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Aberdeen
24-08-14, 19:33
Here's a link to a paper about DNA in the Balkans. The authors think the results verify that the Balkans area has been an important corridor for the flow of genes from the Middle East into Europe. Not exactly a surprising idea, but it's always useful to have more data about such an important area of DNA research.

www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0105090 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0105090)

Here's a copy of the abstract.

"Contemporary inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula belong to several ethnic groups of diverse cultural background. In this study, three ethnic groups from Bosnia and Herzegovina - Bosniacs, Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs - as well as the populations of Serbians, Croatians, Macedonians from the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Montenegrins and Kosovars have been characterized for the genetic variation of 660 000 genome-wide autosomal single nucleotide polymorphisms and for haploid markers. New autosomal data of the 70 individuals together with previously published data of 20 individuals from the populations of the Western Balkan region in a context of 695 samples of global range have been analysed. Comparison of the variation data of autosomal and haploid lineages of the studied Western Balkan populations reveals a concordance of the data in both sets and the genetic uniformity of the studied populations, especially of Western South-Slavic speakers. The genetic variation of Western Balkan populations reveals the continuity between the Middle East and Europe via the Balkan region and supports the scenario that one of the major routes of ancient gene flows and admixture went through the Balkan Peninsula."

Eldritch
02-09-14, 02:08
What conclusions can one draw from the article?

Aberdeen
02-09-14, 03:16
What conclusions can one draw from the article?

One can conclude from this article that the Balkans have long acted as a corridor for gene flow between Europe and the Middle East, just as one might have expected.

Angela
02-09-14, 19:51
One can conclude from this article that the Balkans have long acted as a corridor for gene flow between Europe and the Middle East, just as one might have expected.



The authors do state that as one of their major conclusions, but it seems to me that in the body of the paper itself they spend their time trying to determine if there was significant gene flow from the Near East into the Balkans during the Ottoman occupation (they determine there was not, although there were conversions) and then do a comparison of the modern national groups.

In regard to the latter, they find that there is no difference autosomally between the Bosnian Croats, the Bosnian Serbs and the Bosniaks. In terms of the other national groups, they do see a slight difference between the Bulgarians and Romanians on the one side and the western Balkans on the other, but it doesn't look to me as if the difference is very significant. (They claim that the people of Kosovo group a little apart, but I don't see it on the admixture run. There they look just like Macedonians.)

The non-Balkan populations with which they are the most similar are the North Italians and to a lesser extent the Tuscans. The Greeks seem to group sort of just south of the Tuscans. However, I think this sample is from northern Greece. I don't think there are academic samples from the Peleponesus, for example or from Crete or any of the other islands, not to mention the Pontic Greeks.

This is the admixture run:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&docid=5-vk1nKWbQgdoM&tbnid=4epXYXvc8L886M:&ved=0CAIQjBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plosone.org%2Farticle%2Finfo% 3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0105090.g002%2Flarg erimage&ei=YPcFVNrmK5G8ggSW6YLwAw&bvm=bv.74115972,d.eXY&psig=AFQjCNFa_h1RjILhKrcXX_-45jCm9v1BgA&ust=1409763538739926

6603

Sile
02-09-14, 20:44
from article

It is believed that part of the Illyrians was assimilated and the other part was forced to move south

What I have been saying for more than 2 years, illyrians are not indigenous to the balkans........unless hungaria slovenia and eastern Austria are noted as balkan


On Kosovos
other noted people from other forums note that the Kosovo are similar to the french, conclusion was that this represents the gallic/celtic invasion of the balkans and greece ( pre-roman) ...........not my opinion.
the scordisci tribe comes to mind

joeyc
02-09-14, 21:20
Funny that Bosnian Serbs cluster with Croats and Bosniacs but not with other Serbs from Serbia and Montenegro.

Eldritch
03-09-14, 14:20
Funny that Bosnian Serbs cluster with Croats and Bosniacs but not with other Serbs from Serbia and Montenegro.
Why could that be?

albanopolis
03-09-14, 15:18
from article

It is believed that part of the Illyrians was assimilated and the other part was forced to move south

What I have been saying for more than 2 years, illyrians are not indigenous to the balkans........unless hungaria slovenia and eastern Austria are noted as balkan


On Kosovos
other noted people from other forums note that the Kosovo are similar to the french, conclusion was that this represents the gallic/celtic invasion of the balkans and greece ( pre-roman) ...........not my opinion.
the scordisci tribe comes to mind

It depends how far in time one goes to be indigenous. All we know from historical documents is that Illyrians have been in the Balkans since 2000 yrs BC. They are mentioned in the "Iliad" of Homer. Having said that, they did not arrived there the day they are mentioned. It it perfect to speculate that the Illyrians could have been there 2000 other years before they were mentioned.
We also know from Homer and other Greek historians that Before Hellens arrived there was another people inhabiting the are that called themselves Pellasgus. There is linguistic evidence that Pellasgus inhabited large areas of Illyrian territories. So if you want to call Pellasgus as original inhabitants of Illyria that's fair also.
Were Illyrians genetically similar? Since Illyria covered large area and other people were living in its vicinity its also possible that genetically differences could have existed

Angela
03-09-14, 16:53
It depends how far in time one goes to be indigenous. All we know from historical documents is that Illyrians have been in the Balkans since 2000 yrs BC. They are mentioned in the "Iliad" of Homer. Having said that, they did not arrived there the day they are mentioned. It it perfect to speculate that the Illyrians could have been there 2000 other years before they were mentioned.
We also know from Homer and other Greek historians that Before Hellens arrived there was another people inhabiting the are that called themselves Pellasgus. There is linguistic evidence that Pellasgus inhabited large areas of Illyrian territories. So if you want to call Pellasgus as original inhabitants of Illyria that's fair also.
Were Illyrians genetically similar? Since Illyria covered large area and other people were living in its vicinity its also possible that genetically differences could have existed

This is the quote about the Illyrians from the paper:
"The first barbarian conquerors in the Balkans were West Goths in 410 AD [22] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0105090#pone.0 105090-Schevill1). In the 6th century, the Slavs had occupied the northern parts of the Danube basin and continued their way to the south. It is believed that part of the Illyrians was assimilated and the other part was forced to move south - into the territory of present-day Albania [19 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0105090#pone.0 105090-Stavros1)"

As Albianapolis posted, the Illyrians are mentioned as inhabiting the Balkans far earlier than 600 AD, so perhaps the quote might have been referring to the Illyrians being further north in the Balkans at the time of the "Slavic" migrations.

The source cited in the paper is Stavros L, Stoianovich T (2000) The Balkans since 1453. London: C. Hurst & Co. 5–14 pp. If someone has a copy, perhaps the context for the quote could be provided.

We won't know the genetic make-up of these ancient tribes or how much of an impact they left on the current inhabitants of their regions until we have ancient genomes from them.

Just generally, I agree that this talk of "indigenous" populations is not very helpful or informative. No population sprang from the earth of a particular place. The modern inhabitants of the Balkans, as is the case more generally in Europe and elsewhere, are the product of numerous population migrations and subsequent admixture.

Also, the differences between ethnic groups in large areas of Europe are vanishingly small. Indeed, if you look at PCA's of the global population, the differences between even different areas of Europe are very small. All of that makes the constant internecine warfare even more inexplicable than it would be in just general terms.

joeyc
03-09-14, 16:56
Why could that be?

Lack of Germanic influences in Serbia and Montenegro?

joeyc
03-09-14, 17:01
This is the quote about the Illyrians from the paper:
"The first barbarian conquerors in the Balkans were West Goths in 410 AD [22] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0105090#pone.0 105090-Schevill1). In the 6th century, the Slavs had occupied the northern parts of the Danube basin and continued their way to the south. It is believed that part of the Illyrians was assimilated and the other part was forced to move south - into the territory of present-day Albania [19 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0105090#pone.0 105090-Stavros1)"

As Albianapolis posted, the Illyrians are mentioned as inhabiting the Balkans far earlier than 600 AD, so perhaps the quote might have been referring to the Illyrians being further north in the Balkans at the time of the "Slavic" migrations.

The source cited in the paper is Stavros L, Stoianovich T (2000) The Balkans since 1453. London: C. Hurst & Co. 5–14 pp. If someone has a copy, perhaps the context for the quote could be provided.

We won't know the genetic make-up of these ancient tribes or how much of an impact they left on the current inhabitants of their regions until we have ancient genomes from them.

Just generally, I agree that this talk of "indigenous" populations is not very helpful or informative. No population sprang from the earth of a particular place. The modern inhabitants of the Balkans, as is the case more generally in Europe and elsewhere, are the product of numerous population migrations and subsequent admixture.

Also, the differences between ethnic groups in large areas of Europe are vanishingly small. Indeed, if you look at PCA's of the global population, the differences between even different areas of Europe are very small. All of that makes the constant internecine warfare even more inexplicable than it would be in just general terms.

The Albanians and the Greeks have quite a lot of recent Slavic ancestry. Alboz Y-dna is the result of a massive bottle neck and does not reflect in the autosomal dna.

albanopolis
03-09-14, 18:11
The Albanians and the Greeks have quite a lot of recent Slavic ancestry. Alboz Y-dna is the result of a massive bottle neck and does not reflect in the autosomal dna.
Kosovo Albanians and Albanians of Macedonia have minimal Slavic gene infusion or unimportant amounts. South Albanians in the other hand appear to have Slavic mixture. So do Greeks. The genetic difference of Crete (an isolated place) and Continental Greece is striking.
One Albanian historian I heard on Tv was saying that in 11 century ad Greek population had reached minimum historical records. Diseases and wars are mentioned as causes.They were recruiting Southern Albanians to repopulate some areas and as such we have the Arvanites of today.

Eldritch
03-09-14, 18:18
Lack of Germanic influences in Serbia and Montenegro?
Not much germanic in the balkans?? According to PCA plot of paper Croats are clearly more Northern than both Serbs or Bosniaks.

Must be Slavic ancestry.

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g003&representation=PNG_L

joeyc
03-09-14, 19:54
Kosovo Albanians and Albanians of Macedonia have minimal Slavic gene infusion or unimportant amounts. South Albanians in the other hand appear to have Slavic mixture. So do Greeks. The genetic difference of Crete (an isolated place) and Continental Greece is striking.
One Albanian historian I heard on Tv was saying that in 11 century ad Greek population had reached minimum historical records. Diseases and wars are mentioned as causes.They were recruiting Southern Albanians to repopulate some areas and as such we have the Arvanites of today.

Albania has shit loads of Slavic ancestry. So do some mainland Greeks.

You are talking about Y-DNA which does not correlate well with autosomal dna in the case of bottlenecked populations like Kosovars.


Not much germanic in the balkans?? According to PCA plot of paper Croats are clearly more Northern than both Serbs or Bosniaks.

Must be Slavic ancestry.



Croat samples are from Zagreb near the border with Slovenia. Anyway we were talking about Serbs from Serbia and Montenegro and the reason why they don't cluster with Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats and Bosniacs.

joeyc
03-09-14, 19:56
Does anyone knows when Eurogenes will release the admixture proportions of these new samples?

They already have them on their PCA plot.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.it/2014/08/genetic-structure-in-western-balkans.html

Angela
03-09-14, 20:11
Albania has shit loads of Slavic ancestry. So do some mainland Greeks.

You are talking about Y-DNA which does not correlate well with autosomal dna in the case of bottlenecked populations like Kosovars.



Croat samples are from Zagreb near the border with Slovenia. Anyway we were talking about Serbs from Serbia and Montenegro and the reason why they don't cluster with Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats and Bosniacs.

"Lots of" and "loads of" are subjective comments. (I could also do without the profanity, if you please.)

If, in terms of the Greeks, you are speaking of the percentages mentioned in the Hellenthall et al paper, I would recommend taking the results with a large grain of salt as to precise amounts of admixture, for the reasons enumerated here:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/02/human-admixture-common-in-human-history.html

I don't want to take the thread off topic, but I can illustrate what I mean by using the Tuscans as an example. I highly doubt that in the centuries following the fall of Rome, the Tuscan population was still totally Cypriot like, and then masses of "French like" people invaded, so many that their genetic signature forms more than 60% of the total. Rather, the formation of the Tuscans was through multiple population flows into the area both from the southeast and the generally north and northwest regions of Europe, perhaps starting with the Indo-Europeans, and continuing into the first milennium B.C. with the Gallic invasions.

These kinds of analyses are as imprecise as 'admixture' for detecting exact amounts of gene flow to be attributed to certain specific migrations and subsequent admixture. Only actual dna from the populations involved is going to give us that kind of information.

Ed. As another example of the care that should be taken when trying to interpret these kinds of analyses, the PCA plot provided upthread shows some Tuscans and some northern Greeks plotting in roughly the same place, yet Italy was not at all affected by the Slavic migrations. The placement is merely the result of input generally from more northern into more southern areas of Europe after the Neolithic.

albanopolis
03-09-14, 20:26
Albania has shit loads of Slavic ancestry. So do some mainland Greeks.

You are talking about Y-DNA which does not correlate well with autosomal dna in the case of bottlenecked populations like Kosovars.



Croat samples are from Zagreb near the border with Slovenia. Anyway we were talking about Serbs from Serbia and Montenegro and the reason why they don't cluster with Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats and Bosniacs.
Northern Albanians and Kosovans are physically different from Slavs.
You don't need a trained eye to tell without knowing who is who.
So does not look look like a lot of gene exchanges.
Slavs in the other hand have loads of Albanian genes since they absorbed Illyrian population of the areas they occupied. High E V13 among Serbs, Bosnians is because of that. So I would say that Ballkan Slavs are a hybrid of a Polish like person with an Albanian.
Albanians did not intermarry with Slavs because they lived in separate geographic areas.
In south Albania and Northern Greece I think there were some Bullgarian settlements in 8th and 9th century.

joeyc
03-09-14, 20:43
Northern Albanians and Kosovans are physically different from Slavs.
You don't need a trained eye to tell without knowing who is who.
So does not look look like a lot of gene exchanges.
Slavs in the other hand have loads of Albanian genes since they absorbed Illyrian population of the areas they occupied. High E V13 among Serbs, Bosnians is because of that. So I would say that Ballkan Slavs are a hybrid of a Polish like person with an Albanian.
Albanians did not intermarry with Slavs because they lived in separate geographic areas.
In south Albania and Northern Greece I think there were some Bullgarian settlements in 8th and 9th century.

Macedonians and Bulgarians are much closer to Kosovars than to Serbs or Bosniac. And I am not even including Croats/Slovenes here.



"Lots of" and "loads of" are subjective comments. (I could also do without the profanity, if you please.)

If, in terms of the Greeks, you are speaking of the percentages mentioned in the Hellenthall et al paper, I would recommend taking the results with a large grain of salt as to precise amounts of admixture, for the reasons enumerated here:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/02/human-admixture-common-in-human-history.html

I don't want to take the thread off topic, but I can illustrate what I mean by using the Tuscans as an example. I highly doubt that in the centuries following the fall of Rome, the Tuscan population was still totally Cypriot like, and then masses of "French like" people invaded, so many that their genetic signature forms more than 60% of the total. Rather, the formation of the Tuscans was through multiple population flows into the area both from the southeast and the generally north and northwest regions of Europe, perhaps starting with the Indo-Europeans, and continuing into the first milennium B.C. with the Gallic invasions.

These kinds of analyses are as imprecise as 'admixture' for detecting exact amounts of gene flow to be attributed to certain specific migrations and subsequent admixture. Only actual dna from the populations involved is going to give us that kind of information.

Ed. As another example of the care that should be taken when trying to interpret these kinds of analyses, the PCA plot provided upthread shows some Tuscans and some northern Greeks plotting in roughly the same place, yet Italy was not at all affected by the Slavic migrations. The placement is merely the result of input generally from more northern into more southern areas of Europe after the Neolithic.

Hellenthal et al. is a joke. Do they really pretend to track migration dates with such accuracy?

They also give no information regarding the samples they have used in the study. Hahahaha.

Eldritch
03-09-14, 20:52
Croat samples are from Zagreb near the border with Slovenia. Anyway we were talking about Serbs from Serbia and Montenegro and the reason why they don't cluster with Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats and Bosniacs.
Zagreb is the capital, it would be logical to take the samples from there.

Sile
03-09-14, 20:56
It depends how far in time one goes to be indigenous. All we know from historical documents is that Illyrians have been in the Balkans since 2000 yrs BC. They are mentioned in the "Iliad" of Homer. Having said that, they did not arrived there the day they are mentioned. It it perfect to speculate that the Illyrians could have been there 2000 other years before they were mentioned.
We also know from Homer and other Greek historians that Before Hellens arrived there was another people inhabiting the are that called themselves Pellasgus. There is linguistic evidence that Pellasgus inhabited large areas of Illyrian territories. So if you want to call Pellasgus as original inhabitants of Illyria that's fair also.
Were Illyrians genetically similar? Since Illyria covered large area and other people were living in its vicinity its also possible that genetically differences could have existed

first we need to determine what is the border in Europe for the term balkans.

next, we have ancient historical records that the Illyrians where no further south of the drin river in montenegro circa 400BC..........unless greek and macedonian historians where lying in their makeup of ancient macedonia and epirote people.

next we know that coastal modern albania and epirote lands was the home of ancient Dorians, archeology of Appolonia has also reveal this ..plus ...historians claim Dorians came from the north to replace the mycenean race in the greek southern balkans, they even replaced them in crete and rhodes who where myceaneans that replaced the minoans in crete beforehand.

And Finally, yes I do believe in the theory that the term "illyrian" is not for one race or tribe but for many different tribes ,............it was a geographical term for people who lived in an area..........same as being called british for people living in the british isles..................one reason we have never found any language associated with the illyrians

joeyc
03-09-14, 21:02
Zagreb is the capital, it would be logical to take the samples from there.

This does not change the fact that those samples are representative only of Croats living close to the Slovenian border.

Yetos
03-09-14, 21:14
an interesting point, which I read in the forum is a post from an old member, (which I missed him)
his name was Zanipolo,
he notice the differences among mtDNA and Y-DNA in some parts of Balkans,
he expressed that are areas that y-Dna is very low as Slavic but mtDNA is very high, giving numbers like 60% of Slavic mtDNA to population that should have about 20%.


a good question is,

if some Y-DNA is neolithic in Balkans, then sould also have simmilar mt-DNA at a normal analogy,
do we see such an analogy? where we do, and where we do not see this, why?

King Bardhyl
03-09-14, 21:35
first we need to determine what is the border in Europe for the term balkans.

next, we have ancient historical records that the Illyrians where no further south of the drin river in montenegro circa 400BC..........unless greek and macedonian historians where lying in their makeup of ancient macedonia and epirote people.

next we know that coastal modern albania and epirote lands was the home of ancient Dorians, archeology of Appolonia has also reveal this ..plus ...historians claim Dorians came from the north to replace the mycenean race in the greek southern balkans, they even replaced them in crete and rhodes who where myceaneans that replaced the minoans in crete beforehand.

And Finally, yes I do believe in the theory that the term "illyrian" is not for one race or tribe but for many different tribes ,............it was a geographical term for people who lived in an area..........same as being called british for people living in the british isles..................one reason we have never found any language associated with the illyrians

The ancient writers unequivocally described Epirotes as barbarians; in all probability, this term is not meant to show Epirotes as backward Greeks as many modern Greeks claim. Judging by their language, customs, traditions and the way of life (which differed completely from that of Greece proper), ancients reckoned them to be 'barbarians':
Strabo, Geography, 7. 7. 1

Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names—Cecrops, Godrus, Aïclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians—Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes—Epeirotic tribes.

καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ὀνομάτων δὲ ἐνίων τὸ βάρβαρον ἐμφαίνεται, Κέκροψ καὶ Κόδρος καὶ Ἄικλος καὶ Κόθος καὶ Δρύμας καὶ Κρίνακος. οἱ δὲ Θρᾷκες καὶ Ἰλλυριοὶ καὶ Ἠπειρῶται καὶ μέχρι νῦν ἐν πλευραῖς εἰσιν· ἔτι μέντοι μᾶλλον πρότερον ἢ νῦν, ὅπου γε καὶ τῆς ἐν τῷ παρόντι Ἑλλάδος ἀναντιλέκτως οὔσης τὴν πολλὴν οἱ βάρβαροι ἔχουσι, Μακεδονίαν μὲν Θρᾷκες καί τινα μέρη τῆς Θετταλίας, Ἀκαρνανίας δὲ καὶ Αἰτωλίας τὰ ἄνω Θεσπρωτοὶ καὶ Κασσωπαῖοι καὶ Ἀμφίλοχοι καὶ Μολοττοὶ καὶ Ἀθαμᾶνες, Ἠπειρωτικὰ ἔθνη.

Robert Browning's Medieval and Modern Greek, 1983, p. 2, n. 7
"The language of the Epirotes is repeatedly described in antiquity as non-Greek (Thucydides 1.47, 1.51, 2.80, Strabo, 8.1.3). Yes the Epirotes were connected with the origin of various Greek communities. There may well have been an ethnic and linguistic mixture in Epirus, some tribes speaking Greek, others Illyrian or some other language (cf. Hammond (1967) 423; Katičić (1976) 120-7)"

Graham Shipley's The Greek World after Alexander, 2000, p. 111
"The Arrian passage reminds us of an important fact of Macedonia's location: its neighbours - Thracians, Paionians, Epirotes and Illyrians - were primarily non-urban peoples with more or less hellenized elites."

Michael Grant, Rachel Kitzinger, Civilization of the ancient Mediterranean: Greece and Rome: Volume 1, 1988, p. 203:

"On the other hand, Thucydides (1.47.3, 5o-3) and Strabo (7.7.1) call the Epirotes barbaroi: only two of Thucydides' (2.80) northern chieftains have Greek names and many Epirote tribes did not speak Greek (Strabo 7.7.1) and even enjoyed...

Ronald Edward Latham, In quest of civilization, Jarrolds limited, 1946, p. 247, chapter "Trying to be Greeks":

On the fringe of Hellas, and not yet fully accepted as Greeks even in name, lived the Epirotes and the Macedonians. Though these were being progressively Hellenized by contact with Greek colonies on the coast and their rulers claimed descent from legendary Greek heroes, the Greeks still regarded them, as the more civilized Chinese regarded the Ch'in,
From a classical Greek point of view, the northwest of Greece was inhabited by a bunch of barbarian tribes, in which the fifth-century sources are nor really interested. They contradict each other about which nations could be classified as western Greeks, Epirotes, or Illyrians. It does not really help us that the tribes did not leave behind written texts. Several sanctuaries, like Dodona, appear to have been hellenized quite early, but the people of the northwest retained some archaic traits. Several tribes were led by kings, something that was very unusual in the Greek world. On the other hand, the nearby Macedonians shared some of these characteristics.

All these specific characteristics were shared by the Illyrians as well. This gives at least theoretically some room for connecting Epirotes with them in terms of ethnicity.

'In October 1984, 70 historians and archaeologists from Greece, Albania, Romania, Italy and several other countries of Europe convened in Clermont-Ferrand, France. They held a colloquium with a group of Specialists in ancient history who were working there under the direction of Proffesor Pierre Kaban, the renowned expert on Epirus. They compared studies on the tribal and ethnic groups which gradually organised into urban life, then federated into state organisations. They compared juridical institutions such as family right of ownership, the role of the woman in the family and the procedure in freeing slaves. Similarities of Epirotes centers like Dodona and those of Southern Illyria were evidenced by the layout, architecture, and political organisation, also the circulation of coins, the structure of groves, the burial rites and articles found in the tumuli. But scholars concluded that from early antiquity until the Roman times THAT CULTURE OF SOUTHERN ILLYRIA AND EPIRUS, INCLUDING MOLOSSIA, WAS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF CLASSICAL GREECE AS FOUND IN ATHENS AND SPARTA' (Jaques 1995:80/81)

Bibliography:

Edwin.E.Jaques 1995 'The Albanians: An ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present'

According to an earlier source (Theopompus) in Epirus lived fourteen tribes. Of course he did not define the ethnicity of them but the later sources does distinguish Epirotes from the Greeks.

"In later times more than half of Aetolia ceased to be Grecian, and without doubt adopted the manners and language of the Illyrians, from which point the Athamanes, an Epirote and Illyrian nation, pressed into the south of Thessaly. "

The Historians' History of the World: Greece to the Peloponnesian war
Henry Smith Williams - 1904 - p. 111
It has been thought by some scholars that Illyrian presence is to be detected even in Aetolia and Acarnania. They based their opinion on thorough analysis of Thucydides's paragraph which recognizes a large non-Greek element among Aetolians:

«τὸ γὰρ ἔθνος μέγα μὲν εἶναι τὸ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν καὶ μάχιμον, οἰκοῦν δὲ κατὰ κώμας ἀτειχίστους, καὶ ταύτας διὰ πολλοῦ, καὶ σκευῇ ψιλῇ χρώμενον οὐ χαλεπὸν ἀπέφαινον, πρὶν ξυμβοηθῆσαι, καταστραφῆναι. ἐπιχειρεῖν δ᾿ ἐκέλευον πρῶτον μὲν Ἀποδωτοῖς, ἔπειτα δὲ Ὀφιονεῦσι καὶ μετὰ τούτους Εὐρυτᾶσιν, ὅπερ μέγιστον μέρος ἐστὶ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν, ἀγνωστότατοι δὲ γλῶσσαν καὶ ὠμοφάγοι εἰσίν, ὡς λέγονται» (ΘΟΥΚΥΔΙΔΗΣ III.94)

III,94: The Aetolian nation, although numerous and warlike, yet dwelt in un-walled villages scattered far apart, and had nothing but light armor, and might, according to the Messenians, be subdued without much difficulty before succors could arrive. The plan which they recommended was to attack first the Apodotians, next the Ophionians, and after these the Eurytanians, who are the largest tribe in Aetolia, and speak, as is said, a language exceedingly difficult to understand, and eat their flesh raw.
The 'Barbarians' to which Thucydides is referring are beyond any doubt, Illyrians.

Aetolia (in the Roman sense of the name) had not been greatly affected by Hellenic civilization when the Romans conquered it. Five Aetolian cities, evidently Hellenic and distinguished, figure in Homer. But Thucydides and the Greeks of the classical age regarded the Aetolians as barbaric. […] They extended their rule over tribes to the north whom the Greeks of the great age looked upon as savages. In the pages of Livy, Philip V of Macedon is made to admit the Hellenic character of some Aetolians, but to deny that the greater part of those who bore the name were Greeks. The Aetolians were natural enemies of the more civilized Greek peoples…


Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that “Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Woodthorpe_Tarn

King Bardhyl
03-09-14, 21:45
A History of Greece from the Earliest Period to the Close of the, volume 3, George Grote, 1882, p. 417: “…the coast of Epirus from the entrance of the Ambrakian gulf northward to the Akrokeraunian promontory, we shall find it discouraging to Grecian colonization. (…) we may understand why the Grecian emigrants omitted this unprofitable tract, and passed on either northward to the maritime plains of Illyria, or westward to Italy. In the time of Herodotus and Thucydides, there seems to have been no Hellenic settlement between Ambrakia and Apollonia.

King Bardhyl
03-09-14, 21:46
The Illyrians: history and culture, Aleksandar Stipčević, 1977: “Willy Borgeaud, a most persistent and tireless searcher among Illyrian remains in Greece, asserted that Boeotia, Acarnania, Aetolia, Argos and Sparta were full of Illyrian toponymes.”

King Bardhyl
03-09-14, 22:04
(https://archive.org/details/historygreekrev02finlgoog) And I will conclude with a philhellenes:
George Finlay (https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22George+Finlay%22)
History of the Greek Revolution (1861 https://archive.org/details/historygreekrev02finlgoog
The Albanian forms a distinct race among the nations
of Europe. They have been supposed by some to be
the representatives of the Pelasgians. They call them-
selves Shkipetar. Some suppose them to have occu-
pied the regions they now inhabit before the days of
Homer, and that they are the lineal descendants of
the race to which the ancient Epirots and Macedo-
nians belonged as cognate tribes. Alexander the Great
must, according to these archaeologists, have spoken
an ancient Albanian dialect at his riotous banquets
with his Macedonian officers.

King Bardhyl
03-09-14, 22:13
From genetics do not understand, but I hope I help you with these references in order to have a clearer picture.

IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

GJERGJ KASTRIOTI SCANDERBEG

Yetos
03-09-14, 22:38
I am tired of this guy,

someone explain him that Albanians have 60% Slavic mtDNA.

Sile
03-09-14, 22:47
Lebrok

move the King's posts to another thread .......i do not want to get the usual blame for this

Ike
03-09-14, 22:47
This does not change the fact that those samples are representative only of Croats living close to the Slovenian border.

Exactly. Dalmatians, whose genetics is more close to Bosniak and Serbs gravitate towards the shore cities like Dubrovnik, Split, etc. They are not rightfully represented here, I've marked them in orange.On the other hand samples from Serbia are in fact from Belgrade, but Belgrade is the only center of gravitation inside Serbia, because it's the sole richest city, it covers the whole turquoise area. That's why people from poor parts of South and East Serbia end up there. As far as Bosnian results are concerned: Zavidovici, Zepce, Maglaj, Livno, etc.. those are extremely small places with low population income.

These results are 100% expected, and I would have drawn them the same even if you didn't show me the samples...


http://i62.tinypic.com/4hdwee.jpg

Eldritch
03-09-14, 22:50
I am pretty sure that from Zagreb were tested people from all over Croatia, not only natives of the area, even on Lazaridis Croats were quite ANE + WHG

King Bardhyl
03-09-14, 22:55
I am tired of this guy,

someone explain him that Albanians have 60% Slavic mtDNA.


Do not discuss about these things, you do not know the history of Greece to 200 years ago.

King Bardhyl
03-09-14, 22:58
first we need to determine what is the border in Europe for the term balkans.

next, we have ancient historical records that the Illyrians where no further south of the drin river in montenegro circa 400BC..........unless greek and macedonian historians where lying in their makeup of ancient macedonia and epirote people.

next we know that coastal modern albania and epirote lands was the home of ancient Dorians, archeology of Appolonia has also reveal this ..plus ...historians claim Dorians came from the north to replace the mycenean race in the greek southern balkans, they even replaced them in crete and rhodes who where myceaneans that replaced the minoans in crete beforehand.

And Finally, yes I do believe in the theory that the term "illyrian" is not for one race or tribe but for many different tribes ,............it was a geographical term for people who lived in an area..........same as being called british for people living in the british isles..................one reason we have never found any language associated with the illyrians

In all these posts I tried to explain that your idea was wrong.

albanopolis
04-09-14, 00:24
first we need to determine what is the border in Europe for the term balkans.

next, we have ancient historical records that the Illyrians where no further south of the drin river in montenegro circa 400BC..........unless greek and macedonian historians where lying in their makeup of ancient macedonia and epirote people.

next we know that coastal modern albania and epirote lands was the home of ancient Dorians, archeology of Appolonia has also reveal this ..plus ...historians claim Dorians came from the north to replace the mycenean race in the greek southern balkans, they even replaced them in crete and rhodes who where myceaneans that replaced the minoans in crete beforehand.

And Finally, yes I do believe in the theory that the term "illyrian" is not for one race or tribe but for many different tribes ,............it was a geographical term for people who lived in an area..........same as being called british for people living in the british isles..................one reason we have never found any language associated with the illyrians
Illyrians were mentioned in Homer's "Iliad" 2000 yrs bc. Get the book and take a look. I have seen it myself in English translation. 4oo bc is Alexander's of Philips time and Illyrians were very active in the area.
The term Illyria its not a random term with no specific meaning. For Albanian speakers its immediately noticeable because it means a " free man". Go to google translation and write free, see what do you get in Albanian.
Since there was severe slavery in Greece and Italy in antique times Illyrians took pride of being free and named their land, the land of free man(not slavery).
Were Illyrians a homogeneous people? Its hard to say. I also tend to believe that Illyrians were majority in the area but among them should have been other population living until they mixed.
Even today Albania is not homogeneous. There are pockets of Slavs, Vlahs, Greeks.

Sile
04-09-14, 01:02
Illyrians were mentioned in Homer's "Iliad" 2000 yrs bc. Get the book and take a look. I have seen it myself in English translation. 4oo bc is Alexander's of Philips time and Illyrians were very active in the area.
The term Illyria its not a random term with no specific meaning. For Albanian speakers its immediately noticeable because it means a " free man". Go to google translation and write free, see what do you get in Albanian.
Since there was severe slavery in Greece and Italy in antique times Illyrians took pride of being free and named their land, the land of free man(not slavery).
Were Illyrians a homogeneous people? Its hard to say. I also tend to believe that Illyrians were majority in the area but among them should have been other population living until they mixed.
Even today Albania is not homogeneous. There are pockets of Slavs, Vlahs, Greeks.

I again state .............where is the balkan border of Europe

I again state ................where is Illyrian script ........link me a site


scarce material finding pertaining to Illyrian language and culture, It has been quite a while since the scholarly Illyrian studies became overshadowed by the politically biased interpretations and skirmishing. Needless to say, this kind of approach is not only far from being scholarly, but it also created political stereotypes andcircular definitions pertaining to Illyrians. The very word Illyrian has been so contaminated generally by political interference that any mentioning of it must necessarily engage some extreme political skirmishing of the two extremely opposing views, one claiming that Illyrians have absolutely nothing to do with modern inhabitants of former Illyrian lands (specifically Albanians, who claim Illyrian descent), and the other favoring the idea that there was a direct and absolutely uninterrupted development of Illyrian society into that of modern Albanian. Again, the truth might be somewhere in between. In addition to onomastic material pertaining to ancient Illyrians, there is a number of cultural and traditional elements in Bosnia that have been connected through comparative studies with the culture of ancient Illyrians. However, the scarce material and written historical records available so far does not allow us to draw any approximate conclusion as to the territorial extent of Illyrian language and culture, and the extent of the survival of Illyrian language and culture and their assimilations into contemporary ethnic and regional cultures of the Balkans.

above from 2013

Dalmat
04-09-14, 09:39
Exactly. Dalmatians, whose genetics is more close to Bosniak and Serbs gravitate towards the shore cities like Dubrovnik, Split, etc. They are not rightfully represented here, I've marked them in orange.On the other hand samples from Serbia are in fact from Belgrade, but Belgrade is the only center of gravitation inside Serbia, because it's the sole richest city, it covers the whole turquoise area. That's why people from poor parts of South and East Serbia end up there. As far as Bosnian results are concerned: Zavidovici, Zepce, Maglaj, Livno, etc.. those are extremely small places with low population income.

These results are 100% expected, and I would have drawn them the same even if you didn't show me the samples...


http://i62.tinypic.com/4hdwee.jpg

not true, and bosnian croats cluster with croats, and serbs dont cluster with bosniancs, but with romanians and bulgarians, only bosnian serbs are near bosniacs because of serbification, and mixing

Serbs=east balkan

share roots with bulgarians and romanians because of thracian natives

joeyc
04-09-14, 10:53
Not really. Serbs from Serbia/ Montenegro are much closer to Zagreb Croats than to Romanians and Bularians. People from Bosnia(Muslims, Catholics and Orthodox) are intermediate between Croats and Serbs but closer to the former.

Dalmat
04-09-14, 11:49
Not really. Serbs from Serbia/ Montenegro are much closer to Zagreb Croats than to Romanians and Bularians. People from Bosnia(Muslims, Catholics and Orthodox) are intermediate between Croats and Serbs but closer to the former.

no they are not, there is huge overlap between serbs and rum/bulgarians, while only few stretch to the edge of bosniaks, probably bosnan serbs who today live in serbia, because there is lots of migration of bosnian serbs to serbia

Besides their native base was the same, tracians, during age of byzantium, serbs were belived to be tribali by greek historians, a tracian tribe, also first Serbian state Rascia is teritorialy the same Tracian tribali teritory

Yetos
04-09-14, 11:53
I again state .............where is the balkan border of Europe

I again state ................where is Illyrian script ........link me a site


scarce material finding pertaining to Illyrian language and culture, It has been quite a while since the scholarly Illyrian studies became overshadowed by the politically biased interpretations and skirmishing. Needless to say, this kind of approach is not only far from being scholarly, but it also created political stereotypes andcircular definitions pertaining to Illyrians. The very word Illyrian has been so contaminated generally by political interference that any mentioning of it must necessarily engage some extreme political skirmishing of the two extremely opposing views, one claiming that Illyrians have absolutely nothing to do with modern inhabitants of former Illyrian lands (specifically Albanians, who claim Illyrian descent), and the other favoring the idea that there was a direct and absolutely uninterrupted development of Illyrian society into that of modern Albanian. Again, the truth might be somewhere in between. In addition to onomastic material pertaining to ancient Illyrians, there is a number of cultural and traditional elements in Bosnia that have been connected through comparative studies with the culture of ancient Illyrians. However, the scarce material and written historical records available so far does not allow us to draw any approximate conclusion as to the territorial extent of Illyrian language and culture, and the extent of the survival of Illyrian language and culture and their assimilations into contemporary ethnic and regional cultures of the Balkans.

above from 2013


the mountain Aimos peninsula is strange,
original term borders are the ex-Thracian expansion, Serbia Bulgaria Slavic Makedonia, half Romania, North N/East Greece, European Turkey Kossovo but not Albania and possibly Bosnia (East of Dinaric Alps to Balck sea, south of Istros/Donav to mt Olympos.
Generally today is modern Greece Albania Kossovo Bulgaria Serbia Bosnia Croatia Romania, Slavic Makedonia, European Turkey
the under the Istros (Donau) to Crete.

but due to many nation relation history and neighborhood influence, political
we consider Balkans Greece Albania Kossovo Bulgaria Slavic Makedonia Romania Serbia Bosnia/Erzegovina Croatia European Turkey, minor Asian Turkey, and count also Slovenia Moldova, and also Hungary, Cyprus the south East of Italy, the minor Asia coast of today Turkey although they are not geographically,
for example Slovenia is out of geographical AImos paninsula, but as south Slavic is consider related and was for years connected with both Balkans and central Europe so you can count her as member, but not to the core of balkans

Dalmat
04-09-14, 12:03
I again state .............where is the balkan border of Europe

I again state ................where is Illyrian script ........link me a site


scarce material finding pertaining to Illyrian language and culture, It has been quite a while since the scholarly Illyrian studies became overshadowed by the politically biased interpretations and skirmishing. Needless to say, this kind of approach is not only far from being scholarly, but it also created political stereotypes andcircular definitions pertaining to Illyrians. The very word Illyrian has been so contaminated generally by political interference that any mentioning of it must necessarily engage some extreme political skirmishing of the two extremely opposing views, one claiming that Illyrians have absolutely nothing to do with modern inhabitants of former Illyrian lands (specifically Albanians, who claim Illyrian descent), and the other favoring the idea that there was a direct and absolutely uninterrupted development of Illyrian society into that of modern Albanian. Again, the truth might be somewhere in between. In addition to onomastic material pertaining to ancient Illyrians, there is a number of cultural and traditional elements in Bosnia that have been connected through comparative studies with the culture of ancient Illyrians. However, the scarce material and written historical records available so far does not allow us to draw any approximate conclusion as to the territorial extent of Illyrian language and culture, and the extent of the survival of Illyrian language and culture and their assimilations into contemporary ethnic and regional cultures of the Balkans.

above from 2013
Ilirian(or west Balkan people) origin is Carpathian mountains, basically todays Czech and Slovakia, 1000 bc they entered west balkans


Area was connected trough vučedol culture before
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Vucedol_culture_map.png


Iliran was greek/roman exonim, these tribes never called themselves ilirian, probably comes from lira, a measurement unit for currency, leter on we had Italian money lira which comes from that, i-lira, without coins, probably to designate tribes who didnt use money for trading, which probably meant roman or greek coins were worthless to them.

No money or coinage was found in west balkan, only later roman era coinage when they were already part of roman empire

joeyc
04-09-14, 14:44
no they are not, there is huge overlap between serbs and rum/bulgarians, while only few stretch to the edge of bosniaks, probably bosnan serbs who today live in serbia, because there is lots of migration of bosnian serbs to serbia

Besides their native base was the same, tracians, during age of byzantium, serbs were belived to be tribali by greek historians, a tracian tribe, also first Serbian state Rascia is teritorialy the same Tracian tribali teritory

That's not what the actual study says. Look better at the ADMIXTURE analysis.

Ike
04-09-14, 15:06
not true, and bosnian croats cluster with croats, and serbs dont cluster with bosniancs, but with romanians and bulgarians, only bosnian serbs are near bosniacs because of serbification, and mixing

Serbs=east balkan

share roots with bulgarians and romanians because of thracian natives

Nonsense. That would make Serbians being Bulgaro-Romanian in the beginning. And who would be Serbs then? The people who settled in Croatian and Bosnia according to DAI? So in 19th century we would have Croatia and Bosnia which would be ethnic Serbs, and Serbia which would be ethnic Romanians and Bulgarians. And that would yield for Bulgarians and Romanians in Serbia thinking that they are Serbs, and doing Serbification of people who are real ethnic Serbs that were Croatized in Bosnia?!

Angela
04-09-14, 15:26
Nonsense. That would make Serbians being Bulgaro-Romanian in the beginning. And who would be Serbs then? The people who settled in Croatian and Bosnia according to DAI? So in 19th century we would have Croatia and Bosnia which would be ethnic Serbs, and Serbia which would be ethnic Romanians and Bulgarians. And that would yield for Bulgarians and Romanians in Serbia thinking that they are Serbs, and doing Serbification of people who are real ethnic Serbs that were Croatized in Bosnia?!

Are we all looking at the same admixture analysis?

Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats, Bosniaks and Croatians are virtually indistinguishable.

Serbs and Montenegrins are virtually indistinguishable and differ from the prior group only in having slightly more "Near East". (which of course is not Near East at all, other than that it is a marker of the Neolithic (EEF), which the authors have proved. Some "EEF" is also, of course, present in the Med component and the "eastern European" one as well.)

Macedonians, Bulgarians and Romanians have a little more, and Kosovars a little more yet.

However, to the eye of an outsider, and, I would think, to geneticists, these are extremely minor differences, especially in terms of the western Balkans. Political and religious divisions are superimposed upon a genetic similarity.

I also don't see how this bickering over the precise boundaries and movements of ancient tribes is helpful. We have the admixture analysis of the modern inhabitants to tell us about similarities and differences. How the very similar sub-clusters were formed is a different issue and will only be solved by ancient dna.

King Bardhyl
04-09-14, 21:02
I am tired of this guy,

someone explain him that Albanians have 60% Slavic mtDNA.


Really?
http://ellines-albanoi.blogspot.com/
Here you can find answers of your questions. Starting from Leon Zguro, Klada, Shpata, Kolokotronis, Diakos, Miauli,Mani etc, etc, etc, a very long list. All this most important personalities of your country with, as you say "60% Slavic mtDN".
Very curious the story of your country.
Sorry it`s not in english, is in greek maybe Yetos will translate something for us.
You should thank me Yetos.

Yetos
04-09-14, 22:18
Really?
http://ellines-albanoi.blogspot.com/
Here you can find answers of your questions. Starting from Leon Zguro, Klada, Shpata, Kolokotronis, Diakos, Miauli,Mani etc, etc, etc, a very long list. All this most important personalities of your country with, as you say "60% Slavic mtDN".
Very curious the story of your country.
Sorry it`s not in english, is in greek maybe Yetos will translate something for us.
You should thank me Yetos.


pfffffffff
right all were Albanians, no Greeks, are you satisfied now?
even Pontian Greeks origin from Albania, Gracani are from Albania, and Alexandreia was Albanian community, even karamanlides were Albanians from Karaman Turkey,
Greek is not a language but Albanian dialect,
does this satisfy you?
you made kolokotronis an Albanian although in his memories say different, but ok he was,
Are you satisfied?

@moderator
move this crup somewhere else,

King Bardhyl
04-09-14, 23:11
even Pontian Greeks origin from Albania, Gracani are from Albania, and Alexandreia was Albanian community, even karamanlides were Albanians from Karaman Turkey,


No, pls.They keep for yourself no need for them. Different from us.

King Bardhyl
04-09-14, 23:49
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup - Argentina v Greece (http://www.google.al/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDUQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fiba.com%2Fbasketballworldcup %2F2014%2F0409%2FArgentinavGreece&ei=ptwIVI2IBaLA7AatloCYCg&usg=AFQjCNHNBVwWdqXuQha1bL6NjMajPd6RZw&bvm=bv.74649129,d.d2s) 71-79Congratulations Greece
Best player for Greece Kaimakoglou, in the foto:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nzU49PGQyIQ/0.jpg


EtymologyKaimakoglou


The word kaymak has Central Asian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia) origins, possibly formed from the verb kayl-mak, which means melt and molding of metal in Mongolian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_language).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaymak#cite_note-nisanyansozluk.com-2) The first written records of the word kaymak is in the well-known book of Mahmud al-Kashgari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmud_al-Kashgari), Kutadgu Bilig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutadgu_Bilig).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaymak#cite_note-nisanyansozluk.com-2) The word remains as kaylgmak in Mongolian, and with small variations in Turkic languages as qaymaq in Azerbaijani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_language),[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaymak#cite_note-3) qaymoq in Uzbek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbek_language),[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaymak#cite_note-4) каймак in Kyrgyz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrgyz_language),[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaymak#cite_note-5) kaymak in Turkmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmen_language).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaymak#cite_note-nisanyansozluk.com-2) However in these languages noun form of the word is not reserved for the produced end product, but it refers to the clot of any milk formed after boiling.

Oglou is turkish= son english

Yetos
05-09-14, 00:06
No, pls.They keep for yourself no need for them. Different from us.



and I? i am living in central Makedonia what am I?

plz tell me what am I? :grin:

King Bardhyl
05-09-14, 08:32
and I? i am living in central Makedonia what am I?

plz tell me what am I? :grin:

Probably, 80% an proud discendent of Zhelyu zheliev and 20% Sarakachan, or kutchovlah.

King Bardhyl
05-09-14, 08:36
and I? i am living in central Makedonia what am I?

plz tell me what am I? :grin:

Your case is very complicate, because after Turkey , Greece is the most multiethnic country in Europe.

Yetos
05-09-14, 10:04
Probably, 80% an proud discendent of Zhelyu zheliev and 20% Sarakachan, or kutchovlah.

HAHAHAHA

wow
I am a Slav MAkedonian and Aromani? wow, next time I 'ltry to remember, I must learn Bulgarian and Armanesti.
in our village live 2 Arbanites from Moschopolis,
what are they?

King Bardhyl
05-09-14, 10:22
HAHAHAHA

wow
I am a Slav MAkedonian and Aromani? wow, next time I 'ltry to remember, I must learn Bulgarian and Armanesti.
in our village live 2 Arbanites from Moschopolis,
what are they?

Arvaniti.
Tuc meta,meta tao.

Yetos
05-09-14, 11:30
Arvaniti.
Tuc meta,meta tao.

only we name them Arbanites, cause they came from there,
their origin is Slavic from Bulgarec/Moschopolis
with System you killed expelled all minorities, and now you blaim Greeks and Serbs?
even at 1940's you attack and pillaging Greek villages and now you ask for tollerance Turk?

King Bardhyl
05-09-14, 12:36
only we name them Arbanites, cause they came from there,
their origin is Slavic from Bulgarec/Moschopolis
with System you killed expelled all minorities, and now you blaim Greeks and Serbs?
even at 1940's you attack and pillaging Greek villages and now you ask for tollerance Turk?

We don't kill people and don't expell them . We love the minority . In South Albania we have a little greek minority,50.000 people. The majority of this people are now living in Greece, but if you go in those village you can find ridiculous situation, a big school five teachers and three pupils .
All these because we respect minority and the rules of EU .
We don't kill them like you made with cham people during WWI, 1923, 1934 and WWII.
About Moschopolis or Voskopoja, i invite you to Tess book because you see ignorant about history.
After reading book about this issue i am sure that you will react like Kolokotronis :
.... o skilos. ... o phanariotis .
.... that dog. ...the phanarioti.

King Bardhyl
05-09-14, 12:46
We don't kill people and don't expell them . We love the minority . In South Albania we have a little greek minority,50.000 people. The majority of this people are now living in Greece, but if you go in those village you can find ridiculous situation, a big school five teachers and three pupils .
All these because we respect minority and the rules of EU .
We don't kill them like you made with cham people during WWI, 1923, 1934 and WWII.
About Moschopolis or Voskopoja, i invite you to Tess book because you see ignorant about history.
After reading book about this issue i am sure that you will react like Kolokotronis :
.... o skilos. ... o phanariotis .
.... that dog. ...the phanarioti.

And i pay taxes for the greek schools in greek minority, why your goverment don't open schools for the albanian minority in Greece? And for the other minority like slavs, kutsovlahs, turks etc? And for the new minorty created now in Greece like afgan, pakistan and indian? And i can mention other minority in Greece. Why you don't create for those people the condition of life like in other EU country ?

Yetos
05-09-14, 12:51
And i pay taxes for the greek schools in greek minority, why your goverment don't open schools for the albanian minority in Greece? And for the other minority like slavs, kutsovlahs, turks etc? And for the new minorty created now in Greece like afgan, pakistan and indian? And i can mention other minority in Greece. Why you don't create for those people the condition of life like in other EU country ?

the Greek minority schools were build By Greek goverment and my taxes,

ok mr LIEs
Albanians pay 0 lek for Greek schools,

if you want tell y
our goverment to open Albanians schools in Greece and pay the teachers,
As we build 13 Schools and we pay the about 130 teachers in Epirus, for both Greeks and Albanians there

besides the same we did in Deutschland, in Britain, in Ukraine/Crimea, in Georgia, in Pakistan, in France , Neatherlands even Australia and Argentina

you pay 0 for the Greek minority schools, which are modern, well equiped, and many Albanian child also study there.

PS
besides you make a Bulgarian, Kolokotroni an Arbaniti, Katsantoni also,
is that the pedia you teaching in Albania?

King Bardhyl
05-09-14, 13:02
the Greek schools were build By Greek goverment and my taxes,

ok mr LIEs
Albanians pay 0 lek for Greek schools,

if you want tell your goverment to open Albanians schools in Greece and pay the teachers,
As we build Schools and we pay the teachers in Epirus
I am not speaking about private schools. I am speaking about states schools . Those schools are with my taxes.

BTW the private schools opened by greek government and private greek, are using for greek propaganda against Albania.

King Bardhyl
05-09-14, 13:09
I am not speaking about private schools. I am speaking about states schools . Those schools are with my taxes.

BTW the private schools opened by greek government and private greek, are using for greek propaganda against Albania.

And also in university in Gjirokastra it's an branch in greek language for minority students.
Now we are not waiting from you to open university in Athens for albanians people ,just elementary schools ,A, B, C. .

Yetos
05-09-14, 13:54
I am not speaking about private schools. I am speaking about states schools . Those schools are with my taxes.

BTW the private schools opened by greek government and private greek, are using for greek propaganda against Albania.

WRONG,
all Greek minority schools were build by Greek Goverment,
all teachers about 130-150 are paid by Greek citizens taxes
besides we re-open now and 1 school in Turkey after 1950'

Albanians Pay 0
if you want pay taxes to Albanian goverment to open schools in Greece and also pay the teachers.



besides in Athens work Albanian schools for immigrants, from times of (is that Turkish or Albanian name?) Dasvon Dervish
head manager is Lorents Koka,

Besides
the video is old, before the new schools were build
look at the situation they were left, min 1:57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hevL2HI4xno


ps
Albanian names
Dervish Tzelempi Muhtar !!!! no Turks at all!!!!! right west Turkey man?

King Bardhyl
05-09-14, 14:32
WRONG,
all Greek minority schools were build by Greek Goverment,
all teachers about 130-150 are paid by Greek citizens taxes
besides we re-open now and 1 school in Turkey after 1950'

Albanians Pay 0
if you want pay taxes to Albanian goverment to open schools in Greece and also pay the teachers.



besides in Athens work Albanian schools for immigrants, from times of (is that Turkish or Albanian name?) Dasvon Dervish
head manager is Lorents Koka,

I am trying to explain. I don't know what make your goverment with your money and the money of EU.
In Albania is the constitution who oblige the government.
During the communism the sistem was 8+4, with 8 year obligatory. In minority villages the state made schools for obligatory sistem and middle school. It was for albanian pupils and for minoritary pupils ,thr same. No distinction.
After the fall of comunism the sistem change, again 12years but 9+3 but obligatory 12 years, the same for albanian the same for greek. Also after the fall of comunism it was open in university of Gjirokastra an branch for minoritary students in greek. All this with albanian money. Your goverment maybe had help in riconstruction of schools . But the tale about modern schools with teachers and classes with mixed pupils albanian and greek go tell to other. Maybe you are speaking about private initiatives betwen greek goverment and vorioqipiriote siloges. But those see private initiatives . I am speaking about statal sistem,.

Yetos
05-09-14, 14:39
I am trying to explain. I don't know what make your goverment with your money and the money of EU.
In Albania is the constitution who oblige the government.
During the communism the sistem was 8+4, with 8 year obligatory. In minority villages the state made schools for obligatory sistem and middle school. It was for albanian pupils and for minoritary pupils ,thr same. No distinction.
After the fall of comunism the sistem change, again 12years but 9+3 but obligatory 12 years, the same for albanian the same for greek. Also after the fall of comunism it was open in university of Gjirokastra an branch for minoritary students in greek. All this with albanian money. Your goverment maybe had help in riconstruction of schools . But the tale about modern schools with teachers and classes with mixed pupils albanian and greek go tell to other. Maybe you are speaking about private initiatives betwen greek goverment and vorioqipiriote siloges. But those see private initiatives . I am speaking about statal sistem,.


that is a graduate from 1952,
was there any graduate at 60's 70's? at Hodza times? NO
then after 2000' some few new schools open, by donating from Greeks and Greek goverment.
in the video the last minute is an old school before even before the times of Hodza which not work anymore around Argyrokastron
are you talking about these school which were almost shut from communist time era?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qLwQMlE_m14/TgN4W8O7p8I/AAAAAAAABb8/7ngW7DZfo8Q/s400/%25CE%2592%25CE%25BF%25CF%2581%25CE%25B5%25CE%25B9 %25CE%25BF%25CE%25B7%25CF%2580%25CE%25B5%25CE%25B9 %25CF%2581%25CF%258E%25CF%2584%25CE%25B7%25CF%2582 +%25CE%25B1%25CF%2580%25CE%25BF%25CE%25BB%25CF%258 5%25CF%2584%25CE%25AE%25CF%2581%25CE%25B9%25CE%25B F+%25CE%25B5%25CF%2586%25CF%2584%25CE%25B1%25CF%25 84%25CE%25AC%25CE%25BE%25CE%25B9%25CE%25BF%25CF%25 85+%25CF%2583%25CF%2587%25CE%25BF%25CE%25BB%25CE%2 5AF%25CE%25BF%25CF%25853.png

King Bardhyl
06-09-14, 11:25
You're telling that during communis greek minority ccould not be learn in greek language? And to prove this theory you showing me a graduate in bilingual greek and albanian. What does it mean? You are still under the effect of sedatives? Ok, what can i tell you.
I wish you a speedy recovery, in order to be able to sit in the chair.

Yetos
06-09-14, 13:49
You're telling that during communis greek minority ccould not be learn in greek language? And to prove this theory you showing me a graduate in bilingual greek and albanian. What does it mean? You are still under the effect of sedatives? Ok, what can i tell you.
I wish you a speedy recovery, in order to be able to sit in the chair.

I may also remind you the 3ple borders, and 7 000 that escape Hodza status and more than 13 000 dead in the borders.
or the cinemas that show wild African life documentaries and 'wise guys' telling the viewers that is Greece.
he gather the corn and say to people 'this goes to Greece, they are hungry', and he bought chinese AK47 4 times the male population of Albania,
even in 2000-2010 you find hidden gun storage and explode them as expired.
until 55-60 many graduates were given
how much at late 70's?

King Bardhyl
06-09-14, 16:39
I may also remind you the 3ple borders, and 7 000 that escape Hodza status and more than 13 000 dead in the borders.
or the cinemas that show wild African life documentaries and 'wise guys' telling the viewers that is Greece.
he gather the corn and say to people 'this goes to Greece, they are hungry', and he bought chinese AK47 4 times the male population of Albania,
even in 2000-2010 you find hidden gun storage and explode them as expired.
until 55-60 many graduates were given
how much at late 70's?

For your knowledge, i am anticommunist, i hate the communist.
For my curiosity, have you read any books in your life?
How many greeks are killed in your Civil War?
And the last do you know that he Enver Hoxha, in two cases held the Greeks with bread, your people?

MOESAN
09-09-14, 00:09
The authors do state that as one of their major conclusions, but it seems to me that in the body of the paper itself they spend their time trying to determine if there was significant gene flow from the Near East into the Balkans during the Ottoman occupation (they determine there was not, although there were conversions) and then do a comparison of the modern national groups.

In regard to the latter, they find that there is no difference autosomally between the Bosnian Croats, the Bosnian Serbs and the Bosniaks. In terms of the other national groups, they do see a slight difference between the Bulgarians and Romanians on the one side and the western Balkans on the other, but it doesn't look to me as if the difference is very significant. (They claim that the people of Kosovo group a little apart, but I don't see it on the admixture run. There they look just like Macedonians.)

The non-Balkan populations with which they are the most similar are the North Italians and to a lesser extent the Tuscans. The Greeks seem to group sort of just south of the Tuscans. However, I think this sample is from northern Greece. I don't think there are academic samples from the Peleponesus, for example or from Crete or any of the other islands, not to mention the Pontic Greeks.

This is the admixture run:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&docid=5-vk1nKWbQgdoM&tbnid=4epXYXvc8L886M:&ved=0CAIQjBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plosone.org%2Farticle%2Finfo% 3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0105090.g002%2Flarg erimage&ei=YPcFVNrmK5G8ggSW6YLwAw&bvm=bv.74115972,d.eXY&psig=AFQjCNFa_h1RjILhKrcXX_-45jCm9v1BgA&ust=1409763538739926

6603

thanks for the post, I already saw this run - interesting but of weak resolution: 'mediterranean' (a sort), 'north+central european' (West' and East' mixed in it), 'arabic' (a sort) and 'caucasic', as a whole - it would have deserved more precision, I think, to get a bit more interesting yet...

Tomenable
17-04-15, 23:53
we were talking about Serbs from Serbia and Montenegro and the reason why they don't cluster with Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats and Bosniacs.

In Bosnia ethnic identity is determined fully by religion. Bosnian Serbs = Orthodox; Bosnian Croats = Catholic; Bosniacs = Muslim.

They cluster with each other because they are descendants of the same population which split into ethnic groups along religious lines.

They do not cluster with Serbs from Serbia perhaps because there was no major migration, but assimilation (Serbization) in Bosnia.

MOESAN
20-04-15, 23:28
I expect more precise autosomoes surveys - not only the Y DNA shows big enough differences in this part of Europe but the metrics anthropology shows too big enough differences, even between Bulgarians and Romanians, even within every country, and I have more confidence today in classical anthropology than in some autosomes surveys of low resolution (for classification) where big regions are smelted on together - but every scientist is tempted to put faith only in the tools he is used to...