PDA

View Full Version : Fino-ugrian influences in Russian folk customs&lifestyle and so on



mihaitzateo
14-07-14, 21:37
I was wondering,since Russia seems to be Slavic people mixed with lots of Fino-ugrian people,about influences of Fino-ugrian people into Russia folk customs,lifestyle and other influences.

I will start with some observations :
-the bear is considered a holy animal at Feno-Ugrian people. Is also known that the bear is considered the symbol of Russia.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/207665/Finno-Ugric-religion/65431/Sacred-animals
"n the “hunters’ religion” preserved among the northern Finno-Ugric peoples, bear (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/57309/bear) ceremonies are central. The Khanty, Mansi, Nenets, Sami, Finns, and Karelians have all been acquainted with myths and rites connected with the bear. The myths recount that the bear is of heavenly origin and is the son of the god of the sky; it descends from heaven and, when it dies, returns there. There is also a story about a marriage between a bear and a woman from which a tribe of the Skolt Sami (in Finland) is said to be descended. The bear-killing ceremony is divided into two acts—the killing itself and the feast afterward. Killing a bear that was protected by a forest guardian spirit involved a complicated ritual, which ended with bringing the bear home. Women believed that they had to keep at a distance so that the bear would not make them pregnant. The feast to celebrate the killing of the bear lasted two days and was full of marriage symbolism. The bear was addressed euphemistically, and a young man or woman was chosen to be its mate. A large meal made of the meat of the bear was consumed. Finally, the skull of the bear was carried in procession to the branch of a pine tree on the top of a mountain. This was the custom in Karelia (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/312249/Karelian). A number of miniature dramas were connected with Ob Ugrian bear rites. Masked participants tell the bear that members of a strange tribe have killed it. There seems to be a historical connection among the bear ceremonies of Ob Ugrians, Karelians, Finns, and Sami. Nowhere else in the wide Arctic sphere have the bear songs and dramas taken such a prominent place as in this hunting ritual."
Now about bear in Russia:
The Bear — a significant factor of Russian culture - appears in many Russian literary works, folk tales, epics, proverbs and sayings (http://russia-ic.com/culture_art/literature/1057/), not infrequently acting as a protagonist. The Bear was the emblem of the XXII Olympic Games held in Moscow in 1980.
Russian Bear
http://russia-ic.com/img/culture_art/rus_bear_01.jpg It is needless to say that in Europe, America, and probably all over the world the bear is strongly associated with Russia and the Russian statehood. Therefore the bear in Russia is more than just a bear. Initially the bear as the symbol of Russian state appeared in Europe as personification of slowness, laziness, barbarity and aggression, which evokes in Europeans the feeling of their own superiority to the non-civilized "neighbour" and also the feeling of fear and, consequently, the desire to chain it. Certainly, Russia repeatedly gave its neighbours some grounds for fear, however, if Russian bear did not exist, one should have made it up. The thing is that the bear is the image helping politicians of the West to convince the citizens of Russia’s aggression and thus expand the influence of NATO on the east. For more than 300 years already the bear has invariably been a character of political feuilletons and caricatures.
In Russian culture the bear traditionally appears as the image of a good-natured and a somewhat dumb animal, undoubtedly possessing certain charisma. In folklore the Bear is usually named affectionately and respectfully as a man: Mishka, Mihailo Potapych, Toptygin, etc. So it is evident that the Bear is more likely a kind neigbour, or a guard, never a tyrant. Emblems of Russian cities say about the same thing.
Bears as City Emblems
http://russia-ic.com/img/culture_art/gerb_yaroslavl.jpg Among the land emblems of Russia before Peter the First, there were three emblems with the images of bears. Two emblem bears appeared during the rule of Ivan the Terrible and were present at the stamps of his reign - first of all the well-known Big State Stamp made at the late 1570th (not later than in August 1578), during the Livonian war. However, all the three emblems with bears took their final shape only in 1672, when they were enlisted in the Title Book among other land emblems.
Bears there are not simply represented in their natural state: every one of them has its special attributes, which make researchers look for suitable interpretations. It is interesting that all the three bears are interfaced to concrete territories of the north and northeast of Russia, and those that were once perceived as marginal and somewhat peripheral lands, such as Novgorod, Yaroslavl and even farther Perm.
The Novgorod bear had the state and political meaning of the guard, whereas Yaroslavl and Perm bears reflected essential cultural models. The first one stands for the single combat and the victory over the bear of the prince, also interpreted as the victory of Christianity over paganism, and the second one symbolizes Christianization in its religious and educational aspect. If the Yaroslavl emblem has an element of violence, the "quieter" Perm emblem conveys rather peaceful introduction into the new belief.
In XVIII-XIX centuries some more bears appeared in the Russian territorial and city heraldry. Partly they originated from Yaroslavl (the arms of Maloyaroslavets), and partly boasted more original appearance: a bear in its den in the emblem of Ust-Sysolsk, or a bear climbing a pine to get honey in the emblem of Sosnitsy – those depicted local natural peculiarities of the land.
The Russian bear was and remains a part of everyday life, and even gaining weight in recent years. It is sufficient to have a look at the titles of articles recently published in world press ('Russian bear comes back', 'Awakening of Russian bear', and ‘Russian bear plays muscles') to realize the meaning of this symbol in politics and culture. The bear became an emblem of the political movement 'Edinstvo' (Unity), and following that of the party 'Edinaya Rossia’ (United Russia). Now, when the President of Russia has the 'the bear’s surname’ the symbol has gained refreshed popularity
- See more at: http://russia-ic.com/culture_art/traditions/1074#.U8Qw_0A0bEQ"

mihaitzateo
14-07-14, 21:44
A little more,about the resemblances between Fino-Ugrian folk customs and Russian customs,not with a stunning resemblance,about bears:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_mythology
"Although the gradual influence of surrounding cultures raised the significance of the sky-god in a monolatristic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatrism) manner, the father god "Ukko" (Old Man) was originally just a nature spirit like all the others. Of the animals, the most sacred was the bear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear), whose real name was never uttered out loud, lest his kind be unfavorable to the hunting. The bear ("karhu" in Finnish) was seen as the embodiment of the forefathers, and for this reason it was called by many euphemisms: mesikämmen ("mead-paw"), otso ("browed one"), kontio ("dweller of the land"), lakkapoika ("cloudberry boy"), metsän kultaomena ("the golden apple of the forest") but not a god."
And a similar folk custom in Russian folk customs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misha
"
In Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language), Misha is a short form (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_personal_name#Full_.28formal.29_and_short_ forms) for the Russian male name Mikhail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail) (Michael), and Mishka is a diminutive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_personal_name#Diminutive_forms) of Misha.
This name, in any of its forms, is a common colloquialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloquialism) in Russian for a bear, because it is similar to the standard name for bear медведь (medved). Also, most anthropomorphic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphic) bears in Russian fairy tales have this name. It is thought to originate as euphemism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism) for medved, which was tabooed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taboo) because of magical thinking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking) that letting out the "true name" of the dangerous animal may cause it to come and attack. Medved (which means "honey eater") itself is thought to be older Proto-Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic) euphemism for Proto-Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) *r̥kþos."

So at both Fino-Ugric and Russian people,was taboo to say the word bear.

Maciamo
18-07-14, 08:09
Many cultures from central Europe to Northeast Asia use the bear has a symbol. For example the bear is the symbol of the city of Berlin and Bern, and both city names claim an etymological connection with 'bear'. The culture that is, to the my knowledge, the most strongly associated with bears is that of the Ainu (Y-DNA C3 and D2) in northern Japan (mostly Hokkaido). The Ainu used to hunt bear to eat them and dressed in bear skin. They believed it conferred them special power.

matbir
18-07-14, 14:02
Many cultures from central Europe to Northeast Asia use the bear has a symbol. For example the bear is the symbol of the city of Berlin and Bern, and both city names claim an etymological connection with 'bear'. The culture that is, to the my knowledge, the most strongly associated with bears is that of the Ainu (Y-DNA C3 and D2) in northern Japan (mostly Hokkaido). The Ainu used to hunt bear to eat them and dressed in bear skin. They believed it conferred them special power. Whole European forest area was full of analogies in worship of the animals leaving there, especially those dengerous. Bear is popular i coats of arms of European cities and nobel families.

BTW etymology of Berlin has no connection to bear - it is folk myth. Reinhold Trautmann suggested that Berlin is driven from Slavic name Bratoslav abbreviated to Bral, other suggestion is that name of the city is driven from Slavic brlo which mean swamp.

Vedun
18-07-14, 17:58
The old name for Berlin was Berlo or Berlog. Berlog means "Bear's lair" in Slavic, hence the word BER was also an ancient Slavic word for a Medved ("the one who knows honey") or Bear.

mihaitzateo
19-07-14, 14:27
Here is an article that shows that even Russian language suffered influences from Fino-Ugric people that those Eastern Slavs assimilated:
http://languagesoftheworld.info/russia-ukraine-and-the-caucasus/finnic-traits-in-russian.html

Vedun
20-07-14, 18:13
Wow, the author has found 1 word in Russian which COULD have the Suomi origin? I can give you 300 words in Swedish and at least 50 in Finnic which are of Slavic or Sanskrit origin. Not to mention Romanian language...People are looking at these things like a taboo...But it was not. World in current Asia, Europe was once (12 000 - 6th c. "AD") much more related than is today, believe it or not..

Vedun
20-07-14, 18:21
Suomi people have many things which were common with Russian mythology and language and vice versa, because they were both influenced by ancient Vedic and Shamanic cultures..

Vedun
20-07-14, 21:45
"In Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language), Misha is a short form (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_personal_name#Full_.28formal.29_and_short_ forms) for the Russian male name Mikhail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail) (Michael), and Mishka is a diminutive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_personal_name#Diminutive_forms) of Misha.
This name, in any of its forms, is a common colloquialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloquialism) in Russian for a bear, because it is similar to the standard name for bear медведь (medved). Also, most anthropomorphic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphic) bears in Russian fairy tales have this name. It is thought to originate as euphemism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism) for medved, which was tabooed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taboo) because of magical thinking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking) that letting out the "true name" of the dangerous animal may cause it to come and attack. Medved (which means "honey eater") itself is thought to be older Proto-Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic) euphemism for Proto-Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) *r̥kþos."

So at both Fino-Ugric and Russian people,was taboo to say the word bear."

It is clear the author of this article was non Slavic and did not even know the basic meanings of the words behind "Mishka", "misha", etc... Misha means a "Mous" in loving form; a pet. Mishka is a "diminutive" of Misha, which means "a little mouse". The symbol of a bear was believed to belong to a god Korant or Kurent, who was chaising away the Morana's winter... Medved was called that way because "he knows the Honey" (Ved = "scholar, scientist,..." (Veda) and Med = honey). Note that the "etymology" on Wikipedia about Medved is false. It seems like somebody wanted to hide the meaning of the VEDA (knowledge) behind it...Vedet, "to know things"; ve (he/she/it knows)... The correct transliteration as "Honey eater" would be like that: "Medyesch" or "Medyet /medyed")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear

http://s4.uploads.ru/t/UwoCr.jpg

The "areole" above the head of the 'saint' also predates the Christianity...

The god Volos (Veles) was a shapeshifter; his appearances were in the skin of a wolf, bear, snake, bull and black rooster. His companion was a Goddess of the "Underworld", Morana...
Both of them ruled over the Nav or Underworld (Winter sky (astronomy) and Astral (=Abrahamic(Christian, Jewish, Islamic), Egyptian Heaven). The priest called Volhv (in my homeland was a hierarchy of these priests and priestesses until the late 1970...) was also a shapeshifter...
A Bear was believed to be a Master and guardian of the forests, an animal which was accompanied by god Kurent or Korant...

https://gtpimagesandsoundsofmycountryseptember2012.pbworks .com/f/1352839168/kurenti2.jpg

Korant was/is chasing away the winter and bringing back the Spring... It was a cult of the Fertility. If Korant was accompanied by a Bear then this means that it was also a symbol of fertility among old Slavs...
Sadly this cult remained until today partially forgotten... Christianity was destroying everything which was not Abrahamic (non Brahmanic).
In my country there existed another god called Hostnik (Hosta = "Gozd"; H/G in several dialects; hence "Gozdnik"- "Forest-er"; a god of Forests ). He did not like humans, but was appearing to them in the form of a Bear or deer,... He was a guardian of the forests; he was taking care over the animals living there...

Vedun
20-07-14, 22:04
Romanians and Slavs and probably Albanians all knew/know the vampires called Shtrige... this is one of few mythological identical beings which survived until today in our territories...

LeBrok
20-07-14, 22:26
Many bordering nations or ethnicities will influence each other, both culturally and genetically. I would be surprised if there was no cultural exchange between Finno-Ugric and Slavic Russian. Also geographically speaking these two cultures know many same animals. As such they were the spirits and gods in pagan religions of this region and in folk stories surviving till today.

mihaitzateo
21-07-14, 10:29
Many bordering nations or ethnicities will influence each other, both culturally and genetically. I would be surprised if there was no cultural exchange between Finno-Ugric and Slavic Russian. Also geographically speaking these two cultures know many same animals. As such they were the spirits and gods in pagan religions of this region and in folk stories surviving till today.
Yes,I was thinking same,that it would be quite impossible that Fino-Ugrians did not influenced the formation of Russian ethnicity,cause the genetics,is clear they influenced a lot.
But try to explain that to some Pan-Slavist people :D.
I got almost eliminated on a FB group about Slavic people,because I said Russian are quite mixed,as genetics,with Fino-Ugrians (and my post was deleted),if I would have said that there is Fino-Ugrians influenced the language and the culture of Russians,guess I would have been eliminated from that group.
I mean,would be very unlikely that Eastern Slavs did not took anything from Fino-Ugric people that they assimilated and near which they lived such a long time.

Vedun
21-07-14, 10:48
I have already said the Romanians are not an exception in mix-breeding, neither are germans, austrians, french, neither are russians, etc. And secondly, Fino Ugrian Y haplogroup N in Russia is bellow 20%. Genetic studies show that modern Russians do not differ significantly from Poles, Slovenians, or Ukrainians. Some ethnographers, like Zelenin, affirm that Russians are more similar to Belarusians and Ukrainians than southern Russians are to northern Russians. Russians in northern European Russia share moderate genetic similarities with Uralic peoples...Regards to Romania; the second highest percentage among Romanian patrimonial haplogroups is R1a, which did not originate from the Latin/Romance speaking people (the same with Hungarians who carry this patrimonial DNA)...

mihaitzateo
21-07-14, 14:14
I have already said the Romanians are not an exception in mix-breeding, neither are germans, austrians, french, neither are russians, etc. And secondly, Fino Ugrian Y haplogroup N in Russia is bellow 20%. Genetic studies show that modern Russians do not differ significantly from Poles, Slovenians, or Ukrainians. Some ethnographers, like Zelenin, affirm that Russians are more similar to Belarusians and Ukrainians than southern Russians are to northern Russians. Russians in northern European Russia share moderate genetic similarities with Uralic peoples...Regards to Romania; the second highest percentage among Romanian patrimonial haplogroups is R1a, which did not originate from the Latin/Romance speaking people (the same with Hungarians who carry this patrimonial DNA)...


In whole Russia N averages 23% from the paternal lines.
In North Russia N is the most common paternal line.
As for R1A,that can be hardly said as being "pure Slavic" since there are lot of branches of R1A and I am sure only some of those are associated with Slavic people.
But Russia has also other paternal lines,which are clearly not associated with Slavs,like I1 which averages 5% ,R1B which averages 6% and so on.
Normally,people from different ethnicities in Europe accept that their ethnicity was born from mixing of more people,from different ethnicities and their language is born from multiple languages.

However,when it comes to Albanians and Slavs,they are genetically pure Albanians,not mixed with anyone else,or genetically pure Slavs,not mixed with anyone else.
Now coming back to Russians,why their folk costumes are so different when compared to those of the people from Belarus?

Vedun
22-07-14, 17:21
I laugh when trols and slavophobes try to spread their "ideas" about non-existence of Slavs... Why is R1a1a (especially) a Slavic patrimonial branch is clear from the map (also from the purest logic - about these VAST areas and not tiny dots, claimed by Hungarophiles, Albanophiles or who ever else

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/10/800px-R1a1a_distribution.jpg

What is the officially accepted Slavic homeland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs#mediaviewer/File:Balto-Slavic_lng.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Slavic_distribution_origin.png

It is the area around the Black sea. Correct? So what is the origin of R1a haplogroup? There exist 2 theories: India and area around the Black sea; The newest studies indicate it emerged from the areas around the Black sea... This clearly satisfies the questions about the Slavic (especially Antes) homeland... R1a1a is clearly 'native' to Slavs, which is even proved and confirmed by Anatole Klyosov (I have recently noticed this scientist).
http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/~aklyosov/

...
http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=17707#.U86BQEA0_XQ

Of course you will now say that Slavs came from China(as being "Mongols"; as Slavophobic favorite claims).
But there were also found mummies with R1a1a patrimonial haplogroup, which is today most common among Russians, Polish, Slovak and Slovene people...

I also find it "funny" when I read nonsense about the "Chinese European western mummies" or even theories about "ancient Nephilims", which are spreading over the internet like a plague... The R1a1a haplogroup was almost wiped out from the western Europe as happened also in China, like the indication "you do not belong here" - and vice versa, to the R1b population in Asia...Chinese government was/is even destroying evidences of these people, to hide the 'shoching' fact about their earliest presence in the Chinese territories!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRj-IR5Aqbg

About your question about the DIVERSE Russian and Belorussian culture. Well when you possess such vast territories, don't you think you wouldn't wear a different clothes and speak a different dialect over some period of time? We Slovenes know at least 20 different types of folk costumes, we speak over 48 different local dialects and subdialects among 7 regional groups;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_dialects
we can barelly understand each other when we speak our own languages or do not understand each other at all... (Resian and Prekmurian language have their own status).
Slavic languages and culture is diverse, the claims that our ancestors(from 3 different Slavic tribes) all came from "1 source", somewhere in Asia is also a nonsense. But i am speaking about the Antes (among Veneti and Sclavines, described by Jordanes) here, carriers of the R1a1a haplogroup... which indeed originated in current Ukraine, Russia.

mihaitzateo
23-07-14, 10:22
I have not said that Slavs do not exist,is clear that they exist,as a ethno-linguistic group.
The connection on language is much stronger than the connection on common folk customs,music,dressing.
No idea when Slavic language formed,but from what proofs exists now,no more than 2000 years ago.
I will study more,about the Fino-Ugrian influences in Russia.
I noticed that for example the folk costumes from Russia are rather closed to Ugric people costumes,than to Poles people.
Now please have common sense and stop posting non-sense on this thread,that is not linked to thread,like maps of R1A - which are really ridiculous,since in India,Afganistan,Iran there is a lot of R1A.
As for Slovene,sure the costumes are diverse ,they were also influenced by other ethnicities like Germans,Italic people and so on.

Vedun
23-07-14, 19:36
Where do you have a proof that Slavs did not exist 2000 years ago? There is no proof that they did not exist.. Sadly they did not left behind almost anything written which could predate the 5st century "AD". But this is not a problem to me anymore, because i KNOW the Vedas (Rg Veda, Sama Veda, Agrahayana, YajurVeda, Mahabharata, Ramayana, etc) and I know poems, sayings, "myths" which survived for example in Slovene mythology. Those tales are in fact identical to the Vedic stories... I can not believe how our "linguists" and "etymologists" missed that treasure... They were only seeing primitive messages in those fables and tales, but i have found at least 10 Vedic stories which indicates that Slavs INDEED shared Vedic background (not only in the linguistic form of Sanskrit) at some period of time... My question is (which i am trying to understand and found out): where and when did they come across with Vedic Rishis. Did that happen in India or India (Bharat) included also areas in current Siberia (the land of Antes; Slavs)... In fact I have found out that Slavic god Svetovid (or Swantevit or whatever) was actually Vedic god Shiva! (Sveta-Vidya; "holy (world) seer" - the Cosmogonial tales which survived in my country so vividly (there survived actually even 4-5 forms of the same story), this is how the ancient Slavs encoded the meanings of the words, like the term for a HuMan (the Germanic term Man also shares similarities with Sanskrit Vedic Manu) as Človek or Čelovek, where they've simply combined 2 words: Vek (Vek or Vijek = transmutation of YUGA into V-YUGA or V-YUKA("era") and Čelo (Chelo) as a Forhead (the message of the Forhead is hidden in the Mangalaloka story of Shiva; which is IDENTICAL to our Cosmogonial myth of Svetovid and his "forhead" (do you remember the "red dot" in the middle of the Forhead, which is part of a "folklore", let's say, among Hindus still today?) Why was the Forhead so important in this ancient Vedic story of the appearance of the "1. human being on planet Earth" (which is described as the "little rounded stone which floats in the Great Sea" - according to the Slovene Cosmogonial myth of god Svetovid)? Simply because of the flat forhead of Homo Sapiens. This Forhead makes us different from other apes. Because we can understand and know (Vemo (Veda) things...like Shiva did.
When god Shiva was meditating in the state called Samadhi, the drop of (his thought) came down his forhead and fell to the Mangala graha (Mars and Earth are in Vedas described as the origin of Humans). In our mythology the tale says "when Svetovid was traveling among the Stars, to observe them as his creation of his Mind (this is where the form of SvetoVid (Video) comes from; "to see things"; "World seer"), he become tired and "slept" (the message in this "dream" is further explained in the Vedic story of Mangalaloka; where Shiva was also "sleeping" (meditating) in the state called Samadhi (also check: Edgar Dean Mitchell's (american astronaut of the Apollo 14) explanation of this state of mind) - and from his forhead fell to the Earth (prst in Slovene is equal to the Sanskrit word "prthvi"; "earth") drop and this drop was a living being called Human. (drop of sweat - kaplja is similar to the Sanskrit word "Kalpa" (era. NOTE: Vedas describe the Start and End of this Universe, called Brahma. Brahma has 100 years; 100 Brahma years is equal to the Age of entire creation, this is 313 trillion human years...
One Day of Brahma=8.64 Billion years.=1Kalpa ("Kaplja", "drop" - era) of his "sweat"...

One Brahma year = 30 days multiplied by 12 = 30 x 8.64Billion years x 12 = 3.1104 Trillion years.
50 (this is where the LATER occult word "ABRAHAM" comes from; "50 human years") Years of God Brahma = 3.1104 x 10 to the power 12 x 50 = 155.52 Trillion Years = Para ("part") ardham
.Total Age of Cosmos or creation=100 Brahma years=2*50 Brahma Years=2*155.52Trillion years=313 trillion human years=Param or Paraa.. So the total time elapsed since current Brahma is
155.52 x 10 to the power 12 + 1.973x10 (according to the Vedic Macro and Micro time) 9 + 0.00012053302 = 155.52 Trillion Years
This called Param,that is total age of God Brahma=Total life of Cosmos.

Now, Brahma (Universe as a total; Brahmaloka; our Galaxy is Svargaloka; where Slavic god Svarog or Svarun (=Vedic Varuna) rules over the Svarga (Milky way) ) is in his Second Para Ardham.More than 50 years old (51 )
After his "49 years", the Shiva (Svetovid) will destroy the Universe and Vishnu (Višji; "the one who is above") will create the New Universe... (this is the concept of the Multi-Universes; our Universe is only 1 "bubble" among others... and those "bubbles" build much higher structures in higher Universe and those Universes build higher structures, etc etc)

This drop of Shiva became the 1. human being. So what is the message in this story? Human is part of the mind of Shiva (Svetovid)...
Do you still believe that Slavs did not exist 2000 years ago when Vedas are much ancient than that? The word "pagan" becomes useless here. That's why I simply did not see at these messages as part of some primitive folklore... The messages are much deeper, much more ancient than any "linguist" or "etymologist" thinks today (especially through the Christian ("western" )Theological prism...

Everything in Vedas is becoming clearer to me with each story i read... when you understand the language of Sanskrit and your own ancestors it opens another Door to you... It is like an Adventure and "revelation" to me. Because i do not worship these things as Hindus do, I simply understand them through different sources and through the Language...

Tilaka, the simbol of a Human being - as an incarnation of the mind of Shiva into a Flesh (DNA)...

http://www.ancient-symbols.com/images/symbol-directory/tilaka.jpg

http://www.gurujiofgurgaon.in/shiva01.jpg

http://svarozikrug.weebly.com/uploads/4/2/4/4/4244718/445893393.gif

"All seeing" - Svetovid"
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Swiatowit3011.jpg/220px-Swiatowit3011.jpg

http://www.richardcassaro.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Bronx-Zoo-Egypt-India-Third-Eye.jpg


http://consciouslifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/ThirdEye.jpg

I hope I've explained to you who and what is a Human... and why Slavs are much "older" than 2000 years...

mihaitzateo
26-07-14, 18:03
Lol Vedun are you serious when you are telling that Slavs are coming from India?
You said that Veles is a shape-shifter,now Fino-Ugrian people were having Shamanic beliefs so this could be easily understood if Slavic people developed near Fino-Ugric people.
And borrowed from them some Shamanic beliefs in their religion.
Now if you go further and see that Perun who is the other major deity of old Slavic religion and is also the god of thunder,has as enemy Veles we can already clearly a resemblance to Scandinavian religion,where Odin a major deity of Scandinavian religion,which is also the god of thunder,has as enemy the wolf Fenrir who is foretold to kill Odin,the resemblance is already stunning.
Speculating a little further,we can wonder if Perun and Odin were deities brought by Indo-European people,while Fenrir and Veles were deities borrowed from Feno-Ugrian people to which both Scandinavian Germanic people and Eastern Slavic people were connected to.
And making an even larger speculation,we can think that Indo-European people,Germanic and Slavic,were handling weapons and using fire to craft weapons,being much more advanced,as technology,that Fino-Ugrian people they conquered.
But Feno-Ugrian people were much more stronger as physique and were also using nature in fighting the Indo-European conquerors.

To make things more clear,a short explanation:

_____Indo-European people deity________________________Fino-Ugrian borrowed people deity,enemy of IE brought deity
Slavs__Perun,also god of thunder_________________________Veles,shapeshifter ,also taking the form of a wolf
Norse___Odin,also the god of thunder__________________________Fenrir,a wolf
germanics
EDIT:
Another nice resemblance,both Old Norse and Old Slavic and Old Finnic religions have the motif of the world tree.
At Old Slavic and Old Finnic religions this tree is an oak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tree

Sile
26-07-14, 21:44
I laugh when trols and slavophobes try to spread their "ideas" about non-existence of Slavs... Why is R1a1a (especially) a Slavic patrimonial branch is clear from the map (also from the purest logic - about these VAST areas and not tiny dots, claimed by Hungarophiles, Albanophiles or who ever else

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2012/10/800px-R1a1a_distribution.jpg

What is the officially accepted Slavic homeland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs#mediaviewer/File:Balto-Slavic_lng.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Slavic_distribution_origin.png

It is the area around the Black sea. Correct? So what is the origin of R1a haplogroup? There exist 2 theories: India and area around the Black sea; The newest studies indicate it emerged from the areas around the Black sea... This clearly satisfies the questions about the Slavic (especially Antes) homeland... R1a1a is clearly 'native' to Slavs, which is even proved and confirmed by Anatole Klyosov (I have recently noticed this scientist).
http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/~aklyosov/

...
http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=17707#.U86BQEA0_XQ

Of course you will now say that Slavs came from China(as being "Mongols"; as Slavophobic favorite claims).
But there were also found mummies with R1a1a patrimonial haplogroup, which is today most common among Russians, Polish, Slovak and Slovene people...

I also find it "funny" when I read nonsense about the "Chinese European western mummies" or even theories about "ancient Nephilims", which are spreading over the internet like a plague... The R1a1a haplogroup was almost wiped out from the western Europe as happened also in China, like the indication "you do not belong here" - and vice versa, to the R1b population in Asia...Chinese government was/is even destroying evidences of these people, to hide the 'shoching' fact about their earliest presence in the Chinese territories!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRj-IR5Aqbg

About your question about the DIVERSE Russian and Belorussian culture. Well when you possess such vast territories, don't you think you wouldn't wear a different clothes and speak a different dialect over some period of time? We Slovenes know at least 20 different types of folk costumes, we speak over 48 different local dialects and subdialects among 7 regional groups;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_dialects
we can barelly understand each other when we speak our own languages or do not understand each other at all... (Resian and Prekmurian language have their own status).
Slavic languages and culture is diverse, the claims that our ancestors(from 3 different Slavic tribes) all came from "1 source", somewhere in Asia is also a nonsense. But i am speaking about the Antes (among Veneti and Sclavines, described by Jordanes) here, carriers of the R1a1a haplogroup... which indeed originated in current Ukraine, Russia.

you do know that R1a formed in South-asia along with R1b and R2.

if its parent P is known to have formed in Malaysia ( south-east asia) , then you top map of the indian R1 is the correct origin.
most likely one group of R1 went in Nw direction to create R1a and the other R1 went west into persia to create R1b

Sile
26-07-14, 21:51
Lol Vedun are you serious when you are telling that Slavs are coming from India?
You said that Veles is a shape-shifter,now Fino-Ugrian people were having Shamanic beliefs so this could be easily understood if Slavic people developed near Fino-Ugric people.
And borrowed from them some Shamanic beliefs in their religion.
Now if you go further and see that Perun who is the other major deity of old Slavic religion and is also the god of thunder,has as enemy Veles we can already clearly a resemblance to Scandinavian religion,where Odin a major deity of Scandinavian religion,which is also the god of thunder,has as enemy the wolf Fenrir who is foretold to kill Odin,the resemblance is already stunning.
Speculating a little further,we can wonder if Perun and Odin were deities brought by Indo-European people,while Fenrir and Veles were deities borrowed from Feno-Ugrian people to which both Scandinavian Germanic people and Eastern Slavic people were connected to.
And making an even larger speculation,we can think that Indo-European people,Germanic and Slavic,were handling weapons and using fire to craft weapons,being much more advanced,as technology,that Fino-Ugrian people they conquered.
But Feno-Ugrian people were much more stronger as physique and were also using nature in fighting the Indo-European conquerors.

To make things more clear,a short explanation:

_____Indo-European people deity________________________Fino-Ugrian borrowed people deity,enemy of IE brought deity
Slavs__Perun,also god of thunder_________________________Veles,shapeshifter ,also taking the form of a wolf
Norse___Odin,also the god of thunder__________________________Fenrir,a wolf
germanics
EDIT:
Another nice resemblance,both Old Norse and Old Slavic and Old Finnic religions have the motif of the world tree.
At Old Slavic and Old Finnic religions this tree is an oak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tree

since slavic is not an ethnic identity in the ancient times , but simply a linguistic identity , then "slavs" migrated from India to Ukraine and settled there for a very long time, while there for centuries upon centuries, they developed this language called slavic............what ethnic people who moved to this ukraine land is what needs to be asked.

LeBrok
26-07-14, 22:54
since slavic is not an ethnic identity in the ancient times , but simply a linguistic identity , then "slavs" migrated from India to Ukraine and settled there for a very long time, while there for centuries upon centuries, they developed this language called slavic............what ethnic people who moved to this ukraine land is what needs to be asked.
Is language part of a culture?

mihaitzateo
26-07-14, 23:03
Well I rather think R1A formed in NE Europe .
I remember that on some blog was said how folk tales are clustering and Russian folk tales and folk tales of Slavic people were clustering with Fino-Ugrian folk tales.
http://dienekes.blogspot.ro/2013/02/clustering-folk-tales.html
So now I rather think that Slavic people formed as ethnicity near or between Fino-Ugric tales.

Yetos
26-07-14, 23:43
since slavic is not an ethnic identity in the ancient times , but simply a linguistic identity , then "slavs" migrated from India to Ukraine and settled there for a very long time, while there for centuries upon centuries, they developed this language called slavic............what ethnic people who moved to this ukraine land is what needs to be asked.

I agree, but not India, Scythia,
except Romania which has Slavic populations but seems to be influenced by Pannoni Celts and Romans even after East Roman empire
Leaving outside Croatia also as part of Austrian empire and the relations that developed that time,
we see Polish and Serbian and Czech sharing some germanic but not eastern Slavs, if we accept the nearby influence then ok,
but if not, then we must accept the Scythian/Thracian linguistic admixture and expand,
Slavic is a language that spoken and reconstructed to get its form,
reminds me the Hannover deutsch, or the Attic Greek,

I mean Greeks spoke mainly more than 4 dialects, starting fromAeolian Homer 1rst to Doric hesiodos 2nd to Ionian but after 4rth century BC we see a majority using Attic and after 2nd century start Koine, which stood until recent,
Deutsch spoke many dialects but medieval seems to prefer Hannover's dialect, which seems to be stand even today as primary Deutsch.

Something like that happened to Slavic, Slavic (might mean free people) was spoken Cyrill's time but,
Cyrill's old church Slavonic seems to be what Homer to Greek language, Goethe to Deutsch, that help reconstruct dialects and standarize, slowly by centuries after more than a millenium each dialect make its own language like Attic in Greek or hannover to Deutsch, etc etc since all literature want to be closer to people, but also keep a level of grammar, so we could have a way from Scythia forward west to Moravia and back East to Urals

what bothers me is the roll of Baltic.

mihaitzateo
27-07-14, 12:42
Well Yetos says Scythia but I do not know ,old Slavic people land seems to have a been a little more North.
You can search and see that Slavic people share with Scandinavian people the custom of burning of a log on winter solstice.
I think the origins of this celebration at both Scandinavian and Slavic people is the fact they are very North and they were missing the light and the heat.
So the custom of having a fire on Winter solstice is like having the power of light upon the power of darkness.
And the name of sun god in Old Slavic religion,Hors,rather seems linked to Old Egyptian religion Horus god.
And you can see a closed resemblance between the folk traditions on summer solstice,something with young girls seeing their partner with putting some herbs under their pillow.
This is seen at Swedes,Finns ,Romanians and I think also at Slavs.

Also,at Finns and Eastern Slavs there is the custom to light fires near the water,on winter solstice.
And the explanation,which is a little more complex is as following (not sure this is the explanation for sure):
At some Fino-Ugric people,the water is seen as a negative deity.
Now,since the sun,fire,light is the good deity,putting fires near water is like having something from the good deity to defeat the negative deity.
So this is like bringing something from the good deity over the evil deity etc.
Anyway,as I said,this is off-topic,since the thread is about Fino-Ugrian influences in Russians.

Yetos
27-07-14, 14:53
Well Yetos says Scythia but I do not know ,old Slavic people land seems to have a been a little more North.
You can search and see that Slavic people share with Scandinavian people the custom of burning of a log on winter solstice.
I think the origins of this celebration at both Scandinavian and Slavic people is the fact they are very North and they were missing the light and the heat.
So the custom of having a fire on Winter solstice is like having the power of light upon the power of darkness.
And the name of sun god in Old Slavic religion,Hors,rather seems linked to Old Egyptian religion Horus god.
And you can see a closed resemblance between the folk traditions on summer solstice,something with young girls seeing their partner with putting some herbs under their pillow.
This is seen at Swedes,Finns ,Romanians and I think also at Slavs.

Also,at Finns and Eastern Slavs there is the custom to light fires near the water,on winter solstice.
And the explanation,which is a little more complex is as following (not sure this is the explanation for sure):
At some Fino-Ugric people,the water is seen as a negative deity.
Now,since the sun,fire,light is the good deity,putting fires near water is like having something from the good deity to defeat the negative deity.
So this is like bringing something from the good deity over the evil deity etc.
Anyway,as I said,this is off-topic,since the thread is about Fino-Ugrian influences in Russians.


sorry I posted many videos, the burning log in winter solistice is ancient also in Greece, to warm Phaethon's horses,
could that mean the oposite? nah neither the Scandinavian origin.
what about Greek Χαρος Haros, could that mean that Slavs moved south to North?
Summer solistice, Christians moved it to 20 July instead of 20 June, Virgins girls go gather flowers and dress with them in order to be known by boys that are in marriage age, so in Genuary (γαμηλιων-marriage month) to get married,
the custom is known as the virgin male hunter, and if find a deer that is mark of a great but trouble fate, (Artemis-Iphigeneia etc)
as you see the customs you are mentioning exist in South (Greece) but even in France and England there were,

I posted the customs all in others threads,
and to add Greeks in late november till winter solilstice decorate their ships, outside water, with small fire lamps to honor Poseidon, not in the rivers but in the banks and shores.

I do not see something different or exclusive so Slavs be Scans,

search my posts in Forum, or ask me to reapeat the links if you are not conviced,

remember Christmas tree in Greek is Christmas ship, or huge fires in mountainers, or decoration of the goat stables.


the small lights at river i 've seen it in rivers in Serbia mostly at Giorgivdan (can't write Kyrillic) , the day of Saint george in Spring if i remember correct,

mihaitzateo
27-07-14, 16:12
sorry I posted many videos, the burning log in winter solistice is ancient also in Greece, to warm Phaethon's horses,
could that mean the oposite? nah neither the Scandinavian origin.
what about Greek Χαρος Haros, could that mean that Slavs moved south to North?
Summer solistice, Christians moved it to 20 July instead of 20 June, Virgins girls go gather flowers and dress with them in order to be known by boys that are in marriage age, so in Genuary (γαμηλιων-marriage month) to get married,
the custom is known as the virgin male hunter, and if find a deer that is mark of a great but trouble fate, (Artemis-Iphigeneia etc)
as you see the customs you are mentioning exist in South (Greece) but even in France and England there were,

I posted the customs all in others threads,
and to add Greeks in late november till winter solilstice decorate their ships, outside water, with small fire lamps to honor Poseidon, not in the rivers but in the banks and shores.

I do not see something different or exclusive so Slavs be Scans,

search my posts in Forum, or ask me to reapeat the links if you are not conviced,

remember Christmas tree in Greek is Christmas ship, or huge fires in mountainers, or decoration of the goat stables.


the small lights at river i 've seen it in rivers in Serbia mostly at Giorgivdan (can't write Kyrillic) , the day of Saint george in Spring if i remember correct,

Well at Romanians we do not have the custom of burning a log at Winter solstice.
Greeks if I remember right coulta have been influenced by Gothic people that settled in Greece,I remember that there is a story with the king of the greeks and some Goths allowed to settle in the Greek Empire (no idea if this is about Byzantine Empire).
I have seen in some Greeks Feno-Scandian DNA I have seen in other Greeks other NW/N admixtures.
So it could be a influence from Germanic that settled in Greece,considering the fact that Byzantine Empire also had Varangian guard as elite unit,formed mostly from Vikings.

Yetos
27-07-14, 16:35
Well at Romanians we do not have the custom of burning a log at Winter solstice.
Greeks if I remember right coulta have been influenced by Gothic people that settled in Greece,I remember that there is a story with the king of the greeks and some Goths allowed to settle in the Greek Empire (no idea if this is about Byzantine Empire).
I have seen in some Greeks Feno-Scandian DNA I have seen in other Greeks other NW/N admixtures.
So it could be a influence from Germanic that settled in Greece,considering the fact that Byzantine Empire also had Varangian guard as elite unit,formed mostly from Vikings.

the customs hold back to antique, Varrangians is another case, but exist in modern Greek people, many of them never return back to Scan.

Vedun
27-07-14, 17:26
Cyril has 0 to do with old slavic culture. He only perverted the older Slavic Glagolithic and "Cherty i Rezy" writing and started to spread the Christianity as a plague among Slavs... Christianity is an artificial, a non original religion. The term itself came from Byzantium from the term KRSTOS, which came from Egyptian cult of KRST (Osiris & Horus) with the Greek appendix "OS" (hence "KPCTOC" or Krstos). Heru (Horos; "Horus") came from 'Scythian' (eastern Slavic) territory of god Hors or Horo (the dance which survived until today is called HOROVOD or KHOROVOD; "Hor's cycle" (hour, ora, etc means a "cycle"). But Egyptian KRST was the 'new' version of Vedic KRISHNA or KRSNA and Aser or "Osiris" was simply Vedic ASURA (Bacchus; Bakasura). Whole Christian "mythology" includes pre christian names of saints and other mythological figures which already existed long time before the "Christianity". KRS(T)NA simply means "Incarnated (On)" -flesh (incarnated god into a flesh( Human) and it does not mean "black one" as they believe... That's why Hindus never understood all meanings in Sanskrit, because Sanskrit did not derive from "old Hindu" (only), but also from the language of old Slavs.

"

the small lights at river i 've seen it in rivers in Serbia mostly at Giorgivdan (can't write Kyrillic) , the day of Saint george in Spring if i remember correct,"

There existed a god (not a saint) Jurij or Zeleni Jurij (green Yuri); Yuri derives from YARA ("jari žito, jari"; grow grain, grow)which is still today celebrated in Bela Krajina in Slovenia. Again this has 0 to do with Christianity. Christianity only absorbed old pre Christian motives, festivals and mythology.
http://www.dolenjskilist.si/media/objave/slike/v/novice/2010/04/26/zzj10_014p.jpg

Yetos
27-07-14, 18:06
Cyril has 0 to do with old slavic culture. He only perverted the older Slavic Glagolithic and "Cherty i Rezy" writing and started to spread the Christianity as a plague among Slavs... Christianity is an artificial, a non original religion. The term itself came from Byzantium from the term KRSTOS, which came from Egyptian cult of KRST (Osiris & Horus) with the Greek appendix "OS" (hence "KPCTOC" or Krstos). Heru (Horos; "Horus") came from 'Scythian' (eastern Slavic) territory of god Hors or Horo (the dance which survived until today is called HOROVOD or KHOROVOD; "Hor's cycle" (hour, ora, etc means a "cycle"). But Egyptian KRST was the 'new' version of Vedic KRISHNA or KRSNA and Aser or "Osiris" was simply Vedic ASURA (Bacchus; Bakasura). Whole Christian "mythology" includes pre christian names of saints and other mythological figures which already existed long time before the "Christianity". KRS(T)NA simply means "Incarnated (On)" -flesh (incarnated god into a flesh( Human) and it does not mean "black one" as they believe... That's why Hindus never understood all meanings in Sanskrit, because Sanskrit did not derive from "old Hindu" (only), but also from the language of old Slavs.

"

the small lights at river i 've seen it in rivers in Serbia mostly at Giorgivdan (can't write Kyrillic) , the day of Saint george in Spring if i remember correct,"

There existed a god (not a saint) Jurij or Zeleni Jurij (green Yuri); Yuri derives from YARA ("jari žito, jari"; grow grain, grow)which is still today celebrated in Bela Krajina in Slovenia. Again this has 0 to do with Christianity. Christianity only absorbed old pre Christian motives, festivals and mythology.
http://www.dolenjskilist.si/media/objave/slike/v/novice/2010/04/26/zzj10_014p.jpg

Funny isn't it

seFunny isn't
ancient Greek Κουρητες dancers
modern Greek Χορος dance
greek Κομος Comedy dance
Greek Μωμος Mimic

Theatre has a Chord ancient Greek Χορος


about Christianity
Greek Χριστος the one who has the Chrisma, Arabs and Jewish Christians call it Messiah
what egypt has to do?

the Egyptian Chorus is Greek Χαρος the riverboat master = death
what makes you so certain that Scans find first the boat as a cofin?


pls I am a pagan, a polytheist, I know what Christians did, and the worse is what Islam is about to do.

I agree that pagan pass their believes in Christian ceremonies,

for example the fires in winter solistice are not to warm Phaethon's horses at 22-23Dec night, but 24-25 to warm up baby Jesus.

yet you are telling me nothing,
cause Greek Xristos has a meaning while has no meaning in Semitic languages.

besides the only ones who dance in Circles from antique were Greeks, Kurds and Kallasha,

wait, according Greek legacy 'don't forget to pay the fairyman',

put 2 coins, each on eyes,

if you are poor 1 in mouth lips.


http://ccs.infospace.com/ClickHandler.ashx?ld=20140727&app=1&c=qtypehosted&s=qtype&rc=qtypehosted&dc=&euip=79.107.237.217&pvaid=e0bdfccbf9a54e00bb79fd1722bc5b66&dt=Desktop&fct.uid=uid_1402589887_486719%253B%2520ws_lo&en=wFwOv0Mq3bQrK4mUr%2bVwtBgooLFrS2MRkY5nxbqb7AI%3 d&du=http%3a%2f%2fwithfriendship.com%2fimages%2fg%2f 30413%2fcharon-in-greek-mythology.jpg&ru=http%3a%2f%2fwithfriendship.com%2fimages%2fg%2f 30413%2fcharon-in-greek-mythology.jpg&ap=10&coi=772&cop=main-title&npp=10&p=0&pp=0&ep=10&mid=9&hash=4AF07E2151E0AD88C316C149A28C57A3

funny isn't it?

all that try to prove as Slavic and Scan connection existed in far far ancient Greece!!!!!

what you say now?

Oh don't forget about Sanshqrit word Veda, the Greek is Οιδα,
about Slavic Znam English know Greek is Γνωω Γνωριζομι

personally I doupt Thracian was Satem, But I am forced to accept it, since the known vocabulary is small

Besides just Think

what Slav mean?

mihaitzateo
27-07-14, 19:13
The theory that Slavs rather descend from some people that came from India on what evidences is supported?
Plenty of evidences,in addition to genetics proves that Slavs formed as ethnicity near Fino-Ugric people.
As you can see even Greeks share some customs to Eastern and Northern European people,not even Greeks (who are most Southern Europeans from Eastern Europeans) have common customs to Indians.
Only resemblance between Indians and NE people I have seen at Finns and Germanic Scandinavians,which is saying that the bride should wear gold for fertility.
But that I think is Vikings/Germanic Scandinavians influence in Finns (do not think Finnic people originally had it).
Yetos is saying that Old Greeks also has the custom of dancing in circle,now this is present at Romanians also,at Swedes,not present at Indians,but present at Kurdish people,now is also present at South Slavs etc.
I think is something dedicated to the sun,because is a circle,reminding to the shape of the sun.
Also Old Greeks had Zeus which is handling thunders,so here is a resemblance to Odin (and Hera,resembling Freya) .
So I think that Greeks also come from a more Northern land,maybe NE Europe.

Yetos
27-07-14, 21:35
The theory that Slavs rather descend from some people that came from India on what evidences is supported?
Plenty of evidences,in addition to genetics proves that Slavs formed as ethnicity near Fino-Ugric people.
As you can see even Greeks share some customs to Eastern and Northern European people,not even Greeks (who are most Southern Europeans from Eastern Europeans) have common customs to Indians.
Only resemblance between Indians and NE people I have seen at Finns and Germanic Scandinavians,which is saying that the bride should wear gold for fertility.
But that I think is Vikings/Germanic Scandinavians influence in Finns (do not think Finnic people originally had it).
Yetos is saying that Old Greeks also has the custom of dancing in circle,now this is present at Romanians also,at Swedes,not present at Indians,but present at Kurdish people,now is also present at South Slavs etc.
I think is something dedicated to the sun,because is a circle,reminding to the shape of the sun.
Also Old Greeks had Zeus which is handling thunders,so here is a resemblance to Odin (and Hera,resembling Freya) .
So I think that Greeks also come from a more Northern land,maybe NE Europe.

oh really?
since and after wich theory?

do you know that there was a city name Warsiwa (warsowy?) in Anatolia 4 ky than today?

the theories of IE are 4 major

1 the asian arid steppes
2 the North of Caucasos mountain
3 the south of caucasos mountain
4 the outer India (bactria?)

which is the NE Europe where Greeks come from?

Greeks either split from Vatin Serbia at 5,5 ky from today, as Thracians from Cotofeni
either moved from minor Asia 4,5 ky and are older than Hettits ( the strange case of Arzawa, Medea etc on who is older)

Vedun
27-07-14, 21:42
Hor has even Sanskrit meaning and means "hour". (as part of the Vedic micro time concepts which remained until today)

about Christianity

"Greek Χριστος the one who has the Chrisma, Arabs and Jewish Christians call it Messiah
what egypt has to do?"

Christianity came from Egypt and nowhere else on this planet. Period. I already wrote an article about the origins of the Abrahamic (opposite to Brahmanic) religion here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25663-Pharaoh-Tutankhamun-Akhenaten-and-Amenhotep-III-were-R1b/page3?highlight=Egypt

Regards to the word "Messiah"; it derives from Egyptian (Ek Kopt) word "MES" or "MESU" which means "son of...", an ancestry (in flesh). MESO (MEAT; "flesh"); Hence "RAMSS"simply means "RA IN MESO(MEAT/FLESH)"; TUT-MSS (TUT IN FLESH; "INCARNATED (TOT) ON EARTH" ("god on earth")...
Moses's (a title) was Aserseb (which transmuted into "Osarsiph" in Greek), "Osiris's ("father") - Seb. From SEB derives later occult Christian "JOSEPH", father of Christ (Egyptian (Coptic) Horus KRST).
http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/HORUS.htm

10 Commandments are simply a Synopsis which was taken from the Osirian Book of the Dead by the priesthood of Seth and Osiris , a transformation of the physical body into a non physical; the knowledge came from Vedic rishis over Sumer to Ethiopia and Egypt.(Moses was Osiris's and Seth's priest; there exists a Theological BELIEF (Nonsense) that "horns of Moses" represent something "metaphorically" or even is a "mistranslation in the Bible")

http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Temunot/Moses%20with%20horns%20-%20medieval%20333x267.jpg

...

Majority of Egyptian 'gods' weren't even native to Egypt... this includes the invention of "Aser" and "Heru", and their later cult of Osirian cult of Krst and much later invention of Christianity and Judaism which came to "life" after Akhenaton's revitalization of the "Moses's" Hykso (Hyksos were Akkadians and no any Jews (yet)) Monotheistic Mystery school of Egypt...

"what Slav mean?"

- unoficially Slav means "glory" and "word"; but the word itself derives from the term Sclavinia which was a transliteration of the Scolotoi (Sokoloti or Sokoli; "falcons"; "Scytian") and Vens or Veneti...(a mixture of 2 different Slavic tribes)-Skolo-Ven; later Sloven and from Sloven came common artificial word for all Slavs invented by one of the Czech "panslavists" in 19th century (so basically Slavs(as a word) did not exist until 19th century AD) as Slovan(occult use of "Sloven") or later Slav.

- Slav (officialy) means an (ideological) Slave to the created Matrix (Egregore) of Osiris/Jehovah or Allah and consequently to the Roman, Greek Christian Church. Slaves to Teutonic Christian Ordo, slaves to Arabs, Jews and to the "Vikings". This is also the purpose of "Goyim" or "Goy"; "gojiti" (to breed in Slavic) (almost all words in Torah itself are an artificial invention; look into the FORBIDDEN book by Joseph Yahuda: Hebrew is old Greek (mr. Joseph barelly survived (all books were literally destroyed or purchased), an Animal created for "reproduction" and food for Osiris's Astral realm... ). Osirian cult came over Egypt, India, Sumeria (Ashur) and finally came to Europe - with Christian, Judaical and Islamic (Abrahamic / inverted) cults... Every single Hindu knows what I am talking about; that Abrahamic religion worships Vedic ghosts, entities from Naraka, Nagaloka... That's why they called Sumerians and Abrahamic religion a Vedic "out-cast" (the origin of expelled "Abraham" in later Genesis; expelled Brahmanic dark priest of Kali Ma(african voodoo cult), Nagas, Asuras, Rakshasas and Ravanas (this is later Biblical "Rephaim" (Ravana; and later Christian "Raphael")... No, those aren't just 'stories' written in Vedas and Sumerian, Ugaritic, Akkadian and later Biblical "Genesis"...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mvMBAe7Ls4


Regards to your claims that Greeks came from the North, i have to oppose with a simple thought about the story from Iliad itself, written by Homer. He described Acheans are darker, curly haired Greeks when Danaans were rather describes as lighter skinned and haired people. This is proves that Greeks did not originate from 1 tribe only and were rather multi ethnic society. Those characteristics are known even today. They are very mixed population, just like Hindus... The Danaans probably originate from the areas around the river Don (Tanais); HyperBoreans (includes Slavs)...and brought the Y haplogroup R1a to Greece. That's why there exist also Slavic-Greek similarities which you've mentioned before...and Acheans came from Ethiopia (Africa); Black skinned people as was also Odysseus - "dark-skinned, curly-haired, and round-shouldered" greek...

Vedun
27-07-14, 22:35
"The theory that Slavs rather descend from some people that came from India on what evidences is supported?"

If you don't understand the Vedic Sanskrit and Vedic Faith - we both shared with Rishis, then this is your problem. Secondly, there was no word "Slav" described anywhere in Vedas, Bible,... before 19th century. Slavs were rather known as: Slovenes, Antes and Veneti by Jordanes, Bharatians or Boreans by Hindus (part of the Indian state) and as Magog (Mogol; "Mongol") according to Torah; the "enemy no. 1".

mihaitzateo
27-07-14, 22:57
Well I wonder,how come if Slavs came from India,why they did not kept the deities there,neither the folk customs,neither the writing system of Indians?
Yetos,I have no idea about the origins of the Greeks,I just supposed they came from a cooler place and a place where Winter solstice really makes the day smaller ,because Greeks gods are clearly linked to 4 seasons,so from what you said there,North Caucasus or South Caucasus could be the place.
Because India have monsoon climate ,nothing about monsoon in Greek mythology,I think.
No idea about what part of Asian arid steppes you are talking,but it seems like Central Asia,question is,if Greeks came from Central Asia ,how come they were best at sailing in antiquity?
Caucasus is very closed to sea .
Or you put those 4 theories as origins of the Slavs?

Vedun
27-07-14, 23:22
Because Slavs did not "come" from India, my point was that RISHIS came to India. This area was called SARASWATI (which was not the real person, just like Moses or Jesus were no real historical figures, but titles (this is my point). (from the term SARASWATI came SARAH, wife of ABRAHAM(A means "against" in Sanskrit) and ABRAHAM was simply a title for BRAHMAN or BRAHMA (A; an outcast from SARASWATI area, where the 1. Vedas appeared in the Oral and written form )...this is the whole point about the origin of later Abrahamic (Against Brahmanic) religion which originated in those centres: India, Sumeria, Egypt and finally in Rome and Constantinople...
And Saraswati was another "title" of the goddes ZORYA (Zorja) (SURYA) or DANICA (DAN= "DAY") or DANU ("TUATHA DE DANU") which was always portrayed in the shape of a WHITE SWAN. Now guess what ASURA means in Sanskrit, Aser(Osiris, lord of the Dead) in Egypt...

Yetos
28-07-14, 04:08
Hor has even Sanskrit meaning and means "hour". (as part of the Vedic micro time concepts which remained until today)

about Christianity

"Greek Χριστος the one who has the Chrisma, Arabs and Jewish Christians call it Messiah
what egypt has to do?"

Christianity came from Egypt and nowhere else on this planet. Period. I already wrote an article about the origins of the Abrahamic (opposite to Brahmanic) religion here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25663-Pharaoh-Tutankhamun-Akhenaten-and-Amenhotep-III-were-R1b/page3?highlight=Egypt

Regards to the word "Messiah"; it derives from Egyptian (Ek Kopt) word "MES" or "MESU" which means "son of...", an ancestry (in flesh). MESO (MEAT; "flesh"); Hence "RAMSS"simply means "RA IN MESO(MEAT/FLESH)"; TUT-MSS (TUT IN FLESH; "INCARNATED (TOT) ON EARTH" ("god on earth")...
Moses's (a title) was Aserseb (which transmuted into "Osarsiph" in Greek), "Osiris's ("father") - Seb. From SEB derives later occult Christian "JOSEPH", father of Christ (Egyptian (Coptic) Horus KRST).
http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/HORUS.htm

10 Commandments are simply a Synopsis which was taken from the Osirian Book of the Dead by the priesthood of Seth and Osiris , a transformation of the physical body into a non physical; the knowledge came from Vedic rishis over Sumer to Ethiopia and Egypt.(Moses was Osiris's and Seth's priest; there exists a Theological BELIEF (Nonsense) that "horns of Moses" represent something "metaphorically" or even is a "mistranslation in the Bible")

http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Temunot/Moses%20with%20horns%20-%20medieval%20333x267.jpg

...

Majority of Egyptian 'gods' weren't even native to Egypt... this includes the invention of "Aser" and "Heru", and their later cult of Osirian cult of Krst and much later invention of Christianity and Judaism which came to "life" after Akhenaton's revitalization of the "Moses's" Hykso (Hyksos were Akkadians and no any Jews (yet)) Monotheistic Mystery school of Egypt...

"what Slav mean?"

- unoficially Slav means "glory" and "word"; but the word itself derives from the term Sclavinia which was a transliteration of the Scolotoi (Sokoloti or Sokoli; "falcons"; "Scytian") and Vens or Veneti...(a mixture of 2 different Slavic tribes)-Skolo-Ven; later Sloven and from Sloven came common artificial word for all Slavs invented by one of the Czech "panslavists" in 19th century (so basically Slavs(as a word) did not exist until 19th century AD) as Slovan(occult use of "Sloven") or later Slav.

- Slav (officialy) means an (ideological) Slave to the created Matrix (Egregore) of Osiris/Jehovah or Allah and consequently to the Roman, Greek Christian Church. Slaves to Teutonic Christian Ordo, slaves to Arabs, Jews and to the "Vikings". This is also the purpose of "Goyim" or "Goy"; "gojiti" (to breed in Slavic) (almost all words in Torah itself are an artificial invention; look into the FORBIDDEN book by Joseph Yahuda: Hebrew is old Greek (mr. Joseph barelly survived (all books were literally destroyed or purchased), an Animal created for "reproduction" and food for Osiris's Astral realm... ). Osirian cult came over Egypt, India, Sumeria (Ashur) and finally came to Europe - with Christian, Judaical and Islamic (Abrahamic / inverted) cults... Every single Hindu knows what I am talking about; that Abrahamic religion worships Vedic ghosts, entities from Naraka, Nagaloka... That's why they called Sumerians and Abrahamic religion a Vedic "out-cast" (the origin of expelled "Abraham" in later Genesis; expelled Brahmanic dark priest of Kali Ma(african voodoo cult), Nagas, Asuras, Rakshasas and Ravanas (this is later Biblical "Rephaim" (Ravana; and later Christian "Raphael")... No, those aren't just 'stories' written in Vedas and Sumerian, Ugaritic, Akkadian and later Biblical "Genesis"...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mvMBAe7Ls4


Regards to your claims that Greeks came from the North, i have to oppose with a simple thought about the story from Iliad itself, written by Homer. He described Acheans are darker, curly haired Greeks when Danaans were rather describes as lighter skinned and haired people. This is proves that Greeks did not originate from 1 tribe only and were rather multi ethnic society. Those characteristics are known even today. They are very mixed population, just like Hindus... The Danaans probably originate from the areas around the river Don (Tanais); HyperBoreans (includes Slavs)...and brought the Y haplogroup R1a to Greece. That's why there exist also Slavic-Greek similarities which you've mentioned before...and Acheans came from Ethiopia (Africa); Black skinned people as was also Odysseus - "dark-skinned, curly-haired, and round-shouldered" greek...

what?

Greeks are a mix, but not the ones you mention.
they are a mix of Pelasgians, Etruscans if you like, with IE,
the dark is mention also in Etruscans.

AND ABOUT SLAV, SEARCH NAMES LIKE BORISLAV WITH GREEK ΑΓΗΣΙΛΑΟΣ, ΜΕΝΕΛΑΟΣ before you make conclusions
the ending -slav in names is same as Greek -λαος laos and means people, it has the same meaning as Teuton with teuta
both Slav and λαος have their roots in Summerian -Lu which has nothing to do with IE -Liue Greek υει meaning rain/precipitation
the only alternative I can accept is the Freedom since Slavs were outside Roman empire, and came as limbertadores to Balkans

about Hor you say hour in sanshqrit why not Ωρα of Greek?
I think we mixed a lot saying and proving nothing.

EGYPT WAS INHABITED BY IE AND OTHERS, I wrote about some clearly Balkanic customs we see that pass to Egyptian royal families,

Dorians is not -o- but ω meaning Durians and means Endured, Hardened, has nothing to do with river don, their language even today is Γρουσσα Groussa.

Besides I never said that Greeks came from North,

I said that even today we can clarify for certain if came from Vatin Serbia at Arsenic bronze road 3500 BC or from Anatolia 2500 BC.

BEsides the Egyptian word for son is -SE not -MESO Ramses = Ra -se = son of Ra, Touthmosis = Tout SE = TOUT son

told you again word Christ has a meaning only in Greek.

besides hor and Hour, hm search Μοιραι τε και Ωραι,
as you σεε all Hor you gave
Hor as dance χορος Κουρητες
Hor as Deity Χαρος
Ηor as Hour Ωραι

Slav does not mean Slave, when Slavs were Slaves and to whom?
it means people-crowd-nation
synonym of teuta To teutons

arvistro
21-08-14, 14:53
Actually in early XX century there were a lot of mythologized speculations around Balts coming from India. Some said that any Lithuanian peasant would be able to speak and understand sanscrit. This is false of course.
Some extra things that led more fire to it was our Latvian folk songs where we actually have a word "bramanis" -
Sajāja bramaņi augstajā kalnā,= bramans rode to the high montain

Sakāra zobenus Svētajā kokā.= lifted their swords in the holy tree

Svētajam kokam deviņi zari, = holy tree had 9 branches

Ik zara galā, deviņi ziedi, = at the end of each branch there were 9 flowers

Ik zieda galā deviņas ogas. = at the end of each flower there were 9 berries

Atskrēja bitīte, paņēma vienu, = arrived the little bee and took one of them

Aiznesa mīļ Māras šūpulē. = brought it to sweet Mara's cradle.
(sample of this song is used in Enigma "Beyond the Invisible").


I am not sure about the last two verses, as they might be added later. Or the last two verses make perfect sense if that song was New Year one, the bee took the previous year and brought it to Māra (Latvian Mother Earth, could be initial name was changed to Māra during Christianity). Previous verses seem related to Tree of Life, known concept for Germans, Slavs, Finns. 9*9*9 = 729 which is 365 days and nights. A year. Not sure though if that is modern interpretation or true ancient one. trejdeviņi (threenines) is a word common for our tales; most Latvian tales happened "aiz trejdeviņām jūrām" - over thee-nine seas.

We have a lot of place words based on bramanis. Modern Latvian "bramanis" meaning in English is loudmouth/blusterer.

Vedun
26-08-14, 13:15
"Actually in early XX century there were a lot of mythologized speculations around Balts coming from India."

It was everything vice versa...

"Sajāja bramaņi augstajā kalnā,= bramans rode to the high montain

Sakāra zobenus Svētajā kokā.= lifted their swords in the holy tree

Svētajam kokam deviņi zari, = holy tree had 9 branches

Ik zara galā, deviņi ziedi, = at the end of each branch there were 9 flowers

Ik zieda galā deviņas ogas. = at the end of each flower there were 9 berries

Atskrēja bitīte, paņēma vienu, = arrived the little bee and took one of them

Aiznesa mīļ Māras šūpulē. = brought it to sweet Mara's cradle.
(sample of this song is used in Enigma "Beyond the Invisible")."

Totally correct. Note, that this Calendar have had 1 week with 9 (Divine; Devet; "Deus"(Bog; God) days(and not 7(which arrived later with Christianity (via Babylonia); 7 has the meaning for the world of Nagaloka or Patala(=post/po/pa/pec-Tala (Tla; Ground; grindys; stavs(Underworld(also the Land of Rusalkas(which were "half human, half fish"(just like Nagas in Vedas; half human, half snake); ca 27 days Sidereal Lunar days per 1 Month(Moon); 9+9+9 (=1 Nakshatra).days. Each Nakshatra (trejdeviņi) have had its own Ruler (God (Bog) which was governed as 'lord' by one of the nine graha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navagraha)(9 planets) in the following (Vedic & Roman) sequence: Ketu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketu_%28mythology%29) (South Lunar Node), Shukra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shukra) (Venus), Ravi or Surya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surya) (Sun), Chandra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandra) (Moon), Mangala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangala) (Mars), Rahu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahu) (North Lunar Node), Guru or Brihaspati (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brihaspati) (Jupiter), Shani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shani) (Saturn) and Budha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budha) (Mercury); 4th day was Perun's day(Kresnik, Thor, this is Perkunas perhaps known among you..the Thur-sday.
1 Week = Teden / Nedelja / Nedela ("not working"(Not part (del) of it) / nedēļa... HuMan (Manu) / cilvēks / Človek; Čelo (Piere; Kakta (Chelo; Kelo; Sanskrit "Kala"; Amžius; Ages; AGE)- Forhead(this is the "3rd eye" of Shiva, above the Nose (and the so called "All seeing eye" in Egypt which was used in later occultism, which was brought into Christianity, Judaism by dark Cabbalist (Babylonian) priesthood to Byzantium)) + Vek("era") (=Amžius; "Woche" (Week); "Era" (Age-s); Vek; Vijek; Vyuga; Yuga... has cca 100 Solar (natural) years lifespan on this Planet...
Brahma has a lifespan of 100 years; which is equal to 313 trillion human years (Param or Paraa).
50 human years was transformed into the "Abrahamic" (Biblical perversion of the purest Lithuanian(=Litva, Latvia,Latin, Lady, Lads, Lada,...) (original Vedic) word BRAHMA(=Universe itself) as the sacred number (half of a Brahma, this is 155.52Trillion years; which is the era, when Brahma's 50 years passed (already happened); this is current time (One Day of Brahma has 8, 64 Billion years which is equal to 1 Kalpa (=Kapla "drop"(of "sweat" from Svetovid's (=Shiva's) forehead (Čelo) in Slovene)...

"Za devetimi gorami, za devetimi vodami je deveta dežela" ("after 9 mountains, after 9 rivers is a 9th land")... "Tam stoji zlata jablana" (there stands a golden Apple tree (this is the concept of the "Avalon"(Abalon; Apple,...), nearby the Fountain, which is protected by the white snakes. It grows on the Svetovna gora (World's mountain (=Meru) where stands a Cristal castle of lad Kresnik (=Perun; "Thor").

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OcI9Raf0MJI/TFRP9helQWI/AAAAAAAANCM/orGvNeeaPOQ/s400/Norse_Nine_Worlds.jpg

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs25/i/2010/029/4/5/Avalon_by_Iribel.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_OcI9Raf0MJI/TFbzLQiO3fI/AAAAAAAAN-s/VmKYPMESalk/s400/2358499460_8576e90b2c_o.png
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_OcI9Raf0MJI/TGBmIt3mDDI/AAAAAAAAOWY/96d_N6n1u3I/s400/Labirinto_do_Outeiro_do_Cribo.JPG


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-p13q202wCjE/US314HwuNpI/AAAAAAAA3a8/VsE8pIqEIaE/s1600/036.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_OcI9Raf0MJI/TFZeEiM5xaI/AAAAAAAAN7E/ibtnoz7MXoc/s400/2704390492_afd347bf4a.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OcI9Raf0MJI/TFZgGEpB6NI/AAAAAAAAN70/ZIXJkBm_O_o/s400/axis2.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2569175/Now-thats-vintage-Worlds-oldest-cheese-discovered-chests-3-500-year-old-Chinese-MUMMIES.html





http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9PgZzbjB5w/UFcL7yPbBNI/AAAAAAAAbTo/0Vyk8PzBMGw/s320/614px-Milky_Way_Arms.svg.png

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_OcI9Raf0MJI/TFcIldlEy8I/AAAAAAAAN_s/Bd6UDszt4pY/s400/energy1.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OcI9Raf0MJI/TGiyo11wg1I/AAAAAAAAPaA/JTijVcQJMWM/s400/800px-Plasmasphere.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQRj_EYqIm5MdeTRrIybOqeP_tJhSiDH uNi_JyJPKULCZ3VOMp-6w
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OcI9Raf0MJI/TFcXrz7tU1I/AAAAAAAAOB0/2NbxW00eYuo/s400/The_My3.jpg

Vedun
26-08-14, 13:38
Finnic (Venic) Väinämöinen as Vedic Vaivasvata - Manu (huMan)...

http://books.google.si/books?id=pa7KAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA202&lpg=PA202&dq=V%C3%A4in%C3%A4m%C3%B6inen+Vaivasvata&source=bl&ots=CZkLIu1pko&sig=__kpNgDigXQues4dOzsFXU1mCc8&hl=sl&sa=X&ei=p2_8U9y7DKq_ygOm24HwBQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=V%C3%A4in%C3%A4m%C3%B6inen%20Vaivasvata&f=false

http://www.churchgoers.com/blog/beyond-noah-great-flood-myths-around-world/

6536

1 one day of Brahma is divided into 14 periods. 6 such periods are over. We are now in the 7th. Each period is named after the One Ruler who is appointed to rule the entire earthly world during that period. The generic name for such a ruler is the Manu. The period is called a Manvantara.

The name of the present Manu is Vaivasvata, the son of the Sun-God...

Manvantara or Manuvantara, or age of a Manu , the (Vedic) progenitor of mankind, is an astronomical period of time measurement. Manvantara literally meaning the duration of a Manu, or his life span.

vandalorum
21-12-14, 01:25
The problem is: is sanskrit the language of Aryans or is a language of local people who wrote all this history? And Aryans are quite other people? And maybe this unwanted sons of Aryans went once to Europe? I live in Poland and I am watching every summer how tan Poles. Most of them brown-red (indo-iranian), some goldish (as Scandinavians do), I personally am not able to get tan, I have red-white skin colour like some people in British Isles or generally north-west Europe.