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Angela
22-06-14, 17:26
The following two pictures are of the same woman...she has colored her hair in one of the shots:
https://fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net/safe_image.php?d=AQDEhivsF3Os-zay&w=377&h=197&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cittadigenova.com%2Fget_image .ashx%3Fid%3D5213&cfs=1&sx=0&sy=489&sw=1024&sh=535

http://www.primocanale.it/immagininews/20130626163009-paita.jpg
http://www.lanazione.it/laspezia/cronaca/2012/01/31/661698/images/903179-cattedra.JPG

http://www.ilgazzettino.it/MsgrNews/HIGH/20120127_francesco_moraglia.jpg

Aberdeen
23-06-14, 18:56
If all four pictures are of the same woman, her features got more masculine as she aged. That does happen to some women.

LeBrok
23-06-14, 21:56
Interesting nose of the bishop. I think many Jewish people have similar. Perhaps Jews picked up this feature in Southern Europe somewhere long time ago?

Angela
23-06-14, 22:27
Oh dear, poor Raffaela. Only the first two pictures are of her. :grin: Her full name is Raffaela Paita, and she's a politician.

The last two pictures are of Francesco Moraglia, former Bishop of LaSpezia, and now Archbishop of Venezia. From all accounts, he's a good man, and much beloved by his congregations.

They're both native Ligurians, and their particular kind of look is not at all uncommon there, certainly not on the eastern end. I just don't know what to call it since I'm still not very good with these physical anthropology classifications.

As for the Bishop's nose, Jews certainly can have prominent noses, but I don't recall seeing that particular shape.I could be wrong, though. It's definitely unattractive. For what it's worth, local folklore blames French influence for the particularly prominent noses amongst us, which I've always thought was rather funny. It's as if they've never seen the busts of famous Romans. :laughing:

Also for what it's worth, the back of the Bishop's head is as flat as a table. Raffaela's head looks round to me.

LeBrok
23-06-14, 22:45
As for the Bishop's nose, Jews certainly can have prominent noses, but I don't recall seeing that particular shape.I could be wrong, though. It's definitely unattractive. For what it's worth, local folklore blames French influence for the particularly prominent noses amongst us, which I've always thought was rather funny. It's as if they've never seen the busts of famous Romans. :laughing:

Also for what it's worth, the back of the Bishop's head is as flat as a table. Raffaela's head looks round to me.
It is not the smallest nose, but this is not what I was after. The most prominent feature is the middle part of nose ridge. It is widest in center and sort of flattened. Also the tip of the nose is flattened with small indentation or little groove. Barbra Streisand has, or rather had, a similar one.
http://nomoredirtylooks.com/wp-content/uploads/BARBRA_STREISAND1-e1301546488913.jpg

Angela
24-06-14, 02:02
It is not the smallest nose, but this is not what I was after. The most prominent feature is the middle part of nose ridge. It is widest in center and sort of flattened. Also the tip of the nose is flattened with small indentation or little groove. Barbra Streisand has, or rather had, a similar one.
http://nomoredirtylooks.com/wp-content/uploads/BARBRA_STREISAND1-e1301546488913.jpg


It is not the smallest nose, but this is not what I was after. The most prominent feature is the middle part of nose ridge. It is widest in center and sort of flattened. Also the tip of the nose is flattened with small indentation or little groove. Barbra Streisand has, or rather had, a similar one.


You're right; they both have a flattened bulb at the tip. The bridge is also similar in that it's prominent and bony and rather flattened as well. I do think her nose is longer and has a more extreme bump than his, however. I also think her nose is narrower at the nostril area and the tip extends downwards a bit more.

It's difficult to find a profile view of Bishop Moraglia without his glasses, so I'm not absolutely sure about this, and I didn't make note of it when I did see him in person. :) He just looked extremely familiar.
http://media.polisblog.it/4/415/Francesco_Moraglia-586x389.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5aKRU_z5VMw/TjDIy_dHOgI/AAAAAAAADlY/SEWevQs4poA/s640/MV5BMTUwMjExMjg5MV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNTE2MTQ2__V1__ SX368_SY450_.jpg

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HV0XFeFI7ro/0.jpg

Fwiw, it's still not a nose I think of as particularly "Jewish" or Semitic looking. In fact, I rather think of those long, bumpy noses as particularly "Italian", although perhaps it's just that I "look" at Italians more, if you know what I mean, or I'm more familiar with them.

Le Brok, we're talking "noses" again!http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

Angela
24-06-14, 02:14
LeBrok's post got me thinking.

Julius Caesar:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6008/5933320426_976f4df951_z.jpg

Cicero:
http://uapryal.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/52142397_Mark_Tulliy_Ciceron3-234x300.jpg

Tiberius (no genetic relationship with Julius):
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5180/5476550704_53e548a033.jpg

Sulla:

http://www.stilus.nl/oudheid/wdo/ROME/KONINGEN/PLAATJES/SULLA.jpg

I could go on and on...Scipio Africanus, Cato, etc.

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I've convinced myself that Archbishop Moraglia looks just like a Roman.:satisfied:

LeBrok
24-06-14, 04:02
It might as well be the "nose admixture" Ashkenazi picked from Romans. :)
I wonder who else in Europe might have these unique noses?

Nobody1
24-06-14, 05:49
It might as well be the "nose admixture" Ashkenazi picked from Romans. :)
I wonder who else in Europe might have these unique noses?

Every Dinaric person;
(However Aquiline noses also occur in other Caucasoid sub-races)

---

Bishop - Noric/Dinaric
Woman - Medit./Alpinoid

Sile
24-06-14, 09:19
I can see the feminine side of the bishop.....................where's my glasses

LeBrok
24-06-14, 18:48
Every Dinaric person;
(However Aquiline noses also occur in other Caucasoid sub-races)

Can you check if you can locate specific population with these peculiar nose features, flattened ridge and grooved tip?

Angela
25-06-14, 17:56
I've seen various definitions for an aquiline nose; I've seen it applied only to a curved sort of scimitar nose, while others also include bumpy bridge "Roman" noses within it. On the other hand I've seen that bumpy bridged nose called a busque nose. Then, some of those noses are long and sinewy, and others are blunter and shorter. There's all sorts of variations. I don't think there's a name for a 'flattened' bump, or for a bifurcated bulb tip.

I don't know where these noses originated precisely. I presume they were selected for in different environments, but I never really researched natural selection in terms of nose shapes. I don't know, for instance, why both Africans and East Asians have so few bones in their noses.

Anyway, as to Le Brok's question about where that high flattened bridge combined with a flattened sort of grooved bulb can be found, I do have a bit of a memory from historical portraits of people who have that combination. That said, some have shorter noses, some longer, some thinner, and some more coarse, so they're not identical.

They're certainly present in Italians so I won't bother posting any pictures for them.

This combination, and prominent noses in particular, seem to have quite a presence in the royalty of quite a few European nations. Perhaps it's a very dominant set of traits, and they keep passing it around?

You can see the "bump" in every dynasty of France, and I think the bulb tip is there as well, at least in some of them.
You can just google the Capetian kings of France, but this is Philip Augustus:
http://img.todayonhistory.com/201311/26/0311854.jpg

Also, Henri de Bourbon, Prince of Navarre, later King Henri IV of France:
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/French/HenriIV.JPG
All the Bourbons seem to have had a version of it.

All the way down to Louis XVI:
http://c0rindotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/louis-xvi.jpg

(Does Holland have a version of it?
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02323/hollande1_2323554b.jpg)

It's also present in the British Isles:
James Stuart, James V of Scotland. (father of Mary, Queen of Scots)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ybcLsOWni7U/T-l-dBAFaRI/AAAAAAAAHQg/6R0pd2BoHho/s1600/JamesI.jpg

This is another picture of him:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/James_V_of_Scotland2.jpg

I also think Elizabeth I may have had it too, perhaps through her mother Anne Boleyn? Or in combination with Henry VIII's?
http://cdn.history.com/sites/2/2013/11/Elizabeth-I-Hero-H.jpeg
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/history/sda/images/external_links/audio_link/execution_of_anne_boleyn.jpg
http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/05/130514_SCI_HENRYVIII.jpg.CROP.rectangle3-large.jpg

I definitely think her mother's Howard blood had something to do with it. Katherine Parr, another of his Howard wives, also had it.
http://imageweb-cdn.magnoliasoft.net/nmm/supersize/pw3184.jpg

You also see it in the Hapsburgs:
Charles V:
http://www.heidelberg-catechism.com/images/site/Charles_V.jpg

And Ferdinand II
http://static.habsburger.net/files/styles/large/public/images/teaser/kaiser_ferdinand_ii._im_harnisch_um_1614_teaser.jp g

Nor are the Kings of Castile immune:
http://cincojotas.com/themagazine/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/300px-Alx01b.jpeg
http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_artists/drz000/z051/z0510457fyk.jpg


I could go on, but yes, there’s a limit to how much time I can devote to this stuff. :)

So, do the smoothly curved convex nose (is that the "Dinaric" nose?) and the "bumpy" Roman nose have the same genesis? Do they both trace back to the Neolithic? And why do North American Indians have sometimes similar noses, but not South American Indians? Did the bifurcated bulb tip or at least bulb tip just get added by chance in some people?

Oh, I forgot...British authors too...Wordsworth, and, unfortunately, on a woman, George Eliot:
https://www.poets.org/sites/default/files/styles/286x289/public/images/biographies/wwordswo.jpg?itok=s8eJ4z7a
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/uploads/authors/e804a1bbba/448x/george-eliot-448.jpg

Maleth
25-06-14, 21:45
It's definitely unattractive. For what it's worth, local folklore blames French influence for the particularly prominent noses amongst us, which I've always thought was rather funny. It's as if they've never seen the busts of famous Romans. :laughing:



whats unattractive for some could be attractive for others ;)........

Angela
26-06-14, 02:14
whats unattractive for some could be attractive for others ;)........

Very true, Maleth. It's all very subjective. That grooved, flattened bulb may be just the ticket for someone, yes?

I'm sure not everyone shares my attraction to a "Dinaric" or "Roman" look, either. To each their own.

Oh, and I do like the way the Bishop looks overall, and not just because he's so familiar and indeed familial looking; there's something very kind about his face and eyes in most of his pictures, and even more so in person, and that's always the most important thing for me.

LeBrok
26-06-14, 02:47
You can see the "bump" in every dynasty of France, and I think the bulb tip is there as well, at least in some of them.
You can just google the Capetian kings of France, but this is Philip Augustus:

The groove on tip of nose seems to be very common in France.
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/1/4/1357312724592/Gerard-Depardieu-009.jpg

I have a friend from Quebec with grooved nose, whose family comes from France.

Angela
26-06-14, 15:58
Maleth, apropos of our discussion, I think standards of beauty also vary a great deal depending on the time and the place. This is Diane de Poitiers, mistress of Henri II from the time he was sixteen until he died twenty five years later. She maintained her hold on him all through his marriage and the birth of ten children from that marriage, despite the fact that she was almost twenty years his senior, by the way. (She was about thirty-five to his sixteen when it began.) Today, Hollywood would immediately send her off for a rhinoplasy (and probably liposuction as well!) :)

http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/files/2012/08/hl-diane-de-poitiers.jpg

motzart
26-06-14, 17:50
I read somewhere that a protruding nose is an adaptation to a dry climate and that a thin nose is an adaptation to a cold air climate. My guess is the protruding nose originated in the middle east and was probably a Roman trait. But we also know that Neandertals had very large noses.

oreo_cookie
25-10-14, 20:19
Woman is "Atlanto-Med"
Man is "Norid"