PDA

View Full Version : What is the first mention of the term dun in a place name?



oldeuropeanculture
10-08-14, 19:44
Hi all

I am trying to track down the first mention of the term dun in a place name.

Thanks

MOESAN
15-08-14, 18:24
I've no precise date to give you, sorry -
Dun appeared at least in a lot of towns from western "Keltia" to central Poland, supposed celtic all of them -
it's surely cognate with germanic terms town (ton, tun) modern english "town",dutch tuin = "garden", german zaun "enclosure" ...
the first meaning would have been "closed village" <> "fortified village" + according to size, time and place: "fortress", "closed city" or ordinary "willage " or "town" - not same but very close evolutionS for breton kaer welsh caer << cetic cagro "fortress", "villa" ("closed farm"), "farm", "village", "town", "home"... (see latin villa >> ville, cottage)
PN London was Lugdunum I believe, as Lyon and Loudun and a town in pre-iron Poland if I'm right...

MOESAN
15-08-14, 18:32
PN London was Lugdunum I believe, as Lyon and Loudun and a town in pre-iron Poland if I'm right...

Sorry, I'm confused

London was Londino (greek?) Londinium (latin) before further evolutions in form and its etymology is discussed yet

Yetos
15-08-14, 21:25
maybe dun is the west form of -dawa? -tuva? but at end of a place name

FrankN
15-08-14, 21:46
If your understanding of "place names" includes rivers, there is of course that Pontic-Baltic cluster of rivers like Danube, Dniester, Dnieper, Don, and Daugava (Dvina/Düna). Water is "don" in Ossetian, and "danu" in Old Persian. Sanskrit has permutated the D-N root into sindhu =large river. Celtic seems to also have used the root (e.g. River Tyne*), so it apparently is ancient IE. The likelihood is high that at some point in pre-historic times, people speaking a specific dialect included "dun" instead of dan/don in their designation of a place/fort/hill on the water. Potential candidates include Danapur, a suburb of Patna, India, Dhanbad (=wet land), Bihar, Thinadhoo, Maldives, and Dhundhar, the ancient name of the Kingdom of Jaipur.

To make things worse, the Jordan river seems to have the same etymology. Considering that the Aramaic alphabet didn't have vowels, and dan/dun/din/den were thus interchangeable, the most likely answer to your question is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_(ancient_city)

On a closer look, this place is surely even older, though it is not clear whether dan/den at any point in time was turned into "dun" However, the "script without vowels" argument should apply here as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adana

Probably even more ancient:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidon

*) I love such pleonasms - River Tyne is as great as Rio Guadalquivir!

oldeuropeanculture
15-08-14, 22:35
Hi guys. Thank you for your comments. I am trying to determine what was the first recorded town name, settlement name with dun in it. What i found so far points to the oldest ones being recorded in the Balkans.

Capedunum - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=7:chapter= 5
Singidunum - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0062:entry=singidunu m-harpers
Carrodunum - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/2/14*.html

Every other mention of a town with a dun in its name is later.

Do you know of any older records then these?

Thanks in advance for your help

Eochaidh
16-08-14, 01:52
In 496 AD the Irish Annals record the storming of Dún Lethglaise now called Downpatrick in County Down. Dunseverick in Antrim is named after the Dun of Sobarki, the legendary king of Ulster who lived, (if he lived at all), several centuries before the common era.

MOESAN
16-08-14, 23:00
If your understanding of "place names" includes rivers, there is of course that Pontic-Baltic cluster of rivers like Danube, Dniester, Dnieper, Don, and Daugava (Dvina/Düna). Water is "don" in Ossetian, and "danu" in Old Persian. Sanskrit has permutated the D-N root into sindhu =large river. Celtic seems to also have used the root (e.g. River Tyne*), so it apparently is ancient IE. The likelihood is high that at some point in pre-historic times, people speaking a specific dialect included "dun" instead of dan/don in their designation of a place/fort/hill on the water. Potential candidates include Danapur, a suburb of Patna, India, Dhanbad (=wet land), Bihar, Thinadhoo, Maldives, and Dhundhar, the ancient name of the Kingdom of Jaipur.

To make things worse, the Jordan river seems to have the same etymology. Considering that the Aramaic alphabet didn't have vowels, and dan/dun/din/den were thus interchangeable, the most likely answer to your question is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_(ancient_city)

On a closer look, this place is surely even older, though it is not clear whether dan/den at any point in time was turned into "dun" However, the "script without vowels" argument should apply here as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adana

Probably even more ancient:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidon

*) I love such pleonasms - River Tyne is as great as Rio Guadalquivir!

without exclude any possibility of common ancient meaning I have momentally some difficulty to link the meaning of "fortress" or "enclosed village" to the one of "river"...
in Pokornik list I found *Dâ- "fluid", "river", "flow" +other close root *Dhen- to flow, to run (a first loan by a macro-family of I-E languages to another macro-family, at an early enough stage ???) - big possibilities for a link with Danau, Donau... and others placenames -
I see NO proved link with 'dun' - what I find is the gaelic verb dùn-adh "to shut off", "to close" with some link with the meanings: "enclosure", "enclosed village" ...

FrankN
19-08-14, 06:59
without exclude any possibility of common ancient meaning I have momentally some difficulty to link the meaning of "fortress" or "enclosed village" to the one of "river"...
in Pokornik list I found *Dâ- "fluid", "river", "flow" +other close root *Dhen- to flow, to run (a first loan by a macro-family of I-E languages to another macro-family, at an early enough stage ???) - big possibilities for a link with Danau, Donau... and others placenames -
I see NO proved link with 'dun' - what I find is the gaelic verb dùn-adh "to shut off", "to close" with some link with the meanings: "enclosure", "enclosed village" ...
I also have the feeling that we are speaking of two unrelated roots. One might, however, speculate that Celts (IEs) regarded major waterways as barriers, and later transferred the barrier meaning to artificial barriers, i.e. fortification. One should consider that walls were often accompanied by water-filled trenches, and some excavations suggest the latter being the more ancient type.
I furthermore have the impression that many of the -dunum towns are located on river islands or at least on peninsulas between the confluences of two rivers (which are easily convertible into an island by a bit of trench-digging). Singidunum (Belgrade), Campodunum (Kempten/ Allgäu), Lugdunum (Lyon) Lugdunum Batavia (Leyden) and Augustodunum (Autun) fit this criteria. The area around Camoludunum (Colchester) looks marshy enough to make it a possibility, and the Scotch-Irish versions (Dundalk, Dundee, Dun Laoghaire) are all shore settlements. The photo of Doon Lough below gives an idea of how the transfer of meaning may have come about.
http://www.oboylephoto.com/ireland/doon_above.JPG
In short: "Dun" may originally not have been a fence, but a trench. In this case, even an at first sight unlikely candidate like Dunum in East Frisia (one of the richest bronze-age burials in North Germany, burial site of Frisian kings according to folk mythology, settlement evidence since the 1st century BC) deserves consideration.
https://www.google.de/maps/place/Dunum/@53.5876614,7.628919,13z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x47b6643490697449:0x5bba0bdd4f08d e9a

FrankN
19-08-14, 08:00
Hi guys. Thank you for your comments. I am trying to determine what was the first recorded town name, settlement name with dun in it. What i found so far points to the oldest ones being recorded in the Balkans.

Capedunum - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=7:chapter= 5
Singidunum - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0062:entry=singidunu m-harpers
Carrodunum - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/2/14*.html

Every other mention of a town with a dun in its name is later.

Do you know of any older records then these?

Thanks in advance for your help
In Book 4 Strabo also records a Lugdunum in the Pyrenees (4.I.2), Lugdunum / Lyom (4.3.2) and Campodunum / Kempten (4.6.8).

If you consider Sidon a "dun" name, and I think there is good reason to do so, it has already been mentioned by Homer and in some Phoenician inscriptions.
https://archive.org/details/jstor-3287919

oldeuropeanculture
19-08-14, 08:42
Thank you FrankN. I think Dun is just another pronunciation of tun. Both mean enclosure, vessel, container, something where you can put things in....

oldeuropeanculture
19-08-14, 08:47
It is interesting you mention Sidon. Ever thought of Tyre:


Tyre originally consisted of two distinct urban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_area) centers, Tyre itself, which was on an island just off shore, and the associated settlement of Ushu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ushu) on the adjacent mainland. Alexander the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great) connected the island to the mainland by constructing acauseway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway) during his siege of the city (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Tyre_(332_BC)),[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon#cite_note-7) demolishing the old city to reuse its cut stone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

Tyre was made on an Island off shore. Tir in Gaelic means land. Could it be reclaimed land in this case? And if so what would that tell us about Phoenicians?

FrankN
19-08-14, 09:55
Tyre was made on an Island off shore. Tir in Gaelic means land. Could it be reclaimed land in this case? And if so what would that tell us about Phoenicians?
Well, first of all that they needed the Greeks to learn how to build causeways :innocent:. But, more seriously, it is known that the Phoenicians / Carthagians were involved in trading Cornish tin. What is unclear yet is how early in time these operations started, and if they went to Cornwall / Ireland directly or acquired the metal from some intermediate source. I have been arguing in the thread below for a possible Levantine origin of the Bell Beaker people, and linguistic similarity like the one you have pointed at would fit the pattern.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30316-Bell-Beaker-As-Intrusive-Population

I should add, however, that tir=island makes more sense, also if you think of the Tyrrhenian Sea. The islands there are quite large (Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, Mallorca etc.), so why shouldn't (proto-)Phoenicians also have regarded Ireland as "tir". The "natives" could have understood the term a bit differently, though...

Sile
19-08-14, 11:25
Well, first of all that they needed the Greeks to learn how to build causeways :innocent:. But, more seriously, it is known that the Phoenicians / Carthagians were involved in trading Cornish tin. What is unclear yet is how early in time these operations started, and if they went to Cornwall / Ireland directly or acquired the metal from some intermediate source. I have been arguing in the thread below for a possible Levantine origin of the Bell Beaker people, and linguistic similarity like the one you have pointed at would fit the pattern.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30316-Bell-Beaker-As-Intrusive-Population

I should add, however, that tir=island makes more sense, also if you think of the Tyrrhenian Sea. The islands there are quite large (Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, Mallorca etc.), so why shouldn't (proto-)Phoenicians also have regarded Ireland as "tir". The "natives" could have understood the term a bit differently, though...

http://phoenicia.org/canaancornwall.html

one site that states a Phoenician -irish link

oldeuropeanculture
19-08-14, 12:40
Tir the land in the sea, Island, dry land, not water....:) Tera

Diviacus
19-08-14, 12:47
In de Bello Gallico, J.Caesar mentions:
- Noviodunum Biturifum
- Noviodunum Haedurum,
- Noviodunum Suessionum
- Uxellodunum
- Vellaunodunum

These towns are not related to water, but to mounts.
old irish: dun = fortress
old irish: dunad = camp
welsh: Din = town
old Breton: din
...
The common Celtic "*dunon" is closely related to German "*tuna". The initial meaning is "enclosed area"
(from X.Delamarre - Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise)

FrankN
19-08-14, 13:53
In de Bello Gallico, J.Caesar mentions:
- Noviodunum Biturifum
- Noviodunum Haedurum,
- Noviodunum Suessionum
- Uxellodunum
- Vellaunodunum

These towns are not related to water, but to mounts.
old irish: dun = fortress
old irish: dunad = camp
welsh: Din = town
old Breton: din
...
The common Celtic "*dunon" is closely related to German "*tuna". The initial meaning is "enclosed area"
(from X.Delamarre - Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise)
Are you sure we are talking of mounts here, not river embankments?
- Noviodunum Biturigum = Neuvy-sur-Barangeon
- Noviodunum Haedurum = Nevers
- Noviodunum Suessionum = Soissons
- Vellaunodunum = Beaune ?

Uxellodunum is believed to be a hill near Saint-Denis-les-Martel, but even that hill might once have been an island in the floodplain of the Dordogne.

Diviacus
19-08-14, 14:48
Well, in all the books I have (quite a lot), the meaning of fortress or "on a hill" is always mentioned, with no mention of river or island.

FrankN
19-08-14, 15:31
..
The common Celtic "*dunon" is closely related to German "*tuna". The initial meaning is "enclosed area"
(from X.Delamarre - Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise)
Actually, it isn't (at least not in German). The original German meaning is basket-work or wattle. The corresponding verb "zäunen" has historically been applied to making fences, but also baskets and (clay-covered) walls, from willow or hazel rods. It seems to be related to "Gezähe/ Gezau" = tool, "Tau"=rope, and "ziehen"=to draw, to pull.
Latin zona may have the same root. Original meaning "belt", it was in the medieval also used for geographical belts, e.g. climate zones, and then gradually expanded its meaning.

Moreover, the container meaning, as in ton, seems to have been a medieval German borrowing from Celtic, via either French or English. Grimm reports that no early forms of "Tonne" (ton) are found in Old German. The word disseminated inland from the ports, which of course knew and handled tons as container for liquids.


Well, in all the books I have (quite a lot), the meaning of fortress or "on a hill" is always mentioned, with no mention of river or island.
That may well be. But most of the authors probably had neither access to Google Maps, nor visited all the places in question. We now have put together some 10 dunums. Check out their geography for yourself, count the mountains and the rivers...

Diviacus
19-08-14, 19:52
As there are probably hundreds of sites named with -dunum, it would be burdensome to check all these.

I have checked some books where dunum was explained. I give a list of the 10 first appearances I have noted:

X.Delamarre – Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise (2003) page 154 :
dunon, « citadelle, enceinte fortifiée, mont » (fortress, fotified area, mount)
« One of the most common term in the European toponymy, which means the fort, the circular citadel, the fortified area, generally on a hill.”

V.Kruta – Les Celtes (2000) page 588:
Dunum, or dunon (gaelique dun « fortress »).

B.Sergent – Les Indo-Européens (1995) page 193 :
« The origin of *plH(ey)es is from the root *pleHl- “to poor” because to build a wall, it was necessary to poor earth and stones. In occidental IE languages, a synonym of *plH(ey)es attested by words gl. dunum “oppidum”, germ. Zaun “enclosure”, old Engl. and isl. tun “town” is linked to words meaning “sand dune”, “hill”. This confirms the concept of pooring earth to build a fortification”.

Plutarch – Names of rivers and mountains…(~ 80 AD) VI,1-4
“beside Arar, is the mount Lugdunum, […]. … they called the city Lugdunum. Because in their language a raven is called lugos, and a high place is called dunum…”

M. Rat – La guerre des Gaules traduction française (1964) page 246 :
« Uxellodunum – Fortified site of the Cadurques…Its name means « high fortress. »”

S.Gendron – La toponymie des voies romaines et médiévales (2006) page 116:
« Dunum : The Gaulish word dunum « fortress, fortified enclosure »,… It refers generally to a fortress, a fortified enclosure, and is generally located on a hill, equivalent of the Latin oppidum.”

H.Walter – L’aventure des langues en Occident (1994) page 78:
« Dunum : high fortress, hill »

J.Markale – Les celtes et la civilisation celtique (1999) page 454 :
“« dunum, « hill », then « fortified hill »”

D.Garcia – Territoires celtiques (2002) page 318:
“ The toponymy can be discussed, particularly with names of sites including Dun or Dunum, generally translated by “fortress”. ”

E.Mantel – in La Revue archéologique de Picardie (2006) page 39 :
“Briga, meaning “mount”, “hill, “high spot”, […] often used among the Celtiberians, where it seems to be the equivalent of –dunum, prefered in Gaul.”

I could find dozens more, but none of these refer to water or island, and I'm sure I have never seen this explanation.

However, most cities are not far from a river!

Diviacus
19-08-14, 20:04
Are you sure we are talking of mounts here, not river embankments?
- Noviodunum Biturigum = Neuvy-sur-Barangeon
- Noviodunum Haedurum = Nevers
- Noviodunum Suessionum = Soissons
- Vellaunodunum = Beaune ?

Uxellodunum is believed to be a hill near Saint-Denis-les-Martel, but even that hill might once have been an island in the floodplain of the Dordogne.

Noviodunum Biturigum = Neuvy-sur-Barangeon, or Neung sur Beuvron,
Noviodunum Haedurum = Nevers, or Nogent
Noviodunum Suessionum = Soissons : most probably Pommiers or Villeneuve St Germain
Vellaunodunum = Beaune ?, or Triguères, or Montagris, or Villon

Uxellodunum is now attested to be Le Puy d'Issolud, with a great probability.

FrankN
19-08-14, 22:48
@Diviacus: To make my point a bit clearer, first a look at some Celtic oppida:
http://michael.schuchardt.blogs.velo-event.com/files/2010/09/dunsberg.jpg
Dünsberg, 7 km N of Wetzlar (the large one in the back). Early Halstatt to mid-LaTene, fortification with 14 gates, some 2,000 inhabitants. Actually a tricky example, since "Dün" might relate to dunum. However;, as the Lahn valley below is full of finds of LaTene settlements and ironworks, and a number of towns/ villages there end on "-lar", which is supposed to be a Celtic root, the "dunum" might also have been somewhere on the river.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%BCnsberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetzlar

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Staffelberg_Franken.jpg/640px-Staffelberg_Franken.jpg
Staffelberg, possibly Ptolemy's Menosgada and the old capital of the Boji

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Orvieto_panorama.jpg/640px-Orvieto_panorama.jpg
My imagination of the prototypical oppidum, though this one isn't Celtic, but Etrurian: Orvieto (Umbria). Note the rivers everywhere...

Now some "dunums"
http://www.freiburg-schwarzwald.de/fotos07jan/tarodunum-plan1.jpg
The excavation area of Tarodunum (Zarten), 10 km E of Freiburg/ Breisgau

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Fossa_Corbulonis_map.png
Wikipedia map of the Dutch coast in Roman times, including Lugdunum Batavia (now submerged)

http://www.civilization.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Colchester-AD-250_600px.jpg
A reconstruction of Roman-age Camoludunum (Colchester)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/AirBelgrade2.png/640px-AirBelgrade2.png
Singidunum (Belgrade) from the air. The castle area (bottom right) is a bit elevated (20 m?), so I give you embankment/ dune, but not mountain.

http://www.kempten-net.de/Ke2_351c.jpg
Campodunum (Kempten/ Allgäu). The Roman forum was in the upper-right corner, across the river. Again some embankment, maybe 10-15 m high. Kempten is close to the Alps, at some 700 m elevation. There would have been plenty of mountains to settle on in the area, if the Celts had wished to do so...

You will be better able than I to check the French dunums. But the pattern I see so far doesn't fit to what many French (and actually also German) authors state about the meaning of "dunum". Derivation from "dune" = embankment is fine, fortification of course, but otherwise....

Diviacus
20-08-14, 13:15
As I said, the first meaning of "dunum" in the Celtic languages is enclosure or fortress.
The second meaning is "on a hill".
This can be explained as the great majority of Celtic fortresses in the VIth and Vth centuries (Celtic prince fortresses) and later in the IInd and Ist centuries (oppida) have been built on a hill.

About your exemples:
TARODUNUM
Since the beginning of the 19th century, a large fortified area (approximately 200 hectares in size), a few kilometers to the East of the city of Freiburg/Breisgau (Black Forest Region) was identified as the Celtic Oppidum Tsrodunum (= Zarten). The name of this site was first mentioned by Claudius Ptolemaios (83-161 AD) in his 'Geographike Hyphegensis'. The modern villages of Kirchzarten and Hinterzarten still retain the roots of the original Celtic word in their names. Archaeological excavations at Tarodunum revealed a type of fortification corresponding to Caesar's murus gallicus. Immediately in front of the hill-site oppidum is situated a late Celtic settlement, covering an area of about 16 hectares, occupied from the 2nd to the 1st centuries BC. Abundant finds of pottery, coloured glass and more than a hundred coins of precious and base metals are proof of extensive Celtic workshop activities, particularly in the realm of metals.
https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=31&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAAOB4&url=http%3A%2F%2Flink.springer.com%2Fcontent%2Fpdf %2F10.1007%252FBF03214786.pdf&ei=KET0U5O-F4qp0QXg8oCgCw&usg=AFQjCNHe1obfz-a6w70poRZHc_CIiIzSpA&sig2=7F8HuK9jeQtkz_un3Jgkqg

Tarodunum, 190 ha, established on a barred spur
https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oppida.org%2Fpage.php%3Flg%3D fr%26rub%3D00%26id_oppidum%3D75&ei=Kkf0U57nIaKh0QXupYCYBg&usg=AFQjCNEeNfu7pPXzfRSyj6hrBrbevPnyCg&sig2=eOcn6QZi8jg4O_4njN85Fg


DÜNSBERG (O.Büchsenschütz – Towns, villages and countryside of Celtic Europe – 1991 )
Page 88:
The site of Dünsberg, the area of which varied from one period to another, clearly shows a deliberate intention to establish a certain size for the settlement by fortifying first the summit of the hill, then halfway down its slopes, and finally the entire feature
Page 238:
The Dünsberg, whose lofty silhouette can be seen from afar and which had already been fortified, was encircled by a rampart at the base of its slopes.

CAMULODUNUM (Colchester)

Since the appearance of Camulodunum in 1947, the Iron Age human topography is better known, and beliefs about Iron Age cultures have in part been modified, but the account of the natural landscape, in its essentials, requires no change from that given on pages 1-4 in that publication, with frontispiece map (pl 1). That frontispiece map, though contoured only at 100 ft up from the Ordnance Datum for sea-level, showed how sharply the central plateau is bounded by the two rivers (the Colne and its Roman River confluent) in the valleys that both (with their feeders) have cut steeply down through the plateau's deep gravel to the derlying London Clay.
http://cat.essex.ac.uk/reports/CAR-report-0011.pdf


SINGIDUNUM

The first evidence of primitive fortification came later in the 3rd century BC, with the settlement of the Scordisci who picked the strategic hilltop at the meeting of the two rivers as the basis for their habitation.
https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSingidu num&ei=JE30U8nSGOaj0QX0kIGwAQ&usg=AFQjCNE5blz1vbJ7W72PwVzWyjG0hYjoiA&sig2=ADEvLgAgOPEpurG4uXBVnw

CAMBODUNUM (Kempten)
(my translation)
At that time, the monk from Saint-Gall Audogar founded a missionary cell on the river embankment of Iller, in front of the ancient Roman hill of Cambodunum.
https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjADOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.randomhouse.de%2Fleseprobe%2F Le-pays-de-Louis-II-Franz%2Fleseprobe_9783791324715.pdf&ei=RlD0U4XhNsWi0QW6hYDoDw&usg=AFQjCNEZLvwSlnsT0N7-Q9-4Wq01dZkIYw&sig2=RRwNIHcpeTlljWpN6Mtg1A

After the Romans abandoned the settlement, it was moved from the hill down to the plains located next to the river Iller
https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKempten&ei=tVD0U6_rGMPH0QXly4HoAg&usg=AFQjCNEcrwnGUOqWehDbLy775xDqo-f5dg&sig2=thXXjvMIKzMIEaEcRXjg5g

In all these exemples, the existence of a hill is mentioned by at least one author. (I don't say it would be the case for the hundreds of sites including "dunum", but at least for the exemples you gave)
So, considering that:
- 100% of the explanations I have found about the meaning of "dunum" always mention "fortress", and very often "on a hill"
- most of the sites correspond to these 2 meanings (the second beeing easily understood as I said before)
- I didn't find one explanation of the meaning of dunum meaning "embankment" or "island"
I'm not at all convinced by your opinion (which I understand).

Now, I think that most often a river is below a hill where a fortress has been built. But this doesn't imply that the meaning of "dunum" should be embankment.

FrankN
20-08-14, 17:08
As I said, the first meaning of "dunum" in the Celtic languages is enclosure or fortress.
The second meaning is "on a hill".
This can be explained as the great majority of Celtic fortresses in the VIth and Vth centuries (Celtic prince fortresses) and later in the IInd and Ist centuries (oppida) have been built on a hill.

About your exemples:
TARODUNUM
Since the beginning of the 19th century, a large fortified area (approximately 200 hectares in size), a few kilometers to the East of the city of Freiburg/Breisgau (Black Forest Region) was identified as the Celtic Oppidum Tsrodunum (= Zarten). The name of this site was first mentioned by Claudius Ptolemaios (83-161 AD) in his 'Geographike Hyphegensis'. The modern villages of Kirchzarten and Hinterzarten still retain the roots of the original Celtic word in their names. Archaeological excavations at Tarodunum revealed a type of fortification corresponding to Caesar's murus gallicus. Immediately in front of the hill-site oppidum is situated a late Celtic settlement, covering an area of about 16 hectares, occupied from the 2nd to the 1st centuries BC. Abundant finds of pottery, coloured glass and more than a hundred coins of precious and base metals are proof of extensive Celtic workshop activities, particularly in the realm of metals.
https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=31&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAAOB4&url=http%3A%2F%2Flink.springer.com%2Fcontent%2Fpdf %2F10.1007%252FBF03214786.pdf&ei=KET0U5O-F4qp0QXg8oCgCw&usg=AFQjCNHe1obfz-a6w70poRZHc_CIiIzSpA&sig2=7F8HuK9jeQtkz_un3Jgkqg

Tarodunum, 190 ha, established on a barred spur
https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oppida.org%2Fpage.php%3Flg%3D fr%26rub%3D00%26id_oppidum%3D75&ei=Kkf0U57nIaKh0QXupYCYBg&usg=AFQjCNEeNfu7pPXzfRSyj6hrBrbevPnyCg&sig2=eOcn6QZi8jg4O_4njN85Fg

Thanks for your extensive reply. We are turning this thread into a comprehensive collection of information on pre-Roman urbanism, which I think is very worthwhile undertaking.

On Tarodunum: As is becoming apparent from the aearial photograph I have posted above, this is not a hill-top fort. From the German Wikipedia article:

Die Form der Anlage entspricht einem langgezogenen Dreieck zwischen den zwei Quellbächen der Dreisam, Wagensteigbach und Höllenbach, die mit Wällen geschützt waren; geschickt wurden die bis zu 15 m[1] hohen Böschungen einbezogen. Es sind heute noch schwache Reste vom südöstlichen Wall erhalten, der als Heidengraben bezeichnet wird.

Translation: The establishment forms a stretched-out triangle between the two source creeks of the Dreisam, the Wagensteigbach and the Höllenbach, which is protected by walls; the embankments of up to 15m elevation were skilfully included. Today, some remains of the southern wall, which is known as "heathens' trench", are still preserved.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarodunum


CAMULODUNUM (Colchester)

Since the appearance of Camulodunum in 1947, the Iron Age human topography is better known, and beliefs about Iron Age cultures have in part been modified, but the account of the natural landscape, in its essentials, requires no change from that given on pages 1-4 in that publication, with frontispiece map (pl 1). That frontispiece map, though contoured only at 100 ft up from the Ordnance Datum for sea-level, showed how sharply the central plateau is bounded by the two rivers (the Colne and its Roman River confluent) in the valleys that both (with their feeders) have cut steeply down through the plateau's deep gravel to the derlying London Clay.
http://cat.essex.ac.uk/reports/CAR-report-0011.pdf

The same principle: A slightly elevated plateau between two rivers, the embankments of which are used as natural fortification. Checking with some cycling maps yielded a maximum elevation of around 40m in the town centre, the river crossing is at 5m elevation. Elevation map is below:
http://www.weather-forecast.com/weatherobjects/map/C/Colchester.jpg


SINGIDUNUM

The first evidence of primitive fortification came later in the 3rd century BC, with the settlement of the Scordisci who picked the strategic hilltop at the meeting of the two rivers as the basis for their habitation.
https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSingidu num&ei=JE30U8nSGOaj0QX0kIGwAQ&usg=AFQjCNE5blz1vbJ7W72PwVzWyjG0hYjoiA&sig2=ADEvLgAgOPEpurG4uXBVnw


http://www.weather-forecast.com/weatherobjects/map/B/Beograd.jpg
According to a cycling map (http://www.mapmyride.com/rs/belgrade-se/), the Sava bridge is at 75m elevation, the fortress hill goes up to 125 m. Whether that's a hill or an embankment is something we can spend thousands of posts discussing. The important thing here is that the location was chosen for its proximity to the river confluence. The embankment hill came in handy, of course, but wasn't decisive. There are lots of higher and better defensible hills around, e.g. the one to the bottom right of the topographic map.


CAMBODUNUM (Kempten)
(my translation)
At that time, the monk from Saint-Gall Audogar founded a missionary cell on the river embankment of Iller, in front of the ancient Roman hill of Cambodunum.
https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjADOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.randomhouse.de%2Fleseprobe%2F Le-pays-de-Louis-II-Franz%2Fleseprobe_9783791324715.pdf&ei=RlD0U4XhNsWi0QW6hYDoDw&usg=AFQjCNEZLvwSlnsT0N7-Q9-4Wq01dZkIYw&sig2=RRwNIHcpeTlljWpN6Mtg1A


After the Romans abandoned the settlement, it was moved from the hill down to the plains located next to the river Iller
https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKempten&ei=tVD0U6_rGMPH0QXly4HoAg&usg=AFQjCNEcrwnGUOqWehDbLy775xDqo-f5dg&sig2=thXXjvMIKzMIEaEcRXjg5g
http://www.weather-forecast.com/weatherobjects/map/K/Kempten-Allgaeu.jpg
I have no idea why anybody calls this a hill. This is clearly an embankment, of some 25m elevation (medieval town in the floodprone river marsh at 674 m elevation, western river bank around 700m elevation). Note that while the roman forum has been excavated, no major traces of the Celtic settlement have been found so far. It may thus have been located beneath the medieval town on the eastern river bank. In that case, it would probably have included the "Burghalde", a 25m elevation to the south of the medieval town, which is believed to once have been a river island (though not anymore during Roman times).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Kataster_Burghalde_Kempten_1823.png/640px-Kataster_Burghalde_Kempten_1823.png

In all these exemples, the existence of a hill is mentioned by at least one author. (I don't say it would be the case for the hundreds of sites including "dunum", but at least for the exemples you gave)
So, considering that:
- 100% of the explanations I have found about the meaning of "dunum" always mention "fortress", and very often "on a hill"
- most of the sites correspond to these 2 meanings (the second beeing easily understood as I said before)
- I didn't find one explanation of the meaning of dunum meaning "embankment" or "island"
I'm not at all convinced by your opinion (which I understand).

Now, I think that most often a river is below a hill where a fortress has been built. But this doesn't imply that the meaning of "dunum" should be embankment
You missed out on Lugdunum Batavia, which has been submerged in the meantime, so the "hill" obviously wasn't very high. But I don't want to go into nit-picking here. My intention is to understand the distinction the Celts (and not some authors) made between a "dunum" and a "briga". All the dunums discussed here so far are located on major transport routes (Tarodunum on the Rhine-Danube connection, Kempten on the Brenner-Inn valley-Upper Danube connection, etc.). The same obviously applies to Lyon and Soissons. The function is first and foremost a trading one. Certain defensive properties, i.e. an embankment hill, are appreciated, and enhanced by additional fortification, but they are not the prime motive for site selection.

In contrast, site selection for classical hill-top forts / oppida/ briga was primarily motivated by defensive properties. The Staffleberg (Menosgada, 539m) rises some 260 m over the upper Main valley, from which it is 5km distant. The Dünsberg (497 m, the easternmost elevation at the top of the map below) is 350 m above, and 7km away from the Lahn valley. Thus, we have the opposite pattern here - defensibility comes first, proximity to trade routes is good to have.
http://www.weather-forecast.com/weatherobjects/map/W/Wetzlar.jpg

By lumping together these quite different patterns into the same category of "Celtic hill-top forts", we lose understanding of their differences, and also of the processes that sometimes during the 3rd/2nd century BC lead many (but not all) Celts to compromise on defendability in order enhance the accessibility of their settlements. Dunums were towns, many of them are sizeable cities today. But among the many hill-top forts that once existed in Germany, none is still settled today.

Diviacus
20-08-14, 19:49
OK, I think we will not discuss indefinitely on this subject.
Just 4 points:

1- What did the Celts mean by "dunum"

My intention is to understand the distinction the Celts (and not some authors) made between a "dunum" and a "briga". The only text so far found explaining what the Celts meant by "dunum" is the texte of Plutarch:
Plutarch – Names of rivers and mountains…(~ 80 AD) VI,1-4
“beside Arar, is the mount Lugdunum, […]. … they called the city Lugdunum. Because in their language a raven is called lugos, and a high place is called dunum…”

2- Words derived from "dunum"
In French and in English, "dune" means a hill

3- Examples where "dunum" is obviouly a hill
The mount called Donon in the Vosges:

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/603101PhotoDonon.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=603101PhotoDonon.jpg)

4- The first meaning of "dunum"

In any case, we must not forget that the first meaning is fortress, whichever is the location.

FrankN
21-08-14, 04:46
@ Diviacus: This is really getting interesting!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Rhein-Neckar_in_r%C3%B6mischer_Zeit.png ]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Marktplatz-Ladenburg.JPG/320px-Marktplatz-Ladenburg.JPG
Let me first add another dunum to our collection: Lokodunom / Lopodunum (Ladenburg), on the Neckar half-way between Mannheim and Heidelberg. It is already in the Upper Rhine plain, which is as level as it can get, so historians had to use some creativity to explain the name. Note that there isn't any lake around either:

Les premières installations se sont faites entre -3000 et -200. Ladenburg était alors connue sous le nom celtique « Lokudunom » (Château du Lac) puis « Lopodunum ».http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladenburg

I generally don't have a problem with taking "dunum" as "elevated place", river embankments are also elevated in relation to the river bed. "Dune" has already been discussed here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29330-slavic-germanic-and-others-for-the-fun/page3
The most common meaning is of course that of a sand dune. That meaning could be used to explain the name Lugdunum Batavia, but for Lokudunom? No chance!. I anyway had thought that a dunum would be a rather low elevation, a higher one would be a "dol", as, e.g., apparent in the name "Dollberg", which houses one of the largest fortifications ever constructed by the Celts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_circular_wall_of_Otzenhausen

And now you come with the Donon! Obviously a sizeable mountain, but apparently a sanctuary, not a fortified place. Does that mean that "enclosure" is not among the original meanings of dunum, or has the enclosure just not been found so far?
On the Dünsberg alone, I was still prepared to interpret the name as "briga of/for the dunum" - the dunum itself would have been somewhere around Wetzlar and Gießen on the banks of the Lahn. But the Donon inspired me to look for more mountains with such names. And, in fact, there are more, which, with a bit of creativity and accounting for Germanic immigrants re-interpreting Celtic names in their own way, may be understood as "dunum";
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnersberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornburg,_Hesse
[Since some of the English Wikipedia articles are rather poor in content, you might want to consult German Wikipedia using online translation instead. Decent information can also be found at
http://www.oppida.org/]

So, you really find me puzzled now. Dunum apparently relates to mountaintop settlements, as well as to settlements located in the plains or at the seashore without significant elevation. Most dunums were fortified cities, but the Donon looks like a non-fortified sanctuary. If your books provide any assistance in putting some structure into this mess, don't hesitate to share the insights with us.

Diviacus
21-08-14, 11:30
It doesn't seem to complicated to me :wary2:

(my answer is based on the article of X.Delamarre already quoted)
1- The first meaning is “enclosure” which lead to “fortified enclosure”, “fortress”.
2- The author begins by “dunon, « citadelle, enceinte fortifiée, mont » (fortress, fotified area, mount)
« One of the most common term in the European toponymy, which means the fort, the circular citadel, the fortified area, generally on a hill.”
I think that this first meaning can explain a very large number, if not all, of city names using “dunum”.

Then the author “translates” the names of more than 60 city names using “dunum”. He always uses the meaning “fortress”.

Then a sentence I don’t quite well understand : “In the glossaire de Vienne ‘dunum enim montem’ shows the metonymical evolution from the initial meaning ‘enclosed area, fortress’ to ‘mount, hill, high place’.”

The second meaning of “on a hill, high place” came later, perhaps or probably because many fortresses were built on a hill. But I think one must give a prioriy to the first meaning.
And later, this second meaning may have been used, without a fortress, just to mean “hill” or “high place” (Donon).

The example of Uxellodunum:

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/413920Uxellodunum1.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=413920Uxellodunum1.jpg)

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/333750Uxellodunum.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=333750Uxellodunum.jpg)


This is obviously a fortress built on a high place. And the name is composed of “uxello” (high) and “dunum” (fortress). This would indicate that the meaning of “dunum” as “on a hill” was not so obvious to prevent using “uxello” to say “high”.

Maleth
21-08-14, 15:19
Dundee Scotland

The name "Dundee" is made up of two parts: the common Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages) place-name element dun, meaning fort; and a second part that may derive from a Celtic element, cognate with the Gaelic dè, meaning 'fire'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundee

The name "Dundee" is of uncertain etymology. It incorporates the place-name element dùn, fort, present in both Gaelic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic_language) and in Brythonic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brythonic_languages) such as Pictish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictish).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dundee#cite_note-1) The remainder of the name is less obvious. One possibility is that it comes from the Gaelic 'Dèagh', meaning 'fire'. Another is that it derives from 'Tay', and it is in this form,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dundee

FrankN
21-08-14, 19:10
Alright - Donon and Dünsberg disfavour a "dina" (water) root, Uxellodunum and Lukodunom speak against a "dune" (hill) root. The "enclosure" meaning is etymologically weak, especially in the proposed analogy to German "Zaun". Moreover, an enclosure on the Donon still remains to be found. So, how about this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_(assembly)

A thing (Old Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse), Old English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English) and Icelandic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_language): þing; German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language), Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language) ding; modern Scandinavian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_languages): ting) was the governing assembly in Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_tribes) societies and introduced into some Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) societies (..)
The Old Norse, Old Frisian and Old English þing with the meaning "assembly" is identical in origin to the English word thing, German Ding, Dutch ding, and modern Scandinavian ting when meaning "object".[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_(assembly)#cite_note-onlinetymology-1) They are derived from Proto-Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic) *þingą meaning "appointed time", and some suggest an origin in Proto-Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) *ten-, "stretch", as in a "stretch of time for an assembly. (..)
The assembly of the thing was typically held at a specially-designated place, often a field or common, like Þingvellir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Eingvellir), the old location of the Icelandic thing (Alþingi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Althing)). The parliament of the Isle of Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man) is still named after the meeting place of the thing, Tynwald (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tynwald), which etymologically is the same word as "þingvellir". (..) In Dublin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin), Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland) the Thingmote was a raised mound, 40 foot high and 240 foot in circumference, where the Norsemen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen) assembled and made their laws. It stood on the south of the river, adjacent to Dublin Castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Castle), until 1685. (..) The naming of the two roads named Inner and Outer Ting Tong on the hill-top in Devon between Budleigh Salterton, Woodbury and Exmouth is widely derided as fanciful, but is regarded by locals as being derived in the normal way from a Thing-Tun - a dun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dun) or small settlement around the place where the Thing used to meet.

I have noted the Gaelic verb déan, which means to do, but also to attain, to undertake, to make, to render, to convert, to celebrate. The derived "déanaim" means banquet. Thus, a dunum could have been the central assembly place, originally for decision-making, jurisdiction and celebration, later on also (often primarily) serving trade. Of course, such a place would have a special deity / saint (Spanish: Don). The ritual should have included donations, which would also have been expected from by-passing foreigners, and could ultimately have turned into collection of duties (French: douane).

Diviacus
21-08-14, 21:05
I don't understand why:
- You don't keep the first meaning of "dunum" which is "fort" or "fortress"
- You consider that the origin of enclosure is weak
- You would like to find an enclosure on the Donon (as the meaning has evolved, there is no need to have an enclosure on the Donon; it simply means "high")

Aberdeen
21-08-14, 22:18
I think that it's a mistake for those of us who are not linguists to try to parse out the origins and original meanings of words. For example, the words "baked" and "naked" have almost the exact same spelling with only one letter of difference, so one might conclude that the two words must be closely related in meaning and/or origin. However, the two words are pronounced differently, have very different meanings and don't in fact appear to come from the same root word.

FrankN
22-08-14, 00:20
I don't understand why:
- You don't keep the first meaning of "dunum" which is "fort" or "fortress"

There is already a Celtic word for fortress - briga. Why have two words for the same construction? This only makes sense if functions are different, e.g. one is a hidden refuge (briga), the other one a well-accessible meeting place (dunum).
I don't see any etymologic relation of dunum to common IE roots signifying strength, shelter, guarding or whatever else one would usually associate with a fortress.
Look at the aerial photograph of Tarodunum that I have posted above - you see two areas there. The large one is the fortification, but it wasn't finished and settled, as something (probably Ceasar on the Rhine) lead the people to give up the project. The smaller part is where an actual Celtic settlement has been excavated. This smaller part is in-between the villages of Zarten and Kirchzarten, so it is fair to assume it represents the original, unfortified Tarodunum. On the large, unfinished fortification part, there are two more settlements: Burg, and Burg am Wald. It is amazing that toponyms have preserved more than 2,000 years of settlement history. And they tell us that there is a difference between a dunum and a fort (Burg).


- You consider that the origin of enclosure is weak

As above - where is the etymologic link to separation? Something like English castle/ cloister/ enclosure, Latin claudere, German Schloss / Kloster. French chateau. Or Latin hortus, Englsh garden (plus herd/ herding / hoard), French dehors.
The postulated analogy to German "Zaun" doesn't work, at lest not directly. A Zaun is a fence, a feeble, temporary installation. A permanent enclosure is a "ham" (>Latin campus), as in Hamburg, Hamborn, Birmingham, Nottingham etc. Celtic had this term as well, as evidenced by Cham/ Bavaria and Cham / Switzerland (also Chambery?).
Via "thing", Zaun and dunum can be linked. Open thing sites were, for the duration of the convention, temporarily fenced with wattled hazel rods. To me, this is the only way how you can get "zäunen" (wattling), "Tau" (rope) , and "Zaun" (fence) etymologically connected to dunum.


- You would like to find an enclosure on the Donon (as the meaning has evolved, there is no need to have an enclosure on the Donon; it simply means "high")

My Gaelic-English online dictionary has "ard" for high. If there ever had been a Continental Celtic adjective dun/don with the meaning of high, it apparently didn't make it across the Irish Sea - but dunum arrived there.
The Donon isn't the highest mountain in the Vosges. But it is a very central one that, if I understood the French Wikipedia article correctly, served for reunions of the three Celtic tribes in the area. Thus, I would expect its name to reflect this assembly / celebration function. Let's see - which Gaelic word might fit here? Maybe dèinaim - banquet?

http://breis.focloir.ie/en/eid/d%C3%A9anaim

Diviacus
23-08-14, 12:51
There is already a Celtic word for fortress - briga. Why have two words for the same construction? This only makes sense if functions are different, e.g. one is a hidden refuge (briga), the other one a well-accessible meeting place (dunum).
I don't see any etymologic relation of dunum to common IE roots signifying strength, shelter, guarding or whatever else one would usually associate with a fortress.
Look at the aerial photograph of Tarodunum that I have posted above - you see two areas there. The large one is the fortification, but it wasn't finished and settled, as something (probably Ceasar on the Rhine) lead the people to give up the project. The smaller part is where an actual Celtic settlement has been excavated. This smaller part is in-between the villages of Zarten and Kirchzarten, so it is fair to assume it represents the original, unfortified Tarodunum. On the large, unfinished fortification part, there are two more settlements: Burg, and Burg am Wald. It is amazing that toponyms have preserved more than 2,000 years of settlement history. And they tell us that there is a difference between a dunum and a fort (Burg).

1. As 100% of the authors translate dunum by fortresss, I don't see any reason not to rely on this explanation. The fact that there are 2 words for the same meaning is common in every language.
2. There is an explanation given by B.Sergent already quoted.
3. As "Burg" is very common in Germanic languages, the use of Burg for these two settlements don't bother me.

Personally, I don't have any doubt about dunum meaning.
However, I will ask Pierre-Yves Lambert (one of the 2 French experts with X.Delamarre in Celtic languages) to have his point of view.

Diviacus
20-10-14, 19:36
In « Noms de lieux celtiques de l’Europe ancienne », X.Delamarre indicates :

dunum = * dūnon ‘oppidum, ville enclose’ (oppidum, enclosed city)
It obviously means a fortified place, an enclosed place which is not necessarily on a hill, but most often. The word leads to Irish dún and Welsh din, with the same meaning. It’s the original oppidum, enclosed with a palisade, which finally lead to mean a fortified place, then a fortified city. It became soon tūno in Germanic, and has kept its original meaning in German. Its continuators, der Zaun, means ‘enclosure’, but in English town means ‘city’.
-brigā ‘colline, fortin’ (hill, fort)
The root is the Indo European *bherģh- high, and the word has also been used for ‘mountain’. By metonymy, the word means a fortification settled on the top.

MOESAN
24-10-14, 22:58
http://phoenicia.org/canaancornwall.html

one site that states a Phoenician -irish link

I take lately - this site I know is made by amaible people but who don't have the slightest knowledge of linguistic! the same peoplle, I think, who said PHENICIAN and VENETI was linguistically (so phonetically) linked

Taranis
25-10-14, 00:01
The "enclosure" meaning is etymologically weak, especially in the proposed analogy to German "Zaun". Moreover, an enclosure on the Donon still remains to be found. So, how about this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_(assembly)

German "Zaun" (or /tsaʊn/) is a cognate with English "town" (Proto-Germanic *tūnaz) and a cognate with Celtic *dūno-. The word was borrowed from Celtic into Germany before Grimm's Law occured and shifted accordingly, and then later according to the Upper German consonant shift. The sound shift Proto-Germanic *ū > *aʊ probably happened independently in German and English.

So in my opinion "fortified settlement" as the original meaning is the most probable one (the fact that the German word means "fence" actually speaks for that).

I don't think its related with "thing" (German "Ding"), because there was a /θ/ sound in Proto-Germanic (still in English "thing"), shifted to *d in German, which in turn corresponds to *t in Celtic (and most other Indo-European branches).

As for the earliest mentioning of the term, the earliest I'm actually aware of is Julius Caesar's commentaries on the Gallic War (circa 50 BC), as he mentions several towns ending with "-dunum" located in Gaul.


I take lately - this site I know is made by amaible people but who don't have the slightest knowledge of linguistic! the same peoplle, I think, who said PHENICIAN and VENETI was linguistically (so phonetically) linked

Good one! :laughing:

They do realize that the term "Phoenician" is an exonym and that the Phoenicians refered to themselves as "Cana'anites"...?

MOESAN
26-10-14, 16:45
Alright - Donon and Dünsberg disfavour a "dina" (water) root, Uxellodunum and Lukodunom speak against a "dune" (hill) root. The "enclosure" meaning is etymologically weak, especially in the proposed analogy to German "Zaun". Moreover, an enclosure on the Donon still remains to be found. So, how about this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_(assembly)


I have noted the Gaelic verb déan, which means to do, but also to attain, to undertake, to make, to render, to convert, to celebrate. The derived "déanaim" means banquet. Thus, a dunum could have been the central assembly place, originally for decision-making, jurisdiction and celebration, later on also (often primarily) serving trade. Of course, such a place would have a special deity / saint (Spanish: Don). The ritual should have included donations, which would also have been expected from by-passing foreigners, and could ultimately have turned into collection of duties (French: douane).


sorry, no offense, but is this very thread you seem to me running after very complicated explanations
yes, and sure, the 'enclosure' meaning is the most sensible origin of these words in 'dun', 'tun' (gaelic 'dunadh' "to shut / dunta "shut" - and then the meanings of fortified villages and so on, high placed or not...
it seems constant that the vowel is a back one in germanic and celtic, not a front one (as in 'dean' by example) -germanic could be from celtic...
I didn't find evident common roots with common meaning in other I-Ean languages

Taranis
26-10-14, 20:11
It is interesting you mention Sidon. Ever thought of Tyre:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

Tyre was made on an Island off shore. Tir in Gaelic means land. Could it be reclaimed land in this case? And if so what would that tell us about Phoenicians?

My apologies for seeing this only now.

The name "Tyr" definitely has nothing with Irish "tir": the latter is derived from the Indo-European root *ters- "dry" (the English word "thirst" and the German word "Durst" are derived from this, as is Latin "Terra", from Proto-Italic *terza).

The name "Tyr" is the Greek rendering (the "y" in the name should be a dead give away here), from "Τυρος" (Tyros). The modern Arabic name is "Ṣūr" and the biblical name is צור (*ts-w-r), relating to a semitic word for "rock" or "pebble".