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Vinnie
24-07-14, 09:45
Which ancient tribes or people spoke a different language but absorbed Indo-European language and became an IE people of history? I think this might have happened in Anatolia. The Hittites for instance were not a single people but rather a collaboration of different tribes, if I am correct. Maybe certain had Pre IE semitic roots as J1 seems to reach about 10% in Turkey (could be Mesopotamian, at least from Iraq)

bicicleur
24-07-14, 11:49
The Hittites were Anatolian language IE
They entered Anatolia with other Anatolina speaking tribes, Luwian, Lycian, Lydian, Carian
The Hittites overtook the land of the Hatti, who were not IE.

The southern Slavs were I2a1, they must have absorbed the language of the eastern and western Slavs , R1a - M458
Other I2a1 tribes mixed with other IE tribes (Scyth, Cimmerians, Alans, Thracians, .. )
I2a1 was probably also part of Cucuteni-Tripolye

I1 mixed with R1a - Z284 , R1b - S21/U106 and I2a2a to form the Germanic group

I2a2b was absorbed by the Celtic R1b - P312

It seems haplo I thrived better under IE than under Early European Farmers

Alan
27-07-14, 11:17
Which ancient tribes or people spoke a different language but absorbed Indo-European language and became an IE people of history? I think this might have happened in Anatolia. The Hittites for instance were not a single people but rather a collaboration of different tribes, if I am correct. Maybe certain had Pre IE semitic roots as J1 seems to reach about 10% in Turkey (could be Mesopotamian, at least from Iraq)


J1* is not Semitic. If anything it reached the Semites when herders from Lake Van expanded.

Vinnie
27-07-14, 20:46
J1* is not Semitic. If anything it reached the Semites when herders from Lake Van expanded.

OK. But there were Semitic people in certain parts of Anatolia before IE people from what I understand. Maybe they also carried some, before the herder migrated from West Asia/ Anatolia to Firtile Crescent mixing with Semitics.

John Doe
27-07-14, 21:06
OK. But there were Semitic people in certain parts of Anatolia before IE people from what I understand. Maybe they also carried some, before the herder migrated from West Asia/ Anatolia to Firtile Crescent mixing with Semitics.
The fertile Crescent is part of west Asia.

Vinnie
27-07-14, 22:18
The fertile Crescent is part of west Asia.

Allright so Anatolia we're talking about. I'm pretty sure not all of the J1 there is indigenous, some might have travelled and mixed with proto-semitics and then came back.

Alan
28-07-14, 00:37
OK. But there were Semitic people in certain parts of Anatolia before IE people from what I understand. Maybe they also carried some, before the herder migrated from West Asia/ Anatolia to Firtile Crescent mixing with Semitics.

I doubt that most of J1* in Anatolia has anything to do with Semites. I suspect that those Semites have spread some E1b with them to Anatolia.

The fertile crescent is a huge landmass. J1 must have spred from Lake Van to Mesopotamia and from there to Southern Levant (J1c3d) where it crossed with Afro-Asiatic (E1b1b) speakers and gave birth to the first Semites(J1c3d , E1b1b).

Yetos
28-07-14, 03:47
I doubt that most of J1* in Anatolia has anything to do with Semites. I suspect that those Semites have spread some E1b with them to Anatolia.

The fertile crescent is a huge landmass. J1 must have spred from Lake Van to Mesopotamia and from there to Southern Levant (J1c3d) where it crossed with Afro-Asiatic (E1b1b) speakers and gave birth to the first Semites(J1c3d , E1b1b).

J1 is not semitic in the begining, but went south and got semitized, today some J1 are considered as semitic

Vinnie
28-07-14, 05:26
This is what I actually mean ^^

bicicleur
28-07-14, 10:17
J1 is not semitic in the begining, but went south and got semitized, today some J1 are considered as semitic

some 5600 years ago, Semitic E-M123 invaded the Levant from Egypt (which was not unified yet), they were nomadic shepherds
they were ancestral to the Akkadians and the Amorites

J1-P58 were shepherds in the Southern Levant, they took over the Semitic language
they were ancestral to the Arabs
some 4300 years ago some of them moved south to western Jemen

John Doe
28-07-14, 10:27
some 5600 years ago, Semitic E-M123 invaded the Levant from Egypt (which was not unified yet), they were nomadic shepherds
they were ancestral to the Akkadians and the Amorites

J1-P58 were shepherds in the Southern Levant, they took over the Semitic language
they were ancestral to the Arabs
some 4300 years ago some of them moved south to western Jemen

Interesting, and I reckon Jemen means Yemen?

Maleth
28-07-14, 13:00
Thank you for this explanation. If you don't mind I have these questions:-


some 5600 years ago, Semitic E-M123 invaded the Levant from Egypt (which was not unified yet), they were nomadic shepherds they were ancestral to the Akkadians and the Amorites

in other words Akkadians and Amorites are descendants of Semetic (E-M123) Peoples that immigrated from Egypt? Where there other peoples living in the area when they did so?


arrived from J1-P58 were shepherds in the Southern Levant, they took over the Semitic language
they were ancestral to the Arabs some 4300 years ago some of them moved south to western Jemen

*)What language did the J1-P58 communicate with? Wasn't it Semitic too?
*)If the E-M123 brought in the Semitic language to the area, and J1 absorbed it, why is it that today that J1 is the absolute dominant HG in the area (Middle east) in relation to E-M123?

bicicleur
28-07-14, 14:06
Interesting, and I reckon Jemen means Yemen?

Yes I guess so, Jemen in Dutch or German, but Yemen in English

bicicleur
28-07-14, 14:31
Thank you for this explanation. If you don't mind I have these questions:-



in other words Akkadians and Amorites are descendants of Semetic (E-M123) Peoples that immigrated from Egypt? Where there other peoples living in the area when they did so?



*)What language did the J1-P58 communicate with? Wasn't it Semitic too?
*)If the E-M123 brought in the Semitic language to the area, and J1 absorbed it, why is it that today that J1 is the absolute dominant HG in the area (Middle east) in relation to E-M123?

see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Semitic_language : out of Africa hypothesis

I believe the Semitic invasion finally caused the collapse of the Uruk expansion

E-M123 was in Akkadians and Amorites , and I guess later in Assyrians as well
And they were exported via the Phoenicians
But that is where their story ends

When they entered the Levant I guess there were J2 farmers and J1-P58 shepherds.

There were some J2 copperminers, traders and crafstsmen too : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassulian_culture and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timna_Valley
These fared well under the Uruk expansion

I believe some of the J2 traders and crafstsmen fled for the E-M123 Semities, they where the Minoans, arriving in Crete 5600 years ago ; Minoans were J2.

J1-P58 expanded toward Yemen 4300 years ago.
From there they conquered Arabia and Ethiopia.
Their last expansion was the expansion of Islam through the Middle East and North Africa.

The language J1 and J2 spoke befor is unknown
J2 spoke maybe something similar like the Minoans, but also about their language, not much is known , their script has never been deciphered

Alan
28-07-14, 19:09
*)What language did the J1-P58 communicate with? Wasn't it Semitic too?

unknown, cause back than none of the modern language families had yet formed. I assume it is connected to ANE ancestry.
I even assume that this ANE ancestry in Semites was brought there by J*(especially J1-P58 among Semites) haplogroups.


*)If the E-M123 brought in the Semitic language to the area, and J1 absorbed it, why is it that today that J1 is the absolute dominant HG in the area (Middle east) in relation to E-M123?

founder effect, and it's a bit more complicated.

The Haplogroup what connects Afro_Asiatic speakers, is E1b1b*. Semites didn't exist until some Afro_Asiatic speakers reached southern Levant and mixed with the local herders(J1-P58). This gave birth to the first Semites who belonged to J1c3d and E1b1b*(Amorites, Akkadians etc). From there they expanded into all directions. The reason why the Arabian Peninsula is more dominated by J1c3d is because of bottleneck effect.

This gets obvious if you take a look at Semite population from levant (who come closer to the originale homeland) the frequency between J1-P58 and E1b1b* gets more equal. Just two examples Jordan J1-P58 (31%) E1b1b*(26%) and Lebanon J1-P58(20%) E1b1b*(17,5%). Some other Levantines were effected by a second wave of of Semites from the Arabian Peninsula (Islamic Expansion) and brought knew more of J1-P58 with them. This changed the demographics slightly.

Allot of J1* in Mesopotamia must also be pre Semite. I assume that Akkadians(later Assyrians, Babylonians), who brought Sumer to collapse and conquered Hurrian land, brought allot of E1b1b* with them.

Alan
28-07-14, 19:19
see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Semitic_language : out of Africa hypothesis

I believe the Semitic invasion finally caused the collapse of the Uruk expansion

E-M123 was in Akkadians and Amorites , and I guess later in Assyrians as well
And they were exported via the Phoenicians
But that is where their story ends

When they entered the Levant I guess there were J2 farmers and J1-P58 shepherds.



I doubt that the original J2 people were farmers. Not much indiciates that. I assume J2 was just like J1 shepherds from the area between the Zagros and Taurus/Ararat mountain.

The real farmers were pre Semite E-V13 and G2a* people.

Yetos
28-07-14, 20:58
unknown, cause back than none of the modern language families had yet formed. I assume it is connected to ANE ancestry.
I even assume that this ANE ancestry in Semites was brought there by J*(especially J1-P58 among Semites) haplogroups.



founder effect, and it's a bit more complicated.

The Haplogroup what connects Afro_Asiatic speakers, is E1b1b*. Semites didn't exist until some Afro_Asiatic speakers reached southern Levant and mixed with the local herders(J1-P58). This gave birth to the first Semites who belonged to J1c3d and E1b1b*(Amorites, Akkadians etc). From there they expanded into all directions. The reason why the Arabian Peninsula is more dominated by J1c3d is because of bottleneck effect.

This gets obvious if you take a look at Semite population from levant (who come closer to the originale homeland) the frequency between J1-P58 and E1b1b* gets more equal. Just two examples Jordan J1-P58 (31%) E1b1b*(26%) and Lebanon J1-P58(20%) E1b1b*(17,5%). Some other Levantines were effected by a second wave of of Semites from the Arabian Peninsula (Islamic Expansion) and brought knew more of J1-P58 with them. This changed the demographics slightly.

Allot of J1* in Mesopotamia must also be pre Semite. I assume that Akkadians(later Assyrians, Babylonians), who brought Sumer to collapse and conquered Hurrian land, brought allot of E1b1b* with them.

particullary I agree ,
Hg E enter middle east before 4 ky and after 5,5 ky +-500 (para and mesopotamia)
but was in Near east at about 6 ky (from Sina to Levant and Jordania)

Maleth
28-07-14, 22:16
Many thanks all for the easy to follow answers. It makes things more clear.

Maleth
28-07-14, 22:37
Is it correct to assume, that since J's Haplogroup that was already in the area and absorbed the new comers (E-M123) language, it must have been a more superior culture, or stronger army? (if they conquered by war that is) This invasion/immigration was a few hundred years prior to the unification of Classical Egypt with the building of the great pyramids and temples if not mistaken.

Alan
28-07-14, 22:46
particullary I agree ,
Hg E enter middle east before 4 ky and after 5,5 ky +-500 (para and mesopotamia)
but was in Near east at about 6 ky (from Sina to Levant and Jordania)

E* as a whole is allot older in Western Asia than the Semite family, thats true. It is a farmer Haplogroup and was spred to North Africa with farmers. But than when Afro_Asiatic speakers evolved allot of the E-m123 subclade was spred back to Western Asia by the Semites. E-V13 for example has not much to do with Semites.

Alan
28-07-14, 22:52
Is it correct to assume, that since J's Haplogroup that was already in the area and absorbed the new comers (E-M123) language, it must have been a more superior culture, or stronger army? (if they conquered by war that is) This invasion/immigration was a few hundred years prior to the unification of Classical Egypt with the building of the great pyramids and temples if not mistaken.

Egyptians were not Semites, but they are the closest you get to Semites outside the Semite group. Berbers, ancient Egyptians, Semites and ancient Cushites belong to the Afro_Asiatic family. The Afro-Asiatic family formed somewhere Northeast Africa with neolithic farmers from the Middle East (who spred E1b1b* with them) reached North Africa.

Maleth
28-07-14, 23:00
E* as a whole is allot older in Western Asia than the Semite family, thats true. It is a farmer Haplogroup and was spred to North Africa with farmers. But than when Afro_Asiatic speakers evolved allot of the E-m123 subclade was spred back to Western Asia by the Semites. E-V13 for example has not much to do with Semites.

This is interesting, however if E-V13 stems from E78 in north east Africa, it must have also carried a semetic language (as the Berber mutation that moved the other way) However I presume that if we do not know what language the J's spoke it will difficult to confirm what the E-V13 spoke at the time of entry in the middle east. It would be more complicated if the theory of island hoping occurred to the south of Europe. E-V13 language (whatever it was) must have been lost and took over other languages in the areas.

bicicleur
29-07-14, 13:54
Egyptians were not Semites, but they are the closest you get to Semites outside the Semite group. Berbers, ancient Egyptians, Semites and ancient Cushites belong to the Afro_Asiatic family. The Afro-Asiatic family formed somewhere Northeast Africa with neolithic farmers from the Middle East (who spred E1b1b* with them) reached North Africa.

hard to tell what Egyptians were
Egypt was united 5100 year ago
maybe E-M123 was ousted by the Egyptians

E was allready in Africa , speaking Afro-Asiatic languages
R1b-V88 and T entered Africa with catlle
later Asian farmers entered ( i think J2 - you think G2a or J1 ?)
all this prior to the unification of Egypt

Egyptians must have been a mix
what language spoke the earliest Egyptians?

Yetos
29-07-14, 21:31
E* as a whole is allot older in Western Asia than the Semite family, thats true. It is a farmer Haplogroup and was spred to North Africa with farmers. But than when Afro_Asiatic speakers evolved allot of the E-m123 subclade was spred back to Western Asia by the Semites. E-V13 for example has not much to do with Semites.

my believe is that E was not even in Levant when Summerian where at its peak,
have you heard a scientific report claim that was? or assumptions that most share?

Yetos
29-07-14, 21:36
Egyptians were not Semites, but they are the closest you get to Semites outside the Semite group. Berbers, ancient Egyptians, Semites and ancient Cushites belong to the Afro_Asiatic family. The Afro-Asiatic family formed somewhere Northeast Africa with neolithic farmers from the Middle East (who spred E1b1b* with them) reached North Africa.

the existance of R1b in Egypt shows enough, also some balkanic customs that imported to Egypt,
I know about some berber tribes, in Riffians you can find even R1a (another story)
so you suggest that was present in Sumerrians and went back to Africa and again return to Asia?

if so then we go back, in that case is the strange theory that both Semitic and IE are kaukasian languages, an hypothesis which has quite enough supporters and J was the original speaker, while E could spoke some East African language like Shuahilli?

LeBrok
29-07-14, 23:36
my believe is that E was not even in Levant when Summerian where at its peak,
have you heard a scientific report claim that was? or assumptions that most share?
It would mean that E entered Europe later than 2,000 BCE. How do you explain so even and deep penetration of Europe by E clades?
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

In contrast J1 had a late entry. Much later than hg E. The concentration is very spotty.
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

This simple logic of coverage is based on speculation that paternal haplogroups are being fairly equal in competition. However there is some statistical evidence that some haplogroups are more fertile than others. In this regard I might be wrong in my supposition.

Alan
30-07-14, 01:57
hard to tell what Egyptians were
Egypt was united 5100 year ago
maybe E-M123 was ousted by the Egyptians

E was allready in Africa , speaking Afro-Asiatic languages
R1b-V88 and T entered Africa with catlle
later Asian farmers entered ( i think J2 - you think G2a or J1 ?)
all this prior to the unification of Egypt

Egyptians must have been a mix
what language spoke the earliest Egyptians?

No I believe that some specific subclades of E*(especially the E1b1b group) is the result of back migration from Western Asia. I believe G2a and E1b are the first farmers while J1 and J2 are herders(both agriculture techniques).

earliest Egyptians spoke the Egyptian language which was part of the Afro-Asiatic familly and closest to Semitic.

Alan
30-07-14, 01:59
the existance of R1b in Egypt shows enough, also some balkanic customs that imported to Egypt,
I know about some berber tribes, in Riffians you can find even R1a (another story)
so you suggest that was present in Sumerrians and went back to Africa and again return to Asia?

if so then we go back, in that case is the strange theory that both Semitic and IE are kaukasian languages, an hypothesis which has quite enough supporters and J was the original speaker, while E could spoke some East African language like Shuahilli?

No I never said R1a backmigrated to Western Asia.

Good that you mentioned R1b. The thing is some of R1b was probably part of the farmer expansion (see Bell Beakers).

R1a in North Africa is definitely from the anciant Alans.

I believe that most of J2/J1 was a second wave of migration from Western Asia into North Africa. Probably arriving with herders. When Egypt rised the population was predominantly E1b1b* and R1b-V88?(farmers) with allot of J2,J1(herders).

John Doe
30-07-14, 07:20
No I never said R1a backmigrated to Western Asia.

Good that you mentioned R1b. The thing is some of R1b was probably part of the farmer expansion (see Bell Beakers).

R1a in North Africa is definitely from the anciant Alans.

I believe that most of J2/J1 was a second wave of migration from Western Asia into North Africa. Probably arriving with herders. When Egypt rised the population was predominantly E1b1b* and R1b-V88?(farmers) with allot of J2,J1(herders).

What does E-M35.1 represent? And is it possible I belong to a more specific branch? I only tested with 23andme and they don't do deep subclade tests, I'm planning to test with FTDNA who do that kind of testing.

Maleth
30-07-14, 10:27
It would mean that E entered Europe later than 2,000 BCE. How do you explain so even and deep penetration of Europe by E clades?

What about the Natufians? Early Natufian (12,500–10,800 BC) and Late Natufian (10,800–9500 BC). I came across this article. Anyone knows how reliable this is? or again its just an assumption.

(quote)Interestingly, their genetic legacy in the near East seems to be a male contribution (v13), but no L Mt Lineages came out of Africa to accompany it.(end quote)

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/03/09/the-natufians/

Wasn't the oldest e-v13 found in Iberia with G2a 7000 years old?

Any thoughts about this?

Maleth
30-07-14, 10:51
What does E-M35.1 represent? And is it possible I belong to a more specific branch? I only tested with 23andme and they don't do deep subclade tests, I'm planning to test with FTDNA who do that kind of testing.

John you could belong to any of these. Only by testing you can find out.

Y-DNA Haplogroup E-M35 and its subclades
E1b1b1 M35+
E1b1b1* = M35+*
E1b1b1a = M78+
E1b1b1a = M78+* Vneg
E1b1b1a1 = M78+V12+
E1b1b1a2 = M78+V13+ (common in South Balkans)
E1b1b1a3 = M78+V22+
E1b1b1a4 = M78+V65+
E1b1b1b = M81+M183+ (common with Berbers)
E1b1b1c* = M123+*
E1b1b1c1 = M123+M34+
E1b1b1
E1b1b1a
E1b1b1b
E1b1b1c1

Only with a deep clade test you can find out. I am not too sure which is the most common subclade amoungst AJ (that has been discussed a great deal on this forum I think). Chances are you belong to it. However if not mistaken there are a number of different haplogroups within Jewish communities. Testing could keep your story in motion.

John Doe
30-07-14, 11:59
John you could belong to any of these. Only by testing you can find out.

Y-DNA Haplogroup E-M35 and its subclades
E1b1b1 M35+
E1b1b1* = M35+*
E1b1b1a = M78+
E1b1b1a = M78+* Vneg
E1b1b1a1 = M78+V12+
E1b1b1a2 = M78+V13+ (common in South Balkans)
E1b1b1a3 = M78+V22+
E1b1b1a4 = M78+V65+
E1b1b1b = M81+M183+ (common with Berbers)
E1b1b1c* = M123+*
E1b1b1c1 = M123+M34+
E1b1b1
E1b1b1a
E1b1b1b
E1b1b1c1

Only with a deep clade test you can find out. I am not too sure which is the most common subclade amoungst AJ (that has been discussed a great deal on this forum I think). Chances are you belong to it. However if not mistaken there are a number of different haplogroups within Jewish communities. Testing could keep your story in motion.


Alright thanks.

LeBrok
30-07-14, 16:56
What about the Natufians? Early Natufian (12,500–10,800 BC) and Late Natufian (10,800–9500 BC). I came across this article. Anyone knows how reliable this is? or again its just an assumption.

(quote)Interestingly, their genetic legacy in the near East seems to be a male contribution (v13), but no L Mt Lineages came out of Africa to accompany it.(end quote)

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/03/09/the-natufians/

Wasn't the oldest e-v13 found in Iberia with G2a 7000 years old?

Any thoughts about this?
IIRC I was reading Jewish archaeologists article stating that very early Natufians (17,000 BC) already harvesting variety of wild grasses. I fantasized that they were Hg E, and possibly entered Europe right after Ice Age. Not full farmers yet, but only "Harvesters" with most of diet coming from wild wheat. The intermittent stage on the way to become farmers.
Having said that I never heard about their DNA being sequenced. If they are V13 then I will be ecstatic!

Next wave, the fully fledged farmers were mostly G2a, most likely mixture of E and G from Near East.

Maleth
30-07-14, 18:36
I never heard about their DNA being sequenced. If they are V13 then I will be ecstatic!

My same thoughts. Probably the V13 mutation would have not occurred yet. Its just when you read comments like that on the provided blog link, makes you wonder how they come to those conclusions. Probably there must be some kind of study, since skeletons were found all over the area, but not easy to get hold of any (detailed) information.