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Power77
10-09-14, 02:50
It has always baffled me how the reconstructions of Early Europeans( Grimaldi,Kostenski) all looked relatively similar to East African populations especially Masai or Nilotic folks. And I found it interesting how white skin and light hair/eyes were found to have been as recent as 5 000 BC in most of Europe( well the mutation for blue eyes was found in the 7000 year old C6 carrying La Brana individual)! I am also guessing that the I* haplogroup Early Europeans may have looked quite similar to certain Masai types. So far the mtDNA of Cro Magnon people came back haplogroup N which is common among the Masai and similar East African Sub-Saharan populations. I suspect that the light traits common in Europe today would have been introduced relatively recently by the Indo-Europeans from Central Asia(assiociated with Y chromosome R*). By taking the women of CM haplogroup I*(and possibly G2a*,E1b* or C6*) carriers in Europe, these Indo European invaders gained some of their traits such as slender bodies, wavier hair and perhaps narrower noses and more dolicocephalic/mesocephalic skulls while introducing in Europe paler skin, straighter hair and lighter hair colour. From that mixing would arise the modern European types as we know them today by 3000 BC. In other words, I beleive Modern Europeans to be a mixture of Proto-Masai Cro Magnons(Y-haplogroups I*and F*), Proto-Asian Mesolithics(Y- haplogroups C6* and perhaps Q*) , Neolithic farmers(Y-haplogroups G2a* and E1b*) and Indo-European invaders(Y-haplogroups R1a* and perhaps R1b*) or Other recent historical peoples(Uralics, Jews, Phoenicians, Romans, Gypsies). What are your takes on my theory? Share.

LeBrok
10-09-14, 04:49
Suraly IE were connected to steppe and as such they are expected to bring all the light elements to Central and West Europe. Having said that from recent finds of Neolithic individuals in Europe there we gather that lighter traits happened in Europe gradually with many mutations put together, emphasised by farmer diet and higher altitude, which lacks strong sun for vitamin D production. At the end all these lightening traits conglomerated in Northern Europe where they are needed the most.

Perhaps you want to add something to our skull volt:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29518-Collection-of-skulls

Fire Haired14
10-09-14, 05:39
Power77, you're letting agenda cloud your reasoning.


It has always baffled me how the reconstructions of Early Europeans( Grimaldi,Kostenski) all looked relatively similar to East African populations especially Masai or Nilotic folks.

Grimaldi man had a Caucasoid skull shape, it was because of its weird positioning that in photos it looked Negroid. You have no evidence any Europeans at anytime looked anything like those east African people. Most pre-Neolithic skulls from Europe have the basic Caucasoid skull shape. Many old ones probably don't because they are from such early times in Eurasian history, before major east-west split. Most pre-LGM west Europeans were WHG or proto-WHG and would have had Caucasoid-skull shapes. These Upper Palaeolithic west Europeans(WHG) look west Eurasian to me (https://www.google.com/search?q=lA+mArche+cave+carvings&espv=2&es_sm=122&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ssEPVJvlCoKzyATi2oGoCA&ved=0CB8QsAQ&biw=1137&bih=741&dpr=0.9).


And I found it interesting how white skin and light hair/eyes were found to have been as recent as 5 000 BC in most of Europe( well the mutation for blue eyes was found in the 7000 year old C6 carrying La Brana individual)! I am also guessing that the I* haplogroup Early Europeans may have looked quite similar to certain Masai types.

You're referring to Wilde 2014. It's 5,000YBP not 5,000BC. They tested 3 pigmentation SNPs on samples from Eneolithic-copper age Bulgaria, Ukraine, and European Russia. It revealed were probably darker than modern west Asians. Their mtDNA though was 100% European-specific. They were a mix of east European ANE-WHG hunter gatherers and ENF-UHG west Asian farmers. Later Indo Europeans(specifically Indo Iranians) in Siberia with pretty much identical mtDNA and probably a similar overall genetic makeup, had light skin, mainly blonde hair, and mostly blue eyes. Pigmentation can change quickly like Lactose tolerance(it dramatically rose in Europe in the last few thousand years). The swathy Eneolithic-copper age east Europeans don't represent everything that was going on in Europe at that time pigmentation wise.

There are no Y DNA I* samples from Mesolithic Europe. Just hg I samples which were not tested for many downstream SNPs, and therefore couldn't find their subclade. We have the skulls of these I* men from Mesolithic Europe you speak of, and they had Caucasoid skulls, as did La Brana-1. You're assuming European-like= non-native and young and non-European= native and ancient. Because you thought they had I* you assumed they looked African. You have a serious miss understanding about human genetics. No modern population is ancestral to another. That's like saying I'm ancestral to my brothers. So, Europeans did not evolve from Africans, like it seems you think.


So far the mtDNA of Cro Magnon people came back haplogroup N which is common among the Masai and similar East African Sub-Saharan populations.

No mtDNA N is a Eurasian lineage, not African. And the single N* sample from Upper Palaeolithic Europe is likely contaminated. If it didn't belong to any modern N clades, it wasn't N*, we just don't know what mutations it had. There is an R(clade of N) sample that's over 20,000 years older than this supposed N* sample. Most mtDNA samples from Upper Palaeolithic Europe are hg U; U5*, U2, U8c, etc. There are also some R0's. There's no such thing as Cro Magnon, it's just a term used for Europeans of a certain time period.


I suspect that the light traits common in Europe today would have been introduced relatively recently by the Indo-Europeans from Central Asia(assiociated with Y chromosome R*). By taking the women of CM haplogroup I*(and possibly G2a*,E1b* or C6*) carriers in Europe, these Indo European invaders gained some of their traits such as slender bodies, wavier hair and perhaps narrower noses and more dolicocephalic/mesocephalic skulls while introducing in Europe paler skin, straighter hair and lighter hair colour.

Well as far as we know proto-Indo Europeans were very dark. What happened in Europe genetically after the initial spread of farmers from west Asia is a big mystery. Indo Europeans who spread east of the Caspian were very pale, then you have Balto-Slavs, Germans, Celts, and Finno-Urgics all existing since at least the bronze age with the same basic pigmentation. Why this is, is a mystery. I doubt it was as simple as these people were pale and made other people pale. The Scythians and Germans would have been hard to distinguish from each other even though they have very differnt genetic makeups. Natural selection is probably the main reason, not ancestry percentages.

Caucasoid features doesn't= European. So thin noses are shared by all west Eurasians, Pakistani and Irish alike. Slender bodies? This is all just stero types in your head, you have no sources to back this up. These stero types come from recent traits associated with Europeans in the last 500 years. Europeanism doesn't always= Civilized, non-native, physically weak but intelligent, etc. These are modern stero types you're putting on pre historic people, and it simply doesn't work.

Straighter hair, are you kidding me? This is Afro-centrism, with nothing to back it up.

Fire Haired14
10-09-14, 05:44
Suraly IE were connected to steppe and as such they are expected to bring all the light elements to Central and West Europe. Having said that from recent finds of Neolithic individuals in Europe there we gather that lighter traits happened in Europe gradually with many mutations put together, emphasised by farmer diet and higher altitude, which lacks strong sun for vitamin D production. At the end all these lightening traits conglomerated in Northern Europe where they are needed the most.

Perhaps you want to add something to our skull volt:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29518-Collection-of-skulls

That's an old simplistic theory. Neolithic, diet, northern altitude, etc. I suspect it's much more complex.

Power77
10-09-14, 06:33
@ Fire Haired14 First of all, I think you should look at pictures of Masai people. Some of them pretty much have so-called Caucasoid skull shapes. You know, so-called Caucasoid morphology as you said is not exclusive to Europe and not even West Eurasia! Take a look at Ainu,Polynesians(especially the Moriori of New Zealand), Papuans, some Australian Aborigines and Plains Amerindians. Don't some of them look a little bit like White people? I bet if someone found let's say Sitting Bull's skull,he/she would classify his skull as Caucasoid and assume he looked like regular Europeans/West Eurasians. You should read about the Kennewick Man controversy for more examples of such a confusion. And when I mentionned I*, I was referring to hypothetical Paleolithic I*, not Mesolithic I*. Also I never said the Masai people in the modern sense are/were ancestral to Europeans. I said the ancestors of Modern Europeans could have looked a bit like them due to ancient common ancestry in East Africa. Although I thank you for reminding me of the samples of mtDNA haplogroup U found among UP Europeans, I would like you to cite me the source about mtDNA N among UP Euros being contamination. PS: I'm no Afrocentric! Cheers.

Yetos
10-09-14, 08:03
Straighter hair, are you kidding me? This is Afro-centrism, with nothing to back it up.


well I know that that by the shape of hairs, and even by shape (eclipse/circle) we can distinguish African East Asian and European type,

can't find it is old but seems chinese and East Asians have circle shape and thin hair, subsaharan africans have very flat hair, while europeans tend to an eclipse and a thick hair in south, thinner in north.

bicicleur
10-09-14, 11:29
@ Fire Haired14 First of all, I think you should look at pictures of Masai people. Some of them pretty much have so-called Caucasoid skull shapes. You know, so-called Caucasoid morphology as you said is not exclusive to Europe and not even West Eurasia! Take a look at Ainu,Polynesians(especially the Moriori of New Zealand), Papuans, some Australian Aborigines and Plains Amerindians. Don't some of them look a little bit like White people? I bet if someone found let's say Sitting Bull's skull,he/she would classify his skull as Caucasoid and assume he looked like regular Europeans/West Eurasians. You should read about the Kennewick Man controversy for more examples of such a confusion. And when I mentionned I*, I was referring to hypothetical Paleolithic I*, not Mesolithic I*. Also I never said the Masai people in the modern sense are/were ancestral to Europeans. I said the ancestors of Modern Europeans could have looked a bit like them due to ancient common ancestry in East Africa. Although I thank you for reminding me of the samples of mtDNA haplogroup U found among UP Europeans, I would like you to cite me the source about mtDNA N among UP Euros being contamination. PS: I'm no Afrocentric! Cheers.

Masai may have inherited some traits from haplo T and R1b-V88, who introduced cattle and dairy products into Africa from Abatolia some 7-8000 years ago, the same time dairy products were introduced from Anatolia into Europe, maybe by haplo T and J1

Power77
10-09-14, 13:26
@bicicleur Then why the Masai seem to lack such haplogroups? And for these traits having been introduced to Africa by T and R1b-V88, I'm not too sure because some Cameroonian tribes with 50% hg T* and/or 95% hg R1b-V88 pretty much look stereotypical Negroid/Niger-Congo West African in terms of phenotype.

Fire Haired14
11-09-14, 02:40
Power77, the reason Masi people have Caucasoid-like skulls is because of middle eastern admixture. Why would Europeans have any ancestors who looked like them? I don't see how you came to this conclusion. Europeans don't have 1 ancestral population, they have at least 3 even if your talking ~8,000YBP, and at differnt percentages.

There was no such thing as an I* population. It's just a paternal lineage. Besides the people who introduced hg I to Europe were probably proto-WHG and without a doubt had Caucasoid skull shapes, with straight hair. Your only reasoning behind your believe some ancient Europeans looked like east Africans is because you've learned many had dark skin(most people do), and because you assume Europeanism is something recent. Phenotype is something that can change quickly. Only trust genetic markers, and use phenotype as something secondary.

Power77
11-09-14, 04:41
@Fire Haired14 Proof that Masai people have any relevant Middle Eastern admixture so that it affected their skull shapes? Btw, the Lemba of South Africa have much higher Middle Eastern admixture( and recent one for that matter!), yet look completely Bantu phenotypically and craniofacially. Nothing like the Masai really....

bicicleur
11-09-14, 08:50
@bicicleur Then why the Masai seem to lack such haplogroups? And for these traits having been introduced to Africa by T and R1b-V88, I'm not too sure because some Cameroonian tribes with 50% hg T* and/or 95% hg R1b-V88 pretty much look stereotypical Negroid/Niger-Congo West African in terms of phenotype.

do you know what haplo are Massai? I don't have a clue.
my only hunch : pastoral tirbes in Africa 7-8000 years ago were T, R1b-V88 and descendants of E1b-Z827
R1b-V88 mixed with African females, hence their Chadic language

Power77
11-09-14, 14:16
@bicicleur Masai tend to have E1b1b*,E1b1a*(possibly due to Bantu admixture), A3b* and B2a* on the Y chromosome. On the mtDNA, we find various L* lineages(mostly L0* and L3*) as well as N1a* and M1* haplos.

bicicleur
11-09-14, 16:51
@bicicleur Masai tend to have E1b1b*,E1b1a*(possibly due to Bantu admixture), A3b* and B2a* on the Y chromosome. On the mtDNA, we find various L* lineages(mostly L0* and L3*) as well as N1a* and M1* haplos.

all these Y groups are African

N1a and M1 are Eurasian mtDNA

Power77
11-09-14, 17:45
@bicicleur We are not sure if N1a* and M1* really back-migrated to Africa unlike R* derived lineages(H1*,U6*,H3*,U5* or T1*) occasionally found throughout the African continent at various frequencies.