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LeBrok
12-08-14, 03:30
in WW2 the biggest loses against Axis per % of population had the Greeks, 300 000 of a total 6 000 000 estimation.Is this how they romanticize history in Greece?
Russia lost 20 million out of 170 million, Poland lost 6 million out of 35. That's 12 and 17%, to 5% Greek's loses.

Yetos
12-08-14, 07:33
Is this how they romanticize history in Greece?
Russia lost 20 million out of 170 million, Poland lost 6 million out of 35. That's 12 and 17%, to 5% Greek's loses.

where did you find these numbers?

Total War Deaths by Nation: (in some cases, numbers are averaged from multiple sources due to discrepancies).
Soviet Union: 25,000,000
China: 15,000,000
Germany: 8,000,000
Poland: 5,720,000
Dutch East Indies: 3,500,000
Japan: 2,870,000
British India: 2,087,000
French Indochina: 1,600,000
Yugoslavia: 1,363,500
Philippines: 807,000
Romania: 800,000
Hungary: 580,000
France: 550,000
Italy: 454,600
United Kingdom: 450,900
United States: 418,500
Korea: 430,500
Lithuania: 350,000
Czechoslovakia: 325,000
Greece: 563,500
Netherlands: 301,000
British Burma: 272,000
Latvia: 230,000
Austria: 120,000
Ethiopia: 100,000
British Malaya: 100,000
Finland: 97,000
Belgium: 88,000
Estonia: 50,000
Singapore: 50,000
Canada: 45,400
Australia: 40,400
Albania: 30,000
Bulgaria: 25,000
New Zealand: 11,900
South Africa: 11,900
Norway: 9,500
Thailand: 7,600
Denmark: 3,200
Brazil: 2,000
Luxembourg: 2,000
Iraq: 500
Ireland: 200
Iran: 200
Turkey: 200
Iceland: 200
Mexico: 100
Switzerland: 100
Total: 72,468,900
Military Deaths (approximate):
Soviet Union: 9,750,000
Germany: 5,533,000
China: 3,500,000
Japan: 2,120,000
Yugoslavia: 446,000
United States: 416,800
Great Britain: 382,700
Italy: 301,400
Romania: 300,000
Poland: 240,000
France: 217,600
Finland: 95,000
British India: 87,000
Philippines: 57,000
Canada: 45,300
Australia: 39,800
Bulgaria: 22,000
Netherlands: 21,000
Belgium: 12,100
New Zealand: 11,900
South Africa: 11,900
Spain: 4,500
Norway: 3,000
Denmark: 2,100
Total: 23,620,100
Civilian Deaths by Nation (approximate)
Soviet Union: 13,204,000
China: 11,500,000
Poland: 2,400,000
Germany: 2,035,000
India: 2,000,000
Philippines: 750,000
Japan: 580,000
Yugoslavia: 514,000
France: 267,000
Netherlands: 176,000
Italy: 145,100
Great Britain: 67,100
Romania: 64,000
Austria: 58,700
Belgium: 49,600
Spain: 10,000
Norway: 5,800
Bulgaria: 3,000
Finland: 2,000
United States:1,700
Total: 33,833,000 (approximate)
Jewish Deaths by Nation (approximate)
Poland: 3,000,000
Ukraine: 900,000
Hungary: 450,000
Russia: 352,000
Romania: 300,000
Baltic Countires: 228,000
Germany/Austria: 210,000
Netherlands: 105,000
France: 90,000
Slovakia: 75,000
Greece: 54,000
Belgium: 40,000
Yugoslavia: 26,000
Bulgaria: 14,000
Italy: 8,000
Luxembourg: 1,000
Norway: 900
Total: 5,907,900



what are taliking about?

Poland 1938 population 35 000 000 loses 5 720 000, from whom Jews 3 000 000, rest Polish 2 720 000
Greece 1938 population 7 122 000 loses 563 500 from whom Jews 54 000, Greeks 509 500,
ok make the % of nation loses, count first and don't count after the Jews

the biggest loses where in Balkans, simply Jews knew what was going on and most manage to hide or leave,
the first ally win was in Balkans, except if we count Aithiopia, then Aithiopia is the first,
the statistics say also about ex-Yugoslavia, there is a possibility that they had bigger loses

1938 Greece 7 122 000 pop
1949 Greece 7 500 000

PS
do you agree with the big forces policy? or do you believe that Russia or USA is the good guy and the other the bad?

LeBrok
12-08-14, 07:45
@ Yetos.
First of all, is your statement correct?

http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Yetos http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=436726#post436726)
in WW2 the biggest loses against Axis per % of population had the Greeks, 300 000 of a total 6 000 000 estimation.


Second, last time I checked Jews were polish citizens.

John Doe
12-08-14, 10:02
@ Yetos.
First of all, is your statement correct?


Second, last time I checked Jews were polish citizens.

Pretty sure they were also Greek citizens in Greece.

LeBrok
12-08-14, 16:44
Pretty sure they were also Greek citizens in Greece.
Of course, I was just referring to the ones who lived in Poland.

Yetos
12-08-14, 19:45
Of course, I was just referring to the ones who lived in Poland.

The Jews were not casualties of war,
they were hunted,
yes they were Polish and Greek citizens, but they are considered as other type of casualties, cause their death was not due to fight, or hunger but due to nationality.
don't mess the holocaust victims with rest casualties, it was a different war, another war,
since each country was occupied, the first who were gathered were Jews, it is an arithemetical not an analogy.
so beacause Poland had more jews and wer unsuspicious, Victims are tremendous numbers,
But when Greece fall jews knew what was going on, and either left fast, either hide,
remember Thessaloniki was a Jewish patriarch desk, a Haham, and Beroia was caled little Jerusalem, but they knew since we speak 3 years after Poland fall.

the Jews who died as soldiers or in resist, are numbered as soldiers, the Jews who died by hunger, are counted as citizens casualties, but the Jews who died in holocaust is always another list.

why? cause from 3 M Polish Jews in normal war conditions (hunger diseases illnes etc) would die how many? 30 K? 300K surely not 3 M

More simple cannot be done.

LeBrok
13-08-14, 05:14
The Jews were not casualties of war,
they were hunted,
yes they were Polish and Greek citizens, but they are considered as other type of casualties, cause their death was not due to fight, or hunger but due to nationality. I don't want to get into a discussion about your weird understanding of "hunted" people. If we subtract all the casualties Greece is left with 30 thousand military deaths. That's peanuts compared to other countries. They were great Greek soldiers, but please correct your statement:

http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Yetos http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=436726#post436726)
in WW2 the biggest loses against Axis per % of population had the Greeks, 300 000 of a total 6 000 000 estimation.




don't mess the holocaust victims with rest casualties, it was a different war, another war,
since each country was occupied, the first who were gathered were Jews, it is an arithemetical not an analogy.
so beacause Poland had more jews and wer unsuspicious, Victims are tremendous numbers,
But when Greece fall jews knew what was going on, and either left fast, either hide,
remember Thessaloniki was a Jewish patriarch desk, a Haham, and Beroia was caled little Jerusalem, but they knew since we speak 3 years after Poland fall.
They knew what? Nobody wanted to believe the rumors that German Nazis were exterminating people with industrial methods. Obviously not in 1942 or 43. Please read up on history again, your memory is doing tricks on you. Greece lost 86 percent of Jews. It doesn't look like they were escaping or hiding well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Yetos
13-08-14, 07:49
I don't want to get into a discussion about your weird understanding of "hunted" people. If we subtract all the casualties Greece is left with 30 thousand military deaths. That's peanuts compared to other countries. They were great Greek soldiers, but please correct your statement:





They knew what? Nobody wanted to believe the rumors that German Nazis were exterminating people with industrial methods. Obviously not in 1942 or 43. Please read up on history again, your memory is doing tricks on you. Greece lost 86 percent of Jews. It doesn't look like they were escaping or hiding well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties


read History of WW2,
Grece won Italy in 1940, and then Greece had to fight Italy Germany Albania Bulgaria, so surrender, with no help from allies,
search better the dates from 20 octomber to late april 1941

The battle of Crete is not counted as soldiers but as rabels, as also watch near stele by the resist deaths

Greeks pass to Egypt and fight in El Alamein , and then in Italy in Rimini,
theoritically Greece never surender since 2 navy ships and all submarines fought in Aegean sea.

Christiaan
13-08-14, 20:20
Crete was part of Greece wasn't it. No help from the Brits and Australians?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Crete

Yetos, this discussion is quite off-topic don't you think?

Yetos
13-08-14, 20:43
Crete was part of Greece wasn't it. No help from the Brits and Australians?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Crete

Yetos, this discussion is quite off-topic don't you think?

correct,
Brits Australians New Zelanders count in Australia and new Zealand soldiers casualties, not as Greek casualties,
in the Battle of El alamein they do not count as Egyptian casualties, but as British, German etc etc
that is what I was explaining at my friend Le Brok, who believes that Jews who died in Holocaust must count as normal soldiers and civilian casualties.

Yetos
13-08-14, 20:49
I don't want to get into a discussion about your weird understanding of "hunted" people. If we subtract all the casualties Greece is left with 30 thousand military deaths. That's peanuts compared to other countries. They were great Greek soldiers, but please correct your statement:

They knew what? Nobody wanted to believe the rumors that German Nazis were exterminating people with industrial methods. Obviously not in 1942 or 43. Please read up on history again, your memory is doing tricks on you. Greece lost 86 percent of Jews. It doesn't look like they were escaping or hiding well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

here is your answer

http://www.secondworldwarhistory.com/world-war-2-statistics.asp (http://www.secondworldwarhistory.com/world-war-2-statistics.asp)

http://worldwar2-database.blogspot.gr/2010/10/world-war-ii-casualties.html (http://worldwar2-database.blogspot.gr/2010/10/world-war-ii-casualties.html)

wikipedia has quality numbers, but not correct categories,
watch the 2 above,
you can not count Jewish loses of Holocaust as civilian or soldier loses,
the Jews who died as soldiers count as state soldiers, the Jews who who died by disease or hunger as civilian loses, the Jews who died in camps is a special category, cause died due to nationality, and not due to citizenship

Thank you,

LeBrok
14-08-14, 05:49
read History of WW2,
Grece won Italy in 1940, and then Greece had to fight Italy Germany Albania Bulgaria, so surrender, with no help from allies,
search better the dates from 20 octomber to late april 1941

The battle of Crete is not counted as soldiers but as rabels, as also watch near stele by the resist deaths

Greeks pass to Egypt and fight in El Alamein , and then in Italy in Rimini,
theoritically Greece never surender since 2 navy ships and all submarines fought in Aegean sea.
All what you mention is not the issue. Please concentrate on a valid response on a subject. How many Greek soldiers died?

LeBrok
14-08-14, 05:52
here is your answer

http://www.secondworldwarhistory.com/world-war-2-statistics.asp (http://www.secondworldwarhistory.com/world-war-2-statistics.asp)

http://worldwar2-database.blogspot.gr/2010/10/world-war-ii-casualties.html (http://worldwar2-database.blogspot.gr/2010/10/world-war-ii-casualties.html)

wikipedia has quality numbers, but not correct categories,
watch the 2 above,
you can not count Jewish loses of Holocaust as civilian or soldier loses,
the Jews who died as soldiers count as state soldiers, the Jews who who died by disease or hunger as civilian loses, the Jews who died in camps is a special category, cause died due to nationality, and not due to citizenship

Thank you,
About 2 million poles died in concentration camps. Was this due to citizenship or nationality?

Yetos
14-08-14, 06:24
About 2 million poles died in concentration camps. Was this due to citizenship or nationality?

you know the answer,

i can not make it more simple,

LeBrok
14-08-14, 06:34
you know the answer,

i can not make it more simple,
No, no, humor us with your creative mind. Was it citizenship, nationality or maybe ethnicity, or perhaps nothing more than racial hatred? Mind you that Slavs were declared subhumans by Hitler. So, Yetos, what is the reason behind 2 million Poles who died in concentration camps?

Yetos
14-08-14, 07:24
No, no, humor us with your creative mind. Was it citizenship, nationality or maybe ethnicity, or perhaps nothing more than racial hatred? Mind you that Slavs were declared subhumans by Hitler. So, Yetos, what is the reason behind 2 million Poles who died in concentration camps?

answer me about the Gipsies?
they die as what?
as Hungarian citizens? as Hungarian soldiers? due to citizenship? due to nationality/ethnicity?
and where (category you put them?)

Slavs Jews Gipsies who died in Holocausts in what Category you must put them?
they die as resist? as cooperating with resist? as members of a global conspiracy? as religious heresy? as spies?

tell me today in Ukraine die for example 50 person, 30 in battle and 10 at hospitals, and 10 by normal death.
what is number of ukraine casualties today in this war? 50? 40? 30?

you said it your shelf, |Slavs declared as subhumans, they died in camps for their ethnicity, not in war actions, neither as suffering citizens, they count in their ethnicity/nationality category
Stalin exterminate many Ukraine's nationalist, what kind of casualties were they? and of which side? they were USSR citizens, so could you count them as USSR casualties? as russian casualties? as Ukraine's casualties?

until today most IS and Kurds officially have the Iraqi citizenship, they are at war, would they be counted as Iraqi casualties? or in different columns/categories?

LeBrok
14-08-14, 17:02
a

[QUOTE]you said it your shelf, |Slavs declared as subhumans, they died in camps for their ethnicity, not in war actions, neither as suffering citizens, they count in their ethnicity/nationality category
Stalin exterminate many Ukraine's nationalist, what kind of casualties were they? and of which side? they were USSR citizens, so could you count them as USSR casualties? as russian casualties? as Ukraine's casualties? Both. I'm not sure why you think you can only pick one option? Like in arithmetics, element can belong to many sets.


answer me about the Gipsies?
they die as what?
as Hungarian citizens? as Hungarian soldiers? due to citizenship? due to nationality/ethnicity?
and where (category you put them?)
Hungary was axis, so we can skip citizenship and nationality reason. We are left with ethnicity. However in Poland any reason worked.
Having said that, technically there was no polish citizenship because there was no poland. Did Germans distinguish nationality from ethnicity if it comes to General Gubernatorial. The deeper one goes in the subject things get complicated and are hard to distinguish as obvious solutions. It even depends in what part of Poland one lived, some parts were included in Germany proper.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/kulo11/METHODISCHER%201943/23.jpg

Yetos
14-08-14, 21:02
@ LE Brok

a good question in today war is the Yezidis,
there is hunt, extermination, maasacrs about them,
Yezidis spoke major kurdish, but exist also Arabophones Yezidi,
Yezidi are religion minorities from Syria to Iraq to Iran to ...
ok in a total cost of war they count with IS and Kurds and Christians to the Iraq casulaties, then iraq split to 2, IS and Kurdistan then?
you would count them as what? as IS casualties? cause their jomeland in IS? as Kurds casualties? cause they speak Kurdish or Arabian? as what?

A kurd will say they are Kurdish casualties cause spoke Kurdish,
An Arab will say they are Arabian casualties, cause their homeland is in South Iraq/Syria
An Iranian will say they are Iranian casualties, cause Yezidi religion is Iranic religion,
Assant will say they are Syrrian casualties
etc etc

LeBrok
15-08-14, 01:44
@ LE Brok

a good question in today war is the Yezidis,
there is hunt, extermination, maasacrs about them,
Yezidis spoke major kurdish, but exist also Arabophones Yezidi,
Yezidi are religion minorities from Syria to Iraq to Iran to ...
ok in a total cost of war they count with IS and Kurds and Christians to the Iraq casulaties, then iraq split to 2, IS and Kurdistan then?
you would count them as what? as IS casualties? cause their jomeland in IS? as Kurds casualties? cause they speak Kurdish or Arabian? as what?

A kurd will say they are Kurdish casualties cause spoke Kurdish,
An Arab will say they are Arabian casualties, cause their homeland is in South Iraq/Syria
An Iranian will say they are Iranian casualties, cause Yezidi religion is Iranic religion,
Assant will say they are Syrrian casualties
etc etc
They all will be correct. Depending how you compile statistics you can include in any group. You just need to let people know who is included where. They are all casualties of the war by the way.

They named Wiki page Casualties of The War, perhaps (for you) they should have named it Casualties During WW2? But lets not argue of semantics too much. :)

Maleth
15-08-14, 11:24
Great commemoration for Malta today who was one of the heaviest bombed places in world war two. Today 15th August marks the commemoration of the arrival of 5 crippled convoys in grand harbour out of 14 that saved the Islands from a Nazi and Facist take over. The Islands were surrounded by heavy enemy artillery from North South East and west and still managed to survive against all odds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pedestal

Christiaan
20-08-14, 00:15
Worse than Heligoland?:thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heligoland#World_War_II , even after the war they didn't manage to blast it away. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heligoland#Explosion

Maleth
20-08-14, 12:19
Worse than Heligoland?:thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heligoland#World_War_II , even after the war they didn't manage to blast it away. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heligoland#Explosion

To be honest I do not know how many raids were carried out on Heligoland and if civilians were directly impacted as part of the horror happenings of any war. What I can tell you is that Malta has seen 3000 air raids in 2 years (average of 4 a day for two years, mostly around the harbour area were most of the population lived, (but also periodically assaults to in inner towns and villages were people were seeking refuge). 900 public underground shelters were dug through rocks around the Island (apart from the private ones in houses). Obviously if this did not happen the civilian causalities would have been much higher.

http://maltagc70.wordpress.com/maltas-rock-shelters/

Patients in hospitals just had a small piece of cheese and a 'slice' of bread as their meal of the day. Luckily the Island did not suffer the unfortunate events of mass executions as what happened in Poland and other countries.

Christiaan
20-08-14, 20:17
Ok, that sounds worse especially the 200 air-raids, but if you considering the sizes of the two islands and the effort that was made to literally get rid of the island I think Heligoland was still quite something. Well the people had to leave, the plan was to blow the whole thing up which they didn't achieve. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6hKwjoKa-c

Maleth
21-08-14, 10:59
Ok, that sounds worse especially the 200 air-raids, but if you considering the sizes of the two islands and the effort that was made to literally get rid of the island I think Heligoland was still quite something. Well the people had to leave, the plan was to blow the whole thing up which they didn't achieve. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6hKwjoKa-c

You are right. Irrelevant to the size of the Islands, the objective was the same. Airstrikes To inflict as much damage and destroy as much of the navy bases as possible (on both sides).