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Aberdeen
04-08-14, 04:30
Okay, there doesn't seem to be much in the news about DNA this week, and I'm bored, so I'm going to suggest that we try to guess the Y DNA and autosomal results of the paper by David Reich et al addressing the genotyping of more than 40 3000-9000 year old humans from the Samara region of the Russian steppes. I'm guessing that the Y DNA will be exclusively or almost exclusively R1a, but I'm wondering if anyone wants to vote for there being significant amounts of another Y haplotype, such as R1b or J2. Also, I'm guessing that the DNA will prove to be exclusively or almost exclusively ANE, but I'm wondering if anyone wants to guess that the results will include significant amounts of EEF or WHG.

If a moderator wanted to make this into a voting poll, that would be fine with me.

bicicleur
04-08-14, 08:39
why do you expect some J2 and where do you think they came from ? and when?

9000 years ago their may have been some older tribes in the area too, like N or Q.
in the western steppe (not Samara) there must have been I2a1b too.
maybe R1a and R1b were just small tribes on the steppe, growing stronger 6-7000 years ago

when will the data on these 40 skelletons become available?

Aberdeen
04-08-14, 09:19
why do you expect some J2 and where do you think they came from ? and when?

9000 years ago their may have been some older tribes in the area too, like N or Q.
in the western steppe (not Samara) there must have been I2a1b too.
maybe R1a and R1b were just small tribes on the steppe, growing stronger 6-7000 years ago

when will the data on these 40 skelletons become available?

I didn't say I expected J2 - I don't. I just threw out an example, based on present distribution of some haplotypes, which seems to be the main reason that some people do seem to expect that R1b was part of the IE expansion (although of course J2 is less common in Europe than R1b and there are more alternative explanations for how J2 spread in Europe than there are for the dominance of R1b). N and Q would be possibilities based on probable proximity prior to the IE expansion and, in the case of N1c, its modern frequency in Russia, the Baltic and Scandinavia, although it isn't frequent in other modern IE language areas. But pick your own possibilities, as long as you can come up with a rationale for what you choose. But my guess is that most people who expect significant amounts of something in addition to R1a will only choose R1b.

The paper will be published "soon". Some people have contacted David Reich and that's all he can or will say at present.

Yetos
04-08-14, 12:32
yet
I expect to find enough of N Ydna in Samara above 15%

about J2 I expect a 5-10%

and ofcourse no E YDNA

Hg T might be raised also than common rates of today.

hope
06-08-14, 20:16
I`d also go with R1a, perhaps some N..but I`m probably way off.

Aberdeen
06-08-14, 22:18
I think that's a reasonable guess, Hope. Certainly the R1a types would have had contact with Uralic N types, although I personally don't think there's enough N in western Europe to suggest that the IE folk were part N.

How about the autosomal aspect? I'm placing my bet on the idea that IE=ANE, but that doesn't explain certain things, such as the persistence of high levels of EEF in places like Italy. What's your guess?

hope
07-08-14, 22:40
I think that's a reasonable guess, Hope. Certainly the R1a types would have had contact with Uralic N types, although I personally don't think there's enough N in western Europe to suggest that the IE folk were part N.

How about the autosomal aspect? I'm placing my bet on the idea that IE=ANE, but that doesn't explain certain things, such as the persistence of high levels of EEF in places like Italy. What's your guess?

Yes, of course you are right regarding N, Aberdeen. It was a very wild card and I hope I did not cause you too much time in considering how to point this out in such a polite way.:smile:

I confess I`m very out of my comfort zone in these type of topics, to some extent I`m still playing "catch-up" with you guys, so have not the confidence to give you the discussion your thread deserves...unfortunately.
Perhaps one of our other members, more knowledgeable in this than I, will weigh in and give you a much better debate than I know I could, Aberdeen.

joeyc
07-08-14, 22:44
R1a and N1c mostly. Some I2a and I*.

Aberdeen
08-08-14, 01:52
R1a and N1c mostly. Some I2a and I*.

Why would you expect to find I that far east that long ago? It's the one Y haplotype that seems to be European in origin, and it's not common in Russia today.

gyms
08-08-14, 13:33
Why would you expect to find I that far east that long ago? It's the one Y haplotype that seems to be European in origin, and it's not common in Russia today.

I hplgroup is quite common in Eurpean Russia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations

joeyc
08-08-14, 17:31
Why would you expect to find I that far east that long ago? It's the one Y haplotype that seems to be European in origin, and it's not common in Russia today.

I2 and I* were the dominant haplogroups of Northern and Eastern Europe, untill being replaced by lactose tollerant haplogroups (R1 and N1c) somewhere during the Copper-Bronze Age.

Aberdeen
08-08-14, 21:32
I2 and I* were the dominant haplogroups of Northern and Eastern Europe, untill being replaced by lactose tollerant haplogroups (R1 and N1c) somewhere during the Copper-Bronze Age.



Well, not entirely replaced, but partially replaced. So why would you expect to find I2 and I* in the vicinity of the IE homeland?

joeyc
08-08-14, 21:50
Well, not entirely replaced, but partially replaced. So why would you expect to find I2 and I* in the vicinity of the IE homeland?

Because those are the haplogroups found among all mesolitich hunther gatherers tested so far. Beside the C6 of La Brana man, but he was probably mixed and lived much further away from the PIE homeland than the other hunthers gatherers.

Aberdeen
08-08-14, 22:13
Because those are the haplogroups found among all mesolitich hunther gatherers tested so far. Beside the C6 of La Brana man, but he was probably mixed and lived much further away from the PIE homeland than the other hunthers gatherers.

What does that have to do with your thinking that I2 and I* will be found as far east as Samara?