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motzart
19-06-14, 16:22
I think it would be interesting to have a discussion on the Y DNA relationship with the 4 modern races of humans (Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Australoid).

From what I have been reading here is my basic understanding.

Haplogroup A and B I wouldn't say technically are Negroid but represent an even earlier divergence, Haplogroup A being bushmen, B being pygmies.

Haplogroup C's migration out of Africa represents an Australoid type human (Australian Aboriginie).

Haplogroups E & D represent the Negroid race.

Haplogroup F represents the Proto Caucasoid/Mongoloid migration out of Africa.

The Caucausoid/Mongoloid split happens with the IJ/K split, K migrating to Asia and becoming Mongoloid, IJ remaining in the Fertile Crescent becoming Caucausoid. Haplogroup G & H also Caucasoid.

Descendants of K (R1a,R1b, a few Q, a few N), and some E clades migrate back into Caucasoid areas and become Caucasoid over time from mixing.

oriental
19-06-14, 21:15
There are no races. Diet and environment affected appearances and bone structure. The genes only maintain the current arrangement for a few generations but they move to new area and adopt new diet they change.

Chimpanzees didn't have black skin. When they lost the hair the sun darkened the skin and eating meat expanded the brain of the bipedal chimpanzee to a new specie - homo sapien.

motzart
19-06-14, 22:09
There are no races. Diet and environment affected appearances and bone structure. The genes only maintain the current arrangement for a few generations but they move to new area and adopt new diet they change.

Chimpanzees didn't have black skin. When they lost the hair the sun darkened the skin and eating meat expanded the brain of the bipedal chimpanzee to a new specie - homo sapien.

There are definitely different races of humans, they teach this in Anthropology and Indigenous studies classes at Canadian Universities :D, I know because I have taken one.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/HM-Hsr.jpg/1920px-HM-Hsr.jpg

Nobody1
19-06-14, 22:28
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/HM-Hsr.jpg/1920px-HM-Hsr.jpg

Judging by this map Hg E has to be split into Hamitic (East African) and Congoid (Negroid/West African) with Hg A and Hg B being most def. also Negroid; And judging by the studies not certain that original Hg I qualifies for being Caucasoid based on that Anthropology and Pigmentation; If such links even exist (and i dont think so);

Fire Haired14
19-06-14, 22:52
I think it would be interesting to have a discussion on the Y DNA relationship with the 4 modern races of humans (Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Australoid).

From what I have been reading here is my basic understanding.

Haplogroup A and B I wouldn't say technically are Negroid but represent an even earlier divergence, Haplogroup A being bushmen, B being pygmies.

Haplogroup C's migration out of Africa represents an Australoid type human (Australian Aboriginie).

Haplogroups E & D represent the Negroid race.

Haplogroup F represents the Proto Caucasoid/Mongoloid migration out of Africa.

The Caucausoid/Mongoloid split happens with the IJ/K split, K migrating to Asia and becoming Mongoloid, IJ remaining in the Fertile Crescent becoming Caucausoid. Haplogroup G & H also Caucasoid.

Descendants of K (R1a,R1b, a few Q, a few N), and some E clades migrate back into Caucasoid areas and become Caucasoid over time from mixing.

You are assuming there are simply 4 pure branches of humanity, when it is probably much more complicated. You should first research the history of the haplogroups and then try to connect them to large general groups known through autosomal DNA like African, Eurasian, east Eurasian, west Eurasian. You'll confuse yourself if you try to fit haplogroups into large human classifications which we don't know if they exist and if they do what their origin is. Even though all of Y DNA K's clades are pretty much exclusive to non-west Eurasian people, one of its descendants Y DNA P probably originated in early west Eurasians. This is because Y DNA K originated when the autosomal split between west and east Eurasians had no occurred.

Fire Haired14
19-06-14, 22:54
There are no races. Diet and environment affected appearances and bone structure. The genes only maintain the current arrangement for a few generations but they move to new area and adopt new diet they change.

Chimpanzees didn't have black skin. When they lost the hair the sun darkened the skin and eating meat expanded the brain of the bipedal chimpanzee to a new specie - homo sapien.

There are differnt general groups, and you can call them whatever you would like.

motzart
19-06-14, 23:33
You are assuming there are simply 4 pure branches of humanity, when it is probably much more complicated. You should first research the history of the haplogroups and then try to connect them to large general groups known through autosomal DNA like African, Eurasian, east Eurasian, west Eurasian. You'll confuse yourself if you try to fit haplogroups into large human classifications which we don't know if they exist and if they do what their origin is. Even though all of Y DNA K's clades are pretty much exclusive to non-west Eurasian people, one of its descendants Y DNA P probably originated in early west Eurasians. This is because Y DNA K originated when the autosomal split between west and east Eurasians had no occurred.

I think Haplogroup P would have looked like Haplogroup Q and very Mongoloid, same with Haplogroup R. I think it probably changed autosomally during its migration back towards Europe. There is no way that every single other subclade of K was Mongoloid but not R. You R1a/b friends have Chinese grandpas :D

oriental
20-06-14, 01:35
You R1a/b friends have Chinese grandpas

Chinese and IndoEuropean are just language groups that are later constructs just as Semites. There were no Chinese 10,000 years ago nor IndoEuropeans nor Semites just hunter-gatherers. The Bible said bad things about "Hamitic" people based on false human history. What do you know turns out that many Jews (also a construct which came only four thousand years ago) are of Haplogroup E (African) so are they Hamitic? Hittites (Haplogroup R1b) according to the Bible are Hamitic. All this classification are later constructs based on appearance. Economics, Anthropology, psychology are 'soft sciences' and cause the most problems for society with socially destructive and bad concepts.

epoch
22-06-14, 12:03
There are no races. Diet and environment affected appearances and bone structure. The genes only maintain the current arrangement for a few generations but they move to new area and adopt new diet they change.

Chimpanzees didn't have black skin. When they lost the hair the sun darkened the skin and eating meat expanded the brain of the bipedal chimpanzee to a new specie - homo sapien.

That is a load of poppycock. Even if it was merely "diet and environment affecting appearances and bone structure" then still it would be biologically correct to talk about races.

Fire Haired14
22-06-14, 15:18
I think Haplogroup P would have looked like Haplogroup Q and very Mongoloid, same with Haplogroup R. I think it probably changed autosomally during its migration back towards Europe. There is no way that every single other subclade of K was Mongoloid but not R. You R1a/b friends have Chinese grandpas :D

Y DNA P has been found in two Upper Palaeolithic Siberians who were west Eurasian(ANE) and every modern populations with Y DNA P has some west Eurasian ancestry(specifically ANE) and most have no signs of east Asian ancestry,

motzart
22-06-14, 20:56
Y DNA P has been found in two Upper Palaeolithic Siberians who were west Eurasian(ANE) and every modern populations with Y DNA P has some west Eurasian ancestry(specifically ANE) and most have no signs of east Asian ancestry,

So somehow Men with Y Haplogroups O, N , and P(Q) all evolved into the same Mongoloid race independently and somehow P(R) did not? Impossible.

The most reasonable scenario is that the R1 subclades (or proto R1) originated as Mongoloid and bred with Caucasoid women in Central Asia, Near East, and Europe as they migrated there diluting their own original genetic makeup until they became a hyrbrid majority Caucasoid. The pure Caucasoid form has a Dolichocephalic(Long) headshape and the pure Mongoloid has a brachycephalic(Wide) headshape, in central Europe we see a Mesocephalic headshape(Mixture between the two) and Dolicephalic prevaling in the more remote regions (North Sea/Scandinavia), this fits the introduction and dilution of a Bracephalic genepool from East Asia. Neolithic farmers and indigenous europeans could not explain the Mesocephalic headshape in central europe as both groups would have been homogenous Caucasoid/Dolicephalic.

The interesting part of the puzzle now I think is pigmentation, we know that the indigenous hunter gatherers were Dark Skinned but had the blue eye trait, Neolithic Farmers had the Light Skin Allele but can't explain red/blonde hair.

Seems like Modern Europeans are the result of mixing :
Mongoloid R1a/b carrying the MC1R mutation for red hair and possibly blonde hair with Light Skinned Caucasoid farmers in the Near East, then further mixing of these people with more Dark Skinned Caucasoid HGs in Europe. This fits the theory of light skin evolving in tandem with origin of farming. Somewhere in there we have the first Neolithic farmers spreading their light skin genes into the dark skinned HGs of Europe with the LBK, but this probably didn't have the same impact the Indo-Europeans did on the genepool who probably brought much more light skin and mixed much more.

To label them with haplogroups:

R1a/R1b mix with Neadertals in Siberia picking up traits for red/blonde hair (MC1R) which exist unexpressed.
R1a/R1b men mix with mtDNA H women in the Near east picking up the light skin gene (SLC24A5).

Fire Haired14
22-06-14, 21:45
So somehow Men with Y Haplogroups O, N , and P(Q) all evolved into the same Mongoloid race independently and somehow P(R) did not? Impossible.

You are making this more simple than it really is. We don't really know what Caucasoid and Mongoloid are yet, they are probably multiple things(we know all modern west Eurasians have none west Eurasian ancestry from 'basal Eurasians"). The common ancestor of NO and P probably existed before the west and east Eurasian split. We know that through ancient DNA that 45,000 years ago in western Siberia there were people who were equally related to east and west Eurasians. So even if the common ancestor of NO and P gave rise to east Asians, one branch(P) could have mixed with people who did not give rise to east Asians and the carriers of P could have become western autosomally, like early carries of mtDNA U and Y DNA IJ.

24,000 years old Siberian MA-1 had Y DNA R, mtDNA U, and was a pure west Eurasian with no evidence at all of east Asian ancestry. 17,000YBP Siberian AG2 had Y DNA P, mtDNA R*, was probably a pure west Eurasians and had no signs of east Asian ancestry. Siberians and Native Americans have high amounts of Y DNA Q but they also have some west Eurasian ancestry(around 20% for many Siberians and 40% for native Americans), specifically from MA-1's people, while there are plenty of west Eurasian people like Polish and Irish with high amounts of Y DNA P but no signs of east Asian ancestry. Y DNA Q probably did not originate in Siberia or a people with mainly east Asian ancestry, it is a terrible assumption that it's a "mongoloid" haplogroup.


The most reasonable scenario is that the R1 subclades (or proto R1) originated as Mongoloid and bred with Caucasoid women in Central Asia, Near East, and Europe as they migrated there diluting their own original genetic makeup until they became a hyrbrid majority Caucasoid. The pure Caucasoid form has a Dolichocephalic(Long) headshape and the pure Mongoloid has a brachycephalic(Wide) headshape, in central Europe we see a Mesocephalic headshape(Mixture between the two) and Dolicephalic prevaling in the more remote regions (North Sea/Scandinavia), this fits the introduction and dilution of a Bracephalic genepool from East Asia. Neolithic farmers and indigenous europeans could not explain the Mesocephalic headshape in central europe as both groups would have been homogenous Caucasoid/Dolicephalic.

I don't know enough about the subject to say anything but I do know there is no evidence on Y DNA, mtDNA, or autosomal DNA of widepsread east Asian ancestry in Europe.

The interesting part of the puzzle now I think is pigmentation, we know that the indigenous hunter gatherers were Dark Skinned but had the blue eye trait, Neolithic Farmers had the Light Skin Allele but can't explain red/blonde hair.

Seems like Modern Europeans are the result of mixing :
Mongoloid R1a/b carrying the MC1R mutation for red hair and possibly blonde hair with Light Skinned Caucasoid farmers in the Near East, then further mixing of these people with more Dark Skinned Caucasoid HGs in Europe. This fits the theory of light skin evolving in tandem with origin of farming. Somewhere in there we have the first Neolithic farmers spreading their light skin genes into the dark skinned HGs of Europe with the LBK, but this probably didn't have the same impact the Indo-Europeans did on the genepool who probably brought much more light skin and mixed much more.

To label them with haplogroups:

R1a/R1b mix with Neadertals in Siberia picking up traits for red/blonde hair (MC1R) which exist unexpressed.
R1a/R1b men mix with mtDNA H women in the Near east picking up the light skin gene (SLC24A5).[/QUOTE]

It is a big stretch to have such a strong opinion on this pigmentation connection when you're not an educated expert. How do you explain Finnish being the most blonde people in Europe and having low amounts of Y DNA R1? Y DNA R1a and R1b became widespread and popular in Europe in the last 5,000 years, and you're forgetting about west Asians who also have a high amount(plus R1b probably originated in west Asia some 20,000 years ago).

oriental
22-06-14, 22:21
load of poppycock

Cameroons are they negroid? They have haplogroup R1b. They look negroid. Race is just a intermediate state. It is like a child classifying cars by the color and looks.

Sile
22-06-14, 23:12
So somehow Men with Y Haplogroups O, N , and P(Q) all evolved into the same Mongoloid race independently and somehow P(R) did not? Impossible.

The most reasonable scenario is that the R1 subclades (or proto R1) originated as Mongoloid and bred with Caucasoid women in Central Asia, Near East, and Europe as they migrated there diluting their own original genetic makeup until they became a hyrbrid majority Caucasoid. The pure Caucasoid form has a Dolichocephalic(Long) headshape and the pure Mongoloid has a brachycephalic(Wide) headshape, in central Europe we see a Mesocephalic headshape(Mixture between the two) and Dolicephalic prevaling in the more remote regions (North Sea/Scandinavia), this fits the introduction and dilution of a Bracephalic genepool from East Asia. Neolithic farmers and indigenous europeans could not explain the Mesocephalic headshape in central europe as both groups would have been homogenous Caucasoid/Dolicephalic.

R1a/R1b mix with Neadertals in Siberia picking up traits for red/blonde hair (MC1R) which exist unexpressed.
R1a/R1b men mix with mtDNA H women in the Near east picking up the light skin gene (SLC24A5).

Did'nt you read the latest paper !!............N and O split ( T and L also split ) from K before P was formed.
P was formed in South-east Asia

question is ...was R formed from P in South -east Asia or did R form once P back tracked to india, Persia or afghanistan .

N and O could already have departed northwards before P returned ( if that's the scenario )

Fire Haired14
22-06-14, 23:35
Cameroons are they negroid? They have haplogroup R1b. They look negroid. Race is just a intermediate state. It is like a child classifying cars by the color and looks.

R1b is a Y DNA haplogroup so just a paternal lineage. Cameroon's have a high amount of R1b is because of a founder effect(same for west Europeans, ~50% trace back to one super grandfather who lived around 5,000 years ago). There is a similar situation in the Finno-Urgics of northeastern Europe, the vast majority of them have an east Asian paternal lineage but almost all of their ancestry is west Eurasian. You could have a population who is 99.9% Han Chinese but 100% of the them have an Irish paternal lineage, because of a founder effect.


Race is just a intermediate state. It is like a child classifying cars by the color and looks.

The common ancestors of all humans alive today did not suddenly stop stop evolving and developing distinct genetic markers. If you ignore the differences between human populations you are driven by fear not logic.

There is no official definition of the word race. Different physical appearances is a result of differnt ancestry. You can call human populations with differnt ancestry differnt races or whatever you want, but there is differnt ancestry and therefore according to some definitions of the word race you can say there is a such thing as race. Physical appearance is a good way to discover differnt ancestry but of course DNA is much better. Even back in the 1800's many knew that there was a such thing as Caucasoid/west Eurasian and Mongoloid/east Asian(proving studying physical appearance can be useful), which we know through DNA is correct but probably has a complicated origin.

Kristiina
24-06-14, 14:18
Y DNA P has been found in two Upper Palaeolithic Siberians who were west Eurasian(ANE) and every modern populations with Y DNA P has some west Eurasian ancestry(specifically ANE) and most have no signs of east Asian ancestry,
That East-Asian component that is missing in Mal’ta boy must belong to people who stayed south of North China during the Ice Age. These people started to expand to the north only when the climate got warmer and more hospitable in the northern areas. We must remember that Mal’ta boy who carried yDNA R and Afontova Gora man who probably carried yDNA Q seem not have been Caucasoids in the usual sense of the word, as Pavel M. Dolukhanov in his article ”Archaeology and Languages in Prehistoric Northern Eurasia” refers to Debetz (1946) who identified the remains of “nothern Asian Mongoloids” at the site of Afontova Gora 2; they included a fragment of the frontal bone. Mongoloid features had been originally acknowledged in the skeletal remains of a child found at the site of Malta; and to Alexeev (1998, 323) who in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this area was “inhabited by a population of Mongoloid appearance.” Moreover, we all know that Native Americans belong to the Mongoloid race and they inhabited Northeast Asia at a very early date. I think that it is obvious that Mongoloid features are autochtonous to Siberia and not only a result of post-Ice Age mixing with people from China.

LeBrok
24-06-14, 17:00
That East-Asian component that is missing in Mal’ta boy must belong to people who stayed south of North China during the Ice Age. These people started to expand to the north only when the climate got warmer and more hospitable in the northern areas. We must remember that Mal’ta boy who carried yDNA R and Afontova Gora man who probably carried yDNA Q seem not have been Caucasoids in the usual sense of the word, as Pavel M. Dolukhanov in his article ”Archaeology and Languages in Prehistoric Northern Eurasia” refers to Debetz (1946) who identified the remains of “nothern Asian Mongoloids” at the site of Afontova Gora 2; they included a fragment of the frontal bone. Mongoloid features had been originally acknowledged in the skeletal remains of a child found at the site of Malta; and to Alexeev (1998, 323) who in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this area was “inhabited by a population of Mongoloid appearance.” Moreover, we all know that Native Americans belong to the Mongoloid race and they inhabited Northeast Asia at a very early date. I think that it is obvious that Mongoloid features are autochtonous to Siberia and not only a result of post-Ice Age mixing with people from China.
Interesting post Kristiina, and Welcome to Eupedia.

epoch
24-06-14, 19:06
Cameroons are they negroid? They have haplogroup R1b. They look negroid. Race is just a intermediate state.

Yes they are. Yet their *fatherly* line descents, if you go back far enough, from someone from the Middle-East. However, autosomal DNA shows they are definitively African negroids.


It is like a child classifying cars by the color and looks.

No, it's not just color and looks. Even if color and looks can be deceiving they are not worthless and useless. One could have mistakenly considered aboriginals akin to Africans (Although, if you look well they don't look alike at all). However, cranium types are considered heritable and are used in attempts to show (lack of) kinship between archeological finds. There is also clear genetic differences, as the numerous ADMIXTURE runs show. Also, check dodecads Global 13.

http://dodecad.blogspot.nl/2012/10/globe13-participant-results.html
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Xal68HraeTs/UJBfD1d2CoI/AAAAAAAAAzU/yvTVW2WNvLQ/s1600/1_2.png

oriental
24-06-14, 21:18
I think this genetic trail is over simplified. I could imagine there were a lot of Haplogroup P people and covered large territories. One P person might not have had all the sons with the Q and R mutations but the guy in the north had a son with R and another P guy living in the northwest Siberia had a son with N while other P people were still living in Southest Asia. Just like today N,O Q and R people cover large territories.

Kristiina
25-06-14, 08:51
Thank you LeBrok! Here you have more hard evidence on racial characteristics of Palaeolithic Siberians: “V. P. Alekseev discussed the racial types of the Altai-Sayan uplands during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. On the basis of geological and palaeo-climatic evidence, he feels that the initial human settlement of the area could have taken place as far back as the Lower Palaeolithic (which in Soviet usage includes the Mousterian). Judging by the Afontova Gora II cranial fragment, the Upper Palaeolithic population evidently must be assigned to the Mongoloid race. The Europeoid component begins to penetrate into certain areas during the Neolithic -especially into the southern part of the Krasnoyarsk Territory. Alekseev identifies in this latter area a morphologically Negroid type which would indicate contact with_ southern regions. In the Afanasievo period the Europeoid component becomes predominant, while the physical similarity of the Afanasievo population with that of the ancient Yamno culture of the South Russian steppes evidences their kinship as well as the western origin of the bulk of the Afanasievo population.”

-History of Humanity: Prehistory and the beginnings of civilization edited by Sigfried J. de Laet
“The other site is Afontova Gora near the City of Krasnoyarsk on the Yenisei. During excavation of a section of this site in 1937 participants in the Seventeenth International Geological Congress discovered a fragment of a child’s skull in the Upper Palaeolithic cultural layer; fortunately it was a piece of the frontal bone around the glabella, with fragments of the nasal bones attached. The flatness of the glabella is an important feature that differentiates modern Caucasians from Mongoloids. Remarking on the flatness of this part of the fragment, Debetz (1946) demonstrated that the fragment had belonged to a Mongoloid. The Afontova fragment is significant in that it shows that, while the Caucasian complex of features in the Upper Palaeolithic population of eastern Europe took shape, as we have seen, in morphological features dissimilar to those of contemporary Caucasians, such a fundamental distinctive feature of the modern representatives of the Mongoloid races as the flat glabella had already formed during the Upper Palaeolithic in northern Asia.”

-Encyclopedia of Prehistory: Arctic and Subarctic, Volume 6 edited by Peter Neal Peregrine, Melvin Ember
“Hominid remains dating to the Late Upper Palaeolithic have been found at Afontova Gora II and Novoselovo VI. The remains from Afontova Gora II were found during excavations in the early 1990, and consist of a humerus, radius, ulna and phalanx from a modern human adult and an upper premolar from a modern human juvenile. A few decades later, a frontal cranial fragment of a juvenile modern human was found eroding from the exposed stratigraphic profile of the site. Palaeoanthropologists who have studied these remains consider them to bear “Mongoloid” characteristics. The Novoselovo VI fossil is a fragment of a mandible presumed to have come from a modern human female. ” I think that it is very important to note that these tested Afontova Gora and Malta individuals did not have any East Asian ancestry and were genetically mainly western Eurasian (excluding the Near Eastern ancestry component, as far as I know).

Fire Haired14
25-06-14, 10:22
Testing......

Angela
25-06-14, 16:28
Or, rather, is the "East Asian" component as it exists today a later admixture formed from the ancient ANE populations of northern Eurasia with this later appearing element from the southeast. After all, we know from recent work on Europeans that admixture like or "calculator" like components in Europeans are admixtures of various more ancient strata. Why should the "East Asian" component be any different?

Population change happened in the east as well as in Europe. Certainly, this recent paper about East Asians indicates just that.
Nonmetric dental traits and the origin of East Asians:
http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/06/nonmetric-dental-traits-and-origin-of.html

" Principal findings indicated a major dichotomization of the dataset into (1) an early Southeast Asian sample with close affinities to modern Australian and Melanesian populations and (2) a very distinct grouping of ancient and modern Northeast Asians. Distinct patterns of clinal variation among Neolithic and post-Neolithic Mainland Southeast Asian samples suggest a center to periphery spread of genes into the region from Northeast Asia. This pattern is consistent with archaeological and linguistic evidence for demic diffusion that accompanied agriculturally driven population expansion in the Neolithic. Later Metal Age affinities between Island and Mainland coastal populations with Northeast Asian series is likely a consequence of a South China Sea interaction sphere operating from at least 500 BCE, if not from the Neolithic. Such results provide extensive support for the two-layer hypothesis to account for the population history of the region."

As concerns Afontova Gora and Mal'ta, I was aware of those papers, and I don't understand, if indeed the analysis was correct, what is so surprising about the findings, given their age and location. Who says that those traits did not go into the current "East Asian" population precisely from that area? So far as I can tell from the research and the discussions, it seems far from settled exactly where they developed. I also wonder about those descriptions of "Negroid" elements. I haven't read the original papers, so bear with me on this, but were they "Negroid" or Australoid and Melanesian like? Perhaps someone should give those remains another look. Given what we are learning about the flow of population from south east Asia back to northern Asia, isn't that a possibility?

Maleth
25-06-14, 20:07
Haplogroups E & D represent the Negroid race.



Isnt Haplogroup D predominant of East Asia? How can it represent Negroid race?

Kristiina
26-06-14, 08:29
Yes, indeed! Recent genetic evidence (Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) shows that there has been a major gene flow from east to west during the Upper Palaeolithic. Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.

As for yDNA P, its route to Siberia is a higly exciting issue. However, provided that the analysis of the morphological traits of Afontova Gora and Mal’ta individuals is correct - and I am now deliberately provocative - the current ancient evidence in Siberia and America is as follows:

Mal’ta boy, 24 kya, yDNA R, mtDNA U, Mongoloid race
Afontova Gora man, 17 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA R, Mongoloid race
Anzick boy, 12.5 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA D4, with all probability of Mongoloid race
Saqqaq man, 4 kya, yDNA Q1a*, mtDNA D2a1 (D4e1), with all probability of Mongoloid race

Let’s see if yDNA C pops up some day somewhere in pre-Ice Age Siberian burials.

Sile
26-06-14, 08:49
Yes, indeed! Recent genetic evidence (Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) shows that there has been a major gene flow from east to west during the Upper Palaeolithic. Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.

As for yDNA P, its route to Siberia is a higly exciting issue. However, provided that the analysis of the morphological traits of Afontova Gora and Mal’ta individuals is correct - and I am now deliberately provocative - the current ancient evidence in Siberia and America is as follows:

Mal’ta boy, 24 kya, yDNA R, mtDNA U, Mongoloid race
Afontova Gora man, 17 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA R, Mongoloid race
Anzick boy, 12.5 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA D4, with all probability of Mongoloid race
Saqqaq man, 4 kya, yDNA Q1a*, mtDNA D2a1 (D4e1), with all probability of Mongoloid race

Let’s see if yDNA C pops up some day somewhere in ancient Siberian burials.

you need to prove that (K2 group), when the P haplogroup formed in modern Malaya/Borneo area, that .............did it back track in a NW and northern path.......Before the forming of R from P.
or did R form in this south-east asian area before moving.

You also recall that the K1 group ( L, T, N and O ) never reached south-east asia and formed prior to P arrival in south-east asia.

Unless P exploded in population growth in south-east asia, I cannot see how your theory stacks as a high percentage outcome.
N and O clearly began migrating northwards at least 10000 years before P could return

motzart
26-06-14, 16:23
Yes, indeed! Recent genetic evidence (Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) shows that there has been a major gene flow from east to west during the Upper Palaeolithic. Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.

As for yDNA P, its route to Siberia is a higly exciting issue. However, provided that the analysis of the morphological traits of Afontova Gora and Mal’ta individuals is correct - and I am now deliberately provocative - the current ancient evidence in Siberia and America is as follows:

Mal’ta boy, 24 kya, yDNA R, mtDNA U, Mongoloid race
Afontova Gora man, 17 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA R, Mongoloid race
Anzick boy, 12.5 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA D4, with all probability of Mongoloid race
Saqqaq man, 4 kya, yDNA Q1a*, mtDNA D2a1 (D4e1), with all probability of Mongoloid race

Let’s see if yDNA C pops up some day somewhere in pre-Ice Age Siberian burials.

Thank you for your awesome contribution to this thread Kristiina!

I hope the Ust Ishim paper gives a great insight into the migrations of mongoloids into central Asia. It would be very interesting to see if their proposed date would be prior to or contemporaneous with the rise of the first Mesopotamian civilizations.

epoch
26-06-14, 21:06
Yes, indeed! Recent genetic evidence (Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) shows that there has been a major gene flow from east to west during the Upper Palaeolithic. Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.

As for yDNA P, its route to Siberia is a higly exciting issue. However, provided that the analysis of the morphological traits of Afontova Gora and Mal’ta individuals is correct - and I am now deliberately provocative - the current ancient evidence in Siberia and America is as follows:

Mal’ta boy, 24 kya, yDNA R, mtDNA U, Mongoloid race
Afontova Gora man, 17 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA R, Mongoloid race
Anzick boy, 12.5 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA D4, with all probability of Mongoloid race
Saqqaq man, 4 kya, yDNA Q1a*, mtDNA D2a1 (D4e1), with all probability of Mongoloid race

Let’s see if yDNA C pops up some day somewhere in pre-Ice Age Siberian burials.

Yet not a trace of East-Asian autosomical DNA in Mal'ta. Now, the mongolid features always were highly disputed - Almost all features that are allegedly perceived in ancient skulls are, mind you, just recall the Grimaldi negroid features - so I consider the total absence of that autosomical DNA decisive.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

epoch
26-06-14, 21:44
17,000YBP Siberian AG2 had Y DNA P, mtDNA R*, was probably a pure west Eurasians and had no signs of east Asian ancestry.



Afontova Gora man, 17 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA R, Mongoloid race


For all I know Afontova Gora 2 was contaminated and the authors kept out data, which meant that Y/MT DNA haplogroup could be determined.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1656-Afontova-R1a/page4


Unfortunately, the Afontova Gora-2 sample was highly contaminated with modern DNA (as indicated in Supplementary information section 5). Hence, the only analysis we could use it for was PCA, and that too after filtering for damaged reads. By filtering for damaged reads I mean, selecting those DNA molecules which show a cytosine to thymine base change, which is characteristic of ancient DNA damage. By performing such a filtering, we can be somewhat certain that we have by and large only kept behind sequences that are ancient in origin i.e. belonging to the ancient skeleton. Such an approach of filtering was not possible for mtDNA and Y sequences because the depth of coverage (how many reads cover each base) was very low. Any filtering meant that we would lose practically all data on the mt/Y. Hence, it was not possible to determine the haplogroups for this sample.

matbir
27-06-14, 00:29
Yes, indeed! Recent genetic evidence (Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) shows that there has been a major gene flow from east to west during the Upper Palaeolithic. Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.

As for yDNA P, its route to Siberia is a higly exciting issue. However, provided that the analysis of the morphological traits of Afontova Gora and Mal’ta individuals is correct - and I am now deliberately provocative - the current ancient evidence in Siberia and America is as follows:

Mal’ta boy, 24 kya, yDNA R, mtDNA U, Mongoloid race
Afontova Gora man, 17 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA R, Mongoloid race
Anzick boy, 12.5 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA D4, with all probability of Mongoloid race
Saqqaq man, 4 kya, yDNA Q1a*, mtDNA D2a1 (D4e1), with all probability of Mongoloid race

Let’s see if yDNA C pops up some day somewhere in pre-Ice Age Siberian burials.
Also there are few signs of non mongoloid people in Siberia whose characteristic seem to be caucasian.
1. Paleolithic evidence: Kennewick Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man). Skeleton of caucasian male 9500 years old found in Kennewick in Washington USA in 1996.
2. Ainu people seem to look more caucasoid then mongoloid.
3. Ket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ket_people) people's (hunter gatherers from Siberia) race is rather caucasian similar to Ainu, with some mongoloid admixture, then pure mongoloid (same as most of Native Americans).
I would recommend the lecture of Dr. Edward Vadja on Kets: here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2e4M7T4c)

JS Bach
27-06-14, 01:08
@Kristiina: You may be right. However, I'm going to offer a different prediction, based on my understanding of the genetic evidence, and on points others have made in this thread. I predict:

Mal'ta boy, Caucausoid
Afontova Gora man, Caucausoid
Anzick boy, 75% Mongoloid - 25% Caucausoid
Saqqaq man, Mongoloid

Fire Haired14
27-06-14, 02:59
Yes, indeed! Recent genetic evidence (Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) shows that there has been a major gene flow from east to west during the Upper Palaeolithic. Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.

You're giving Europeans(Mixture of three highly divergent stone age (Mainly from same western root)populations) to much esteem by using them to represent what should always be called west Eurasian. Y DNA P's(Became popular in Europe because of founder effects in the last 5,000 years) ancestors probably lived before the autosomal west-east split and so the fact(probably) it made a migration from southeast Asia to central Asia and existed in early west Eurasians isn't evidence of Upper Paleolithic east-west admixture. If the Tianyuan man is closely related to west and east Eurasians it is probably because he is over 40,000 years old, and the only common ancestry he is revealing between west and east Eurasians and Eurasian ancestry.


As for yDNA P, its route to Siberia is a higly exciting issue. However, provided that the analysis of the morphological traits of Afontova Gora and Mal’ta individuals is correct - and I am now deliberately provocative - the current ancient evidence in Siberia and America is as follows:

Mal’ta boy, 24 kya, yDNA R, mtDNA U, Mongoloid race
Afontova Gora man, 17 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA R, Mongoloid race
Anzick boy, 12.5 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA D4, with all probability of Mongoloid race
Saqqaq man, 4 kya, yDNA Q1a*, mtDNA D2a1 (D4e1), with all probability of Mongoloid race

Let’s see if yDNA C pops up some day somewhere in pre-Ice Age Siberian burials.

MA1 and AG2 were culturally and genetically west Eurasian, with no east Asian ancestry. DNA beats what a Soviet said nearly 100 years ago about skeletal remains. All we know is that AG2 had Y DNA P it is possibly he had Q1a1 but not enough Y SNPs got results to be sure.

motzart
27-06-14, 03:42
My R1b friends seem to be in denial about their Chinese grandpas. It is alright just add another label onto the Aryan-Celto-Germanic-Mongoloid heroes of ancient history LOL.

Angela
27-06-14, 04:01
As I stated above, part of this discussion is predicated on whether the physical anthropology analysis that was done is correct. It probably has to be revisited.

Also, as another poster has noted, the yDNA classification for AG is highly questionable.

As far as these samples being "Mongoloid", I'm personally not comfortable with assigning modern "racial" categories to specimens that are this old. Even if the traits do now appear in East Asians, does it make the original carriers, whomever they were, or all ancient carriers, East Asian, or Mongoloid?

I have a somewhat similar objection to saying that Mal'ta is "West-Eurasian" because there is no "East Asian" in autosomal admixture analyses. As I said above, isn't "East Asian" a later cluster formed by the merging of two groups originally from southeast Asia, one of which, ANE, merely arrived earlier and might have been a population where different phenotypic traits had appeared? I think this entire classification of these very ancient samples into "West Eurasian" and "East Eurasian" is very questionable.

Fire Haired14
27-06-14, 04:02
My R1b friends seem to be in denial about their Chinese grandpas. It is alright just add another label onto the Aryan-Celto-Germanic-Mongoloid heroes of ancient history LOL.

What would make you think this? I have nothing against having an east Asian paternal lineage but the facts are I don't.

Fire Haired14
27-06-14, 04:27
Also, as another poster has noted, the yDNA classification for AG is highly questionable.

His Y DNA P result makes sense, but his mtDNA R* result doesn't.


As far as these samples being "Mongoloid", I'm personally not comfortable with assigning modern "racial" categories to specimens that are this old. Even if the traits do now appear in East Asians, does it make the original carriers, whomever they were, or all ancient carriers, East Asian, or Mongoloid?

Our best bet is that if an ancient population has distinct skeletal features only certain modern populations have is that the ancient population and the modern population got it from the same ancestral source, but of course we should always be open to other explanations. Native Americans and east Asians have many of the same facial features even though native American's ancestors last lived in east Asia over 20,000 years ago. Every stone age European skull I have heard of that is not from early Upper Palaeolithic had the same basic Caucasoid skull shapes as do modern west Eurasians, and we know through ancient DNA they were basically west Eurasians.


I have a somewhat similar objection to saying that Mal'ta is "West-Eurasian" because there is no "East Asian" in autosomal admixture analyses. As I said above, isn't "East Asian" a later cluster formed by the merging of two groups originally from southeast Asia, one of which, ANE, merely arrived earlier and might have been a population where different phenotypic traits had appeared? I think this entire classification of these very ancient samples into "West Eurasian" and "East Eurasian" is very questionable.

Admixture results for MA1 say he is a totally mix of many modern ancestral components which is probably because his people contributed alleles to those components. Admixtures are not good for testing the ancestry of some ancient populations especially Upper Paleolithic ones because the components in the admixtures are probably much younger than the ancient individual. As far as I remember Laz showed that all east Asians are equally related to west Eurasians, except native Americans who are more related to west Eurasians than other east Asians are, and Olade 2014 found that MA1 is more related to La Brana-1(clearly fits as being west Eurasian) than to any modern populations, and Laz found that ANE ancestry in west Asians causes them to be more related to Loschbour. It appears to me that MA1 and Mesolithic Europeans came from the same west Eurasian source while "Near eastern ancestry" is a mix of something very related to WHG and "basal Eurasians". This can explain why MA1 is so related to La Brana-1 and why ANE ancestry causes west Asians to be more related Loschbour.

I have been studying other things lately, so I don't know much about MA1's west Eurasianism. My definition of west Eurasian is very broad and I think it is most likely the common source of WHG-west Asian brother and ANE.

Sile
27-06-14, 09:19
You're giving Europeans(Mixture of three highly divergent stone age (Mainly from same western root)populations) to much esteem by using them to represent what should always be called west Eurasian.

How can P be west-eurasian if it 's origins are south-east asia?

the only west-eurasians are I, J, T, L .............maybe N and O also before they drifted northwards and north-easterly

Why are you so anti easterner ? ..............Whats wrong with being eastern...............its not the eastern of today if that concerns you

Let me know about where your R originated ...........was it also SE-Asia or much later when the SE-Asian P back tracked to the Pamir region

Sile
27-06-14, 09:20
My R1b friends seem to be in denial about their Chinese grandpas. It is alright just add another label onto the Aryan-Celto-Germanic-Mongoloid heroes of ancient history LOL.

I think some must be in denial

Kristiina
27-06-14, 10:52
Fire Haired14, genetic ancestry cannot supersede skeletal morphological traits as an indicator of race! They complement each other. Yes, we cannot be sure that Afontova Gora was Q, but we can still conclude that autosomally 0% East Asian or Siberian Afontova Gora individuals had sinodont dental pattern, as Christy G. Turner II and G. Richard Scott describe in their recent book (2007) that “two sites west of Lake Baikal have physical anthropological signs of Mongoloid or Sinodonty. These are the Late Pleistocene Yenisei River sites in and near Krasnoyarsk. In the city is Afontova Gora ... “.

My hunch is that racial traits usually predate successful yDNA’s. It seems that yDNA P was first negrito. When it ended up in India, it probably became ASI-like, when it ended up in Siberia, it acquired Siberian traits and when it finally arrived in Europe, it became Caucasoid. Probably, this same pattern is shared by all successful yDNA haplogroups.

Ainu do not share any yDNA or mtDNA with Caucasoids. As for Kennewick man, Anthropologist Joseph Powell concluded that Kennewick man "is clearly not a Caucasoid unless Ainu and Polynesians are considered Caucasoid." Kennewick man is not particularly old, it dates from 7300 to 7600 B.C. Anzick is remarkably older. Kennewick man may well represent a small group of people who managed to settle in the Northwest U.S. from or north of Japan and who became extinct.

epoch
27-06-14, 16:13
Fire Haired14, genetic ancestry cannot supersede skeletal morphological traits as an indicator of race! They complement each other. Yes, we cannot be sure that Afontova Gora was Q, but we can still conclude that autosomally 0% East Asian or Siberian Afontova Gora individuals had sinodont dental pattern, as Christy G. Turner II and G. Richard Scott describe in their recent book (2007) that “two sites west of Lake Baikal have physical anthropological signs of Mongoloid or Sinodonty. These are the Late Pleistocene Yenisei River sites in and near Krasnoyarsk. In the city is Afontova Gora ... “.

My hunch is that racial traits usually predate successful yDNA’s. It seems that yDNA P was first negrito. When it ended up in India, it probably became ASI-like, when it ended up in Siberia, it acquired Siberian traits and when it finally arrived in Europe, it became Caucasoid. Probably, this same pattern is shared by all successful yDNA haplogroups.

Ainu do not share any yDNA or mtDNA with Caucasoids. As for Kennewick man, Anthropologist Joseph Powell concluded that Kennewick man "is clearly not a Caucasoid unless Ainu and Polynesians are considered Caucasoid." Kennewick man is not particularly old, it dates from 7300 to 7600 B.C. Anzick is remarkably older. Kennewick man may well represent a small group of people who managed to settle in the Northwest U.S. from or north of Japan and who became extinct.

That exact same passage that you quote mentions that Mal'ta does not display sinodonty but European-like teeth. Furthermore if you read the actual passage you'll notice that it mentions that Afontova is considered mongolid not because of sinodonty but due to nasal bones.


..there only a few sites in Siberia with Late Pleistocene human remains. One, near Lake Baikal, called Mal'ta, seems to have European- rather than Asian-like teeth (Turner 1990b). Two sites west of Lake Baikal have physical anthropological signs of Mongoloid or Sinodonty. These are the Late Pleistocene Yenisei River sites in and near Krasnoyarsk. In the city is Afontova Gora, the riverbank section from which came a fragment of a subadult frontal bone that the late Russian physical antropologist Alekseev (1998) believed to have been Mongolid because of the size and the form of the adhering nasal bones.

http://tinyurl.com/lh7383n


(http://books.google.nl/books?id=vhoRdbTrjc8C&pg=PA1933&lpg=PA1933&dq=sinodonty+mal%27ta&source=bl&ots=iJ5DOI-mt-&sig=q0PJR4ZE51hooMNC4LgGkBm1mDQ&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=DHutU5HiOuaX1AXnv4DACQ&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=sinodonty%20mal%27ta&f=false)

matbir
27-06-14, 16:21
My hunch is that racial traits usually predate successful yDNA’s. I fully share this opinion. Y chromosome is just tiny fraction of genome, while racial traits are determined by many genes.

Ainu do not share any yDNA or mtDNA with Caucasoids. As for Kennewick man, Anthropologist Joseph Powell concluded that Kennewick man "is clearly not a Caucasoid unless Ainu and Polynesians are considered Caucasoid." Kennewick man is not particularly old, it dates from 7300 to 7600 B.C. Anzick is remarkably older. Kennewick man may well represent a small group of people who managed to settle in the Northwest U.S. from or north of Japan and who became extinct.
1. Ainu are pure east Asians genetically and they haven't mongoloid features. I just described them as caucasian like race to make link between them Kets and Native Americans, last two groups have the highest percentage of haplogroup Q, while similar to them Ainu have none. Ainus and Polynesians are eastern most version of western Eurasian phenotype. It doesn't mean the they are caucasoid, but they resembles them much more in comparison to surrounding mongoloids, negritos and australoids.
2. Kennewick man is younger, but it is just enough to prove that non mongoloids lived in Siberia prior to their migration to North America.:wink:
3. Prove that this first wave of immigration to America had become extinct. In my opinion they contributed to modern Native Americans to create racial picture distinct from eastern Asian one.
Here are some materials to comparison racial makeup of some nations considered to be mongoloid:
1. Mongoloid - Yakuts (Russian Wikipedia) eastern Siberia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/%D0%AF%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%82%D1%8B_%28%D0%A1%D0%B0%D1% 85%D0%B0%29.JPG
2. Mongoloid - Buriats (Wikipedia) central-south Siberia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Buryat_Notable_People.png
3. Mongoloid - Nentes (Wikipedia) north-western Siberia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Ru200008050079.jpg
4. Mongoloid? - Ket people: Russian video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmdB7kpHW0U)
pictures from Wikipedia:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Ket_man_1914.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Ket_boy_1914.jpg
5. Ainuid? - Ainu people (source (http://pateljal.com/2012/07/01/3-things-not-to-do-when-you-visit-the-ainu-people/))
http://pateljal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/ainu-elder-japan_13991.jpg
6. Mongoloid - Cree (Wikipedia)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Bobtail.jpg

I guess that in Paleolithic there were more races then we know today.

Angela
27-06-14, 16:28
@Kristiina
How have the remains of LaBrana, and particularly Loschbour man, been classified?

epoch
27-06-14, 19:00
Well, I've been looking on the internet and the find near Afantova Gora that does show dental features that seem related to Asians is the Listvenka child, a child's mandible found nearby. It would be very interesting to see either the dating or DNA extracted from it. In this find the permanent molars, which if I understand correctly are crucial to determine sinodonty, had not yet erupted. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if this means that one can't or can determine sinodonty, though.


http://tinyurl.com/k6y2pp3

Kristiina
27-06-14, 21:09
Well, I've been looking on the internet and the find near Afantova Gora that does show dental features that seem related to Asians is the Listvenka child, a child's mandible found nearby. It would be very interesting to see either the dating or DNA extracted from it. In this find the permanent molars, which if I understand correctly are crucial to determine sinodonty, had not yet erupted. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if this means that one can't or can determine sinodonty, though.




The passage behind the link goes “Listvenka is one of the very few Pleistocene Siberian sites where human remains have been found. In this case the find was a fragment of a child’s lower jaw. The unerupted lower first permanent molars had features more commonly found in Northeast Asian Sinodonts, and less frequently in Eurodonts.”
Then there is a nice photo with a text:
“The Listvenka child’s permanent lower first molars, mesial surface at the top. These pristine unerupted teeth exhibit two morphological traits commonly found in Modern Asian populations, but rarely in European populations. They are (1) the deflecting wrinkle, and (2) the occurrence of cusp 6. Two other but less diagnostic traits that favour an Asian affiliation are (3) the protostylid pit, and (4) the absence of cusp 7. Hence, the Listvenka child has a higher probability of having had a late Pleistocene Asian, rather than European, affiliation.”
It may not be conclusive evidence, but it is hard evidence anyway.

epoch
27-06-14, 21:14
4. Mongoloid? - Ket people: Russian video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmdB7kpHW0U)


One of the most interesting things in this video, of which I did not understand a word, was the dolls they wrap in cloth. I know from several sources that these are regarded as deities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ket_people


Of great importance to Kets are dolls, described as "an animal shoulder bone wrapped in a scrap of cloth simulating clothing." [20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ket_people#cite_note-20) One adult Ket, who had been careless with a cigarette, said, "It's a shame I don't have my doll. My house burnt down together with my dolls."[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ket_people#cite_note-21) Kets regard their dolls as household deities, which sleep in daytime and protect them at night.[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ket_people#cite_note-22)


If we were to regard Siberians as a mixture of the most Eastern part of ice age West-Eurasians and Mongolids it could very well be that the dolls found at the Mal'ta site actually are similar to these.

It is an utter wild guess but hey... this is a forum.

http://donsmaps.com/malta.html

epoch
27-06-14, 21:30
The passage behind the link goes “Listvenka is one of the very few Pleistocene Siberian sites where human remains have been found. In this case the find was a fragment of a child’s lower jaw. The unerupted lower first permanent molars had features more commonly found in Northeast Asian Sinodonts, and less frequently in Eurodonts.”
Then there is a nice photo with a text:
“The Listvenka child’s permanent lower first molars, mesial surface at the top. These pristine unerupted teeth exhibit two morphological traits commonly found in Modern Asian populations, but rarely in European populations. They are (1) the deflecting wrinkle, and (2) the occurrence of cusp 6. Two other but less diagnostic traits that favour an Asian affiliation are (3) the protostylid pit, and (4) the absence of cusp 7. Hence, the Listvenka child has a higher probability of having had a late Pleistocene Asian, rather than European, affiliation.”
It may not be conclusive evidence, but it is hard evidence anyway.

Kristiina, the Mal'ta boy showed *European-like* teeth. Nowadays the original population of the area clearly is mongolid. Admixture runs confirm this; it clearly shows an east-Asian component in (almost?) all mongolid populations. So, somewhere in between Mal'ta (24.000 year ago) and now the population should become more Asian. I would be perfectly fine if someone would prove to me that Afantova was mongolid. The American Indians clearly are at least partly mongolid and the majority theory states that around 14.000 years ago these crossed the Bering straight. That means the mixture between the two should have happened at least before that date. Since Afontova is dated 17.000 years old I would not at all be surprised if it actually showed some mongolid features.

On the other hand, Afontova is quite a western part of the east, so Afontova might have been still "pure" ANE.

I just want to point out that calling Afontova mongolid is simply not possible. The DNA is too contaminated, the find is not decisive enough. However, Mal'ta boy is a better source. His teeth are European - A fact that I derived from your article - and he shows none of the admixture that all of the mongolid people seem to share.

If Mal'ta boy was an mongolid the DNA extraction wouldn't be such a spectacular find. It is the very fact that he is clearly non-mongolid but still shows very clearly that he is part of the ancestral population of the American-Indians which made this find such a stunning one.

epoch
27-06-14, 21:51
It may not be conclusive evidence, but it is hard evidence anyway.

I would like to add the following question: Evidence to what exactly?

MOESAN
27-06-14, 23:33
Yes, indeed! Recent genetic evidence (Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) shows that there has been a major gene flow from east to west during the Upper Palaeolithic. Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.

As for yDNA P, its route to Siberia is a higly exciting issue. However, provided that the analysis of the morphological traits of Afontova Gora and Mal’ta individuals is correct - and I am now deliberately provocative - the current ancient evidence in Siberia and America is as follows:

Mal’ta boy, 24 kya, yDNA R, mtDNA U, Mongoloid race
Afontova Gora man, 17 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA R, Mongoloid race
Anzick boy, 12.5 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA D4, with all probability of Mongoloid race
Saqqaq man, 4 kya, yDNA Q1a*, mtDNA D2a1 (D4e1), with all probability of Mongoloid race

Let’s see if yDNA C pops up some day somewhere in pre-Ice Age Siberian burials.


where did you read Mal'ta boy was definitey mongoloid? Im interested?

Aberdeen
28-06-14, 01:48
I'd be surprised if Mal'ta Boy could be clearly defined as Mongoloid or Caucasian - I'm not sure such categories would apply to people from such an early period. We now have definite categories, after thousands of years of separation of different ethnic groups, but occasionally we still see among Europeans people who look rather "Asian", such as the Icelandic singer Bjork. I'll bet if we knew her DNA info, it would be either a typical "European" type or else would be one of those categories that are still found in Europe although now rare, but people like that represent a physical type that I think would have probably been pretty much the norm in Europe prior to the Neolithic.

Fire Haired14
28-06-14, 02:22
I'd be surprised if Mal'ta Boy could be clearly defined as Mongoloid or Caucasian - I'm not sure such categories would apply to people from such an early period. We now have definite categories, after thousands of years of separation of different ethnic groups, but occasionally we still see among Europeans people who look rather "Asian", such as the Icelandic singer Bjork. I'll bet if we knew her DNA info, it would be either a typical "European" type or else would be one of those categories that are still found in Europe although now rare, but people like that represent a physical type that I think would have probably been pretty much the norm in Europe prior to the Neolithic.

The Mal'ta boy was just a toddler so it will probably be hard to tell if his skull shape was more mongoloid or Caucasoid. The Caucasoid and Mongoloid skull shapes certainly existed before the LGM, evidence if native Americans-east Asians, northeast Europeans(~70% hunter gatherer)-south Asians-west Asians, because they have distant ancestry that mostly traces to the same source in the Upper Palaeolithic. I am pretty sure Mesolithic and Upper Palaeolithic Europeans(15,000 year old cave carvings (https://www.google.com/search?q=la+marche+cave+carvings&biw=1366&bih=673&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=1QiuU4ShBemysQSUiYHgDQ&ved=0CBwQsAQ)) had the basic Caucasiod skull shape. Maybe ANE people split so early from WHG-west Asian brothers that they did not share the same Caucasoid skull shape, which can explain why native Americans don't have many signs of Caucasoid features. Why would this Icelandic singer Bjork have a totally different genetic makeup than the average Icelander? That is simply impossible, especially considering how recently Icelanders ancestors arrived in Iceland. You're theory that her type was norm in Europe before the Neolithic(you're assuming common features have a more recent origin than rare features) is pure speculation and honestly impossible. If your idea was true we would already know because there are plenty of old Neolithic skeletons the experts study. If it was true why did the Caucasoid type become dominate in Balts(~70% hunter, ~30% farmer) and Sardinians(~70% farmer, ~30% hunter) who share only very distant Mesolithic and Neolithic ancestry and have opposite percentages of farmer and hunter ancestry.

epoch
28-06-14, 10:06
Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.



I'd be surprised if Mal'ta Boy could be clearly defined as Mongoloid or Caucasian - I'm not sure such categories would apply to people from such an early period. We now have definite categories, after thousands of years of separation of different ethnic groups, but occasionally we still see among Europeans people who look rather "Asian", such as the Icelandic singer Bjork. I'll bet if we knew her DNA info, it would be either a typical "European" type or else would be one of those categories that are still found in Europe although now rare, but people like that represent a physical type that I think would have probably been pretty much the norm in Europe prior to the Neolithic.

The 40.000 year old Tianyuan man clearly came from a population that was ancestral to "many present-day Asians and Native Americans but postdated the divergence of Asians from European".

http://www.mpg.de/6842535/dna-Tianyuan-cave
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/01/ancient-dna-from-tianyuan-cave.html

Revisions in mutation rate have suggested that suggested dates for important moments in human history such as the splits between major populations should be set back:

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/09/a-slower-mutation-rate-has-implications.html

More at Dienekes, the divergence between Africans and non-Africans as well as the divergence between West Eurasians and East Asians might have taken place in Africa itself before migrations:

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2014/05/msmc-preprint-schiffels-and-durbin.html


This is the most intriguing part of this preprint as it suggests that European/East Asian genetic differentiation may not only be due to the their post-UP divergence, but also to older strands of ancestry. Such deep differentiation may be related to the ~100kya settlement of the Near East (but not East Asia) by anatomically modern humans and the recent evidence for a deep "Basal Eurasian" lineage in Europeans but not East Asians.

EDIT: I should add that I also found a blog post by Robert Frost doubting the dating of Tianyuan:

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/when-was-split.html

Maju shows that conclusions about the affinity of Tianyuan aren't all that straight forward as may be concluded from above quotes.

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.nl/2013/01/tianyuan-mtdna-b-and-formation-of-far.html

Kristiina
28-06-14, 10:08
As I said, I was deliberately provocative. In reality, I do not suggest that Malta boy looked like Northern or Southern Chinese, but he surely didn’t look like a modern Eastern European either. Among populations of the world, Selkups, Kets and Khantys are closest to Malta. If we would like to imagine what he looked like, we should google for these people. However, I am sure that they have recently mixed with people from Eastern Europe, so I do not believe that, for example, blondism is old in Siberia.

Please look at the K16 results of the Malta boy (Eurogenes Another look at the Lazaridis et al. ancient genomes preprint, January 8, 2014)
Cream colour (ANE?) c. 37%
Blue (European) c. 23%
Dark green (Northern Amerind) c. 10%
Brown (Chippewyan Amerind) c. 10%
Light blue (Onge) c. 10%
Light green (ASI) c. 7%
Blue green (Karitiana) c. 3%
I wonder if that 17% ASI and Onge ancestry represents Malta boy’s yDNA R’s trail from Southeast Asia to Siberia through India. Alekseev’s Negroid elements could be quite conveniently linked with ASI and Onge components, although the skeletons that Alekseev analyzed were Neolithic. On the other hand, the fact that the Malta boy had European style teeth could indicate a mixture with people from Europe. His Amerind ancestry is considerable, but it is mainly northern Amerind ancestry. I wonder if this is an indication that there were several migrations to America and Malta boy’s population is related, in particular, to a northern migration.

According to Dodecad V3 run, I score 1.22% Southeast Asian, 1.24% South Asian and 5.65% Northeast Asian and my Eurogenes ANE percentage is 18.8%. So, my Western Siberian ancestry might be in 12% range.

Epoch, please read carefully Dienekes post “Paleoamericanodyssey tweets on 24,000-year old Mal'ta Siberian” (October 18, 2013).

Kristiina
28-06-14, 10:18
More at Dienekes, the divergence between Africans and non-Africans as well as the divergence between West Eurasians and East Asians might have taken place in Africa itself before migrations:

LINK [/QUOTE]

Well, then also Indians diverged from West Eurasians in Africa, and, since we know now that yDNA P originates in Southeast Asia, his clan must belong to that East Asian group! :-)

epoch
28-06-14, 10:56
Epoch, please read carefully Dienekes post “Paleoamericanodyssey tweets on 24,000-year old Mal'ta Siberian” (October 18, 2013).

Kristiina, provide links and state what you want to say with them.

Kristiina
28-06-14, 11:20
I would like to add the following question: Evidence to what exactly?

... that the Listvenka child has a higher probability of having had a late Pleistocene Asian, rather than European, affiliation.

Salbrox
28-06-14, 11:23
Among populations of the world, Selkups, Kets and Khantys are closest to Malta.


Eskimos are closer to Malta than all of those people.

Kristiina
28-06-14, 12:00
Eskimos are closer to Malta than all of those people.

True, I found the following list in Maju's comment on Eurogenes blog (March 8, 2014):

PS- Also in fig. SI 21 (shared drift with Ma1), the sorted scores after NAs [Native Americans] are:

1. Naukan (East Siberian)
2. Ket (West Siberian)
3. Lithuanians
4. LSFIN
5. Russians
6. Estonians
7. Mordovians
8. Chutki (East Siberian)
9. FIN
10. Khanty (West Siberian)
11. Maris
12. Selkup (West Siberian/NE European)
13. Koryak (East Siberian)
14. Shors (Altai)
15. Orcadians
16. Ukrainians
17. Tundra Nentai
18. CEU
19. Hungarians
20. Kalash

Wow, I am a LSFIN and I am on the 4th post in affinity with Ma1! :-)

Aberdeen
28-06-14, 12:53
As I said, I was deliberately provocative. In reality, I do not suggest that Malta boy looked like Northern or Southern Chinese, but he surely didn’t look like a modern Eastern European either. Among populations of the world, Selkups, Kets and Khantys are closest to Malta. If we would like to imagine what he looked like, we should google for these people. However, I am sure that they have recently mixed with people from Eastern Europe, so I do not believe that, for example, blondism is old in Siberia.

Please look at the K16 results of the Malta boy (Eurogenes Another look at the Lazaridis et al. ancient genomes preprint, January 8, 2014)
Cream colour (ANE?) c. 37%
Blue (European) c. 23%
Dark green (Northern Amerind) c. 10%
Brown (Chippewyan Amerind) c. 10%
Light blue (Onge) c. 10%
Light green (ASI) c. 7%
Blue green (Karitiana) c. 3%
I wonder if that 17% ASI and Onge ancestry represents Malta boy’s yDNA R’s trail from Southeast Asia to Siberia through India. Alekseev’s Negroid elements could be quite conveniently linked with ASI and Onge components, although the skeletons that Alekseev analyzed were Neolithic. On the other hand, the fact that the Malta boy had European style teeth could indicate a mixture with people from Europe. His Amerind ancestry is considerable, but it is mainly northern Amerind ancestry. I wonder if this is an indication that there were several migrations to America and Malta boy’s population is related, in particular, to a northern migration.

According to Dodecad V3 run, I score 1.22% Southeast Asian, 1.24% South Asian and 5.65% Northeast Asian and my Eurogenes ANE percentage is 18.8%. So, my Western Siberian ancestry might be in 12% range.

Epoch, please read carefully Dienekes post “Paleoamericanodyssey tweets on 24,000-year old Mal'ta Siberian” (October 18, 2013).

I think you're quite mistaken, and that you're arguing backwards, timewise. In genetic terms, Mal'ta Boy wasn't actually 37% ANE, 23% European, 10% Northern Amerind, etc. He was part of a group of people who were ancestral to folks in those categories. As such, one might expect him to have a mixture of "European" and "Asian" features. And, while I think that one shouldn't be too rigid about the classification of the facial features of a young child, I believe he was described as supposedly have a mixture of European and Mongolian body and skull structure. I think that in order to get an idea of what Mal'ta Boy and others in his family may have looked like, it's helpful to look at various tribal groups in modern day Siberia and Amerindian people in the Americas. Of course, many Amerindian people in the Americas are actually racially mixed. But even among those who are not, there are a variety of facial features, with some having facial features that we might see as "Oriental", especially in South and Central America, and others having more "European" features, especially in North America. But others don't really fit into either category and I think that was probably what Mal'ta Boy and his clan looked like - not really "Oriental" or "European". And I think we tend to try to classify Amerindian people as looking either "Oriental" or "European" because those are the categories we think of, but such labeling is often not really accurate. Similarly, there are still a few Europeans who have facial features that we might describe as being "Asian" simply because we don't have a descriptor such as "Paleolithic features".

Kristiina
28-06-14, 13:38
I think you're quite mistaken, and that you're arguing backwards, timewise. In genetic terms, Mal'ta Boy wasn't actually 37% ANE, 23% European, 10% Northern Amerind, etc. He was part of a group of people who were ancestral to folks in those categories.

I am aware that it is also true that way, but if that is the only possible direction of gene flow, then we should conclude that there has been an important gene flow from Siberia to ASI and Onge which I do not find plausible.

Aberdeen
28-06-14, 13:58
I am aware that it is also true that way, but if that is the only possible direction of gene flow, then we should conclude that there has been an important gene flow from Siberia to ASI and Onge which I do not find plausible.


Okay, I'll concede that Mal'ta Boy's clan wasn't necessarily directly ancestral to all those groups, but their ancestors were. They would not have been descended from ANE or European groups that didn't yet exist. We don't yet know all the details of how people whose ancestors first left Africa ended up in Siberia, but we do know that they proceeded certain categories of people who only developed later as a result of various admixtures. And while there probably were differences in anatomy and facial structure among the folks who first left Africa, they probably wouldn't have fit into modern categories such as "Oriental" or "European". IMO, it's a mistake to try to extrapolate into the past on the basis of the present with respect to things like racial categories.

LeBrok
28-06-14, 16:34
More at Dienekes, the divergence between Africans and non-Africans as well as the divergence between West Eurasians and East Asians might have taken place in Africa itself before migrations:

LINK

Well, then also Indians diverged from West Eurasians in Africa, and, since we know now that yDNA P originates in Southeast Asia, his clan must belong to that East Asian group! :-)
@Dienekes
I think it is so much easier to assume that divergence of out of Africa humans started when they mixed with local hominids (Homo Erectus). There was Neanderthal, Denisovan and definitely more to come, especially the one missing with typical mongoloid traits.

epoch
28-06-14, 17:50
... that the Listvenka child has a higher probability of having had a late Pleistocene Asian, rather than European, affiliation.

But still it can not be called *conclusive* evidence. The upper jaw, where tell tale signs of sinodonty can be found, is missing. No mentioning of molars with two rather than three roots.

But let us, for the sake of the argument, hold that Afontova and Listvenka have a Asian rather than European affiliation. And let us base that on this dental record. I think Listvenka's age is slightly younger than AG-2. Mal'ta, which is almost twice as old, has European teeth. According to the same logic the *original* ANE had a late Pleistocene European, rather than Asian affiliation.

That would still place haplogroup R* in a West-Eurasian population.

It will be interesting to see Ust-Ishim.

Sile
28-06-14, 21:41
That would still place haplogroup R* in a West-Eurasian population.

.

Where is your proof that haplogroup R is west-Eurasian, when its documented that R's founding Haplogroup P is South-east Asian ?

The only proven west-eurasian haplogroups that came out of K haplogroup are I, J, T, L, N and O ..............P is not

Fire Haired14
28-06-14, 23:28
Where is your proof that haplogroup R is west-Eurasian, when its documented that R's founding Haplogroup P is South-east Asian ?
Geography and genetics are not the same thing. Y DNA R is not east Asian and most likely originated in what we call west Eurasians, evidence is an Upper Palaeolithic Siberian who was autosomally west Eurasian with no traces of east Asian ancestry had Y DNA R, every population with Y DNA P has some west Eurasian, and not to mention all of Y DNA R's basal clades R1, R2, paragroup R*(it exists in west and south Asia) originated around west Eurasia or south Asia in Upper Palaeolithic times. The ancestors of Y DNA P were probably not east Asian or west Eurasian, but autosomally were still in the ancestral form.
[QUOTE=Sile;434632]The only proven west-eurasian haplogroups that came out of K haplogroup are I, J, T, L, N and O ..............P is not

None of those haplogroups have been "proven" to be west Eurasian. No one here knows exactly what west Eurasian is. You should not come to such strong conclusions without studying the evidence very much.

Fire Haired14
28-06-14, 23:36
I think you're quite mistaken, and that you're arguing backwards, timewise. In genetic terms, Mal'ta Boy wasn't actually 37% ANE, 23% European, 10% Northern Amerind, etc. He was part of a group of people who were ancestral to folks in those categories. As such, one might expect him to have a mixture of "European" and "Asian" features. And, while I think that one shouldn't be too rigid about the classification of the facial features of a young child, I believe he was described as supposedly have a mixture of European and Mongolian body and skull structure. I think that in order to get an idea of what Mal'ta Boy and others in his family may have looked like, it's helpful to look at various tribal groups in modern day Siberia and Amerindian people in the Americas. Of course, many Amerindian people in the Americas are actually racially mixed. But even among those who are not, there are a variety of facial features, with some having facial features that we might see as "Oriental", especially in South and Central America, and others having more "European" features, especially in North America. But others don't really fit into either category and I think that was probably what Mal'ta Boy and his clan looked like - not really "Oriental" or "European". And I think we tend to try to classify Amerindian people as looking either "Oriental" or "European" because those are the categories we think of, but such labeling is often not really accurate. Similarly, there are still a few Europeans who have facial features that we might describe as being "Asian" simply because we don't have a descriptor such as "Paleolithic features".

You're confusing the facts. MA1 in admixtures scores in various components because his relatives contributed ancestry to many people NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE AN ANCESTRAL POPULATION OF EURASIANS. MA1 was specifically most related to Mesolithic Europeans, he had sometype of connection with what we call WEST EURASIAN. How many times do I have to say this for crying out loud. Aberdeen you should actually read the studies about MA1's DNA before coming up with your wild theories which are based on your fantasies that the Eurasian splits and modern racial features are recent developments.

Sile
29-06-14, 00:20
Where does it say its origin is west-Eurasian when its parent is south-east asian, do you have proof?

I never said R is Eastasian, I said R's parent is South-east asian


[QUOTE=Sile;434632]Where is your proof that haplogroup R is west-Eurasian, when its documented that R's founding Haplogroup P is South-east Asian ?
Geography and genetics are not the same thing. Y DNA R is not east Asian and most likely originated in what we call west Eurasians, evidence is an Upper Palaeolithic Siberian who was autosomally west Eurasian with no traces of east Asian ancestry had Y DNA R, every population with Y DNA P has some west Eurasian, and not to mention all of Y DNA R's basal clades R1, R2, paragroup R*(it exists in west and south Asia) originated around west Eurasia or south Asia in Upper Palaeolithic times. The ancestors of Y DNA P were probably not east Asian or west Eurasian, but autosomally were still in the ancestral form.


They ( I, J, T, L, N, O ) have more WestEurasian in this point in time than R haplogroup does, also considering they formed not in South-east asia, then they would be gedrosian or caucasian. Unless you can provide where R origins are after It's "father" originated in south-east asian, then I fail to see what you are talking about.

besides doesn't this link show that northern Europe has some eastasian in it?
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004393



None of those haplogroups have been "proven" to be west Eurasian. No one here knows exactly what west Eurasian is. You should not come to such strong conclusions without studying the evidence very much.

IMO, R is south-asian
South Asia has great R1 diversity and unique or un-derived R1 subclades

Fire Haired14
29-06-14, 01:37
Sile, like I said before geography is not the same thing as genetics. If Y DNA P did originate in southeast Asia some 40,000 years ago that probably means that the original carriers were equally related to west and east Eurasians, and so genetically speaking it would be an Eurasian haplogroup. Maybe Y DNA R did originate in south Asia, I doubt it because all the evidence in my opinion points to an ANE and or west Eurasian origin. Paragroups R-M207*, R1-M173*, R1b-M343*, R1b1a-P25*, R1b1a2-M269*, R1a1-M17*, along with F*, IJ-M429*(only found in Iran), I2*, and I* are found in west Asia which is very interesting and evidence of unknown lineages which probably have been in west Asia for 10,000's of years. I'm afraid to repeat myself or say anymore on this subject because I don't know it enough and I'll regret my posts.

JS Bach
29-06-14, 05:16
That’s interesting that Icelandic singer Bjork looks so east Asian. According to the Ydna frequencies here on Eupedia, Icelanders have 1% ydna N. If she is 100% Icelandic as she claims, I wonder if it’s the ‘N’ genes coming into play here.

My hunch is that the Mongoloid phenotype – or at least most of the traits associated with it – originated on the ‘NO’ branch of the ydna tree, possibly with an archaic admixture event – although I guess we’ll have to wait and see what future ancient dna results tell us about that.

Kristiina
29-06-14, 07:21
That’s interesting that Icelandic singer Bjork looks so east Asian. According to the Ydna frequencies here on Eupedia, Icelanders have 1% ydna N. If she is 100% Icelandic as she claims, I wonder if it’s the ‘N’ genes coming into play here.

My hunch is that the Mongoloid phenotype – or at least most of the traits associated with it – originated on the ‘NO’ branch of the ydna tree, possibly with an archaic admixture event – although I guess we’ll have to wait and see what future ancient dna results tell us about that.




This is a typical opinion thrown in without any supportive evidence and based entirely on what one wants to believe!

It is now pretty clear that NO arose in Southeast Asia (See Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) and must have represented Southeast Asian phenotype, which is still the dominating phenotype in people bearing haplogroup O (typical in particular in East India, Indo-China, South and Southwest China, Taiwan). N is much younger (13.8-18 kya, Shi et al 2013) and seems to have originally represented Southwest Chinese phenotype which of course was Mongoloid at that time. However, the roots of many Mongolid traits (e.g. Sinodonty) must be in the north, probably in Palaeolithic Altai – Siberia, whatever their yDNA’s were. N is much too young and restricted in numbers to have developed an entire race in the post-Ice Age world.

epoch
29-06-14, 14:20
Where is your proof that haplogroup R is west-Eurasian, when its documented that R's founding Haplogroup P is South-east Asian ?

The only proven west-eurasian haplogroups that came out of K haplogroup are I, J, T, L, N and O ..............P is not

I was merely doing a play with logics, using Kristiina's own remark that...
genetic ancestry cannot supersede skeletal morphological traits as an indicator of race! ...to show that it would still place R* in West-Eurasiana at 24.0000 ybp.

Mind you, if we were to call R* not West-Eurasian because its parent isn't than we end up all having African haplogroups: A. So I gather somewhere in between very long a ago and recently R became (primarily) West-Eurasian. Apart, obviously, from R1b V88.

This shows that, just like language, Y-DNA only roughly coincides with autosomal DNA.

JS Bach
29-06-14, 18:55
It is now pretty clear that NO arose in Southeast Asia (See Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) and must have represented Southeast Asian phenotype, which is still the dominating phenotype in people bearing haplogroup O (typical in particular in East India, Indo-China, South and Southwest China, Taiwan).

Yes, I’m aware of that paper. Yet, from this Eurogenes post: http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2013/11/first-genome-of-upper-paleolithic-human.html

(http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2013/11/first-genome-of-upper-paleolithic-human.html)

“Below is the bar graph from the K=9 (nine ancestral populations assumed) ADMIXTURE analysis, which turned out to be the optimal run. Note that the Mal'ta sample appears mostly South Asian (37%), European (34%), and Amerindian (26%), but also with minor Oceanian ancestry (4%).”


It estimates only 4% of the Mal’ta boy’s genes had the Oceanian-like component.


Similarly, in a post with your name (my apologies if it isn’t your post) on this thread: http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.ca/2013/12/the-malta-adna-findings.html it shows a breakdown of Afontova Gora’s autosomal dna as being:


Globe 4
•70.95% Caucasoid (“European”)
•28.11% Indianid (“Amerindian”)
•0.91% Negroid (“African”)
•0.03% Mongoloid (“Asian”)

Globe13
•62.62% Nordic (“North_European”)
•11.87% Indianid (“Amerindian”)
•10.70% Alpine (“West_Asian”)
•7.45% Veddoid (“South_Asian”)
•6.54% Eskimid (“Arctic”)
•0.61% Paleo-Negrid (“West_African”)
•0.13% Melanesid (“Australasian”)
•0.07% Nilotid (“East_African”)
•0.00% Capoid (“Palaeo_African”)
•0.00% Mediterranean (“Mediterranean”)
•0.00% Orientalid (“Southwest_Asian”)
•0.00% Sinid (“East_Asian”)
•0.00% Tungid (“Siberian”)


So my point is that even if Ydna P originated in Southeast Asia, its apparent Mal’ta and Afontova Gora descendants don’t appear to have had much of their dna in common with people in that region today, based on these breakdowns.

Kristiina
29-06-14, 20:22
Yes, I’m aware of that paper. Yet, from this Eurogenes post: http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2013/11/first-genome-of-upper-paleolithic-human.html
(http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2013/11/first-genome-of-upper-paleolithic-human.html)
“Below is the bar graph from the K=9 (nine ancestral populations assumed) ADMIXTURE analysis, which turned out to be the optimal run. Note that the Mal'ta sample appears mostly South Asian (37%), European (34%), and Amerindian (26%), but also with minor Oceanian ancestry (4%).”

It estimates only 4% of the Mal’ta boy’s genes had the Oceanian-like component.

Similarly, in a post with your name (my apologies if it isn’t your post) on this thread: http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.ca/2013/12/the-malta-adna-findings.html it shows a breakdown of Afontova Gora’s autosomal dna as being:

So my point is that even if Ydna P originated in Southeast Asia, its apparent Mal’ta and Afontova Gora descendants don’t appear to have had much of their dna in common with people in that region today, based on these breakdowns.




Never mind! That 4% ancestry is given in the Mal'ta paper in November, and this higher percentage comes from the more recent Lazaridis paper which includes also Onge and Australians, so it is more complete. I suppose that a part of the South Asian portion has been moved under Onge. Also ANE is missing in the Malta paper, as it shows only South Asian and European components while the other paper shows European, ANE, ASI and Onge components. The Native American part is also more detailed.

While people move, genes change. As I said above, my Southeast Asian percentage is 1.22%, and it may be all that is left from yDNA N's path from Southeast Asia. My Northeast Asian ancestry is more than double that amount, i.e. 5.65%. Similarly, my ANE percentage is double that amount, i.e. c. 12%. The percentage of local DNA is however 70%! Other smaller portions are Mediterranean, West Asian, South Asian and Northwest African components. The most exciting thing is however the finding that probably part of my Northeast Asian ancestry belongs to the Native American cluster (apparent in Eurogenes and Geno2 calculators).

Aberdeen
29-06-14, 20:35
That’s interesting that Icelandic singer Bjork looks so east Asian. According to the Ydna frequencies here on Eupedia, Icelanders have 1% ydna N. If she is 100% Icelandic as she claims, I wonder if it’s the ‘N’ genes coming into play here.

My hunch is that the Mongoloid phenotype – or at least most of the traits associated with it – originated on the ‘NO’ branch of the ydna tree, possibly with an archaic admixture event – although I guess we’ll have to wait and see what future ancient dna results tell us about that.

I wasn't saying I thought Bjork had any more "east Asian" ancestry than the average European - I doubt she does, and I doubt that her DNA shows any peculiarities compared to other people from Iceland. I was just commenting on the fact that a few Europeans have an appearance that we perceive as "Asian" because we don't have another name for it, but it's probably just the way the genes happened to combine to produce a certain appearance that I was speculating could be closer to what ancient Europeans looked like before the Gravettian period. But that was just speculation - we don't actually know. What we do know is that the earliest Europeans contributed only a bit to modern European DNA, so probably had quite a different appearance, although we may never know for sure exactly what they looked like. And when people try to describe the autosomal mixture or the physical features of ancient skulls by saying that they're 75% modern European and 25% Mongoloid or whatever, I'm sure they don't actually believe that the person was descended from modern Europeans and modern Asians or whatever, but I think that using such a verbal shortcut can lead to confused thinking about how our ancestors mixed and developed over time.

JS Bach
29-06-14, 23:49
I was looking at the Admixture results for various Northern European samples for k=4 and k=3:



Population
Source
N
European
Asian
African
Amerindian


Russian_D
Dodecad
21
87.7
2
0
10.3


Polish_D
Dodecad
20
91.8
0
0
8.2


German_D
Dodecad
20
93
0
0
7


Irish_D
Dodecad
17
92.4
0
0
7.6


Finnish_D
Dodecad
15
84.3
3.6
0
12.1


Swedish_D
Dodecad
14
91.2
0
0
8.8


English_D
Dodecad
11
93.1
0
0
6.9


Lithuanian_D
Dodecad
10
90.9
0
0
9.1


Norwegian_D
Dodecad
10
91.6
0
0
8.4


Dutch_D
Dodecad
9
93.3
0
0
6.7






Population
Source
N
Asian
African
European


Russian_D
Dodecad
21
6.3
0
93.7


Polish_D
Dodecad
20
2.4
0
97.6


German_D
Dodecad
20
1.2
0
98.8


Irish_D
Dodecad
17
1.1
0
98.9


Finnish_D
Dodecad
15
10.1
0
89.9


Swedish_D
Dodecad
14
2.5
0
97.5


English_D
Dodecad
11
1.1
0
98.9


Lithuanian_D
Dodecad
10
2.6
0
97.4


Norwegian_D
Dodecad
10
2.3
0
97.7


Dutch_D
Dodecad
9
1
0
99





When going from k=4 to k=3, it looks like a smaller proportion of the Amerindian component in k=4 goes to Asian in k=3 for Ireland and the West Germanic countries: Germany, England and Holland (16%), while the North Germanic countries: Norway and Sweden go from Amerindian to Asian at a higher rate (28%), with Poland and Lithuania a bit higher (29%), and with Finland and Russia appearing to have the highest proportion of Amerindian going to Asian (54% and 42%).

I suspect that at least some of the Amerindian component is associated with Ydna Q and N. And my guess would be that the N-related genes would go to Asian at a higher rate than the Q-related genes. And there tends to be a higher proportion of Ydna N the more one goes from West to East among those ten countries, while Q remains relatively uniform, peaking in Sweden.

And if by the k=3 table Icelanders are about 1.7% Asian (Norwegian + Irish)/2, then maybe Bjork's phenotype would come up occasionally, but that's just a wild guess.

Kristiina
30-06-14, 07:55
And if by the k=3 table Icelanders are about 1.7% Asian (Norwegian + Irish)/2, then maybe Bjork's phenotype would come up occasionally, but that's just a wild guess.

My guess is that these European Amerindians looked pretty much like Björk, and perhaps Malta boy looked like her as well.

JS Bach
01-07-14, 07:18
I just noticed something from the tables in my last post. If you subtract the Asian component in the k=3 table from the Amerindian component, and then re-add the Asian component in the k=4 table, the result is the last column in this table:



Population
Source
N
European
Asian
African
Amerindian
Asian in k=3
Amerindian
+ Asian in k=3
- Asian in k=4


Russian_D
Dodecad
21
87.7
2
0
10.3
6.3
6


Polish_D
Dodecad
20
91.8
0
0
8.2
2.4
5.8


German_D
Dodecad
20
93
0
0
7
1.2
5.8


Irish_D
Dodecad
17
92.4
0
0
7.6
1.1
6.5


Finnish_D
Dodecad
15
84.3
3.6
0
12.1
10.1
5.6


Swedish_D
Dodecad
14
91.2
0
0
8.8
2.5
6.3


English_D
Dodecad
11
93.1
0
0
6.9
1.1
5.8


Lithuanian_D
Dodecad
10
90.9
0
0
9.1
2.6
6.5


Norwegian_D
Dodecad
10
91.6
0
0
8.4
2.3
6.1


Dutch_D
Dodecad
9
93.3
0
0
6.7
1
5.7




I suspect this resulting subset of the Admixture with k=4 Amerindian component largely removes the ydna N-related genes, and mostly represents the ydna Q-related genes.

And it is remarkably consistent across all ten Northern European samples, all within a single percentage point, ranging from 5.6% in Finland to 6.5% in Ireland and Lithuania.

So what does this component represent, that makes up 6% of the genomes of Northern Europeans? My best guess is that it’s related to the Solutreans who lived in Southwestern Europe around 20,000 ybp. The closest subclade to Q-M3 – the main subclade of Native Americans – on the phylogenetic tree is Q-L804, which seems to be found exclusively in Northern Europe: http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/409/

Several ancient dna finds of Swedish hunter gatherers have revealed a higher Amerindian component for k=4 than those ten contemporary populations: http://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/05/05/analyses-of-the-stora-forvar-11-genome/comment-page-1/ 7,500 to 7,250 years ago
http://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/05/08/analyses-of-more-prehistoric-swedish-genomes/ Ajvide 59 (4,900–4,600 BP) was 23.51% Amerindian
http://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/05/06/analyses-of-the-ajvide-58-genome/
http://genetiker.wordpress.com/2013/11/30/analyses-of-the-ire-8-genome/
And some of those samples had high ANE percentages – Motala12 (7,000-8,000 ybp) was 19% ANE, and Ajvide58 had 15% of something similar: http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2014/04/more-ancient-scandinavians-skoglund.html

As to whether these Amerindian-like people were Mongoloid or Caucasoid, I suspect that the k=3 breakdown reveals much of the answer, as it appears that the large majority of those Amerindian genes fall into the ‘European’ classification, for all but the Finnish and Russian samples. And even more so with the results where I tried to remove the ydna N factor. Although, I’ve been wrong before.

Kristiina
01-07-14, 08:37
I just noticed something from the tables in my last post. If you subtract the Asian

As to whether these Amerindian-like people were Mongoloid or Caucasoid, I suspect that the k=3 breakdown reveals much of the answer, as it appears that the large majority of those Amerindian genes fall into the ‘European’ classification, for all but the Finnish and Russian samples. And even more so with the results where I tried to remove the ydna N factor. Although, I’ve been wrong before.


Do your percentages mean that the Finnish Amerindian percentage is so high because
it arrived at least twice, first with the Solutreans (5-6% evenly spread over
Northern Europe) and next with some yDNA N clade?

Angela
01-07-14, 16:41
My guess is that these European Amerindians looked pretty much like Björk, and perhaps Malta boy looked like her as well.

I'm sure Bjork has pigmentation snps within the modern European range. Mal'ta did not.

Fire Haired14
01-07-14, 18:48
I'm sure Bjork has pigmentation snps within the modern European range. Mal'ta did not.

AG2 did though. That's why I will always say the exact skin of WHG and ANE hunter gatherers is a mystery. I think our best guess is a tone darker than the average European and probably west Asian(they have pretty much the same mutations, don't forget that).

Angela
01-07-14, 20:50
To be precise, AG did not have the full complement of de-pigmentation snps present in modern Europeans, although it had some...Pigmentation is a polygenic trait. As I've said ad nauseam, modern forensics tests used everyday by the FBI and other law enforcement entities (I've supervised these situations myself) tell us that a certain combination of snps is necessary for accurate predictions of European style "fair" skin or medium skin, or dark skin, for that matter.

It would be very easy to check for those who have such an interest in this topic: run the AG complement of pigmentation snps through the most recent iteration of these forensics tests and see what skin color is predicted. I'd be very interested to see the results.

Regardless, the discussion was about Mal'ta's physical phenotype and it's correlation, or not, with someone resembling Bjork. When the results were first published, I said that Mal'ta's pigmentation snps were like those of Melanesians, which is interesting given the discussion on this thread.

Of course, there are two caveats to all of this:
l. Perhaps the recovery of snps is not 100% accurate in these ancient samples.
2.Perhaps these ancient people possessed unknown depigmentation snps totally different from the ones present in modern day Europeans, and they are hiding somewhere.

Fire Haired14
01-07-14, 21:09
Angela, why do you refuse to admit there are unknown SNPs that create the skin color difference between Europeans and middle easterns?

I would like to know about the other SNPs and tests your talking about.

Angela
01-07-14, 21:43
Please re-read post #79

JS Bach
01-07-14, 22:51
Do your percentages mean that the Finnish Amerindian percentage is so high because
it arrived at least twice, first with the Solutreans (5-6% evenly spread over
Northern Europe) and next with some yDNA N clade?

Yes, although I'd be surprised if that fully characterized it. Those ancient Swedish dna links I gave in my last post also give breakdowns with k=13 and other clustering/classification algorithms.

Aberdeen
02-07-14, 01:46
To be precise, AG did not have the full complement of de-pigmentation snps present in modern Europeans, although it had some...Pigmentation is a polygenic trait. As I've said ad nauseam, modern forensics tests used everyday by the FBI and other law enforcement entities (I've supervised these situations myself) tell us that a certain combination of snps is necessary for accurate predictions of European style "fair" skin or medium skin, or dark skin, for that matter.

It would be very easy to check for those who have such an interest in this topic: run the AG complement of pigmentation snps through the most recent iteration of these forensics tests and see what skin color is predicted. I'd be very interested to see the results.

Regardless, the discussion was about Mal'ta's physical phenotype and it's correlation, or not, with someone resembling Bjork. When the results were first published, I said that Mal'ta's pigmentation snps were like those of Melanesians, which is interesting given the discussion on this thread.

Of course, there are two caveats to all of this:
l. Perhaps the recovery of snps is not 100% accurate in these ancient samples.
2.Perhaps these ancient people possessed unknown depigmentation snps totally different from the ones present in modern day Europeans, and they are hiding somewhere.

Someone has come up with yet another theory about the depigmentation of people living in northern Europe - they evolved that way because pigmentation simply wasn't as necessary any more. Of course, linking it to high latitudes creates obvious problems in terms of explaining dark skin among Inuit and Native Americans, so I'm not sure I buy it but here's the link.

"http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11692-014-9282-7

And here's a copy of the abstract.

"Skin pigmentation lightened progressively to a variable extent, as modern humans emigrated out of Africa, but extreme lightening occurred only in northern Europeans. Yet, loss of pigmentation alone cannot suffice to sustain cutaneous vitamin D3 (VD3) formation at the high latitudes of northern Europe. We hypothesized that loss-of-function mutations in the epidermal structural protein, filaggrin (FLG), could have evolved to sustain adequate VD3 status. Loss of FLG results in reduced generation of trans-urocanic acid, the principal endogenous ultraviolet-B (UV-B) filter in lightly-pigmented individuals. Accordingly, we identified a higher prevalence of FLG mutations in northern European populations when compared to more southern European, Asian and African populations that correlates significantly with differences in circulating 25-OH-VD3 levels in these same populations. By allowing additional UV-B penetration and intracutaneous VD3 formation, the latitude-dependent gradient in FLG mutations, likely together with other concurrent mutations in VD3 metabolic pathways, provide a non-pigment-based mechanism that sustains higher levels of circulating VD3 in northern Europeans. At the time that FLG mutations evolved, xerosis due to FLG deficiency was a lesser price to pay for enhanced VD3 production. Yet, the increase in FLG mutations has inadvertently contributed to an epidemic of atopic diseases that has emerged in recent decades."

Theodorik
13-07-14, 22:53
You have been brainwashed by propaganda.
The Liberal Myth that Race Isn't a Biological Reality


Here is a recent article spreading the myth that race is a myth:

http://www.helium.com/items/1625402-why-race-is-a-social-term-rather-than-a-biological-reality




A recent liberal racist propaganda piece put out over television was "Race, the Power of an Illusion"


http://newsreel.org/transcripts/race1.htm


"OSSORIO: All of our genetics now is telling us that that's not the case. We can't find any genetic markers that are in everybody of a particular race and in nobody of some other race. We can't find any genetic markers that define race." LIE


"ALAN GOODMAN, Biological Anthropologist: To understand why the idea of race is a biological myth requires a major paradigm shift, an absolute paradigm shift, a shift in perspective. And for me, it's like seeing, you know, what it must have been like to understand that the world isn't flat. And perhaps I can invite you to a mountain top and you can look out the window and at the horizon and see, "oh what I thought was flat I can see a curve in now," that the world is much more complicated. In fact, that race is not based on biology but race is rather an idea that we ascribe to biology." LIE


If race were not a biological reality, it would not be possible to determine a person's race from a skull or a mouth swab.


http://forums.delphiforums.com/racism13
http://forums.delphiforums.com/chromosome

Theodorik
13-07-14, 22:54
DNA Confirms Lewontin's Fallacy
Jewish Marxist scientists Richard Lewontin and Stephen Jay Gould and Jewish liberal popular science writer Jared Diamond claimed that race is not a biological concept, because most of the genetic variation is between individuals and not between races.
Nicholas Wade, former chief science writer for the New York Times, explains why this is wrong in his new book, A TROUBLESOME INHERITANCE; GENES, RACE AND HUMAN HISTORY. New York, the Penguin Press, 2014.
Page 120: "Lewontin's argument has other problems, including a subtle error of statistical reasoning named Lewontin's fallacy. The fallacy is to assume that the genetic differences between populations are uncorrelated with one another; if they are correlated, they become much more significant. As the geneticist A.W.F. Edwards wrote, 'Most of the information that distinguishes populations is hidden in the correlation structure of the data,'" The 15% genetic difference between races, in other words, is not random noise but contains information about how individuals are more closely related to members of the same race than those of other races."
Page 121: "...races are identified by clusters of traits, and to belong to a certain race, it's not necessary to possess all of the identifying traits. To take a practical example of what the anthropologists are talking about, most East Asians have the sinodont form of dentition, but not all do. Most have the EDAR-V370A allele of the EDAR gene, but not all do. Most have the dry earwax allele of the ABCC11 gene, but not all do. Nonetheless, East Asian is a perfectly valid racial category, and most people in East Asia can be assigned to it."
Even a small child or a dog can instantly tell the difference between Africans, Chinese, and whites. Only liberals and liberal scientists seem to have difficulty distinguishing races.

Lewontin's Fallacy
Richard Lewontin, like Stephen Jay Gould, were Marxist anti-Darwinian scientists.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jun2009/dar3-j19.shtml

" Evolutionary psychology and its antecedent socio-biology were vigorously opposed by radical scientists, often calling themselves Marxists. Biologists like Richard Lewontin in the US and Steven Rose in the UK, as well as the US palaeontologist Stephen Jay Gould, were part of an organization called Science for the People. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Human_genetic_diversity:_Lewontin's_fallacy%22_ (scientific_paper)




Lewontin claimed that race was not a biological concept. This was disproved by A.W.F. Edwards. "Edwards argued that while Lewontin's statements on variability are correct when examining the frequency of different alleles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allele) (variants of a particular gene) at individual locus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_(genetics)) (the location of a particular gene) between individuals, it is nonetheless possible to classify individuals into different racial groups with an accuracy that approaches 100% when one takes into account the frequency of the alleles at several loci at the same time. This happens because differences in the frequency of alleles at different loci are correlated across populations — the alleles that are more frequent in a population at two or more loci are correlated when we consider the two populations simultaneously. Or in other words, the frequency of the alleles tends to cluster differently for different populations.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Human_genetic_diversity:_Lewontin's_fallacy%22_ (scientific_paper)#cite_note-7)
"In Edwards' words, 'most of the information that distinguishes populations is hidden in the correlation structure of the data.' These relationships can be extracted using commonly-usedordination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_(statistics)) and cluster analysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_analysis) techniques. Edwards argued that, even if the probability of misclassifying an individual based on the frequency of alleles at a single locus is as high as 30% (as Lewontin reported in 1972), the misclassification probability becomes close to zero if enough loci are studied.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Human_genetic_diversity:_Lewontin's_fallacy%22_ (scientific_paper)#cite_note-McCabe-8)"
Razib Khan Puts Richard Lewontin in His Place

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/11/lewontin-against-the-age/

Richard Lewontin is a Marxist molecular biologist who is famous for attempting to prevent research on race and intelligence and claiming that race doesn't exist. He still has a great deal of influence in the AAAS and American universities.

His latest diatribe against science contains some amazing scientific errors, such as confusing ribosomes with mitochondrial DNA and asking "Is there a Jewish gene?" Of course, it is now well proven that there are a whole host of genes which identify Ashkenazi Jews, but that is no one single "Jewish gene."

Razib Khan, a scientist of Bangladeshi decent, has done an excellent job of defeating Lewontin, the old leader of racist liberals in science.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/11/lewontin-against-the-age/

"The key is “for political reasons.” The title of The New York Review of Books piece by Lewontin is “Is There a Jewish Gene?” Titles are often placed there by editors, but in this case I wouldn’t be surprised if this Lewontin was responsible for this. Much of his line of attack against modern genetics which displeases him is to construct a strawman of monogenic models, when the reality is that polygenic variation is widely acknowledged and understood, within the academy! Not so in the public and popular press, and Lewontin fans the flames of that confusion, because he knows that there isn’t a “Jewish gene,” or an “intelligence gene.”
Also, I actually saw Harry Oster (http://www.affymetrix.com/promotions/ashg/index.affx) speak at ASHG, and it seems likely to me that Richard Lewontin is not painting an accurate portrait of the book he is reviewing here. Oster’s view of genetics and ancestry is subtle and nuanced. In any case, of the myriad issues which Lewontin mangles, the primary one I need to point out is that the most powerful evidence for the genetic affinity of the Jewish people is not in uniparental markers, as asserted in the review, but autosomal genomic tracts which indicate descent from a relatively small number of people over and over across the past 1,000 years. This is where Lewontin’s thought experiment of dilution over the generations falters; the strong stamp of Jewishness which binds Ashkenazim in particular manifests in the fact that genealogies coalesce over and over again toward the same relatively small number of people 500-1,000 years ago. This is a major avenue of research. If Richard Lewontin had gone to ASHG 2012 he would have been treated to a lot of “Jewish genes.”


http://forums.delphiforums.com/paleogenetics1
http://forums.delphiforums.com/racism13
http://forums.delphiforums.com/physanthro
http://forums.delphiforums.com/chromosome
http://forums.delphiforums.com/truthseekers23

Theodorik
13-07-14, 22:55
Craig Venter's Racial DNA Hoax
Liberals and Marxists opposed the Human Genome Project as being "racist" and tried to deny it funding. To counter this, Craig Venter claimed that there is no such thing as race and the DNA would be taken from each of the major human races, because race doesn't matter. Actually, the project would have failed if he had actually done this. He really just used his own DNA.
This is explained in a biography called THE GENOME WAR, HOW CRAIG VENTER TRIED TO CAPTURE THE CODE OF LIFE AND SAVE THE WORLD, by James Shreeve. New York, Ballantine Books, 2005.


Page 219: "Another conundrum in the donor selection process was the issue of race. how could any one person's genome stand in for the diversity of the species itself. Everyone involved, especially Venter, was keen to use the the sequencing project to underscore the point that human beings are genetically 99.9 percent the same, with no no way of discriminating one person's genome from another's on the basis of race [FALSE!] But if donors were selected to reflect racial diversity, wouldn't that give just the opposite message"
Page 220: "We want to demonstrate that race is not a scientific concept,' said Venter. 'If we do five genomes, it would be fundamentally wrong to end up with five white men.'" He actually ended up doing one white man.
Jewish liberal scientist Eric Lander told Bill Clinton and Tony Blair that human beings are 99.9 percent the same. Bill Clinton even made that part of his inauguration speech. When Bill Clinton, and the two leaders of the rival human genome projects, Francis Collins and Craig Venter appeared together to announce the completion of the human genome, Collins lied and said "I'm happy that today the only race we are talking about is the human race." (page 356.) Of course, the truth is that the race of a person can be accurately determined from a DNA sample. This is used today in criminal cases. Forensic geneticists can tell the sex, race, ethnic group and even hair color, general height level, eye color and facial type just from a DNA sample. http://www.thenation.com/article/173554/dark-side-dna-evidence
Craig Venter And the "Race Is Not a Biological Concept" Hoax

Race is real. The evidence is overwhelming and no one can refute it.

When Craig Venter headed the Human Genome Project, liberal know-nothings tried to stop the project as "racist." But Venter outsmarted them. He told them what they wanted to hear. "Race is not a biological concept. There is no such thing as race." He then said he took DNA from whites, Africans, and Asians "because race doesn't exist and we all have the same DNA." But he lied. The project would have failed if he had really been so stupid. The "Human" Genome is actually the DNA of one man, Craig Venter.

http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/ogandy/C45405%20resources/McCann%20race%20human%20genome.pdf

"Craig Venter (Head of
Celera Genomics, and chief private scientist involved with the HGP) claimed that
his analysis of the genomes of five people of different ethnicities had demonstrated
that ‘race’ was not a scientifically valid construct."

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hElGHJ5vITBl_1_Vr5pIiUVWlUAA

"The new data shows that in an individual genome upwards of 44 percent of genes are variable in sequence."

"'This dispels the notion we had in 2000 and 2001 that we all have exactly the same genes in the human population,' said Venter. 'It would have been very disturbing if the range of characteristics that we see all came down to a few simple SNP variations.'"

"The findings overturn what had in a few short years become genetic gospel: that all human beings are, genetically speaking, 99.9 identical"



http://forums.delphiforums.com/racism13
http://forums.delphiforums.com/chromosome
http://forums.delphiforums.com/paleogenetics1
http://forums.delphiforums.com/biohistory
http://forums.delphiforums.com/truthseekers23












.

Fire Haired14
14-07-14, 01:08
Theodorik, thanks for helping make people aware of the propaganda and lies many high ranking people in the west make. People who ignore genetic differences between differnt human populations are driven by fear not logic. Westerners reaction to raciest mistakes made in the past is way to extreme, and it has permanently scared the minds and culture of the west. I think most people in the west have some type of raciest tendency, I know I did, and there is no turning back to the innocence people had 500 years ago. In my opinion most racism in the west falls under two categories one on the far right and one on the far left.

Far left version: People start out with a just reaction to racism or any type of discrimination done towards non traditional western people: non-Christians, non-Europeans, non-western morality, indigenous people(usually defined as primitive people, who lived in an area before European colonization). But their feelings get so strong, that they develop a hate for anything that represents stero typical traditional westernism or "conservatism". They become obsessed with condemning the mistakes of traditional westernism, and begin to discriminate conservatives. Out of this comes political correctness, anti-patriotism, etc.

Far right version: It either develops from a reaction to the far left version, or prejudices and just hate towards non-traditional western things. A reaction to the far left version can trigger racism, and hate they already had inside them, and in their minds they trick themselves to think they are not raciest and hateful. Just like with the far left their political ideology becomes obsessed with condemning non-westernism and or the far left.

Of course though it is not black and white, there are many shades of grey in between. Both forms get on my nerves, and people who think you're some type of crazy political extremist if you even mention racism or anything controversial. Sometimes they're right but sometimes they have their own problem of being scared of talking about it.