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MtDNA
17-08-14, 23:01
Why does everybody here that I see have their MtDNA listed, also have their Y-dna listed. Does nearly everyone here have a Y-chromosome, or do they just fill in their favorite Y-dna haplogroup to look cool? Is this a true representation of the lack of females interested in anthropology and genetics?

>activate lsarcasm-mode
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"I see you guys all have Y-chromosomes. I'm jealous. Where did you get them? How much did it cost?"
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>deactivate lsarcasm-mode
lsarcasm-mode off

LeBrok
17-08-14, 23:10
"I see you guys all have Y-chromosomes. I'm jealous. Where did you get them? How much did it cost?"

I got it free from my father. :grin:

MtDNA
18-08-14, 00:24
I got it free from my father. :grin:

Even if I did inherit a Y-chromosome from my father, I'd be to embarrassed to actually post it's haplogroup. It would probably be Y-DNA-CLADE-UNDEFINED/UNLISTED. I don't know where my father's paternal ancestry is from (his mother is a pure Iranian mongol), because he's so mixed, you can't even make out any ethnicity from him. His Y-chromosome might even be proto-Adam for all I know.

Maleth
18-08-14, 13:33
Why does everybody here that I see have their MtDNA listed, also have their Y-dna listed. Does nearly everyone here have a Y-chromosome, or do they just fill in their favorite Y-dna haplogroup to look cool? Is this a true representation of the lack of females interested in anthropology and genetics?

Females carry only their MtDNA meaning her mothers line (mother her mother her mother her mother and so on)
Males carry both Ydna (meaning their father his father his father and so on) and also Mtdna. While Mtdna is available for males too it makes it worthed for both Dna's to be tested with most males.

If you want to find out your fathers DNA you have to have him or any of his brothers (if he got any) or any of your brothers (if you got any). Knowing your fathers DNA you have absolutely nothing to be ashamed about. In the end of the dna sequence it will take us to the same person/clan and had our different routes through different Geographic location, with different challenges, climatic conditions and food availabilities... which is a fascinating story and not something to be ashamed of!.

Although your father and mothers dna will come as a letter/s and a number/s it would only mean that you can pin point all the way down to were they came from covering probably thousands of years, but your genetic make up is not owed only to them. They had a mother and a father and they also had a mother and a father with a possibility of different haplogroups who have contributed to who you are today.

Aberdeen
18-08-14, 14:16
What Maleth said. Plus, mtDNA tells us less about population movements over the last few thousand years because mtDNA mutates much more slowly than Y DNA, so people who can only figure out their mtDNA unless they get males relatives to get tested are therefore perhaps less interested in using genetics to talk about population movements. Possibly they identify less with the results, at least in many cases. So, while there are some women posting here, it is mostly men.

MtDNA
18-08-14, 16:44
Females carry only their MtDNA meaning her mothers line (mother her mother her mother her mother and so on)
Males carry both Ydna (meaning their father his father his father and so on) and also Mtdna. While Mtdna is available for males too it makes it worthed for both Dna's to be tested with most males.

If you want to find out your fathers DNA you have to have him or any of his brothers (if he got any) or any of your brothers (if you got any). Knowing your fathers DNA you have absolutely nothing to be ashamed about. In the end of the dna sequence it will take us to the same person/clan and had our different routes through different Geographic location, with different challenges, climatic conditions and food availabilities... which is a fascinating story and not something to be ashamed of!.

Although your father and mothers dna will come as a letter/s and a number/s it would only mean that you can pin point all the way down to were they came from covering probably thousands of years, but your genetic make up is not owed only to them. They had a mother and a father and they also had a mother and a father with a possibility of different haplogroups who have contributed to who you are today.

My dad is very, very, far away, in Iran. And, my only brother, my twin, was taken after birth, and claimed as my uncle's son, who is also in Iran.

Plus, I was joking about being ashamed. No one should be ashamed of their ancestry. All that creates is self-hatred. Even if your father's maternal line are all inbred descendants of Genghis Khan that have Asperger's.

oriental
18-08-14, 21:33
Men and women have x chromosomes and that is where the major inherited genes are. They are the autosomal genes which trace your ancestry across the world. Y-chromosome will probably disappear as it is shrinking over times as dominant men seem to have access to females so only a few male genes are passed on. Besides in the past polygamy was widely practised.

MtDNA
19-08-14, 00:16
There are two reasons why I think that Y-dna haplogroups do not provide as much information as MtDNA.

1. Y-chromosomes are chromosomes, and can cross over when two are present. There are men that have three sex chromosome, XYY. In most of these cases, the Y chromosomes are duplicates, thus of the same haplogroup. However, in some cases that is not true. An obvious example would be double fertilization (when an egg is penetrated by two sperm cells, each with abnormal numbers of chromosomes). If the two sperm are from two different men (of vastly different Y-dna haps), the Y-chromosome crisscross would result in chromosomes that do not fit standard haplogroups. Also, this can occur if the female has a Y-chromosome (which can happen, if the Y-chromosome has a SRY deactivating mutation).

2. Y-chromosomes may be quickly mutating, but a population's Y-haplogroup composition is quickly changing. This is why Y-Adam lived much earlier that Mitochondrial Eve. When two populations join, their MtDNA hap ratios will remain quite stable, while one Y-DNA hap will usually prove to be more dominant that the others. That is why many of the Y-haps belonging to famous ancient populations were not preserved. For example, when the Proto-Indo-Europeans and the Iranian U2e joined, the U2e's own men went extinct. This phenomenon is due to the potentially high reproductive ability of men. While women can only have one child within a certain time period, many men of a certain hap can have their offspring occupy the wombs of most of the women, thus denying the other hap a chance for reproduction. Also, the boundaries of Y-DNA haplogroups are much more blurred, since women tended to stay in one area, or move along with the tribe, while men were more likely to go on lone voyages.

sparkey
19-08-14, 18:47
1. Y-chromosomes are chromosomes, and can cross over when two are present. There are men that have three sex chromosome, XYY. In most of these cases, the Y chromosomes are duplicates, thus of the same haplogroup. However, in some cases that is not true. An obvious example would be double fertilization (when an egg is penetrated by two sperm cells, each with abnormal numbers of chromosomes). If the two sperm are from two different men (of vastly different Y-dna haps), the Y-chromosome crisscross would result in chromosomes that do not fit standard haplogroups. Also, this can occur if the female has a Y-chromosome (which can happen, if the Y-chromosome has a SRY deactivating mutation).

Why would an ultra-rare situation like Y-chromosome combination negate the viability of YDNA as a tool for analyzing population movements? If it was a problem, then surely we could find examples of lineages following a combination event? I don't know of a single one.


2. Y-chromosomes may be quickly mutating, but a population's Y-haplogroup composition is quickly changing. This is why Y-Adam lived much earlier that Mitochondrial Eve.

Y-Adam is currently estimated at 208,300 years old, and that's a significantly reduced revision (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v22/n9/abs/ejhg2013303a.html). What's the current estimate for Mitochondrial Eve? I recall about 200,000 years old, which would put them in the same ballpark.

That said, it is a good rule of thumb that Y-DNA lineages are more likely to go extinct or bottleneck than mtDNA lineages.


When two populations join, their MtDNA hap ratios will remain quite stable, while one Y-DNA hap will usually prove to be more dominant that the others. That is why many of the Y-haps belonging to famous ancient populations were not preserved. For example, when the Proto-Indo-Europeans and the Iranian U2e joined, the U2e's own men went extinct. This phenomenon is due to the potentially high reproductive ability of men. While women can only have one child within a certain time period, many men of a certain hap can have their offspring occupy the wombs of most of the women, thus denying the other hap a chance for reproduction. Also, the boundaries of Y-DNA haplogroups are much more blurred, since women tended to stay in one area, or move along with the tribe, while men were more likely to go on lone voyages.

Much of what you say about Y-DNA is true, but I think it's possible to account for it simply by knowing ahead of time that Y-DNA distributions tend to magnify the effect of migrations. There is a pretty important benefit to the frequent Y tree pruning, though, and that is that individuals lineages become more easily associated with particular migrations. Suppose we want to determine if a British lineage is of Anglo-Saxon or Celtic descent. We often don't have to go very far down the Y tree to get a good guess, and we can often use nothing but STRs, which we can't do with mtDNA. On the other hand, since mtDNA distribution was relatively inflexible in Anglo-Saxon and Celtic populations, the two populations don't look all that different to begin with in their mtDNA, so to figure out the source of a lineage, we'd need to test it to a more specific subclade than exists in most databases.

If your point is more about figuring out the composition of a population rather than the origin of a certain lineage, it's important to keep in mind that mtDNA distributions have the opposite problem as Y-DNA, namely, that they tend to minimize the effect of migration. Autosomal DNA profiles are likely to lie in-between the two in most cases.

MtDNA
21-08-14, 05:31
I understand that it is quite scary for you guys, not being able to pass down your mitochondrion. The realization of this fact is what makes you identify more with your Y-dna. But, Y-DNA haps are pretty exclusionary; half of the population cannot be positioned into a Y-dna slot. It is hard to decide whether a female belongs to the Y-DNA hap of her father or the father of her children. However, the MtDNA haplogroup of a male is pretty straightforward, it is the mitochondrial lineage found within his cells.
Plus, for multiple species evolutionary comparison, MtDNA is much more reliable. The Y-chromosome is a pretty new developement, which first emerged after the placental mammals split from the monotremes. At it's earliest stage, it was just an SRY allele found on one chromosome which made the individual male. When it was mostly similar to the X-chromosome, many recombinations occur. Slowly, the chromosome shrunk. Animals that diverged before the formation can't have their tree assesed by Y-dna.
However, with MtDNA, we can assess the position of various species on the evolutionary tree.

bicicleur
21-08-14, 09:11
till some 2-3000 years ago, societies were tribal
the tribes practised exogamie : the males sayed in the same tribe and got their wives from other tribes
furthermore when some tribes couldn't compete with incoming tribes (e.g. hunter-gatherers with incoming farmers) that tribe faced possible extinction
wives from these endangered tribes tended to marry into the incoming tribe, while the males eventually went extinct
if you want to study the movements and history of the tribes, you have to study Y-DNA
mtDNA dispersed out of the tribe more frequently and it is much harder to trace their history

Aberdeen
21-08-14, 17:04
till some 2-3000 years ago, societies were tribal
the tribes practised exogamie : the males sayed in the same tribe and got their wives from other tribes
furthermore when some tribes couldn't compete with incoming tribes (e.g. hunter-gatherers with incoming farmers) that tribe faced possible extinction
wives from these endangered tribes tended to marry into the incoming tribe, while the males eventually went extinct
if you want to study the movements and history of the tribes, you have to study Y-DNA
mtDNA dispersed out of the tribe more frequently and it is much harder to trace their history

Any anthropologist will tell you that there is no one model for marriages within groups or between members of different groups. It depends on the culture or cultures involved, and what sort of societal expectations people are taught to think of as "normal" or "the way it should be done". The prevalence of patriarchal decision making about marriage that was the norm in Europe until recently was the result of christians adopting Roman laws and societal norms, which spread such values around Europe.

sparkey
21-08-14, 17:58
I understand that it is quite scary for you guys, not being able to pass down your mitochondrion. The realization of this fact is what makes you identify more with your Y-dna.

:laughing:

We need more posters like you to challenge convention. Thanks for this.

That said, I actually do take quite an interest in my personal matriline. I'm actually working on a genealogical report for my family about our direct matriline, tracing it back 10 generations and following it along a few different collateral paths into 5 or 6 different countries. Plus an opening chapter on what it means to carry U4a. I haven't done anything like this for my patriline yet (although I hope to someday).

bicicleur
22-08-14, 09:34
Any anthropologist will tell you that there is no one model for marriages within groups or between members of different groups. It depends on the culture or cultures involved, and what sort of societal expectations people are taught to think of as "normal" or "the way it should be done". The prevalence of patriarchal decision making about marriage that was the norm in Europe until recently was the result of christians adopting Roman laws and societal norms, which spread such values around Europe.

western Europe is clearly dominated by R1b-L11
there is a proto-Celtic R1b-P312 subclade
there is the R1a-M458 sublcade for western & eastern Slavs, and I2a1b-CTS1028 for southern Slavs
there is the Semitic subclade E1b-M123
there is the Arab tribe J1-P58
China and SE Asia are dominated by haplo O and subclades
only when warlords started recruiting from other tribes as well, mixing occured among Huns/Turkic/Mongolian/Germanic/Vikings and even they can be defined by a restricted number of clades

I don't know of such instances among mtDNA

MtDNA
01-09-14, 04:39
I don't know of such instances among mtDNA

Exactly. Y-dna tends to have less diversity (as in number of clades in a population).

Shannon1122
23-02-15, 13:04
Adopted From My Parents. And I am lucky that I am giving it to my children. :D

Shannon1122
17-03-15, 13:48
Adopted From My Parents (http://kenmore.cylex.com.au/company/crowd-control-systems-23552375.html). And I am lucky that I am giving it to my children. :D
I am lucky enough.

RobertColumbia
13-07-15, 19:43
...
If you want to find out your fathers DNA you have to have him or any of his brothers (if he got any) or any of your brothers (if you got any). Knowing your fathers DNA you have absolutely nothing to be ashamed about. In the end of the dna sequence it will take us to the same person/clan and had our different routes through different Geographic location, with different challenges, climatic conditions and food availabilities... which is a fascinating story and not something to be ashamed of!....

Yes, thank you. When I take my own y-haplogroup and compare it with what appears in my family's traditional family history documents, the following pattern seems to emerge as the most likely story of my direct paternal ancestors:

1) Proto-Italo-Celtic (R1b)
2) Insular Celtic (R1b-L21)
3) Gaelic
4) Kingdom of the Dal Riata (R1b-M222)
5) Several centuries of farming in Northern Ireland or Western Scotland
6) Farmers on the Ulster Plantation
7) Kentucky "Hillbillies"
8) Prairie homesteaders/pioneers (i.e. the "Little House on the Prairie" life)
9) Me

Being R1b-M222 makes sense for someone descended from Appalachians. It provides a powerful messages of who I am and who my family has been. It doesn't control who I become, but it gives a foundation. Before I had my DNA tested, I was told that I descended from Appalachians who were from who knows where. Now it makes sense. They were, most likely, the original "hillbillies" - the rural Celts of American lore who were intensely clannish, obsessed with weapons, and had a low regard for government of any kind, produced through many generations of poverty, oppression, and violence.

RobertColumbia
16-07-15, 17:31
...If your point is more about figuring out the composition of a population rather than the origin of a certain lineage, it's important to keep in mind that mtDNA distributions have the opposite problem as Y-DNA, namely, that they tend to minimize the effect of migration. Autosomal DNA profiles are likely to lie in-between the two in most cases.

This makes me wonder about something. How long do you think it will take before there are clearly separate American and/or Australian subclades of European y-haplogroups? My y-DNA tells me that I am R1b-M222 and my family history indicates that my particular lineage was in Appalachia in the early 1800's. So could there be a yet-to-be-discovered "hillbilly" SNP that identifies me as part of an Ulster Scots Appalachian subclade of M222, or has there probably not been enough time yet?

Given the fact that North America has received heavy European immigration since the early 1600's while Australia didn't start receiving much until 200 years later, I would expect that American subclades of British HG's would be the first to appear.

The Spanish began colonizing their own colonies earlier than the British, leading one to speculate that there might already be R1b-DF27-Puertorican and R1b-DF27-Mexicano subclades in existence that are waiting to be discovered.

Similarly, I wonder if there is an R1b-L21-Cajun stomping around Dixie or an I2a-Din-N-PennsylvaniaDutch wandering around the Mid-Atlantic states.

MtDNA
16-07-15, 20:11
This makes me wonder about something. How long do you think it will take before there are clearly separate American and/or Australian subclades of European y-haplogroups? My y-DNA tells me that I am R1b-M222 and my family history indicates that my particular lineage was in Appalachia in the early 1800's. So could there be a yet-to-be-discovered "hillbilly" SNP that identifies me as part of an Ulster Scots Appalachian subclade of M222, or has there probably not been enough time yet?

Given the fact that North America has received heavy European immigration since the early 1600's while Australia didn't start receiving much until 200 years later, I would expect that American subclades of British HG's would be the first to appear.

The Spanish began colonizing their own colonies earlier than the British, leading one to speculate that there might already be R1b-DF27-Puertorican and R1b-DF27-Mexicano subclades in existence that are waiting to be discovered.

Similarly, I wonder if there is an R1b-L21-Cajun stomping around Dixie or an I2a-Din-N-PennsylvaniaDutch wandering around the Mid-Atlantic states.

That would be interesting. Such a situation could also possibly arise even if the mutation did not occur in the newly inhabited land. If the mutation only survived in a subsect of the original country, such as a family, it is quite possible that they could have all migrated to the colony.

My mtDNA lineage hasn't been mutated since before 45 kya, before the splitting of the first europeeans and the iranic people that would later join up with the proto-indo-europeeans. Despite being common in the past, once even being the most common maternal lineage, spread all across eurasia, they suddenly died out 30kya, and only remained in pockets.

RobertColumbia
16-07-15, 20:34
That would be interesting. Such a situation could also possibly arise even if the mutation did not occur in the newly inhabited land. If the mutation only survived in a subsect of the original country, such as a family, it is quite possible that they could have all migrated to the colony....

Yes, though a "colonial" HG would probably never completely ouster all other HG's, since this is not known to have ever happened anywhere. If I were to go looking for New World-unique subtypes of European HG's, I would start with the Amish of the USA, who have mostly resisted mixing over the past few hundred years. Nearly all other European immigrants have eventually mixed around and intermarried to some extent, with second-generation German-Americans marrying just-off-the-boat Irish people and having children who marry into an old Cajun family, etc. etc.

There is an interesting parallel in Historical Linguistics (which has some genetic-like tendencies) where many accents and dialects of USA English have retained vocabulary and grammatical forms that are mostly considered obsolete in the UK. For example, most Americans refer to the season preceding winter as "fall", which is an archaic poetic term in the UK. Similarly, most Americans (outside of Boston and New York City) do pronounce the so-called "postvocalic R" (e.g. "Marrrrk Carrrrterrrr, parrrrk yourrrr carrrr hearrrr in Harrrrvarrrrrd Yarrrrrd forrrrr the fairrrrr") that is more associated with rural farmer accents in England.