of things, including the existence of L664 in Northwestern Europe. But it's important to note that nowhere do the authors claim that M417 and all downstream markers, like Z282 and Z93, expanded from West Asia during the early Indo-European timeframe. All they say is that R1a might have originated in West Asia 25,000 years ago.

So even if true, what does that have to do with the origins of the Indo-Europeans? And how do these results trump ancient DNA evidence of an European population with a high frequency of R1a living in South Siberia and the Altai during the early Indo-European timeframe? Or are you actually arguing with a straight face that these people with European H1b and U4, and some even with blue eyes and light hair, came from the Indus Valley or Kurdistan?

See, you're obviously psychotic, because no one who's bothered to understand these points can hold on to the view that you hold on to so desperately here. Please seek some help, for your own sake.First of all Z282 and Z93 are related to each other, but they’re NOT the same. Z93 had already very different mutations comparedto Z283 and Z282. Z93 already evolved very differently. eppes. Nobody is denying that Z282 evolved in the Western Steppes? But where is the proogf that also Z93 evovled in the Western Steppes. There's no proof for that. Z93 is NOT from Eastern Europe. There's no chronology (chronological relationship) between Z282 and Z83. They have the same roots, and I’m sure roots in West Asia. You're so ANTI-science, anti-intellectualism denying scientific papers. There is no academic proof for you wild fantasies, AT ALL.

People in South Siberia and the Altai during the early Indo-European already were mixed Europoid/Mongoloid people, like people in Eastern Europe were also mixed with Europoid (Y-DNA hg. I2* and I1*) and Mongoloid people. There's lots of N1c1 Y-DNA in Eastern Eruope. So called 'Aryans' that invaded India from BMAC were mixed people between Kurdistan/Northwest Iran and South Cental Asia. They were Caucaso-Gedrosian people! You like it or not.

Goga
05-06-14, 12:06
See, you're obviously psychoticYou’re not really a very [email protected]$$ fella aren't you? What's your education? You can't proof me wrong, so you're insulting me, first sign of an inferiority complex! You come out of nowhere and insult me, WTF???
And now go and do something useful for your glorious Slavic (wannabe Aryan) race.

Alan
05-06-14, 12:19
And now go and do something useful for your glorious Slavic (wannabe Aryan) race.

If he insults you, either report it or insult back to him, but don't mix an entire ethnicity, let alone ethno-linguistic group, into your war. (What the heck have Croats, Russians or even Poles to do with your dispute?). Wouldn't you be pi..ed off when someone insulted your ethnicity just because he has some dispute with some random guy who belongs to the same ancestry as you?

Goga
05-06-14, 12:26
If he insults you, either report it or insult back to him, but don't mix an entire ethnicity, let alone ethno-linguistic group, into your war. (What the heck have Croats, Russians or even Poles to do with your dispute?). Wouldn't you be pi..ed off when someone insulted your ethnicity just because he has some dispute with some random guy who belongs to the same ancestry as you?I'm not insulting Slavic people in general. I've only something against his Polish-Slavonic @$$ as person. I'm tired of his RETARD nonsense, his efforts to steal someone’s else history, because he has no great history and therefore has an inferiority complex. Stealing other's people history is low and an insult to those people.

Alan
05-06-14, 12:33
I'm not insulting Slavic people in general. I've only something against his Polish-Slavonic @$$ as person. I'm tired of his RETARD nonsense, his efforts to steal someone’s else history, because he has no great history and therefore has an inferiority complex.


So you are not insulting him as a polish-slavonic @$$ and when you say he has "no great history"? Wouldn't you feel insulted if he said the same about you as a KURDISH person? Insulting a people in general is a childish attitude I only see among wannabe ethnic Aryan racists. I saw him insult you first this is why I quite frankly understood your anger when you directed your anger against him. But now you have lost it a bit in anger like a Vulcano and start to throw with insults against ethnic groups.

I have met so many Polish people but yet beside a few they all were nice people. Our co worker is Polish, the (for long now) Girlfriend of my brother is Polish. Isn't it somehow also insulting to her if you put in the "ethnic card"?

Beside as I said Goga, if you are right the future testings will show it. I am on your side with the Idea that R1a* and that either Proto Indo Europeanes or Proto_Proto Indo Europeans evolved somewhere between West and South_Central Asia.

Goga
05-06-14, 12:44
So you are not insulting him as a POLISH-SLAVONIC @$$ and when you say he has "no great history"? Wouldn't you feel insulted if he said the same about you as a KURDISH person? Insulting a people in general is a childish attitude I only see among wannabe ethnic Aryan racists. I saw him insult you first this is why I quite frankly understood your anger first when you directed your anger against him. But now you have lost it a bit in anger like a Vulcano and start to throw with insults against ethnic groups.I never insulted Slavic people. I don’t care how they eat, talk, breath, do look like and how they smell. And it's a fact that they don’t have a great history, compared to the Greeks (ancient Athens), Italians (the Roman Empire), Kurds (Aryan Median Empire) etc. I'm not interested in those people and their history and their life.
And people should know where such kind of retard nonsense is from and what kind of people are spreading this nonsense. These people are giving their own people a bad name, not me!

polako
05-06-14, 13:01
Guys chill a bit, at the end of the day none of you will be able to determine the exact place of R1a origin.

But we can determine that there was a population movement from Europe to Asia during the Bronze Age, and judging by this latest study these people carried R1a-Z93.

It's very annoying when a discussion about this interesting topic is drowned out by the hysterical ramblings of a person who doesn't want to comprehend a few basic facts.

Alan
05-06-14, 13:23
But we can determine that there was a population movement from Europe to Asia during the Bronze Age, and judging by this latest study these people carried R1a-Z93.It's very annoying when a discussion about this interesting topic is drowned out by the hysterical ramblings of a person who doesn't want to comprehend a few basic facts.Iam currently not at Home but when i am back i will give a comment to it

Goga
05-06-14, 13:38
But we can determine that there was a population movement from Europe to Asia during the Bronze Age, and judging by this latest study these people carried R1a-Z93.

It's very annoying when a discussion about this interesting topic is drowned out by the hysterical ramblings of a person who doesn't want to comprehend a few basic facts.There is no movement of people determined from Western Steppes into BMAC. It's a well know FACT that so called 'Aryans' who invaded India came from BMAC (or Oxus civilization). Also R1a in Eastern Europe is Z282 or Z283. There's no such thing as a native European Z93. Z93 was NOT evolved in Europe and it is NOT European at all. Z282 and Z283 are NOT ancestral to Z93. They're cousins and that's all, but they are not the same. How is it possible that you don't understand such a simple detail? http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288

Maciamo
05-06-14, 14:29
the most interesting thing of this paper is that almost everybody from the Bronze Age had brown eyes and dark hair. Only 1 fella is tested with blue eyes. So assumption that all Indo-European R1a tribes in Central Asia were blue eyed blonde people is nonsense and can be put in the garbage. Most likely the so called 'Aryans' (Iranic people) that migrated into Northern-India looked like modern-day Kurds and NorthWestern Iranians. I mean Caucasus-Gedrosia kind of people! People of different colors and shapes, some of them were light, some of them were dark, like we see in Kurdistan and Persia.

Those samples from Mongolia were heavily mixed with East Asians, which explains why most are dark haired with brown eyes.

Aberdeen
05-06-14, 18:15
.......................
I am on your side with the Idea that R1a* evolved somewhere between West and South_Central Asia.

I don't think anyone is disputing that as a possibility or even a probability. But there's a very long time gap between the time when R1a* first appeared and the time when Z282 and Z93 appear to have expanded rather dramatically, some time around the beginning of the Bronze Age. As has been discussed in other threads, the dividing line that (mostly) separates those two subclades would suggest that the expansion started from the Russian steppes. If you have a reason for locating the initial expansion point somewhere further east and south (a reason other than what happened thousands of years previously), I for one would be interested in reading about it. I do realize that there are dangers in using present day DNA distributions to explain what happened in past time periods such as the Bronze Age, in parts of the world where there have been a lot of subsequent population movements. But at this point, I see the distribution of those two subclades as evidence of the IE homeland being on the Russian steppes, regardless of where R1a* first evolved.

Goga
05-06-14, 18:53
But there is no ancient Z282 or Z283 found in Central Asia. There's not proof at all that Z93 or ancestor of Z93 is from Europe. Where's the proof? I want to see a proof! This doesn't make any sense. Actually, there're many indications that Z93 and ancestor of Z93 is from the Iranian Plateau. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288 and http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201450a.html

ebAmerican
05-06-14, 20:12
The issue I have is there is no archaeological data showing influence of the BMAC region north, but there is archaeological evidence showing Andronovo Cultural influence in the BMAC. We have R1a in the Andronovo around 2000BC. No ancient DNA data has shown R1a in the middle east before 2000 BC. There was a strong relationship between the Middle East, BMAC, and the Harappa culture, but little contact between these cultures and the Steppe until 2000 BC when the nomads began to settle down to farm. Andronovo is probably Pro-Indo-Iranian, and brought the language into the Middle East and Northern India from BMAC zone. Andronovo was intrusive into the BMAC zone and a substratum of BMAC words for farming, religion, and urban life can be found in Indo-Iranian from the settling into farms and urban life of the Andronovo-Tazabag'yab culture hybrid culture. There was trade and cultural exchange between the Volga and Mongolia area prior to 4000 BC. After 4000 BC there is evidence for contact of the Volga into Eastern Europe. R1a-M17 is found in small amounts in all known modern areas of R1a distribution. A West Central Asian home land for R1a* south or north of the Caspian Sea is probable according to modern distributions. I would guess north of the Caspian Sea. If ancient R1a is found in the Zargos Mountains or the Iranian Plateau, then I reevaluate my stance. This is all backed up by Mallory and Underhill.

Engel
05-06-14, 22:19
R1a originated in Siberia. No offense but Goga seems to be a half wit

Aberdeen
05-06-14, 22:25
R1a originated in Siberia. No offense but Goga seems to be a half wit

Stop the childish name calling. Goga has a point of view I don't agree with, but at least he tries to present arguments to support his views. You just threw out a statement without explaining anything, which isn't a very impressive way of doing things. I have yet to see you present a well thought out position about anything.

Aberdeen
06-06-14, 00:36
But there is no ancient Z282 or Z283 found in Central Asia. There's not proof at all that Z93 or ancestor of Z93 is from Europe. Where's the proof? I want to see a proof! This doesn't make any sense. Actually, there're many indications that Z93 and ancestor of Z93 is from the Iranian Plateau. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288 and http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201450a.html

Look at the R1a migration map on this website. The map shows where Z93 started from and where it spread to.

Alan
06-06-14, 03:45
But we can determine that there was a population movement from Europe to Asia during the Bronze Age, and judging by this latest study these people carried R1a-Z93.


Sure there was population movement from Europe into Asia. And allot of it is even recorded. Like Scythians, Cimmerians etc. But the question we need to ask ourselves is, Coudln't this have been rather a "back migration" ?

It could be that the Indo_Iranian branch of Indo European languages has a Northern Origin in is a signal of back migration into West and South_central Asia. These could have brought z93 with them.

But What if the ancestory of this Northern Indo European tribes (like the Balto_Slavs, Indo_Iranians etc.) had their root coming from somewhere else, like Western Asia for example. This would make the Indo_Iranian/Balto_Slavic only a second expansion and not initialy the first.

The new foundings that the Kurgan people had darker features to modern Europeans speak for a population movement into this area in my opinion.

There are two reasons for me to think that way. If they were simply local Hunther and Gatherers, they would have alleles for dark skin and light eyes. But the Kurgan people where rather medium skinned and mixed eyed with the majority beeing brown. So it is unlikely that they were local Hunthers and Gatherers. Also the Kurgan culture seems to have roots in Mesopotamia.

There are few possible scenarios in my opinion.
the most likely two in my opinion.
1. Proto_Indo Europeans moved from a region between West and South_Central Asia into the Steppes/Northern Caucasus and from their they spread into Europe. The Indo_Iranian branch could have existed already in Western Asia or they evolved later in the Steppes/Northern Caucasus and from there migrated around the globe.

2. Proto_Indo Europeans ultimately evolved in the Pontic_Caspian steppes and migrated from there around the globe. But the Proto_Proto Indo Europeans came from somewhere else, again West Asia is the best candidate.

Alan
06-06-14, 03:55
Moreover, R1a-Z93 is closely related to the European-specific R1a-Z282, since they both share the Z645 mutation which is only around 4,500 years old. But basal R1a-Z93 lineages do exist in Europe, and these are difficult to cluster and unlikely to be the result of any sort of recent migrations from Asia to Europe.

http://imageshack.com/a/img836/5088/8qxx.jpg

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results


But this is not the only subclade found in Western Asia.

These here are also quite common.
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/nowe%20mapy/3a-b_zps900443f5.jpg

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/nowe%20mapy/z2124_zpse6db1de0.jpg


Those are not the only one. There are quite some more. And since R1a* is quite diverse iN Western_SouthCentral Asia, I doubt that all of them can be explained with movements from Europe.

Fire Haired14
06-06-14, 06:19
Alan and Gogo,

We all know you guys arguing against a European origin of R1a Z93 and Indo Iranian languages because of agenda not logic. Your previous posts show that you will argue for any type of origin if it's not European.

You guys miss interpret people who argue for a European origin as being Eurocentric. People are insulting you guys because they are getting fed up with your biased theories and refusal to acknowledge the evidence of a European origin of R1a Z93 and Indo Iranian languages, not because they hate west Asians. Both of you should look over this situation, not take insults on the internet so seriously(so you don't dis agree with someone just because they insulted you), and read the evidence again.


Goga: So Aryans who Invaded India have to be 'Central Asian' people, they were already partly 'Central Asian' who mixed with the natives of Central Asia at that time. And now we know that those Central Asian people were mostly brown eyes, dark hair!

And IMO that's impossible. Why? Because ancient R* they found in Central Asia was also dark too. That's why I do believe that its descendant R1* was dark too.

The ancient Medes & Persians called themselves 'Aryans'. The Medes & Persians looked exactly like modern day Iranic people in Kurdistan and NorthWest Persia.

This debate was never about whether the early Indo Iranians of bronze age south and west Asia were light or dark pigmentated. It isn't the end of the world if R1a Z93 and Indo Iranian languages originated in European-looking people. There are many people even today in south-central Asia with radically differnt physical features like Indians and Tibetans, and they are very comfortable with this. Don't worry, the actions of pre historic people never or rarely had anything to to do with our culture's concept of race.

Studying history isn't about measuring the esteem of people groups. If you go far back enough almost every population has very unpure ancestry, the most traditional and popular parts of their culture even their ethnic identity comes from exotic(in their point of view) foreigners, and their history is full of many evil people and actions. Indo Iranian languages and R1a Z93 originating in people you see as foreign should not be so hard to accept, and does not destroy the integrity of Kurdish people.

Engel
06-06-14, 06:58
Stop the childish name calling. Goga has a point of view I don't agree with, but at least he tries to present arguments to support his views. You just threw out a statement without explaining anything, which isn't a very impressive way of doing things. I have yet to see you present a well thought out position about anything.
Qute simple really. Just google Siberian origins of R1a

Sile
06-06-14, 09:14
Stop the childish name calling. Goga has a point of view I don't agree with, but at least he tries to present arguments to support his views. You just threw out a statement without explaining anything, which isn't a very impressive way of doing things. I have yet to see you present a well thought out position about anything.

I have to agree with you

IIRC, this arguement was on another forum and the conclusion was Z93 origins was NE caspian sea area , where post#55 ( first map ) has the purple figures

polako
06-06-14, 11:01
Those are not the only one. There are quite some more. And since R1a* is quite diverse iN Western_SouthCentral Asia, I doubt that all of them can be explained with movements from Europe.

They can all be explained by movements from Europe to Asia during the past 5,000 years.

West Asia, including Kurdistan, was a very different place before the Indo-European and Turkic migrations into the area. It was more like a cross between Sardinia and the southern Levant than what it is today.

mihaitzateo
06-06-14, 12:14
R1a originated in Siberia. No offense but Goga seems to be a half wit

What are your proofs for that?
First of all,there are no proofs that R1A originated only in one place.
Now,supposing that R1A originated only in one place and that place would have been Siberia,how come now most people in Siberia are N or Q,or whatever,but they are not R1A?
I think actually R1A originated in more than one place and places were R1A originated are North-West Asia -Iran and so on,also,Eastern Europe (not Siberia).
If R1A is also found in Central Asia,at some populations,that is something that is not usual for all populations there.
Besides,it need to be taken into account that Central Asian people mixed with Indo-European people .

Alan
06-06-14, 12:19
They can all be explained by movements from Europe to Asia during the past 5,000 years.

West Asia, including Kurdistan, was a very different place before the Indo-European and Turkic migrations into the area. It was more like a cross between Sardinia and the southern Levant than what it is today.

But so was Europe. When the Indo Europeans evolved in the Bronze Age, The Near East (especially the eastern part and Caucasus) was already not Sardinian-Levantine like anymore.
Future testings and studies will hopefully shed more light to this.

mihaitzateo
06-06-14, 12:46
Lol,according to the article here,in Eupedia, R originated in Altai mountains:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml
Yes,sure, :D .
And all people emigrated from there.
If some individual bones belonging to R HG were found in Altai Mountains,how logic is to say R originated in Altai Mountains?
Maybe later will be found even older bones with R HG in another part of the world.

Goga
06-06-14, 13:16
Alan and Gogo,

We all know you guys arguing against a European origin of R1a Z93 and Indo Iranian languages because of agenda not logic. Your previous posts show that you will argue for any type of origin if it's not European.

You guys miss interpret people who argue for a European origin as being Eurocentric. People are insulting you guys because they are getting fed up with your biased theories and refusal to acknowledge the evidence of a European origin of R1a Z93 and Indo Iranian languages, not because they hate west Asians. Both of you should look over this situation, not take insults on the internet so seriously(so you don't dis agree with someone just because they insulted you), and read the evidence again.LMAO, but there is NO evidence at all Z93 being from Western Steppes at all, just show me 1 recent academic paper that is published in a renowned magazine that support these wild fantasy claims. You believe in your own created fantasies. Although, there're many scientific papers that proof my believes.There’s neither native Z282 nor native Z283 in ancient Central Asia samples. There never ancestors of Asian Z93 has been found in the Western Steppes. There’re no direct links between Z282/Z283 and Z93. Also, I feel sorry for people who have nothing to do with ancient Z93. Neither ancestors nor descendants of Z93 folks do live in EuropeBut you're a free man to live in a different reality, in your dream world. But when you try to come back to a common 'reality' it will be extra hard for you to adapt. And people like you will be the real losers in the real world (common contemp. reality).
From now on I'm going to try to ignore you again...

Goga
06-06-14, 13:22
They can all be explained by movements from Europe to Asia during the past 5,000 years.

West Asia, including Kurdistan, was a very different place before the Indo-European and Turkic migrations into the area. It was more like a cross between Sardinia and the southern Levant than what it is today.Again, more lies. More Assyrian propaganda. Assyrians are Semitic people who are originally from the Red Sea and Arabian Peninsula. Kurdistan mountains were always inhabitant by non-Semitic people. Kurds are native to their homeland and Kurdistan has been always inhabitant by people like Kurds, not like Assyrians, Arabs or other Semites. Semites came from south. Actually Kurdish ancestors from the mountains influenced Semitic (and therefore Assyrian) gene pool. A lot haplogorups native to Kurdistan you can find among Semites, from Levant to Arabia. Sumerians were NOT Semites. People of Ubaid and Halaf civilizations were not Semitic etc. Taurus and Zagros were NEVER Semitic!

Goga
06-06-14, 13:25
All what I do ask from you guys are academic EVIDENCES!Nothing more, nothing less. You're arguing with your feelings and not withfacts. And there is no proof at all for West to East migration of R1a in theancient times. If Z93 was from the Western Steppes we would have evidences ofit. We would find ancestral R1a of Z93 in this area. But there're no traces.

Goga
06-06-14, 13:37
The issue I have is there is no archaeological data showing influence of the BMAC region north, but there is archaeological evidence showing Andronovo Cultural influence in the BMAC. We have R1a in the Andronovo around 2000BC. No ancient DNA data has shown R1a in the middle east before 2000 BC. There was a strong relationship between the Middle East, BMAC, and the Harappa culture, but little contact between these cultures and the Steppe until 2000 BC when the nomads began to settle down to farm. Andronovo is probably Pro-Indo-Iranian, and brought the language into the Middle East and Northern India from BMAC zone. Andronovo was intrusive into the BMAC zone and a substratum of BMAC words for farming, religion, and urban life can be found in Indo-Iranian from the settling into farms and urban life of the Andronovo-Tazabag'yab culture hybrid culture. There was trade and cultural exchange between the Volga and Mongolia area prior to 4000 BC. After 4000 BC there is evidence for contact of the Volga into Eastern Europe. R1a-M17 is found in small amounts in all known modern areas of R1a distribution. A West Central Asian home land for R1a* south or north of the Caspian Sea is probable according to modern distributions. I would guess north of the Caspian Sea. If ancient R1a is found in the Zargos Mountains or the Iranian Plateau, then I reevaluate my stance. This is all backed up by Mallory and Underhill.Wrong again, as you can see Andronovo Culture was heavily mixed by the Mongoloid gene pool. There is no such thing around BMAC. And BMAC is totally a different civilization. Just read something about it and you will find it out.
2 different cultures, 2 different races, 2 different civilization. And so called 'Aryans' who invaded India were from BMAC!

matbir
06-06-14, 14:35
It looks like there is a need to remind about some basic facts.
1. Genetic studies used for describing population history are complementary to such sciences like History and archeology.
2. According to archeological evidence undeniably there was migration from Yamna culture to Central Asia, which formed Afanasevo culture(3000 - 1700 BC). Before that there is no sign of migration through Ural Mountains, and cultures on both sides of them are distinct in that period in western steppes there were herders while in Central Asia there ware horse hunters.
3. Anthropologically people from Afanasevo, Andronovo and BMAC ware similar to those from Europe.
4. Genetic study shows that R1a-M417 is about 5800 years old(coalescent time), that means it originated about 3800 BC which correspond to Yamna expansion 3400-2700BC. Other lineages of R1a are very rare, probably because R1a was rare haplogroup, but one family made success to go to the vast grass lands taking their wagons polled by horses, so they didn't need to have a camp on side of a river.
5. Ancient DNA reveals migration from Europe to Asia but not in opposite direction.
6. Goga has posted study which concludes that diversity of STR's is higher in India then elsewhere. But in India there is lack of old subclades it is evident that there was migration from areas with older lineages.

Every single evidence shows that Indo-European movement was from Pontic Steppe to Central Asia but not in opposite direction.

In that case is totally irrelevant where R1a originated, because it is old Paleolithic haplogroup. It could have originated every ware from Atlantic coast to Altai Mountains 25 000 years ago.

Alan
06-06-14, 15:53
I thought there was evidence of Southern influence into the Yamnaya culture. Wasn't there more recently a study which said that the Kurgan burial system has it's roots somewhere in Mesopotamia or Northwestern Iran?

Kurgan people were darker skinned than modern people from that area, but not in the way Hunters and Gatherers were (very Dark skin + light eyes) but in the way that they likely had Olive like skin and mixed but mostly brown eyes?

polako
06-06-14, 16:05
Goga has posted study which concludes that diversity of SNP's is higher in India then elsewhere. But in India there is lack of old subclades it is evident that there was migration from areas with older lineages.

He posted an old study which relied on STRs to measure variance. STRs are useless for that sort of thing, as we now know.

It seems we're having a discussion with some people who can't grasp the basics here...

1) All Near Eastern admixture in most of Europe (except Sicily) can be explained by early Neolithic farmers.

2) It's highly unlikely that early Neolithic farmers brought R1a to Europe.

3) Europeans have post-Neolithic ancestry from the Eastern European steppe which is related to the Mal'ta genome from Siberia, which belonged to Y-HG R.

4) Therefore, R1a arrived in Europe from the Eastern European steppe and has nothing whatsoever to do with any migration from the Near East into Europe at any stage.

mihaitzateo
06-06-14, 16:32
He posted an old study which relied on STRs to measure variance. STRs are useless for that sort of thing, as we now know.

It seems we're having a discussion with some people who can't grasp the basics here...

1) All Near Eastern admixture in most of Europe (except Sicily) can be explained by early Neolithic farmers.

2) It's highly unlikely that early Neolithic farmers brought R1a to Europe.

3) Europeans have post-Neolithic ancestry from the Eastern European steppe which is related to the Mal'ta genome from Siberia, which belonged to Y-HG R.

4) Therefore, R1a arrived in Europe from the Eastern European steppe and has nothing whatsoever to do with any migration from the Near East into Europe at any stage.
Where is the highest diversity of R1A?
I highly doubt that in Eastern European steppe there is high diversity of R1A.

Aberdeen
06-06-14, 16:39
Wrong again, as you can see Andronovo Culture was heavily mixed by the Mongoloid gene pool. There is no such thing around BMAC. And BMAC is totally a different civilization. Just read something about it and you will find it out.
2 different cultures, 2 different races, 2 different civilization. And so called 'Aryans' who invaded India were from BMAC!

You seem to be confusing the results from this Altaic find with the results from the Andronovo Culture. The results from Andronovo were 90% R1a and 60% blond haired and light eyed - very different results from these Altaic results, which suggest R1a migration eastward during the Bronze Age. And there is plenty of evidence of BMAC being heavily influenced by the Andronovo Culture.

LeBrok
06-06-14, 16:46
It doesn't matter where R1a originated 20k years ago if this discussion is about 4,000 year old Z93 and 6,000 year old origin of IEs.



PS. Please refrain from name calling. I'll be forced to act next time it happens.

polako
06-06-14, 16:48
Where is the highest diversity of R1A?
I highly doubt that in Eastern European steppe there is high diversity of R1A.

In West Central Europe. This area has pretty much anything you can think of except the younger Central Asian subclades like L657 and stuff below that, simply because it hasn't been affected by migrations from Central Asia. In fact, L657 is completely missing from all of Europe.

West Central Europe is also where M417 breaks up into CTS4385 and Z645, and of course the main Asian subclade of R1a, which is R1a-Z93, is under Z645.

CTS4385 only exists in Western and Northern Europe, so CTS4385 and Z645 could not have separated far from there, which suggests the vast majority, if not all, Asian R1a is from well inside Europe. The Corded Ware R1a haplotype from Eulau looks CTS4385+.

These are very strong arguments, but many people simply don't understand them.

ebAmerican
06-06-14, 17:52
Wrong again, as you can see Andronovo Culture was heavily mixed by the Mongoloid gene pool. There is no such thing around BMAC. And BMAC is totally a different civilization. Just read something about it and you will find it out.
2 different cultures, 2 different races, 2 different civilization. And so called 'Aryans' who invaded India were from BMAC!

Wrong

"There is evidence of sustained contact between the BMAC and the Eurasian steppes to the north, intensifying c. 2000 BCE. In the delta of the River Amu Darya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amu_Darya) where it reaches the Aral Sea, its waters were channeled for irrigation agriculture by people whose remains resemble those of the nomads of the Andronovo Culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_Culture). This is interpreted as nomads settling down to agriculture, after contact with the BMAC. The culture they created is known as Tazabag'yad.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria%E2%80%93Margiana_Archaeological_Complex#ci te_note-13) About 1800 BCE the walled BMAC centres decreased sharply in size. Each oasis developed its own types of pottery and other objects. Also pottery of the Andronovo-Tazabag'yab culture to the north appeared widely in the Bactrian and Margian countryside. Many BMAC strongholds continued to be occupied and Andronovo-Tazabagyab coarse incised pottery occurs within them (along with the previous BMAC pottery) as well as in pastoral camps outside the mudbrick walls. In the highlands above the Bactrian oases in Tajikistan, kurgan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan) cemeteries of the Vaksh and Bishkent type appeared with pottery that mixed elements of the late BMAC and Andronovo-Tazabagyab traditions." Wikipedia BMAC

The Aryan invasion of North India used wheeled chariots and burial practices from the Steppe cultures and were a hybrid people with BMAC.

"The answer may lie, says Anthony, in a 3,000-year-old religious text called the Rig Veda, a book of hymns compiled by the Aryans--the horsemen who invaded the Indian subcontinent from the north. The hymns give detailed accounts of Aryan rituals. In mortuary rituals, warriors were buried with their chariots and horses. A plank roof was laid across the burial chamber, and horses and a goat were sacrificed on the roof and again around an earthen mound built on top. A thousand years before the Rig Veda, the Sintashta people were burying their dead in the same way--down to the last eerie detail."

http://discovermagazine.com/1995/apr/chariotracersoft500

Goga
06-06-14, 19:32
Where is the highest diversity of R1A?
I highly doubt that in Eastern European steppe there is high diversity of R1A.Kurdistan. In Kurdistan you can find everything, even the OLDEST types. There are in Kurdistan ancient types of R1a* like the subclade to which I do belong. There're also the European types (Z282/Z283variants) and Asian Z93 types and evolved Aryan/Iranian Z93 types, like mong Kurds and Persians. In Europe, there're no ancient Asian Z93 type at all, nor types that are older than West Asian one. In Europe R1a is VERY young (compared to the type I do belong and maybe even yonger than Z93 itself) and entered Europe in very recent times.

Goga
06-06-14, 19:38
Wrong

The Aryan invasion of North India used wheeled chariots and burial practices from the Steppe cultures and were a hybrid people with BMAC.

"The answer may lie, says Anthony, in a 3,000-year-old religious text called the Rig Veda, a book of hymns compiled by the Aryans--the horsemen who invaded the Indian subcontinent from the north. The hymns give detailed accounts of Aryan rituals. In mortuary rituals, warriors were buried with their chariots and horses. A plank roof was laid across the burial chamber, and horses and a goat were sacrificed on the roof and again around an earthen mound built on top. A thoua, t
Impossible, everything is different. archeology, art, way of life, origin/history. Also R1a folks in the Norhern EurAsia were partly Mongoloid as we can see in the first post, full of Y-DNA hg. Q, N1c, and C.
people in BMAC were evolved 'Iranic'/'Aryan' what means that they belonged to much other haplogroups, like Central Asian hg. R2, and West Asian R1a and J2a.

Silesian
06-06-14, 20:09
Kurdistan. In Kurdistan you can find everything, even the OLDEST types. There are in Kurdistan ancient types of R1a* like the subclade to which I do belong. There're also the European types (Z282/Z283variants) and Asian Z93 types and evolved Aryan/Iranian Z93 types, like mong Kurds and Persians. In Europe, there're no ancient Asian Z93 type at all, nor types that are older than West Asian one. In Europe R1a is VERY young (compared to the type I do belong and maybe even yonger than Z93 itself) and entered Europe in very recent times.

Grugni et al. Gharbi region combined 109N. It would be interesting to test other adjacent areas to see if the results are similar.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

R*
R1*
R1b*
R1a1a*
R1b1a2*
R1b1a2a*


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/West_Azerbaijan_in_Iran.svg/672px-West_Azerbaijan_in_Iran.svg.png

Sile
06-06-14, 20:54
It looks like there is a need to remind about some basic facts.
1. Genetic studies used for describing population history are complementary to such sciences like History and archeology.
2. According to archeological evidence undeniably there was migration from Yamna culture to Central Asia, which formed Afanasevo culture(3000 - 1700 BC). Before that there is no sign of migration through Ural Mountains, and cultures on both sides of them are distinct in that period in western steppes there were herders while in Central Asia there ware horse hunters.
3. Anthropologically people from Afanasevo, Andronovo and BMAC ware similar to those from Europe.
4. Genetic study shows that R1a-M417 is about 5800 years old(coalescent time), that means it originated about 3800 BC which correspond to Yamna expansion 3400-2700BC. Other lineages of R1a are very rare, probably because R1a was rare haplogroup, but one family made success to go to the vast grass lands taking their wagons polled by horses, so they didn't need to have a camp on side of a river.
5. Ancient DNA reveals migration from Europe to Asia but not in opposite direction.
6. Goga has posted study which concludes that diversity of SNP's is higher in India then elsewhere. But in India there is lack of old subclades it is evident that there was migration from areas with older lineages.

Every single evidence shows that Indo-European movement was from Pontic Steppe to Central Asia but not in opposite direction.

In that case is totally irrelevant where R1a originated, because it is old Paleolithic haplogroup. It could have originated every ware from Atlantic coast to Altai Mountains 25 000 years ago.

yes, but its not from the eastern steppes either its from BMAC or Oxus river area ( current turkmenistan more thsi , than uzbekistan )

Sile
06-06-14, 20:58
I thought there was evidence of Southern influence into the Yamnaya culture. Wasn't there more recently a study which said that the Kurgan burial system has it's roots somewhere in Mesopotamia or Northwestern Iran?

Kurgan people were darker skinned than modern people from that area, but not in the way Hunters and Gatherers were (very Dark skin + light eyes) but in the way that they likely had Olive like skin and mixed but mostly brown eyes?

there is

This theory of a barrier between south caucasus and north Caucasus is a myth, propaganda or whatever you want to call it...........It's some form or "Purity of race" for eastern europeans, I do not not why they state this

Sile
06-06-14, 21:02
He posted an old study which relied on STRs to measure variance. STRs are useless for that sort of thing, as we now know.

It seems we're having a discussion with some people who can't grasp the basics here...

1) All Near Eastern admixture in most of Europe (except Sicily) can be explained by early Neolithic farmers.

2) It's highly unlikely that early Neolithic farmers brought R1a to Europe.

3) Europeans have post-Neolithic ancestry from the Eastern European steppe which is related to the Mal'ta genome from Siberia, which belonged to Y-HG R.

4) Therefore, R1a arrived in Europe from the Eastern European steppe and has nothing whatsoever to do with any migration from the Near East into Europe at any stage.

your comments 2, 3 and 4 insinuate that R1b must have also gone with R1a via eastern European or did these ancients have the knowledge to know which haplotype they where?

Clearly R1a and R1b split from R ................where is the origins or R ?

Sile
06-06-14, 21:06
You seem to be confusing the results from this Altaic find with the results from the Andronovo Culture. The results from Andronovo were 90% R1a and 60% blond haired and light eyed - very different results from these Altaic results, which suggest R1a migration eastward during the Bronze Age. And there is plenty of evidence of BMAC being heavily influenced by the Andronovo Culture.

From what I read , BMAC area is the origins of most of European Haplotypes ..............your reference would would be back-migrations to BMAC

Alan
06-06-14, 23:35
Grugni et al. Gharbi region combined 109N. It would be interesting to test other adjacent areas to see if the results are similar.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

R*
R1*
R1b*
R1a1a*
R1b1a2*
R1b1a2a*


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/West_Azerbaijan_in_Iran.svg/672px-West_Azerbaijan_in_Iran.svg.png

confirmation for my point. The origin of R1a* or even R* as a whole, somewhere between West and South_Central Asia, because those are the areas where all subclades of R* and R* itself have been found.

I am not disputing that maybe even most of Indo Europeans spread from the Eastern European steppes, but I am disputing that they were locals to this area and did not immigrate from further South.

I am also not disputing the possibility of a northern origin of Indo_Iranian speakers.

Goga
07-06-14, 00:37
I am also not disputing the possibility of a northern origin of Indo_Iranian speakers.Don't fall into a manipulative propaganda. Maybe this will help: "A solution to the problem of Indo-Aryan origins" --> http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2010/12/solution-to-problem-of-indo-aryan.html

And : "A solution to the problem of Indo-Aryan origins (part 2)" --> http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2011/05/solution-to-problem-of-indo-aryan.html

Goga
07-06-14, 00:49
Grugni et al. Gharbi region combined 109N. It would be interesting to test other adjacent areas to see if the results are similar.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

R*
R1*
R1b*
R1a1a*
R1b1a2*
R1b1a2a*

Thank you very much for sharing this. You're one of the very few proud & honest people on sites like this! Very open minded, without having any mental barriers (issues) and dare to speak the truth.

Aberdeen
07-06-14, 01:41
From what I read , BMAC area is the origins of most of European Haplotypes ..............your reference would would be back-migrations to BMAC

So, you've found a published paper with DNA results from the testing of BMAC people who lived prior to those Andronovo folk? Please tell me the name(s) of the author(s) of this paper and the year it was published, so I can read it.

We both know that no such data exists. And no, the proto-Iranian migration into the BMAC area was not "back-migrations".

motzart
07-06-14, 05:11
The egg is on Hitler's face now! He said that the Germans were the Aryan master race and the Slavs were the untermensch, but it turns out the Slavs are the Aryans! Hahaha, and he was an African himself, bahahaha. :embarassed::laughing:

Fire Haired14
07-06-14, 05:57
The egg is on Hitler's face now! He said that the Germans were the Aryan master race and the Slavs were the untermensch, but it turns out the Slavs are the Aryans! Hahaha, and he was an African himself, bahahaha. :embarassed::laughing:

You're twisting the facts.

Aryan is what people back then called Indo Europeans. I am pretty sure there were German-supremacist movements in the late 1800s and early 1900s that claimed Indo European languages originated in Germanic lands and that Germans were full blooded Indo Europeans aka Aryans, while all other Indo European speakers were unpure. Indo Europeans were called Aryans, because that is what early Indo Iranians in India and Iran called themselves. If you go by the literally origin of the name neither Germans or Slaves have anything to do with Aryans.

Adolf Hitler was not African, he was probably genetically a typical Austrian. He belonged to Y DNA E1b1b1-M35 which makes means his paternal lineage in the Upper Palaeolithic was in east Africa but so what. His paternal lineage is probably descended of Neolithic European farmers, but we need to know his subclade to be for sure.

skaheen15
07-06-14, 10:17
You guys miss interpret people who argue for a European origin as being Eurocentric. People are insulting you guys because they are getting fed up with your biased theories and refusal to acknowledge the evidence of a European origin of R1a Z93 and Indo Iranian languages, not because they hate west Asians. Both of you should look over this situation, not take insults on the internet so seriously(so you don't dis agree with someone just because they insulted you), and read the evidence again.



This debate was never about whether the early Indo Iranians of bronze age south and west Asia were light or dark pigmentated. It isn't the end of the world if R1a Z93 and Indo Iranian languages originated in European-looking people. There are many people even today in south-central Asia with radically differnt physical features like Indians and Tibetans, and they are very comfortable with this. Don't worry, the actions of pre historic people never or rarely had anything to to do with our culture's concept of race.

Studying history isn't about measuring the esteem of people groups. If you go far back enough almost every population has very unpure ancestry, the most traditional and popular parts of their culture even their ethnic identity comes from exotic(in their point of view) foreigners, and their history is full of many evil people and actions. Indo Iranian languages and R1a Z93 originating in people you see as foreign should not be so hard to accept, and does not destroy the integrity of Kurdish people.

Exactly, well said.
The evidence for an ultimate steppe origin of the Indo-Iranian folk is so overwhelming at this point, it's hard to imagine that anyone could make such an impassioned argument to the contrary for anything but emotional reasons, and it's just ridiculous to kick and scream against good science because of your misguided ethnic pride. Why should the fact that Z93 came to central Asia from the west undermine the heritage of the Kurds in any way? Implying that the mass of scientists studying this topic all have some kind of racialist agenda is a classic example of projection. Advocates of obsolete ideas and fringe theories almost always start imagining vast conspiracies when they've run out of valid arguments. It gets really annoying after awhile.

matbir
07-06-14, 11:21
I thought there was evidence of Southern influence into the Yamnaya culture. Wasn't there more recently a study which said that the Kurgan burial system has it's roots somewhere in Mesopotamia or Northwestern Iran?

Kurgan people were darker skinned than modern people from that area, but not in the way Hunters and Gatherers were (very Dark skin + light eyes) but in the way that they likely had Olive like skin and mixed but mostly brown eyes?There could have been some cultural influence from south through Caucasus. In southern part of steppe people ware darker than that from middle Volga. I doubt that it was Near Eastern influence, rather selective pressure for light features was weaker than in the north. Even today, Ukrainians shows some darker features then Poles, Byelorussians, Russians and Morvins.
BTW Remember that in Eurasian steppe there is no autochthonous people, everyone comes from somewhere else in last 1,5 thousand years, and in some areas in last 200 years.

He posted an old study which relied on STRs to measure variance. STRs are useless for that sort of thing, as we now know.

It seems we're having a discussion with some people who can't grasp the basics here...

1) All Near Eastern admixture in most of Europe (except Sicily) can be explained by early Neolithic farmers.

2) It's highly unlikely that early Neolithic farmers brought R1a to Europe.

3) Europeans have post-Neolithic ancestry from the Eastern European steppe which is related to the Mal'ta genome from Siberia, which belonged to Y-HG R.

4) Therefore, R1a arrived in Europe from the Eastern European steppe and has nothing whatsoever to do with any migration from the Near East into Europe at any stage.My mistake, I intended to write STR not SNP, otherwise my statement would have no point.
3. I do not thing that population of European steppe was direct descendant of Mal'ta boy, because of admixture results. That Siberian population did not survive with its genetic composition, there had to be a lot of bottle necks. As we know there is no evidence of migration from Central Asia to Europe, but there are a lot of signs of migration from Anatolia to Balkans. I think that most of European genetic composition was established by migration from Anatolia.
4. Same thing with R1a; it could entered Europe some time from 25000 - 10 000 YBP from Anatolia, with higher probability for second date, because it's older subclades are not as common as other paleolithic haplogroups in Europe like I.

Kurdistan. In Kurdistan you can find everything, even the OLDEST types. There are in Kurdistan ancient types of R1a* like the subclade to which I do belong. There're also the European types (Z282/Z283variants) and Asian Z93 types and evolved Aryan/Iranian Z93 types, like mong Kurds and Persians. In Europe, there're no ancient Asian Z93 type at all, nor types that are older than West Asian one. In Europe R1a is VERY young (compared to the type I do belong and maybe even yonger than Z93 itself) and entered Europe in very recent times.The oldest subclades positive only for M420 are also found in Great Britain and France, does it mean that Kurds migrated from Atlantic cost to Near East?:rolleyes2:

Drax
07-06-14, 12:02
I thought there was evidence of Southern influence into the Yamnaya culture. Wasn't there more recently a study which said that the Kurgan burial system has it's roots somewhere in Mesopotamia or Northwestern Iran?

Kurgan people were darker skinned than modern people from that area, but not in the way Hunters and Gatherers were (very Dark skin + light eyes) but in the way that they likely had Olive like skin and mixed but mostly brown eyes?

The Hunters and Gatherers were not "dark skin and light eyes", cro-magnons were all brown eyes and dark skins, if I don't do mistake, there are just one example, it's Labrana, and he has just 50% chance to have light eyes, he could have been also brown eyed. In my opinion, the presence of light eyes during the late mesolithic (5000BC) could be easily explained by the presence of IE in Europe (in the east part), and R1b was probably already present in the west part, remember Labrana was supposed to have "scandinavian genes" (sorry I don't remember the term), but he have been found in...Spain. I think to make generality with one case is not judicious imo.

For the recent kurgan peoples, Eurogenes has an interesting article and show some of the problems of the study (sorry I can't post the link), and why they has brown eyes and olive skins:

"Surprisingly, the article doesn't mention Keyser et al. 2009, a very important study which showed that a sample of Kurgan nomads from Bronze and Iron Age South Siberia had frequencies of light hair and eyes comparable to those of present-day Northern and Eastern Europeans. Also worth noting is that the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup among these individuals was R1a, which is today the most frequent haplogroup in Eastern Europe, including Ukraine. What this suggests to me is that the Kurgan cultural horizon was not genetically homogeneous. I suspect that Kurgan groups closer to the Balkans carried significantly higher levels of Near Eastern Neolithic farmer ancestry, and were thus much darker than those in the more temperate northerly regions. However, it seems that at some point, the Neolithic farmer DNA was diluted enough by continuous movements of light pigmented groups from the north and east, possibly made up mostly of males, that there was a major shift in pigmentation traits from Near Eastern-like to Northern European-like across most of Eastern Europe. This scenario actually fits very nicely with the latest on the genetic origins of Europeans."

And if I remember correctly, we don't have the Haplogroup Y of these study, so it's not really complete (they could have been mixed).

For the physical aspect of the original IE, imho, that very clear, between all the examples we have, the Andronovo peoples, the Scythians, the Tocharians, the Yuezhi, and the IE of Europe; well they were all, physically europeans, with light hairs and eyes; we have a big majority of IE with these physical features that the opposites, despite that these IE peoples were geographically separate since 1000 years for some of them (sorry for my english).

Except that, thank you very much for ebAmerican and Mattbir for to post the historical facts by archeologists expert, that don't let the place to speculation imho, and thank you also for Polako for your great posts.

Sile
07-06-14, 12:39
So, you've found a published paper with DNA results from the testing of BMAC people who lived prior to those Andronovo folk? Please tell me the name(s) of the author(s) of this paper and the year it was published, so I can read it.

We both know that no such data exists. And no, the proto-Iranian migration into the BMAC area was not "back-migrations".

Archeology my friend is what counts............DNA is too confusing for even the experts, they do not even know which haplogroups traveled together , they even name haplogroups in complete illogical forms..............as an example, they name some markers ashkenazi when this ashkenazi is only 4000 years old and the DNA that they talk about it is 8000 years old ...is that logical!

read this 2013 finding for Oxus civilizations or as some call it BMAC

http://www.uam.es/otros/cupauam/pdf/Cupauam39/3902.pdf

Alan
07-06-14, 15:16
Impossible, everything is different. archeology, art, way of life, origin/history. Also R1a folks in the Norhern EurAsia were partly Mongoloid as we can see in the first post, full of Y-DNA hg. Q, N1c, and C.
people in BMAC were evolved 'Iranic'/'Aryan' what means that they belonged to much other haplogroups, like Central Asian hg. R2, and West Asian R1a and J2a.


I think you missed the part where Aberdeen posted that you are mixing up Bronze age Andronovo with Bronze Age Altais. Bronze Age Andronovo had 95% West Eurasian Haplogroups and was almost fully West Eurasian autosomally. They were basically West Eurasian. So that Andronovo must have been heavily "East Eurasian" admixed is not an argument at all.

Alan
07-06-14, 15:17
You're twisting the facts.

Aryan is what people back then called Indo Europeans. I am pretty sure there were German-supremacist movements in the late 1800s and early 1900s that claimed Indo European languages originated in Germanic lands and that Germans were full blooded Indo Europeans aka Aryans, while all other Indo European speakers were unpure. Indo Europeans were called Aryans, because that is what early Indo Iranians in India and Iran called themselves. If you go by the literally origin of the name neither Germans or Slaves have anything to do with Aryans.

Adolf Hitler was not African, he was probably genetically a typical Austrian. He belonged to Y DNA E1b1b1-M35 which makes means his paternal lineage in the Upper Palaeolithic was in east Africa but so what. His paternal lineage is probably descended of Neolithic European farmers, but we need to know his subclade to be for sure.

And you are doing it the self way. Aryans WAS Never the self designation for all Indo_Europeans, nor was it a synonym for the Indo European language family. It pretty much became so with racialist ideas becoming more popular in Europe.
Aryan != Indo European

Alan
07-06-14, 15:19
The oldest subclades positive only for M420 are also found in Great Britain and France, does it mean that Kurds migrated from Atlantic cost to Near East?:rolleyes2:

But contrary to Atlantic coast, you can find R* and R1* in all the way between Kurdistan and Kalash. ;)

Aberdeen
07-06-14, 15:31
Archeology my friend is what counts............DNA is too confusing for even the experts, they do not even know which haplogroups traveled together , they even name haplogroups in complete illogical forms..............as an example, they name some markers ashkenazi when this ashkenazi is only 4000 years old and the DNA that they talk about it is 8000 years old ...is that logical!

read this 2013 finding for Oxus civilizations or as some call it BMAC

http://www.uam.es/otros/cupauam/pdf/Cupauam39/3902.pdf

Since you seem to think that DNA can tell us nothing, I'm surprised you're on this forum.

That paper isn't a research paper. It's a review of research papers others have published, and a critique that seems to be arguing that because BMAC wasn't created by IE folk, we can forget about the possibility of IE influence. But the author mentions the militarization of BMAC settlements at the start of the Bronze Age, and the presence of Andronovo style pottery and horses during the Bronze Age. All of which fits with the prevailing idea of BMAC as an existing civilization that was impacted by the Iranian migrations from further north.

Aberdeen
07-06-14, 15:39
But contrary to Atlantic coast, you can find R* and R1* in all the way between Kurdistan and Kalash. ;)

Which proves that R* and R1* either originated in that general area or eventually found its way there. But, given date estimated dates for when R* and R1* emerged, that doesn't really tell us anything about the direction of Bronze Age IE migrations, does it? If the ancestors of the IE folk lived in that area thousands of years prior to the Bronze Age, that doesn't make them proto-IE folk because the time gap is too great. When I argue that Iranian or Proto-Iranians invaded the area that is now modern Iran during the Bronze Age, I'm not precluding the idea that they could have had some very distant cousins still living there. I think it's rather likely, but I also think it's irrelevant in terms of where the Bronze Age IE culture originated from.

Sile
07-06-14, 20:59
Since you seem to think that DNA can tell us nothing, I'm surprised you're on this forum.



DNA is all assumptions, can we ever have a defining accurate result? . Unless you marry archeology into DNA results, you have "fiction"

DNA is best for oneself , to find one's ancestral line,

People never migrated as 1 or 2 DNA types, they migrated in many many types.............no-one has a clue of how many haplotypes there were representing any known ancient culture

Sile
07-06-14, 21:03
I think you missed the part where Aberdeen posted that you are mixing up Bronze age Andronovo with Bronze Age Altais. Bronze Age Andronovo had 95% West Eurasian Haplogroups and was almost fully West Eurasian autosomally. They were basically West Eurasian. So that Andronovo must have been heavily "East Eurasian" admixed is not an argument at all.

define what West Eurasian means for you ..........................is it west-asian and ?

what about the semitic south-west asian group that moved from south to north ..........didn't they get partly absorbed into european mix

Engel
07-06-14, 22:43
define what West Eurasian means for you ..........................is it west-asian and ?

what about the semitic south-west asian group that moved from south to north ..........didn't they get partly absorbed into european mix
The semitic south west Asian groups were the kurds and assyrians

Alan
07-06-14, 22:50
Which proves that R* and R1* either originated in that general area or eventually found its way there. But, given date estimated dates for when R* and R1* emerged, that doesn't really tell us anything about the direction of Bronze Age IE migrations, does it? If the ancestors of the IE folk lived in that area thousands of years prior to the Bronze Age, that doesn't make them proto-IE folk because the time gap is too great. When I argue that Iranian or Proto-Iranians invaded the area that is now modern Iran during the Bronze Age, I'm not precluding the idea that they could have had some very distant cousins still living there. I think it's rather likely, but I also think it's irrelevant in terms of where the Bronze Age IE culture originated from.


Thats what I said, I never denied the possibility that the Indo_Iranian branch has a northern Steppe origin. The Indo_Iranian branch might have originated more northern together with the Balto_Slavic branch but this doesn't exclude the possibility that other branches of Indo European or even the Proto Indo Europeans (from which the Indo_Iranian and Balto_Slavs evolved) came from further South.

My theory is that from Western Asia agroup moved into the Northern Caucasus/European Steppes. from this group the Indo_Iranian,Thracian and Balto_slavic branch might have evolved, while another group moved through the Balkans and became the Illyrians, Phrygian and Celtic branch.

Alan
07-06-14, 23:21
define what West Eurasian means for you ..........................is it west-asian and ?

what about the semitic south-west asian group that moved from south to north ..........didn't they get partly absorbed into european mix


Thats unknown and this is one of my biggest complains about these studies. They simply stated "West Eurasian" or "European like".

European like or even European can mean allot of things based on the definition. For example someone who is 4/10 Caucasus_Gedrosia, 4/10 North European and 2/10 Mediterranean would appear as much European as someone who is 80% North Euro in a scientist eyes. I know that because I have a person in my 23andme list who is half Kurd and half Irish/British and he ends up somewhere between the North and Eastern Europe clusters.

What I am trying to say with this without comparing these individuals to populations of Western Asia as well Europe, they could no way tell where is ancestry came from exactly because a Caucasus_Gedrosia/North Euro would genetically appear as "Central/Eastern European".

matbir
07-06-14, 23:26
But contrary to Atlantic coast, you can find R* and R1* in all the way between Kurdistan and Kalash. ;) So what? Now R* and R1* are assigned to Kurds?
Basic fact is that this haplogroups are too old to assign it to any kind of ethnicity. If you went with Goga's way of thinking, you would conclude that every western Eurasian ethnic group spread from Kurdistan, because the highest diversity of R, P, and maybe even K is there accompanied with high diversity of F. This fact is proof for anything like that.

Alan
07-06-14, 23:45
So what? Now R* and R1* are assigned to Kurds?
Basic fact is that this haplogroups are too old to assign it to any kind of ethnicity. If you went with Goga's way of thinking, you would conclude that every western Eurasian ethnic group spread from Kurdistan, because the highest diversity of R, P, and maybe even K is there accompanied with high diversity of F. This fact is proof for anything like that.
Dear friend don't put words in my mouth which I didn't use. These Haplogroups are allot older than any modern ethnic group. How and where did I claim that these Haplogroups are assigned to Kurds, please elaborate. I have different opinion than Goga in quite a few things. So his words are not my words.

In all of my comments I CLEARLY defined a region between West and SouthCentral Asia as the place of origin. and even in my post above which you quoted: I clearly state from Kurdistan to Kalash. This includes everything in between.

And yes if the highest diversity of a Haplogroup and even it's parental clades are found in a specific region of the world than this is maybe not a prove but very strong sign that this Haplogroup might have evolved there or a place very close. :smile:

You seem to have problems in aknowlediging the possibility of a West Asian origin, I have no problem with an European origin of Indo Europeans I simply think that modern studies are giving us too much reason for an West Asian origin too, that we could simply ignore them.

Fire Haired14
08-06-14, 00:41
Those samples from Mongolia were heavily mixed with East Asians, which explains why most are dark haired with brown eyes.

That is obviously true(because we know what pigmentation ones from the Karasuk region had) but all of the samples were estimated to have majority European ancestry, some over 80% (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/06/ancient-dna-from-bronze-age-altai.html). East Asian admixture can probably explain why Sami and Finno-Urgics in Russia have darker hair and eyes than other northeast Europeans, not isolated ancestry which did not go through the Neolithic-Bronze age depigmentation process(which some have suggested as the answer).