New study claims that Irishmen descended from Turkish farmers

DejaVu

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New study claims that Irishmen descended from Turkish farmers (Anatolian not Turkish)
http://www.irishcentral.com/roots/n...-from-turkish-farmers-83217437-237788351.html

A new study has revealed that many Irish men may be able to trace their roots back to Turkey.
Focusing on the role of the Y chromosome, which is passed from father to son, the research indicates Turkish farmers arrived in Ireland about 6,000 years ago, bringing agriculture with them.
And they may have been more attractive than the hunter-gatherers whom they replaced.

The genetic patterns for Irish females differ from those of men.
“Most maternal genetic lineages seem to descend from hunter-gatherers,” an author of the study, Patricia Balaresque, told the London Times.
“To us, this suggests a reproductive advantage for farming males over indigenous hunter-gatherer males during the switch to farming.

“Maybe, it was just sexier to be a farmer,” she added.
Eighty-five per cent of Irish men are descended from farming people from the Middle East and especially Turkey, according to the research that was conducted by scientists at the University of Leicester.
The switch from hunting and gathering to farming was a crucial one in human development. Increased food production meant that populations were able to grow.
In Britain, 60-65 per cent of the population has the Turkish genetic pattern, while in parts of the Iberian Peninsula it’s almost as the same as in Ireland.
The research contradicts what was previously thought about Irish genealogy – that hunter-gatherers from Spain and Portugal who survived the Ice Age were our main genetic ancestors.

“This particular kind of Y chromosome follows a gradient, gradually increasing in frequency from Turkey and the southeast of Europe to Ireland, where it reaches its highest frequency,
” Mark Jobling from the University of Leicester told the Times.

We are saying that most of that original hunter-gatherer male population in Ireland was probably replaced by incoming agricultural populations,” he added.
 
That title is meant to be controversial and surprising. I hate it when people do raciest shit like this. Everyone knows R1b L23 arrived in west Europe from west Asia, and it probably actually came with Indo Europeans. Nothing was called Turkey just 2,000 years ago and R1b L23 could have first come out of many regions in west Asia, and we don't know what they were autosomally. Irish can trace about 100% of their overall ancestry to stone age European hunter gatherers and farmers, Y DNA is just a paternal lineage, which is prone to founder effects.
 
I coudln't find the original paper, but when they say:

"the research indicates Turkish farmers arrived in Ireland about 6,000 years ago, bringing agriculture with them"

they obviously mean that haplogroup R1b was brought by Neolithic farmers. It's unbelievable that there are still population geneticists who clinch to that idea.

Ultimately it could be more or less correct to say that the Irish Y-chromosomes have their origins in Turkey and with the rise of agriculture, but only because Neolithic herders from Turkey (or Armenia or Iran or northern Mesopotamia) migrated to the Pontic Steppe, then invaded Europe in the Bronze Age and reached Ireland c. 4000 years ago (2000 years after Neolithic farmers).
 
That title is meant to be controversial and surprising. I hate it when people do raciest shit like this. Everyone knows R1b L23 arrived in west Europe from west Asia, and it probably actually came with Indo Europeans.

The thing is, most people don't know. Oppenheimer's sensational headlines about the British Isles being full of Basques are still the most recent in many people's memories. Although this headline is also stupid, at least it's a step in the right direction that people are becoming aware that Oppenheimer's theories are no longer accepted.

Nothing was called Turkey just 2,000 years ago and R1b L23 could have first come out of many regions in west Asia, and we don't know what they were autosomally. Irish can trace about 100% of their overall ancestry to stone age European hunter gatherers and farmers, Y DNA is just a paternal lineage, which is prone to founder effects.

Aren't the Irish about 15% ANE? You think this is almost entirely ANE that was already in hunter gatherers and farmers, and not brought by Indo-Europeans?
 
Aren't the Irish about 15% ANE? You think this is almost entirely ANE that was already in hunter gatherers and farmers, and not brought by Indo-Europeans?

If the Indo Europeans who spread in Europe are who the experts say they were(Yamna culture, etc.), they were essentially European genetically. There are plenty of mtDNA samples from the Yamna and Catcacomb cultures to prove maternally they had the same hunter-farmer mix(with plenty of European-specific lineages) only found in Europe. Indo Europeans were EEF-WHG-ANE mix and their ANE probably mostly came from eastern Europe. and so from the same source as the ANE ancestry found in Scandinavian hunter gatherers.
 
Ultimately it could be more or less correct to say that the Irish Y-chromosomes have their origins in Turkey and with the rise of agriculture, but only because Neolithic herders from Turkey (or Armenia or Iran or northern Mesopotamia) migrated to the Pontic Steppe, then invaded Europe in the Bronze Age and reached Ireland c. 4000 years ago (2000 years after Neolithic farmers).

I used to more strongly believe that, but now I'm only about 70 percent sure of that. I have some trouble reconciling:

1) The Bell Beaker R1b results (it would help if we had better resolution)
2) The Basque autosomal (and mtdna) results - one of the highest European R1b (85%) but one of the lowest ANE (11.4%)
3) The published findings of R1b among Native American tribes (also it would help if we had better resolution)
 
they obviously mean that haplogroup R1b was brought by Neolithic farmers. It's unbelievable that there are still population geneticists who clinch to that idea.
Unbelievable is that here on this site people ignore scientific findings that R1b in Western Europe is result of spread of agriculture. I haven't seen even one academic paper suggesting that R1b founder effect could be simultaneous to spread of Indo-European languages. Mainstream science attributed the spread of R1b in Western Europe the Neolithic revolution for last four years. In contrast, anyone who tries to connect spread of R1b to the expansion of Indo-European languages ​​invents exotic theories that have no scientific background. E.g. Theory of IE conquest through western Europe with nearly total population replacement on more than 1 million square kilometers covered mostly with dense forest, difficult to access mountains, swamps and islands located far away from continental Europe, that is just preposterous, or some twisted theory about Basque's origins, or theory that R1b men produces more boys. While widely accepted theory of spread of agriculture need no such conditions, if farmers ware able to produce enough food to sustain 7 to 9 times higher population density it is enough to them to come to Europe dominated by hunter-gatherers and start to farming to produce 70% R1b ( farmers) and 10 I ( hunter gathers).
Theory that R1b was brought by Indo-Europeans is just wishful thinking.
 
Unbelievable is that here on this site people ignore scientific findings that R1b in Western Europe is result of spread of agriculture. I haven't seen even one academic paper suggesting that R1b founder effect could be simultaneous to spread of Indo-European languages. Mainstream science attributed the spread of R1b in Western Europe the Neolithic revolution for last four years. In contrast, anyone who tries to connect spread of R1b to the expansion of Indo-European languages ​​invents exotic theories that have no scientific background. E.g. Theory of IE conquest through western Europe with nearly total population replacement on more than 1 million square kilometers covered mostly with dense forest, difficult to access mountains, swamps and islands located far away from continental Europe, that is just preposterous, or some twisted theory about Basque's origins, or theory that R1b men produces more boys. While widely accepted theory of spread of agriculture need no such conditions, if farmers ware able to produce enough food to sustain 7 to 9 times higher population density it is enough to them to come to Europe dominated by hunter-gatherers and start to farming to produce 70% R1b ( farmers) and 10 I ( hunter gathers).
Theory that R1b was brought by Indo-Europeans is just wishful thinking.

1/ there is no ancient R1b/R1a DNA in Europe prior to IE expansion into Europe

2/ estimated time of expansion of R1a/R1b matches first IE expansions from the steppe

3/ first agriculturists were very primitive, no plough, no draugth animals, no milk processing nor digesting

4/ IE people brought a lot of novelties and another, superior economy, that how there languages could spread

Unbelievable is that here on this site people ignore scientific findings : please reveal your sources
 
1/ there is no ancient R1b/R1a DNA in Europe prior to IE expansion into Europe

2/ estimated time of expansion of R1a/R1b matches first IE expansions from the steppe

3/ first agriculturists were very primitive, no plough, no draugth animals, no milk processing nor digesting

4/ IE people brought a lot of novelties and another, superior economy, that how there languages could spread

Unbelievable is that here on this site people ignore scientific findings : please reveal your sources
1. There are two Bell-Beaker samples from Kromsdorf, Germany. Article
Moreover there is only three other samples from central Europe. Article
2. Coalescent time for European R1b points exactly to spread of agriculture, R1b-U106 8742+/-1551 YBP and R1b-S116 8630+/-1529 YBP. Article (2010)
Later paper even argued that European R1b could be even older. Article (2012)
Coalescent time of R1a points exactly to spread of Indo-European languages, R1a-M417 ~5800 YBP. Article (2014)

Archeologists and historians proved long time ago that spread of Celtic languages was late process connected to spread of Hallstatt and later La Tene cultures.
Statements 3 and 4 may be true, but irrelevant to the topic.

I would gladly read academic paper about connection between R1b and Indo-Europeans if there was any. Cloud you provide one?
 
1/ there is no ancient R1b/R1a DNA in Europe prior to IE expansion into Europe

2/ estimated time of expansion of R1a/R1b matches first IE expansions from the steppe

3/ first agriculturists were very primitive, no plough, no draugth animals, no milk processing nor digesting

4/ IE people brought a lot of novelties and another, superior economy, that how there languages could spread

Unbelievable is that here on this site people ignore scientific findings : please reveal your sources
you are right both r1a and r1b migrated out of india into europe the homeland of haplogroup R is india (hence we call ourselves indoeuropeans)
r1a came in from the east and r1b from the west.
 
you are right both r1a and r1b migrated out of india into europe the homeland of haplogroup R is india (hence we call ourselves indoeuropeans)
r1a came in from the east and r1b from the west.
You are killing us with your "science". Are you Vedun or his apostol.
 
You are killing us with your "science". Are you Vedun or his apostol.
i´m not into mainstream science :rolleyes: truth always reveals itself

sometimes pictures reveal more than thousand words..

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https://borissoff.wordpress.com/tag/sanskrit-russian/

Middle English brother, from Old English brōþor, from Proto-Germanic *brōþēr (compare West Frisian broer, Dutch broeder, German Bruder, Danish broder), from Proto-Indo-European *bʰréh₂tēr (compare Irish bráthair, Latin frāter, Ancient Greek φράτηρ (phratēr), Tocharian A pracar, B procer, Russian брат (brat), Lithuanian brolis, Persian برادر (barādar), Sanskrit and Hindi भ्रातृ (bhrātṛ)).

oh such coincidences.. same haplogroup and same protolanguage :) ignorance is not bliss
 
You must have a genetic sequencer in your eyes, lol.
i dont need one. cause any man with knowledge in genetics should know the irsh are dominated by haplogroup R as well as the indians (UNDENIABLE)

and also you should know where red and blonde hair come from (oca1b) tyrosinase defect common in all different phenotypes

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/337981147006160611/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/337981147006423708/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/337981147006160612/
 
R* originated in Central Asia/Siberia. So did N*, Q*, O*. Some of these guys moved to the middle east and other went to East Asia/North America. The Split happened somewhere between 40.000 and 50.000 AFAIK. Indians are genetically intermediate between East and West Eurasians.
 
R* originated in Central Asia/Siberia. So did N*, Q*, O*. Some of these guys moved to the middle east and other went to East Asia/North America. The Split happened somewhere between 40.000 and 50.000 AFAIK. Indians are genetically intermediate between East and West Eurasians.

R* became extinct and was renamed to MA-1

basal R-m207 has origins in Malaysia

basal R1 has originas in central asia

basal R2 has origins in north India


read karafet paper june 2014
 

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