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Goga
29-04-16, 20:31
This will never happen...the UN and USA will "backstab" the kurds like they have always doneKurds are not stupid. (Kurds are children of the Medes. Were the Medes stupid?) We rely on ourselves and nobody else and we will never stop fighting for Kurdistan.

We are betrayed all our lives and still we do exist!

Goga
29-04-16, 20:37
Kurds areas in Turkey and Iran shouldn't be contested now by Kurds. Turkey and Iran are too strong, too nationalistic and too dictatorial at the moment to achieve Kurdish independence there. Any uprising will result only in victims, any killed on both sides, and nothing more.Do you know how many innocent Kurds (unarmed women & children) are killed in Rojava and Shengal? During the Shengal GENOCIDE 10000 (ten thousand) Ezdi Kurds were killed in 1 hour!

Genocide on Ezdi Kurds was a wakeup call. Now we are more stronger and determined for our cause. Ezdi Kurds achieved more in 1 year than in the last 100 years. We have again our army, our fighting force and our region is back under our controle! This is our true revenge and our true victory that we have established Islam-FREE Ezdixan.

Same will happen in Northern Kurdistan. It will become independent even BEFORE Southern Kurdistan! Rojava, Ezdixan, Bakur, Rojhela and then Bashur will be free. Why? Because in Bashur (South Kurdistan) Barzani the corrupt traitor, genocidal Islamo-fascist dictator has power there. And Barzani, Erdogan and Daesh are the same. 3 differen faces of the same coin. For them it is like Kurdish lives are worth nothing.

But the more Kurds get killed, Kurds are becoming more stronger and more determined. As long the last Kurd is on this planet we will fight for our rights and our beloved Kurdistan, Aryana..

PS. Hitler & Stalin were more human than Erdogan.


Kurdistan = PKK. PKK = 50 million Kurdish people. Power to the people!

LABERIA
29-04-16, 21:48
Are you serious. Are you for REAL??? This is the right moment to declare independent Kurdistan. We have waited for 100 years. How long do we have to wait, 1000 years? 5000 years?

The terrorist regime in turkey has to be defeated and there is no time to wait.

Like all authoritarian regimes has to go and are defeated, Turkish Islamo-fascist terrorist regime will be defeated.


Assad, Saddam, Hitler, Stalin are better than Erdogan!

20-25 years.

LeBrok
29-04-16, 21:50
@ Garrick. Generally speaking I agree with your assessment. However we have to keep in mind that most money is invested by business not by government. If government invests only, people will not necessarily come. The best examples are the ghost towns built by Chinese government. The government have built new cities, invested billions of dollars, but nobody came.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=89698)

Goga
29-04-16, 22:01
20-25 years.Why waiting, when we can do it right now?

I know Turks. We have been living next to each other for 1000 years. Turks will never change. Their soul is different to a Kurdish soul. Their Turanid soul will never change.


I believe in Karma (my native Iranic religion believes in Karma in this world.). You know what Karma is?

All the bad things Turks did with Kurds, will turn back to them 10 times worse.


Let's wait and see and don't forget to ENJOY!

Boreas
29-04-16, 23:26
What is a so called fascist 'imperial huge version' of Kurdistan? Kurdistan = Kurdistan. Where the Kurds are majority and where our ancestors lived is Kurdistan. Kurds are native to Kurdistan. All parts of historic Kurdistan, where Kurds were always the majority, are parts of Kurdistan.


You want to land of Meds, Assyrians want to land of Assyria (which include Ezidi historical regions as well) and Armenians want most of part of North Kurdistan :confused2:





I Think some policies of big forces have different weigth,
their justice is according what they get.

Even small countries try to shape their enviroment as much as they can. As a Greek, you know that very well. Zeus left the his first love Themis (goddes of justice) for a beauty from Argos. :crying: There is justice any more


Boreas, you don't understand Yugoslav politics of brotherhood and unity. Yugoslav federation most funds invested in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbian province Kosovo. These areas were very undeveloped but thanks to strong funds these areas were developed rapidly. Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbia and other parts of Yugoslavia due to a lot of better life.


I am totally sure that.



I must notice your answer has disappointed me. Instead give us a reasons why Turkish investments bypass Kurdish regions and why these regions are very undeveloped you speak about that what some other countries do.


If is it what you get it from my post, we shouldn't talk my friend. My point is your statement is so baseless. Firstly I showed that reginal different will be and secondly Turkish investments which didn't bypass Kurdish Regions and how was destroied them by terrorism.



You can notice that I regard Turkey. Politics/strategy of neo-Ottomanism is very serious. In the Balkans, Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia must be very careful to consider all aspects.


Ottomanism is not islamism or turanism as Erdoğan did. It was so humanistic idea which defend that all nations in ottoman empire are equal. I wish a balkan reporter taunt that reality to a AKP minister.



And not only states in the Balkans. In the world scale Turkey and Saudi Arabia trying to lead Islamic world. Turkish president Erdogan claimed that Muslims had reached the Americas in the 12th century, before the European explorer Christopher Columbus did so in 1492. He wants finance large mosque in Cuba:

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/24409656.jpg

And muslim, chinese, viking or other explorers. Americans were discovered by Native Americans



You can notice hypocrisy of Turkish state, Turkey recognized secession of part of Serbian state, but Turkey does not allow the Kurds to have state. Kurds are much greater in numbers and they do not have own state. If someone in Turkey thinks in long term it is possible to apply different yardsticks it is wrong.

Totaly agree, North Cyprus become state and Kosovo, but not Abhazia or Kurdistan . This is hypocrisy. I hope you respect Kosovian as much as Kurds. Other wise, this will be your hypocrisy.

Boreas
29-04-16, 23:31
Their soul is different to a Kurdish soul. Their Turanid soul will never change.


What is being Kurd for you?

A genetic thing, is about religion or language what?

Boreas
29-04-16, 23:38
Actually I don't find Boreas posts unreasonable. The wealth of every region goes together with population density, and population density goes with industrialization and investments, and this correlates with wealth again. By measure of every country Kurdish regions would be less developed than the rest, because they are least populated of all Turkey.
http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw/middle_east_and_asia/turkey_pop_1974.jpg
http://revel.unice.fr/eriep/docannexe/image/3533/img-2.png

Don't waste your time. They have no idea those regions were neighbour with sovviet block in many years. There was no free trade like West Europe did in that region or they have no idea how climate is taugh in there.
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/71570118-turkey-satellite-image-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=G3FJDnadU4GcaTpf%2FfOcMwKpu%2FkxgX9R9xju%2BtxIwh QXmb0G8f5NcpNw%2F7DpVofh

Goga
29-04-16, 23:43
What is being Kurd for you?

A genetic thing, is about religion or language what?Combination of many factors, but mostly a combination of the Kurdish soul (the soul does exist), inherited genes, your native language and consciousness to exist and being a Kurd.

Yetos
30-04-16, 01:40
Even small countries try to shape their enviroment as much as they can. As a Greek, you know that very well. Zeus left the his first love Themis (goddes of justice) for a beauty from Argos. :crying: There is justice any more


what Gods punish is Υβρις,
Υβρις means exagaration, insult of deitys, abuse, contumely, affront, indignity etc,
υβρις is abomination infront eyes of humans and Gods,
But it is human nature to challenge the gods,
as it is human nature to give divine origin to a hero, or a king.
later at middle ages that was replaced by Noble origin by 'blue blood'
but all kings and sultans claim 'ελεω θεου',
by 'God's will', by 'God's mercy', in 'God we trust', 'defender of faith' etc,
so what is the difference if humans make a myth of divine origin (son of Zeus), or kings claim God's mercy, chosen by God?
king David had so many 'goats' (women), king Solomon also,
prophet Mohamet married an old rich (divorced if remember correct) woman when he was young, and a kid when he was old,
cause in some peoples mind Justice can be bought by money, or can be settle by force and violence (rape of peoples will, rape of Themis)
anyway justice is a blind lady, but Nemesis is not,
so Zeus have seen his son Hercules as servant to a king,
David seen his son revolt and dead,
and Mohamet also seen his relatives slain each other,
and when someone is judging with 2 measures and 2 weights is provoking Nemesis, he makes an υβρις
and I do not deny that even in my people exist such men,

so the division of Syria, might be Gods will, and justice, by with same measures we should counter Ukraine Kossovo and Bosnia,
that is what I said, and my written are confess of my challenge to Deitys,

Devils advocate.

Garrick
30-04-16, 01:50
Ottomanism is not islamism or turanism as Erdoğan did. It was so humanistic idea which defend that all nations in ottoman empire are equal. I wish a balkan reporter taunt that reality to a AKP minister.

Ottoman empire was heaven on earth? No. Occupation can not be heaven. Do you really know how Balkans people suffered a lot.

Because it was so humanistic, Bulgarians, Greeks and Serbs launched struggle for liberation.

Bulgarian, Greek and Serbian troops could enter in Istanbul or Constantinople but greater powers didn't allow.

In the picture Bulgarian troops near Adrianople (Edrene):

http://static.bnr.bg/sites/en/lifestyle/historyandreligion/publishingimages/184/12-03-12-16053_2.jpg




https://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/24409656.jpg

And muslim, chinese, viking or other explorers. Americans were discovered by Native Americans

But Turkish president Erdogan says that Muslims came to America before Columbus.

"Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Saturday that Islamic sailors found the New World in 1178 and built a mosque on Cuba - and even said Columbus saw it when he showed up in 1492. His theory - which is not supported by most historians - came to light in a televised speech during an Istanbul summit of Muslims leaders from Latin America."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2836407/Muslims-America-claims-Turkish-president-thinks-Islamic-explorers-beat-Columbus-300-years-built-mosque-Cuba.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2836407/Muslims-America-claims-Turkish-president-thinks-Islamic-explorers-beat-Columbus-300-years-built-mosque-Cuba.html#ixzz47G6PaVjW)

Who were sailors? Turks Seljuqs? They could be in that time, because Ottomans emerged later.


Totaly agree, North Cyprus become state and Kosovo, but not Abhazia or Kurdistan . This is hypocrisy. I hope you respect Kosovian as much as Kurds. Other wise, this will be your hypocrisy.

Yes, North Cyprus begun first. Thanks. Hm, maybe Kosovo Albanians had a role model.

You can see Kosovo and North Cyprus flags are banned in Eurovision Song 2016.

http://cdn3.axs.com/axs/pdfs/FlagPolicyRG.pdf

(http://cdn3.axs.com/axs/pdfs/FlagPolicyRG.pdf)...
About hypocrisy. You threw me into thinking. I will response.

Boreas
30-04-16, 06:13
Ottoman empire was heaven on earth? No. Occupation can not be heaven. Do you really know how Balkans people suffered a lot.

Take a dictinary my friend. Ottomanism is political view which rise after late 19th centuries so example Magnicifient Suleiman's policy is not Ottomanism. It defend secularism and equal citizenship which which destroy classic ottoman millet system.



Because it was so humanistic, Bulgarians, Greeks and Serbs launched struggle for liberation.


As I said, you are missing the issue. A parently, you don't know what is Ottomanism. Neo-Ottomanism is just a twisted nationalist doctrine. But ottomanism is against nationalism.

Let's check the life in Austria-Hungary Empire. They gave the equal citizenship nearly same time with Ottoman Empire(1856-1876).

Article 19 of the 1867 "Basic State Act" (Staatsgrundgesetz), valid only for the Cisleithanian (Austrian) part of Austria-Hungary,[95] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary#cite_note-verfassungen-95) said:

All races of the empire have equal rights, and every race has an inviolable right to the preservation and use of its own nationality and language. The equality of all customary languages ("landesübliche Sprachen") in school, office and public life, is recognized by the state. In those territories in which several races dwell, the public and educational institutions are to be so arranged that, without applying compulsion to learn a second country language ("Landessprache"), each of the races receives the necessary means of education in its own language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary



You can guess Hungarians and Slavic nations life during this German Empire. I am not mentioning life of British and French colonised nations.


Bulgarian, Greek and Serbian troops could enter in Istanbul or Constantinople but greater powers didn't allow.

Same great power also defend small Balkan Countries. I can't see your point.




But Turkish president Erdogan says that Muslims came to America before Columbus.

"Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Saturday that Islamic sailors found the New World in 1178 and built a mosque on Cuba - and even said Columbus saw it when he showed up in 1492. His theory - which is not supported by most historians - came to light in a televised speech during an Istanbul summit of Muslims leaders from Latin America."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2836407/Muslims-America-claims-Turkish-president-thinks-Islamic-explorers-beat-Columbus-300-years-built-mosque-Cuba.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2836407/Muslims-America-claims-Turkish-president-thinks-Islamic-explorers-beat-Columbus-300-years-built-mosque-Cuba.html#ixzz47G6PaVjW)

Who were sailors? Turks Seljuqs? They could be in that time, because Ottomans emerged later.


I told you my thought about the issue. Now I don't see a point to talk about on it.

Pre-Columbus visiting is very common area. American loves theories. It doesn't matter how crazy is are. About Muslim visiting, you can check it from here http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/africanm.htm

Milan
30-04-16, 10:03
Boreas you can not defend anything connected to Neo-Ottomanism of Davutoglu and Erdogan,they make no sense,Garrick is right.

bicicleur
30-04-16, 12:07
it is true, Muslim discovered America before Colombus
next month Erdogan will disclose another truth : Muslims were first on the moon, allready 19 th century

Garrick
30-04-16, 12:52
Take a dictinary my friend. Ottomanism is political view which rise after late 19th centuries so example Magnicifient Suleiman's policy is not Ottomanism. It defend secularism and equal citizenship which which destroy classic ottoman millet system.



As I said, you are missing the issue. A parently, you don't know what is Ottomanism. Neo-Ottomanism is just a twisted nationalist doctrine. But ottomanism is against nationalism.

Let's check the life in Austria-Hungary Empire. They gave the equal citizenship nearly same time with Ottoman Empire(1856-1876).

Article 19 of the 1867 "Basic State Act" (Staatsgrundgesetz), valid only for the Cisleithanian (Austrian) part of Austria-Hungary,[95] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary#cite_note-verfassungen-95) said:
All races of the empire have equal rights, and every race has an inviolable right to the preservation and use of its own nationality and language. The equality of all customary languages ("landesübliche Sprachen") in school, office and public life, is recognized by the state. In those territories in which several races dwell, the public and educational institutions are to be so arranged that, without applying compulsion to learn a second country language ("Landessprache"), each of the races receives the necessary means of education in its own language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary




You can guess Hungarians and Slavic nations life during this German Empire. I am not mentioning life of British and French colonised nations.

My Turkish friend, yes I know for liberal, multicultural face of Ottomanism or new version neo-Ottomanism promoted of Davitoglu et al. But Western theorists highlight three face of neo-Ottomanism, and first two are much more important: 1) imperialistic image of neo-Ottomanism, Ottoman empire as apex of civilization and 2) Islamic image of neo-Ottomanism, Ottoman empire as an Islamic empire. Third, multicultural image, hardly will pass next to first two, in other words Christian and Atheist Balkan people, who were 500 years under Ottoman occupation, are much more interested in first two images. Knowing taqiyya principle, third image looks up as makeup. First two faces are real.

I respect Ataturk heritage in Turkey and secularism which he introduced (although Turkish actions towards Greeks, Armenians and Assirians are unacceptable). But today we see grandiose changes in Turkey which fundamentally change the conditions imposed after 1924 when Caliphate was officialy abolished and created modern Turkish state.


Same great power also defend small Balkan Countries. I can't see your point.

It is question. Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia struggled, and relying mainly on its own forces, won their freedom. Fair was to liberate the whole Balkans, and not to stop by explicit request of greater powers and to establish a boundary of separation at Adrianople (Edrene).


I told you my thought about the issue. Now I don't see a point to talk about on it.

Pre-Columbus visiting is very common area. American loves theories. It doesn't matter how crazy is are. About Muslim visiting, you can check it from here http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/africanm.htm


You have good American article about mosques who Erdogan (Turkey) wants built all over the world and it is in neo-Ottoman agenda.

Mosque Building as Neo-Ottoman Soft Diplomacy

http://www.turkeyagenda.com/mosque-building-as-neo-ottoman-soft-diplomacy-2846.html (http://www.turkeyagenda.com/mosque-building-as-neo-ottoman-soft-diplomacy-2846.html)

(quote)
But, why a country like Turkey would be willing to build a mosque in countries ranging from Kyrgyzstan to Somalia, or in a country as ‘alien’ as Cuba? Could it be the case that as opposed to being a typical vote maximizing centrist political party that gradually converges to and abides by the “median voter rule”, AKP’s mosque building diplomacy is part of its neo-ottoman aspirations?
(end of quote)

(quote)
However, Diyanet- the Turkish nationalized body of Islamic affairs is currently involved in the construction of 18 big mosques in about a dozen countries, including the United States, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Albania, the Philippines, the United Kingdom, Cuba, Haiti, Palestine, Somalia, Bulgaria, Albania, and Greece. The Diyanet is also helping to repair mosques abroad that have been damaged by war. (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/02/turkey-mosque-building-soft-power.html)
(end of quote)

(quote)
In the Balkans, Turkey is interested in re-establishing mosques that have been withered away over the past two centuries in the Bulgarian border city of Didymotycho, the island of Rhodes and Thessaloniki -the second largest city in Greece which is close to the Balkan neighbors. This policy is closely related to the pan-Balkan planning.
(http://www.phantis.com/blogs/ioannis-michaletos/sample-neo-ottomanism-and-soft-power)(end of quote)

(quote)
If all these are telling anything, it is saying we might need not to wait half a century to witness the reemergence of the Ottomans once again from exactly where it was abolished.
(end of quote)
...

If we know what's happening it is easier to sympathize with Kurds and understand their views.

Milan
30-04-16, 13:56
Erdogan as Sultan only miss the Janissaries from the Balkans to become one lol,but they prove to be greatest threat to the emperor like the Praetorian guard,they also could change Sultans trough palace coups,or he could finish like Osman the second when he closed their coffee shops,gathering points,started planing to create ethnic turk army,but pitty they imprisoned him and strangle him with a bowstring.

DuPidh
30-04-16, 13:58
My Turkish friend, yes I know for liberal, multicultural face of Ottomanism or new version neo-Ottomanism promoted of Davitoglu et al. But Western theorists highlight three face of neo-Ottomanism, and first two are much more important: 1) imperialistic image of neo-Ottomanism, Ottoman empire as apex of civilization and 2) Islamic image of neo-Ottomanism, Ottoman empire as an Islamic empire. Third, multicultural image, hardly will pass next to first two, in other words Christian and Atheist Balkan people, who were 500 years under Ottoman occupation, are much more interested in first two images. Knowing taqiyya principle, third image looks up as makeup. First two faces are real.

I respect Ataturk heritage in Turkey and secularism which he introduced (although Turkish actions towards Greeks, Armenians and Assirians are unacceptable). But today we see grandiose changes in Turkey which fundamentally change the conditions imposed after 1924 when Caliphate was officialy abolished and created modern Turkish state.



It is question. Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia struggled, and relying mainly on its own forces, won their freedom. Fair was to liberate the whole Balkans, and not to stop by explicit request of greater powers and to establish a boundary of separation at Adrianople (Edrene).




You have good American article about mosques who Erdogan (Turkey) wants built all over the world and it is in neo-Ottoman agenda.

Mosque Building as Neo-Ottoman Soft Diplomacy

http://www.turkeyagenda.com/mosque-building-as-neo-ottoman-soft-diplomacy-2846.html (http://www.turkeyagenda.com/mosque-building-as-neo-ottoman-soft-diplomacy-2846.html)

(quote)
But, why a country like Turkey would be willing to build a mosque in countries ranging from Kyrgyzstan to Somalia, or in a country as ‘alien’ as Cuba? Could it be the case that as opposed to being a typical vote maximizing centrist political party that gradually converges to and abides by the “median voter rule”, AKP’s mosque building diplomacy is part of its neo-ottoman aspirations?
(end of quote)

(quote)
However, Diyanet- the Turkish nationalized body of Islamic affairs is currently involved in the construction of 18 big mosques in about a dozen countries, including the United States, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Albania, the Philippines, the United Kingdom, Cuba, Haiti, Palestine, Somalia, Bulgaria, Albania, and Greece. The Diyanet is also helping to repair mosques abroad that have been damaged by war. (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/02/turkey-mosque-building-soft-power.html)
(end of quote)

(quote)
In the Balkans, Turkey is interested in re-establishing mosques that have been withered away over the past two centuries in the Bulgarian border city of Didymotycho, the island of Rhodes and Thessaloniki -the second largest city in Greece which is close to the Balkan neighbors. This policy is closely related to the pan-Balkan planning.
(http://www.phantis.com/blogs/ioannis-michaletos/sample-neo-ottomanism-and-soft-power)(end of quote)

(quote)
If all these are telling anything, it is saying we might need not to wait half a century to witness the reemergence of the Ottomans once again from exactly where it was abolished.
(end of quote)
...

If we know what's happening it is easier to sympathize with Kurds and understand their views.

You consume a lot of Serbian government propaganda. The superiority of Serbs that your government's propaganda wants you to believe is a lie. Serbs without Russian support would still have been Ottomans, contrary what your government wants you to believe that you were liberated on your own.
Turkey is an important country in middle east and as such its weight is felt. In Serbia the weight of Turkey is felt in the form of fear since if Turkey comes back Serbs will be sent to Russia, in other Muslim Balkan countries Turkeys presence is welcomed since they bring needed investments.
Its projected that Turkeys population will reach 100 million soon, which means coupled with modernization of Turkey it can no longer ignored. Russia's influence and power on the other hand will continue to decline as its borders are threatened by rising China, Islamic population of Russia etc..
Kurds need to have autonomy and democratic life...

Milan
30-04-16, 14:19
There you go Dupidh with the superiority of Muslim Osmanli,must be someone discused prior,Ottoman dissolution was inevitable nobody obeyed the Sultan anymore,he had no Janissaries,the governer of Balkans like Pasvanoglu made war with him acted like independent,minted his own coins same happened in many different regions,the newly countries were created out of the previosly subjected population with consciousness of the past and fight for freedom,present Turkey is not the same with Ottomans,Ottoman empire was much different, present Turkey is legacy of Kemal Ataturk and they should keep that,instead to imagine and to dream some glory of past...

Yetos
30-04-16, 14:21
In Serbia the weight of Turkey is felt in the form of fear since if Turkey comes back Serbs will be sent to Russia,

And as an Albanian you would love to see that,
perhaps you will join Turkish forces, if you did not yet.

Garrick
30-04-16, 14:50
You consume a lot of Serbian government propaganda. The superiority of Serbs that your government's propaganda wants you to believe is a lie. Serbs without Russian support would still have been Ottomans, contrary what your government wants you to believe that you were liberated on your own.
Turkey is an important country in middle east and as such its weight is felt. In Serbia the weight of Turkey is felt in the form of fear since if Turkey comes back Serbs will be sent to Russia, in other Muslim Balkan countries Turkeys presence is welcomed since they bring needed investments.
Its projected that Turkeys population will reach 100 million soon, which means coupled with modernization of Turkey it can no longer ignored. Russia's influence and power on the other hand will continue to decline as its borders are threatened by rising China, Islamic population of Russia etc..
Kurds need to have autonomy and democratic life...

American article, neo-Ottomans agenda and Turkish strive to building of mosques in Cuba, Philippines, Haiti, Somalia, Bulgaria etc. is Serbian government propaganda???

Erdogan statement that Muslims arrived before Columbus is Serbian government propaganda???

Buliding the greatest mosque in the Balkans in Albania funded by Turkey is Serbian government propaganda???

Do you know what propaganda means?

"Ideas or statements that are false and that are spread in order to help a cause, a political leader."

You really think that this is false?

http://news.sky.com/story/1426406/turkeys-erdogan-plans-a-mosque-in-cuba

And Sky News conducting "Serbian propaganda."
...

I only give my own attitudes, I don't care for government and political parties.

Maybe you as Albanian can hardly understand that in Serbia everyone has own opinion, and it can be very different from an official political stance.
...

You say that over 40 million Kurds should have political autonomy. In the same time you think that it is right that 4,4 million Albanians should have two own countries (even more if we see wishes for Illyrida, Chamuria etc.). What about Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh, or dozens other examples on the world.
...

I'm European oriented. Yes, in Serbia there are people who are Russian oriented. They say to us how we can be European oriented when European countries bombed Serbia. Yes, it is not easy for us to respond them, but we who love Europe convince that it was error and it will not happen again.

LABERIA
30-04-16, 15:00
And as an Albanian you would love to see that,
perhaps you will join Turkish forces, if you did not yet.
Somebody who read this page of this thread will conclude that all this is not real.I expressed my opinion, the responsability is of the mods. Now you can not resist Yetos without one of your funny posts.
Yetos, do you know that your PM, Tsipuros, is considered in Greece and all around the world as a puppet of Erdoğan?

Yetos
30-04-16, 16:16
Somebody who read this page of this thread will conclude that all this is not real.I expressed my opinion, the responsability is of the mods. Now you can not resist Yetos without one of your funny posts.
Yetos, do you know that your PM, Tsipuros, is considered in Greece and all around the world as a puppet of Erdoğan?

are you DuPidh? are you his captain? or he is your colonel?
anyway I think you love the same that DuPidh said,



Turkey is an important country in middle east and as such its weight is felt. In Serbia the weight of Turkey is felt in the form of fear since if Turkey comes back Serbs will be sent to Russia, in other Muslim Balkan countries Turkeys presence is welcomed since they bring needed investments.
Its projected that Turkeys population will reach 100 million soon, which means coupled with modernization of Turkey it can no longer ignored. Russia's influence and power on the other hand will continue to decline as its borders are threatened by rising China, Islamic population of Russia etc..


especially the bold one,

PS
makes me wonder who is Atheist? and who claims and cheers that his country is Atheistic due to ex-communist president.

drop your mask, face truth.
except if you want to be mercenairie :thinking:
shooting kafirs and kidnap their daughters.
it is a job, very favorite to 'Muslim Balkan countries' who want return of Suleiman the magnificent,
Perhaps you will find a job as yenicharie.

PS2
perhaps my Prime Minister is a puppet of Erdoghan,
I do not care, But in this war that is coming we will not take part,
on the other hand my people revolt many times against Ottomans and Turks, and we had wins and defeats,
at least we fought for our freedom,
what about you? did you revolt Ottoman empire?

LABERIA
30-04-16, 16:38
are you DuPidh? are you his captain? or he is your colonel?
anyway I think you love the same that DuPidh said,



especially the bold one,

PS
makes me wonder who is Atheist? and who claims and cheers that his country is Atheistic due to ex-communist president.

drop your mask, face truth.
except if you want to be mercenairie :thinking:
shooting kafirs and kidnap their daughters.
it is a job, very favorite to 'Muslim Balkan countries' who want return of Suleiman the magnificent,
Perhaps you will find a job as yenicharie.

Yetos, not only your PM, Tsipuro, is a puppet of Erdoğan, but your country is the only responsabile for the crisis of emigrants and for this situation of islamic terrorism in Europe. Your country created this terribile situation in our Continent.
BTW, i want what Dupidh want, but you can not understand what we want.

P. S.
What is yenichaire? Is this something related to the chair? And who is Kantafi?

Garrick
30-04-16, 21:36
In Serbia the weight of Turkey is felt in the form of fear since if Turkey comes back Serbs will be sent to Russia

Fear is only for weak.

And do you know what you wrote. Such of manner of speech is extremely wrong. Replace Turkey with country that you mentioned, and the Serbs with Albanians, and you wrote about returning to the Caucasus.
...

I regard Turkey is quite modernized. Boreas understood me very well and I and he will continue constructive discussion.

Yetos
30-04-16, 22:11
Yetos, not only your PM, Tsipuro, is a puppet of Erdoğan, but your country is the only responsabile for the crisis of emigrants and for this situation of islamic terrorism in Europe. Your country created this terribile situation in our Continent.
BTW, i want what Dupidh want, but you can not understand what we want.

P. S.

What is yenichaire? Is this something related to the chair? And who is Kantafi?


now you make humor right?

well these are your words



Wake, Albanian, from your slumber,
Let us, brothers, swear in common
And not look to church or mosque,
The Albanian's faith is Albanianism!
Third, after the creation of the Albanian state, the King of Albania Zog I attended a secular and very balanced policy regarding the religions in Albania. There are 4 religion in Albania. Musslim Suni, Bektashi, Catholics and Orthodox. I think that today's politicians in Europe have what they learn from the way that King Zog managed the religions and particularly Islam. And latter arrived the communist regime. And Albania became the first Atheist country in the world. In the Constitution of the People's Socialist Republic of Albania of year 1976:
Article 37
The state recognizes no religion whatever and supports atheist propaganda for the purpose of inculcating the scientific materialist world outlook in people.



Now what turned you on when I said to your officer




Turkey is an important country in middle east and as such its weight is felt. In Serbia the weight of Turkey is felt in the form of fear since if Turkey comes back Serbs will be sent to Russia, in other Muslim Balkan countries Turkeys presence is welcomed since they bring needed investments.
Its projected that Turkeys population will reach 100 million soon, which means coupled with modernization of Turkey it can no longer ignored. Russia's influence and power on the other hand will continue to decline as its borders are threatened by rising China, Islamic population of Russia etc..


tell us Laberia

who are these other Muslim countries?
ok Bosnia is One, But which are the Others?

now decide laberia
are you an atheist?
is Albania an Atheist country as you said?
or it is 'other muslim countries of Balkans'?

to take you serious me and others of the forum, you must decide,
and not bomb us with propaganda

PS
My country is like shit today, but


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UfAL9f74I

LABERIA
30-04-16, 22:34
I do not care, But in this war that is coming we will not take part,

Typical lazy greek. An Empire as gift:
Elder Paisios - The Prophecies about Constantinople (English subs)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4qpT_ow3sc


on the other hand my people revolt many times against Ottomans and Turks, and we had wins and defeats,
at least we fought for our freedom,
what about you? did you revolt Ottoman empire?



http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/04/Vladimir-Putin-laugh-gif.gif?gs=a

LABERIA
30-04-16, 22:41
PS
My country is like shit today, but



Of course, because we are not at our best. When Albania is good than Greece is also good.

Yetos
30-04-16, 23:20
Of course, because we are not at our best. When Albania is good than Greece is also good.

oh really? so when Albania is Atheist is also Greek?

or When Greek is religious Albania is searching ISLAM DEFENDER ERDOGAN the MIGHTY?
Oh I forgot, Albanians who were good and rich when Ottomans and never revolt to Turks, and served them as 'soldiers'


BUT YOU STILL AVOID TO ANSWER INFRONT OF FORUM



now you make humor right?

well these are your words



Wake, Albanian, from your slumber,
Let us, brothers, swear in common
And not look to church or mosque,
The Albanian's faith is Albanianism!
Third, after the creation of the Albanian state, the King of Albania Zog I attended a secular and very balanced policy regarding the religions in Albania. There are 4 religion in Albania. Musslim Suni, Bektashi, Catholics and Orthodox. I think that today's politicians in Europe have what they learn from the way that King Zog managed the religions and particularly Islam. And latter arrived the communist regime. And Albania became the first Atheist country in the world. In the Constitution of the People's Socialist Republic of Albania of year 1976:
Article 37
The state recognizes no religion whatever and supports atheist propaganda for the purpose of inculcating the scientific materialist world outlook in people.



Now what turned you on when I said to your officer




Turkey is an important country in middle east and as such its weight is felt. In Serbia the weight of Turkey is felt in the form of fear since if Turkey comes back Serbs will be sent to Russia, in other Muslim Balkan countries Turkeys presence is welcomed since they bring needed investments.
Its projected that Turkeys population will reach 100 million soon, which means coupled with modernization of Turkey it can no longer ignored. Russia's influence and power on the other hand will continue to decline as its borders are threatened by rising China, Islamic population of Russia etc..


tell us Laberia

who are these other Muslim countries?
ok Bosnia is One, But which are the Others?

now decide laberia
are you an atheist?
is Albania an Atheist country as you said?
or it is 'other muslim countries of Balkans'?

to take you serious me and others of the forum, you must decide,
and not bomb us with propaganda

PS
My country is like shit today, but


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UfAL9f74I


PS2
by making jokes do not think that5 people laugh or accept what you say,


PS3

I am not christian, neither Muslim,
so what ever religious link you post simply you make things worse to you,
you just feel guilty, colonel, not me, i am just a weak peasant,

Boreas
01-05-16, 00:25
Boreas you can not defend anything connected to Neo-Ottomanism of Davutoglu and Erdogan,they make no sense,Garrick is right.

İs that what you get from my post???

All I said is

Their Neo-Ottomanism was not related with Ottomanism, even I called it islamism and turanism. I called it twisted nationalist doctine and I wrote that Ottomanism was not releated with nationalism

"Ottomanism is not islamism or turanism as Erdoğan did."
"Neo-Ottomanism is just a twisted nationalist doctrine. But ottomanism is against nationalism. "

Which part makes you think that I am defending the Neo-Ottomanism of Davutoglu and Erdogan?


Garrick

Think the your history like,

Albanians as Kurds,

Croatians as Greeks

Bosnians as Armenians

Serbs as Turks

Serbs are the only balkan nation who can improve emphaty with Turks.



It is question. Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia struggled, and relying mainly on its own forces, won their freedom.


Let's pass the imaginary story of winning freedom with own forces.



You have good American article about mosques who Erdogan (Turkey) wants built all over the world and it is in neo-Ottoman agenda.


Erdogan is islamist. Did you learn it new? As we know how much lazy Christian Balkan nations for restoring Ottoman herritage which they have, Turkey is doing that job and that state orgatisation is TİKA and built/restore historical Ottoman buildings and built new things if that community need it such as idea of building Mosque in Cuba etc.

Even the buy reindeers for some Turkic people in Siberia also they are restoring church as well.
http://www.tika.gov.tr/en/news/tika_contributes_to_the_church_of_the_nativity's_r estoration-21108

Here is Serbia
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/turkey-breathes-new-life-into-serbia-s-ottoman-relics

But AKP mosque love is in different level, they are rebuilting every single old mosque


This area was concert area in the summer

http://www.islamveihsan.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/rumeli-2.JPG.jpeghttp://cdn.ucankus.com/img/imgyeni/brook/hisar_konser.bmp

Thanks Erdogan, now he have another mosque which we need it.
http://static.birgun.net/resim/haber-detay-resim/2015/07/29/tiyatro-sahnesine-mescit-insa-etmek-60246-5.jpg

Milan
01-05-16, 01:04
İs that what you get from my post???

All I said is

Their Neo-Ottomanism was not related with Ottomanism, even I called it islamism and turanism. I called it twisted nationalist doctine and I wrote that Ottomanism was not releated with nationalism

"Ottomanism is not islamism or turanism as Erdoğan did."
"Neo-Ottomanism is just a twisted nationalist doctrine. But ottomanism is against nationalism. "

Which part makes you think that I am defending the Neo-Ottomanism of Davutoglu and Erdogan?


I misunderstood you.

Garrick
01-05-16, 01:22
now you make humor right?

well these are your words





Now what turned you on when I said to your officer




tell us Laberia

who are these other Muslim countries?
ok Bosnia is One, But which are the Others?

now decide laberia
are you an atheist?
is Albania an Atheist country as you said?
or it is 'other muslim countries of Balkans'?

to take you serious me and others of the forum, you must decide,
and not bomb us with propaganda

PS
My country is like shit today, but


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UfAL9f74I

In Bosnia and Herzegovina is 48% Muslims (33% Orthodox Christians, 15% Catholic Christians and 4%: Christian protestants, Atheists and others).

Muslims by country in Balkans

Albania 70%

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Albania-RELIGIONS.html

Bosnia and Herzegovina 48%

Macedonia (ex YU) 33%

Montenegro 15%

Bulgaria 12%
...

If we watch Serbia without Kosovo it is 3% Muslims, including Kosovo about 19%, in Kosovo non recognized territory by United Nations live 94% Muslims (92% Muslim Albanians).

Croatia 1,5%.

I don't know how many Muslims live in Greece, probably 1%.
...

For Muslim countries which he mentioned, he probably thought about Albania, and maybe Kosovo. In Bosnia and Herzegovina Islam is not dominant religion, it is dominant in BH Federation where live 70% Muslims, but not in Republic of Srpska, in Republic of Srpska live 10% Muslims. Maybe he though about BH Federation (51% of territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina).

Garrick
01-05-16, 03:02
Garrick

Think the your history like,

Albanians as Kurds,

Croatians as Greeks

Bosnians as Armenians

Serbs as Turks

Serbs are the only balkan nation who can improve emphaty with Turks.



Let's pass the imaginary story of winning freedom with own forces.



Erdogan is islamist. Did you learn it new? As we know how much lazy Christian Balkan nations for restoring Ottoman herritage which they have, Turkey is doing that job and that state orgatisation is TİKA and built/restore historical Ottoman buildings and built new things if that community need it such as idea of building Mosque in Cuba etc.

Even the buy reindeers for some Turkic people in Siberia also they are restoring church as well.
http://www.tika.gov.tr/en/news/tika_contributes_to_the_church_of_the_nativity's_r estoration-21108 (http://www.tika.gov.tr/en/news/tika_contributes_to_the_church_of_the_nativity%27s _restoration-21108)

Here is Serbia
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/turkey-breathes-new-life-into-serbia-s-ottoman-relics

But AKP mosque love is in different level, they are rebuilting every single old mosque


This area was concert area in the summer

http://www.islamveihsan.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/rumeli-2.JPG.jpeghttp://cdn.ucankus.com/img/imgyeni/brook/hisar_konser.bmp

Thanks Erdogan, now he have another mosque which we need it.
http://static.birgun.net/resim/haber-detay-resim/2015/07/29/tiyatro-sahnesine-mescit-insa-etmek-60246-5.jpg

You know, king Alexander and Kemal pasha Ataturk were friends.

http://www.angelfire.com/ok5/oznoyan64/images/ataalex.jpg

I have nothing against secular Turkey. I have nothing against Islamic Turkey if Turkish nation embrace Islamic state and Sharia law. It is Turkish issue. But if Turkish nation again want to restore Ottoman empire in the Balkans and expanding Caliphate it is completely different story. 500 years under Ottomans is too long. For example Serbia in Middle age was developed as England and Scandinavian countries. Unfortunately countries can't choose conquerors.

If Erdogan really think to restore Caliphate including Balkans he should read Montenigrin prince-bishop, and poet and philosopher Petar Petrovic Njegos:

"Walnut in a shell is a curious fruit: you won’t break it but will break your teeth."

People of Montenego were very brave.
...

Why Thessaloniki and Rhodes island need mosques? It is much better that invesments flow into business or something useful.
...

Hastly recognition Serbian province of Kosovo by Turkey was mistake. You can now look at near, Caucasus, where there are a more self-proclamed territories as Kosovo, and where near Turkey is again war.
...

We don't know in which direction will flow restoration Ottoman. Erdogan has over 50% seats in Parliament. He is popular. We see that these days Turkey Parliament speaker Mr. Ismail Kahraman claimed: "Turkey, an overwhelmingly Muslim country, should have a constitution based on Islam rather than a secular constitution". Is it have connection with Ottoman agenda? But if you want again Sharia law and eliminating Ataturk secular state it is your thing.
...

And I promised you why Kurdish issue is different from Kosovo, or Abkhazia, or dozens self-proclamed territories.

Because Kurds are nation over 40 milion inhabitants. Kurds are the largest nation in the world without own state. Greater powers due their interests always bypassed to solve Kurdish issue. And it cannot be indefinitely. Among other reasons it is a question of justice Kurds have own state.

Boreas
01-05-16, 13:52
You know, king Alexander and Kemal pasha Ataturk were friends.

I didn't know, but not a wierd thing
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Entente_balkanique_%28timbre_roumain%29.jpg



I have nothing against secular Turkey.


You have fallen love with an illusion. Of course Ottoman Empire was not following Copenhagen criteria. But as I posted it before Ottoman Empire gave the equal citizenship nearly same time with Aus-Hun Empire. Ottoman Empire behaved similary with other coeval Empires. Spain is Catholic but they also industrized lately as Ottomans. Maybe the reason is Ottoman Empire.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/althistory/images/b/bc/OTL_Europe_Industrial_Revolution_Map.png/revision/latest?cb=20111124002355

and Ataturk made things which can't be questionable with today's perspective.

After the Assyrians riot, they forced to go Iraq
Ataturk didn't use persuaded rooms for the Kurd's riots

Ataturk gave the right to women be as men. Turkey gave the voting right before France, thanks to him and first female army pilot was Turk. But she bombed Turkish cities in the command of Ataturk


Turks should accept Christian Heritage on their land and see how much feed Ottoman culture from Byzantine. Balkan nations should accept Ottoman as part of their heritage



Montenigrin prince-bishop, and poet and philosopher Petar Petrovic Njegos:

"Walnut in a shell is a curious fruit: you won’t break it but will break your teeth."

People of Montenego were very brave.


Albanians are also brave,

Maybe an Albanian friend can find English version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE4vcRHxnAg

After a rebuilt mosque openning (of course Turkey did), Erdogan have wantted something form Albanian authorities and in shortly, that Albanian guy is saying "thank for the mosque but we are not your vassal" :great:



...
Why Thessaloniki and Rhodes island need mosques? It is much better that invesments flow into business or something useful.
...


They shoudn't suppose to be an active mosque. As we did, restorate it then use different purpose. This is cultural center, million times better then a glazing new design building

http://www.tarkem.com.tr/uploads/images/4_9.jpg

Do you prefer this???
http://img.haberler.com/haber/573/ayavukla-kilisesi-sanat-merkezi-oluyor_o.jpg

Even now, Christians can come once, twice a year for holiday, and make a ceremony.

Shut up, take the Turks money and give those raze building to society :grin:



We don't know in which direction will flow restoration Ottoman. Erdogan has over 50% seats in Parliament. He is popular. We see that these days Turkey Parliament speaker Mr. Ismail Kahraman claimed: "Turkey, an overwhelmingly Muslim country, should have a constitution based on Islam rather than a secular constitution". Is it have connection with Ottoman agenda? But if you want again Sharia law and eliminating Ataturk secular state it is your thing.


I prefer to split.



And I promised you why Kurdish issue is different from Kosovo, or Abkhazia, or dozens self-proclamed territories.


Please explain. Why Montenegro can be a state but Kosovo not? Do you call Russia as hypocrite too? They didn't support Kosovo but support Abkhazia



Because Kurds are nation over 40 milion inhabitants. Kurds are the largest nation in the world without own state. Greater powers due their interests always bypassed to solve Kurdish issue. And it cannot be indefinitely. Among other reasons it is a question of justice Kurds have own state.


I didn't say, I am not supporting Kurdish state. Even I called my self micro-nationalist. My against the perspective of which praise the violence.

Yetos
01-05-16, 15:50
just nothing, bad click

Garrick
01-05-16, 15:57
I didn't know, but not a wierd thing
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Entente_balkanique_%28timbre_roumain%29.jpg



You have fallen love with an illusion. Of course Ottoman Empire was not following Copenhagen criteria. But as I posted it before Ottoman Empire gave the equal citizenship nearly same time with Aus-Hun Empire. Ottoman Empire behaved similary with other coeval Empires. Spain is Catholic but they also industrized lately as Ottomans. Maybe the reason is Ottoman Empire.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/althistory/images/b/bc/OTL_Europe_Industrial_Revolution_Map.png/revision/latest?cb=20111124002355

and Ataturk made things which can't be questionable with today's perspective.

After the Assyrians riot, they forced to go Iraq
Ataturk didn't use persuaded rooms for the Kurd's riots

Ataturk gave the right to women be as men. Turkey gave the voting right before France, thanks to him and first female army pilot was Turk. But she bombed Turkish cities in the command of Ataturk


Turks should accept Christian Heritage on their land and see how much feed Ottoman culture from Byzantine. Balkan nations should accept Ottoman as part of their heritage



Albanians are also brave,

Maybe an Albanian friend can find English version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE4vcRHxnAg

After a rebuilt mosque openning (of course Turkey did), Erdogan have wantted something form Albanian authorities and in shortly, that Albanian guy is saying "thank for the mosque but we are not your vassal" http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/great.gif



They shoudn't suppose to be an active mosque. As we did, restorate it then use different purpose. This is cultural center, million times better then a glazing new design building

http://www.tarkem.com.tr/uploads/images/4_9.jpg

Do you prefer this???
http://img.haberler.com/haber/573/ayavukla-kilisesi-sanat-merkezi-oluyor_o.jpg

Even now, Christians can come once, twice a year for holiday, and make a ceremony.

Shut up, take the Turks money and give those raze building to society http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.png



I prefer to split.



Please explain. Why Montenegro can be a state but Kosovo not? Do you call Russia as hypocrite too? They didn't support Kosovo but support Abkhazia



I didn't say, I am not supporting Kurdish state. Even I called my self micro-nationalist. My against the perspective of which praise the violence.

Very constructive discussion.

All what about you speak have link with Islamic supremacy, (consciously or unconsciously) and you know I have nothing against Islam, it is big religion and I always spoke about dialogue.

In last 100 years, in Turkey and wider ex Ottoman region, Balkans, Caucasus and Middle East (Islamic supremacy spreading).

Armenian Genocide in Turkey lasted from 1915 till 1923. Armenians were 2 million people in 1915, for eight years Armenian population in Turkey disappeared. According Armenian sources 1,5 million people perished.

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/genocide.html

Assyrian sources (Assyrian Christians) speak about 100,000 Assyrian victims.

After First World War was exodus of Greek nation from Turkey. Numerous ships were packed with Greek people, they could not receive all peoples who fled, and it is not known how many people were victims.

http://greek-genocide.net/index.php/bibliography/newspapers/162-9-dec-1922-the-expelled-greeks

Turkish invasion of Cyprus is newer story. Greeks were absolute majority of the whole island with over 80% population. And Turkish troops enter in island, captured of 40% of territory and realized ethnic cleaning. Republic of Northern Cyprus is one of self-proclaimed territories.

How much Turkey helped other movements and states. Southern of Turkey different Christian nations and communities are extinct. It is big civilization tragedy.

In the Caucasus Turkey always supported Muslim sides against Christians. And now in conflict between Azerbejan and Nagorno-Karabakh. It is your hypocrisy that Nagorno-Karabakh cannot have own state but Kosovo can.

In the Balkans Turkey supported Muslim Albanians and ethnic cleaning non-Muslims. And you're not right. Montenegro was republic in Yugoslav federation, and Montenegro could be own state, AP Kosovo and Metohija was Serbian province, not republic, and it could not be independent.

You have a lot of self-proclaimed territories after Kosovo, and what you do, Muslim self-proclaimed territories from Secular Christian/Atheist states can be own states but other self-proclaimed territories cannot be own states. It is Islamic supremacy.

According your logic if any territory has Muslim majority it should be own state. If someone can follow your logic every Muslim no-go zone in the world should be own state.

Of course we can discuss, this is very constructive, and I will point you where you make mistakes about Kurdish economy, you will surprise how Kurdish economy can be successful.

Boreas
02-05-16, 13:20
All what about you speak have link with Islamic supremacy, (consciously or unconsciously) and you know I have nothing against Islam, it is big religion and I always spoke about dialogue.


I have no problem with Islam too, the religion section in my national ID is empty.




Armenian Genocide in Turkey lasted from 1915 till 1923. Armenians were 2 million people in 1915, for eight years Armenian population in Turkey disappeared. According Armenian sources 1,5 million people perished.
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/genocide.html

Assyrian sources (Assyrian Christians) speak about 100,000 Assyrian victims.

After First World War was exodus of Greek nation from Turkey. Numerous ships were packed with Greek people, they could not receive all peoples who fled, and it is not known how many people were victims.

http://greek-genocide.net/index.php/bibliography/newspapers/162-9-dec-1922-the-expelled-greeks


Have you ever read the book of first preminister of Armenia, I suggest you tu read. He is mentioning Armenian getting arming in 1914 autumn and Russian effects on it.

You know the Christians losts very well, do you know that Greece punished to pay war reparations after the war for what they did when Greek army marched to Ankara?

Balkans and Caucausia lost it's Muslim children, Anatolia lost Christian children.



Turkish invasion of Cyprus is newer story. Greeks were absolute majority of the whole island with over 80% population. And Turkish troops enter in island, captured of 40% of territory and realized ethnic cleaning. Republic of Northern Cyprus is one of self-proclaimed territories.


Study this subject my friend,

Greece was under the millitary regime and their tried to annex Island with using puppet Cyprus military coup
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_Cypriot_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

By the way in that Turkish goverment was leftist-socialist, so occupation was the last choice for Turkey.




How much Turkey helped other movements and states. Southern of Turkey different Christian nations and communities are extinct. It is big civilization tragedy.

In the Caucasus Turkey always supported Muslim sides against Christians. And now in conflict between Azerbejan and Nagorno-Karabakh. It is your hypocrisy that Nagorno-Karabakh cannot have own state but Kosovo can.


Same as Why Christians care Christians, more then Muslims. People should give up to that primitive protectionism which base that protect who is familiar to you.



Montenegro was republic in Yugoslav federation, and Montenegro could be own state, AP Kosovo and Metohija was Serbian province, not republic, and it could not be independent.


You have explained it just internal way. With this perspective I can say that Turkish laws don't give to right of Autonomy or separation chance so Kurds can't be independent. Same as Catalan situations in Spain.

Ethnic and lingustic Montenegrin are more similar with Serbs. They can be independent but not Kosovo



You have a lot of self-proclaimed territories after Kosovo, and what you do, Muslim self-proclaimed territories from Secular Christian/Atheist states can be own states but other self-proclaimed territories cannot be own states. It is Islamic supremacy.


What do you means by "You have a lot of self-proclaimed territories"

Sudan divived, East Timor become independent.



According your logic if any territory has Muslim majority it should be own state. If someone can follow your logic every Muslim no-go zone in the world should be own state.


We are talking about hypocrisy, so why should my logic be like that? I feel sorry now and I am thinking why you think like that.



Of course we can discuss, this is very constructive, and I will point you where you make mistakes about Kurdish economy, you will surprise how Kurdish economy can be successful.

Oops when did we talk about Kurdish Economy?

LABERIA
02-05-16, 20:14
oh really? so when Albania is Atheist is also Greek?

or When Greek is religious Albania is searching ISLAM DEFENDER ERDOGAN the MIGHTY?
Oh I forgot, Albanians who were good and rich when Ottomans and never revolt to Turks, and served them as 'soldiers'


BUT YOU STILL AVOID TO ANSWER INFRONT OF FORUM



now you make humor right?

well these are your words





Now what turned you on when I said to your officer




tell us Laberia

who are these other Muslim countries?
ok Bosnia is One, But which are the Others?

now decide laberia
are you an atheist?
is Albania an Atheist country as you said?
or it is 'other muslim countries of Balkans'?

to take you serious me and others of the forum, you must decide,
and not bomb us with propaganda

PS
My country is like shit today, but


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UfAL9f74I


PS2
by making jokes do not think that5 people laugh or accept what you say,


PS3

I am not christian, neither Muslim,
so what ever religious link you post simply you make things worse to you,
you just feel guilty, colonel, not me, i am just a weak peasant,
I don`t consider normal that in a thread about Kurdistan, one member start to post in row copy paste against the Albanians. I have read many threads about Albania and Albanians in this forum. I don`t consider normal that a person at your age from many years now, together with other serb members like this Garrick, Ike, this new entry Milan and some others, are investing your time only in attacking the Albanians. You are trying to mix many topix here only to discreditate the Albanians. But this thread is about Kurdistan.
If you want, you and the other members mentioned by me are free to open a new thread and to tell us about the glory of your forefathers and about their wars against the Ottomans. But i dubt that anyone from you will open a thread about this. You know why? Because there is no glory in the history of your both country. If the Ottomans were succesfull in the occupation of Balcan the reason is to be found in the collaboration of the Orthodox with this invadors. Except the Orthodox Albanians and few isolated cases, in the Balcan the Orthodox Church and the orthodox in general were were the best ally of the Ottomans. The only nation who fought against the Ottomans in the Balcan, from the begining until the end were the Albanians, all Albanians, Catholic, Orthodox and Muslims latter. And because it was this war of the Albanians who stopped the Ottoman invasion of Italy and the Europe. And in this war we were betrayed by our Orthodox "brethren" from Balcan and many times we were abbandoned from the West in this war. So i doubt that you can find glory in your history. On the contrary, there are many shamefull moments in your history. The orthtodox church, like a parasit,left the already dead body of the Byzantine Empire and the small Serbian principalities and passed into the body of this new, powerful and rising Empire, the Ottoman Empire. In this way the Church can continue its struggle against Catholicism and Western Europe.
You want to describe the Albanians as islamic terrorist. You both forget a couple of important facts. In the year 1999 Serbia was attacked by West because Serbia was and is an antiwestern country and a serv of Russia. This is historical fact. Of course this was not the only reason, but was the principal reason.
About you greeks, i told in an another post that your country bears the primary responsibility for this invasion of Europe by this extraordinary influx of refugees from East and Islamic terrorists. The reason it`s not because your country is a shit as you said in one of your posts. No. The reason is that your country intentionally, first blackmailed Europe and latter implemented this shameful plan. There are documents. Now, you can continue to say here that you personally are not an Orthodox and Garrick is a pro-Western. But this can be true as can be true that you are not troolls here.

P.S.
Can i ask you what is this idiot things of calling me colonel?

Yetos
10-05-16, 23:57
@ Boreas

Kemal was smart cause he and Benizelos made exchange,
Benizelos caught stupid, cause he trusted some idiot generals,

I will pass further,
that was a smart move,

much later Inonou or Menteresh, do not remember correct, was also smart,
cause he catch the days of Greece-Cyprus-UK diplomatic relations, and attack the Greek minority,
something that did not happened on the other side,
after 1973, and kissinger's times part of Cyprus was given gift to Turkey,
but Erdogan is an idiot,

and remember
both at Armenian Genocide, as also Pontic-Greek genocide Turkey had a best friend to do her job,
.
Now every day at Aegean sea happen strange things, and you know it,
it does not need a lot to start a fire,
it is not coinsidence that NATO brought power here, and the excuse of collecting immigrants is just for laughs,

As for the ottoman inheritage in Balkans, and the Greeco-Roman (byzantine) at minor Asia,
come on, search the 1920s treaties,
no monsque except Thrace,
no church except the ones who are written there, Imbros Tenedos Chalke/prigkipos and few other,

let me inform you that I have relatives at the Asian part near Proussa (Bursa) from a far-far ancestor, he was taken as yenicharie,
and many modern Greeks descent from Pontic Greeks, Zeybecks, Karahman, Myrsina, Smyrna,
and all families lost members, not at war, but at exchange, or at working 'camps' amele tamburlu, not at a war.
Enver Pasha directive 8682. september of 1943. later at 1950's and at 1974 with yarkitay desiscion.
and all these families have to say a good word, about a Turk who helped them, or hide them, etc


but I learn to respect my enemy, and honour him,
although many modern Greeks do not,
same many modern Turks,
so I wonder, when you say ottoman inheritage at Balkans you mean what?
the religious part? the govermental?
let me remind you that still in Greek language you find the words Rusfet, bahtsis, etc?

well to give honour, I have to admit
that until 1980-1990 most of the railway was build by Ottomans,
and ottoman state had land registry as we say in N Greece tapi, kitap, that even at 2016 we pushed it, but did not finish it,
so yes after 1850 ottoman state was indeed progressive,
but many balkan countries already revolt years before,
so the progressive Sultan firman of 1855 if remember correct was already late,

and to finish,
at his biggest glory, Suleigman the magnificent had 2 persons beside him
Impahim pasha, and Hayrettin Barbarossa, when he killed the first,etc etc, and brought (Sunni) Kati (high judges if remember correct) only missery find him,
as a Turk, I think you understand correct what I am saying.

Boreas
11-05-16, 19:36
@ Boreas
Kemal was smart cause he and Benizelos made exchange,


I have doubts about it like case of karamanidis



much later Inonou or Menteresh, do not remember correct, was also smart,
cause he catch the days of Greece-Cyprus-UK diplomatic relations, and attack the Greek minority,
something that did not happened on the other side,
after 1973, and kissinger's times part of Cyprus was given gift to Turkey,
but Erdogan is an idiot,


I guess you mean Menderes and 6-7 september pogrom. He judged and was punished by death. If the people in Cyprus could do it... oh but they didn't



and remember
both at Armenian Genocide, as also Pontic-Greek genocide Turkey had a best friend to do her job,


Let skip this theather part, my firend.



Now every day at Aegean sea happen strange things, and you know it,
it does not need a lot to start a fire,
it is not coinsidence that NATO brought power here, and the excuse of collecting immigrants is just for laughs,


Sorry My friend but I don't know what do you mean. Refugees or Aegean are not in top five in Turkey at least now. I am a little bit far from Aegean case as most of Turks, now. ISIS attacks to Turkish border cities, Kurdish bomb attacks, Erdoğan(president) and Davutoğlu(Turkish priminister) political fight...



As for the ottoman inheritage in Balkans, and the Greeco-Roman (byzantine) at minor Asia,
come on, search the 1920s treaties,
no monsque except Thrace,
no church except the ones who are written there, Imbros Tenedos Chalke/prigkipos and few other,


Which time are you living in? Oh because of that agreement Athens is the only capital of Europe where doesn't have any mosque. That makes sense :good_job:

I don't know any Greek Church, but I know other churches which was built in different part of Turkey



let me inform you that I have relatives at the Asian part near Proussa (Bursa) from a far-far ancestor, he was taken as yenicharie,
and many modern Greeks descent from Pontic Greeks, Zeybecks, Karahman, Myrsina, Smyrna,


While Greeks had these things, my relative from Greece and Bulgaria migrated to Turkey in convoy which was ruled by Dionysos. They drunk wine and enjoied a lot.




but I learn to respect my enemy, and honour him,


It sound like it is coming from mediveal age :grin:

Who is your ENEMY?



so I wonder, when you say ottoman inheritage at Balkans you mean what?
the religious part? the govermental?


Everything like I find Ottoman Classic Music in this Byzantine music. I mean Ottoman music is an another separated branch of Byzantine Music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da9FeNoFIm0&list=PLgehrqdmnt7sVot-RkY9BOuEQUVM6bcrC




let me remind you that still in Greek language you find the words Rusfet, bahtsis, etc?


Let me teach you, Rusfet is Arabic origion word and bahtsis is Persian,

so don't try these Byzantine Games :laughing:



well to give honour, I have to admit
that until 1980-1990 most of the railway was build by Ottomans,
and ottoman state had land registry as we say in N Greece tapi, kitap, that even at 2016 we pushed it, but did not finish it,
so yes after 1850 ottoman state was indeed progressive,
but many balkan countries already revolt years before,
so the progressive Sultan firman of 1855 if remember correct was already late,


Thank you to admit it.

Yetos
11-05-16, 22:20
No Boreas
I am not talking about the refuggees
that is not the only thing happens at Aegean sea

I am talking about these situation,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWDitH6hRx8

and if you did not realise the voice documents
then you can see it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxrf0qJAC1Y

this is not an airplane show,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cFHQTRm7bE

oh the dates?
april may 2016

and do you really know why Erdogan dismiss Davutoglu?

well surely one of them is deli,

and not even think that I am afraid,
the oposite, I am waiting,

Boreas
12-05-16, 07:15
No Boreas
I am not talking about the refuggees
that is not the only thing happens at Aegean sea

I am talking about these situation,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWDitH6hRx8

and if you did not realise the voice documents
then you can see it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxrf0qJAC1Y

this is not an airplane show,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cFHQTRm7bE

oh the dates?
april may 2016


Even the issue is not refugees. It is just a border issue. It isn't in top five, even not top ten.

But about this case;

I suppose, in the time of Ataturk it was just 3 nm,

6nm 10nm 12nm
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Aegean_6_nm.svg/432px-Aegean_6_nm.svg.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Aegean_10_nm.svg/432px-Aegean_10_nm.svg.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Aegean_12_nm.svg/432px-Aegean_12_nm.svg.png





and do you really know why Erdogan dismiss Davutoglu?


Erdoğan is waiting absolate obedience



and not even think that I am afraid,
the oposite, I am waiting,


You are waiting for what? An advice for you, read or watch Zorba again and learn how awful war is.

Yetos
12-05-16, 13:43
Even the issue is not refugees. It is just a border issue. It isn't in top five, even not top ten.

But about this case;

I suppose, in the time of Ataturk it was just 3 nm,

6nm 10nm 12nm
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Aegean_6_nm.svg/432px-Aegean_6_nm.svg.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Aegean_10_nm.svg/432px-Aegean_10_nm.svg.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Aegean_12_nm.svg/432px-Aegean_12_nm.svg.png





Erdoğan is waiting absolate obedience



You are waiting for what? An advice for you, read or watch Zorba again and learn how awful war is.

so I see you are informed,
that you know the casus beli,
and the international law about sea borders,
Thank you

Goga
15-05-16, 01:00
Ooh la la, this is what our true Aryan PKK guerrilla freedom warriors have (SAM). This is huge. PKK has got all it need to defeat EVERY intruder in Northern Kurdistan.

No enemy flying object is save in Northern Kurdistan from now on. I'm pleased to see how Turkey and its American and Western allies will react to it!

I've always been telling that America is the enemy of Great Kurdistan and a Aryan Kurdish race of the Mitanni, Kassites and Medes. America is playing with fire (KURDISH fire). And America will lose everything in the Middle East & East Europe. This is all what I've to say. Thank you Donetsk, Donbass!


Kurdish PKK shoot down a Turkish AH-1 Cobra Helicopter in southeast Turkey


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AME4o5avic0

Goga
15-05-16, 02:14
Mitanni Šauštatar's royal seal.

http://s32.postimg.org/5jy0d30mt/abc.jpg


original Mitanni source:

http://s32.postimg.org/tygjwpzhx/hit_the_daneflore.jpg






And now the ancient Ezdi seal from Lalish:


http://s32.postimg.org/u0dgmuk8l/abc_2.jpg


From the original Ezdi source in Lalish:

http://s32.postimg.org/9h0ni6tpx/Naamloos.jpg

Goga
15-05-16, 11:55
Ooh la la, this is what our true Aryan PKK guerrilla freedom warriors have (SAM). This is huge. PKK has got all it need to defeat EVERY intruder in Northern Kurdistan.

No enemy flying object is save in Northern Kurdistan from now on. I'm pleased to see how Turkey and its American and Western allies will react to it!

I've always been telling that America is the enemy of Great Kurdistan and a Aryan Kurdish race of the Mitanni, Kassites and Medes. America is playing with fire (KURDISH fire). And America will lose everything in the Middle East & East Europe. This is all what I've to say. Thank you Donetsk, Donbass!


Kurdish PKK shoot down a Turkish AH-1 Cobra Helicopter in southeast Turkey


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AME4o5avic0
I don't know why this video is down, but same video on YouTube is not down. You can search it on YouTube


" Kurdish militants challenge Turkish airpower with weapons acquisition "

http://triblive.com/usworld/world/10470047-74/turkish-turkey-kurdish



If you don't like YouTube there is also the same video posted on dailystar.co.uk. Btw, Kurds are saying that 8 Turkish Muslim terrorists were sent straight to Allah, and not 2 as this article claims.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/515467/Turkey-helicopter-shot-down-Russia-PKK-Kurds-MANPADS-Syria-Iraq-Middle-East

Yetos
15-05-16, 13:24
You are waiting for what? An advice for you, read or watch Zorba again and learn how awful war is.


Act of war?

BEYAZ FIRTINA

NOTAM Α2203/16

NOTAM A1035/16

that is what I am waiting,
the stupidity of modern Turkey,

http://images.newsnowgreece.com/92/929746/2.jpg

THAT IS ABOVE AREAS WHICH ARE HABBITED,
and blocks both National and international air corridors.

Angela
25-05-16, 19:07
Interesting new New York Times Magazine piece on the issue:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/29/magazine/behind-the-barricades-of-turkeys-hidden-war.html?smid=tw-share

LeBrok
26-05-16, 05:46
Good article Angela.

Seems like American administration worries about further Near East conflict, notably Turkey against Kurds:

American Special Operations troops now arm, equip and advise these Kurdish fighters, even as Turkey shells their bases farther west — and pays Islamist militias to attack them. As the war in Turkey grinds on, the United States is confronting a perilous sideshow that has begun to drain the energy and attention of the two allies it needs most. If it continues to spread, it could be worse than a distraction. As one Obama administration official put it to me: “Post-Paris, post-Brussels, we have to clear ISIS out. If it turns out that the coalition can’t operate in that space” — because of Turkey’s conflict with the Kurds — “then we have a serious problem.”

This is interesting:

The rebels I spoke to claimed to be the voice of a colonized and dispossessed people. But after nine months of war, many middle-class Turkish Kurds say the P.K.K.’s decision to take on the state was madness. In Diyarbakir’s historic Sur district, the fighting has destroyed a shopping and small-business hub that was the heart of the city’s economy. Thousands of jobs have been lost, and investors who flocked to the city during the cease-fire — when new hotels were being built — have fled. Even in Cizre and other bastions of P.K.K. support, many people quietly admit that they blame the insurgents.

How lack of equality, inclusiveness and justice can lead to radicalization of youth:

She had not planned to join the organization herself, but as a university student in western Turkey, she grew resentful that the university authorities treated her and other Kurds as potential criminals. She began reading Ocalan’s writings, and his ideas — especially about women’s empowerment — won her over.

Erdogan acting as typical neurotic dictator:

Erdogan’s visit to Washington in late March did nothing to address these tensions. The visit was for nuclear-security talks, but Erdogan reportedly lashed out angrily at American policy during an off-the-record dinner with former government officials and academics, and complained repeatedly about the American refusal to treat the P.Y.D. as a terrorist group. During a public speech at the Brookings Institution, his security guards got into a nasty melee outside the building, (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/03/31/turkeys-erdogan-came-to-washington-and-things-got-a-bit-crazy/?version=meter+at+3&module=meter-Links&pgtype=article&contentId=&mediaId=&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Fforum%2Fth reads%2F30161-Free-and-independent-Kurdistan-is-coming-soon%3Fp%3D480554&priority=true&action=click&contentCollection=meter-links-click) shoving and shouting at journalists, protesters and Brookings personnel. The guards ordered a prominent Turkish journalist, Amberin Zaman, to leave, calling her a “P.K.K. whore”

LeBrok
26-05-16, 05:55
In meantime Iraqi forces are trying to liberate Fallujah:
http://www.iraqinews.com/

While Kurds lead assault on Raqqa:
http://rudaw.net/english/middleeast/syria/24052016

Tomenable
23-06-16, 13:25
Today Yazidi girls cost between 15 dollars and 300+ dollars at ISIS slave market:

(See 8:55 - 9:05): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1r0s2mw1k#t=8m55s

One terrorist says that blue-eyed Yazidis are more expensive than brown-eyed.

Alan
23-06-16, 16:49
Today Yazidi girls cost between 15 dollars and 300+ dollars at ISIS slave market:

(See 8:55 - 9:05): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1r0s2mw1k#t=8m55s

One terrorist says that blue-eyed Yazidis are more expensive than brown-eyed.

That "Slave owner" dude and his comrades were caught by Kurdish forces this year in Raqqa offensive, and the prisoners were freed. The only thing that guy will probebly own is a strong Kurdish man coming for visist every night.

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4559664.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/ISIS-fighters-attending-slave-girl-market.jpg
https://sofrep.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Laughing-ISIS-rapist.jpg

LeBrok
05-07-16, 07:41
What a twist today. Daesh attacks Saudi Arabia in 3 different places with suicide bombers. One close to Mecca. Irony is that IS, the radical islamist organization, attacks a birthplace and center of radical Islam, the Saudi Arabia itself. How should we understand it?

They are losing ground everywhere now. They are not fit to lead ground war anymore. The "Caliphate" is shrinking every day. They only bite and kick now like cornered animal.
More terrorist bombings to come, because it is all they have left.

Dinarid
05-07-16, 22:51
I hope the Kurds and everyone else in the Middle East gains freedom. Unfortunately many are unaware of the plight of smaller-numbered peoples like the Mandeans who are almost gone. Hopefully those who left will come back to their villages.

Yetos
22-10-16, 20:21
Well something big is going to happened there,

Russia sends 'Pyotr Veliky' staffed with Granit missiles,
and aircarrier Kuznetsov with ability to serve 50 planes,

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/10/22/09/3995B36D00000578-3861166-The_Admiral_Kuznetsov_was_not_allowed_to_conduct_f light_operatio-a-18_1477123535086.jpg


Turkey the last days send F-16 to bomb both Daesh and YPG
Turkey has a strong base nearby and about 200 F-16 ready.
lately newspapper Sabah and Erdogan are provoking all neighbours of Turkey
and Turkish submarines enter Greek naval teritories in order to make a demonstration,

http://www.f-16.net/g3/var/resizes/f-16-photos/album37/album14/93-0667.jpg?m=1371907174


Daesh has regrouped, and prepairing to defend? or to attack?

I do not know what USA has already there,
But the forces gathered are significant,

Something big is going to happen?
or a new Sykes-Picot is about to be discussed?

Halepi Aleppo Χαλυβες the ancient territory from which Greeks gave name to the hardest form of iron the Steel (Χαλυβας)
might be witness of a strong battle, or a new treaty

LABERIA
22-10-16, 22:09
This ships are part of Northern Fleet, with headquarters and administrative center located at the main base at Severomorsk with secondary bases elsewhere in the Kola Bay.
The group is composed by:
1 Carrier
1 Cruiser
2 Udaloy-class Destroyers
1 Admiral Grigorovich-class Frigate
3 corvettes (classes Buyan M and Nanuchka III)
1 towing boat
1 minelayers,
various support-ships

an important task-force.
The intention is to use it in the battle of Aleppo. But also is an demonstration of force, because they don't intend to pass from North-West of Britan, but in English Chanel, in the heart of Europe, of course in international waters.

LABERIA
22-10-16, 22:30
Well something big is going to happened there,

Russia sends 'Pyotr Veliky' staffed with Granit missiles,
and aircarrier Kuznetsov with ability to serve 50 planes,

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/10/22/09/3995B36D00000578-3861166-The_Admiral_Kuznetsov_was_not_allowed_to_conduct_f light_operatio-a-18_1477123535086.jpg

Yetos, what kind of fuel are using the Russians, crude oil or coal? To much smoke, NATO forces don't need a radar to discover the position of Kuznetsov.
BTW, a comparison:
http://orig05.deviantart.net/89b3/f/2012/254/8/7/aircraft_carrier_size_comparison_by_zhanrae30-d5ec7ch.jpg

Yetos
23-10-16, 01:01
@ Laberia

I am not a Russian,
but neither American,

I said about 'Pyotr Veliky' will make comapny to aircarrier,

Now if you do not know Pyotr Veliky cruiser and its abilities,
plz no need to say what ever,
it is a Kirov class from 1980's, uses nuclear power but with unknown Russian technology since modernized at 1998 and 2016 and able to carry 150 P-700 Granit missiles or new model?, and SS-300 or more?


overestimation and underestimation of military forces can not be done by us,
even high command officers do not dare to do such,
only some stupid politicians,
and believe me,
Neither US officers are stupid, neither Russian officers,

and for your information, to locate a ship means nothing,
from Russia to Gibraltar the Russian fleet sails together with British and Francais cruisers,

It is Syria the target, there will be battle or treaty, not at NATO, neither at Russia,
and moving so strong force there, something big is about to happen,
either they end the war, either a strong battle,

PS
not even politicians speak like that,
Leonidas with 300 man make biger damage than expected
and David shot down Goliath,
so numbers are just numbers.

PS 2

At Halepi (Aleppo) as you already said, there is going to be either a big battle,
either a peace treaty.

PS3
the late speeches of Erdogan show that he is mad with something,
Surely he knows something that we don't,
Incirlik air base is important and very modern and Turkish air force is strong enough with 200 F-16

LeBrok
23-10-16, 05:05
Yetos, what kind of fuel are using the Russians, crude oil or coal? To much smoke, NATO forces don't need a radar to discover the position of Kuznetsov.
BTW, a comparison:
The amount of smoke from this thing is ridiculous. Amazing that Russians couldn't build aircraft carrier with nuclear power engin. Perhaps they want to kill rebels with fumes?

LABERIA
23-10-16, 10:18
@ Laberia

I am not a Russian,
but neither American,

I said about 'Pyotr Veliky' will make comapny to aircarrier,

Now if you do not know Pyotr Veliky cruiser and its abilities,
plz no need to say what ever,
it is a Kirov class from 1980's, uses nuclear power but with unknown Russian technology since modernized at 1998 and 2016 and able to carry 150 P-700 Granit missiles or new model?, and SS-300 or more?


overestimation and underestimation of military forces can not be done by us,
even high command officers do not dare to do such,
only some stupid politicians,
and believe me,
Neither US officers are stupid, neither Russian officers,

and for your information, to locate a ship means nothing,
from Russia to Gibraltar the Russian fleet sails together with British and Francais cruisers,

It is Syria the target, there will be battle or treaty, not at NATO, neither at Russia,
and moving so strong force there, something big is about to happen,
either they end the war, either a strong battle,

PS
not even politicians speak like that,
Leonidas with 300 man make biger damage than expected
and David shot down Goliath,
so numbers are just numbers.

PS 2

At Halepi (Aleppo) as you already said, there is going to be either a big battle,
either a peace treaty.

PS3
the late speeches of Erdogan show that he is mad with something,
Surely he knows something that we don't,
Incirlik air base is important and very modern and Turkish air force is strong enough with 200 F-16
Yes Yetos, i know that you are a greek, a macedonian. But i have read somewhere in the forum that you are an engineer and i hoped for an specialized opinion.
BTW, the Incerlik air base is an USA base with few turks and british.

LABERIA
23-10-16, 10:40
The amount of smoke from this thing is ridiculous. Amazing that Russians couldn't build aircraft carrier with nuclear power engin. Perhaps they want to kill rebels with fumes?

Let's hope that they arrive in Tartus sanni e salvi. The last thing that we want is a new Hollywood movie with Harrison Ford and Liam Neeson about the bravery of russian sailors in their tentative to save the world from....a nuclear meltdown of their reactors.
BTW, speaking about battleships and Hollywood, have a look to this new American "toy" :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt-class_destroyer#/search

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/Future_USS_Zumwalt%27s_first_underway_at_sea.jpg/1023px-Future_USS_Zumwalt%27s_first_underway_at_sea.jpg
Looks like something arrived from the future, from the movie "Star Trek". Even the captain of this ship, guess how is named...... James Kirk.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/12/us/navy-launches-largest-destroyer-with-captain-kirk-at-the-helm.html?_r=1&referer=http://historum.com/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2016%2F09 %2F12%2Fus%2Fnavy-launches-largest-destroyer-with-captain-kirk-at-the-helm.html%3F_r%3D0

By KENNETH R. ROSEN
SEPTEMBER 11, 2016
Who better to handle the United States Navy’s new futuristic destroyer than a captain named James A. Kirk?

The country’s largest destroyer, the U.S.S. Zumwalt, deployed from its home at General Dynamics Bath Iron Works in Maine on Wednesday and set sail with the smallest crew in naval history since the 1930s.

While the 610-foot, 15,000-ton warship technologically resembles the Starship Enterprise from the television series “Star Trek” — with a captain’s bridge hemmed by 360 degrees of video monitors and automated weapons, fire and flood control systems — there is no relation.

“Certainly, I have been ribbed every now and then with someone saying, ‘You’re going where no man has gone before on this class of ship,’” Captain Kirk told The Associated Press.

Yetos
23-10-16, 11:22
@Laberia

come on,

you are an Albanian, you know the story

http://www.copyright-free-photos.org.uk/USAF/F-117-nighthawk.jpg

not from future, but came from 'Hyper-space,
Stealth they said, no radar can catch it,
but simple TV wave signal caugh tit,

so the 'hyper-space creature become,

https://serbiathroughamericaneyes.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/plane1.png


since you are an Albanian I expect you to know the story,
Billions and trillions of US $ on stealth technology to the trash basket,
cause YES NO RADAR CAN CATCH IT.
BUT ALL TV SETS DO ........
No special missile can drop it,
Just Zoo bullets like the ones of WW2

so design means nothing to me,
only to 'terify' the enemy.


thanks to that today china has Chengdu J-20,

You see as an engineer I am always amazed by new tecnhology,
But I always expect the problem, or the effects, of the construction,

and I repeat, I am not Russian, neither American,
but moving such a battle power to Syrria,
armed with SS-300 and ability to use 96 of them at first launch (pyotr veliky) as anti-air shield,
it is not a piece of cake,

now lets hope that no battle will be done,
but if it is done, we might all see strange things,like the F-117 at Serbia
or the Kursk case at Barents sea,

cause something like I expect, if a battle takes place
either US advertised design to be proved hoax,
either Russian self-destruct ships,

LABERIA
23-10-16, 11:54
@Laberia

come on,

you are an Albanian, you know the story

http://www.copyright-free-photos.org.uk/USAF/F-117-nighthawk.jpg

not from future, but came from 'Hyper-space,
Stealth they said, no radar can catch it,
but simple TV wave signal caugh tit,

so the 'hyper-space creature become,

https://serbiathroughamericaneyes.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/plane1.png


since you are an Albanian I expect you to know the story,
Billions and trillions of US $ on stealth technology to the trash basket,
cause YES NO RADAR CAN CATCH IT.
BUT ALL TV SETS DO ........
No special missile can drop it,
Just Zoo bullets like the ones of WW2

so design means nothing to me,
only to 'terify' the enemy.
And what have to do Albanians with all this?

Yetos
23-10-16, 12:10
And what have to do Albanians with all this?


what?

hm, probably, you were not even born when Kossovo-Serbia strugle happened?
to ask me such a question,

LABERIA
23-10-16, 13:25
what?

hm, probably, you were not even born when Kossovo-Serbia strugle happened?
to ask me such a question,

Let say that probably i was born when Kosova was liberated. Again, what have to do Albanians in this discussion? You mentioned us twice in your post. And many times i have difficulty to understand your posts, you have an baffling style in writing your posts.
Has to do this because i said that i know that you are a greek?

DuPidh
23-10-16, 13:42
Well something big is going to happened there,

Russia sends 'Pyotr Veliky' staffed with Granit missiles,
and aircarrier Kuznetsov with ability to serve 50 planes,

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/10/22/09/3995B36D00000578-3861166-The_Admiral_Kuznetsov_was_not_allowed_to_conduct_f light_operatio-a-18_1477123535086.jpg


Turkey the last days send F-16 to bomb both Daesh and YPG
Turkey has a strong base nearby and about 200 F-16 ready.
lately newspapper Sabah and Erdogan are provoking all neighbours of Turkey
and Turkish submarines enter Greek naval teritories in order to make a demonstration,

http://www.f-16.net/g3/var/resizes/f-16-photos/album37/album14/93-0667.jpg?m=1371907174


Daesh has regrouped, and prepairing to defend? or to attack?

I do not know what USA has already there,
But the forces gathered are significant,

Something big is going to happen?
or a new Sykes-Picot is about to be discussed?

Halepi Aleppo Χαλυβες the ancient territory from which Greeks gave name to the hardest form of iron the Steel (Χαλυβας)
might be witness of a strong battle, or a new treaty

Steam engines? I thought they were obsolete!

Yetos
23-10-16, 14:58
Let say that probably i was born when Kosova was liberated. Again, what have to do Albanians in this discussion? You mentioned us twice in your post. And many times i have difficulty to understand your posts, you have an baffling style in writing your posts.
Has to do this because i said that i know that you are a greek?

I think you are smarter,

you just post a futuristic battle ship at #1310 and said what ever advertising about NATO and modern guns,
but were you born? when the previous futuristic and much advertised F-117 was shot down?
well at least all Balkanic people know that,
the most ridiculous of USA army creation, which was considered undefeated F-117
as Kursk accident at an exercise, was the most ridiculous of Russia.
cause it was very funny, a modern aircraft, that no radar can catch, and no missile can be found,
to be shut down by anti-air bullets that were used at WW2

so by posting that futuristic ship with captains name Kirk as starship 'enteprise'
and call upon my enginnering knowledges,
I simply want to remind you,
cause probably you were alive that day,
that even futuristic models can be off by simple things that engineer did not predict,
like the TV waves, which are absorved by stealth tecnholgy, giving a signal empty space on TV sets

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4c/f2/7d/4cf27dd84c9be7af0e906f74e23d6557.jpg

well probably in few years guns might look like this :laughing:


now, your mind plays games, not mine,
As an Albanian, and probably born at Kossovo-Serbia strugle,
my simple mind, believes that you remember the actions,
cause all the world laugh with US airforce ridicule there,
bombing with precise surgery strike bombs, which accidently hit the chinese embassy, :laughing: ( oh no, accident!!!)
and use of F-117 invisible, which was not invisible, :laughing: (oh no accident)

now if you don't and still believe in outer-space guns,
your problem.

now if as Albanian, as you say you are, you do not remember these, surely happened at your neighbourhood,
and you were eye or hear witness that days
and still believe at 'mythical weapons' then all I can say, sorry,
cause your memory is epilectic

LABERIA
23-10-16, 16:39
I think you are smarter,

you just post a futuristic battle ship at #1310 and said what ever advertising about NATO and modern guns,
but were you born? when the previous futuristic and much advertised F-117 was shot down?
well at least all Balkanic people know that,
the most ridiculous of USA army creation, which was considered undefeated F-117
as Kursk accident at an exercise, was the most ridiculous of Russia.
cause it was very funny, a modern aircraft, that no radar can catch, and no missile can be found,
to be shut down by anti-air bullets that were used at WW2

so by posting that futuristic ship with captains name Kirk as starship 'enteprise'
and call upon my enginnering knowledges,
I simply want to remind you,
cause probably you were alive that day,
that even futuristic models can be off by simple things that engineer did not predict,
like the TV waves, which are absorved by stealth tecnholgy, giving a signal empty space on TV sets

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4c/f2/7d/4cf27dd84c9be7af0e906f74e23d6557.jpg

well probably in few years guns might look like this :laughing:


now, your mind plays games, not mine,
As an Albanian, and probably born at Kossovo-Serbia strugle,
my simple mind, believes that you remember the actions,
cause all the world laugh with US airforce ridicule there,
bombing with precise surgery strike bombs, which accidently hit the chinese embassy, :laughing: ( oh no, accident!!!)
and use of F-117 invisible, which was not invisible, :laughing: (oh no accident)

now if you don't and still believe in outer-space guns,
your problem.

now if as Albanian, as you say you are, you do not remember these, surely happened at your neighbourhood,
and you were eye or hear witness that days
and still believe at 'mythical weapons' then all I can say, sorry,
cause your memory is epilectic

My memory is not epileptic, but i don't like psychopathic theories. Because you are an engineer (can i what kind of engineer are you?), you have to know that the bullet of WWII can not win against the stealth. I doubt in the theory of the bullet and i don't understand the connection with the bombing of Chinese embassy and Kursk. But this has to do with your style: you know what i know and for this reason i don't tell to you.
BTW, i even don't understand why you want to put in the middle always the Albanians and what have to do the smoking beast with Albania.

Yetos
23-10-16, 17:32
My memory is not epileptic, but i don't like psychopathic theories. Because you are an engineer (can i what kind of engineer are you?), you have to know that the bullet of WWII can not win against the stealth. I doubt in the theory of the bullet and i don't understand the connection with the bombing of Chinese embassy and Kursk. But this has to do with your style: you know what i know and for this reason i don't tell to you.
BTW, i even don't understand why you want to put in the middle always the Albanians and what have to do the smoking beast with Albania.


I think you have a problem,
I explained well, something, but still your mind can not see,
sο when your selective mind, can open to see what the other is writting,
talk to me again,
right now, it is obvious, that your selective memory, is full of empathy,
and you can not view things clear,

a burst of bullets from a Mauser 30 or a ZU 23 formation , cut the polymeric of a stealth like a butter at a height over 6000 feet,
and the unstability of this plane, is enough to drive it to fail.

LABERIA
23-10-16, 17:39
I think you have a problem,
I explained well, something, but still your mind can not see,
sο when your selective mind, can open to see what the other is writting,
talk to me again,
right now, it is obvious, that your selective memory, is full of empathy,
and you can not view things clear,

You didn't told what kind of engineer are you, what is your profile of job? Because there are many categories of engineers.

LeBrok
23-10-16, 18:45
Let's hope that they arrive in Tartus sanni e salvi. The last thing that we want is a new Hollywood movie with Harrison Ford and Liam Neeson about the bravery of russian sailors in their tentative to save the world from....a nuclear meltdown of their reactors.
BTW, speaking about battleships and Hollywood, have a look to this new American "toy" :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt-class_destroyer#/search

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/Future_USS_Zumwalt%27s_first_underway_at_sea.jpg/1023px-Future_USS_Zumwalt%27s_first_underway_at_sea.jpg
Looks like something arrived from the future, from the movie "Star Trek". Even the captain of this ship, guess how is named...... James Kirk.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/12/us/navy-launches-largest-destroyer-with-captain-kirk-at-the-helm.html?_r=1&referer=http://historum.com/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2016%2F09 %2F12%2Fus%2Fnavy-launches-largest-destroyer-with-captain-kirk-at-the-helm.html%3F_r%3D0

By KENNETH R. ROSEN
SEPTEMBER 11, 2016
Who better to handle the United States Navy’s new futuristic destroyer than a captain named James A. Kirk?

The country’s largest destroyer, the U.S.S. Zumwalt, deployed from its home at General Dynamics Bath Iron Works in Maine on Wednesday and set sail with the smallest crew in naval history since the 1930s.

While the 610-foot, 15,000-ton warship technologically resembles the Starship Enterprise from the television series “Star Trek” — with a captain’s bridge hemmed by 360 degrees of video monitors and automated weapons, fire and flood control systems — there is no relation.

“Certainly, I have been ribbed every now and then with someone saying, ‘You’re going where no man has gone before on this class of ship,’” Captain Kirk told The Associated Press.Indeed very futuristic look, almost like a flipped boat, swimming upside down.

The stealth ship cost about $4.4 billion and is operated by a crew of 147 officers and sailors, about half the personnel of other current destroyers. Even the crew are not typical ragged and tough sailors but mostly computer geeks.

LABERIA
23-10-16, 18:57
Indeed very futuristic look, almost like a flipped boat, swimming upside down.
Even the crew are not typical ragged and tough sailors but mostly computer geeks.

Yes, but seems that Yetos like a specialised person, don't like this ship. I don't know why he became nervous, i didn't said nothing about Greece and Greeks this time.

LeBrok
23-10-16, 18:59
Yes, but seems that Yetos like a specialised person, don't like this ship. I don't know why he became nervous, i didn't said nothing about Greece and Greeks this time.According to his conspiracy theories USA is one of the worse evil on earth. Everything coming from them must be bad and will serve colonising and enslaving the world.

Yetos
23-10-16, 19:03
Yes, but seems that Yetos like a specialised person, don't like this ship. I don't know why he became nervous, i didn't said nothing about Greece and Greeks this time.


cause when someone is showing the moon to you,
you just see his finger,

Anyway,

and this was a fantastic plane

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/f-117-960911-F-00000-002.jpg

only its life at action was not even 20 years,
fully created at 1989
retired at 2008,
his replacement 'raptor' retired before even had a fight, a toital failure, but advertisement to full,

so much $ money just for futuristic design,
pitty,
they could have cure SIDA with that money, and gain real glory,
than a fake advertised one,



and when someone points the moon,
we do not watch his finger.


Anyway,
I hope you guys do not want to see who is better,
USA or Russia,
cause it will be the end,
I hope you just want a fair and vital treaty there,

LABERIA
23-10-16, 19:11
cause when someone is showing the moon to you,
you just see his finger,

Anyway,

and this was a fantastic plane

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/f-117-960911-F-00000-002.jpg

only its life at action was not even 20 years,
fully created at 1989
retired at 2008,
his replacement 'raptor' retired before even had a fight, a toital failure, but advertisement to full,

so much $ money just for futuristic design,
pitty,
they could have cure SIDA with that money, and gain real glory,
than a fake advertised one,



and when someone points the moon,
we do not watch his finger.
About the story of the finger you are right because i have difficulty to understand your posts. You are some kind of magicians.

LABERIA
23-10-16, 19:13
According to his conspiracy theories USA is one of the worse evil on earth. Everything coming from them must be bad and will serve colonising and enslaving the world.But USA is our ally. Greece is in NATO, right?

LeBrok
23-10-16, 20:00
But USA is our ally. Greece is in NATO, right? One would think so.

Yetos
23-10-16, 23:40
But USA is our ally. Greece is in NATO, right?


I think you missunderstood NATO,
NATO is a Defencive coaltion, and created after WW2, so to create a coalition to defend against any USSR offensive action,

and NATO has 2 faces,
It happened to work for 1, the humanitarian one,
the one that designs bridges, roads airports powerplants hospitals etc,
the other face is trully military,

Now NATO treaties and agreements are Strange,
for example at 1974 and Cyprus,
a possible war among Greece and Turkey that time is out of NATO business,
cause NATO has no right to defend one or another of its members when they have war,

that is why although Greece was from the first NATO members, left NATO at 1974,
cause interfear to our inner policy, as dictatorship,
but reenters NATO political part quickly, but not at military part which happened decades after,
so as you see NATO also is divided to political and military part,
someone can be political members, but not military one,
NATO also is using standard weapon and forces,
for example in my country there are brigades that are according NATO standards, and ready to work-cooperate with rest NATO forces,
but there are also brigades outside of NATO stantards to defend the country from a possible NATO member attack.

NATO has also a secret face, the attacking one,
which finds me negative,
cause the goal of NATO is the reason that was created,
to defend any member from ex-communist attack, like in Korea, or today from any Russian or Chinese attack,
but in NATO treaties, war among its members is possible, and in this case the rest countries must stay neutral.

so about Greece,
Yes it is an ally of NATO, as concerns the defencive subjects of the alliance,
but also has army outside NATO as concerns the defencive subjects from an ally,
and the offcial dogma is no participation to offencive acts of NATO,

do I cover you?

it is like Denmark or England and EU,
England is a EU member, but a Eurozone member, at least until today
and Denmark is mostly at EC times than to Fiscal EU of today,

to make clear my shelf,
if for example S Korea attacks N Korea,
Greece is not obliged to send troops.
but if N Korea attacks S Korea,
Greece is obliged to send forces,
and if for example a war among, lets say Portugal and Spain happens,
Greece must stay neutral.


That is the Basical dogma of NATO,
and not to serve USA,
it gives freedom to act, or stay neutral,
but also obligations,

NATO is not USA,
for example if Russia attacks Czechia or Polish republic, NATO members are obliged to send forces and help,
but if USA wants to sent troops or tanks there, at peace time, members are not forced to do such,
it is a defencive alliance, not an offencive,

to understand NATO
search the Cyprus 1974 case
and the Falkland war at 1982

and there might be a new NATO political problem at Syrria these days,
for example how the alliance should act if Russians shot down Turkish airplanes,
or the oposite Turks shot down Russian planes, in a land outside NATO orders as it is today Syrria.

for example shooting a Russian plane at Syrria, can be an attacking act of a NATO member?
or shooting down a Turkish plane above Syrria, not inside Turkish borders, can be considered as an attack against a NATO country?
the above questions are the political/diplomatic part of NATO,
and are not to be solved by me and you,
so do not bother to answer,
they are just retorical questions to make you think,
we can not solve them, and is not our busineess to do so.

Yetos
24-10-16, 12:53
@ Laberia

and since you are in LOVE with USA
see this


USS Mount Whitney,
a reliable ship, not a futuristic crap

it is already at Pireus (Porto Leone) and will go at East mediterenean soon,

as you see not only Russia, but USA is sending strong forces outside Syrria and Turkey to.

http://www.zougla.gr/assets/images/2078167.jpg


Mt Whitney is a ship specialized at telecomunications and electronic war,
and is the admiral's ship of 6th fleet,

also lately came the USS Mason at Piraus
http://www.thepressroom.gr/sites/default/files/styles/image_1100_xxx/public/field/articles/images/ussmason_0.jpg?itok=MV9Y-xNg



also USS WASP
is already at Crete,

http://admin.ekriti.gr/sites/default/files/styles/flexslider_full/public/thumbnails/image/uss-essex-600x400.jpg?itok=nEqooxNV

all these they going to create a battle power when unite with this

http://www.zarpanews.gr/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/truman_souda1.jpg


USS Harry Truman,


so these 4 ships are certainly in 6th fleet and will go outside Syrria to,

LABERIA
24-10-16, 13:36
@ Laberia

and since you are in LOVE with USA
see this


USS Mount Whitney,
a reliable ship, not a futuristic crap

it is already at Pireus (Porto Leone) and will go at East mediterenean soon,

as you see not only Russia, but USA is sending strong forces outside Syrria and Turkey to.

http://www.zougla.gr/assets/images/2078167.jpg


Mt Whitney is a ship specialized at telecomunications and electronic war,
and is the admiral's ship of 6th fleet,

also lately came the USS Mason at Piraus
http://www.thepressroom.gr/sites/default/files/styles/image_1100_xxx/public/field/articles/images/ussmason_0.jpg?itok=MV9Y-xNg



also USS WASP
is already at Crete,

http://admin.ekriti.gr/sites/default/files/styles/flexslider_full/public/thumbnails/image/uss-essex-600x400.jpg?itok=nEqooxNV

all these they going to create a battle power when unite with this

http://www.zarpanews.gr/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/truman_souda1.jpg


USS Harry Truman,


so these 4 ships are certainly in 6th fleet and will go outside Syrria to,

Yetos, i don't see smoke.

Yetos
24-10-16, 16:47
Yetos, i don't see smoke.

yup

but you see rust, :grin:

besides can be usefull.
it covers the area and makes vision difficult, :laughing:

anyway,
gathering of smoke and rust, is not agood thing,

LABERIA
24-10-16, 16:54
yup

but you see rust, :grin:

besides can be usefull.
it covers the area and makes vision difficult, :laughing:

anyway,
gathering of smoke and rust, is not agood thing,

The rust? Yetos, what kind of engineer are you? If you are an forest engineer, let me remember that in our days there are no more ships made with woods.

Yetos
24-10-16, 17:29
The rust? Yetos, what kind of engineer are you? If you are an forest engineer, let me remember that in our days there are no more ships made with woods.


haha,
at 2016 rust at a ship means bad condition, and bad programed services,

there many acrylic or 2 material mix paints etc, so not to have rust,
If you paint them with paints you use to paint your wall,
then surely rust will appear,

try the paint I use to my fence
12 years and no rust has been found,

LABERIA
24-10-16, 17:41
haha,
at 2016 rust at a ship means bad condition, and bad programed services,

there many acrylic or 2 material mix paints etc, so not to have rust,
If you paint them with paints you use to paint your wall,
then surely rust will appear,

try the paint I use to my fence
12 years and no rust has been found,

Yetos, the rust is the main enemy of a ship. You can't do nothing against it. They clean the ship using metal brushes, sandpaper, etc. They use special paints etc. Especially the water of the sea is very corrosive.

Yetos
24-10-16, 17:51
Come on
at what century do you live?

metal brushes? and sand pappers,
what? the captain has 1 hand and 1 Hook?
Call the KRAKEN!!!! oups it ate captain's leg!!!

Do not want to advertise,
but at 2016, things are more easy,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTryzMZyoOc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf1pkzmd2qk

LABERIA
24-10-16, 18:24
Come on
at what century do you live?

metal brushes? and sand pappers,
what? the captain has 1 hand and 1 Hook?
Call the KRAKEN!!!! oups it ate captain's leg!!!

Do not want to advertise,
but at 2016, things are more easy,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTryzMZyoOc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf1pkzmd2qk

Hahahahahaha. Yetos, my English is not my strong point, also i like things hand made.

LABERIA
24-10-16, 20:20
Come on at what century do you live? metal brushes? and sand pappers, what? the captain has 1 hand and 1 Hook? Call the KRAKEN!!!! oups it ate captain's leg!!! Do not want to advertise, but at 2016, things are more easy, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTryzMZyoOc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf1pkzmd2qk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1eYHKAzKBw

Yetos
24-10-16, 21:34
ok

but I still prefer Soda blasters and glass blasters for metals,
and Αζωτουχα αλατα. nitrum salts at paints, for has the ability to hold electrons
and cover of acrylic, or elecrostastic paint
but acrylic is too expensive,,
sand blastic is accused for enviromental effects, silikosis of water, sicic acid,

remember there are some simple paints, that can do fine job with metals at water,


PS,
why do you think they gather such force there both USA and Russia?

Yetos
26-10-16, 14:45
I said something big is about to happen at Syria,

But I did not expect this!!!!

HPD member Ziya Pir (kurdish party at Turkey) is demanding Greek Islands !!!!

http://content-mcdn.ethnos.gr/filesystem/images/20161026/engine/newego_LARGE_t_420_54920774_type13145.jpg

Gush!!!!

even Οινουσες the island of Aristotelis Onasis,

madness

LABERIA
26-10-16, 14:51
I said something big is about to happen at Syria,

But I did not expect this!!!!

HPD member Ziya Pir (kurdish party) is demanding Greek Islands !!!!

http://content-mcdn.ethnos.gr/filesystem/images/20161026/engine/newego_LARGE_t_420_54920774_type13145.jpg

Gush!!!!

even Οινουσες the island of Aristotelis Onasis,

What???? What islands Yetos?

LeBrok
26-10-16, 17:14
I said something big is about to happen at Syria,

But I did not expect this!!!!

HPD member Ziya Pir (kurdish party at Turkey) is demanding Greek Islands !!!!

http://content-mcdn.ethnos.gr/filesystem/images/20161026/engine/newego_LARGE_t_420_54920774_type13145.jpg

Gush!!!!

even Οινουσες the island of Aristotelis Onasis,

madnessFor god sake, you have thousands and thousands of Island, give them couple. Don't be selfish.

LABERIA
26-10-16, 17:38
For god sake, you have thousands and thousands of Island, give them couple. Don't be selfish.

Yep. And we will se in the waters of Meditteranean the Kurdish Fleet with the aircraft carrier Oçalan.

Yetos
26-10-16, 20:25
For god sake, you have thousands and thousands of Island, give them couple. Don't be selfish.

hahahahaha,

and you have such big country,
give some land to Russia,

Goga
26-10-16, 20:45
I said something big is about to happen at Syria,

But I did not expect this!!!!

HPD member Ziya Pir (kurdish party at Turkey) is demanding Greek Islands !!!!

http://content-mcdn.ethnos.gr/filesystem/images/20161026/engine/newego_LARGE_t_420_54920774_type13145.jpg

Gush!!!!

even Οινουσες the island of Aristotelis Onasis,

madness
What kind of nonsense is this? Maybe his twitter was hacked or something. I don't know any Kurd who claims other people's land. Kurds are NOT invaders. Why should Kurds want to have land with belongs to other people. Great Kurdistan will incorporate every inch of historic Kurdish soil. And Great Kurdistan wil be free & independent very, very soon.

LeBrok
26-10-16, 22:04
hahahahaha,

and you have such big country,
give some land to Russia, It doesn't make sense Yetos. Russia is already the biggest country in the world, but Kurds don't have their own country at all. I thought, you as a communist, would know how to share with people who don't have?

LABERIA
26-10-16, 22:39
What kind of nonsense is this? Maybe his twitter was hacked or something. I don't know any Kurd who claims other people's land. Kurds are NOT invaders. Why should Kurds want to have land with belongs to other people. Great Kurdistan will incorporate every inch of historic Kurdish soil. And Great Kurdistan wil be free & independent very, very soon.
I think Yetos is wrong. He don`t claim this islands as Kurdish soil but as Turkish:
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2016/10/26/kurdish-mp-claims-16-islands-in-the-aegean-sea-belong-to-turkey/

Kurdish MP claims “16 islands in the Aegean Sea” belong to Turkey (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2016/10/26/kurdish-mp-claims-16-islands-in-the-aegean-sea-belong-to-turkey/)
A Kurdish member of the Turkish Parliament launched a campaign against President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and uses nationalistic and expansionist rhetoric and, of course, the Greek islands.
The man accused Erdogan that he allowed Greece to occupy “16 islands in the Aegean Sea” and claimed that “Turkey has sovereign rights over them.”
Among others, he mentioned the islands of Gavdos, Dionysades, Gaidouronisi, Koufonisi, Pharmakonisi, Oinousses and Agathonisi.
He accused Erdogan of “treason” and “betrayal”.

LABERIA
26-10-16, 22:40
It doesn't make sense Yetos. Russia is already the biggest country in the world, but Kurds don't have their own country at all. I thought, you as a communist, would know how to share with people who don't have?

Yetos is communist?

Yetos
26-10-16, 23:11
It doesn't make sense Yetos. Russia is already the biggest country in the world, but Kurds don't have their own country at all. I thought, you as a communist, would know how to share with people who don't have?

First I am not communist,
Second No, true Russians do not have a country,
Ruthinians do not have a country,
and is time to give them some land, come on you are a big country, give some land to those who have not,
As a generous Capitalist as you are, only money are important, so what is a few square Km for you?

Yetos
26-10-16, 23:15
I think Yetos is wrong. He don`t claim this islands as Kurdish soil but as Turkish:
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2016/10/26/kurdish-mp-claims-16-islands-in-the-aegean-sea-belong-to-turkey/

Kurdish MP claims “16 islands in the Aegean Sea” belong to Turkey (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2016/10/26/kurdish-mp-claims-16-islands-in-the-aegean-sea-belong-to-turkey/)


A Kurdish member of the Turkish Parliament launched a campaign against President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and uses nationalistic and expansionist rhetoric and, of course, the Greek islands.
The man accused Erdogan that he allowed Greece to occupy “16 islands in the Aegean Sea” and claimed that “Turkey has sovereign rights over them.”
Among others, he mentioned the islands of Gavdos, Dionysades, Gaidouronisi, Koufonisi, Pharmakonisi, Oinousses and Agathonisi.
He accused Erdogan of “treason” and “betrayal”.

That is the madness, !!!!
the second time, the Kurds hardly are about to get tottaly indipedence, not partially as Today,
you see him claim Greek Islands, things that not even the most Nationalist Turk dares to speak!!!! :confused2:
He claims Greek islands for Turkey :petrified: , when someone would thought that he claim some indipedence in some Kurdish areas,!!!!!! at least outside Turkey

madnessssss !!!!!!!

:banghead:


The genocide of yezidi is forgoten,
and the attacks to Mossoule at central North Iraq,
and he remember 'sauvereign' over Greek islands ????
where in some islands refugeess and illegal immigrants are even more in number than Greek citizens!!!

Goga
26-10-16, 23:32
I think Yetos is wrong. He don`t claim this islands as Kurdish soil but as Turkish:
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2016/10/26/kurdish-mp-claims-16-islands-in-the-aegean-sea-belong-to-turkey/

Kurdish MP claims “16 islands in the Aegean Sea” belong to Turkey (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2016/10/26/kurdish-mp-claims-16-islands-in-the-aegean-sea-belong-to-turkey/)


A Kurdish member of the Turkish Parliament launched a campaign against President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and uses nationalistic and expansionist rhetoric and, of course, the Greek islands.
The man accused Erdogan that he allowed Greece to occupy “16 islands in the Aegean Sea” and claimed that “Turkey has sovereign rights over them.”
Among others, he mentioned the islands of Gavdos, Dionysades, Gaidouronisi, Koufonisi, Pharmakonisi, Oinousses and Agathonisi.
He accused Erdogan of “treason” and “betrayal”.If it is true what that Kurd has said, then this Kurd is full sarcasm and is laughing at this clown Erdogan. Erdogan the Daesh clown has an Ottoman ambition and wants to become a wannabe sultan of the world, lol. But Turks are a very weak nation. They don't have any REAL soldiers who want to fight. Turks aren't good fighters. The only warriors in West Asia are Kurds (and Georgians, but there are only 3 million Georgians and 50 million Kurds). All other races can't fight. Kurds belong a true warrior race/stock and nowadays Kurds are only fighting for Great Kurdistan and nobody else. Kurds are only after own interests.

Nobody can destroy the KURDS and the problems in the Middle Easst have to be solved together with the Kurds. Without Kurds there will be never a solution. Kurds and GREAT Kurdistan are the ONLY solution for peace in West Asian.

Goga
26-10-16, 23:44
That is the madness, !!!!
the second time, the Kurds hardly are about to get tottaly indipedence, not partially as Today,
you see him claim Greek Islands, things that not even the most Nationalist Turk dares to speak!!!! :confused2:
He claims Greek islands for Turkey :petrified: , when someone would thought that he claim some indipedence in some Kurdish areas,!!!!!! at least outside Turkey

madnessssss !!!!!!!

:banghead:


The genocide of yezidi is forgoten,
and the attacks to Mossoule at central North Iraq,
and he remember 'sauvereign' over Greek islands ????
where in some islands refugeess and illegal immigrants are even more in number than Greek citizens!!!You fail to understand his sarcasm. :laughing:

My people the Ezdi Kurds will never forget and forgive those who betrayed us and committed a genocide on my people. There are 1 million Ezdi Kurds. Those who tried to destroy us and those who wanted to enslave us, wil be enslaved by Ezdi Kurds for thousands of years to come and not for a few moths like those losers only could do. My people will get their own region / autonomy within Great Kurdistan. By Great Kurdistan I mean all historic Kurdish soil, Kurdistan from western to eastern and from northern to southern parts of Kurdistan.

ihype02
28-10-16, 21:02
This is a mess.

Boreas
29-10-16, 20:23
About Greek Islands

In EU, most of Countries had border issues between each other and countries have to solve it before be a member.

Example: Croatia-Slovenia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia%E2%80%93Slovenia_border_disputes

I guess, during the that period, Erdogan gave up and took back Turkey's demand on those islands for process in EU membership.

The issue mentioned about another political party as well.

http://vatanpartisi.org.tr/english/statements/16-turkish-islands-have-been-occupied-by-greece-13147

And actually they are 25(Yellow)
http://www.stratejikortak.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/ege-adalari.png

BTW, I have just heard about Ziya PIR's speech, and it is not in even top 100 for Turkey now

A. Papadimitriou
29-10-16, 21:41
For god sake, you have thousands and thousands of Island, give them couple. Don't be selfish.

They can have Poland. Alternatively Poland can become a Romani state.

Yetos
29-10-16, 22:31
About Greek Islands

In EU, most of Countries had border issues between each other and countries have to solve it before be a member.

Example: Croatia-Slovenia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia%E2%80%93Slovenia_border_disputes

I guess, during the that period, Erdogan gave up and took back Turkey's demand on those islands for process in EU membership.

The issue mentioned about another political party as well.

http://vatanpartisi.org.tr/english/statements/16-turkish-islands-have-been-occupied-by-greece-13147

And actually they are 25(Yellow)
http://www.stratejikortak.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/ege-adalari.png

BTW, I have just heard about Ziya PIR's speech, and it is not in even top 100 for Turkey now


I agree,
as also agree that it is time the Sykes Picot treaty as was stablished first time, not the second one,


http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/2016/05/blogs/graphic-detail/20160521_wom203_2.png

LeBrok
30-10-16, 00:41
They can have Poland. Alternatively Poland can become a Romani state.
Lol, you didn't get the sarcasm?

Boreas
30-10-16, 07:05
I agree,
as also agree that it is time the Sykes Picot treaty as was stablished first time, not the second one,


You agree what ?

Wasn't

What was your the first approval for?

What is your point about the second one? I don't see any real point without trying to get be angry.
(I was doing case analysis, not sharing own opinion)

Yetos
30-10-16, 08:28
You agree what ?

Wasn't

What was your the first approval for?

What is your point about the second one? I don't see any real point without trying to get be angry.
(I was doing case analysis, not sharing own opinion)


I agree that if there are yellow islands,then we also have blue red zones.

LeBrok
12-06-17, 04:57
And here we go. Iraqi Kurdistan referendum is coming soon on September 25th this year!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan_independence_referendum,_2017

I started this thread 3 years ago, thinking that it will take a year. Lesson is that political things take a long time to fruition. I almost gave up on it, lol. Anyway, way to gooooooo Kurds!!!

Yetos
26-07-17, 23:54
Yup

it seems like we might have a confederation of 5+3 candons/preferactures

some big ones clear Kurdish

and some cities with mixed population will vote.

anyway the certain is that for first time big areas will unite in confederation that will be called Kurdistan

Leandros
01-08-17, 08:48
I hope you will be freed

Yetos
16-10-17, 18:12
and after the referendum

THE BATTLE FOR OIL.

now that' we used' Kurds to fight for us against DAESH
lets kick them back,

the batlle for Kirkuk part 2.
with participation of Of Iranian baxcked militias
even Turkey is bombing by air,


oh boy, International diplomacy, just crap

to use the before 2014 lines, or not?

different rules in Ukraine,
different rules in Kossovo and Bosnia
different rules in Catalania
different rules in Syrria
different rules in North Kurdistan
etc etc



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuZ8uuMbx0E
feeling the lonelyness

LeBrok
17-10-17, 17:04
Are Iraqis going to stop on oil fields or they will try to subdue all the Kurdistan in old Iraq borders?

Where is the West to support the only natural and true ally in Middle East, and biggest nation without own country? It is a shame if not a crime!

Promenade
17-10-17, 17:27
Doesn't make any sense for the west to support Kurdistan and make enemies out of already established(And weakening) allies like Iraq and Turkey. A sensible part of the Kurdistan government seems to be in support of federalism over independence and the withdrawal from Kirkuk (A multi-ethnic city, the majority of the population is a mix of Arab, Assyrian, Turkmen and others, not just Kurdish) and oil fields was pre-planned on some level with the Iraqi government by moderate factions within the KRG.

No, we will not see an independent Kurdistan anytime soon since even the KRG realizes it's a pipe dream given the Turkish, Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi governments will do everything to prevent it and the US and other westerner nations who help train the Peshmerga have all condemned the independence referendum. I don't see the need for Kurdish Independence either considering the land they claim is multi ethnic and would just further destabilize the region. I hope after the ISIS insurgency is deposed of we won't have to worry about the Kurdish one. Iraqi Kurdistan will be established back to it's size before the overthrow of Saddam and the Ba'athists. Also don't be surprised if we see similar events unfold in Rojava by either Turkey or Syria in the near future.

Sile
17-10-17, 17:37
Doesn't make any sense for the west to support Kurdistan and make enemies out of already established(And weakening) allies like Iraq and Turkey. A sensible part of the Kurdistan government seems to be in support of federalism over independence and the withdrawal from Kirkuk (A multi-ethnic city, the majority of the population is a mix of Arab, Assyrian, Turkmen and others, not just Kurdish) and oil fields was pre-planned on some level with the Iraqi government by moderate factions within the KRG.
No, we will not see an independent Kurdistan anytime soon since even the KRG realizes it's a pipe dream given the Turkish, Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi governments will do everything to prevent it and the US and other westerner nations who help train the Peshmerga have all condemned the independence referendum. I don't see the need for Kurdish Independence either considering the land they claim is multi ethnic and would just further destabilize the region. I hope after the ISIS insurgency is deposed of we won't have to worry about the Kurdish one. Iraqi Kurdistan will be established back to it's size before the overthrow of Saddam and the Ba'athists. Also don't be surprised if we see similar events unfold in Rojava by either Turkey or Syria in the near future.
Is that the USA policy, to back stab an ally in the kurds................let us let 25 million kurds die at the hands of these turks and iraqis

Promenade
17-10-17, 17:54
Is that the USA policy, to back stab an ally in the kurds................let us let 25 million kurds die at the hands of these turks and iraqis

Well Sile, causalities are currently only in the dozens so far(Mostly due to miscommunication between the KRG and Peshmerga forces) but if you'd like to see them reach the millions we could always arm the Kurds and provoke them to war against the rest of Iraq for no reason other than to appease westerners who want to see a new country on their maps.

USA armed the Kurds to defeat ISIS and protect the people (Of all ethnicities and creeds) in the region... not to haphazardly fuel an unneeded independence movement of a people who inhabit over half a dozen different nations. Statehood was mentioned no where by the US, we are returning back to the status quo of federalism rather than throwing the middle east into more distress and provoking Turkey and Iraq and other ethnic minorities residing in Kurdistan regions like the Turkmen, Yazidis, Armenians, Assyrians and Arabs.

LeBrok
17-10-17, 20:09
Well Sile, causalities are currently only in the dozens so far(Mostly due to miscommunication between the KRG and Peshmerga forces) but if you'd like to see them reach the millions we could always arm the Kurds and provoke them to war against the rest of Iraq for no reason other than to appease westerners who want to see a new country on their maps.

USA armed the Kurds to defeat ISIS and protect the people (Of all ethnicities and creeds) in the region... not to haphazardly fuel an unneeded independence movement of a people who inhabit over half a dozen different nations. Statehood was mentioned no where by the US, we are returning back to the status quo of federalism rather than throwing the middle east into more distress and provoking Turkey and Iraq and other ethnic minorities residing in Kurdistan regions like the Turkmen, Yazidis, Armenians, Assyrians and Arabs. You managed to miss the wish of millions of Kurds who voted for their independance in referendum. I guess, basic human rights are nothing for you.

Boreas
17-10-17, 20:39
Where is the West to support the only natural and true ally in Middle East, and biggest nation without own country? It is a shame if not a crime!

Only natural ally in Middle East. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

When I was UK, I loved this idiom,

"Great Britain does not have friends, only interest"

So let's be mature.

Kurds could be easliy took more authonomy and even gain authonomy for Ezidi people in Sincar and able to create special statues for Mosul and Kerkuk so these cities wouldn't face any Arabisation policy as in Saddam period.

Maybe Autonomy just in Hassake for Syrian Kurds, not Afrin or Kobani


But now they have nothing,

However I don't think Iraq goverment can move forward previous borders between North Iraq.

Boreas
17-10-17, 20:43
You managed to miss the wish of millions of Kurds who voted for their independance in referendum. I guess, basic human rights are nothing for you.


Same as Russian Crimea yeah...

Promenade
17-10-17, 21:52
You managed to miss the wish of millions of Kurds who voted for their independance in referendum. I guess, basic human rights are nothing for you.

Okay yeah, you can jump straight into the juvenile and try to make some black and white argument here where "everyone who doesn't support self determination is against basic human rights!" but in this situation it's simply bad diplomacy and an awful idea. I see how it is attractive to support a Kurdish state given their secularism in a region torn by religious wars, but their nationalism and misguided irredentism could easily lead to something far worse. It would immediately solidify Iraq as an Iranian proxy and shift Turkey towards the Russian/Iranian axis, not to mention complicate the already complex issue in Syria. The USA already made the mistake of supporting the FSA with many of them ending up becoming Salafists and Al-qaeda affiliates. The Kurds dont exactly have a positive opinion of capitalism and the western market system either and given their history ignoring western pleas it's likely they view cooperation with the US with little enthusiasm beyond collecting the arms we provide them and help with creating their nation state. It's pragmatic and in everyone's best interests for the US to help the Kurds defend themselves against ISIS, it is not pragmatic for the US to bomb Iraq over a non binding referendum while the Iraqis are fighting ISIS themselves and taking back territory that doesnt even belong to the KRG to begin with.

As for the recent skirmishes I dont even think most people here realize that Kirkuk isn't originally part of the KRG nor is it majority Kurdish and that so far Iraq has simply taken back regions that were originally not part of the KRG as specified in their constitution. Someone mentioned the potential of 25 million Kurds dying when there have been very few casualties, there is dialog between the Peshmerga and Iraqi military and the Iraqi government is already based upon federalism and gives the Kurdish people a great deal of autonomy. There is no need to weaken a state that fell to barbarians in Toyota trucks and create a new one with aspirations beyond its borders, they need more unity than division. If holding this opinion somehow makes me scorn human rights then see where an independent Kurdistan takes the western world and the mid east because I'm sure it would lead to a conflict worse than what we saw after the fall of Saddam. I'm glad even the Canadian government had the sanity to denounce the referendum.

Yetos
18-10-17, 00:31
@ promande

watch this video again,



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuZ8uuMbx0E

now instead of a WW2 mother, imagine a temen and a muslim mother,

now go to kid,

What this kid thinks and feel,

his father 'flown the ocean' for what?

and how lonelyness to feel when everybody for centuries,
sais No
No state for you,

WEST and Capitalism is making enemies
those who fought against the theocratic state model

maybe you prefer Theocracy, or bankers Dictatorship, than the old Western 'Free world'

and in Balkans most countries have minorities,
but all minorirties have somewhere a state,

I know enough Kurdish way of thinking through History,
if they kick again their chance, then the next will be in next century.
they kick it many times in past,


When H Kissinger design to blow balkans at 1970's
he said something like that
'the ones who have been supressed will rule and supress their masters'
so do not talk me about USA or West diplomacy and better what is good for capitalism
cause I do not care about Bankers dictatorship.
they earn from that war.

it is a mistake, of the WEST,
not to solve the area problem,

and I repeat
UN is just ridiculous today,
like the Society of nations at 1930's
puppets with high income,
other measures of justice in Crimea and Ukraine
other measures of Justice in Bosnia and Kossovo
other measures of Justice in Catalania
other measures of Justice in N Kurdistan
WEST is just moving 'where the wind blow'
or 'justice is Green' (purple in Europe)

we just manage, to re-divide them again, following the Dogma 'Divide and Conquer', as in past,
but the feeling of lonelyness they got will put more hate against what we call Free world, if it is FREE.

and is not Kirkuk, that matters,
but the way we said to them
'GO BACK HOME, TO YOUR MOUNTAINS, WE DO NOT NEED YOU ANYMORE,
Do Not touch us, you primitive goat breaders'
instead of take them by hand, and help them to create a democratic modern state,

we send them back as not accepted, instead of send them proffeseurs, make them universities,
and teach them how must be a modern state,
and believe me, many of them are high educated,
higher than many WESTern presidents.

LeBrok
18-10-17, 02:51
Okay yeah, you can jump straight into the juvenile and try to make some black and white argument here where "everyone who doesn't support self determination is against basic human rights!" Bingo!!!
https://www.un.org/press/en/2013/gashc4085.doc.htm
http://www.gmu.edu/programs/icar/ijps/vol4_1/takayuki.htm

As for the rest, you can read few first posts of this thread to know my point on the situation.

Promenade
18-10-17, 11:59
See, this is exactly what I meant. Instead of addressing the reality of the situation it’s become a farfetched dichotomy with a loaded question of either being for or against human rights. So I guess western leaders from Trudeau to Macron are all violating human rights when they urge Kurds to stick to the federalist model instead of doing something brash that could further destabilize the region.

The Kurds already have an autonomous state within Iraq, a Prime Minister, full control over their domestic affairs and even their own military. They stand little to gain from declaring an independent state other than sparking war and possibly losing all these things. I think the Kurds in Rojava understand this a lot better and that’s why they are wisely seeking federalism and autonomy rather than statehood.(Although I worry about their future with Turkey looming nearby) They also respect the fact they occupy an ethnically diverse area not solely belonging to the Kurdish people and inhabited by people who don’t want to trade an Alawite domination for a Kurdish one, even if both governments are secular. In a perfect world would there be an independent Kurdish state? Perhaps in a perfect world there would be an independent state for all groups of people who demand it, but in a realistic world all that independence achieves here is further jeopardizing stability in the middle east. In fact I think it would be a greater miracle to see a democratic federalist state achieve some kind of long term functionality in the middle east rather than see Kurdistan break from Iraq.

LeBrok
18-10-17, 17:59
See, this is exactly what I meant. Instead of addressing the reality of the situation it’s become a farfetched dichotomy with a loaded question of either being for or against human rights. So I guess western leaders from Trudeau to Macron are all violating human rights when they urge Kurds to stick to the federalist model instead of doing something brash that could further destabilize the region.

The Kurds already have an autonomous state within Iraq, a Prime Minister, full control over their domestic affairs and even their own military. They stand little to gain from declaring an independent state other than sparking war and possibly losing all these things. I think the Kurds in Rojava understand this a lot better and that’s why they are wisely seeking federalism and autonomy rather than statehood.(Although I worry about their future with Turkey looming nearby) They also respect the fact they occupy an ethnically diverse area not solely belonging to the Kurdish people and inhabited by people who don’t want to trade an Alawite domination for a Kurdish one, even if both governments are secular. In a perfect world would there be an independent Kurdish state? Perhaps in a perfect world there would be an independent state for all groups of people who demand it, but in a realistic world all that independence achieves here is further jeopardizing stability in the middle east. In fact I think it would be a greater miracle to see a democratic federalist state achieve some kind of long term functionality in the middle east rather than see Kurdistan break from Iraq.
There are two separate issues, please notice. One is of political reality type, of what practical action Kurds and the world should take to avoid a war. This is what you are addressing, all the time. I'm fine with this, this is your opinion. However, you are keeping your head in sand when it comes to human rights issue, moral problems, the socio-judicial aspect of human existence. It does exist and need to be addressed.

To open your eyes on invalidity of your argument from couple of posts back:
Perhaps US shouldn't have a right to exist as a country either, because of its mixed ethnical character?
And don't forget, US happened after domestic war against bigger national entity, GB.

ihype02
18-10-17, 19:17
Karma for Armenian genocide. God is real.

Yetos
18-10-17, 20:52
Karma for Armenian genocide. God is real.

hm

or karma from the times of Sykes-Piquot

Yetos
18-10-17, 22:06
See, this is exactly what I meant. Instead of addressing the reality of the situation it’s become a farfetched dichotomy with a loaded question of either being for or against human rights. So I guess western leaders from Trudeau to Macron are all violating human rights when they urge Kurds to stick to the federalist model instead of doing something brash that could further destabilize the region.

The Kurds already have an autonomous state within Iraq, a Prime Minister, full control over their domestic affairs and even their own military. They stand little to gain from declaring an independent state other than sparking war and possibly losing all these things. I think the Kurds in Rojava understand this a lot better and that’s why they are wisely seeking federalism and autonomy rather than statehood.(Although I worry about their future with Turkey looming nearby) They also respect the fact they occupy an ethnically diverse area not solely belonging to the Kurdish people and inhabited by people who don’t want to trade an Alawite domination for a Kurdish one, even if both governments are secular. In a perfect world would there be an independent Kurdish state? Perhaps in a perfect world there would be an independent state for all groups of people who demand it, but in a realistic world all that independence achieves here is further jeopardizing stability in the middle east. In fact I think it would be a greater miracle to see a democratic federalist state achieve some kind of long term functionality in the middle east rather than see Kurdistan break from Iraq.


Hρακλειτος , Heraclitus of Ephessos,
said something about chance, oportunity, occasion

Ποταμώ ουκ έστιν εμβήναι δις τω αυτώ
meaning you can not enter for second time to the same river, cause river change.

and
Ήθος ανθρώπω δαίμων
character is faith of human.

I respect your opinion,
Although I do not share it,
I believe that West must help them to make their first steps to an open democratic and free country,
otherwise, it is like tell them, you are not a worthy nation,

their previous 'river' was the times of Sykes Piquot,
they lost it,
now they have the chance to enter the same but another 'river',
their character is their faith,

and I agree with you that a new state will make a new power there,
something that Bankers and many corporations do not want,
and they might even get into a civil war, tribes vs tribes or party vs party since they might have no occupation forces,
BUT ISN"T THAT HAPPENING IN WEST?

I still insist that WEST has a chance to make a new democracy there,
away from the protypes of typical Middle east dictators of previous era,
and produce a more open country as a frontier to radical Islamic-theocratic forces,
we must take them by hand, and lead them,
not kick them back,
or say to them, ''yes you did help us but now that we don't need you more, you are unwanted''.

and whatever result, I believe West must build universities, free thinking centers, embassies, open new trade routes,
powerplants, etc etc

we own to them, they don't.

Boreas
18-10-17, 22:57
to people who has pure dream, but not rationality

How they gave referandum realism
"68 out of 111 lawmakers attended the session with Gorran boycotting it"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan_independence_referendum,_2017#cite _note-43

Barzani is Kurdish Erdoğan or other type of Middle Eastern dictator.

Garrick
19-10-17, 00:02
to people who has pure dream, but not rationality


Rationality in terms:

What is good for Turkey it is rationality.

Otherwise (for example in Kurdish case) it is a dream.

Yetos
19-10-17, 01:26
to people who has pure dream, but not rationality

How they gave referandum realism
"68 out of 111 lawmakers attended the session with Gorran boycotting it"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan_independence_referendum,_2017#cite _note-43

Barzani is Kurdish Erdoğan or other type of Middle Eastern dictator.


No matter Erdogan is a strange personality,
He is elected, and his 'power' has a time limit, every few years.
that is why although I admit that Erdogan is a strange person,
I supported him against the military actions few years before,
it is a good start to understand what is Democracy,
which is not always perfect.
and yes democracy can easily be cheated,
and some may easily turn it to a strange form,
but even this have a time limit and elections

Boreas
19-10-17, 07:08
Rationality in terms:What is good for Turkey it is rationality.Otherwise (for example in Kurdish case) it is a dream.I explain my thought in the previous posts "Kurds could be easliy took more authonomy and even gain authonomy for Ezidi people in Sincar and able to create special statues for Mosul and Kerkuk so these cities wouldn't face any Arabisation policy as in Saddam period." I am lefting to you to think that how much good these for Turkey.and totally yes, if declaration of independence now is the issue, it is a dream.
No matter Erdogan is a strange personality,He is elected, and his 'power' has a time limit, every few years.Erdoğan could't be a leader in his party after the his second term then he elected as president then he changed entire system of the country and brought presidence system, because in the previous system president didn't have power.when the issue is power, your immagination is very low. Barzani also needed to left his seat, but because of ISIS, he didn't and this referandum was just a cheap populist act.
that is why although I admit that Erdogan is a strange person,I supported him against the military actions few years before,??? Do you mean comedy show of military coup ?
it is a good start to understand what is Democracy,which is not always perfect.and yes democracy can easily be cheated,and some may easily turn it to a strange form,but even this have a time limit and electionsAbout Democracy,The biggest argument against democracy is a five minute discussion with the average voter.–Winston ChurchillEven very fasict, extreme-nationalist people form each minority, wants to be independence. The real humanism is find the way to life in together same as Bosnian students... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40352486http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-40681165/bosnia-s-pupils-fight-ethnically-divided-educationHowever is it over, notSame as Quebec or Scotland they held referandums and people who wants to independence lost the referandum but some of them still want it. so similar with Kurds, especially South Kurdistan who has already taste of authonomy. They won't stop. There are just a few country had a chance to take their independence with law, so independence mostly was gained, not given. Just stop dramatize the issue more then it is. The drama was Ezidi womens' situations, not the Iraq taking over own land. If they move more to Erbil, yes it will be drama. I hope, it won't.All I said is, it was not the time

Yetos
19-10-17, 07:37
I explain my thought in the previous posts "Kurds could be easliy took more authonomy and even gain authonomy for Ezidi people in Sincar and able to create special statues for Mosul and Kerkuk so these cities wouldn't face any Arabisation policy as in Saddam period." I am lefting to you to think that how much good these for Turkey.and totally yes, if declaration of independence now is the issue, it is a dream. Erdoğan could't be a leader in his party after the his second term then he elected as president then he changed entire system of the country and brought presidence system, because in the previous system president didn't have power.when the issue is power, your immagination is very low. Barzani also needed to left his seat, but because of ISIS, he didn't and this referandum was just a cheap populist act.??? Do you mean comedy show of military coup ?About Democracy,The biggest argument against democracy is a five minute discussion with the average voter.–Winston ChurchillEven very fasict, extreme-nationalist people form each minority, wants to be independence. The real humanism is find the way to life in together same as Bosnian students... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40352486http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-40681165/bosnia-s-pupils-fight-ethnically-divided-educationHowever is it over, not Same as Quebec or Scotland they held referandums and people who wants to independence lost the referandum but some of them still want it. so similar with Kurds, especially South Kurdistan who has already taste of authonomy. They won't stop. There are just a few country had a chance to take their independence with law, so independence mostly was gained, not given. Just stop dramatize the issue more then it is. The drama was Ezidi womens' situations, not the Iraq taking over own land. If they move more to Erbil, yes it will be drama. I hope, it won't.All I said is, it was not the time

the Yezidi is another story,
recognised and protected even by ridiculous UN

Promenade
24-10-17, 14:34
Lebrock the comparison you make here is questionable, but I also understand the argument you are making here. The problem here I've already outlined, essentially it would do more harm than good for the Kurds to become an independent state. They can still exercise freedom as a people within the structure of an Iraqi state. Anything more would be harmful to geopolitics and the Middle East specifically.

Yetos
21-04-18, 23:57
oh boy

US h. Truman is moving to Syrria,
the elite of US navy and airforce (aircarrier)

3 more Russian ships passed Helespontos today.

huge force is gathered there,

and is growing,

raspberry
15-07-18, 13:39
God preserve. :embarassed:

...I was searching for a specific thread (with the "great" searching function) and randomly saw this, could not hold back my opinion.