PDA

View Full Version : Alans(with Catacomb burial ritual) from River Don 8-th century 6 had haplogroup G2



Robert6
12-08-14, 23:51
Alans(with Catacomb burial ritual) from River Don 8-th century 6 had haplogroup G2
https://www.academia.edu/7061155/_._._._._._._._._._._._._2014._._312-315

I did my best with translation of the part of the text, but I don't know if it is good enough

For the analysis of Alanic paleo-DNA at the level of
haplogroups (laboratory work was performed by VV
Ilyinsky)
were selected 12 samples of human teeth and bone fragments from the catacomb burials.
(Ten from the excavations of VS Aksenov in Verhnesaltovskiy IV burial and two from the excavations of VA Sarapulkin in Dmitrov burial).

For the investigation of the male line was carried out by analysis of 23 microsatellite loci (STR) of Y-chromosome of man. Definition of haplogroup of the female line was carried out by the study of mtDNA hypervariable regions. The task was to identify the nucleotide sequences of the hypervariable regions HVS-1, HVS-2, HVS -3 of mtDNA with subsequent determination of haplogroup of individuals and predictions of migration routes. As a result, in the 6 samples was found haplogroup G2 and 6 samples - mtDNA haplogroup I.

In the North Caucasus, the territory of which
is related to its origin the Don Alans, G2 occur in the form of two branches G2a1 (among Ossetians) and G2a3 (among Adyghes). G2a little occurs in Karachai and Balkars, as well as the Ingush and Chechens.
Solving the problem of Alanian DNA is closely associated with the study of the role of Alans and Caucasian substrate in the formation of the Ossetian people, now takes on a more distinct shape. We got a first and very promising data on Alanian DNA of Khasar period.
Required deep research in the field of paleo-DNA at the level of subclades not only of Alanic material
of Khazar period and pre-Khasar period, but the study of paleo-DNA of carriers of Beneath-barrow(UnderKurgan type, Khazarian type) and of Yamna(Pit type, Bulgar type)
burial rituals in the teritory of Khazar Khaganat, as well as simultaneous and preceding to them of Central-Caucasian substratum, that practiced burials in stone boxes, in underground and in above-ground tombs. Then it will become clear whether the male G2 of the Don Alans is the heritage
of Sarmats, of Kangiuys, or a contribution of the Central Caucasian substratum.

Robert6
13-08-14, 00:25
And 6 had mtdna I

LeBrok
13-08-14, 07:16
Google translation:
3) To analyze Alanian paleo-DNA haplogroup level (laboratory work performed Iljinsky VV) were selected, 12 samples of human teeth and bone fragments from the catacomb burial. Investigation of the male line was carried out by analyzing 23 microsatellite loci (STR) Y-chromosome of man. Definition haplogroup female line was carried out the study of mtDNA hypervariable regions. The task was to identify the nucleotide sequences of the hypervariable regions HVS-1, HVS-2, HVS -3 mtDNA haplogroup, with subsequent determination of individuals and the predictions of migration routes. As a result, in the 6 samples was found haplogroup G2 and 6 samples - female haplogroup I.
Scientists note that the North Caucasus, which are connected with the territory of their origin Don Alans, G2 occur as the two branches of the Ossetians (G2a1) and the Circassians (G2a3). G2a little occurs in Karachai and Balkars, as well as the Ingush and Chechens. The researchers write, and I quote: "The issue is Alan DNA is closely associated with the study of the role of Alan and Caucasian substrate in the formation of the Ossetian people, now takes on a more distinct shape. We got a first and very promising data about Alan DNA Khazar time." It is further noted that the need for a thorough research in the field paleoDNK level subclades not only Alanian material Khazar and predhazarskogo time, but the study of paleo-DNA carriers barrows and burial rites yamnogo on the territory of the Khazar Khanate as well as simultaneous and preceding them centrally-Caucasian substratum, practiced burial in stone boxes, underground and above-ground tombs. Then it can be ascertained whether the men G2 the Don Alan Sarmatian heritage, kangyuytsev or a contribution to the Central Caucasian substratum ..

LeBrok
13-08-14, 07:17
How old are the corpses?

Robert6
13-08-14, 08:54
It is 8-th century from Don - Seversky Donets regions

Robert6
14-08-14, 18:57
If someone couldn't open the pdf file
http://s002.radikal.ru/i200/1408/23/6847c3362248.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fs002.radikal.ru%2Fi200%2F1408 %2F23%2F6847c3362248.jpg&h=VAQGQ0ZEL)

Robert6
15-08-14, 16:10
I did my best with translation of the part of the text, but I don't know if it is good enough

For the analysis of Alanic paleo-DNA at the level of
haplogroups (laboratory work was performed by VV
Ilyinsky)
were selected 12 samples of human teeth and bone fragments from the catacomb burials.
(Ten from the excavations of VS Aksenov in Verhnesaltovskiy IV burial and two from the excavations of VA Sarapulkin in Dmitrov burial).

For the investigation of the male line was carried out by analysis of 23 microsatellite loci (STR) of Y-chromosome of man. Definition of haplogroup of the female line was carried out by the study of mtDNA hypervariable regions. The task was to identify the nucleotide sequences of the hypervariable regions HVS-1, HVS-2, HVS -3 of mtDNA with subsequent determination of haplogroup of individuals and predictions of migration routes. As a result, in the 6 samples was found haplogroup G2 and 6 samples - mtDNA haplogroup I.

In the North Caucasus, the territory of which
is related to its origin the Don Alans, G2 occur in the form of two branches G2a1 (among Ossetians) and G2a3 (among Adyghes). G2a little occurs in Karachai and Balkars, as well as the Ingush and Chechens.
Solving the problem of Alanian DNA is closely associated with the study of the role of Alans and Caucasian substrate in the formation of the Ossetian people, now takes on a more distinct shape. We got a first and very promising data on Alanian DNA of Khasar period.
Required deep research in the field of paleo-DNA at the level of subclades not only of Alanic material
of Khazar period and pre-Khasar period, but the study of paleo-DNA of carriers of Beneath-barrow(UnderKurgan type, Khazarian type) and of Yamna(Pit type, Bulgar type)
burial rituals in the teritory of Khazar Khaganat, as well as simultaneous and preceding to them of Central-Caucasian substratum, that practiced burials in stone boxes, in underground and in above-ground tombs. Then it will become clear whether the male G2 of the Don Alans is the heritage
of Sarmats, of Kangiuys, or a contribution of the Central Caucasian substratum.

LeBrok
16-08-14, 04:14
Thanks Robert6. The results are surprisingly uniform. All belonging to same haplogroup G2 and mtDNA I. They must have come from very secluded place in Caucasus. It is interesting how they managed to get Iranaisd (if there is such word) without mixing with other IE haplogroups?
I would prefer if they analyzed DNA to deeper subclades, or autosomal distances. We could be in a position to find their closest cousins in today's populations.
Nevertheless, a great find, thanks.

Robert6
16-08-14, 08:43
But which are IE Haplogroups?

Robert6
17-08-14, 00:20
R1a-Z93 where in South Asia before the proto-Indo-Iranians

http://i023.radikal.ru/1407/59/cd24245b498a.png
Around the Dnieper river, L. Kleijn place the proto-Indo-Aryans
http://www.egyptologie.be/decan_college_43_1984p57_aryans_kleijn.htm
Ukrainians (Hmelnitsk) 0% R1a-Z93 из 179
Ukrainians (Cherkassy) 0% R1a-Z93 из 114
Ukrainians (Belgorod) 0% R1a-Z93 из 56
http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2014/03/major-new-article-on-deep-origins-of-y.html

LeBrok
17-08-14, 02:43
R1a-Z93 where in South Asia before the proto-Indo-Iranians

http://i023.radikal.ru/1407/59/cd24245b498a.png
Around the Dnieper river, L. Kleijn place the proto-Indo-Aryans
http://www.egyptologie.be/decan_college_43_1984p57_aryans_kleijn.htm
Ukrainians (Hmelnitsk) 0% R1a-Z93 из 179
Ukrainians (Cherkassy) 0% R1a-Z93 из 114
Ukrainians (Belgorod) 0% R1a-Z93 из 56
http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2014/03/major-new-article-on-deep-origins-of-y.html

I think Z93 were the proto II, which spread almost 3 thousand years ago in Asia before Alans existed. If Alans spoke Iranian language, lack of Z93 or some R1a and R1b in a mix is very surprising.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29705-Corded-Ware-Iranic-Aryan-split-of-IE

Maciamo
17-08-14, 09:54
Thanks for posting this, Robert6.

Tthe uniformity of the paternal and maternal haplogroups could indicate that all the individuals are related - perhaps 6 brothers.

G2 is not surprising for Alanic people. I hypothesized several years ago that the Alans could have brought some G2a1 lineages into Europe, based on the fact that the Ossetians (descendants of the Kingdom of Alania) carry a lot of G2a1. I have since changed my mind and believe that the original Central Asian Alans were primarily R1a people who also carried haplogroups from various assimilated Central Asian people such as G2a3b1, J2, Q and R1b. The Alans would have mixed with the native G2a1 people when they settled in the central Caucasus.

Since the samples come from the Don region, G2a3b1 is in fact more likely than G2a1, as the Kuban is a hotspot for G2a3b1. Central Asian G2 is also essentially the Indo-European G2a3b1.

Sile
17-08-14, 11:34
Thanks for posting this, Robert6.

Tthe uniformity of the paternal and maternal haplogroups could indicate that all the individuals are related - perhaps 6 brothers.

G2 is not surprising for Alanic people. I hypothesized several years ago that the Alans could have brought some G2a1 lineages into Europe, based on the fact that the Ossetians (descendants of the Kingdom of Alania) carry a lot of G2a1. I have since changed my mind and believe that the original Central Asian Alans were primarily R1a people who also carried haplogroups from various assimilated Central Asian people such as G2a3b1, J2, Q and R1b. The Alans would have mixed with the native G2a1 people when they settled in the central Caucasus.

Since the samples come from the Don region, G2a3b1 is in fact more likely than G2a1, as the Kuban is a hotspot for G2a3b1. Central Asian G2 is also essentially the Indo-European G2a3b1.

http://www.blutspendezurich.ch/Media/File/Publikationen%202013/High%20resolution%20mapping%20of%20Y%20haplogroup% 20G%282%29.pdf

G2a3b1 ( L497 ) is an Austrian marker as per this rootsi paper ..............it is 80% of Austria

Robert6
17-08-14, 18:20
Tthe uniformity of the paternal and maternal haplogroups could indicate that all the individuals are related - perhaps 6 brothers.

They were from two different places
Verhnesaltovsky IV burial of 10 samples (only in 7 out of 10 were found fragments of DNA) detected in four Y-dna G2 and six mtdna I
Dmitrov burial two samples, both had Y-dna G2, with no result for mtdna

Robert6
17-08-14, 18:44
Thanks for posting this, Robert6.

Tthe uniformity of the paternal and maternal haplogroups could indicate that all the individuals are related - perhaps 6 brothers.

G2 is not surprising for Alanic people. I hypothesized several years ago that the Alans could have brought some G2a1 lineages into Europe, based on the fact that the Ossetians (descendants of the Kingdom of Alania) carry a lot of G2a1. I have since changed my mind and believe that the original Central Asian Alans were primarily R1a people who also carried haplogroups from various assimilated Central Asian people such as G2a3b1, J2, Q and R1b. The Alans would have mixed with the native G2a1 people when they settled in the central Caucasus.

Since the samples come from the Don region, G2a3b1 is in fact more likely than G2a1, as the Kuban is a hotspot for G2a3b1. Central Asian G2 is also essentially the Indo-European G2a3b1.
But there is no Central Asian subclades of haplogroup R1a in North Caucasus.
And North Caucasian R1a subclades Z2122+ , Z2123+, Y23592+ isn't yet found in Central Asia.

And you can find G2a1a1 Z6638 in Central Asia very close to Caucasian G2a1a1


221740 Khalilov Abdulkhalil Uzoqbek 19c. Uzbekistan G-M201 14 22 15 10 15-16 10 12 12 12 10 29 17 9-9 10 11 25 16 21 30 13-13-14-14 10 10 20-21 15 15 16 17 36-37 11 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 12 9 12 21-22 14 10 12 12 15 8 14 24 22 16 13 11 14 10 11 11 13
320827 Ravshanov Qirq Adilbay 1850 from Trukish tribe named Qirq Uzbekistan G-M201 14 22 15 10 15-17 11 12 11 12 10 29 17 9-9 11 11 24 16 21 30 12-13-14-14 10 10 20-21 16 15 15 20 36-38 11 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 12 10 12 21-22 14 10 12 12 15 8 13 22 22 16 14 11 13 10 11 11 13
184836 Ruslan Uzbekistan G-M201 14 22 15 10 16-17 11 12 12 12 10 28 16 9-9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13-13-14-15 10 10 20-21 15 15 15 19 38-44 11 11 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 12 11 12 21-22 14 10 12 12 16 8 13 21 22 17 13 11 13 10 11 11 13

Robert6
17-08-14, 19:11
While R1a in Georgia(South Caucasus) mostly are relict unrelated branches of paragroup Z93+ and Z94-
So paragroup R1a-Z93*(R1a-Z93* Z93+ and Z94- but not tested for Z95) is possibly autochthonous to South Caucasus.

Silesian
17-08-14, 22:15
Thanks for posting this, Robert6.

Tthe uniformity of the paternal and maternal haplogroups could indicate that all the individuals are related - perhaps 6 brothers.

G2 is not surprising for Alanic people. I hypothesized several years ago that the Alans could have brought some G2a1 lineages into Europe, based on the fact that the Ossetians (descendants of the Kingdom of Alania) carry a lot of G2a1. I have since changed my mind and believe that the original Central Asian Alans were primarily R1a people who also carried haplogroups from various assimilated Central Asian people such as G2a3b1, J2, Q and R1b. The Alans would have mixed with the native G2a1 people when they settled in the central Caucasus.

Since the samples come from the Don region, G2a3b1 is in fact more likely than G2a1, as the Kuban is a hotspot for G2a3b1. Central Asian G2 is also essentially the Indo-European G2a3b1.

R1b-2103 branches are found in Osset/Alan region-R1b-L277+,R1b-L584+, and R1b-7822+. 1 Digor Ossetian[R1b1a2a2 Z2105+ CTS9219+] has already tested positive.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=yresults

Goga
18-08-14, 01:30
I have since changed my mind and believe that the original Central Asian Alans were primarily R1a people who also carried haplogroups from various assimilated Central Asian people such as G2a3b1, J2, Q and R1b. The Alans would have mixed with the native G2a1 people when they settled in the central Caucasus.If Alans had even some R1a in them, that (East Iranized) R1a would also be NATIVE to Central Asia. VERY different to the European types.

Robert6
18-08-14, 01:32
R1b-2103 branches are found in Osset/Alan region-R1b-L277+,R1b-L584+, and R1b-7822+. 1 Digor Ossetian[R1b1a2a2 Z2105+ CTS9219+] has already tested positive.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=yresults
Ossetian subclade of R1b1a2a2 CTS9219+, connected to Avars.
In South Ossetia
Bibil(Bibilyaur Bibilti) and some others "are the best of Avars" according to Georgian chronicles
Bibilti is R1b1a2a2 CTS9219.


In North Ossetia
Badil (Badilyata) was Madzhar or Avar or came from the city named Madzhar
Kubatiev is Badilyat, and R1b1a2a2 CTS9219.

Robert6
18-08-14, 01:36
If Alans had even some R1a in them, that (East Iranized) R1a would also be NATIVE to Central Asia. VERY different to the European types.
And yet there is no R1a of Central Asian subclade in North Caucasus

Goga
18-08-14, 01:46
And yet there is no R1a of Central Asian subclade in North CaucasusWhat do you mean? I'm sure there's some R1a-Z93 (native Central Asian type, and not the native West Asian Z93 type) among the Ossetians. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=ysnp

Alan
18-08-14, 02:02
Just another proof that Ossetians are not "assimilated" Caucasic Speakers and also a proof that though R1a was and is one of the most prominent Haplogroups of Iranic speakers, it is not the only one.

And Ialways said that Alanians was that Sarmatian tribe which was local to the region. Also Ossetians have some R1b and I too.

Silesian
18-08-14, 03:14
Ossetian subclade of R1b1a2a2 CTS9219+, connected to Avars.
In South Ossetia
Bibil(Bibilyaur Bibilti) and some others "are the best of Avars" according to Georgian chronicles
Bibilti is R1b1a2a2 CTS9219.


In North Ossetia
Badil (Badilyata) was Madzhar or Avar or came from the city named Madzhar
Kubatiev is Badilyat, and R1b1a2a2 CTS9219.

R1b1a2a2 CTS9219 is showing up in Poland,Czech/Russia/Ukraine, and Bulgaria[Pomak] and just recent in Sicily (Arberesh) Italy Albanian. R1b-CTS7822+ is positive in Armenian who could also be R1b-CTS9219+.
b3a. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+ and CTS9219+
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=yresults

Maciamo
18-08-14, 07:48
But there is no Central Asian subclades of haplogroup R1a in North Caucasus.
And North Caucasian R1a subclades Z2122+ , Z2123+, Y23592+ isn't yet found in Central Asia.

And you can find G2a1a1 Z6638 in Central Asia very close to Caucasian G2a1a1


221740 Khalilov Abdulkhalil Uzoqbek 19c. Uzbekistan G-M201 14 22 15 10 15-16 10 12 12 12 10 29 17 9-9 10 11 25 16 21 30 13-13-14-14 10 10 20-21 15 15 16 17 36-37 11 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 12 9 12 21-22 14 10 12 12 15 8 14 24 22 16 13 11 14 10 11 11 13
320827 Ravshanov Qirq Adilbay 1850 from Trukish tribe named Qirq Uzbekistan G-M201 14 22 15 10 15-17 11 12 11 12 10 29 17 9-9 11 11 24 16 21 30 12-13-14-14 10 10 20-21 16 15 15 20 36-38 11 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 12 10 12 21-22 14 10 12 12 15 8 13 22 22 16 14 11 13 10 11 11 13
184836 Ruslan Uzbekistan G-M201 14 22 15 10 16-17 11 12 12 12 10 28 16 9-9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13-13-14-15 10 10 20-21 15 15 15 19 38-44 11 11 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 12 11 12 21-22 14 10 12 12 16 8 13 21 22 17 13 11 13 10 11 11 13

I didn't know about these Central Asian G2a1a1. So it's not impossible that the original Alans were G2a1a1. We need more data to find out.

Maciamo
18-08-14, 07:50
While R1a in Georgia(South Caucasus) mostly are relict unrelated branches of paragroup Z93+ and Z94-
So paragroup R1a-Z93*(R1a-Z93* Z93+ and Z94- but not tested for Z95) is possibly autochthonous to South Caucasus.

Or rather an Early Bronze Age (Yamna, Maykop) steppe people migration across the Caucasus.

Goga
18-08-14, 13:23
Z93* is NOT native to the Steppes. But rather native to West Asia and some of it native to Central Asia. Z93* is much more likely from the Iranian Plateau, since the Maykop people came from the Iranian Plateau and settled down in the southern and central parts in the Caucasus mountains. Later on the migrated up to north, into the Yamna Horizon.

Silesian
18-08-14, 14:15
Z93* is NOT native to the Steppes. But rather native to West Asia and some of it native to Central Asia. Z93* is much more likely from the Iranian Plateau, since the Maykop people came from the Iranian Plateau and settled down in the southern and central parts in the Caucasus mountains. Later on the migrated up to north, into the Yamna Horizon.





Are any R1a from Iranian Plateau found in Jasz people living in the region known as "Jászság (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1szs%C3%A1g)"
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jaszsag/default.aspx?section=yresults

Aberdeen
18-08-14, 14:24
Z93* is NOT native to the Steppes. But rather native to West Asia and some of it native to Central Asia. Z93* is much more likely from the Iranian Plateau, since the Maykop people came from the Iranian Plateau and settled down in the southern and central parts in the Caucasus mountains. Later on the migrated up to north, into the Yamna Horizon.

So, how do you explain the near perfect split between Z-283 in Europe and Z93 in Asia, with the dividing line being right where archeology would suggest the Indo-European homeland is? IMO, the Iranian Plateau was the location of the first expansion of IE folk to the east.

Goga
18-08-14, 14:26
So, how do you explain the near perfect split between Z-283 in Europe and Z93 in Asia, with the dividing line being right where archeology would suggest the Indo-European homeland is? IMO, the Iranian Plateau was the location of the first expansion of IE folk to the east.http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oibl2LJE9p0/UzcexFkeZ0I/AAAAAAAACd0/duzTuAcI-P4/s1600/R1a+spread.jpeg

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.tr/2014/03/y-dna-r1a-spread-from-iran.html

Goga
18-08-14, 14:30
So, how do you explain the near perfect split between Z-283 in Europe and Z93 in Asia, with the dividing line being right where archeology would suggest the Indo-European homeland is?Who's saying that only R1a has something to do with PIE homeland? What about R1b, J2, G2 etc.? there's still no proof that PROTO Indo-Europeans were exclusively R1a or R1a at the first place. Also, I believe that R1a* is from West Asia / Iranian Plateau also, because the native oldest types of R1a are in West Asia.

Aberdeen
18-08-14, 14:33
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oibl2LJE9p0/UzcexFkeZ0I/AAAAAAAACd0/duzTuAcI-P4/s1600/R1a+spread.jpeg

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.tr/2014/03/y-dna-r1a-spread-from-iran.html

A person can draw imaginary directional arrows wherever they want. That doesn't change the fact that if you draw a line north from Crimea, pretty much all the Z93 is on one side and pretty much all the Z282 is on the other side. Older types of subclades do indicate that R1a probably originated in Asia, but that doesn't change anything about where the Z93/Z282 split appears to have occurred a few thousand years ago.

Goga
18-08-14, 14:42
First of all Z292 is absolutely not the same as Z93. Is African R1b the same as the European R1b, or West Asian R1b? No. Ancient people who were Z93 were absolutely not the same as ancient Z293 people. They belonged to a different ethnicity/civilization. Also, there is no evidence that Z93/Z292 occurred in the European Parts of the Steppes. East European R1a is NOT diverse and almost exclusively Z292. So that means that Z292 migrated into the East European Steppes after the split. Later on R1a Z292 mixed with the local European populations, like I2a, I2b, I1, N1c1 etc. and different European mtDNA. So R1a Z292 people who migrated into Europe mixed to much with the locals, and became very different people from the original R1a*. Original R1b* & R1a* were most likely very close to the 'Gedrosia' auDNA, because R1a* evolved somewhere around the Iranian Plateau / Zagros mountains.

Silesian
18-08-14, 15:01
Google translation:
..........It is further noted that the need for a thorough research in the field paleoDNK level subclades not only Alanian material Khazar and predhazarskogo time, but the study of paleo-DNA carriers barrows and burial rites yamnogo on the territory of the Khazar Khanate as well as simultaneous and preceding them centrally-Caucasian substratum, practiced burial in stone boxes, underground and above-ground tombs. Then it can be ascertained whether the men G2 the Don Alan Sarmatian heritage, kangyuytsev or a contribution to the Central Caucasian substratum ..

Don't Jewish men also carry G2a1?
The Ashkenazi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi) Jewish G2a1a men......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a1_%28Y-DNA%29

Aberdeen
18-08-14, 15:09
First of all Z292 is absolutely not the same as Z93. Is African R1b the same as the European R1b, or West Asian R1b? No. Ancient people who were Z93 were absolutely not the same as ancient Z293 people. They belonged to a different ethnicity/civilization. Also, there is no evidence that Z93/Z292 occurred in the European Parts of the Steppes. East European R1a is NOT diverse and almost exclusively Z292. So that means that Z292 migrated into the East European Steppes after the split. Later on R1a Z292 mixed with the local European populations, like I2a, I2b, I1, N1c1 etc. and different European mtDNA. So R1a Z292 people who migrated into Europe mixed to much with the locals, and became very different people from the original R1a*. Original R1b* & R1a* were most likely very close to the 'Gedrosia' auDNA, because R1a* evolved somewhere around the Iranian Plateau / Zagros mountains.

I think you mean A282, not Z292. And, since Z282 is R1a1a1b1 and Z93 is R1a1a1b2, it appears that they're very closely related. Estimates I've read for the time of the division would seem to match the estimated time of the first split in the presumed IE population. And I really don't follow your logic - if eastern Europe R1a is almost all Z282 and western Asia is almost all Z93, how does that "prove" anything other than what I said about the dividing line being right around the presumed IE homeland? And the probable location of the origins of R1a don't tell us anything about where R1a1a1b was located geographically when it split, as that happened many thousands of years after R1a split from R1*. I'm certainly no geneticist, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding this, but everything the experts tell us about the subclades of R1a appears to me to suggest that there was a population on the steppes a few thousand years ago that split in half, with one group going east and another going west.

Goga
18-08-14, 15:28
I think you mean A282, not Z292. And, since Z282 is R1a1a1b1 and Z93 is R1a1a1b2, it appears that they're very closely related. Estimates I've read for the time of the division would seem to match the estimated time of the first split in the presumed IE population. And I really don't follow your logic - if eastern Europe R1a is almost all Z282 and western Asia is almost all Z93, how does that "prove" anything other than what I said about the dividing line being right around the presumed IE homeland? And the probable location of the origins of R1a don't tell us anything about where R1a1a1b was located geographically when it split, as that happened many thousands of years after R1a split from R1*. I'm certainly no geneticist, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding this, but everything the experts tell us about the subclades of R1a appears to me to suggest that there was a population on the steppes a few thousand years ago that split in half, with one group going east and another going west.Where is the presumed IE homeland? If you mean Yamna Horizon, than there is NO evidence at all that Z292 / Z93 spilt occurred there. Why? Because at this moment no ancient subclade of R1a and ancestral to Z282 AND Z93 has been found there. R1a in Western Asia is VERY diverse. The ancestral R1a both to Z282 and Z93 has been found in West Asia / Iranian Plateau. Also, just take me as an example. I'm neither Z282 nor Z93. But this is OT because this topic is about the East Iranic ALANIANS and their G2a1 Y-DNA haplogroup. Another proof that ancient speakers of East Iranic language belonged also at least to G2a1.

Robert6
18-08-14, 15:58
What do you mean? I'm sure there's some R1a-Z93 (native Central Asian type, and not the native West Asian Z93 type) among the Ossetians. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=ysnp
I mean that relatively old(more than 4500 years old each clade) subclades R1a Z2123, R1a Z2122 that are in North Caucasus, these subclades did not yet found in Central Asia.

Robert6
18-08-14, 16:10
Are any R1a from Iranian Plateau found in Jasz people living in the region known as "Jászság (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1szs%C3%A1g)"
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jaszsag/default.aspx?section=yresults

The Jaszsag project have only one close match with eastern territories like the Iran, for now is that one haplotype
277016 Koza Pusztamonostor, Hungary Hungary G-M201 13 22 15 10 13-14 11 12 11 12 11 29 18 9-9 11 11 23 16 21 30 13-13-14-14



Close to
203133 Isadiar Esma'il Shah-bodaghlu ca. 1844-1914 Unknown Origin G-M201 13 22 15 10 13-14 11 12 11 12 11 29 18 9-9 11 11 23 16 20 30 13-13-14-14 10 11 20-20 16 13 20 19 37-38 11 10


Shah Bodaghlu (Persian: شاه بداغلو‎, also Romanized as Shāh Bodāghlū) is a village in Bastamlu Rural District, in the Central District of Khoda Afarin County, East Azerbaijan Province, Iran. At the 2006 census, its population was 91, in 21 families.

Goga
18-08-14, 16:25
I mean that relatively old(more than 4500 years old each clade) subclades R1a Z2123, R1a Z2122 that are in North Caucasus, these subclades did not yet found in Central Asia.Not sure. because R1a Z2123 & R1a Z2122 is evolved from Z94 (or more precisely from Z2124). And in turn Z94 evolved out of Z93. And you can find Z94 everywhere from the Jews who live(d) in the Near East to Kirgizstan.

Robert6
18-08-14, 16:41
Not sure. because R1a Z2123 & R1a Z2122 is evolved from Z94 (or more precisely from Z2124). And in turn Z94 evolved out of Z93. And you can find Z94 everywhere from the Jews who live(d) in the Near East to Kirgizstan.
The thing that I wanna say, is that R1a-Z2122 and R1a-Z2123 didn't came to North Caucasus and to western Urals from Cenral Asia(beacause there are no R1a-Z2122 and R1a-Z2123 in Cenral Asia), but most posibly they came from western Iran from Zagros region in the time of Bronze age

Alan
19-08-14, 01:12
So, how do you explain the near perfect split between Z-283 in Europe and Z93 in Asia, with the dividing line being right where archeology would suggest the Indo-European homeland is? IMO, the Iranian Plateau was the location of the first expansion of IE folk to the east.

To be fair Aberdeen z93 and z283 d various other clades meet right between Iran, Kurdistan and Balochistan.

Sile
19-08-14, 02:49
Don't Jewish men also carry G2a1?
The Ashkenazi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi) Jewish G2a1a men......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a1_%28Y-DNA%29

which subclade ?

jewish is only ~4000 years old...the marker in question is thousands upon thousands of years older than this

Sile
19-08-14, 03:00
To be fair Aberdeen z93 and z283 splits right in Western Asia.

there is only 400 years difference between the 2 ...insignificant

Alan
19-08-14, 05:11
there is only 400 years difference between the 2 ...insignificant

True but all major subclades meet in the area between Kurdistan, Iran and Balochistan.

Aberdeen
19-08-14, 06:16
True but all major subclades meet in the area between Kurdistan, Iran and Balochistan.

The dividing line is actually further west and north. You can see maps of the two subclades here.

http://thebigone.stanford.edu/papers/Underhill_phylogenetic_March-2014.pdf

Basically, Russia and points west are Z282 and the Stans, Iran, etc. are Z93, although Z282 slants further east as you go north and Z93 slants further west as you go south. The boundary between the two subclades runs through western Kazakhstan but goes further east as you go north and goes further west as you go south. IMO, that north to east and south to west slant can be accounted for by Russian colonization in Siberia and Turkish colonization of the moslem world during historical times.

Alan
19-08-14, 15:50
But doesn't exactly the same study come to the conclusion that every major subclade of R1a* is found in Western Asia and the most diversity is in the Region between Balochistan, Iran and Kurdistan?

Sile
19-08-14, 20:03
But doesn't exactly the same study come to the conclusion that every major subclade of R1a* is found in Western Asia and the most diversity is in the Region between Balochistan, Iran and Kurdistan?

According to Karafet, R-M207 of which there is ~10% has origins in indonesia/malaysia ...........is this a "major" marker?

Alan
19-08-14, 21:47
According to Karafet, R-M207 of which there is ~10% has origins in indonesia/malaysia ...........is this a "major" marker?

R-m207 is found in South_Central and West Asia as well if I am not mistaken. I have heard that Haplogroup P* has probably it's origin in Southeast Asia or East India but I haven't heard of any theory that R* originated there too.

Robert6
27-08-14, 19:50
There are new results for Alanian mtdna from Verkhne-Saltovskiy burials.
U* U2 U5 D K and H.

Kardu
28-08-14, 15:34
Also Ossetians have some R1b and I too.

YDNA I, namely I2c among Ossetians is most probably of Armenian (and consequently Balkan) origin. According to Tagauri clan legends to which the tested person belongs, their forefather was an exiled Armenian nobleman/royal. Armenian chronicles also validate this story.

gyms
28-08-14, 16:10
YDNA I, namely I2c among Ossetians is most probably of Armenian (and consequently Balkan) origin. According to Tagauri clan legends to which the tested person belongs, their forefather was an exiled Armenian nobleman/royal. Armenian chronicles also validate this story.
There is no I2c in the Balkan.
Ossetian I is I2a not c.

Kardu
28-08-14, 18:01
There is no I2c in the Balkan.
Ossetian I is I2a not c.

I2c of Caucasus/Anatolia originated in Balkans.
Ossetian I2c - Mamsurov and Salbiev https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

Where did you come with I2a among Ossetians? link plz

sparkey
28-08-14, 18:37
There is no I2c in the Balkan.
Ossetian I is I2a not c.

There isn't much I2c in the Balkans nowadays, but I imagine there was once at least a reasonable amount of at least I2c PF3881- (the branch that is present in West Asia). This seems to be reflected by its ~5% levels in Crete. (Although admittedly STRs from Crete are in short supply, and it's possible that theirs could reflect a founder effect, possibly from a period as late as the Republic of Venice period--hm.)

gyms
28-08-14, 22:49
There isn't much I2c in the Balkans nowadays, but I imagine there was once at least a reasonable amount of at least I2c PF3881- (the branch that is present in West Asia). This seems to be reflected by its ~5% levels in Crete. (Although admittedly STRs from Crete are in short supply, and it's possible that theirs could reflect a founder effect, possibly from a period as late as the Republic of Venice period--hm.)
How much I2c is in the Balkans? Is there anny I2a and I2c aDNA from Balkans?You are obsessed with Balkans.Is the 10% I2a in Kara Nogays from Balkans?

sparkey
28-08-14, 23:02
How much I2c is in the Balkans?

I2c ranges from 0% to the 1-5% range (usually closer to 1%) depending on the population in the Balkans. I tried to map it out before here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26803-I2c-frequency-and-diversity-maps), although admittedly that project could use an update, and I was never able to completely separate I2c from I2b-L415.


Is there anny I2a and I2c aDNA from Balkans?

No, there's not any ancient Y-DNA from the Balkans to speak of really.


You are obsessed with Balkans.

Not particularly. I like slivovitz though, yum.


Is the 10% I2a in Kara Nogays from Balkans?

I would assume that it has a common source with Russian I2a, but I haven't studied it closely.

Robert6
28-08-14, 23:08
No, there's not any ancient Y-DNA from the Balkans to speak of really.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/9995363812/permalink/10152463355698813/
Neolithic Starčevo(Balkanian Neolithic) have G2a G2a2b I2a1 and F*
Andrew Millard:
"Roy the slides were moving pretty quickly so my notes are incomplete. I don't think there were Mesolithic Gs. For the 7 Starcevo samples I only got as far as noting F* G2a G2a2b I2a1 before things moved on. There were others. There is a paper in press in Proceedings of the British Academy vol.198."

+

From Andrew Millard
International Society of Genetic Genealogy (ISOGG)
43 mins · Edited ·
I'm at the International Symposium on Biomolecular Archaeology and I thought some here would like summaries of the human DNA papers (abstracts with author details are available athttps://ipna.unibas.ch/archgen/isba14/) .
Maria Spyrou presented on the 8th-10th century AD site of Venosa in southern Italy. They recovered 22 full mitogenomes representing 17 haplogroups. This is remarkably diverse, but not statistically different from modern populations from Europe, N Africa & the Near East except Algeria, Basque & Saudi Arabia. Conclusion: today's European mitochondrial diversity dates back to at least the 8th century.
Anna Szécsényi-Nagy presented data from 9 Y chromosomal samples (25 SNPs defiing major haplogroups) and 84 mitochondrial HVS-I DNA profiles from Mesolithic, Neolithic Starčevo and LBK sites (7-6th millennium BC) from Hungary and Croatia. For mtDNA the Neolithic haplogroup frequencies differ from northern European hunter gather-populations but they are similar in the spread to the northern, slightly later Linear Band Keramik sites, with slight differences in frequencies. The Y-chromosome data showed a high frequency of haplogroup G, and closest affinity to Caucasus & Sardinians in modern populations.
Helena Malmstrom reported mtDNA HVS-I sequences from Funnel Beaker (TRB) & Pitted Ware Cultures. The PWC hunter-gatheres differ in haplogroup frequency from farmers but are similar to Mesolithic huntergatherers elsewhere in Europe. The TRB farmers are similar to central European LBK farmers, but both differ from Iberian farmers. Conclusion: migration is part of Neolithisation
Karonla Kirsanow presented on the origins of depigmented skin and eyes in Europeans using samples from the Upper Palaeolithic to the Bronze Age. The data show that depigmentation alleles arose and were common but not universal well before agriculture arrived in Europe, but the eye & skin colour changes were independent as there are individuals with all possible combinations of derived/ancestral skin/eye alleles. There is a mtDNA division between east and west Europe which is also reflected in depigmentation with a higher frequency of depigmented skin in the east and depigmented eyes in the west. There were high frequencies of skin depigmentation alleles by the Bronze Age which agrees with previous identification of these markers as under recent strong selection. There is a general trend to depigmentation over time. Demographic processes must be important but it is not clear what is driving the selection of depigmentation.
ISBA 2014
ipna.unibas.ch

Robert6
28-08-14, 23:15
https://www.facebook.com/groups/9995363812/permalink/10152463304573813/

sparkey
28-08-14, 23:49
Cool, so that means we'll be getting some results from the Neolithic Balkans, modern Serbia soon?

G2a, I2a, and F would make the samples consistent with other European Neolithic samples we've seen. It will be interesting to see if there is subclade information for the I2a1. I2-M26 seems like the safer bet to me, but could it be something that looks like I2a-Din?

Robert6
28-08-14, 23:53
I2a-Din is very young subclade, from Iron age.
But Neolithic "Grand Father" of I2a-Din possibly were there

LeBrok
29-08-14, 00:07
Cool, so that means we'll be getting some results from the Neolithic Balkans, modern Serbia soon?

G2a, I2a, and F would make the samples consistent with other European Neolithic samples we've seen. It will be interesting to see if there is subclade information for the I2a1. I2-M26 seems like the safer bet to me, but could it be something that looks like I2a-Din?
I think we should start seeing more E1b with EV13 samples. I'll be surprised if much I2a will show up in Neolithic farmers (well till late Neolithic), unless samples are from HG caves.

Aberdeen
29-08-14, 01:28
I think we should start seeing more E1b with EV13 samples. I'll be surprised if much I2a will show up in Neolithic farmers (well till late Neolithic), unless samples are from HG caves.

According to one theory, the I2a remains from the early Neolithic should be found in the same general area as the Neolithic farmers, but in separate settlements along a seashore or river where they could have make a living from fishing without coming into conflict with the farmers who were using their former hunting lands. The I2a folk would then have gradually mixed with the other haplotypes.

kamani
29-08-14, 01:50
Still no R1a/R1b in Stone-Age Europe. I guess there is no point expecting to see any anymore. Also another hint that E-v13 came from Spain in the Balkans (5000 BC sample), not from Anatolia.

Robert6
04-09-14, 20:41
http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2014/09/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-of-early.html
Three STA individuals belong to the NRY haplogroup F* (M89) and two specimens can be assigned to the G2a2b (S126) haplogroup, and one each to G2a (P15) and I2a1 (P37.2) (Dataset S3, S5). The two investigated LBKT samples carry haplogroups G2a2b (S126) and I1 (M253). Furthermore, the incomplete SNP profiles of eight specimens potentially belong to the same haplogroups; STA: three G2a2b (S126), two G2a (P15), and one I (M170); LBKT: one G2a2b (S126) and one F* (M89) (Dataset S5).

Fluffy
05-11-14, 18:44
Interesting. We need more samples to see.

Hauteville
04-12-14, 10:57
"The migrations of the Alans during the 4th–5th centuries AD, from their homeland in the North Caucasus. Major settlement areas are shown in yellow, Alan civilian emigration in red, and military campaigns in orange."

http://i58.tinypic.com/2qk8poj.jpg

Regio X
26-01-15, 21:55
G2a3b1 ( L497 ) is an Austrian marker as per this rootsi paper ..............it is 80% of Austria
I don't know if I understood you right. 80% of Austrians belonging to G are L497, but this is different from saying that L497 is an Austrian marker or that 80% of it are in Austria.