Indo-Europianisation

Vinnie

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Which ancient tribes or people spoke a different language but absorbed Indo-European language and became an IE people of history? I think this might have happened in Anatolia. The Hittites for instance were not a single people but rather a collaboration of different tribes, if I am correct. Maybe certain had Pre IE semitic roots as J1 seems to reach about 10% in Turkey (could be Mesopotamian, at least from Iraq)
 
The Hittites were Anatolian language IE
They entered Anatolia with other Anatolina speaking tribes, Luwian, Lycian, Lydian, Carian
The Hittites overtook the land of the Hatti, who were not IE.

The southern Slavs were I2a1, they must have absorbed the language of the eastern and western Slavs , R1a - M458
Other I2a1 tribes mixed with other IE tribes (Scyth, Cimmerians, Alans, Thracians, .. )
I2a1 was probably also part of Cucuteni-Tripolye

I1 mixed with R1a - Z284 , R1b - S21/U106 and I2a2a to form the Germanic group

I2a2b was absorbed by the Celtic R1b - P312

It seems haplo I thrived better under IE than under Early European Farmers
 
Which ancient tribes or people spoke a different language but absorbed Indo-European language and became an IE people of history? I think this might have happened in Anatolia. The Hittites for instance were not a single people but rather a collaboration of different tribes, if I am correct. Maybe certain had Pre IE semitic roots as J1 seems to reach about 10% in Turkey (could be Mesopotamian, at least from Iraq)


J1* is not Semitic. If anything it reached the Semites when herders from Lake Van expanded.
 
J1* is not Semitic. If anything it reached the Semites when herders from Lake Van expanded.

OK. But there were Semitic people in certain parts of Anatolia before IE people from what I understand. Maybe they also carried some, before the herder migrated from West Asia/ Anatolia to Firtile Crescent mixing with Semitics.
 
OK. But there were Semitic people in certain parts of Anatolia before IE people from what I understand. Maybe they also carried some, before the herder migrated from West Asia/ Anatolia to Firtile Crescent mixing with Semitics.
The fertile Crescent is part of west Asia.
 
The fertile Crescent is part of west Asia.

Allright so Anatolia we're talking about. I'm pretty sure not all of the J1 there is indigenous, some might have travelled and mixed with proto-semitics and then came back.
 
OK. But there were Semitic people in certain parts of Anatolia before IE people from what I understand. Maybe they also carried some, before the herder migrated from West Asia/ Anatolia to Firtile Crescent mixing with Semitics.

I doubt that most of J1* in Anatolia has anything to do with Semites. I suspect that those Semites have spread some E1b with them to Anatolia.

The fertile crescent is a huge landmass. J1 must have spred from Lake Van to Mesopotamia and from there to Southern Levant (J1c3d) where it crossed with Afro-Asiatic (E1b1b) speakers and gave birth to the first Semites(J1c3d , E1b1b).
 
I doubt that most of J1* in Anatolia has anything to do with Semites. I suspect that those Semites have spread some E1b with them to Anatolia.

The fertile crescent is a huge landmass. J1 must have spred from Lake Van to Mesopotamia and from there to Southern Levant (J1c3d) where it crossed with Afro-Asiatic (E1b1b) speakers and gave birth to the first Semites(J1c3d , E1b1b).

J1 is not semitic in the begining, but went south and got semitized, today some J1 are considered as semitic
 
J1 is not semitic in the begining, but went south and got semitized, today some J1 are considered as semitic

some 5600 years ago, Semitic E-M123 invaded the Levant from Egypt (which was not unified yet), they were nomadic shepherds
they were ancestral to the Akkadians and the Amorites

J1-P58 were shepherds in the Southern Levant, they took over the Semitic language
they were ancestral to the Arabs
some 4300 years ago some of them moved south to western Jemen
 
some 5600 years ago, Semitic E-M123 invaded the Levant from Egypt (which was not unified yet), they were nomadic shepherds
they were ancestral to the Akkadians and the Amorites

J1-P58 were shepherds in the Southern Levant, they took over the Semitic language
they were ancestral to the Arabs
some 4300 years ago some of them moved south to western Jemen

Interesting, and I reckon Jemen means Yemen?
 
Thank you for this explanation. If you don't mind I have these questions:-

some 5600 years ago, Semitic E-M123 invaded the Levant from Egypt (which was not unified yet), they were nomadic shepherds they were ancestral to the Akkadians and the Amorites

in other words Akkadians and Amorites are descendants of Semetic (E-M123) Peoples that immigrated from Egypt? Where there other peoples living in the area when they did so?

arrived from J1-P58 were shepherds in the Southern Levant, they took over the Semitic language
they were ancestral to the Arabs some 4300 years ago some of them moved south to western Jemen

*)What language did the J1-P58 communicate with? Wasn't it Semitic too?
*)If the E-M123 brought in the Semitic language to the area, and J1 absorbed it, why is it that today that J1 is the absolute dominant HG in the area (Middle east) in relation to E-M123?
 
Thank you for this explanation. If you don't mind I have these questions:-



in other words Akkadians and Amorites are descendants of Semetic (E-M123) Peoples that immigrated from Egypt? Where there other peoples living in the area when they did so?



*)What language did the J1-P58 communicate with? Wasn't it Semitic too?
*)If the E-M123 brought in the Semitic language to the area, and J1 absorbed it, why is it that today that J1 is the absolute dominant HG in the area (Middle east) in relation to E-M123?

see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Semitic_language : out of Africa hypothesis

I believe the Semitic invasion finally caused the collapse of the Uruk expansion

E-M123 was in Akkadians and Amorites , and I guess later in Assyrians as well
And they were exported via the Phoenicians
But that is where their story ends

When they entered the Levant I guess there were J2 farmers and J1-P58 shepherds.

There were some J2 copperminers, traders and crafstsmen too : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassulian_culture and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timna_Valley
These fared well under the Uruk expansion

I believe some of the J2 traders and crafstsmen fled for the E-M123 Semities, they where the Minoans, arriving in Crete 5600 years ago ; Minoans were J2.

J1-P58 expanded toward Yemen 4300 years ago.
From there they conquered Arabia and Ethiopia.
Their last expansion was the expansion of Islam through the Middle East and North Africa.

The language J1 and J2 spoke befor is unknown
J2 spoke maybe something similar like the Minoans, but also about their language, not much is known , their script has never been deciphered
 
*)What language did the J1-P58 communicate with? Wasn't it Semitic too?

unknown, cause back than none of the modern language families had yet formed. I assume it is connected to ANE ancestry.
I even assume that this ANE ancestry in Semites was brought there by J*(especially J1-P58 among Semites) haplogroups.

*)If the E-M123 brought in the Semitic language to the area, and J1 absorbed it, why is it that today that J1 is the absolute dominant HG in the area (Middle east) in relation to E-M123?

founder effect, and it's a bit more complicated.

The Haplogroup what connects Afro_Asiatic speakers, is E1b1b*. Semites didn't exist until some Afro_Asiatic speakers reached southern Levant and mixed with the local herders(J1-P58). This gave birth to the first Semites who belonged to J1c3d and E1b1b*(Amorites, Akkadians etc). From there they expanded into all directions. The reason why the Arabian Peninsula is more dominated by J1c3d is because of bottleneck effect.

This gets obvious if you take a look at Semite population from levant (who come closer to the originale homeland) the frequency between J1-P58 and E1b1b* gets more equal. Just two examples Jordan J1-P58 (31%) E1b1b*(26%) and Lebanon J1-P58(20%) E1b1b*(17,5%). Some other Levantines were effected by a second wave of of Semites from the Arabian Peninsula (Islamic Expansion) and brought knew more of J1-P58 with them. This changed the demographics slightly.

Allot of J1* in Mesopotamia must also be pre Semite. I assume that Akkadians(later Assyrians, Babylonians), who brought Sumer to collapse and conquered Hurrian land, brought allot of E1b1b* with them.
 
see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Semitic_language : out of Africa hypothesis

I believe the Semitic invasion finally caused the collapse of the Uruk expansion

E-M123 was in Akkadians and Amorites , and I guess later in Assyrians as well
And they were exported via the Phoenicians
But that is where their story ends

When they entered the Levant I guess there were J2 farmers and J1-P58 shepherds.

I doubt that the original J2 people were farmers. Not much indiciates that. I assume J2 was just like J1 shepherds from the area between the Zagros and Taurus/Ararat mountain.

The real farmers were pre Semite E-V13 and G2a* people.
 
unknown, cause back than none of the modern language families had yet formed. I assume it is connected to ANE ancestry.
I even assume that this ANE ancestry in Semites was brought there by J*(especially J1-P58 among Semites) haplogroups.



founder effect, and it's a bit more complicated.

The Haplogroup what connects Afro_Asiatic speakers, is E1b1b*. Semites didn't exist until some Afro_Asiatic speakers reached southern Levant and mixed with the local herders(J1-P58). This gave birth to the first Semites who belonged to J1c3d and E1b1b*(Amorites, Akkadians etc). From there they expanded into all directions. The reason why the Arabian Peninsula is more dominated by J1c3d is because of bottleneck effect.

This gets obvious if you take a look at Semite population from levant (who come closer to the originale homeland) the frequency between J1-P58 and E1b1b* gets more equal. Just two examples Jordan J1-P58 (31%) E1b1b*(26%) and Lebanon J1-P58(20%) E1b1b*(17,5%). Some other Levantines were effected by a second wave of of Semites from the Arabian Peninsula (Islamic Expansion) and brought knew more of J1-P58 with them. This changed the demographics slightly.

Allot of J1* in Mesopotamia must also be pre Semite. I assume that Akkadians(later Assyrians, Babylonians), who brought Sumer to collapse and conquered Hurrian land, brought allot of E1b1b* with them.

particullary I agree ,
Hg E enter middle east before 4 ky and after 5,5 ky +-500 (para and mesopotamia)
but was in Near east at about 6 ky (from Sina to Levant and Jordania)
 
Many thanks all for the easy to follow answers. It makes things more clear.
 
Is it correct to assume, that since J's Haplogroup that was already in the area and absorbed the new comers (E-M123) language, it must have been a more superior culture, or stronger army? (if they conquered by war that is) This invasion/immigration was a few hundred years prior to the unification of Classical Egypt with the building of the great pyramids and temples if not mistaken.
 
particullary I agree ,
Hg E enter middle east before 4 ky and after 5,5 ky +-500 (para and mesopotamia)
but was in Near east at about 6 ky (from Sina to Levant and Jordania)

E* as a whole is allot older in Western Asia than the Semite family, thats true. It is a farmer Haplogroup and was spred to North Africa with farmers. But than when Afro_Asiatic speakers evolved allot of the E-m123 subclade was spred back to Western Asia by the Semites. E-V13 for example has not much to do with Semites.
 

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