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View Full Version : New Archaiological discoverie in Makedonian tomps - off topic.



King Bardhyl
07-09-14, 23:04
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Roudometof/NGO.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Roudometof/roudo102.png

This whole page is very informative. I only highlighted one specific area for our imposter hellene friends to see. One name on that list, Adamantios Korais, sticks out for me seeing as he is the creator of the false language known as Katharevousa.
Basically, Greeks (new and old) never thought the Macedonians were related to them, or part of their world.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/beaton.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/beaton59.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/beaton60.png

So the one man that created your national history (Paparrigopulos) thought that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation of their own. Well that is until he ran into Droysen who spoon fed him German "hellenism" and pretty much wrote your history from a German point of view. And look who wrote the piece. One of your own , Ioannis Koubourlis

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/rizo112.png
The nation and its ruins by Yannis Hamilakis page 112.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/veremes.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/veremes245.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/veremes246.png


Ummmm,,,, so the textbooks were even Westernised(Germanized) and had to be changed to fit the new "ideology"

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/beaton.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/beaton182.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/beaton182a.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/petemack.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/mackridge181.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/mackridge181a.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/mackridge182.png

King Bardhyl
07-09-14, 23:11
sorry forget this:
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/mackridge182a.png

King Bardhyl
07-09-14, 23:52
There had been a vast deal too much talk about the descendants of Leonidas and Themistocles, about the glories of Marathon and Thermopylae. The Greeks and their friends were too apt to leap back two thousand years and ignore all history between the fight of Chaeronea and the fight of Dragatshan.

The life and letters of Edward A. Freeman, D.C.L., LL. D. By William Richard Wood Stephens pages 190-192.

King Bardhyl
08-09-14, 00:03
There is a difference between philhelenes of Greek Revolution and "modern" philhelenes.Those who took part in the Revolution spent everything even their life for their dream. These "the modern" are among the causes of economic crisis passes Greek economy, with their higher salaries, and promoting your government to do crazy and costly nationalist projects.

King Bardhyl
08-09-14, 00:06
Keep up... Nice photos.

Hey Ike,why do not continued the discussion with me? We were very close to the truth.

Yetos
08-09-14, 01:07
sorry forget this:
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/mackridge182a.png


OH I SEE YOUR PROBLEM?

and I ask you? what is your answer to the dilema, How to name the new state?
Turks call us Rumlar in Turkey, Yunan in Greece,
Italians and the rest of Europe call us Greeks,

How we should name that new country?

New East Roman Empire? Romania? Romylia? Greekania?

since the majority were Greeks at the first εθνοσυνελευσις (national council) we decide to name it Hellas.

now about the slavs?
there are mention 5 Slavic tribes which 'vanished' before 1000 AD, and nobody hear after them?

Melingoi
Ezeritai
Dragovitai
Belegezites
Sagudates

from them only Dragovitai and Sagudates manage to survive until WW2 and silently or violently exchanged with the Greeks of Monasterion Perlepe Strumnitsa.
the known case of Greek speaking in Fyrom, and Slavic speaking in Greek.
they were mostly from Edessa to Florina (Vodena to Lerin) and even today we speak about small populations,
the Greeks in Fyrom as estimated after were about 60-80 000, the Slavs in Greece about 40-60 000 yet numbers are estimations, due to violence from WW1 to WW2 and the roll of communists in civil war.

Melingoi stayed in the area which later Arberesh of Chora gather, Koroni/maniaki, Nobody hear them after after Makedonian Dynasty Byzantine rulers, perhaps they left, or assimilated,
Ezeritai the same,
Belegazites managed to pillage and enter thessaly, some churches have their marks in 8th century, since then no one hear them, no mark, nothing probably went back to join Dragovitai.


now to Arbanitai
there are mention 2 settlements of Arbanites in Greece,
the First is after the retreat of general Maniakis from Italy who probably is the father of all Arbanites, and the revolt Anna komneni describes, a part of rabels went south to the area of Slavic melingoi and Koroni building Maniaki, later the times of admiral barbarosa moved to Chora sicily,
the second is the Arvanites of Theba which came under invitation of Latin ruler of Athens Duchy at about 1200 AD, they manage to expand even to Athens the 3 islands of Saronikos and Nayplion
no other Arbanites until the times of Ali Pasha, Sorry to dissapoint you.

now

learn some things about Greek revolt,

1) the roll of Filiki etaireia, is the main idea, money, officers, guns, diplomacy,
2) the revolts of Greeks, each captain was trained before, and had a foreign education,
Pappas trained in Vienna
Kolokotronis trained by British he had tittle of british army major
Olympitis trained by Serbian Karageorgevic
Ypsilantis trained by Russians tsar's flag liutenant
Δημητριος Ιπατρος trained by British
Zafeirakis trained by Ipatros
Katsantonis train by Κλεφτης Διπλας, the known killer of Ali pasha champion Veli-Geg-as, under the command of Kolokotronis and kapodistrias from 1807
Soyliotes ignore him and join the Moschow and trained by them, if you know Greek history
Anthimos Gazis or gazes, trained in Bavaria
papaflessas or Dikaios trained by British
kanaris from ψαρρα island
Michael Kokkinis from chios island trained as military engineer in Vienna and France, he organise the messologgi defence
the list is endless
even Karageorgis Petrovic of Serbia was member of Filiki
ok now I telling you my homeland,
Διαμαντης Νικολαου guess you never heard of him, but we clear Eyboia Sporades Fthiotis from Turks, the times when Androutsos was just a name with no action, Makedonian power :good_job:
kasomoulis Nik and his west makedonians at the army of karaiskakis makedonian power.

want more?


But lets see what happened to the Greek revolt?

Orlov's revolt, 1768/74
The Greeks revolt, especially in Peloponese, and crete, the revolt drought to blood, Turks won, but their bullies, the ALBANIANS as always ask for taxating peloponese,
the result is written in Books,
Kolokotronis which you want him an Albanian but sorry is not, mention in his memoires about that battle,


Θεόδωρος Κολοκοτρώνης, Διήγησις συμβάντων της Ελληνικής φυλής, 1846


NO ALBANIAN LEFT IN PELOPONESE AT 1774

now sing your songs about Fallmayer, i like you when you do it,

besides you always obey and were champions of Turks, the last who took freedom, and even at WW1 your identity was next to Turks, no matter Ismael kenan Vlore suggest you in his newspapper, you needed a century to gain a national ID, and now you claim all the word that is Albanian :laughing: and they did not know,


now more about the Greek revolt,

After orlov's revolt for first time we realize our power, and the trebling Ottoman empire,
so for years we organise it,

IS IT COINSIDENCE that in March 1821 we see

1 22/2 revolt In Romania Iasion By Ypsilantis
2 23/3 revolt in kalamata by Papaflessas (Dikaios)
3 23/3 revolt in kalabryta by the bishop Germanos
3 23/3 revolt in Thessaly by anthimos Gazis
4 23/3 revolt in Central makedonia, by Zafeirakis
5 23/3 revolt in East Makedonia By Pappas
6 23/3 many small revolt in West Makedonia and Epirus they follow the revolt till the Exodus of Messologgi, the first who exit and attack the Turk-Albanians were the 155 Makedonians from West Makedonia (kasomoulis)
7 23/3 the revolt in Parnassis by Panourgias

want more revolts same date?
simply when we fought Turks, you foughts for the Turks

King Bardhyl
08-09-14, 01:18
Why you changr discussion again? We are here to discuss about Alexander the Great or no? Wha do you think about my post?

King Bardhyl
08-09-14, 01:22
You speak about english tutor, during your revolution. Let see:
The Life of Thomas, Lord Cochrane, Tenth Earl of Dundonald, G.C.B., Admiral of the Red, Rear-Admiral of the Fleet

At length, in 1820, there was an open rupture. Ali was denounced as a traitor, and ordered to surrender his pashalik. Instead of so doing, he organized his army for prompt rebellion, trusting for success partly to the support of the Greeks. Most of the Greeks held aloof; but the Suliots, a race of Christian marauders, the fiercest of the fierce community of Albanians, sided with him, and for more than a year rendered him valuable aid by reason of their hereditary skill in lawless warfare. Not till January, 1822, was Ali forced to surrender, and then only, perhaps, through the defection of the Suliots.

The Suliots, dissatisfied with Ali's recompense for their services, had gone over to the Greeks, who, not caring to serve under Ali in his
rebellion, had welcomed that rebellion as a Heaven-sent opportunity for realising their long-cherished hopes.

"Phanariots and doctors in medicine," says an eye-witness, "who, in the month of April, 1824, were clad in ragged coats, and who lived on scanty rations, threw off that patriotic chrysalis before summer was past, and emerged in all the splendour of brigand life, fluttering about in rich Albanian habiliments, refulgent with brilliant and unused arms, and followed by diminutive pipe-bearers and tall henchmen."

The result was altogether disheartening to the Greeks. They saw that their condition was indeed desperate. George Konduriottes, a Hydriot merchant, an Albanian who could not speak Greek, and who was alike unable to govern himself or others, had, in June, 1824, been named president of the republic, and since then the rival interests of the primates, the priests, and the military leaders had been steadily causing the decay of all that was left of patriotism and increase of the selfishness that had so long been rampant.

An overwhelming power was thus organized during the last weeks of 1825, and the defenders of Missolonghi were left to succumb to it, almost unaided. Their previous successes had induced the Greeks of other districts to believe that they could continue their defence alone..............As far as their vision stretched over the waves they beheld only Turkish flags. The plain was studded with Mussulman tents and standards; and the gradual appearance of new batteries more skilfully disposed, the field days of the Arabs, and the noise of saws and hammers, gave fearful warning. Yet these gallant Acarnanians, Etolians, and Epirots never flinched for an instant." On the 13th of January, Ibrahim Pasha sent to say that he was willing to treat with them for an honourable surrender if they would convey their terms by deputies who could speak Albanian, Turkish, and French. "We are illiterate, and do not understand so many languages," was their blunt reply; "pashas we do not recognize; but we know how to handle the sword and gun."

Hold a second here. What, no deputies among the defenders of Missolonghi in this 'Greek' war of independence could speak Greek? Just Albanian? Clearly they aren't even conversant in Turkish or hardly so, French being out of the question. Ibrahim Pasha 's aim was to have somebody that could be understood by all, rebels (Albanian), rulers (Turkish) and foreigners (French).

King Bardhyl
08-09-14, 01:32
What`s happened with you my friend? Your first president and vice president were two ignorant albanian? Your national dress fustanella is an albanian dress? Your national hero Kolokotronis is an albanian bandit? All your heroes were albanian and mostly of them bodyguard of an albanian pasha, Ali pasha? Lets make an test with you.In this long list of president and prime minister of Greece, who always declared proud albanian i will chose..........this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonios_Kriezis
Can you translate his surname KRIEZIS pls? It`s your prime minister you know the etimology of his name, right?

King Bardhyl
08-09-14, 01:35
And when speak with me use some references to convince us, your thoughts are not as a result of sedatives you receive.
You are burned from the word Adamantios Korais, right?

King Bardhyl
08-09-14, 01:39
Oh i forget Yannis Koletis, prime minister of Greece, the ideator of Megalidea. I will use for him an modern term. Koletis was the doctor of Ali Pasha, and he dealt with the analysis of urine of the old Pasha. OK?
Turn to the discussion about Alexander the Great if you can hold this.

King Bardhyl
08-09-14, 01:46
Mr. Finlay replied on June 37 to Freeman's first letter, and wrote twice to him again at considerable length in the course of the summer and autumn. For the information which Freeman was seeking he referred him to some of his own pamphlets and articles in Black-woods Magazine, published during the last twenty years, some of which had been translated in the Revue Britannique, and had therefore excited some interest in Greece, and elsewhere on the Continent. He expressed entire agreement with the general principles laid down in Freeman's letter, but he took a very gloomy view of the present condition and immediate prospects of Greece. He admitted that independence was a great gain, and worth a hundred years of revolution, but the condition of the country was still lamentable. 'We have had,' he says, ' a European monarchy for more than twenty-two years, and a representative government for twelve, yet not a single elementary measure has been proposed to secure the increase and improvement of the agricultural population.' He was doing his best to persuade the people to improve their own condition, for he had lost all hope of help from protecting powers, kings, diplomatists, and representative chambers. Meanwhile, brigandage prevailed in all parts of the country, and was accompanied with acts of the most revolting cruelty, which the government took no vigorous measures to suppress. Freeman's article in the Edinburgh Review for April, 1856, contains a clear and concise sketch of the history of the modern Greek nation as distinguished from the purely Hellenic race of classical antiquity, of the war of independence, and the subsequent condition of the country down to the time at which he was writing. But he first of all deals with the pretext for withholding sympathy from the modern Greeks, which alleged that they were mere impostors and not Greeks at all. Such an objection, absurd though it was, might be regarded as a natural retribution for resting the cause of Greek independence, as some persons did, upon grounds which were too narrow. There had been a vast deal too much talk about the descendants of Leonidas and Themistocles, about the glories of Marathon and Thermopylae. The Greeks and their friends were too apt to leap back two thousand years and ignore all history between the fight of Chaeronea(1) and the fight of Dragatshan(2). They were too apt also to isolate the cause of the Greek from the general cause of subject nations. The real grounds for sympathy with the Greeks

(1) The decisive victory of Philip of Macedon over the Athenians and their allies, B.C. 338.

(2) The first great decisive victory of the Greeks over the Turks in the Revolution of A.d. 1821.

were, that they were an oppressed people rising against their oppressors, and a Christian people, oppressed as Christians, rising against infidel oppressors. The immortal associations of old Greece, the identity of language and, in many respects of character, between its ancient and its modern inhabitants, added, of course, a peculiar charm which could not attach to any other land or any other struggle: but the real merit of the Greek cause—the cause of religion, liberty, and civilization—must not be overshadowed by past associations, however glorious. As to purity of race, if no one but a genuine Hellene could claim our sympathy, and if no one was to be admitted as a genuine Hellene who could not produce a pure Dorian or Ionian pedigree, the cause might as well be given up at once. The modern Greeks were a very mixed race: but not more mixed than the modern English. If Macedonian, Slavonian, Albanian, Wallachian, Frankish, and even Turkish blood were mingled with the pure stock of the old Hellene, so was that of the old Anglo-Saxon mixed up with the blood of every race which he conquered and of every race which conquered him, as well as with that of every people whom commerce or persecution had led to settle in our island.

The life and letters of Edward A. Freeman, D.C.L., LL. D. By William Richard Wood Stephens pages 190-192.

Yetos
08-09-14, 02:41
OH I SEE YOUR PROBLEM?

and I ask you? what is your answer to the dilema, How to name the new state?
Turks call us Rumlar in Turkey, Yunan in Greece,
Italians and the rest of Europe call us Greeks,

How we should name that new country?

New East Roman Empire? Romania? Romylia? Greekania?

since the majority were Greeks at the first εθνοσυνελευσις (national council) we decide to name it Hellas.

now about the slavs?
there are mention 5 Slavic tribes which 'vanished' before 1000 AD, and nobody hear after them?

Melingoi
Ezeritai
Dragovitai
Belegezites
Sagudates

from them only Dragovitai and Sagudates manage to survive until WW2 and silently or violently exchanged with the Greeks of Monasterion Perlepe Strumnitsa.
the known case of Greek speaking in Fyrom, and Slavic speaking in Greek.
they were mostly from Edessa to Florina (Vodena to Lerin) and even today we speak about small populations,
the Greeks in Fyrom as estimated after were about 60-80 000, the Slavs in Greece about 40-60 000 yet numbers are estimations, due to violence from WW1 to WW2 and the roll of communists in civil war.

Melingoi stayed in the area which later Arberesh of Chora gather, Koroni/maniaki, Nobody hear them after after Makedonian Dynasty Byzantine rulers, perhaps they left, or assimilated,
Ezeritai the same,
Belegazites managed to pillage and enter thessaly, some churches have their marks in 8th century, since then no one hear them, no mark, nothing probably went back to join Dragovitai.


now to Arbanitai
there are mention 2 settlements of Arbanites in Greece,
the First is after the retreat of general Maniakis from Italy who probably is the father of all Arbanites, and the revolt Anna komneni describes, a part of rabels went south to the area of Slavic melingoi and Koroni building Maniaki, later the times of admiral barbarosa moved to Chora sicily,
the second is the Arvanites of Theba which came under invitation of Latin ruler of Athens Duchy at about 1200 AD, they manage to expand even to Athens the 3 islands of Saronikos and Nayplion
no other Arbanites until the times of Ali Pasha, Sorry to dissapoint you.

now

learn some things about Greek revolt,

1) the roll of Filiki etaireia, is the main idea, money, officers, guns, diplomacy,
2) the revolts of Greeks, each captain was trained before, and had a foreign education,
Pappas trained in Vienna
Kolokotronis trained by British he had tittle of british army major
Olympitis trained by Serbian Karageorgevic
Ypsilantis trained by Russians tsar's flag liutenant
Δημητριος Ιπατρος trained by British
Zafeirakis trained by Ipatros
Katsantonis train by Κλεφτης Διπλας, the known killer of Ali pasha champion Veli-Geg-as, under the command of Kolokotronis and kapodistrias from 1807
Soyliotes ignore him and join the Moschow and trained by them, if you know Greek history
Anthimos Gazis or gazes, trained in Bavaria
papaflessas or Dikaios trained by British
kanaris from ψαρρα island
Michael Kokkinis from chios island trained as military engineer in Vienna and France, he organise the messologgi defence
the list is endless
even Karageorgis Petrovic of Serbia was member of Filiki
ok now I telling you my homeland,
Διαμαντης Νικολαου guess you never heard of him, but we clear Eyboia Sporades Fthiotis from Turks, the times when Androutsos was just a name with no action, Makedonian power :good_job:
kasomoulis Nik and his west makedonians at the army of karaiskakis makedonian power.

want more?


But lets see what happened to the Greek revolt?

Orlov's revolt, 1768/74
The Greeks revolt, especially in Peloponese, and crete, the revolt drought to blood, Turks won, but their bullies, the ALBANIANS as always ask for taxating peloponese,
the result is written in Books,
Kolokotronis which you want him an Albanian but sorry is not, mention in his memoires about that battle,


Θεόδωρος Κολοκοτρώνης, Διήγησις συμβάντων της Ελληνικής φυλής, 1846


NO ALBANIAN LEFT IN PELOPONESE AT 1774

now sing your songs about Fallmayer, i like you when you do it,

besides you always obey and were champions of Turks, the last who took freedom, and even at WW1 your identity was next to Turks, no matter Ismael kenan Vlore suggest you in his newspapper, you needed a century to gain a national ID, and now you claim all the word that is Albanian :laughing: and they did not know,


now more about the Greek revolt,

After orlov's revolt for first time we realize our power, and the trebling Ottoman empire,
so for years we organise it,

IS IT COINSIDENCE that in March 1821 we see

1 22/2 revolt In Romania Iasion By Ypsilantis
2 23/3 revolt in kalamata by Papaflessas (Dikaios)
3 23/3 revolt in kalabryta by the bishop Germanos
3 23/3 revolt in Thessaly by anthimos Gazis
4 23/3 revolt in Central makedonia, by Zafeirakis
5 23/3 revolt in East Makedonia By Pappas
6 23/3 many small revolt in West Makedonia and Epirus they follow the revolt till the Exodus of Messologgi, the first who exit and attack the Turk-Albanians were the 155 Makedonians from West Makedonia (kasomoulis)
7 23/3 the revolt in Parnassis by Panourgias

want more revolts same date?

simply when we fought Turks, you foughts for the Turks


PS
don't call me friend, you are nothing more than Ottomans pets

Yetos
08-09-14, 02:45
@ king Bardyll
Sorry to dissapoint you

but the Altaic component in Greeks is almost Zero
while in Albania is 14%,
search the sons of Turks in your country

your mtDNA is >60% slavic
search the sons of Slavs in your country

But we were here unDer East Roman empire, and we spoke our language, and we eliminate all intruders, especially the Turks and their pets Turk-Albans, who prefer the Ottomans instead their liberty

you see the French revolt inspired us all, and we rebuild a modern homeland and state,
and not only us, Serbs also, Bulgarians also, etc etc even Israel manage to make a new country milleniums after Massanta
but you? when all balkans revolt against Ottomans, you bend over sultans and serve their askers (armies)
why? cause the turk soul is still live among you inside you, no matter kenan Vlore wanted to pull him out of your souls.

King Bardhyl
08-09-14, 09:03
Now this is not the place to discuss about albanian, greeks and ottoman, but this is typical yours,avoids discussion.
This turn us to this questions that i made in another discussion that you did`nt answer:




And don`t forget you have to answer to my questions:
I insist :

"I want to make some questions:
Who brought the Turks in the Balkans and against whom?
In the battle of Kosovo, was an anti-Ottoman Balkan coalition why had not the Greek?
During the 100 years war was made ​​by Albanians against the Turks from Ulcinj to Peloponnese, including the 25 years of resistance led by Skanderbeg, where were the Greeks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanderbeg
However, during an ambush in the same battle, Ballaban managed to capture some important Albanian noblemen, including Moisi Arianit Golemi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moisi_Arianit_Golemi), a cavalry commander, Vladan Gjurica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladan_Gjurica), the chief army quartermaster, Muzaka of Angelina (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muzaka_of_Angelina&action=edit&redlink=1), a nephew of Skanderbeg, and 18 other officers.[106] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanderbeg#cite_note-Noli1947p36-106) These men were sent immediately to Constantinople where they were skinned alive for fifteen days and later cut to pieces and thrown to the dogs.[106] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanderbeg#cite_note-Noli1947p36-106) Skanderbeg's pleas to have these men back, by either ransom or prisoner exchange, failed.[106]


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanderbeg#cite_note-Noli1947p36-106)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius
Mehmed therefore sought the most anti-Western cleric he could find as a figure of unity for the Greeks under Turkish rule – and Gennadius as leading anti-Union figure was a natural choice. On 1 June 1453, just three days after the fall of the city, the new Patriarch's procession passed through the streets where Mehmed received Gennadius graciously and himself invested him with the signs of his office – the crosier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosier) (dikanikion) and mantle. This ceremonial investiture would be repeated by all Sultans and Patriarchs thereafter.
And finally after you failed to tell me the name of a Greek hero, can you tell me a Greek uprising against the Turks during 400 years invasion? I am very curios. If you call uprising to fill Turkish harems with Christian girls, ok".

Are Maniotes albanian descendance?
Stradiotis were albanian ore romei?
Thomas of Argos was albanian or Romei?
You like to speak about language, do you see any link betwen albanian language and Tsakonian dialect?

And do not hide behind Arvanites.

The problem of the sultan in the early nineteenth century were Albanian pashas, and the albanians in general. But this is an another discussion, turb to the real discussion , the word of Koraios and Paparigopulos who did not accept the connection with the Macedonians.

Yetos
08-09-14, 09:41
@ King Bardyll

The Greeks and Slavs were with Skanderberg,
the ALbanians were with Vallavan pasha.

King Bardhyl
08-09-14, 10:53
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Roudometof/roudo102.png

This whole page is very informative. I only highlighted one specific area for our imposter hellene friends to see. One name on that list, Adamantios Korais, sticks out for me seeing as he is the creator of the false language known as Katharevousa.
Basically, Greeks (new and old) never thought the Macedonians were related to them, or part of their world.


http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/beaton59.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/beaton60.png

So the one man that created your national history (Paparrigopulos) thought that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation of their own. Well that is until he ran into Droysen who spoon fed him German "hellenism" and pretty much wrote your history from a German point of view. And look who wrote the piece. One of your own , Ioannis Koubourlis

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/rizo112.png
The nation and its ruins by Yannis Hamilakis page 112.



http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/veremes245.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/veremes246.png


Ummmm,,,, so the textbooks were even Westernised(Germanized) and had to be changed to fit the new "ideology"



http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/beaton182.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/beaton182a.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/mackridge181.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/mackridge181a.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Hellenism/mackridge182.png

If the connection betwen "modern Greeks" with the ancient Greeks is dedicated to an ​​greek fascist as General (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General) Ioannis Metaxas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Metaxas), The conenection with ancient macedonian is to dedicated to Regime of the Colonels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regime_of_the_Colonels) .





In the previous posting I showed the opinion of the fathers of philosophical and historycal thought of Greece.

Let's continue:

The new bump of the day with a little kick:
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/PeterMackrdige.jpg
page 47
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/PeterMackrdige47.jpg



This is a supposed "greek-macedonian(?)" from the 19th century and his geography:
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/veremes.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/veremes334.png
and this is the footnote with additional neo-hellenes of the 19th century who had exempted Epirus and Macedonia from their geography of "Hellas".
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/Veremisfootnote.jpg

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/Usesofthepast.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/Usesofthepast1.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/Usesofthepast30.jpg
There had been a vast deal too much talk about the descendants of Leonidas and Themistocles, about the glories of Marathon and Thermopylae. The Greeks and their friends were too apt to leap back two thousand years and ignore all history between the fight of Chaeronea and the fight of Dragatshan.
The greeks of today don't have any link to their ancient past & it's an invented myth that they do.The modern greeks used it like a crutch to lie to other countries hey look at us we are greek alexander was greek.This would be an oversimplification.
This one is really really good boys and girls. My favorite:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantios_Korais mentions a seperate ancient Macedonian language which is not 'greek':
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/OlgaAugustinos.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/OlgaAugustinos1.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/OlgaAugustinos171.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/OlgaAugustinos172.jpg

A question for you Yetos:who should we believe


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantios_Korais,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_Paparrigopoulos
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Metaxas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E2%80%9374
?

King Bardhyl
08-09-14, 11:07
PS
the books you read blind you so much, that you can not distinguish the moon from the sun,
close one day the 'propaganda radio' and search your shelf, live your life, and not the life of others,
if you read books from 1825 and do not compare it with moderns then you live at 1825

l

You are speaking about this persons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantios_Korais,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constan...aparrigopoulos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_Paparrigopoulos)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandros_Soutsos
George Kozakis-Typaldos
Panagiotis Kordikas
Iakovos Rizos Neroulos ?

Yetos
08-09-14, 13:42
You are speaking about this persons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantios_Korais,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constan...aparrigopoulos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_Paparrigopoulos)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandros_Soutsos
George Kozakis-Typaldos
Panagiotis Kordikas
Iakovos Rizos Neroulos ?



PFFFFFF

are you quoting my answers to another person, and another subject, just to promote your trash Turk?

King Bardhyl
08-09-14, 14:23
PFFFFFF

are you quoting my answers to another person, and another subject, just to promote your trash Turk?
You consider the opinion of the most important personality of your country, turk trash ?
I don't agree with you ,those man had a big contribution in the creation of your nation, so are respected persons.
The difference between you and me is that i like to read books especially about history , it's my prefered.
Even you have a strong memory ,you remember very well what told you, your 60 years old teacher about history when you was 10 years old. But this is not the right place for your personal memories. I am here to speak about history using greek and indipendent sources. I can use albanian sources, we have good scholars and we respect them, we don't consider them TRASH. But i like to challenge my self, my intelligence not you.

Yetos
10-09-14, 15:32
Euridiki ,was she illyrian ?

for you se could be even Turkish, like you,

how that syndrom is called? when you see Albanians everywhere?
PSYCHOSIS?

King Bardhyl
10-09-14, 16:45
for you se could be even Turkish, like you,

how that syndrom is called? when you see Albanians everywhere?
PSYCHOSIS?
http://i85.servimg.com/u/f85/13/95/49/70/tarn3k10.jpg
*Reference: Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn He contributed many chapters to the Cambridge Ancient History—on the rise of the Hellenistic world, on Alexander the Great, and on Parthia—and parts of the chapters between the death of Caesar and the death of Cleopatra. His account of Alexander, which was published separately in 1948 as Alexander the Great with a companion volume, Alexander the Great: Sources and Studies, showed an admiration verging on hero-worship. F. Adcock,‘Sir William Tarn’, PBA, 54 (1958), 253–62 • The Times (8 Nov 1957)• WWW • Venn, Alum. Cant.• The Eton register, 5 (privately printed, Eton, 1908)• private information (1971)• personal knowledge (1971)• census returns, 1881 • A. B. Bosworth, Alexander and the East (1996)

http://history-of-macedonia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ALB.2.jpg
http://history-of-macedonia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ALB.1.jpg
P 1, ALEXANDER THE GREAT, W.W. Tarn, Beacon Press, Boston, 1956 - See more at: http://frosina.org/834/#sthash.q4yqBADt.dpuf

Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that “Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood!” - See more at: http://frosina.org/834/#sthash.q4yqBADt.dpuf

King Bardhyl
10-09-14, 19:26
for you se could be even Turkish, like you,

how that syndrom is called? when you see Albanians everywhere?
PSYCHOSIS?

The greek "net-warriors" have destroyed wikipedia with their tentatives to hide the truth,but some things have forgotten to erase.
It`s an possibility for you Yetos to learn something new.
About grand mother of Leka I Madhe aka Alexander The Great, Eurydice:
http://books.google.com/books?id=QsJ183uUDkMC&pg=PA286&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://www.stoa.org/sol-bin/search.pl?db=REAL&search_method=QUERY&login=guest&enlogin=guest&user_list=LIST&page_num=1&searchstr=karanos&field=any&num_per_page=100
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZbI2hZBy_EkC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=eurydice+illyrian&source=bl&ots=q-bQiyHjBk&sig=328UgJt50kLU4z-K0JD3kqLuY8A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=v7THU-moHvH44QS9lIDQBg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=eurydice%20illyrian&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=QsJ183uUDkMC&pg=PA286&dq=eurydice+illyrian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=y7THU5qPH4KM4gTF4oC4DA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=eurydice%20illyrian&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=kfnYO2n-E8UC&pg=PA204&dq=eurydice+illyrian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ObjHU-XED-Tc4QSXtIGYBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=eurydice%20illyrian&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=uYGay_yqBLUC&pg=PA43&dq=eurydice+illyrian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-LvHU4adBYqM4gSYtYCwBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=eurydice%20illyrian&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=VsknAAAAYAAJ&q=eurydice+illyrian&dq=eurydice+illyrian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-LvHU4adBYqM4gSYtYCwBQ&redir_esc=y
After the lecture I gave to the Albanian origin of the current President of Greece Karolos Papoulias, this is an another lessons.
No need to thank me.
Sirras' origin is disputed, scholars being divided on whether he was of Lynkestian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynkestis) origin, or of Illyrian (Taulantii) origin.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirras#cite_note-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirras#cite_note-Kapetanopoulos-3) Plutarch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch) explicitly stated that his daughter, Eurydice, was an Illyrian,[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirras#cite_note-4) so does Libanius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libanius), as is stated in the 10th-century Byzantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine) encyclopaedia Suda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suda).
King Amyntas III of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyntas_III_of_Macedon) married the young princess Eurydice in about 390 BC, probably in an effort to secured peace allies against[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurydice_I_of_Macedon#cite_note-17) the Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), after he was defeated by them in 393 BC.
Alexander fled Macedon with his mother, dropping her off with her brother, King Alexander I of Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Epirus) in Dodona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodona), capital of the Molossians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians).[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great#cite_note-Roisman_2010_180-41) He continued to Illyria,[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great#cite_note-Roisman_2010_180-41) where he sought refuge with the Illyrian King and was treated as a guest, despite having defeated them in battle a few years before.
So it`s clear, he found refuge to his own.
So talk about the history and not insulting the others.
In the evening i will continue the lessons, how is created the myth of greek origine of Alexander the great.Who is interested i inviting to read page 2 of this thread:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30301-New-Archaiological-discoverie-in-Makedonian-tomps-could-be-Great-Alexander-s-family/page2

King Bardhyl
10-09-14, 19:28
Lynkestian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynkestis) were illyrians, but greek "net-warriors" and phillhellenes don`t agree with this.

Yetos
10-09-14, 19:31
one word,

PSYCHOSIS

Alexander's words,

<<ΠΛΕΙΣΤΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ>>
not kryesisht shqiptarë


from lake Lychnitis and south only Ellimians and Bryges lived, Ellimeians were Greek, Bryges were Thracians.

King Bardhyl
10-09-14, 20:18
HAHAHAHAHA, you learned the albanian word Kryesisht.
How learned you this ? After my lesson about the name of one your prime ministers,albanian origin Mr. Kriezi or Kryeziu. You will learn a lot of things. Just read with attention my post.
BTW ,you are from greek macedonia, how many albanian villages are today in your region?

King Bardhyl
10-09-14, 20:26
I agree with you he was albanian blood and culturally greek .
We are culturally american today ,but at the end of the day i am an PROUD ALBANIAN. And you what you are ,an prosfig or kutchovlah ?
BTW ,translate in english the greek word katsidiaris, pls.

Sile
10-09-14, 20:39
The greek "net-warriors" have destroyed wikipedia with their tentatives to hide the truth,but some things have forgotten to erase.
It`s an possibility for you Yetos to learn something new.
About grand mother of Leka I Madhe aka Alexander The Great, Eurydice:
http://books.google.com/books?id=QsJ183uUDkMC&pg=PA286&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://www.stoa.org/sol-bin/search.pl?db=REAL&search_method=QUERY&login=guest&enlogin=guest&user_list=LIST&page_num=1&searchstr=karanos&field=any&num_per_page=100
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZbI2hZBy_EkC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=eurydice+illyrian&source=bl&ots=q-bQiyHjBk&sig=328UgJt50kLU4z-K0JD3kqLuY8A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=v7THU-moHvH44QS9lIDQBg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=eurydice%20illyrian&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=QsJ183uUDkMC&pg=PA286&dq=eurydice+illyrian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=y7THU5qPH4KM4gTF4oC4DA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=eurydice%20illyrian&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=kfnYO2n-E8UC&pg=PA204&dq=eurydice+illyrian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ObjHU-XED-Tc4QSXtIGYBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=eurydice%20illyrian&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=uYGay_yqBLUC&pg=PA43&dq=eurydice+illyrian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-LvHU4adBYqM4gSYtYCwBQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=eurydice%20illyrian&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=VsknAAAAYAAJ&q=eurydice+illyrian&dq=eurydice+illyrian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-LvHU4adBYqM4gSYtYCwBQ&redir_esc=y
After the lecture I gave to the Albanian origin of the current President of Greece Karolos Papoulias, this is an another lessons.
No need to thank me.
Sirras' origin is disputed, scholars being divided on whether he was of Lynkestian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynkestis) origin, or of Illyrian (Taulantii) origin.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirras#cite_note-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirras#cite_note-Kapetanopoulos-3) Plutarch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch) explicitly stated that his daughter, Eurydice, was an Illyrian,[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirras#cite_note-4) so does Libanius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libanius), as is stated in the 10th-century Byzantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine) encyclopaedia Suda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suda).
King Amyntas III of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyntas_III_of_Macedon) married the young princess Eurydice in about 390 BC, probably in an effort to secured peace allies against[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurydice_I_of_Macedon#cite_note-17) the Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), after he was defeated by them in 393 BC.
Alexander fled Macedon with his mother, dropping her off with her brother, King Alexander I of Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Epirus) in Dodona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodona), capital of the Molossians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians).[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great#cite_note-Roisman_2010_180-41) He continued to Illyria,[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great#cite_note-Roisman_2010_180-41) where he sought refuge with the Illyrian King and was treated as a guest, despite having defeated them in battle a few years before.
So it`s clear, he found refuge to his own.
So talk about the history and not insulting the others.
In the evening i will continue the lessons, how is created the myth of greek origine of Alexander the great.Who is interested i inviting to read page 2 of this thread:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30301-New-Archaiological-discoverie-in-Makedonian-tomps-could-be-Great-Alexander-s-family/page2

Alexander was treated as a guest , say you presented...........clearly indicating he was not illyrian.

Molossians are one of the 14 tribes of epirotes

Yetos
10-09-14, 20:48
I agree with you he was albanian blood and culturally greek .
We are culturally american today ,but at the end of the day i am an PROUD ALBANIAN. And you what you are ,an prosfig or kutchovlah ?
BTW ,translate in english the greek word katsidiaris, pls.


The symptoms of Psychosis

the psychotic mania see everywhere consiparacy and mental illness

Now you tell us that Alexander was a psycho, that in day was Greek and at night Albanian?


for me is enough his words and his dedications,

as for me No Albanians in my area, never,
there were 7-10 000 Turk-Albans under Ottomans command, they had a tekke and a mahala/katounak
but we slain them all at WW1,
surprisingly, we let Turks live and exchange them at 22-23, but not their pets,
you see in Makedonia we say Ne De SKA.

King Bardhyl
10-09-14, 20:56
Alexander was treated as a guest , say you presented...........clearly indicating he was not illyrian.

Molossians are one of the 14 tribes of epirotes
I am just quoting what greek "net-warriors" have forgotten to erase in wikipedia.

King Bardhyl
10-09-14, 20:59
Alexander was treated as a guest , say you presented...........clearly indicating he was not illyrian.

Molossians are one of the 14 tribes of epirotes
And albanian are the descendant of epirotes. Look Sile if you want to discuss i will accept this but you have to use references and continue until the end the discussion. OIK?

King Bardhyl
10-09-14, 21:02
The symptoms of Psychosis

the psychotic mania see everywhere consiparacy and mental illness

Now you tell us that Alexander was a psycho, that in day was Greek and at night Albanian?


for me is enough his words and his dedications,

as for me No Albanians in my area, never,
there were 7-10 000 Turk-Albans under Ottomans command, they had a tekke and a mahala/katounak
but we slain them all at WW1,
surprisingly, we let Turks live and exchange them at 22-23, but not their pets,
you see in Makedonia we say Ne De SKA.

I know that you are an "brave" man, i know very well. Just a little degraded as kalergi say but no problem.
I am speaking about villages with orthodox albanian in greek Macedonia. How many villages are?
And about the word katsidiaris i am very curios, pls translate in english.

Yetos
10-09-14, 21:09
I know that you are an "brave" man, i know very well. Just a little degraded as kalergi say but no problem.
I am speaking about villages with orthodox albanian in greek Macedonia. How many villages are?
And about the word katsidiaris i am very curios, pls translate in english.

told you in my area none.
no arbanites in my area,
you see you know so little Greece,

there few families mostly Aromani from Bulgarec and moschopolis scattered,

you believe that Greece is full Arbanites, although max 150 000, and in Makedonia until 1990 NO Albanian, NO Arbaniti except some Aromani from N Epirus,
in the city of Thessaloniki might be some
told you, you got psychosis,
probably never came to Greece, to testify by your own eyes.

if and when you come, specially center makedonia, is easier to find a Slavophone (Skopje) than any Albanian,exception the immigrants from1990.

King Bardhyl
10-09-14, 21:10
Sile this is an article of Golden Down, the greek fascist party about the history of Albania. I can tell you that i agree totaly with them about the history of my country. A serious article, i have nothing to add.Tell to Yeto the Albanian-slayer (Ἀλβανιτοκτόνος) to translate.
Golden Down: Albanians, the Dorians of modern Hellenism
http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/13/95/49/70/47902110.jpg
http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/13/95/49/70/46234210.jpg
http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/13/95/49/70/46462910.jpg

King Bardhyl
10-09-14, 21:46
Sile this is an article of Golden Down, the greek fascist party about the history of Albania. I can tell you that i agree totaly with them about the history of my country. A serious article, i have nothing to add.Tell to Yeto the Albanian-slayer (Ἀλβανιτοκτόνος) to translate.
Golden Down: Albanians, the Dorians of modern Hellenism
http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/13/95/49/70/47902110.jpg
http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/13/95/49/70/46234210.jpg
http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/13/95/49/70/46462910.jpg

@ Sile
Our friend Yeto "the Albanian-slayer" not translated article, i am trying:

Hence the title is very telling: Greeks and Albanians: one people, one race, one homeland (OΈλληνες Αλβανοί: Ένας Λαός, μία Φυλή, μία Πατρίδα). The author who used an Albanian pseudonym (ΦΑΕΘΩΝ) complains of several attempts to downplay the prominent role of Albanians. He urges to re-evaluate the role of Albanians by exposing historical facts. According to the author who used an Albanian nickname, Albanians since Illyrian period have furnished Greece with valiant heroes as well as soldiers.
Some of the crucial points of that article are as following:

*To get a clear idea of Greece, one must not fail to remember the wars of Pyrrhus, Queen Teuta, Demetrius of Pharos, Genthios against Roman Empire.

*Throughout Byzantine period, Illyrian commanders like Velissarios and Vranas, but even the emperors like Constandine the Great (a Dardanian from Naissus), Anastasios, Julian and Leon Zguros give the proper answer to history.

*The sturdy warriors who died in battlefields of Peleponnesus, Rumelia and the islands, Epirus and several other regions did their best to help their southern brethren, who were revolted against Ottomans.

*Therefore, Albanians are rightfully deemed as Dorians of the new Hellenism (Αρβανίτες - Οι δωριείς του νεώτερου ελληνισμούhttp://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/images/smilies/set1_b/sailor.gif).

* Kokalis, Andrucos, Kacionis, Grindalis, Plaputas, Kacandonis, Mjaulis, Kolokotronis, Bubulina, Karajskaqis, Kunduriotis and Botsaris were all Albanians, who distinguished themselves on their anti-Ottoman wars.

In spite of several fractions and institutions, our honest opinion has not ignored the price of sacrifices. In the same vain, we regenerate our origin, by dealing with an important issue, by determining our descent and blood. By busting the propaganda of politics and ignorance, we should point to the history in order to find out undeniable similarities between Greeks and Albanians.

To start from the language, we are about to give a couple of comparisons between the language of Arvanites and that of Homer. (The article gives a list of some commonalities between the language of Arvanites and that of Homer…).

(...)Being aware of the value of war and the actions of our heroes, we express a historical justice by honoring their sacrifices regardless their origin. To get a clear idea of Greece, one must not fail to remember the wars of Pyrrhus, Queen Teuta, Demetrius of Pharos, Genthios against Roman Empire. Throughout Byzantine period, Illyrian commanders like Velissarios and Vranas, but even the emperors like Constandine the Great (a Dardanian from Naissus), Anastasios, Julian and Leon Zguros give the proper answer to history. The sturdy warriors who died in battlefields of Peleponnesus, Rumelia and the islands, Epirus and several other regions did their best to help their southern brethren, who were revolted against Ottomans. Therefore, Albanians are rightfully deemed as Dorians of the new Hellenism. Beyond the fanatical attempts to conceal one of the brightest elements of our history, appears the sacrifice of Arvanites during the national revolution of 1821. The sacrifice of Ghika family in Walachia and Moldavia, the courage of Buas, that of Shkurta family, Buzara, Bardhans, Lalas and Souliotes up to the rise of uprising in Messenia on mars of 1821 from Dredhes, numerous warriors who defended the islands of Hydra and Spetzai, outstanding figures like Kokalis, Andrucos, Kacionis, Grindalis, Plaputas, Kacandonis, Mjaulis, Kolokotronis, Bubulina, Karajskaqis, Kunduriotis and Botsaris. All of them distinguished themselves in the wars against Ottomans and they were descendants of Alexander the Great of Balkans, Scanderbeg along with the misunderstood personality of Ali Pasha.

* The author Antonios Androutsopoulos (aka Periandros) is of Albanian origin. He is being sentenced to 21 years imprisonment for the attempted murder of university student Dimitris Kousouris and another two people in 1998, outside the Evelpidon courthouses. The height of irony is that those leftists which were assaulted by Androutsopoulos always courageously defended Albanians in Greece.
http://content-mcdn.ethnos.gr/filesystem/images/20120401/engine/assets_LARGE_t_420_54047762_type12128.jpg

So Sile the most extremist group in Greece, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_%28political_party%29
has this opinion about Albanians and all historical persons mentioned in article. All the Greece know this things only our friend Yeto "the Albanian-slayer" does not accept.

King Bardhyl
10-09-14, 21:53
This is beautifull:
* "Kokalis, Andrucos, Kacionis, Grindalis, Plaputas, Kacandonis, Mjaulis, Kolokotronis, Bubulina, Karajskaqis, Kunduriotis and Botsaris were all Albanians, who distinguished themselves on their anti-Ottoman wars".
The author has forgotten many other names, heroes of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence but no problem.
It`s an long list of president and prime minister of Greece all self declared PROUD ALBANIAN , but no problem.

King Bardhyl
10-09-14, 21:59
And our friend Yeto "the Albanian-slayer" where is hidden now?

arvistro
10-09-14, 23:40
This is beautifull:
* "Kokalis, Andrucos, Kacionis, Grindalis, Plaputas, Kacandonis, Mjaulis, Kolokotronis, Bubulina, Karajskaqis, Kunduriotis and Botsaris were all Albanians, who distinguished themselves on their anti-Ottoman wars".
Their surnames sound Lithuanian -as, -is, etc.
Based on above it is clear that Alexander was Balt. :)

On serious note - you have plenty of other threads to go on your Greek-Albanian discussions. This is the third or fourth one I see this discussion over and over. Surnames above have nothing to do with Aleksandr's origins. And even less with the tomb in subject. Guys, really...

albanopolis
11-09-14, 00:23
Their surnames sound Lithuanian -as, -is, etc.
Based on above it is clear that Alexander was Balt. :)

On serious note - you have plenty of other threads to go on your Greek-Albanian discussions. This is the third or fourth one I see this discussion over and over. Surnames above have nothing to do with Aleksandr's origins. And even less with the tomb in subject. Guys, really...
Greek names or surnames 90% of the time end with an s. I think this is the case with the Lithuanian names as well. Even if the names will not end with an s Greeks will put one for you, because their sentence building rule will not allow a name with no s. But I don't know Greeks but Albanian language shows a distant link with the Baltic languages. If curious check wiki on alb language.
As for the Tomb found in Greek Macedonia the whole thing is amazing. It really shows the sophistication and reaches of Hellenic culture. It also shows that for some life was a blessing, for many a curse. Massive work in the Tomb shows the elite had enormous wealth accumulated on the back of others.
The Greeks would have owned a monopoly of antiquity if it was not for Albos.

Yetos
11-09-14, 02:02
[QUOTE=King Bardhyl;438580

* The author Antonios Androutsopoulos (aka Periandros) is of Albanian origin. He is being sentenced to 21 years imprisonment for the attempted murder of university student Dimitris Kousouris and another two people in 1998, outside the Evelpidon courthouses. The height of irony is that those leftists which were assaulted by Androutsopoulos always courageously defended Albanians in Greece.


[/QUOTE]



Psychosis

the man see Albanians everywhere,

what next?

Kolokotronis an Albanian since when?

in his memmories say other

Katsonis
Katsantonis
karaiskakis Albanians since when?

According to the local historical tradition of the Evrytania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evrytania) Prefecture, he was a Sarakatsanos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarakatsani) klepht leader born in the village of Marathos (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Marathos,_Agrafa&action=edit&redlink=1), Agrafa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrafa_%28Municipality%29). His real name was Antonis Makriyannis (Αντώνης Μακρυγιάννης), son of Yannis Makriyannis (born in Petrovouni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrovouni), Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus)—not to be confused with Yannis Makriyannis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yannis_Makriyannis) born in Avoriti, Doris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doris_%28Greece%29)).

katsonis the same

-Katsan- shows sarakatsans

Are you making Sarakatsans now Albanians?
who is next?
Cretans? Grekani?

you made kolokotronis an Albanian

Wasn't his father that slay 10 000 Albanians who supported Turks after Orlov's revolt,
in His memories say his was Greek, not Albanian, you like to make him Albanian,
but in his memories he say: First for Albanian is money and crime,

wasn't the Albanian who Burned Arbaniti island of Spetses at 1770's? YES
wasn't the Albanians the ones who Slain all the Aigio citizens about 4 000? yes?

Kolokotronis in his memories say his father beat them at Tripolitsa at 1778/9


about golden dawn, I am not fun of them,but Let me remind 21st Waffen mountain Division or SS SKANDERBERG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/21st_SS_Division_Logo.svg/125px-21st_SS_Division_Logo.svg.png

THE NAZI ALBANIAN EAGLE?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg _%281st_Albanian%29


and also let me remind you the Xylia
the Italo-Albanian organisation which later cooperate with Nazi's and execute the Greek Nobles and elected authorities in their houses
promoting Mazhar DINO and ShaLUKA and take part of Greece as Chameria

in the video all the documents that Nazis gave to Greeks after their retreat when war was lost for them


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHQRVAB6Dmc

whatch every minute 2:13 and 3:59
the Authentic ITALIAN AND GERMAN DOCUMENTS

sorry
you ask for it,

how many times we have to send you back? how many times you invade our lands? with the help of Turks?

do not worry, next is near, IS is already in Balkans, we expect you Turk.


the wise old man warn us about you through his memories,

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608024724930954305&pid=15.1&H=160&W=160


besides In Makedonia we know you from the times you burn down Moschopolis
cause took part in first greek revolt the Orlov's

you see in Makedonia NEDE SKA,

Sorry but from the times of Vallavan pasha you did nothing except obey the Ottoman Turks,
Slay every Liberty spirit in balkans,
and even at WW1 when Austrians saved you, you will still stay under ottomans.

PATHETIC

Sile
11-09-14, 08:34
And albanian are the descendant of epirotes. Look Sile if you want to discuss i will accept this but you have to use references and continue until the end the discussion. OIK?

look bard, discuss this with your albanian friend as he placed the article of epirotes are albanians
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30301-New-Archaiological-discoverie-in-Makedonian-tomps-could-be-Great-Alexander-s-family?p=438544&viewfull=1#post438544

Leave me out of any conversation about anyone you want to discuss that happened after the fall of the roman empire.............I am not interested

King Bardhyl
11-09-14, 15:32
Psychosis


PATHETIC


What`s the problem with you why you offend? I tried to translate the article, have any objection to the translation?
If you have objection about the article go and tell him who did it not to me.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
11-09-14, 20:21
''-Μακράν εντεύθεν, βέβηλοι !"

@Yetos maybe i should call -Echetlaeus :)

@ Βαρδύλιε! -You looted the thread !
You said lies with purpose-(?) and you "talk" too much-(?), not Dorian at all.
You spread rumours about something which iam in a deep concern
G.Karaiskakis-(Μπιθικώτσης/Λάλας), Sarakatsans=Αlbanians?=Arvanites? (weird stuff here!)
-Both Arvanites(;) with wishfull thinkings to be Sarakatsans? ( The Pindus finests.) Nothing new here, the strange is how you deliver to the forum chit/chat bulls from a late night conversation beetween a media publisher/persona and a folk/pop singer as historical facts.

(!)The sarakatsans that you claimed as albanians, almost extinct from the turkalbans of Hali Pasha.
(!)The foto with the happy soldier occupy my territorial state of origin, Achelloos valley/Agrafa. I suppose you are not just fan of history you are making parapolitic mythistories!
(!)The place you are pointing it is and it was always Greece and it will always be Hellas. ( not illyrian, check your patriot Aristo.)
"...αυτή δ' 'εστίν η περί Δωδώνην και Άχελλώο [...]
ώκουν γάρ οί Σελλοί ενταύθα και οι καλούμενοι τότε μέν Γραικοί,
νυν δε Έλληνες
Aristotle(Μετεωρ 352b)

(!)Everybody is very proud here for the Greek ancestry we carry like you.

(very personally)
(!)Actually i do not care me even if iam descendant of Kumplai khan even from Suleiman, iam speaking Greek now and im Greek.
( body curly hair included and of course the greek toes, or royal toes which i prefer... -I remember now, show us your feet Bardyll, you liar... I recognise your short legs and your low butt from miles.)
(!)the only thing you are proving how desperate you wish to be... a person with origin.



Beyond the Kuyper belt and further more... It is still Hellenic world.

King Bardhyl
11-09-14, 21:14
''-Μακράν εντεύθεν, βέβηλοι !"

@Yetos maybe i should call -Echetlaeus :)

@ Βαρδύλιε! -You looted the thread !
You said lies with purpose-(?) and you "talk" too much-(?), not Dorian at all.
You spread rumours about something which iam in a deep concern
G.Karaiskakis-(Μπιθικώτσης/Λάλας), Sarakatsans=Αlbanians?=Arvanites? (weird stuff here!)
-Both Arvanites(;) with wishfull thinkings to be Sarakatsans? ( The Pindus finests.) Nothing new here, the strange is how you deliver to the forum chit/chat bulls from a late night conversation beetween a media publisher/persona and a folk/pop singer as historical facts.

(!)The sarakatsans that you claimed as albanians, almost extinct from the turkalbans of Hali Pasha.
(!)The foto with the happy soldier occupy my territorial state of origin, Achelloos valley/Agrafa. I suppose you are not just fan of history you are making parapolitic mythistories!
(!)The place you are pointing it is and it was always Greece and it will always be Hellas. ( not illyrian, check your patriot Aristo.)
"...αυτή δ' 'εστίν η περί Δωδώνην και Άχελλώο [...]
ώκουν γάρ οί Σελλοί ενταύθα και οι καλούμενοι τότε μέν Γραικοί,
νυν δε Έλληνες
Aristotle(Μετεωρ 352b)

(!)Everybody is very proud here for the Greek ancestry we carry like you.

(very personally)
(!)Actually i do not care me even if iam descendant of Kumplai khan even from Suleiman, iam speaking Greek now and im Greek.
( body curly hair included and of course the greek toes, or royal toes which i prefer... -I remember now, show us your feet Bardyll, you liar... I recognise your short legs and your low butt from miles.)
(!)the only thing you are proving how desperate you wish to be... a person with origin.



Beyond the Kuyper belt and further more... It is still Hellenic world.

Giasou Gigifies, Termathiseos the article is not mine


I only have translated.Your objection can tell to the author, which is a greek like you.







My translation was accurate?

King Bardhyl
11-09-14, 21:18
BTW can you translate this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4A8U0I7W_Y
συνέντευξη
Γρηγόρης Μπιθικώτσης
ΘΑΝΑΣΗΣ ΛΑΛΑΣ

- Αφού είναι ωραία η ζωή, γιατί να τελειώνει;
«Είναι νόμος, τελειώνει. Εγώ διαβάζω πολύ, πιστεύω ότι λίγοι άνθρωποι διαβάζουν όσο διαβάζω εγώ. Τώρα διαβάζω το ένθετο που έχουν τα "Νέα" για την ιστορία του αιώνα. Και λέει τι τράβηξε το κάθε κράτος, πόσες φορές έγιναν πόλεμοι, πόσοι πέρασαν απ' την Ελλάδα... Εγώ θα σου πω κάτι που δεν το ξέρεις ούτε εσύ ούτε κανείς. Πώς πέθανε ο Καραϊσκάκης; Και γιατί λέμε - θα το γράψεις έτσι όπως θα σ' το πω - γιατί λέμε "στ' αρχίδια μου"; Ο Καραϊσκάκης ήταν στρατηγός στον Περαία και ο Κουντουριώτης ήταν ναύαρχος. Τους άλλαξε λοιπόν ο Καποδίστριας μ' ένα στρατηγό που δε θυμάμαι τώρα τ' όνομά του και στη θέση του Κουντουριώτη έβαλε έναν άλλο ναύαρχο. Ο της ξηράς στρατηγός τού είπε του Καραϊσκάκη ότι μες στον Αγιο Σπυρίδωνα στον Περαία είναι τρακόσιοι Aρβανίτες μουσουλμάνοι και θα πας εκεί έτσι κι αλλιώς κι αλλιώτικα. Ο Καραϊσκάκης τότε του είπε ότι "αυτό που μου λες το γράφω στ' αρχίδια μου". Ο άλλος τσαντίστηκε επειδή τσαντίστηκε ο Καραϊσκάκης. Σου λέει, στρατηγός είμαι κι εγώ, θα μου πεις πώς να πάω στον Αγιο Σπυρίδωνα στους Αρβανίτες που έχουν κλειστεί εκεί μέσα; Αφού Αρβανίτης ήταν κι ο Καραϊσκάκης. Οπότε ο στρατηγός ο άλλος έβαλε έναν Τούρκο και του 'ριξε μια σφαίρα στο αφτί και πέθανε ο Καραϊσκάκης. Το ξέρεις αυτό;».

albanopolis
13-09-14, 00:10
@ King Bardyll

The Greeks and Slavs were with Skanderberg,
the ALbanians were with Vallavan pasha.



What is wrong with this Englishman? He is saying the same thing I am saying: "Macedonia is not Greek"
Crazy no, either the English don't quite know haw to read books or Greeks are lairs!


http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/HEADER3.jpg


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Macedonia and Greece by John Shea 1997, pp.6-21
Excellent analysis of the Macedonian-Greek conflict
It would probably be best to begin with a presentation of the Greek argument. This argument has been disseminated in various ways in America, including full-page political advertisements in leading newspapers, travel advertisements inviting people to visit "Macedonia" (meaning northern Greece), English-language materials published in Athens and distributed by the Greek embassy, and pamphlets distributed in Greek Orthodox churches. Recent statements by the Greek government have not deviated from these sources, so they remain a fair means of discovering what the Greeks appear to be concerned about. On the 26th of April 1992 and the 10th of May 1992, an organization called "Americans for the Just Resolution of the Macedonian Issue" placed full page advertisements in the New York Times. The first of these was headlined, "Macedonia, what's in a name"; the second, "The name "Macedonia" is a time bomb! Mr President, you can defuse it." In both cases the appeal was directed at then president George Bush. The first of these advertisements focuses on the idea of a threat to Greece from a state called Macedonia. While the text says, "Recognize the Republic of Skopje, yes!" it adds, "With the name 'Republic of Macedonia,' why?" Thus, on the face of, it the problem is not so much the existence of the new state, but the possible consequences of it bearing the name Macedonia. The implication is that this name will somehow rekindle past territorial ambitions that would not be so easily stirred with a different name.
The advertisement gives a lot of attention to the involvement of Tito and Yugoslavia in the Greek civil war, referring for instance to "former communist designs on sovereign Greece." It informs the reader that
"in 1946, Tito and Stalin armed insurgents to trigger a bloody Civil war and unimaginable years of suffering for the Greek nation.... Today, Skopje's government aims to perpetuate the nightmare."
The advertisement goes on to say that the "Skopje's government":


claims that Macedonians exist "under occupation" in Greece;
calls for the "liberation" of all Macedonians, even those who regard themselves as free Greeks;
issues currency depicting landmarks of sovereign Greek territory;
publishes maps incorporating fully one-third of mainland Greece;
has a constitution proclaiming Tito's expansionist goals, calling for the unification of Greek provinces under a fabricated 'Macedonian' nation."

According to this ad, recognition of an independent republic called Macedonia would encourage aggression, increase tensions, destabilize the Balkans, and validate a "shameless fraud."
In this last statement we have a reference to the wider issue concerning the name Macedonia. The Greeks say that they have the sole right to use the name, for various historical reasons. The rest of the advertisement contains statements from American and world leaders (including American senators, the president of the European Parliament, the prime minister of Australia and the Greek prime minister), opposing recognition of the state of Macedonia up to the time the ad was placed, and an open letter to President Bush appealing in particular to historic concerns about "communist expansionism" in the area, the bitter experience of the Greek civil war, and previous American support of anti-communist forces in Greece. In this latter connection it is worth considering the quoted statement by a former United States Secretary of State on December 26, 1944: "This government considers any talk of a Macedonian 'nation,' Macedonian 'Fatherland' or Macedonian national consciousness' to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality ... a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece."
The May 10 ad is much less detailed. It quotes a New York Times story (datelined May 2, 1992) on the European community's willingness to recognize the "breakaway republic of Macedonia" only if it changed its name, and once again appeals to past American concern about instability in the Balkans in general and about Macedonia in particular. "Since the break-up of Yugoslavia," reads the ad, "its people have suffered the relentless gunfire of hostilities: one tragedy after another - all stemming from ethnic violence and border disputes. The single stable border in the Balkans is provided by Greece. Now the breakaway southernmost Yugoslavian republic of Skopje insists on being recognized as 'Macedonia."' The advertisement goes on to say that in 1944, the Roosevelt administration recognized Greek ethnic, cultural and historical rights to the name and condemned any reference to a so-called Macedonian "nation." Describing the same issue today as a "dangerous ticking time bomb," the ad says that recognition of what it calls "Skopje" as the "Republic of Macedonia" would legitimize and encourage extremist and false claims upon sovereign Greek territory. Furthermore, the advertisement suggests a threat of war in the Balkans in which the United States could become involved.
Any thoughtful reader of these advertisements not versed in the history of Macedonia and Greece could not help being concerned about the issues raised. To a large degree I will allow other international commentators to pass judgment on the strength of these Greek fears at a later point in the book, giving here only a brief indication of an alternative viewpoint. Before that comment, however, I will present the rest of the Greek position, expanding on the question of the "Greek ethnic, cultural and historical rights to the name." I will use, in particular, quotations from pamphlets distributed from Greek Orthodox churches, apparently deriving from Greek government publications available in the Greek embassy during 1992. I do this so that the Greek position is accurately represented. Here are some of the important claims that are made.
1. The New York Times advertisement of 4/26/92 says, "4000 years of Greek History, 4000 years of Greek Culture, 4000 years of Greek Heritage... Skopje's government seeking recognition as the 'Republic of Macedonia' perpetuates a fraud." Pamphlets distributed in churches stated, "Macedonia has been Greek for 3,000 years. In ancient times Macedonians spoke Greek, worshipped Greek gods, expressed their creativity through Greek art and maintained a refined Greek culture ... all archaeological discoveries continue to unearth more information attesting to the indisputable Greekness of Macedonia."
2. "Out of the blue, in 1944, the Yugoslav communist leader, Tito, wishing to weaken Serbia on the one hand, and set the footing for future territorial claims against Greece on the other, schemingly gave South Serbia the Greek name 'Macedonia' and re-wrote the 'history' books to declare that ancient Macedonia was Slavic and that these people were descendants of Alexander the Great."
3. "The existence of a 'Slav' Macedonia could never be, and indeed, has never been supported either by historical data, or by ethnographic maps, or by statistics, or by some census, or by archaeological finds, or by even an obscure mention of such a nation from antiquity till today."
4. "Macedonia has been the name of Northern Greece for more than 3000 years. The Greek region ... has one of the most homogeneous populations in the world (98.5% Greek). Its population speaks Greek, feels Greek, is Greek."
5. "An independent 'Macedonia' would monopolize the name at the expense of the real Macedonians who are twice the number of the Slavs. The use and abuse of the name would cause widespread confusion as is already apparent."
6. "Macedonia is an indispensable part of Greece's historical heritage it cannot identify, in an ethnic sense another nation."
7. "The Skopje 'language' is undeniably Slavic."
8. "The Slavs did not set foot in the Balkans until 1000 years after Alexander the Great."
9. "The name 'Macedonia (which is etymologically Greek) was in use at least 1500 years before the arrival of the first Slavs."
10. "Every known Macedonian town, river and person had a Greek name – Philip (lover of horse), Alexander (protector of men), Archelaus (leader of people), Amyntas (defender), Ptolemy (warlike), Bucephalus (ox-head)."
11. "The Old Testament (Daniel Ch. 8) and the New Testament (Acts Ch. 17) confirm the Greekness of Alexander and the Macedonians."
12. "It was the Greek language that was taken to Asia (Bible written in Greek) and cities with Greek names and institutions that were founded."
13. "There are 60,000 archaeological finds that confirm that the Macedonians were Greek in language, culture and religion."
14. "The home of the Greek gods was in Macedonia. Is it feasible that a people would worship its national gods in a foreign country?"
15. " Yugoslav Macedonia is not even geographically in the territory occupied by ancient Macedonia."
16. "Independent sources in this century (Turkish Census of 1904 when the region was part of the Ottoman Empire, League of Nations Census of 1926 and declassified British Archives 1934) make no mention of any ethnic Macedonians whatsoever until the Communists came along with their preposterous concoction to dominate the Balkans."
17. "By appropriating and maintaining the name 'Macedonia' the Slavs are laying the foundations for future territorial claims against the region of the same name in Greece. They have clearly expressed this intention by:- (a) plagiarizing and blatantly falsifying history (b)... continuously using maps and emblems that include northern Greece as part of 'Macedonia~ and (c) refusing to comply with the directive of the European Community in its declaration of 16th December 1991 to (i) cease hostile propaganda; (ii) commit itself to guarantees that it has no territorial claims and (iii) not use a denomination (Macedonia) which implies expansionist intentions."
This set of statements was widely circulated, with minor changes made for particular locations, in different parts of the English-speaking world. Copies of the main points were distributed through Greek churches, and were frequently published in the "letters to the editor" sections of local newspapers. Clearly the Greek communities were very keen to see the message spread and went to great organizational effort and expense to see that this happened. I have no doubt that most of those engaged in this effort hold these beliefs very sincerely. Indeed the mass demonstrations by Greeks in various parts of the world suggest deep emotional commitment to these ideas. All the more reason, of course, to examine the claims more closely.
In this book I will examine the Greek claims as fully as possible and present the views of historians, linguists, and other experts who will paint a different picture for us. While there are histories and anthropological analyses of the Greek and Macedonian positions emerging at the present time, to my knowledge there has been no significant presentation of the other side of the argument outlined above, nor any analysis of how it fits into broader Balkan politics centered on Macedonia at the present time. Macedonian interest groups in various parts of the world have taken to the streets themselves, indicating their distress at what they say is a one-sided airing of the Macedonian question in the media. Like the Greeks, the Macedonians express a strong emotional commitment to their interpretation of the situation.
I do not claim to be unbiased, though in my examination of the evidence available to me I have tried to be as objective as possible. When I began my own inquiry about the topic, I wanted to know the truth. I began the process of discovery from a state of quite profound ignorance. I had talked with elderly Macedonian people about their lives, and about stories they remembered from the old days in Macedonia, and the things they told me often conflicted with the arguments of modern-day Greeks. I knew that these Macedonians, at least, thought of themselves as Macedonian long before the time of Tito. They told stories of Macedonian revolutionaries who, at the turn of the century, wanted a state separate from Bulgaria. They described how Bulgarian agents infiltrated the revolutionary movement and assassinated Macedonian leaders, and voiced a prevailing belief that Aegean Slavic Macedonians had been persecuted by successive Greek governments. But they told me little about the broader facts of the history of the Macedonians over the past two and a half thousand years.
My readings have established to my satisfaction the weakness of the Greek historical argument. It is also clear to me that national aspirations were alive and well in Macedonia long before Tito arrived on the scene. But by and large the Macedonians have had a pretty miserable time of it, dominated by one greater power or another for much of their history, a domination most recently perpetrated by the same European nations who were slow to support the Macedonians in the 1990s. As the Irish patriot Roger Casement (executed by the British after the 1916 uprising in Ireland) put it: “I know of two tragic histories in the world - that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.”
Casement was speaking primarily of the Macedonians who then inhabited the lands that fell within the borders of the ancient Macedonian homeland. A majority of them were Slavic speakers when Greece conquered a large part of Macedonia, taking it from the Turks, just before the First World War. Casement's rather eloquent lines by themselves must cause us to ponder Greek claims that a non-Greek Macedonia was merely a Communist invention.
Before I present my argument, I need to make a few introductory statements to establish the context of the discussion.
First, it should be noted that the Greek claims are a new political development. Just a few years ago the Greeks preferred not to use the name Macedonia at all. The Macedonian news magazine (Skopje, February 15, 1992, pp. 20-2 1) claims that "there were periods in Greece when use of the name 'Macedonia' was avoided with administrative measures. After the Balkan wars (191213) the area of Macedonia under Greek rule was called ... the 'New territory' while the Ministry in Salonika was called the Ministry of Northern Greece. Whence such zeal to pre-empt the names 'Macedonia' and 'Macedonian' today when so recently they avoided them as the devil avoids church?" Peter Hill, professor of Slavonic studies at the University of Hamburg in Germany, makes a similar point:
Funnily enough, northern Greece was for many years called just that, "Northern Greece"... and the name Macedonia was considered somehow suspect.... But three years ago that all changed. Now that name, Macedonia, is at the heart of it dispute that has paralyzed the foreign policy of the European Community and brought thousands of people on to the streets of Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra and Brussels.
Second, I have tried to present ideas that can be critically examined. I have tried to avoid insupportable claims, and have cited the sources from which I have drawn my conclusions. It seems reasonable to me to read the views of people who are experts in the field, and to adjust my own conclusions on the basis of some aggregation of what they have said. You might think that this matter could be dealt with quite simply by referring to such historical experts. But one of the problems is that the Greek "experts" often do not agree with the "experts" from other parts of the world. Not surprisingly, the Greek experts almost invariably take a nationalistic line. The ancient Greeks are said to have been imbued with a "mythic imagination." They tended to interpret historical events in the light of their understanding of the role of supernatural powers in their lives, and of course they were often inclined to present stories that showed Greeks in the best possible light. What could be more natural? It is hardly surprising that writers throughout the world do exactly the same kind of thing these days. Bulgarians and Serbians tend to favor views that support their own nations' historical perspectives about Macedonia. Sometimes, though, Greek writers have gone to such extremes that other historians have actually ridiculed their conclusions. I will give some examples later on. Thus it is necessary to tread very carefully amongst the expert opinions. For this reason when discussing historical issues I have tended to give preference to writers from Britain, France, Germany, and the United States. When dealing with contemporary matters I have given much greater emphasis to news sources and interpretations from within Macedonia. Generally these are about uncontroversial matters of recorded fact.
Third, in some ways this kind of analysis is little more than an empty academic game, since we have to talk in part about ancient history. It is not a very convincing exercise to justify the boundaries of modern states on the basis of things that happened more than two thousand years ago. Ancient historical claims seem of trivial importance beside the realities of the present day. To people who live in former English colonies, such as Americans, Canadians and Australians, a lot of these ideas seem very strange. After all, at the very least the Slavic speakers have lived for around 1500 years in the territory that has been called Macedonia. (Some historians present a more extreme position, claiming that the invading Slavs were really just the returning Paeones who had inhabited northern and western parts of Macedonia before the Macedonian kingdom existed.) They would not have had to wait 1500 years to be entitled to call themselves Americans, Canadians or Australians. They have been there at least as long as the Germanic tribes, the Angles, Saxons and Jutes have been in Britain. No one seems to think it a problem that the English use a Celtic name, "Britain," for their land. So we have clear examples of this sort of thing happening elsewhere in the world without any necessary belittling of the original peoples and their historic achievements. However, we have to recognize that rationality may have little influence in matters of national pride. Nonetheless it can be argued that the Macedonians, by virtue of 1500 years of occupation, have a pre-eminent claim to the place and to the name, regardless of who lived there 3000 years ago. And that is precisely the case for recognizing the right of Macedonians everywhere to call themselves by that name today. Of course I will make the longer historical case too.
Greek advertising throughout the world has made a great play of using what are said to be historical facts to support the attack on the Macedonians. So I will discuss some of these ideas first before turning to the more recent past and to contemporary events. It is worth noting that after Macedonians voted to become independent from the Yugoslav state, the only resistance to their international recognition came from Greece. The other eleven members of the European Community accepted the Republic of Macedonia's claims to independence and to the use of a name which the population of these lands has used for thousands of years. Greece was able to block this recognition for a considerable time because of an EC requirement for consensus in its decision-making. The same requirement for consensus kept Macedonia out of some European organizations up until the end of 1995. It is something of a paradox that throughout its attack on Macedonia, Greece, claiming a threat from Macedonia, has been seen by its European allies and America as a greater threat to peace in the Balkans.
The issue of the Slavic minority in northern Greece is one that deserves attention in its own right. It has some bearing on our understanding of certain issues in areas bordering the state of Macedonia. In its annual reports from 1991 through 1994, the United States State Department complained about the Greek government's denial of civil rights to minority groups, including Slavic speakers in Aegean Macedonia and Turkish speakers in Thrace. This leads us into a fascinating exploration of the redistribution of populations in northern Greece earlier this century, and the repeated efforts by strong central government in Greece to create the impression of a tightly knit and coherent Greek-speaking community. At first blush one might think that northern Greeks have a legitimate claim to at least share the name Macedonia with the Vardar Macedonians. However, it turns out that the immediate forbears of a majority of the Greek population of northern Greece originate from outside of the Balkans, in Western Turkey. These northern Greeks are not indigenous to the area, a fact to be taken into consideration when seeking to discover who has a legitimate claim on the name Macedonia. We might also wonder at the unwillingness of Greece to use the name Macedonia when it conquered the southern part of Macedonia in the first Balkan war, and the apparent rehabilitation of the name in recent years.
Several analysts, who will be referred to later, suggest that Greek actions should not be seen in isolation, but must be viewed in the light of a strong alliance with Serbia. As we view Balkan events now, and see Serbians attempting to expand Serbian territory, first in one former Yugoslav state and then another, with very modest success up to the present time, we might wonder whether Serbia has designs on Macedonia. Certainly some Macedonians believe this to be the case. Skopje was the capital of the great fourteenth-century Serbian Empire, and just a few decades ago the Serbs ruled this territory by conquest. They have engaged in provocative border actions that have drawn in United Nations troops with a major United States contingent. It is not disputed that the Greeks are the strongest allies of the Serbs in the Balkans, and that they have reached some kind of accord with the Serbian leader Milosevic. What we cannot know yet is whether some master plan guides both the Greeks and the Serbians.
By way of introduction to some of the content that follows, here are some of the conclusions that seem to me arguable after my examination of historical literature. These points briefly deal with the list of Greek claims above, both those published in national newspaper advertisements and those distributed throughout Greek communities.
Firstly, regarding the appeals to the American people based on concerns arising from the Greek civil war and the involvement of Yugoslavia and the U.S.S.R. in support of that conflict: The Macedonia under discussion by Edward Stettinius, United States Secretary of State, in 1944, was the "Greater Macedonia' that had been dismembered by Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and Albania after the Balkan wars some thirty years earlier. The nation under discussion today encompasses less than 38 percent of that Greater Macedonia. Furthermore, Greece acknowledges this new nation's right of existence. Can we believe that the use of the name Macedonia by the new state somehow constitutes a threat to Greek borders? It should be remembered that Slavic-speaking Macedonian partisans fought against the Nazis on the side of the allies (and in alliance with Tito) during the Second World War. They were among the most reliable and successful of the resistance fighters against the German and Bulgarian invaders. Their language of command was Macedonian. Their motivation to resist the Bulgarian and German occupation came partly from being forced to use Bulgarian language and customs in their schools. Since Tito himself was Croatian, and Croatians traditionally have been more sympathetic to Macedonians than Serbians, it is perhaps not surprising that he took advantage of this motivating force within the Macedonian community and harnessed it to the new socialist state he forged out of the diverse groups that became the new Yugoslavia.
There is little doubt that Tito saw the possibility of expanding his sphere of interest into parts of Greek territory. At one point the new socialist Bulgarian government, fired with ideological righteousness, expressed its concern at the repression of the Macedonian language wherever it existed, including Western Bulgaria (Pirin Macedonia), and seemed on the verge of forming a Balkan federation with the Yugoslav states. At the time of this activity, the issue of a greater Macedonian state was being proposed; both the U.S.S.R. and Yugoslavia were supporting insurgent forces in the Greek civil war; and Macedonian nationalists who had fought with the partisans had joined in an alliance with the Greek Communists in an effort to achieve a freedom which had been denied them previously. A Balkan federation incorporating a Greater Macedonia and other Yugoslav states and Bulgaria would have presented a very strong barrier to Russian influence. Stalin soon applied pressure to Bulgaria to change its tune and stopped support for the Greek Communists and Macedonian partisans. Thus it was not just the United States that was concerned about the development of a Greater Macedonia. On this issue the United States saw eye-to-eye with the U.S.S.R. This was the turning point in the Greek civil war. The statements made by American political figures must be understood in the context of those times. With changes in the political situation, American political figures changed their analyses of Balkan history.
The small Macedonian state has publicly, formally, and repeatedly disavowed any territorial claim on Greek lands since the Greeks first made their accusations. None of the surrounding states has expressed any support for the idea of a greater Macedonia, since it would threaten their own borders. It is simply not a live issue. Furthermore, it is unrealistic to think that a tiny nation of little more than two million people, with no heavy arms, no air force and no navy, could be a threat to the Greeks, who have been supplied and supported in their armed forces by NATO and the United States to the tune of billions of dollars in past years. No political analysts in the United States believes that this could happen.
I will now respond to the broader historical issues, dealing with these in the order listed above. My responses are a summary of ideas that will be expanded elsewhere in this book. For the moment they lay the groundwork for the more detailed arguments that follow.
1. Three thousand years ago the lands that came to be called Macedonia were inhabited mainly by Illyrians and Phrygians. The Macedonians who appeared around 700 to 800 B.C. were for centuries a small group confined to a very small area of land. This area of land is a tiny portion of what is now Greek Macedonia. The language of these Macedonians was not Greek, nor were their gods; nor were they recognized by the Greeks. In time their leaders aspired to be as culturally refined and politically powerful as the Greeks, and used Greek teachers for their children. By about the fourth century B.C. the Macedonian nobles often used Greek for official purposes, but they and the common people spoke the Macedonian vernacular at home. A version of the Greek language had become an important trade language in the area and was widely used for such purposes. This variety of Greek was from the southern Greek states, and its use proves nothing at all about the native tongue of the Macedonians, which, if it had been Greek, would likely have been a different dialect. In any case, there are no inscriptions in any form of Greek from before about 400 B.C. found in material excavated in any part of Macedonia. Of course there were small Greek settlements in coastal areas of Macedonia, and until the Macedonians conquered the area, the Chalcidice peninsula was Greek.
2. It is certainly true that the Yugoslav leader Tito gave the Macedonians a degree of recognition as a unique nationality with their own language. No doubt there were various reasons for doing so. The Macedonian partisans were of great significance in the Yugoslav resistance to the Nazis, and the respect they earned at this time probably helped. It should be noted too that Tito adopted the same policy throughout Yugoslavia. All regions had a degree of autonomy, including the use of their own language. The success of Tito's policies in maintaining unity has become increasingly clear as we witness the bloody conflicts that erupted in Yugoslavia after his death. However, getting back to the point about the existence of Macedonia, even in the very long rule of the Turks Macedonia was recognized as a separate entity. It was this Greater Macedonia that was divided by the Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians after the Balkan wars of 1912-13. No historian, Greek or otherwise, uses any name but Macedonia to describe the territories that were partitioned. After the division, none of the controlling powers permitted the use of the name in the portions of Macedonia that they had taken. The kingdom of the Serbs, Croatians and Slovenians used the name "South Serbia7; Greece referred to the "Northern Provinces"; and Bulgaria used the name "Western Bulgaria." Of relevance to the Greek claim is the interesting point that the people in the Yugoslav part of Macedonia were permitted to use the name Macedonia in this century long before the people in the Greek part.
The Greek assertion that Yugoslav history books claim the ancient Macedonians were Slavic seems not to be true. I have examined secondary school texts written in Macedonian and interpreted for me by Macedonian speakers. I am confident that these books do not present such a view of history. However, that view does exist; it is promulgated by historians who have sympathies with the "Illyrian" movement. (The Albanian language is thought by some linguists to be related to ancient Illyrian, and Albanians believe that they are the rightful heirs of the ancient Macedonians.) Their argument states that the ethnic predecessors of the Slavs were the Paeones, who inhabited significant portions of Macedonian lands before and during the time of the great Macedonian kingdom. They say that the Paeones returned to their Macedonian homelands in the fifth and sixth centuries A.D. and that these peoples have been called Slavs.
Whether or not these claims are verifiable, it should be noted that both Macedonia and Greece have changed dramatically in ethnic mix over the past 2000 years. Neither shows any close match to the ethnic nature of the area at the time of Alexander the Great. Over the past 2300 years or so, the Balkan peninsula has been invaded by hordes of newcomers, including Celts (third to first century B.C.), Germanic tribes (third century A.D.), Slavs (fifth and sixth century A.D.), and Turks (fourteenth century A.D.). The original peoples may not have been wiped out, or pushed out of Macedonia or Greece by these new peoples. What happened often was that after a time the new peoples merged with the existing peoples. Throughout the Balkans, in both Macedonia and Greece, the ethnic mix is profoundly complex. However, there is no evidence to suggest that the people of Macedonia are any less ethnically "pure" and representative of the ancient peoples than the Greeks. If it is argued that the Slavic ethnic influence predominates in Macedonia, precisely the same case can be made for most of Greece. Quite simply, in Macedonia we have a majority of people of mixed ethnic stock who speak a Slavic language and have a predominantly Slavic culture, and in Greece we have a majority of people of mixed ethnic stock who speak Greek and have a Greek culture.
3. Has there ever been a "Slav Macedonia"? By most people's standards, it would be very hard to make a case that there has not. A great Slavic Empire in the tenth century A.D. incorporated most of the territory that historians recognize as ancient Macedonia as well as Bulgaria. This empire was ruled by Samuil, a Macedonian Slav, who governed from Ohrid, in the Southwest of modern-day Macedonia. Although the Byzantine Emperor Basil II ("the Macedonian") vanquished this empire, he and subsequent conquerors always acknowledged the Slavic language, culture and ethnicity of the people that they ruled. They generally recognized the territory of Macedonia, although administrative boundaries changed from time to time. The fact that the Macedonian Slavs were ruled by others is no grounds for speaking as though they did not exist, or for saying that their territories should not retain the old name of Macedonia. In the chapters that follow, historical, ethnographic, statistical and census material demonstrates clearly the existence of a Slavic Macedonia.
There is evidence that the Slavs of Macedonia called themselves "Macedonian" as early as the tenth century A.D. At the same time, the Byzantine emperors came to call the Macedonian Slavs "the Macedonians" since they made up the politically most significant population of the area. Written evidence and surviving crests from the sixteenth century proclaim Macedonia’s distinction from other Balkan territories. When other Balkan states began to assert themselves against the Turks between the seventeenth and the twentieth centuries, similar feelings of nationalism were seen in Macedonia, and recognized by the leading powers of Europe. During the twentieth century the Serbians, Bulgarians and Greeks tried to eliminate the influence of the Slavic Macedonian language, and to suppress the customs of Macedonian people in territories they conquered. The United Nations recognizes the Macedonian (Slavic) language.
4. While it is true to say that the name Macedonia has been applied to Aegean Macedonia for a long time, "more than 3000 years" is pushing things just a little. Twenty-three hundred to twenty-six hundred years would be closer to the mark. However, most of the territory of the present Republic of Macedonia has also had that name for the same period of time. Although the boundaries of that land called Macedonia have changed from time to time under the rule of the Romans (this includes the period of Byzantium), the Bulgarians, the Serbians, the Turks and the Greeks, all historical analyses, even those emanating from Greeks, show certain territories to have been part of Macedonia since the time of Alexander the Great. Included in these territories are Skopje, Stobi, and Herakleia. (later Monastir/Bitola). These towns come close to the northern and western boundaries of the present Republic of Macedonia. They have been Macedonian since before the great empire. The territory that is now northern Greece has also been an important part of Macedonia since ancient times, though most of this territory was not a part of the first Macedonian kingdom, but was gradually incorporated into that kingdom as Macedonian power grew.
Macedonia was split apart in 1912 when the Bulgarians, the Greeks and the Serbs united to push the Turks out of the Balkans. Succeeding in that, they split Macedonia among themselves. Aegean Macedonia, some 52 percent of Greater Macedonia, was taken by Greece by conquest, never by any act of self-determination. It could be argued that Greece created the very problem about which it now complains since Greece participated in the initial division of Macedonia earlier this century. Given this division of territories it is hardly surprising that some Macedonians hope for a restoration of older borders. Nationalist forces throughout the Balkans have very similar ambitions.
The Slavic-language Macedonian people who come from Aegean Macedonia, including those who left the country before and during the Second World War and the Greek civil war (many are now in the United States, Canada, and Australia), still call themselves Macedonian. Even Greek government publications admit that the different peoples of Macedonia, such as the Slavs, Greeks, and Vlachs, called themselves Macedonians in earlier times and during the last century. Only in the last few years have the Greeks publicly attempted to reclaim for themselves the name that they abandoned and actually tried to suppress for so many years.
The statement that the Greek region called Macedonia "has one of the most homogeneous populations in the world" (98.5 percent Greek) is very much without substance. For a start the number is probably a considerable exaggeration, according to United Nations and United States State Department estimates. But given that there is a high proportion of Greek speakers in this area, a more important question is how did northern Greece became so "ethnically pure"? There is no dispute that this happened through a process of exiling tens of thousand of Slav-speaking Macedonians, both Christian and Moslem, and resettling hundreds of thousands of Greek speakers from Asia Minor and Armenia. fly this process the Greeks accomplished a great change in the ethnic mix in Aegean Macedonia. Today, after the term was coined during the war in Bosnia, we would call this "ethnic cleansing." It is not a new phenomenon, and was not uncommon in Europe around and after the First World War. After this process in Aegean Macedonia, the Greeks made it illegal to speak the Slavic language and imprisoned and in other ways severely punished people who did so. Naturally enough, members of the minority Slavic population that remained after this social engineering were also forbidden to teach their children in their own language. The Greeks changed place names and forced people to use Greek names in place of their Slavic names. Given all of this extraordinary government intervention, it is hardly surprising to find a high proportion of Greek speakers in Aegean Macedonia. But clearly this does not tell us anything useful about historic rights to the name or the lands of Macedonia or the people who inhabited the area for fifteen hundred years. Brief reflection will show that the Greek speakers brought into northern Greece had no historic association with the land at all.
5. The idea that an independent Macedonia will somehow monopolize the name seems an overreaction to the situation. Many places in the world have the same names as other places, but human beings can deal with this. For instance, people can get used to the idea that a place in Greece and a place in the United States might have the same name and still be different places. This point also implies that since there are twice as many "real Macedonians" in Aegean Macedonia as there are in Vardar Macedonia, those with the numerical superiority should get the name. However, if we consistently appeal to the older historical justifications noted above, most of this Greek population would not count, since they are relative newcomers to Aegean Macedonia.
6. It is fine to say that Macedonia, meaning the history of ancient Macedonia, is an indispensable part of Greece's heritage. Given that the Greeks occupy a major part of ancient Macedonian territory, this seems fair enough. The fact that the ancient Macedonians and Greeks despised each other, and that the Macedonians conquered the Greeks, need not be relevant to this aspect of modern political life. However, it does seem quite paradoxical for Greeks to choose as a national symbol a recently discovered emblem used by the hated overlords of ancient times (the Macedonians). The implication that there is a coherent ethnic group existing today, living only in northern Greece, that we could recognize as "Macedonian"- people who have a strong line of descent from the ancient Macedonians - simply cannot be substantiated.
7. There is no dispute that the language of Vardar Macedonia is predominantly Slavic, though in modern times there are increasing demands to allow the official use (in schools for instance) of the languages of minority groups such as Albanians and Turks. If it can be demonstrated that the ancient Macedonians were neither Slavic speakers nor Greek speakers -and such a case is presented in this book - the Greek position does not gain any advantage by pointing to the current language of the occupants of Vardar Macedonia.
8. The Slavs set foot in the Balkans about 900 years after the time of Alexander the Great. They, and some other "new" peoples, spread widely throughout the Balkans, but particularly into those lands that we have called Greece and Yugoslavia. The Slavs eventually mixed with the remaining peoples, but in Vardar Macedonia the language and culture that lasted was Slavic Macedonian, and in the south, in Greece, the language and culture that survived was Greek. In both cases it was necessary to have a very strong government support for the stabilization and establishment of an official modern form of the language. In Greece this happened a little more than a hundred years earlier than it did in Macedonia. The Greek language was not imposed on Aegean Macedonia until the mid-1920s. Until that time Slavic Macedonian was the "lingua franca7 of the area.
9. The name Macedonia was not used until the second century B.C., and it was applied to the country by the Macedonian king, not by a Greek. The term "Macedon' and the expression "land of the Macedons" were used long before that time, though there is debate about the origins of the word "Macedon." Philologists are not certain of its derivation, though Greeks prefer to think that the word comes from Greek. In any case, neither the ancient Macedonians nor the ancient Greeks thought that the Macedonians were Greek; thus the name the Macedonians used for their land must surely belong to them alone. The weight of this issue does not seem to be substantial.
10. It is quite true that many Macedonian places and people were given Greek names. This was especially the case after the Macedonian rulers started to use a Greek dialect that came from the south (they were not using a dialect similar to that of their nearest Greek neighbors, but one borrowed from much farther away) and ostentatious features of Greek culture. However, we do not know the names that were given to many places and people because we have no written records. The contemporary records we have come from Greek writers, or others writing in the Greek language, for Greek-speaking readers. It would be surprising if they did not use Greek names.
11. Generally the Old Testament is not accepted as being very good history, at least as we understand history. As far as New Testament writings are concerned, we must be careful about what has really been said. Differences in interpretation have led to the establishment of different religious groups, so it can hardly be said that the New Testament writings are always subject to the same interpretation. It should be noted that several ancient writers acknowledged the close association of the Macedonians and the Greeks, once the Greeks had been conquered by the Macedonians. Often the Macedonian rulers wanted the Greeks to be working in concert with them, though the Greeks were less enthusiastic about this idea. As already noted, the Macedonian leaders, from about the fourth century B.C., moved increasingly to adopt the use of the Greek language for official affairs, and were attracted by facets of Greek culture. Greek culture was spread widely throughout the world by Macedonians rulers in their Macedonian Empire, and then by Romans in the Byzantine Empire. To be consistent one might just as well argue that since the Romans maintained and spread Greek culture they must have been Greek. Of course this is obviously wrong, but it points to the weakness of this argument when applied to the Macedonians.
12. It is quite true that Alexander took the Greek language and some aspects of Greek culture to Asia. This was a period of flowering for the Greek language, and for Greek trading influence in the world. The time of Alexander marks a period in Greek history called the Hellenic period for this very reason. However, Alexander did not take that mainstay of Greek culture, democracy, to his new Asian empire, and in time he even abandoned most of the things he had started with, turning to a new blend of Asian, Macedonian and Greek ways. It became more important to appease Asians than to appease Greeks.
The fact that Philip and Alexander used the Greek language for administration and were supposedly "Hellenistic" in orientation has more to do with political manipulation and administrative convenience than any appreciation for the Greeks. This observation is not disputed by historians. Thus the use of the Greek language does not tell us anything about the ethnic or cultural origins of the Macedonians. The English language has had a similar role in recent international history. The third largest English-speaking country in the world today (at least in population terms) is the Philippines, according to that country's own claims. Yet no one would seriously suggest that the people of the Philippines are English, or even American, by race or by culture.
The evidence discussed in this book indicates that Alexander's mother tongue was not Greek, his mother was probably not Greek and his father was not Greek. Eventually Alexander himself became an "internationalist" rather than a Hellenophile, even to the extent of arranging marriages between thousands of Persian women and his own troops in a strange effort to merge the peoples and cultural extremes of his empire.
13. There are no archaeological finds that confirm the racial origins of the Macedonians. In a later section I discuss the writings of R. A. Crossland, who contributed to the Cambridge volumes on ancient history. Crossland thoroughly deals with this question and dismisses as worthless the supposed archaeological evidence about the alleged Greek origins of the Macedonians.
14. To say that the home of the Greek gods was in Macedonia is to embellish the truth. However, the real issue here is not whether a people (the Greeks) would worship its national gods in a foreign country, but whether Greeks believed Macedonians to be foreigners. If the latter is true, and if Greeks worshiped gods from Macedonia, then by definition they worshiped gods from a foreign country. Thus the argument fails if it can be shown that Greek people of ancient times believed that the Macedonians were foreigners. There is no debate among historians about the fact that in historical times the Macedonians and the Greeks saw themselves as separate peoples. The Macadamias were always named separately from the Greeks, even when the two groups were in closest connection under the rule of Philip II, Alexander the Great, and later the Turks. Historians say that the two peoples were held together in ancient times only by force of arms, and as soon as the empire of Alexander collapsed, they split apart once again. So whatever linguistic analysis might be argued these days to suggest similarity of ethnic background for the ancient Greeks and Macedonians (and there is no such analysis that is widely accepted), those ancient peoples knew nothing of it. The Greeks explicitly classified the Macedonians as foreigners. That is what the word "barbaroi," frequently given to the Macedonians and other non-Greek groups, means. Since the ancient Greeks thought of the Macedonians as foreigners, if modern Greeks wish to argue that the home of Greek gods was Macedon, it is evident that the ancient Greeks must, have worshipped gods from the lands of foreigners.
15. As noted above, even modern Greek texts show that the areas of modern-day Skopje, Stobi, and Bitola were included in the boundaries of the Macedonian homelands. These cities are close to the northern and western borders of the modern-day state of Macedonia. Although some texts show slight variations in the position of the northern borders, historians agree that virtually the whole of the territory of the modern-day Republic of Macedonia was a part of ancient Macedonia.
16. Most of the census figures cited here are of questionable relevance. A crucial date is the 1912-13 Balkan wars which resulted in the partitioning of Macedonia. Since Greece took about 52 percent of the territory of Macedonia it is not helpful to talk about census figures taken after that date. It might be noted again that by the late 1920s the Greeks had completed a major social engineering program in Aegean Macedonia, having exiled tens of thousands of Slavic speaking Macedonians, and imported perhaps ten times as many nonMacedonian Greek speakers from Turkey and Armenia. Figures taken after that date really do not help in this debate.
Another interesting issue contained in this Greek comment is worth mentioning briefly here, and that is the labeling of Slavic-speaking Macedonians as Bulgarian. The major powers that were fighting over Macedonia in the Balkan wars were Turkey, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece. The occupying power, the Turks, identified their Slavic subject peoples in the Balkans in terms of their religious affiliation. The usual possibility was for them to be Moslem, Jewish, Greek Orthodox, or Bulgarian Orthodox (although there were some other numerically insignificant classifications such as Roman Catholic). The Greek Church had been successful in pleading with the Turkish authorities to have the Macedonian Orthodox Church banned in favor of the Greek Orthodox Church towards the end of the eighteenth century; thus Macedonians had no Slavic-speaking church to attend. However, after about 1870 the Bulgarian Orthodox Church was permitted in Bulgaria and began to attract Slav speakers in Macedonia. Orthodox Christian Macedonians were called Bulgarian if they had affiliated with the Slavic-speaking Bulgarian church, or Greek if they still attended a Greek Orthodox church. So, at the beginning of the twentieth century, the Turkish rulers of Macedonia used a classification of its Balkan peoples that spoke as if Macedonians did not exist. The competing powers, Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece, also wished to extend their territory, and it did not suit them to recognize a nationalistic group that might reduce their acquisition. The Serbians spoke of "South Serbians" when referring to Macedonians, and the Bulgarians simply spoke of "Bulgarians." This kind of classification suited the Greek political purpose also. Nevertheless, as you will see later in this book, European powers recognized the Macedonians, as did some newspaper accounts of the early part of the twentieth century. Even today the Greeks deny that they have any ethnic minorities, and their treatment of the Turkish and Macedonian speakers in Greece has brought international condemnation.
17. The politics of the use of the name Macedonia are rather more complex than the Greek writers suggest. I have no doubt that Macedonians throughout the world would like to see a reunification of Macedonia. However, the government of Macedonia seems to appreciate the political reality that it is beyond their power to achieve this. Some more radical groups in Macedonia still hope for such a development through armed struggle, but given the military might of Greece, this is undoubtedly a futile hope. The political group that takes this extreme nationalist position is a minority in the modern state of Macedonia. It is curious that the Greeks seem not to recognize that the politicians in power in Macedonia are moderate and that continued Greek agitation may actually strengthen the position of the radicals. One can only speculate about the intentions of the Greek government in this issue. As with any elected government there must be an acute sensitivity to the attitudes of the electorate. However, there may be a greater political game being played here, one that is suggested by some modern analysts and described in later chapters of this book. While only extremists in Macedonia speak about going to war, if we are to judge by the banners that have been waved in Salonika in mass demonstrations about the issue, Greeks in general seem to be prepared for war with the Macedonians. With luck, increased awareness of alternative analyses of history may serve to reduce the vigor of warlike thinking.
It is the intention of this book to clarify and present the conclusions of significant historians about the origins of the modern-day Macedonians. From time to time I will again compare those conclusions with the various points of the Greek position. For instance, it is appropriate to explain the complex ethnic mix that characterizes modern Greece. A major issue of international concern is the treatment of minority ethnic groups in Greece - Albanians, Turks, and Macedonians. Greece continues to deny the existence of all except a "Muslim minority," meaning Turkish speakers, and seems willing to acknowledge them only because they are specified in international treaties. There are some who argue that potential unrest from its Macedonian minority, or pressures for the return of exiled Macedonians to Greece (and resumption of confiscated lands), may be behind Greece's aggressive posture against Macedonia. The matter is well worth exploration.
By examining the particular dispute between Macedonia and Greece we can gain some understanding about other significant questions in the Balkans centered around Macedonia. Accordingly, this book examines the contemporary position of Macedonia. This has relevance to the Greek arguments, but introduces us also to broader questions about Macedonia’s stability and ability to survive as an independent nation. A consideration of the new nation's international experiences gives us a context for examining the aims of its immediate neighbors and the attitudes of the United Nations and the United States. The American involvement is of particular interest, since the United States was unwilling to send men to participate in the peacekeeping force in Bosnia, but shared in the ground-breaking move of sending a contingent of troops as part of the first ever United Nations "war-prevention" effort. This seems to have come about because of the American recognition that forces within and around Macedonia could provoke a European war much greater in scale than the present war in Bosnia. The issues that have provoked Greek reactions seem unlikely to go away in the near future. The Macedonians are quite unlikely to agree to abandon the name, though they may be prepared to accept the use of a longer name, such as "New Macedonia." However, at the present time Greece insists that no name involving "Macedonia" is acceptable. But this is only one dispute among many. Like the Greek arguments, what is visible on the surface may reveal only a part of the overall agenda. The strength of many old ambitions is there to be seen. There are larger stories being played out, and it is very likely that Greece is a part of many of them. That is what makes the present case so fascinating.





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Yetos
13-09-14, 02:24
BTW can you translate this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4A8U0I7W_Y συνέντευξη Γρηγόρης Μπιθικώτσης ΘΑΝΑΣΗΣ ΛΑΛΑΣ - Αφού είναι ωραία η ζωή, γιατί να τελειώνει; «Είναι νόμος, τελειώνει. Εγώ διαβάζω πολύ, πιστεύω ότι λίγοι άνθρωποι διαβάζουν όσο διαβάζω εγώ. Τώρα διαβάζω το ένθετο που έχουν τα "Νέα" για την ιστορία του αιώνα. Και λέει τι τράβηξε το κάθε κράτος, πόσες φορές έγιναν πόλεμοι, πόσοι πέρασαν απ' την Ελλάδα... Εγώ θα σου πω κάτι που δεν το ξέρεις ούτε εσύ ούτε κανείς. Πώς πέθανε ο Καραϊσκάκης; Και γιατί λέμε - θα το γράψεις έτσι όπως θα σ' το πω - γιατί λέμε "στ' αρχίδια μου"; Ο Καραϊσκάκης ήταν στρατηγός στον Περαία και ο Κουντουριώτης ήταν ναύαρχος. Τους άλλαξε λοιπόν ο Καποδίστριας μ' ένα στρατηγό που δε θυμάμαι τώρα τ' όνομά του και στη θέση του Κουντουριώτη έβαλε έναν άλλο ναύαρχο. Ο της ξηράς στρατηγός τού είπε του Καραϊσκάκη ότι μες στον Αγιο Σπυρίδωνα στον Περαία είναι τρακόσιοι Aρβανίτες μουσουλμάνοι και θα πας εκεί έτσι κι αλλιώς κι αλλιώτικα. Ο Καραϊσκάκης τότε του είπε ότι "αυτό που μου λες το γράφω στ' αρχίδια μου". Ο άλλος τσαντίστηκε επειδή τσαντίστηκε ο Καραϊσκάκης. Σου λέει, στρατηγός είμαι κι εγώ, θα μου πεις πώς να πάω στον Αγιο Σπυρίδωνα στους Αρβανίτες που έχουν κλειστεί εκεί μέσα; Αφού Αρβανίτης ήταν κι ο Καραϊσκάκης. Οπότε ο στρατηγός ο άλλος έβαλε έναν Τούρκο και του 'ριξε μια σφαίρα στο αφτί και πέθανε ο Καραϊσκάκης. Το ξέρεις αυτό;».

PATHETIC PSYCHOSIS AND FUNNY 'SCIENTIC METHODS' BY AN EDUCATED MAN

YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE THE NONSENSE OF A FAT MAN, AFTER 180 YEARS AND NOT THE 5 fellows and his biographer THAT WROTE HIS MEMORIES?
BESIDES LOOK WHAT YOUR FRIEND SAY? ANTOHER GENERAL (BUT HE DOES NOT SAY WHO) ORDER THE GENERAL TO GO AND SAVE 300 TURK ALBANS !!!!! (Save the enemy?)
AND PAYED A TURK TO SHOT HIM IN THE EAR? ARE WE NUTS OR ARE WE DUMB? IS THAT YOU SCIENTIF METHODS?

LETS LOOK NOW THE HISTORICAL FACTS AS WRITTEN BY HIS BIOGRAPHER AND HIS FELLOWS.
PRIMARY KNOLEDGE TO YOU KARAISKAKIS WAS NOT ARBANITIS BUT KARA-SKJE (since you are an Albanian you know) HE WAS RAISED BY THE SARAKATSAN KATSANTONIS BEFORE HE GO AS MERCENAIRIE TO ALI PASHA

NOW BACK TO YOUR STUPIDITY

FIRST OF ALL THE ARMY FOLLOWED HIM AND NOT KOCHRAN, THAT IS WHY NOBODY WAS SHOOTING

SECOND HE WAS SHOT IN THE FRONT IN THE BELLY IN THE LIVER.

THIRD HE WAS SHOT IN TO THE CRETAN DEFENCES, WHO HAD BATTLE FACE THE TURK ALBANS OF AGIOS SPYRIDON,

FORTH HE WAS SHOT JUST ONE BEFORE THE FINAL ATTACK FIFTH HE WAS REPLACED NOT BY ANY GREEK GENERAL BUT WITH BRITISH ADMIRALS LORD TOMAS KOCHRAN AND RICHARD CHURCH
THEY TOOK THE COMMANDS FROM THE HANDS OF MAKRIGIANNI AND KOLOKOTRONI, USING THEIR POWER AND THREATING THAT WILL NOT USE THEIR CANNONS IF THEY DO NOT GIVE ORDERS. AND LED GREEK TO A PAINFULL LOSΤ

Μετά το θάνατο του Καραϊσκάκη ανέλαβαν ο Κόχραν με τον Τσώρτς την διοίκηση της διεξαγωγής της μάχης στη πεδιάδα του Φαλήρου όπου και ακολούθησε η ολοκληρωτική καταστροφή του Ανάλατου, στη σημερινή περιοχή Φλοίσβου (Φαλήρου) όπου είχαν οι Τούρκοι παρασύρει τους Έλληνες μέχρι που τους περικύκλωσαν. Ακολούθησε η διάλυση του ελληνικού στρατοπέδου της Ακρόπολης και η ανακατάληψή της και η διάλυση και του στρατοπέδου ΤΡΚΟΥΠΗΣ wrote «Τοιαύτα ήσαν τα αποτελέσματα της παραφοράς του Κοχράνου, του κακή μοίρα της Ελλάδος κατά την Αττικήν επιφανέντος» since you post in Greek you can read it, now for the end,
ONLY HIS BIOGRAPHER AINIAN say THAT HATZIPETROU WAS TOLD BY HIM THAT HE KNEW WHO SHOT HIM.
ALL THE REST SAY THE ENEMY Now for your informations, MOST WRITERS SAY THAT IT WAS A WORK OF TOMAS KOHRAN, CAUSE THE ARMY FOLLOWED KARAISKAKIS AND NOT HIM WHO WANTED TO RETURN TO BRITAIN AS GLORIUS WINNER. AND WHILE CHURCH SHOW CONSIUS AND WAS SAVING THE REMNANTS OF THE GREEK ARMY, LORD KOHRAN FLED AWAY AND NEVER COME BACK.

THAT FOR THE HISTORICAL FACTS now lets see about you, I wonder why you post that and for which reason
reading one by one your posts we see what?
psychosis cause you see everywhere Albanians,
empathy, cause you say that Communism is a Creature of Slavic Orthodoxy
Stupiditycause you post whatever in inapropriate threads lies and many, since you do not chech what you post but you use as excuse another guy said that not me,

After all the above I leave you to the members of the forum to judge upon your personality and mental health

PLZ CAN SOMEONE UNDERSTAND WHAT HE IS TRYING TO SAY?
EVEN KING LEONIDAS HAD HIS EPHIALTIS,
WHY KARAISKAKIS DID MUST NOT DESERVE AN EPHIALTIS?
IF he had one
end of discuss for today, better check next time your sources and not hide behind rumors, neither post lies or empathy or your psychosis.

Yetos
13-09-14, 02:30
What is wrong with this Englishman? He is saying the same thing I am saying: "Macedonia is not Greek"


WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU YOU THE SKOPJE PROPAGANDA NOW?
YOU ARE PROVING US THE ANCIENT MAKEDONIANS WERE SLAVS?

FOR YOUR INFORMATION,

READ THE PELLA KATADESMOS, THE PHIALE

AND THE WORDS THAT ALEXANDER SAID TO HIS ARMY TO HIS MEN TO THE WORLD,

'ΠΛΗΣΤΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ ΠΛΗΝ ΛΑΚΕΔΑΙΜΟΝΙΟΙΣ'


in English ALL THE GREEKS,

as for the rest ask what Karaiskakis told to Turk-Albans of Muhtar Bey to learn what to do with them

King Bardhyl
13-09-14, 02:49
"αυτό που μου λες το γράφω στ' αρχίδια μου"
"All that you say i will write to my balls".


Gjergj Karaskaqi.

Yetos
13-09-14, 04:35
"αυτό που μου λες το γράφω στ' αρχίδια μου"
"All that you say i will write to my balls".


Gjergj Karaskaqi.

Wrong

ρωτησα τον πουτσο μου και μου ειπε οτι δεν αξιζεις ουτε να σε .... με προλαβε ο Γεωργιος Καραισκακης και ο Κολοκοτρωνης
Ι ask my '...' and he answer me that you don't worth to ... you, cause ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΣ ΚΑΡΑΙΣΚΑΚΗΣ and ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ ΚΟΛΟΚΟΤΡΟΝΙΣ already did that to all you WEST TURK or ALBANS :laughing:

Nikas
13-09-14, 05:57
Great posts Yetos, amazing what is being unearthed in northern Greece!

I unfortunately do not have enough posts yet to post a link, but as of today it appears that they may be on the verge of possibly being able to identify the occupant of the tomb as they enter the third chamber, assuming of course it has not been thoroughly looted or extensively damaged.

The material culture that has been unearthed in Macedonia the last few decades since the Vergina finds has been incredible, from Vergina itself with it's un-plundered Philip II treasure, to the finds at Archontiko, Pella, Amphipolis and other sites, numbering literally in the thousands.

Certainly this is not archaeology in it's infancy. Not to beleaguer the point, but it goes without saying that the weight of all the material culture along with the topographical, numismatic, epigraphical, and literal evidence of Macedonia falls overwhelmingly and conclusively in the Greek orbit, and attempts to paint it otherwise are truly stretched.

I can only imagine how tiresome this debate must be to the impartial observer, as tiresome as it to some of us who aside from the impact of modern politics, strive for the maintenance of historical accuracy and a certain respect for the integrity of objective (or as much as can be allowed in any case) fact. The most frustrating thing that may not seem apparent to the casual observer, is that there is an enormous balance fallacy always at play here. On the one side you have an immense corpus of literary, material and academic opinion in support of the Hellenic nature of the ancient Macedonians, on the other, well, I am sure you have seen and are able to judge for yourselves. It is as if the proponents for the flat-earth theory were given an equal balance of probability as the round-earthers. It often surprises me, not in this forum necessarily but on the net in general, how as Greeks we are told that we are "overreacting", yet when identity theft is committed on an individual it is a serious crime with serious consequences for both victim and perpetrator if caught, yet at a international level it is seemingly written off as mere hysteria and paranoia. If any of you have ever had the misfortune of say having your credit card stolen and used illegally, you might be somewhat sympathetic to the concept of what I am referring too.

So, with my somewhat brief aside (rant?) out of the way, I anxiously await further discoveries from this amazing find and hope they are able to identify the occupant of this extraordinary monument, and in closing remind everyone to not be surprised when they are perhaps revealed to be right out of the pages of Ancient Macedonian and the rest of Greek history.

After all, as my take on Occam's Razor goes, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then....

King Bardhyl
13-09-14, 10:21
Your post Yetos shows your precarious state of mental effort. In all cases I have used references from relevant sources


, like First King of Greece, Otto, different Greek President and Prime ministers, a long list of autors, even the most nationalist and nazist greek party in an article in its newspaper accept that:

*The sturdy warriors who died in battlefields of Peleponnesus, Rumelia and the islands, Epirus and several other regions did their best to help their southern brethren, who were revolted against Ottomans.

*Therefore, Albanians are rightfully deemed as Dorians of the new Hellenism (Αρβανίτες - Οι δωριείς του νεώτερου ελληνισμού.

* "Kokalis, Andrucos, Kacionis, Grindalis, Plaputas, Kacandonis, Mjaulis, Kolokotronis, Bubulina, Karajskaqis, Kunduriotis and Botsaris were all Albanians, who distinguished themselves on their anti-Ottoman wars"

"Being aware of the value of war and the actions of our heroes, we express a historical justice by honoring their sacrifices regardless their origin. To get a clear idea of Greece, one must not fail to remember the wars of Pyrrhus, Queen Teuta, Demetrius of Pharos, Genthios against Roman Empire. Throughout Byzantine period, Illyrian commanders like Velissarios and Vranas, but even the emperors like Constandine the Great (a Dardanian from Naissus), Anastasios, Julian and Leon Zguros give the proper answer to history. The sturdy warriors who died in battlefields of Peleponnesus, Rumelia and the islands, Epirus and several other regions did their best to help their southern brethren, who were revolted against Ottomans. Therefore, Albanians are rightfully deemed as Dorians of the new Hellenism. Beyond the fanatical attempts to conceal one of the brightest elements of our history, appears the sacrifice of Arvanites during the national revolution of 1821. The sacrifice of Ghika family in Walachia and Moldavia, the courage of Buas, that of Shkurta family, Buzara, Bardhans, Lalas and Souliotes up to the rise of uprising in Messenia on mars of 1821 from Dredhes, numerous warriors who defended the islands of Hydra and Spetzai, outstanding figures like Kokalis, Andrucos, Kacionis, Grindalis, Plaputas, Kacandonis, Mjaulis, Kolokotronis, Bubulina, Karajskaqis, Kunduriotis and Botsaris. All of them distinguished themselves in the wars against Ottomans and they were descendants of Alexander the Great of Balkans, Scanderbeg along with the misunderstood personality of Ali Pasha".





I could go on with other references, endless. Who is interested can find other references in this thread and this:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26965-Albanians-%28OFFTOPIC-Macedonians%29?p=437412#post437412
Only one person in the world don`t accept the truth and also he is most nationalist and patriot even that Golden Dawn.

The world is fun because existe people like Yetos,otherwise it would be boring. Thank you Yetos, for making us laugh.

Now i will continue with my favorite discussion , the myth of of the link betwen "greeks" and ancient macedonian, always using greek an international sources.
Good reading

King Bardhyl
13-09-14, 10:45
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/Yannis.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/Yannis1.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/Yannis26.jpg
Mr. Hamilakis is an greek scholar, right?

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/AlexisPolitis.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/AlexisPolitis1.jpg
page 8
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/AlexisPolitis8.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/AlexisPolitis9.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/AlexisPolitis11.jpg

This really explains what happened in the past.The sad fact the greeks don't know or understand their own history.If they did they would be shocked.
This story of multiple hellenisms, Yetos are multiple hellenisms similar to multiple orgasms and dont tell me the greeks invented that too.

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/EffiGazi.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/EffiGazi108.jpg

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/Kamposvol15c.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/Kamposvol15.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/Kamposvol15a.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/Kamposvol15b.jpg

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/ProtocolofPoros.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/ProtocolofPoros25.jpg
You see who is turkish ADN?
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/ProtocolofPoros25a.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/ProtocolofPoros26.jpg
So how you steal other lands

King Bardhyl
13-09-14, 11:21
In your post you clearly expressed in uneducated maner about this gentelman:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cochrane,_10th_Earl_of_Dundonald
This is a typical behavior of modern Greeks. Read this:
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/That%20Greece%20Might%20Be%20Free/ThatGreecemightstillbefree.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/That%20Greece%20Might%20Be%20Free/stclair326.jpg Explains to an Albanian thief the history

Yetos
13-09-14, 12:51
I pyetur kar e mia, dhe më tha nuk ia vlen,
ΚΑΡΑΙΣΚΑΚΗΣ bëri në vitet e mëparshme



EXCEPT PSYCHOSIS AND EMPATHY WHAT ELSE?


Karaiskakis said about Tomas Kohran
«Βλέπω πώς κακά θά τά πᾶμε μέ τούτους τούς Φράγκους, φοβᾶμαι πώς θά μᾶς φᾶνε μέ τήν ἀβασταγιά τους»
I see bad things with these frangs (west Europe foreigners), I am afraid they will 'eat us' with their haste.
Ainian Biography of Karaiskakis,


Good for you is to read the Richard Church memories,
British Museum

κυριακος Simopoylos found and Publish the Tomas Kohran history in Greece in His book 'ΠΩΣ ΟΙ ΞΕΝΟΙ ΕΙΔΑΝ ΕΙΔΑΝ ΤΗΝ ΕΛΛΑΔΑ το 1821'
in His book he published why Tomas Kochran came to Greece
Tomas Kochran was in British prison for economical scandals, after the Napoleonian wars
Tomas Kohran also bought shares of the British loan to the Greek Struggle, Tomas Kochran was the ONLY Philellin who was payed by the british Bankers who gave the Loan, which strangely never came to Greece from Latin America
As the Boats we order also strangely came after the Battle of Navarino!!!!!
the shares drop that time dramatically due to Karaiskakis stance and the Greeks who wanted Both Sterea and Peloponese while Bankers economical interest wanted only Peloponese.
you see money can create ΕΦΙΑΛΤΕΣ,
Tomas Kochran face the Prison for second time due to prize of shares,
the Bankers who payed him wanted fast solution,
the only solution way to make Greeks lost and dissapoint so to stay in Peloponese
search the Richard Church memories,
Kochran lead 1630 Greek infantry against the Turkish Artllery and the 8000 infantry 3000 cavalry of Turks Resit Mehmet Pasha and Aslan Bey in open field !!!!!
with stupid napoleonian tacticts
Disaster for Greeks, raise of the shares in britain, safety for bankers,
AFTER THAT DAY KOCHRAN NEVER SEEN IN GREECE.


Told you Leonidas had an Ephialtes.
kariaskakis why not?

NOW YOU CAN SING how much you like Turk


RICHARD CHURCH MEMORIES,
AINANS BIOGRAPHY OF KARAISKAKIS
AND MANY OTHER OTHERS EXPLAIN US WELL WHAT HAPPENED
WITH FACTS AND DOCUMENTS.

NOW BACK TO WEST TURKEY SON OF MUSTAfI PASHA SKONDER
Sarakatsan KARAISKAKIS **** him and all of you well :cool-v:

King Bardhyl
13-09-14, 13:29
Karin e mbafsh ne bythe. Typical greek .Goethe has said:"The most bad man is who dont show thankful".
The british liberate your country always, gave you money as you want and this is your opinion.

Difference betwen Albnian and Turks:

"The historian in search of ironies and anomalies could find no stranger contrast than this of Turks and Albanians—the one, an Asiatic race of Mongol blood and the most meagre intellectual endowment, yet possessed, thanks to Arabian influence, of a fairly humane and elaborate code of laws; the other, a European people of Aryan stock, boasting in part a certain nominal Christianity, gifted, quick, and intelligent, and in contact through the ages with Greek and Italian civilisations, yet content in the twentieth century with a set of institutions which have remained unaltered since the first days of the Aryan migration".

"They are Nietzsche's over-men, these primitive Albanians — something between kings and tigers".

[Extract from: H. N. Brailsford, Macedonia: its Races and their Future (London: Methuen & Co. 1906, p. 262-280.]


And your race
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/ProtocolofPoros.jpg

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Hellenism/ProtocolofPoros25.jpg



Enough with bored, PROSFIG. Go in Asia Minore with your turkish brothers.

Yetos
13-09-14, 14:10
YO WEST TURK MAHMUTI

WE PAY OUR LIBERATION LOAN UNTIl 1984-7
FROM 1821 to 1987 165 years we pay our Liberation
WHAT ABOUT YOU?
YOU SERVED THE TURKS UNTIL WW1
YOU DID NOT PAY HARASH (TURKISH TAXATION)
AND YOU ALL SERVED OTTOMAN's ARMY.

SO CHANGE YOUR COUNTRY TO WEST TURKEY IT IS THE SAME,

WHO IS UNGRATEFULL?
US OR YOU?

WE PAY THE LOAN, no matter we never receive the money for165 years, and the ships came after the battle of navarino
YOU WERE PAYED BY TURKS, YOU WERE EXCEPTED FROM TAXATION FOR 500 YEARS, and you name your country Albania instead of WEST Turkey?

WHO IS THE UNGRATEFULL?
US OR YOU?

now youn bend over again,as you did 500 years to Turks

Now you go back to hell where you belong,

I LIVE IN FATHERS LAND, MAKEDONIA, THE ONLY BACK FOR ME IS MY VILLAGE AT MAKEDONIAN MOUNTAINS

where do you live?
IN THE LANDS OF WEST TURKS,

IF WE DID NOT REVOLT, TODAY YOU WOULD SPEAK TURKISH, SERVE TURKISH ARMY, AND YOU WOULD BE A TURK NATIONALIST
and you would be a proud Turk that came from Altai

YOU CAN THANK US, FOR OPENING YOUR EYES AND YOU STILL SPEAK YOUR CREOLE LANGUAGE

bye bye Turk.

albanopolis
13-09-14, 14:37
YO WEST TURK MAHMUTI

WE PAY OUR LIBERATION LOAN UNTIl 1984-7
FROM 1821 to 1987 165 years we pay our Liberation
WHAT ABOUT YOU?
YOU SERVED THE TURKS UNTIL WW1
YOU DID NOT PAY HARASH (TURKISH TAXATION)
AND YOU ALL SERVED OTTOMAN's ARMY.

SO CHANGE YOUR COUNTRY TO WEST TURKEY IT IS THE SAME,

WHO IS UNGRATEFULL?
US OR YOU?

WE PAY THE LOAN, no matter we never receive the money for165 years, and the ships came after the battle of navarino
YOU WERE PAYED BY TURKS, YOU WERE EXCEPTED FROM TAXATION FOR 500 YEARS, and you name your country Albania instead of WEST Turkey?

WHO IS THE UNGRATEFULL?
US OR YOU?

now youn bend over again,as you did 500 years to Turks

Now you go back to hell where you belong,

I LIVE IN FATHERS LAND, MAKEDONIA, THE ONLY BACK FOR ME IS MY VILLAGE AT MAKEDONIAN MOUNTAINS

where do you live?
IN THE LANDS OF WEST TURKS,

IF WE DID NOT REVOLT, TODAY YOU WOULD SPEAK TURKISH, SERVE TURKISH ARMY, AND YOU WOULD BE A TURK NATIONALIST
and you would be a proud Turk that came from Altai

YOU CAN THANK US, FOR OPENING YOUR EYES AND YOU STILL SPEAK YOUR CREOLE LANGUAGE

bye bye Turk.

Don't look down on your Turkish cousins. Half of them are muslimanized Greeks. So there is no real difference between you and them. You can fool yourself by feeling more valuable than they are, but you are simply kidding yourself. They are a lot more important in the region than Greeks are. They are not living on handouts the way you are. They might not live as good as you do but they live with their means not others. Greek population in 1821 was 53% muslimanised. The only Christians there were Arvanites who carried the weight of revolution. It was the the decree of King otto who forced muslim Greeks to christianize. So whatever you think of yourself we

King Bardhyl
13-09-14, 14:43
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Prosfig

Prosfig
1. A Christianized Turk who claims to be a fabricated "greek."


2. Someone who is unable to accept that their grandparents were ethnic Turks


3. Someone in their 50's who walks around with a plastic Spartan helmet and an aluminum sword yelling "300!"


Their grandparents were part of a population exchange between grease and Turkey where 1.3 million Turks of the "greek" religion were sent to grease and 500 000 "greeks" of the Muslim religion were sent to Turkey.


other forms: Prosfyg, Prosfygi, Prosfig, Prosfigi, Prosfiga, Prosfyga
You were born a Prosfig and you will die a Prosfig.

Yetos
13-09-14, 14:50
Don't look down on your Turkish cousins. Half of them are muslimanized Greeks. So there is no real difference between you and them. You can fool yourself by feeling more valuable than they are, but you are simply kidding yourself. They are a lot more important in the region than Greeks are. They are not living on handouts the way you are. They might not live as good as you do but they live with their means not others. Greek population in 1821 was 53% muslimanised. The only Christians there were Arvanites who carried the weight of revolution. It was the the decree of King otto who forced muslim Greeks to christianize. So whatever you think of yourself we

Yo

LOOK WHAT YOUR FRIEND SAY


Do you have listen, example Karamanlidhes. Just christian turks. This is the criteria to be greek.

YOUR STUPIDITY IS SUCH
THAT ONE DENIES THE OTHER

THANK YOU,
YOU JUST GAVE AN ANSWER TO YOUR FRIEND TURK,

BEND OVER AGAIN, TURKS WILL PAY YOU HASEM TO SERVE THEM.

Yetos
13-09-14, 14:55
AND I CALL THE FORUM MEMBERS TO READ AND JUDGE UPON YOUR LIES AGAIN


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Prosfig

Prosfig1. A Christianized Turk who claims to be a fabricated "greek."


2. Someone who is unable to accept that their grandparents were ethnic Turks




THE ANSWER COME FROM YOUR FRIEND


Don't look down on your Turkish cousins. Half of them are muslimanized Greeks.

YOUR STUPIDITY IS SUCH,
THAT YOU DENY EACH OTHER

Now who tells the truth,

SIMPLY NONE OF YOU,


BYE BYE TURKS,

eat some Pork, will not harm you,
we do and we live 80-100 years

try a souvlaki

Makedonia is was and will be Makedonia
back to hell turkish dogs

I will not give details who and where I am from,
Simply my village and my wide term family gave men to captain Diamantis in the liberation of Thessaly and Eyboia and Sporades
gave men to Makedonian struggle with Ematheia corps,
and also gave men to the WW2,
see you Turk,

Personal data are given in public pages,
we keep them secret from the enemy.

BYe BYE TURK

King Bardhyl
13-09-14, 15:26
Make sense,just read this and all clear:
http://s754.photobucket.com/user/TM2_album/media/Hellenism/ProtocolofPoros25.jpg.html
You are so mixed turks and greeks that no genetist in the world can explain nothing.
Also it is in your constitution , evrybody can be greek the only condition you have to accept orthodoxy religion.
Not an nation but an polo club.

albanopolis
13-09-14, 16:37
Yo

LOOK WHAT YOUR FRIEND SAY



YOUR STUPIDITY IS SUCH
THAT ONE DENIES THE OTHER

THANK YOU,
YOU JUST GAVE AN ANSWER TO YOUR FRIEND TURK,

BEND OVER AGAIN, TURKS WILL PAY YOU HASEM TO SERVE THEM.

http://www.newsbomb.gr/media/k2/items/cache/e59d987ec441ef65295a4402d529f4fb_XL.jpgThis guys name is karajaferis. You telling me jafer is a kristian name? KaraMuhamedis is a christian name?

albanopolis
13-09-14, 16:43
[QUOTE=Yetos;438845]Yo

LOOK WHAT YOUR FRIEND SAY

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Constantine_Karamanlis.jpg/260px-Constantine_Karamanlis.jpg

This guys name is karamanlis. Kahreman Ali you telling me that he is not Turk? You are kidding yourself boy.

albanopolis
13-09-14, 16:47
crazy greeks...
Greek names of Turkish origin

Terzis (Terzi=tailor)
Tsiakiris(Blue-eyed)
Kanlis(Kanli means in Turkish bloody and metaphorical murderer,according to some old members of this family they originate from Halkidiki.An ancestor of them killed a Turk and he fled to our village)
Tsevremetzis(tsevreme=roast)
Tsiaousis(sergeant)
Pechlivanis(wrestler)
Tsiplakis(tsiplak=nude,metaphorical poor)
Daoultzis(drumer)
Giouzelis(handsome)
Garipis(diligent)

LeBrok
13-09-14, 18:07
To refer to Turkey, being Turk or Muslim as something lesser and derogatory is simply unacceptable. If level of civility stays this low I will lock this thread. Remember, you have always a choice of not talking to a person you don't agree with.

albanopolis
13-09-14, 18:43
To refer to Turkey, being Turk or Muslim as something lesser and derogatory is simply unacceptable. If level of civility stays this low I will lock this thread. Remember, you have always a choice of not talking to a person you don't agree with.

I agree with your observation. Balkan Christian countries tend to look down on Turkey because of history.
But in reality many Turks are of Albanian,Greek, or Slav ancestry,
Most of Turks who do not share this ancestry are also European stock.
Even Albanians are taught to hate them because of history not necessarily race, even though some of us share religion with them.
Reality is that Turks have risen again and doing well.
Only in USA Turkey sends 15 000 students in bachelors and Graduate studies.
Imagine how many they send in Western Europe.
They have completely have westernized the school system and many Turkish schools rank high in Europe.

BARAT
13-09-14, 19:51
Ftoje gjithe shqiptaret e keti forumi te bashkohen ne forumin shqiptar Forum-Al.com

Yetos
14-09-14, 00:46
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Constantine_Karamanlis.jpg/260px-Constantine_Karamanlis.jpg

This guys name is karamanlis. Kahreman Ali you telling me that he is not Turk? You are kidding yourself boy.



YES OFFCOURSE AS THIS GUY ALSO
BRUCE LEE. BURSA ALI

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608024896741968550&pid=15.1&H=97&W=160

Thank you, I will laugh for days,

:laughing: :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

my belly aches from laugh

you 2 post nice jokes. why you don't try make carrier in comedies on cinema or TV

Yetos
14-09-14, 01:09
........................

albanopolis
14-09-14, 01:50
........................

A brief search in the phone directory of Athens revealed the following:

- There are about 43,000 entries of Greeks with last names beginning with the Turkish prefix "kara".

- There are about 20,000 entries of Greeks with last names beginning with the Muslim prefix "hadji" . Of course these Greeks are fervent Christians!

- There is an unknown (but vast) number of entries of Greeks with last names ending with the Turkish suffix "oglou", which is the ending of a great percentage of the Turkish last names.

The population of Athens is around 4 million people, about half of the total population of Greece. That is one in 40 Greeks has a Turkish last name!

Ike
14-09-14, 02:36
There is about 2 millions of Albanians written in Latin letters, but don't see how does that make 'em Latin...

King Bardhyl
14-09-14, 08:28
A brief search in the phone directory of Athens revealed the following:

- There are about 43,000 entries of Greeks with last names beginning with the Turkish prefix "kara".

- There are about 20,000 entries of Greeks with last names beginning with the Muslim prefix "hadji" . Of course these Greeks are fervent Christians!

- There is an unknown (but vast) number of entries of Greeks with last names ending with the Turkish suffix "oglou", which is the ending of a great percentage of the Turkish last names.

The population of Athens is around 4 million people, about half of the total population of Greece. That is one in 40 Greeks has a Turkish last name!

I remember an good goalkeeper ,he played with Olimpiakos of Pireus. His name was Tukuroglou, best goalkeeper in Greece. The suffix oglou is like in North Europe, son .
So this greek goalkeeper was the son of Tukur.

King Bardhyl
14-09-14, 08:39
http://www.newsbomb.gr/media/k2/items/cache/e59d987ec441ef65295a4402d529f4fb_XL.jpgThis guys name is karajaferis. You telling me jafer is a kristian name? KaraMuhamedis is a christian name?

The most important from Kartzaferis tribe is this person :http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Karatzaferis
The curios fact is that this gentelman with an turkish surname, is the creator and leader of extreme orthodox right party named Popular Orthodox Rally. Difficult for me to understand this. An extremist of right and orthodoxy with an turkish surname.

Nikas
14-09-14, 08:52
The nonsense one can post just because they have an internet connection. Albanians, of all people, calling others "Turks". The kettle truly calls the pot black. They dost protest too much, perhaps some underlying recognition of who did most of the collaborating with the Ottomans, and it must be somewhat challenging to square their inflated national pride with the undisputed fact that of all their neighbours, only they and the Bosnians did not seem to have the mettle to resist converting en-masse to their conquerors. Not that it is the religion itself that I have any issue with or make a value-judgement on, I simply point out that for such a long, proud, and entrenched culture and people as our Albanian friends they most surely had more resolve than their southern half-breed, degenerate, rootless neighbours who being mostly Turks in any case, of course could not but assimilate with their overlords.

But wait, that did not happen now did it.

It would be time-consuming, tedious and frankly bring it to the level of the most base nationalist spamming to sit here and find and post as many references available on the net on how their very language and historical references do not even put them in the lands they currently occupy until post-1,000 AD, the evidence for lack of Illyrian continuity, and all the other goodies one can find out there. I no more have the desire to do so, or see a more rewarding outcome, then to have a conversation on the Scottish referendum with my neighbours barking dog, but some of the nonsense being said deserves the proverbial slap to the side of the reality head, and the so called "Greeks are Turks" gibberish is a good case in point to highlight the lack of basic critical reasoning.

So the simple and straight-forward way to cut through to the heart of the matter for those who seem to equate the very well attested and documented thousands-year old Greek communities, dating in some cases to over 200 years before Alexander the Great, whose era we started discussing in this thread, of Asia Minor with their descendants, and later forced emigrants, with somehow being Christian "Turks" is:

Since these Greeks are somehow Christian Turks that were deported to Greece (the prosfygi) show us when, where, and how these Turks converted to Christianity and in such vast numbers?

My historical knowledge must be quite poor, for everything I have read and understood to-date on the Turks, from the Seljuks to the Ottomans, pretty much states that by the time they arrived in Asia Minor they were already Muslim, and after conquering these lands subjected the Christians to basically second-class citizenship. Why did such numbers then decide to convert from the ruling caste to the religion of the oppressed? What is for the greater economic benefits? The upward social mobility? The true word of Jesus Christ? Where is that great baptism in the sources? If our Albanian friends have some problems locating this, perhaps some Turkish contributors can enlighten us?

Why, in the Balkans the Albanians and Bosnians converted to Islam for the opposite reason mostly, yet these Turks somehow felt the need to go from the ruling to the ruled, the privileged to the un-privileged, the elite to the underfoot, and not just in isolated pockets but such vast numbers! After all 20%, or is it 80%, of all Athens apparently has Turkish surnames we are told!

I eagerly await this amazing rewrite of late Byzantine, Ottoman, and early twentieth-century history, and the opportunity to have all my misconceptions and Greek fuelled propaganda all cleared up.

Yetos
14-09-14, 09:10
A brief search in the phone directory of Athens revealed the following:

- There are about 43,000 entries of Greeks with last names beginning with the Turkish prefix "kara".

- There are about 20,000 entries of Greeks with last names beginning with the Muslim prefix "hadji" . Of course these Greeks are fervent Christians!

- There is an unknown (but vast) number of entries of Greeks with last names ending with the Turkish suffix "oglou", which is the ending of a great percentage of the Turkish last names.

The population of Athens is around 4 million people, about half of the total population of Greece. That is one in 40 Greeks has a Turkish last name!



WOW

and how do you know? you count them one one 4 000 000 names to find that? :petrified: :petrified:

SO ALBANIANS HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO DO BUT TAKE THE TELEPHONE"S COMPANY CATALOGUE AND COUNT THE NAMES? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

BRILLIANT, YOU WILL GO AHEAD IN FUTURE, ANDANCED SCIENCE counting the names



now lets see what yuou say to us


Don't look down on your Turkish cousins. Half of them are muslimanized Greeks. So there is no real difference between you and them.

First you Turks are Muslimized Greeks.
Then you say Greeks are Christian Turks. ??????????????????

Only you and the Albanian friend can understand how that happened,


Greek population in 1821 was 53% muslimanised. The only Christians there were Arvanites who carried the weight of revolution. It was the the decree of King otto who forced muslim Greeks to christianize. So whatever you think of yourself we

PLZ SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT HIS WRITTING?
FIRST HE SAY THE TURKS ARE MUSLIMIZED GREEKS
AND THEN HE SAY THAT OTTO FORCED THE MUSLIM GREEKS (TURKS) TO CHRISTIANIZED?
and who christianized the Turks (Greeks)
THANK you you just admit Arbanites are Greeks

PLZ SOMEONE EXPLAIN ME HOW THAT CAN BE DONE?

Nikas
14-09-14, 09:43
WOW

PLZ SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT HIS WRITTING?
FIRST HE SAY THE TURKS ARE MUSLIMIZED GREEKS
AND THEN HE SAY THAT OTTO FORCED THE MUSLIM GREEKS (TURKS) TO CHRISTIANIZED?
and who christianized the Turks (Greeks)
THANK you you just admit Arbanites are Greeks

PLZ SOMEONE EXPLAIN ME HOW THAT CAN BE DONE?

Come now, it's easy. The Muslim Greeks (Turks) of Greece who rebelled against the Turkish Muslims (Turks too) were forced to be Christian Greeks (Turks again) while the Turkish Christians of Turkey (Turks of course) who were forced out because of the exchange with the Christian (formerly Muslim Turks) Greeks (Turks obviously) were also forced to be Greek Christians (really Turks; keep up now).

But of course the Albanians (Collaborators) remained pure Albanians even though they were so cozy with the Turks (real Turks) that they didn't have a full scale national rebellion with the other Balkan nations and even mass joined their conquerors (Turks in case you missed it).

Easy as 1,2,3..!

Yetos
14-09-14, 10:27
I remember an good goalkeeper ,he played with Olimpiakos of Pireus. His name was Tukuroglou, best goalkeeper in Greece. The suffix oglou is like in North Europe, son .
So this greek goalkeeper was the son of Tukur.

you follow the tactics of divide and congeur,

you want to divide the parts of modern Greek to smaller pieces, and you accuse one by one so to create bad feelings among the smaller parts,
you make me a bulgarian, and then you said that Greeks does want us,
the you make Arbanites all the South Greeks,
you baptise as Albanians even sarakatsans,
then you name Turks the Greeks of minor Asia,
when you stop?
have something for Cretans too?


Sorry, I will not eat your bait,


I will answer with your words,

1 500 000 Christian Turks left their home and properties and lost children and walk even 1000 km in mud some, just to come to Greece
and i don't know how many Muslim Greeks left their houses in Greece and went to Turkey cause they were muslims?
and all people also change language?

Something smell bad here,

and i ask
WHY THE TURKS NAME THEM RUM RUMLAR? MEANING ROMANS? (FROM EAST ROMAN EMPIRE)

simply they were Greco-Romans with major element GREEK
since most of them speak clear ancient Greek dialects,

what you call christian Turks is the remnants of a destruction, the lost of >3500 years of Hellenism in minor Asia


Sorry these people did nothing wrong for me,
they are as Greek as I am, no Matter for you Makedonia is not Greece,

Now you make me 2 times PROUD,
one cause we stop all this guys like you,
second cause we accept the remnants of Hellenism of own Makedonian sons PERGAMOS ΠΕΡΓΑΜΟΣ

King Bardhyl
14-09-14, 10:30
The nonsense one can post just because they have an internet connection. Albanians, of all people, calling others "Turks". The kettle truly calls the pot black. They dost protest too much, perhaps some underlying recognition of who did most of the collaborating with the Ottomans, and it must be somewhat challenging to square their inflated national pride with the undisputed fact that of all their neighbours, only they and the Bosnians did not seem to have the mettle to resist converting en-masse to their conquerors. Not that it is the religion itself that I have any issue with or make a value-judgement on, I simply point out that for such a long, proud, and entrenched culture and people as our Albanian friends they most surely had more resolve than their southern half-breed, degenerate, rootless neighbours who being mostly Turks in any case, of course could not but assimilate with their overlords.

But wait, that did not happen now did it.

It would be time-consuming, tedious and frankly bring it to the level of the most base nationalist spamming to sit here and find and post as many references available on the net on how their very language and historical references do not even put them in the lands they currently occupy until post-1,000 AD, the evidence for lack of Illyrian continuity, and all the other goodies one can find out there. I no more have the desire to do so, or see a more rewarding outcome, then to have a conversation on the Scottish referendum with my neighbours barking dog, but some of the nonsense being said deserves the proverbial slap to the side of the reality head, and the so called "Greeks are Turks" gibberish is a good case in point to highlight the lack of basic critical reasoning.

So the simple and straight-forward way to cut through to the heart of the matter for those who seem to equate the very well attested and documented thousands-year old Greek communities, dating in some cases to over 200 years before Alexander the Great, whose era we started discussing in this thread, of Asia Minor with their descendants, and later forced emigrants, with somehow being Christian "Turks" is:

Since these Greeks are somehow Christian Turks that were deported to Greece (the prosfygi) show us when, where, and how these Turks converted to Christianity and in such vast numbers?

My historical knowledge must be quite poor, for everything I have read and understood to-date on the Turks, from the Seljuks to the Ottomans, pretty much states that by the time they arrived in Asia Minor they were already Muslim, and after conquering these lands subjected the Christians to basically second-class citizenship. Why did such numbers then decide to convert from the ruling caste to the religion of the oppressed? What is for the greater economic benefits? The upward social mobility? The true word of Jesus Christ? Where is that great baptism in the sources? If our Albanian friends have some problems locating this, perhaps some Turkish contributors can enlighten us?

Why, in the Balkans the Albanians and Bosnians converted to Islam for the opposite reason mostly, yet these Turks somehow felt the need to go from the ruling to the ruled, the privileged to the un-privileged, the elite to the underfoot, and not just in isolated pockets but such vast numbers! After all 20%, or is it 80%, of all Athens apparently has Turkish surnames we are told!

I eagerly await this amazing rewrite of late Byzantine, Ottoman, and early twentieth-century history, and the opportunity to have all my misconceptions and Greek fuelled propaganda all cleared up.

I have nothing again greek, turkish or other people.
To make clear, there is a difference between greek and albanian. For us is most important nationality for you most important is religion.
So your government made an agreement with Turkish government, it's called exchange of population. You sendin Turkey 500.000 europian musslims,and Turkey send in Greece 1.500.000-2.000.000 asiatic christians . This is an fact .
Also is an fact that a part of albanian converted in musslims. As i told, this is not a problem for us. Why they converted ? I can explain this, but first you can help me answering to this questions :
Who brought the Turks in the Balkans and against whom? In the battle of Kosovo, was an anti-Ottoman Balkan coalition why had not the Greek? During the 100 years war was made by Albanians against the Turks from Ulcinj to Peloponnese, including the 25 years of resistance led by Skanderbeg, where were the Greeks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanderbeg However, during an ambush in the same battle, Ballaban managed to capture some important Albanian noblemen, including Moisi Arianit Golemi, a cavalry commander, Vladan Gjurica, the chief army quartermaster, Muzaka of Angelina, a nephew of Skanderbeg, and 18 other officers. [106] These men were sent immediately to Constantinople where they were skinned alive for fifteen days and later cut to pieces and thrown to the dogs. [106] Skanderbeg's pleas to have these men back, by either ransom or prisoner exchange, failed. [106]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius Mehmed therefore sought the most anti-Western cleric he could find as a figure of unity for the Greeks under Turkish rule – and Gennadius as leading anti-Union figure was a natural choice. On 1 June 1453, just three days after the fall of the city, the new Patriarch's procession passed through the streets where Mehmed received Gennadius graciously and himself invested him with the signs of his office – the crosier (dikanikion) and mantle. This ceremonial investiture would be repeated by all Sultans and Patriarchs thereafter. And finally after you failed to tell me the name of a Greek hero, can you tell me a Greek uprising against the Turks during 400 years invasion? I am very curios. If you call uprising to fill Turkish harems with Christian girls, ok".

King Bardhyl
14-09-14, 11:00
Come now, it's easy. The Muslim Greeks (Turks) of Greece who rebelled against the Turkish Muslims (Turks too) were forced to be Christian Greeks (Turks again) while the Turkish Christians of Turkey (Turks of course) who were forced out because of the exchange with the Christian (formerly Muslim Turks) Greeks (Turks obviously) were also forced to be Greek Christians (really Turks; keep up now).


Easy as 1,2,3..!
Hemmmm. .......
No it's not easy. Very complicate, i told you the greek problem is very complicate.
In albania it's easy nothing to change with others, not important religion.
This is the difference between West and East, the divison betwen state and religion .

Yetos
14-09-14, 11:11
Hemmmm. .......
No it's not easy. Very complicate, i told you the greek problem is very complicate.
In albania it's easy nothing to change with others, not important religion.
This is the difference between West and East, the divison betwen state and religion .


I don't see it complicated.

only you see it complicated cause you start from wrong beginning,

When you answer you shelf who the Turks call RUM/RUMLAR you will easily solve it.

albanopolis
14-09-14, 11:55
WOW

and how do you know? you count them one one 4 000 000 names to find that? :petrified: :petrified:

SO ALBANIANS HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO DO BUT TAKE THE TELEPHONE"S COMPANY CATALOGUE AND COUNT THE NAMES? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
There are ready sources for that! It looks like forced laugh!
BRILLIANT, YOU WILL GO AHEAD IN FUTURE, ANDANCED SCIENCE counting the names



now lets see what yuou say to us



First you Turks are Muslimized Greeks. Not all.
A good percentage of them. I would say 10%
Then you say Greeks are Christian Turks. ??????????????????
Only 53%. The rest was always christian

Only you and the Albanian friend can understand how that happened,




PLZ SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT HIS WRITTING?
FIRST HE SAY THE TURKS ARE MUSLIMIZED GREEKS
AND THEN HE SAY THAT OTTO FORCED THE MUSLIM GREEKS (TURKS) TO CHRISTIANIZED?
and who christianized the Turks (Greeks)
THANK you you just admit Arbanites are Greeks

PLZ SOMEONE EXPLAIN ME HOW THAT CAN BE DONE?
Greeks also were heavy muslimanized under ottomans, same like Albanians.
There were muslim greeks in Turkey who eventually became Turks.
There were muslim greeks in Greece who by decree of king Otto became Orthodox.
But legacy remained.
One of those legacies is Turkish last names like HajiMihalis.
Do you want to tell me know that HajiMihalis is not made of joining two names together?
Are you going to tell me that Haji is not turkish?

King Bardhyl
14-09-14, 12:37
There is about 2 millions of Albanians written in Latin letters, but don't see how does that make 'em Latin...

First. Only in Kosova are 2 millions albanian.
Second . It's true we use latin letters because we are after a long time again in West side . But we are not latins , slavs ore anglosaxons. We are ALBANIAN,the most oldest population of Europe.
Third. If you want to speak about albanians, serbs, etc, you know the place. We have an discussion unconclude.

Yetos
14-09-14, 12:39
First. Only in Kosova are 2 millions albanian.
Second . It's true we use latin letters because we are after a long time again in West side . But we are not latins , slavs ore anglosaxons. We are ALBANIAN,the most oldest population of Europe.
Third. If you want to speak about albanians, serbs, etc, you know the place. We have an discussion unconclude.

that second is a fantastic joke :laughing:

a creole nation and a creole language are the most ancient in Europe?

Yetos
14-09-14, 12:52
Greeks also were heavy muslimanized under ottomans, same like Albanians.
There were muslim greeks in Turkey who eventually became Turks.
There were muslim greeks in Greece who by decree of king Otto became Orthodox.
But legacy remained.
One of those legacies is Turkish last names like HajiMihalis.
Do you want to tell me know that HajiMihalis is not made of joining two names together?
Are you going to tell me that Haji is not turkish?

you know little,

in peloponese before revolt lived >47 000 Turks, after revolt none.


you don't understand
Kolokotronis τσεκουρι και φωτια στους προσκυνημενους Fire and axe to benders,
besides if there muslims Greeks or Arbanites why you slain them at the Orlov's revolt?
why you burned and slain Arbanites in Argos?

Hadjimichalis Mexis Χατζημιχαλης Μεξης, a famous Arbanitis, ask him,
Hadji is a prothema given to those who travel at Jerusalem and visit Christ tomp, not a turkish origin
how you name the muslims you travel to Mekka and Kaaba?
hadjichristos Dagovic a Serb that fought in Greek revolt is he turk also?


because you are a muslim, this does not mean that all the others are.
some denied the priviledges of being muslim in Ottoman's empire,
and some benefit changing religion and become Pomaks (helpers, allies)

Luan
14-09-14, 14:33
that second is a fantastic joke :laughing: a creole nation and a creole language are the most ancient in Europe? Greece a creol nation, and creole language still believe they are anciant greeks. LMAO

ΠΑΝΑΞ
14-09-14, 14:42
@bardyll, albanopolis
Paramythistoria and Paramythysteria, full of contrandictions and antiphasis!You are not interested for history as you claimed but only for parapolitical propaganda, actually you looted the threads both topic and offtopic ( the term -"toxic" instead of - "offtopic" is more reliable because you poisoned the forum!)
It supposed all the Eupedia fans admire the personal opinions but we most care about reasonable facts and not arguments with violence custom and prefabricated conclusions.
-Once you lie always a LIAR

(!) is that a tue or not:
The foto with the happy soldier occupy my territorial state of origin, Achelloos valley/Agrafa. The place you are pointing it is and it was always Greece and it will always be Hellas. ( not illyrian, check your patriot Aristo.)
"...αυτή δ' 'εστίν η περί Δωδώνην και Άχελλώο [...]ώκουν γάρ οί Σελλοί ενταύθα και οι καλούμενοι τότε μέν Γραικοί,νυν δε Έλληνες Aristotle(Μετεωρ 352b)

(!) G.Karaiskakis is Sarakatsan by blood and culture and origin : http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%93%CE%B5%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82_% CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%8A%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%AC%CE %BA%CE%B7%CF%82

(!) The Iskos Family of course ( talking about self determination, Arvanites?)http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9F%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B5%C E%B9%CE%B1_%CE%8A%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%85(!) (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9F%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B5%C E%B9%CE%B1_%CE%8A%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%85(!)The)
The Sarakatsans proudly derify themselves from Vlachs and Arvanites:
http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/1546025
(http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/1546025http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%83%C E%AC%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%B9()http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%83%C E%AC%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%B9
(!) a nice photo which explain the deep reasons of your claim :
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-u9RUvZWBAxI/U-pcOmewb7I/AAAAAAAAB1Q/J0iJHxwN4tM/s1600/5324a.jpg
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-u9RUvZWBAxI/U-pcOmewb7I/AAAAAAAAB1Q/J0iJHxwN4tM/s1600/5324a.jpg()(!) For the Antropologists, Mr Poulianos !!! (the excavator of -Petralona cave/Chalkidiki)
For the Sarakatsans, the Paleoeuropeans (the pelasgians?)
http://www.aee.gr/hellenic/5sarakatsani/sarakatsani.html

So, undoubtly you are not reliable and you profoundly express racist feelings against your neighbours .Also all that i mentioned above conducted especially for the issues -Karaiskakis, -Sarakatsani, -Arvanites, -Suliotes, -Botsaris(very personal)Guess what, Both parents -Sarak's and a suliotan grand-ma with a black scarf on the head(!!!) and not a white(!!!);
Also i own and very proudly have a - Kara on my surname. suppose you know why!
We are culturally Greeks and free by addiction!
We are less than the 2% of the greek people of Greece and we are the purest greeks!

Υou busted from the first time, you are Eddie's Rama agent!

King Bardhyl
14-09-14, 14:50
Ncncncq, Sali Berisha agent .

King Bardhyl
14-09-14, 15:08
I haven't any problem with tsoban people . My best friends here in albania are tsoban. We have an problem here in Albania with greek goverment . Because your government pay 350EU in a month to tsobani people and gipsy to declare themeselfs like greek minority. Greece is now the most poor country in Europe, and your government spent europian money for nationalist agenda . Today the Tsobani community is divide, because your goverment pay money.
I love tsobani people .
Fuc meta, meta tao .

albanopolis
14-09-14, 15:27
[QUOTE=ΠΑΝΑΞ;438902]@bardyll, albanopolis
Paramythistoria and Paramythysteria, full of contrandictions and antiphasis!You are not interested for history as you claimed but only for parapolitical propaganda, actually you looted the threads both topic and offtopic ( the term -"toxic" instead of - "offtopic" is more reliable because you poisoned the forum!)
It supposed all the Eupedia fans admire the personal opinions but we most care about reasonable facts and not arguments with violence custom and prefabricated conclusions.
-Once you lie always a LIAR

(!) is that a tue or not:
The foto with the happy soldier occupy my territorial state of origin, Achelloos valley/Agrafa. The place you are pointing it is and it was always Greece and it will always be Hellas. ( not illyrian, check your patriot Aristo.)
"...αυτή δ' 'εστίν η περί Δωδώνην και Άχελλώο [...]ώκουν γάρ οί Σελλοί ενταύθα και οι καλούμενοι τότε μέν Γραικοί,νυν δε Έλληνες Aristotle(Μετεωρ 352b)

(!) G.Karaiskakis is Sarakatsan by blood and culture and origin : http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%93%CE%B5%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82_% CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%8A%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%AC%CE %BA%CE%B7%CF%82

(!) The Iskos Family of course ( talking about self determination, Arvanites?)http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9F%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B5%C E%B9%CE%B1_%CE%8A%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%85(!) (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9F%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B5%C E%B9%CE%B1_%CE%8A%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%85(!)The)
The Sarakatsans proudly derify themselves from Vlachs and Arvanites:
http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/1546025
(http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/1546025http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%83%C E%AC%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%B9()http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%83%C E%AC%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%B9
(!) a nice photo which explain the deep reasons of your claim :
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-u9RUvZWBAxI/U-pcOmewb7I/AAAAAAAAB1Q/J0iJHxwN4tM/s1600/5324a.jpg
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-u9RUvZWBAxI/U-pcOmewb7I/AAAAAAAAB1Q/J0iJHxwN4tM/s1600/5324a.jpg()(!) For the Antropologists, Mr Poulianos !!! (the excavator of -Petralona cave/Chalkidiki)
For the Sarakatsans, the Paleoeuropeans (the pelasgians?)
http://www.aee.gr/hellenic/5sarakatsani/sarakatsani.html

So, undoubtly you are not reliable and you profoundly express racist feelings against your neighbours .Also all that i mentioned above conducted especially for the issues -Karaiskakis, -Sarakatsani, -Arvanites, -Suliotes, -Botsaris(very personal)Guess what, Both parents -Sarak's and a suliotan grand-ma with a black scarf on the head(!!!) and not a white(!!!);
Also i own and very proudly have a - Kara on my surname. suppose you know why!
We are culturally Greeks and free by addiction!
We are less than the 2% of the greek people of Greece and we are the purest greeks!

Υou busted from the first time, you are Eddie's Rama agent![/QUOTE



I am glad that your surname starts with kara..
That means you yourself are a 24 karat Turk that now feels Greek
Turks are a respected nation in the league of Nations and a major power in the Balkans.
Turkish heritage you have gives you a cause of being proud Greek.

Yetos
14-09-14, 15:28
I haven't any problem with tsoban people . My best friends here in albania are tsoban. We have an problem here in Albania with greek goverment . Because your government pay 350EU in a month to tsobani people and gipsy to declare themeselfs like greek minority. Greece is now the most poor country in Europe, and your government spent europian money for nationalist agenda . Today the Tsobani community is divide, because your goverment pay money.
I love tsobani people .
Fuc meta, meta tao .


yes you have,
and what is your problem? you want also?

Yetos
14-09-14, 15:36
[QUOTE=ΠΑΝΑΞ;438902]@bardyll, albanopolis
Paramythistoria and Paramythysteria, full of contrandictions and antiphasis!You are not interested for history as you claimed but only for parapolitical propaganda, actually you looted the threads both topic and offtopic ( the term -"toxic" instead of - "offtopic" is more reliable because you poisoned the forum!)
It supposed all the Eupedia fans admire the personal opinions but we most care about reasonable facts and not arguments with violence custom and prefabricated conclusions.
-Once you lie always a LIAR

(!) is that a tue or not:
The foto with the happy soldier occupy my territorial state of origin, Achelloos valley/Agrafa. The place you are pointing it is and it was always Greece and it will always be Hellas. ( not illyrian, check your patriot Aristo.)
"...αυτή δ' 'εστίν η περί Δωδώνην και Άχελλώο [...]ώκουν γάρ οί Σελλοί ενταύθα και οι καλούμενοι τότε μέν Γραικοί,νυν δε Έλληνες Aristotle(Μετεωρ 352b)

(!) G.Karaiskakis is Sarakatsan by blood and culture and origin : http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%93%CE%B5%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82_% CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%8A%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%AC%CE %BA%CE%B7%CF%82

(!) The Iskos Family of course ( talking about self determination, Arvanites?)http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9F%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B5%C E%B9%CE%B1_%CE%8A%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%85(!) (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9F%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B5%C E%B9%CE%B1_%CE%8A%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%85(!)The)
The Sarakatsans proudly derify themselves from Vlachs and Arvanites:
http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/1546025
(http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/1546025http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%83%C E%AC%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%B9()http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%83%C E%AC%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%B9
(!) a nice photo which explain the deep reasons of your claim :
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-u9RUvZWBAxI/U-pcOmewb7I/AAAAAAAAB1Q/J0iJHxwN4tM/s1600/5324a.jpg
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-u9RUvZWBAxI/U-pcOmewb7I/AAAAAAAAB1Q/J0iJHxwN4tM/s1600/5324a.jpg()(!) For the Antropologists, Mr Poulianos !!! (the excavator of -Petralona cave/Chalkidiki)
For the Sarakatsans, the Paleoeuropeans (the pelasgians?)
http://www.aee.gr/hellenic/5sarakatsani/sarakatsani.html

So, undoubtly you are not reliable and you profoundly express racist feelings against your neighbours .Also all that i mentioned above conducted especially for the issues -Karaiskakis, -Sarakatsani, -Arvanites, -Suliotes, -Botsaris(very personal)Guess what, Both parents -Sarak's and a suliotan grand-ma with a black scarf on the head(!!!) and not a white(!!!);
Also i own and very proudly have a - Kara on my surname. suppose you know why!
We are culturally Greeks and free by addiction!
We are less than the 2% of the greek people of Greece and we are the purest greeks!

Υou busted from the first time, you are Eddie's Rama agent![/QUOTE



I am glad that your surname starts with kara..
That means you yourself are a 24 karat Turk that now feels Greek
Turks are a respected nation in the league of Nations and a major power in the Balkans.
Turkish heritage you have gives you a cause of being proud Greek.

only genetics show the oposite,
the termination kara- If you knew has to do with colour of sheap, and cloths,
when Con/polis fall some Greeks decide to wear only Black and breed also black sheap,

now you learn another term after the hadji which many Arbanites had also,

albanopolis
14-09-14, 16:23
Albanians with last name hadji has many. Some are moslem some are orthodox. But since we have many religions we are liberated from national or racial complexes.
Arvanites with name hadj there arn't
One of the main reasons that Arvaniti left Albania after Turkish conquest was that they were hard core orthodox.
When Greeks in Peloponnese were paying tribute to Otomans, Arbanites of Peloponnese were giving them a hard fight
You have a lot to learn my dear "Macedonian original"l from Turkey.

King Bardhyl
14-09-14, 16:55
According to wikipedia :
Hadji

Hadji is an honorific title given to a Muslim person who has successfully completed the Hajj to Mecca, as well as a derogatory term used by American military personnel towards Arabs, Muslims and Middle Easterners.

It may also refer to:

People:

El Hadji Diouf (born 1981), Senegalese footballer El Hadji Guissé, Senegalese judge Hadji Murad (circa 1790–1852), Caucasian leader Ismail Hadji Maulvi-Mohammed (1781–1831), Muslim reformer Marios Hadjiandreou, Cypriot athlete Mustapha Hadji (born 1971), Moroccan international footballer Nikos Hatzis (born 1976), Greek basketball player Tony Hatzis (born 1986), Australian footballer Youssouf Hadji (born 1980), Moroccan footballer

Fictional characters:

Hadji (character), a character in the American television cartoon series Jonny Quest Hadji, the master of all genies, in the American television series I Dream of Jeannie

Songs:

Hadji girl, a song

Yetos
14-09-14, 17:14
According to wikipedia :
Hadji

Hadji is an honorific title given to a Muslim person who has successfully completed the Hajj to Mecca, as well as a derogatory term used by American military personnel towards Arabs, Muslims and Middle Easterners.

It may also refer to:

People:

El Hadji Diouf (born 1981), Senegalese footballer El Hadji Guissé, Senegalese judge Hadji Murad (circa 1790–1852), Caucasian leader Ismail Hadji Maulvi-Mohammed (1781–1831), Muslim reformer Marios Hadjiandreou, Cypriot athlete Mustapha Hadji (born 1971), Moroccan international footballer Nikos Hatzis (born 1976), Greek basketball player Tony Hatzis (born 1986), Australian footballer Youssouf Hadji (born 1980), Moroccan footballer

Fictional characters:

Hadji (character), a character in the American television cartoon series Jonny Quest Hadji, the master of all genies, in the American television series I Dream of Jeannie

Songs:

Hadji girl, a song


then what about hadjimichalis Mexis the famous arbanitan which probably you never heard? don't make muslim now, it was one of the filiki and the biggest of Spetses or Ydra Arbanites
hadji was also given to Christians when visit jerusalem and tomp of ressurection.
it was chaplet a wreath of flowers which vistors from abroad should worn or bring, I can not remember more details.
lots of Arbanites had that hadji,
even in Serbia and Romania exists that hadji,

we find the term also in Armenian
hadjik in Armenia is a kind wreath, a crown a honour chaplet

I do not know about Iranian/aryan if exists also,
or in Arabian
so can not deny any other version.

YOU CAN LOOK ALSO HERE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatzi


n a Christian context, the title designates a person who has visited Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem) and the Holy Land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Land) and was baptised in the Jordan River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_River).

ΠΑΝΑΞ
14-09-14, 17:22
Thank you all,
I am a Kara- and a Kostas and very proud of it.
Black is for the fear, the terror. (turk; undeniable, a humiliating epithet, an exonym which also contains the greatness of their carriers)
For example.
General Plastiras.>Black raider, Kara seytan; Kara-Satan= Black satan.
Every one who messed with greeks is a -Kara, like Kara-Mehmet Hali the admiral which only trusted greek sailors ;

Kara- is fearless
Kara- is for infidels.
kara- is for warriors
Kara- is too much of you.
Kara- is my freedom and my pass in Turkey and in Greece and to all Balkans.

Do not forget Saracatsan blood, sperm, and diaries free Europe from Ottomans!!!

Your legs is too short and your butt is almost to the ground, you have unhaired chests and blue eyes like a baby angel and your name is Florian!

Have you walked alone to Philopappou late night Florian?

@Υetos eisai Aetos. come to Hamudgia! xaxaxaxa!

Yetos
14-09-14, 17:36
@Υetos eisai Aetos. come to Hamudgia! xaxaxaxa!

I spend much time there, more than 1 year,
I will come again,

mail me area, maybe next year,
efaga olh thn adeia se egxeirhsh kysths.

Yetos
14-09-14, 17:55
Albanians with last name hadji has many. Some are moslem some are orthodox. But since we have many religions we are liberated from national or racial complexes.
Arvanites with name hadj there arn't
One of the main reasons that Arvaniti left Albania after Turkish conquest was that they were hard core orthodox.
When Greeks in Peloponnese were paying tribute to Otomans, Arbanites of Peloponnese were giving them a hard fight
You have a lot to learn my dear "Macedonian original"l from Turkey.

ne de ska
neve ska
chea ska
kisses from mount Pieria and from

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Diamandis_Nicolaou.jpg/250px-Diamandis_Nicolaou.jpg

if was not Androutsos, he would be vice general of Karaiskakis,

the makedonian army was bigger than even karaiskakis could not imagive or gather,
the joined forces of Makedonian diamantis Pappas karatasos etc were reaching 6 000 men
Androytsos ambition for power and glory send his troops and Turks to fight with them,
he wanted to be only one, Kriezis make that mistake also, hearing Androutsos and left thousands of greeks outside the fight.
search his story. since you are interested in Greek revolt.

want more,

my villages also gave men to Makedonian struggle,
they joined the Ematheia and west Makedonian corps.
what you do that time?
you served the Ottoman's.

7-10 000 Albanian Soldiers unter Turkish command in my area,

and you speak to us about freedom?

and why you are interested so much about Arbanites?
your Albanians slain them after Orlov's revolt in Argos,

better ask forgiveness on what you do to them.

Nikas
14-09-14, 18:09
I have nothing again greek, turkish or other people.
To make clear, there is a difference between greek and albanian. For us is most important nationality for you most important is religion.
So your government made an agreement with Turkish government, it's called exchange of population. You sendin Turkey 500.000 europian musslims,and Turkey send in Greece 1.500.000-2.000.000 asiatic christians . This is an fact .
Also is an fact that a part of albanian converted in musslims. As i told, this is not a problem for us. Why they converted ? I can explain this, but first you can help me answering to this questions :
Who brought the Turks in the Balkans and against whom? In the battle of Kosovo, was an anti-Ottoman Balkan coalition why had not the Greek? During the 100 years war was made by Albanians against the Turks from Ulcinj to Peloponnese, including the 25 years of resistance led by Skanderbeg, where were the Greeks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanderbeg However, during an ambush in the same battle, Ballaban managed to capture some important Albanian noblemen, including Moisi Arianit Golemi, a cavalry commander, Vladan Gjurica, the chief army quartermaster, Muzaka of Angelina, a nephew of Skanderbeg, and 18 other officers. [106] These men were sent immediately to Constantinople where they were skinned alive for fifteen days and later cut to pieces and thrown to the dogs. [106] Skanderbeg's pleas to have these men back, by either ransom or prisoner exchange, failed. [106]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius Mehmed therefore sought the most anti-Western cleric he could find as a figure of unity for the Greeks under Turkish rule – and Gennadius as leading anti-Union figure was a natural choice. On 1 June 1453, just three days after the fall of the city, the new Patriarch's procession passed through the streets where Mehmed received Gennadius graciously and himself invested him with the signs of his office – the crosier (dikanikion) and mantle. This ceremonial investiture would be repeated by all Sultans and Patriarchs thereafter. And finally after you failed to tell me the name of a Greek hero, can you tell me a Greek uprising against the Turks during 400 years invasion? I am very curios. If you call uprising to fill Turkish harems with Christian girls, ok".

Religion was, and is, one of the defining elements of the Greek national self-consciousness and this is no different then say Spanish or Italians and Catholicism, or Turks and Islam, however to say that it is the only one for the Greek nation is incorrect. I would point out the reference for the definition of ethnicity for a more comprehensive view of what makes us Greek and to it I would in fact add "blood" as DNA results suggest that we are basically who we always have been, with some additions from other population groups along the way which is only natural:

"An ethnicity, or ethnic group, is a socially-defined category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural, or national experience.[1][2] Membership of an ethnic group tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, myth of origins, history, homeland, language (dialect), or even ideology, and manifests itself through symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

Now, let us be clear, were they "Asiatic Christians" or "Turkish Christians" with the implication they were "Turks" as we keep hearing? What exactly constitutes an "Asiatic Christian"? It is a fact that Asia Minor had long established Greek communities which pre-date in some cases the conquests of Alexander the Great and maintained their continuity right up to the turn of the twentieth-century exchanges you mention just like there were Greeks in Bulgaria with that particular population exchange.

In regards to your questions the Turks were brought into the Balkans, initially in small numbers as mercenaries or allies, by the Byzantine rulers in the 14th century AD to aid in their civil wars or to be used against their other foreign enemies, such as the Western mercenary companies. Of course by then you realize they had taken pretty much all of Asia Minor, and with all the depredations against the Byzantines from all sides and inside, they could hardly be too picky of where they looked for trained warriors at the time. As for Kosovo and the later resistance to the Ottomans, well did it occur to you by then the Greeks were already pretty much broken and subdued, barely hanging on for existence. Who after all had been fighting against the Turks, from the Seljuks on, for longer, or with more land, economic, material and population losses? By the time of the defence of Constantinople itself how many soldiers do you think the Greeks could, or did field? Prior to this, the Turks sent multiple huge raiding armies into Thessaly, Attica, and the Peloponnesus (Morea) to pillage, plunder and devastate Greece and soften up their southern flank while the marched on their conquests in the Balkans. Look up Turahan Bey for that. Later on, let us not forget the Turkish use of the Albanian bands to keep Greece subdued.

You may look up the Morosini-led Morean War or the Orlov Revolt and the correspondence of the Greeks with those leaders in regards to your interest in early Greek attempts for cooperation with anti-Ottoman forces, or liberation. Of course there is also the somewhat famous one of 1821.

As I mentioned before, isn't this attempt at all this deflection with Greeks really a way to cover up certain other insecurities, your mass-collaborationism being a big one perhaps?

King Bardhyl
14-09-14, 18:14
Language lesson 1
TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK det Custom Adeti Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos Aga Land owner Agas Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi Alan Area, ground Alana Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga Aman For mercy's sake Aman Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli Ananas Pineapple Ananas Anason Aniseed Anithos Anfora Anchor Amphoreus Angarya Forced labor Angaria Aptal Stupid Abdalis Apukurya Carnival Apokria Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis Arnavut Albanian Arnautis Asik Someone in love Asikis Atlet Athlete Athlitis Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis Ayran A drink Ariani

Shit we are only in the "A" section.

King Bardhyl
14-09-14, 18:23
Religion was, and is, one of the defining elements of the Greek national self-consciousness and this is no different then say Spanish or Italians and Catholicism, or Turks and Islam, however to say that it is the only one for the Greek nation is incorrect. I would point out the reference for the definition of ethnicity for a more comprehensive view of what makes us Greek and to it I would in fact add "blood" as DNA results suggest that we are basically who we always have been, with some additions from other population groups along the way which is only natural:

"An ethnicity, or ethnic group, is a socially-defined category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural, or national experience.[1][2] Membership of an ethnic group tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, myth of origins, history, homeland, language (dialect), or even ideology, and manifests itself through symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

Now, let us be clear, were they "Asiatic Christians" or "Turkish Christians" with the implication they were "Turks" as we keep hearing? What exactly constitutes an "Asiatic Christian"? It is a fact that Asia Minor had long established Greek communities which pre-date in some cases the conquests of Alexander the Great and maintained their continuity right up to the turn of the twentieth-century exchanges you mention just like there were Greeks in Bulgaria with that particular population exchange.

In regards to your questions the Turks were brought into the Balkans, initially in small numbers as mercenaries or allies, by the Byzantine rulers in the 14th century AD to aid in their civil wars or to be used against their other foreign enemies, such as the Western mercenary companies. Of course by then you realize they had taken pretty much all of Asia Minor, and with all the depredations against the Byzantines from all sides and inside, they could hardly be too picky of where they looked for trained warriors at the time. As for Kosovo and the later resistance to the Ottomans, well did it occur to you by then the Greeks were already pretty much broken and subdued, barely hanging on for existence. Who after all had been fighting against the Turks, from the Seljuks on, for longer, or with more land, economic, material and population losses? By the time of the defence of Constantinople itself how many soldiers do you think the Greeks could, or did field? Prior to this, the Turks sent multiple huge raiding armies into Thessaly, Attica, and the Peloponnesus (Morea) to pillage, plunder and devastate Greece and soften up their southern flank while the marched on their conquests in the Balkans. Look up Turahan Bey for that. Later on, let us not forget the Turkish use of the Albanian bands to keep Greece subdued.

You may look up the Morosini-led Morean War or the Orlov Revolt and the correspondence of the Greeks with those leaders in regards to your interest in early Greek attempts for cooperation with anti-Ottoman forces, or liberation. Of course there is also the somewhat famous one of 1821.

As I mentioned before, isn't this attempt at all this deflection with Greeks really a way to cover up certain other insecurities, your mass-collaborationism being a big one perhaps?

When we speak about ethnos, are two things :
Language
National conscience
The chief authority was conceded to the Albanian shipowners; George Konduriottes of Hydra was elected president of Greece, and Botasses of Spetzas vice-president…..The Greeks are the most prejudived of all Europeans when there is a question of the purity of the Hellenic race, and no people regards education with more favour; yet with all this nationality and pedantry they intrusted their public affairs, in a period of great difficulty, to two men who could not address them in the Greek language. (George Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution)

Nikas
14-09-14, 18:26
Language lesson 1
TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK det Custom Adeti Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos Aga Land owner Agas Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi Alan Area, ground Alana Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga Aman For mercy's sake Aman Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli Ananas Pineapple Ananas Anason Aniseed Anithos Anfora Anchor Amphoreus Angarya Forced labor Angaria Aptal Stupid Abdalis Apukurya Carnival Apokria Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis Arnavut Albanian Arnautis Asik Someone in love Asikis Atlet Athlete Athlitis Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis Ayran A drink Ariani

Shit we are only in the "A" section.

The kettle calling the pot black yet again:

Karaaaç explains that there are approximately 3000 Turkish words in Greek at his study of "Dictionary of Turkish Words in Other Languages (Türkçe Verintiler Sözlüü)”. (Karaaaç, 2008:LXIV). According to the researchers working on the Turkish words in Greek, these numbers ranged from 1500-3000 (tel:1500-3000). According to Karaaaç, the presence of Turkish words in Greek is 3000 in the study of Kukkidis in 1960. This number is 1968 in the study of Georgidas in 1974. There are Turkish words in “Etymological Dictionary of Giagkoullis” in 1994. (Karaaaç, 2008:LXIV)
Exchanging the word was not unilateral. At the same time, Turkish also transferred Greek words. According to Karaaaç, the number of these words are 900 in Konstantinos’s study in 1960 and this number is 597 in Tzitzilis's book published in 1987. (Karaaaç, 2008:LXIII)
There are also many Turkish words in Albanian which affected by Turkish. According to Dizdari, the number of these words is 4406. (Dizdari, 2005:4)

http://www.mcser.org/journal/index.php/jesr/article/viewFile/2833/2795 (http://www.mcser.org/journal/index.php/jesr/article/viewFile/2833/2795)

Of course we took some vocabulary after 400 odd years, after your 500 odd years you took their words and their religion too.

King Bardhyl
14-09-14, 18:30
OPAAAHHHHH
the liberators of Greece…..Nine or ten of them performed the Albanian national dance, to the sound of a bad fiddle and a little jingling guitar played with a quill, for the amusement of her Majesty, who did not seem enchanted with this exhibition….these men, who were exposing themselves in this absurd manner, were the far-famed Colocotroni, Nikitas, surnamed the Turkophagos, or Turk-eater, Makryani, Vasso of Montenegro, Kota Botzaris,, and others equally celebrated…….this was merely the dance of the Albanians, a totally distinct race of men from the Greeks. (Blackwood’s Magazine, XLIII)
Embrace your shqiptari national conscience.

Nikas
14-09-14, 18:37
When we speak about ethnos, are two things :
Language
National conscience
The chief authority was conceded to the Albanian shipowners; George Konduriottes of Hydra was elected president of Greece, and Botasses of Spetzas vice-president…..The Greeks are the most prejudived of all Europeans when there is a question of the purity of the Hellenic race, and no people regards education with more favour; yet with all this nationality and pedantry they intrusted their public affairs, in a period of great difficulty, to two men who could not address them in the Greek language. (George Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution)

Well, I don't think you are qualified to tell us what constitutes ethnos, but in "national conscience" a great Greek Arvanite hero who fought for the liberty of Greece, as many Arvanites did, for Greece of course, not for Albania and often against Albanians. As for language, my preferred language is English, but I am not an Englishman...

ΠΑΝΑΞ
14-09-14, 18:42
Αll together now to the chit chat room
To speak about diary and how to get your self free with fresh mouthfull chunks of greek white feta jizz,
@Bardyll, Where did you find this fancy uniform? It is feta jizz money from Amsterdam?

(!)The foto with the happy soldier occupy my territorial state of origin, Achelloos valley/Agrafa. The place you are pointing it is and it was always Greece and it will always be Hellas. ( not illyrian, check your patriot Aristo.)
"...αυτή δ' 'εστίν η περί Δωδώνην και Άχελλώο [...]ώκουν γάρ οί Σελλοί ενταύθα και οι καλούμενοι τότε μέν Γραικοί,νυν δε Έλληνες

Aristotle(Μετεωρ 352b)

King Bardhyl
14-09-14, 18:47
Αll together now to the chit chat room
To speak about diary and how to get your self free with fresh mouthfull chunks of greek white feta jizz,
@Bardyll, Where did you find this fancy uniform? It is feta jizz money from Amsterdam?

(!)The foto with the happy soldier occupy my territorial state of origin, Achelloos valley/Agrafa. The place you are pointing it is and it was always Greece and it will always be Hellas. ( not illyrian, check your patriot Aristo.)
"...αυτή δ' 'εστίν η περί Δωδώνην και Άχελλώο [...]ώκουν γάρ οί Σελλοί ενταύθα και οι καλούμενοι τότε μέν Γραικοί,νυν δε Έλληνες

Aristotle(Μετεωρ 352b)


Did you like the feta jiz from the mountains of Laberia ?
It's bio.

Yetos
14-09-14, 19:10
Language lesson 1
TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK det Custom Adeti Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos Aga Land owner Agas Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi Alan Area, ground Alana Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga Aman For mercy's sake Aman Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli Ananas Pineapple Ananas Anason Aniseed Anithos Anfora Anchor Amphoreus Angarya Forced labor Angaria Aptal Stupid Abdalis Apukurya Carnival Apokria Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis Arnavut Albanian Arnautis Asik Someone in love Asikis Atlet Athlete Athlitis Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis Ayran A drink Ariani

Shit we are only in the "A" section.

you tell us nothing

go to E

economy οικονομια
ecology οικολογια

go to c
Cholesterol χοληστερινη

many greek word where exported from Antique to Europe,
and many words Turks took loan to fullfill their vocabulary,
and many words Greeks took from Ottomans due to occupation and rulling system, like kitap kiofte

besides if I open the lexicon all over the world what I see

computer κομπιουτερ etc etc
potatto παταττα,
coffee καφε
ball μπαλλα
chocolate σοκολατα instead of κακαογαλον
Laptop in Greek φορητος ηλεκτρονικος υπολογιστης, (1 hour to say) so adopt term Laptop

How you call in everyday Albanian computer laptop tablet playstation internet etc?
kompjuter laptop tablete playstation ....

you see world is accepting foreign words many times.
for example the Ottoman's kitap (notorius pappers of ownership) enter cause Ottoman's were authorities, and Lingua franca was Turkish, so the word χρυσοβουλον forgot,
but replaced after with word συμβολαιον, although the word kitap is used by olders cause not even 100 years past from liberation of Makedonia.

albanopolis
14-09-14, 19:24
Well, I don't think you are qualified to tell us what constitutes ethnos, but in "national conscience" a great Greek Arvanite hero who fought for the liberty of Greece, as many Arvanites did, for Greece of course, not for Albania and often against Albanians. As for language, my preferred language is English, but I am not an Englishman...

There is not evidence that Arvanites and Albanians fought each other. Arvanites fought the war of independence not necessarily for the love of Greece, but mainly for the orthodoxy.
It should be said that there were some Arvanites who were feeling Greek since the earliest wave of Arvanites is 11th century, so hey had lost the memory of the old country.
But it is well known that 7 years after Greece got independence there was a fight among Greeks. Half of Greeks wanted to rejoin Ottoman Turks because some of them were Muslim Greeks and others were traders that had lost there trade privileges they had under Ottomans. This uprising is well documented and king Otto is credited with putting it down. Had the pro Ottomans wan that battle Athens would be the capital of Turkey and todays Greeks would have been proud Turks. There was a strong bond between Turks and Greeks.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
14-09-14, 19:45
Florian .Do not forget Saracatsan blood, sperm, and diaries free Europe from Ottomans!!!

( continue from other story)
...and the Greek light, save the world again for another time! :good_job:

next episode:
Σαλαβάρδαλος the loonie Bard (singer) King, perform us the Drug Queen (=Γυνή;) Aleka.:wary2:

-Aleka vs Godjila and 7 nazi soldiers without pants.- :laughing:

albanopolis
14-09-14, 20:04
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior.jpg (http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior.jpg)
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior304.jpg (http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior304.jpg)
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior305.jpg (http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior305.jpg)

Who is Nassau William Senior???
http://www.offalyhistory.com/article...862/Page1.html


http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/dakin.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/dakin.png)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/dakin133.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/dakin133.png)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ofsKG4Jlu5I/R3anKH01bAI/AAAAAAAAAPg/9k3v3d-jy04/s1600/unitedmacedoniamapimageqs9.jpg


The Historic Map of Greece, printed by the Greek Parliament, which includes parts of today's Albania and Turkey, and also prints several toponyms in today's Macedonia in Greek language.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6nvZlnqI5gs/R1AERUdCMOI/AAAAAAAACZk/530SyluvArs/s1600-R/greater-greece.jpg
The map is taken from a Greek irredentist site (enotitanpride.tripod.com/ellada), which claims all these territories as "Greek". The site, among other things, calls for war to "reunite" Macedonian southern provinces with Greece.

While the Greek government keeps talking about the "expansionist propaganda of Macedonia against Greece", no one bothers to discuss the way Greece threats territorial matters. The map, printed in 2000 by the Parliament, has a legen

ΠΑΝΑΞ
14-09-14, 20:20
-It was enough chit chat, for me, goodnight to all of [email protected] παληκάρι μου[email protected]Νικας Having hard times with your english! [email protected], Florianopolis, for me you are greeks and allready some people of your families sing the greek anthem everyday to school.keep the map of [email protected], I despise Golden dawn party and -isms. -You like greeks?«Αν δει κανείς τους Σαρακατσάνους να περιφέρονται σε μια επαρχιακή πόλη, ξαφνιάζεται από την κορμοστασιά, την υπερηφάνεια και την ευγένειά τους. Ο Σαρακατσάνος δεν φοβάται ν' ατενίσει τον ήλιο κατάματα. Ανάμεσα σ΄ αυτόν και τον κόσμο δεν υπάρχει αδιάβατο χάσμα. Γιατί οι Σαρακατσάνοι και γενικότερα οι ορεινοί υπεράσπισαν πάντα ηρωικά την ελευθερία και διαφύλαξαν τις τεράστιες πηγές της ανανέωσης και της δημιουργίας που χαρακτηρίζουν τους Ελληνες», έγραψε ο Γ. Καββαδίας. - See more at: http://sarakatsanoi.blogspot.gr/2009/09/1965-1991.html#sthash.wMUkskFK.dpuf

Yetos
14-09-14, 20:35
....... ok

goodnight everybody.

Nikas
14-09-14, 21:57
There is not evidence that Arvanites and Albanians fought each other. Arvanites fought the war of independence not necessarily for the love of Greece, but mainly for the orthodoxy.
It should be said that there were some Arvanites who were feeling Greek since the earliest wave of Arvanites is 11th century, so hey had lost the memory of the old country.
But it is well known that 7 years after Greece got independence there was a fight among Greeks. Half of Greeks wanted to rejoin Ottoman Turks because some of them were Muslim Greeks and others were traders that had lost there trade privileges they had under Ottomans. This uprising is well documented and king Otto is credited with putting it down. Had the pro Ottomans wan that battle Athens would be the capital of Turkey and todays Greeks would have been proud Turks. There was a strong bond between Turks and Greeks.

No? Ali Pasha and the Souliotes? For Orthodoxy? When Botsaris swore this in 1814 to the underground resistance group the Filiki Etairia was it to country or Orthodoxy?


6610

"Last of all, I swear by Thee, my sacred and suffering Country,— I swear by thy long-endured tortures,— I swear by the bitter tears which for so many centuries have been shed by thy unhappy children, by my own tears which I am pouring forth at this very moment,— I swear by the future liberty of my countrymen, that I consecrate myself wholly to thee; that hence forward thou shall be the cause and object of my thoughts, thy name the guide of my actions, and thy happiness the recompense of my labours.”

-Conclusion of the Great Oath of the Filiki

The Greeks "fought" for many reasons, but primarily politics and economics which is what is usually what is fought for. Landowning magnates who had different views on the future of the Greek policies fought the centralizing control of the nascent Greek state, exemplified by the assassination of the first Greek Prime Minister by the Maniots, not some overwhelming desire to rejoin the Ottoman Empire as you state.

I am sorry, but despite all your efforts we are quite comfortable being Greek, and comfortable with you being Albanian and this is my last post on this subject as I will now return to the thread topic of the exciting Macedonian Greek tomb finds in northern Greece, which of course have nothing to do with the posts you have hijacked the thread with.

albanopolis
14-09-14, 23:27
Its not about hijacking the thread. Its about the historical truth. Greeks are taking credits for something that was not and its not theirs. This is my point of view.
There are other people in the region who dispute the tale of Macedonians being Greek also.
The reason that scholars do not interfere with the ongoing disputes is because it really does not matter what ethnicity Macedonians were. Some people like me do care and this will be challenged anywhere we can.

Nikas
15-09-14, 03:38
Its not about hijacking the thread. Its about the historical truth. Greeks are taking credits for something that was not and its not theirs. This is my point of view.
There are other people in the region who dispute the tale of Macedonians being Greek also.
The reason that scholars do not interfere with the ongoing disputes is because it really does not matter what ethnicity Macedonians were. Some people like me do care and this will be challenged anywhere we can.

Well, ok then, however dispute does not equate with acceptance and not every theory has an equal weighting. As I alluded too in an earlier post, there is an uneven balance of evidence between what I believe is your theory of the Macedonians being Illyrians versus what is the general academic consensus. Whereas "Greek" or not "Greek" may be in contention, I would be happy to explore a recognized authority that claims they are strictly-speaking Illyrian (and thus by extension "Albanian") published in the last 40 or so odd-years. If I have misunderstood your position I apologize but I believe that is your line of thought. In any case, I think the further findings from the Amphipolis tomb will allow us to further expand on this without needing to deviate from the topic at hand, but I would not hold your breath for some earth-shattering revelations outside what is already pretty well established about the Macedonians...

Yetos
15-09-14, 07:06
Florian .Do not forget Saracatsan blood, sperm, and diaries free Europe from Ottomans!!!

( continue from other story)
...and the Greek light, save the world again for another time! :good_job:

next episode:
Σαλαβάρδαλος the loonie Bard (singer) King, perform us the Drug Queen (=Γυνή;) Aleka.:wary2:

-Aleka vs Godjila and 7 nazi soldiers without pants.- :laughing:

ti les re trelle,

It was Aoratos Arxh ΑΟΡΑΤΟΣ ΑΡΧΗ.
neither sarakatsans neither moraites neither arbanites neither cretans neither makedones neither aromani vlachs neither pontioi etc etc
even the times of war many times we kept our other face, the misery, we split to english russians etc etc like today.
we had lamogia even that time, yet the will of some and the spirit of others manage to do the miracle.
the problem is that we build modern greece in the spirit of equality cause every body gave a small piece of his soul,
alla dosame dikaioma pshfoy kai sta lamogia, apo tous toyrkoys apallaghkame, oxi omos apo ta lamogia,
As einai. toylaxiston sta paidia mas tha leme istories sta Ellhnika, esto kai sto thrakiotiko idioma.

King Bardhyl
15-09-14, 22:45
A little gift fot our greek friends:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1RwjEtc7Vk
The song speak about this man :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87er%C3%A7iz_Topulli
and his friends:
On 25 February 1908, Çerçiz and his followers had assassinated the Turkish Binbaşı (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binbashi) of Gjirokastër (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokast%C3%ABr),[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87er%C3%A7iz_Topulli#cite_note-Gl-4)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87er%C3%A7iz_Topulli#cite_note-5) who had brutally suppressed those Albanians working for Albanian political ends. Five of them, including Çerçiz Topulli, then fled to Mashkullorë, a village near the town of Gjirokastër.
On March 18 they were surrounded in Mashkullorë by Turkish forces from Ioanina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioanina).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87er%C3%A7iz_Topulli#cite_note-Gl-4) The Ottoman force of 150 troops vastly outnumbered Çerçiz's Kachak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kachak).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87er%C3%A7iz_Topulli#cite_note-RE-3) However, Topulli and his fighters managed to keep the Turks at bay from dawn until dusk and then fled into the mountains, an event which was later celebrated in folk ballads.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87er%C3%A7iz_Topulli#cite_note-RE-3)
But the curiosity is that singer is from Greek minority in south albania, named Irini Qiriako. the song is in albanian.

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 15:49
Religion was, and is, one of the defining elements of the Greek national self-consciousness and this is no different then say Spanish or Italians and Catholicism, or Turks and Islam, however to say that it is the only one for the Greek nation is incorrect.

I don`t agree with you. The Italians are first Italian and after of course are catholics and latins. The Turks are first Turkish people not arabs.
Rigas Velestinlis was a Greek writer, political thinker and revolutionary, active in the Modern Greek Enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Greek_Enlightenment), remembered as a Greek national hero, a victim of the Balkan uprising against the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) and a forerunner of the Greek War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence).
In the history of our countries we have such people who with their opinion later constitute the basis of political action in the movement for national liberation. So their opinion is the foundation of the nation.
Rigas Velestinlis was a vlach not a ethnic greek.
Rigas the Vlach defines who is a “Greek”, 1797!
9;3 RIGAS VELESTINLIS* THE NEW POLITICAL CONSTITU­TION OF THE INHABITANTS OF RUMELI, ASIA MINOR, THE ARCHIPELAGO. MOLDAVIA AND WALLACHIA <1797)
Concerning the Republic Article 1
The Greek Republic is one, for all that it contains within it different races and religions. It does not look on differences in worship with a hostile eye.

158 The Movement for Greek Independence 1770—1821
It is indivisible, for all that rivers and seas divide its provinces, which constitute a unitary, indissoluble body.

Concerning the Division of the People

Article 2
The Greek People, that is to say those people living in this Empire. without distinction of religion _or_languagc, is divided into primary assemblies in the districts, to put into practice its sovereign authority. That is to say they assemble in every province, to give their opinion on any problem.

Article 3
It is divided, for administrative convenience and so that justice shall be done everywhere in like manner, into provinces, districts and subdistricts. That is to say Thessaly is called a province. Magnesia (that is to say the villages of Volos) a district and subdistrict: the administration of Makrynitsa over twelve villages is a subdistrict.
Concerning the Class of Citizens Article 4
Every man born and inhabiting this Empire, of the age of 21, is a citizen.
Every foreigner, truly aged twenty-one, who has lived in this Empire for a year and who lives by his labour, is a citizen.
He who buys landed property is a citizen.
He who marries a Greek woman is a citizen.
He who takes an adopted child is a citizen.
He who speaks colloquial Greek or the ancient tongue and helps Greece, even if he lives in the Antipodes (for the Greek leaven has spread to the two hemispheres) is a Greek and a citizen.
He who is a Christian and does not speak colloquial or ancient Greek, but only assists Greece, is a citizen.
And finally every foreigner whom the government considers to be a worthy inhabitant of the Motherland, that is to say as a good craftsman, a diligent teacher, a worthy soldier, is received in the Motherland and can share equally in the rights which all citizens share.

The Influence of the French Revolution 159
A foreign philosopher or European technician, who has left his homeland and has come to live in Greece, with the object of passing on his wisdom or craft, is not only considered as a genuine citizen, but at public expense a marble statue with the emblems of his teaching or his art i» to be erected, and the wisest Greek scribe is to write his life.

Source: "The Movement for Greek Independence, 1770-1821: A Collection of Documents" by Richard Clogg, 1976.
In accordance with the philosophical opinion of this person and other Greek pesonalities was written the first constitution of the Greek State.
The 1st Constitution of the Greek State, in the year 1827.

4. Provinces of Greece are all those that were taken and will be taken by weapons against the Ottoman Dynasty.

6. Greeks are:
a. All those indigenous people of the Greek State who believe in Christ.
b. All those, believers in Christ, who under the Ottoman slavery, came or they will come to the Greek State to struggle or to reside in it.
e. All those aliens, who come and enrol as citizens.

I hope that you readers will understand that anyone could be a Greek, the rules for becoming a Greek was not that harsh, thus Greeks claiming a 4000 year old ancestry become quite ridiculous.


So the base of your nation is not the language or national coscince but the religion. Still today Greece in the passports of it`s citizens writes religious affiliation.
Based on this philosophy the Greek government in present day paid in the form of pension 350 EU in a month each month to aromanin people and gipsy to declare themeselfs like greek minority. Greece is now the most poor country in Europe, and we have seen in the TV scene where the rich Greek distributing food aid for poor people and greek government spent europian money for nationalist agenda.
Albania has a small minority greek. Why should the Greek government to pay for other ethnicities to declare themselves Greek?
The most important personalities of the Greek minority are these three man:
Anastas Angjeli
http://www.ata.gov.al/te-ngarkuara/2801-Sekretar-i-komisionit-te-ekonomise-Anastas-Angjeli-Foto-Agim-Dobi2.jpg

Vangjel Dule
http://www.gazetarepublika.al/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Dule.gif


Vangjel Tavo
http://news.albanianscreen.tv//siti/sito_alsatnews/upload/images/53ce5a327e64f.jpg


While I was doing some research over some orthodox pages, I randomly found an interesting article.
Read the article

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 15:53
And this is the article:
The story of Ahmed the Greek
The article display the story of Ahmed, who was born in Afghanistan. He was involved in Taliban activities in his homeland. Our hero, Ahmed migrated on Athens and spoke Greek quite well. He wanted to convert himself on Christian and magically he found himself as being Greek.
Quote:
Former Taliban from Afghanistan Baptized on Mount Athos
AUGUST 18, 2013 BY FR. JOHN 7 COMMENTS
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O1fMzAQwS9U/Ubnn3DRz_GI/AAAAAAAAjSg/12lxoHm3mj0/s1600/ahmed1.jpg
Former talibanAhmed was born and raised in a village in Afghanistan in the middle of war. His childhood memories are dust, poverty, and compulsory Islamic education in the sacred writings and war.
“I do not remember anymore who fought whom, however there was constant warfare.”
http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/former-taliban.jpg
For years he worked for the Taliban doing various things. He was a fanatical Muslim who belonged to so-called radical Islam. At some point he could no longer bear this sort of life – misery, poverty, violence, pain, and death which he saw everywhere.
At 23 he journeyed through the impassable mountains into Pakistan and then to Iran. His only “passport” was the common language of Farsi.
He worked for two years there “without documents” and eventually arrived at the coast of Asia Minor in Turkey, which for him was the gate to the paradise of the West.
One winter evening nine years ago, with an inflatable that children play with on the beaches, two oars and four to five bottles of water, he along with a friend jumped into the sea across from Lesvos, which seemed so close.
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/sas/image/101205/120581.p.jpg?0.4323684372265684
In his own words:
“The sea was pitch black, it was a moonless night in the winter and very windy. We did not know how to swim. The waves looked like mountains to us. Somewhere in the distance a red light was flashing. The boat was like a nutshell in the waves. I soon realized that the journey to paradise was neither near nor easy. After about ten hours we came to the steep coast with rocks. We were in despair because we did not know if we would be able to climb it, it was so sharp.
Eventually we climbed and came to an unpaved road. Before long we came to an elderly woman in black with a head-covering – we thought she was a Muslim – and with a child. My friend spoke a little English, but she nothing. With hand signals she showed us the way to a paved road and gave us a few coins, which we knew was all she had, in order to take the bus into the city. We arrived at the port and took the first ferry to Piraeus. At the door they caught us.
After three months in a small reception center for immigrants that had many people like us, they gave us a map and we drove to Athens. I learned Greek and worked various jobs until I found a regular job with a company that placed solar panels. They payed me well, they wrote me up with the Social Insurance Institute, and I did my papers to receive political asylum. I worked for the same company in Athens for six years.
All these years after work I would go to the outside of the churches in the beginning – something was pulling me there – and afterwards I began to enter within. I would become calm. As my Greek was getting better, I wanted to know more about Christ. I found a New Testament, however it was in a language I did not understand [Koine Greek]. Eventually I found a blue one in the Greek I had learned. I began to read it. I decided that I wanted to become a Christian. I left Athens when the company closed and went to the provinces to find various rural jobs. Eventually I found a small basement apartment in the city nearby. It had a beach. I like the beaches very much in Greece. Shortly before Pascha in 2013, I decided to ask to become a Christian.”
On Wednesday June 5th, in the evening, on Mid-Pentecost according to the Old Calendar, on the balcony of the Athonite Cell of Marouda over Karyes, looking towards the Skete of Saint Andrew and the endless blue Aegean, the same sea he crossed one night from the opposite direction, under a beautiful sky and brilliant sun, Ahmed became a Christian.


In fact, this is the traditional way of becoming Greek. One who embraces Orthodoxy is automatically Greek since that identity is construed on religious basis. Regardless of your ethnic origin, you are entitled as the heir of ancient Hellenes at the very moment you sign the contract of a identity which is so easily negotiable. At this basis Greece laid its foundations (The Constitution of 1830s). According to that logic, Ahmed the taliban is considered Greek and in the same token as Herodotus did with Alexander I (thousands of years ago), some pseudo-historians will muster a good deal of evidences to back up the claim of some archaic Hellenism in Afghanistan even among Talibans.

albanopolis
17-09-14, 16:37
And this is the article:
The story of Ahmed the Greek
The article display the story of Ahmed, who was born in Afghanistan. He was involved in Taliban activities in his homeland. Our hero, Ahmed migrated on Athens and spoke Greek quite well. He wanted to convert himself on Christian and magically he found himself as being Greek.
Quote:
Former Taliban from Afghanistan Baptized on Mount Athos
AUGUST 18, 2013 BY FR. JOHN 7 COMMENTS
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O1fMzAQwS9U/Ubnn3DRz_GI/AAAAAAAAjSg/12lxoHm3mj0/s1600/ahmed1.jpg
Former talibanAhmed was born and raised in a village in Afghanistan in the middle of war. His childhood memories are dust, poverty, and compulsory Islamic education in the sacred writings and war.
“I do not remember anymore who fought whom, however there was constant warfare.”
http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/former-taliban.jpg
For years he worked for the Taliban doing various things. He was a fanatical Muslim who belonged to so-called radical Islam. At some point he could no longer bear this sort of life – misery, poverty, violence, pain, and death which he saw everywhere.
At 23 he journeyed through the impassable mountains into Pakistan and then to Iran. His only “passport” was the common language of Farsi.
He worked for two years there “without documents” and eventually arrived at the coast of Asia Minor in Turkey, which for him was the gate to the paradise of the West.
One winter evening nine years ago, with an inflatable that children play with on the beaches, two oars and four to five bottles of water, he along with a friend jumped into the sea across from Lesvos, which seemed so close.
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/sas/image/101205/120581.p.jpg?0.4323684372265684
In his own words:
“The sea was pitch black, it was a moonless night in the winter and very windy. We did not know how to swim. The waves looked like mountains to us. Somewhere in the distance a red light was flashing. The boat was like a nutshell in the waves. I soon realized that the journey to paradise was neither near nor easy. After about ten hours we came to the steep coast with rocks. We were in despair because we did not know if we would be able to climb it, it was so sharp.
Eventually we climbed and came to an unpaved road. Before long we came to an elderly woman in black with a head-covering – we thought she was a Muslim – and with a child. My friend spoke a little English, but she nothing. With hand signals she showed us the way to a paved road and gave us a few coins, which we knew was all she had, in order to take the bus into the city. We arrived at the port and took the first ferry to Piraeus. At the door they caught us.
After three months in a small reception center for immigrants that had many people like us, they gave us a map and we drove to Athens. I learned Greek and worked various jobs until I found a regular job with a company that placed solar panels. They payed me well, they wrote me up with the Social Insurance Institute, and I did my papers to receive political asylum. I worked for the same company in Athens for six years.
All these years after work I would go to the outside of the churches in the beginning – something was pulling me there – and afterwards I began to enter within. I would become calm. As my Greek was getting better, I wanted to know more about Christ. I found a New Testament, however it was in a language I did not understand [Koine Greek]. Eventually I found a blue one in the Greek I had learned. I began to read it. I decided that I wanted to become a Christian. I left Athens when the company closed and went to the provinces to find various rural jobs. Eventually I found a small basement apartment in the city nearby. It had a beach. I like the beaches very much in Greece. Shortly before Pascha in 2013, I decided to ask to become a Christian.”
On Wednesday June 5th, in the evening, on Mid-Pentecost according to the Old Calendar, on the balcony of the Athonite Cell of Marouda over Karyes, looking towards the Skete of Saint Andrew and the endless blue Aegean, the same sea he crossed one night from the opposite direction, under a beautiful sky and brilliant sun, Ahmed became a Christian.


In fact, this is the traditional way of becoming Greek. One who embraces Orthodoxy is automatically Greek since that identity is construed on religious basis. Regardless of your ethnic origin, you are entitled as the heir of ancient Hellenes at the very moment you sign the contract of a identity which is so easily negotiable. At this basis Greece laid its foundations (The Constitution of 1830s). According to that logic, Ahmed the taliban is considered Greek and in the same token as Herodotus did with Alexander I (thousands of years ago), some pseudo-historians will muster a good deal of evidences to back up the claim of some archaic Hellenism in Afghanistan even among Talibans.
Hellen!
He will now be Hellen, the hear of Alexadro Megallos and Perikli!

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 17:25
Hellen!
He will now be Hellen, the hear of Alexadro Megallos and Perikli!

I think this is a beautiful story. Sure, he can be Greek.
Apart from the bearded ones he has got the greek features.

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 20:35
I have a Greek living across the road from me who looks very similar to him.

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 20:49
(very personally)
(!)Actually i do not care me even if iam descendant of Kumplai khan even from Suleiman, iam speaking Greek now and im Greek.


This is an honest post. We albanian love sarakatsani people, because they resemble us. They have also BESA. We consider sarakatsani people our little brothers.
Fuc mete meta tao

Sile
17-09-14, 21:54
All you albanian people can settle all these arguments by just producing ancient artifacts that prove who you are............I really do not know why you deal with anything younger than the roman times when your claim is something else.

Yetos
17-09-14, 22:53
This is an honest post. We albanian love sarakatsani people, because they resemble us. They have also BESA. We consider sarakatsani people our little brothers.
Fuc mete meta tao

that is why you slain them at 1700 till 1940?

King Bardhyl
17-09-14, 23:03
I'm sure you have Ahmed's gyro features. When did your family bury their mother tongue for the romaic one?