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MariaC
16-08-14, 12:58
Can a family live in one specific region of Spain with records found as far back as 1630 yet, no single person from numerous databases connect with DNA? At no generation level. This is a mystery indeed. Possibly because this tiny town does not have people conducting DNA analysis. Not sure. I'm finding connections with Ireland, Scotland, and other areas.

My Dad's Y-DNA Haplogroup

BT SRY10831.1
CF M168
C+F
F M89
IJK
K M9
MNOPS
P M45
R M207
R1 M173
R1b M343

Maleth
16-08-14, 16:50
Can a family live in one specific region of Spain with records found as far back as 1630 yet, no single person from numerous databases connect with DNA? At no generation level. This is a mystery indeed. Possibly because this tiny town does not have people conducting DNA analysis. Not sure. I'm finding connections with Ireland, Scotland, and other areas.

My Dad's Y-DNA Haplogroup

BT SRY10831.1
CF M168
C+F
F M89
IJK
K M9
MNOPS
P M45
R M207
R1 M173
R1b M343



Hello Maria C. I am no expert. But I will put my 2cents worth until one will get on baord. DNA is a complex subject. I don't understand your results but I presume that the last one (R1b M343) is what your father haplogroup is. This is what wikipedia says about it.
R1b (R-M343)


R1b* (that is R1b with no subsequent distinguishing SNP mutations) is extremely rare. The only population yet recorded with a definite significant proportion of R1b* are the Kurds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd) of southeastern Kazakhstan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan) with 13%.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Myres2010-7) However, more recently, a large study of Y-chromosome variation in Iran, revealed R1b* as high as 4.3% among Persian sub-populations.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-18) In a study of Jordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan) it was found that no less than 20 out of all 146 men tested (13.7%), including most notably 20 out of 45 men tested from the Dead Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea) area, were positive for M173 (R1) but negative for P25 and M269, mentioned above, as well as the R1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1a) markers SRY10831.2 and M17, a study indicates that they are all R1b2-v88 [2] (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/suppinfo/ejhg2010146s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/abs/ejhg2010146a.html).[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-flores2005-19) Hassan et al. (2008) found an equally surprising 14 out of 26 (54%) of Sudanese Fulani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulani) who were M173+ and P25-.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-pmid18618658-20) Wood et al. report 2 Egyptian cases of R1-M173 which were negative for SRY10831 (R1a1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1a1)) and P25 (R1b1), out of a sample of 1,122 males from various African countries, including 92 from Egypt.[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Wood2005-21) Such cases could possibly be either R1b* (R-M343*) or R1a* (R-M420*) (demonstrating the importance of checking exact mutations tested when comparing findings in this field).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#R1b_.28R-M343.29

Which part of Spain are you referring to? The Iberian, peninsula was a crossroads for Europe for many centuries, and was very diverse in terms of population. The people there included Basques, Celts, Phoenicians, Goths, Visigoths, Berbers, and Jews, and more. By 1030, Muslims controlled a majority of the territory in Spain and what would eventually be Portugal. The Moorish areas of Spain, known as the Caliphate of Cordoba, were known for their learning and culture. The Basques had a separate area in Navarre, and the Franks had control of a small area in the north. So as you can see it was very fragmented. Some sort of unification happened under the rule of Charles V in 1516. Your parental line probably goes back further then your paper trail. Knowing your area and its deep history can provide you with a few answers

LeBrok
16-08-14, 17:30
Possibly because this tiny town does not have people conducting DNA analysis.


This is most likely the case. How many people did Y tests in Spain, one in one thousand? Even if it is one in one hundred it is still not that many to find close matches in a town of few thousand people. Plus records of these peoples' tests are scattered amongst different testing companies and databases.

MariaC
17-08-14, 01:52
This is most likely the case. How many people did Y tests in Spain, one in one thousand? Even if it is one in one hundred it is still not that many to find close matches in a town of few thousand people. Plus records of these peoples' tests are scattered amongst different testing companies and databases.

I know with certainty that records can be found further back. I was able to visibly see them locked away and controlled by the church rather than municipalities or government agencies. Few historians have access. I was graciously allowed because one high ranking church official liked my enthusiasm when I visited from the United States, year after year and, with my dad. My dad is now gone but I continue.

The area of Spain that I am referring to is the large region of Extramadura, Badajoz Spain. Specifically, 1) Fuente de Cantos, Badajoz 2) Sancho Perez in Zafra Badajoz and Calzadilla de los Barros, Badajoz. Many from this region joined voyages to the New World and it's well documented but my dad's line never left the region. This is when I began hunting for more information.

I also know that there was Morrish occupation and Roman occupation.

Regarding Roman occupation, ruins in each of these towns mentioned above have found the inscription Contributa Julia Ugultuniacum (in spanish Contributa Iulia Ugultunia) which is mentioned within documents of Pliny Ptolemy of Rome. Pliny mentions that Contributa Iulia Ugultunia consisted of three Celtic areas of Baetica and associated with Curiga. The "Antoine Itinerary" says that under the "Ravenna Cosmography and Georgraphy of Ptolemy" that Contributa Julia and Curiga are 24 miles apart; "on the main road of Hispalis to Emerita". If we assume that Roman miles measure approximately 1,620 yards and the itinerary figures are correct and the fact that remnants of this roman road still exists, today, it would be Medina de Las Torres, a municipality pertaining to the Comarca Zafra, Badajoz. And, while no records have been found to definitively say that Contributa Julia is an actual town name, there are sufficient records to show that Curiga was a town, today Monesterio, Badajoz Spain.

Monesterio and Medina de Torres are very, very close to the towns mentioned above and where my dad's line come from. In addition, there is a very old cemetary in Monsterio with an inscription built within an honorific statue of an emperior with the decree Decuriones Res. P. Curiensium honoring him but the top of the head is missing. Experts have seen it and say that the style of epigraphy is that of Emperior Septimus Severus which cooperates with the stone dating of 196 A.D. Inscriptions can be found in many places including churches built during the Vespasianic period.

MORE IMPORTANT, DNA.
Spanish antiquate historian Rodrigo Caro says the term "acum" is a common celtic suffix found in Gaul.
Controversies regarding Contributa Iulia Ugultunia actual location will continue.
Yet, Ptolemy and many more records indicate that region is occupied with Celtic (colonies).
With this information, I can understand why my dad is only connecting with people having Irish, Scottish and Germany ancestry.
Yet, I can't understand why no spanish surnames are popping up today from the list of people connecting with me.

A sample of SURNAME connections:
HAMILTON within 23 generations, 18/19 markers match, genetic distance 2
MOORE within 23 generations, 18/19 markers match, genetic distance 2
CIITTA within 23 generations 18/19 markers match, genetic distance 2
WILIAMS within 29 generations 23/24 markers match, genetic distance 3
JEFFERSON within 32 generations 20/22 markers match, genetic distance 3


OTHER SURNAMES WHO CONNECTED ( within (23-28 generations, markers 20 and higher and genetic distance of 2)

BARKER, MITCHEL, HANLEY, KOELLING, LUST, HALL, INGLIS, MILLER, GILLESPIE, YUNGNER, CZITROM, EVANS, GOODMAN, BATEMAN, PEACOCK, MIGLIORE, RANKIN, HOWLAND, CAMPBELL, THERIAULT, DEAN, GEIGER, ADAMS, JONES, GIESE, DEMPSTER, HOPKINS, McENTAFFER, SALMON, WYLDE, DAYTON, McKINLEY.

ONLY 1 GARCIA (50 generations, distance of 3)


Does this not seem odd to you?????

I would have expected more Spanish surnames but not the case.
Now you can understand why I'm so perplexed.
It's not as if my dad was born out of wedlock from an unknown paternal line
because many siblings and cousins conducted DNA and all tested same line.

Wow!:rolleyes2:

MariaC
18-08-14, 04:27
DNA from specific regions of Badajoz Spain; Fuente de Cantos, Sancho Perez, Calzadilla de Los Barros



Looking at historical events occuring in this region, in chronological order, I was able to see the following:

GAULS/CELTS region of western Europe during the Iron Age and Roman Era. Present day Southern France, North West Spain, parts of Luxembourg, Belgium, Northern Italy and most of Switzerland.
ROMANS Beginning in 203 BC finally, subduing Gaul in 51 BC. Rome control lasted 5 centuries.
VISIGOTH/GERMANIC Tribe Sacked Rome, Italy. Then, settled in South Gaul eventually,Western Spain and Portugal forming Kingdom of Visigoths.
FRANKS/GERMANIC Tribe Under Clovis I after collapse of Western Europe under Roman control. Franks united under Merovignians (Salian Franks/German Tribe). Now Visigotsh was limited to Hispnia Spain.
ARABS/BERGERS Moors (Moroccan of Northern Africa) invaded different times Gibraltar, Spain, Portugal, Southern France and Southern Italy.
KING FERDINAND Descedants from Iberian rulking family of Basque with originas in Gascony, known to have Germanic DNA (today south western France) take Spain Back from Moors.
BADAJOZ SACKED 1658 During Portuguese Restoration War, the Duke of San German (Francisco de Tuttavilla) held on during this four month siege until relife arrived from King Philip IV of Spain.
BADAJOZ SACKED 1705 During the War of the Spanish Successsion, Henri Massue (son of Marquis of Ruvigny Vicount of Galway) left his mark in the history of Ireland (Protestant religion), was also appointed Colonel when England when England was dissatisfied with Schomberg's 1704 Portuguese campaign. He allied with Portugal. In the summer of 1705, the seige of Badajoz ended; Galway lost parts of his right arm.
BADAJOZ SACKED 1811 English, Irish, French, in the area
BADAJOZ SACKED (2ND OF 1811) English, Irish, French and Portuguese in the area
BADAJOZ SACKED 1812 English, Irish and French and Portuguese in the area

Now, I can understand why my Dad's DNA map moves from Spain to Norway to Germany to Caucaus Russia to Turkey to Israel

Maleth
18-08-14, 14:13
Maria C. Thats a very interesting history. Keep in mind that all Rulers of a particular area would not automatically mean that there were some sudden mass settlements from the people of the person (region/country) who is ruling that particular area.

Its quite painstaking to find out were these episodes really happen. Migrations did happen sometimes, but normally it was just a matter of installing a governor and a garrison for security reasons in warlike invasions. Sometimes the overall rulers (such as kings and queens) did mix (as in the case of the Hohenstaufen), but that also would not bring about any significant new admixtures to the general populations. One has to keep in mind slavery (who could have been freed and settled in a local area) Also there were peaceful merchants who at some point have settled in various areas too. So one have to look out for a many different scenarios of how a particular DNA arrived to a specific location and when.

Knowing your history its good because you will have some kind of base to start sorting out your huge puzzle which unfortunately DNA can help and give indications, but not always can tell the full story (so far). This is an ever evolving thing and you have to keep your eyes and ears open for any new discoveries new information and so on. In the meantime some things seem to be confirmed others are assumed as probable and other just open theories.

I would suggest that you get acquainted with your fathers dna result. Learn more about it (its migration history). Try to add deeper tests. See where its more common world wide and so on. You can try to get in touch with your exact or very close matches and exchange some information. But alone the journey keep an open mind as it get more confusing. Remember what you are today is not just your mother and father line but you have grand father and grand mother from your mum side and they also had grand fathers and grand mothers probably with a different set of haplogroups that would make you what you are today.