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bicicleur
12-09-14, 17:00
There are 2 known hypothesis : the Anatolian hypothesis and the Pontic steppe origin.

I believe the Indoeuropeans originated on the Pontic steppe.
The Maykop culture were IMO non-Indoeuropean people who were very important for the development of the Indoeuropean culture and their metalurgical knowhow.

Now there are some people with a 3rd theory. They believe the origin of Indoeuropeans lies in the Leyla-Tepe_culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture) which would be ancestral to Maykop culture.

This would mean the Pontic steppe was only the second urheimat :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

Anatolian theory[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maykop_culture&action=edit&section=8)]Gamkrelidze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamaz_Gamkrelidze) and Ivanov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyacheslav_Vsevolodovich_Ivanov), whose views are somewhat controversial, suggest that the Maykop culture (or its ancestor) may have been a way-station for Indo-Europeans migrating from the South Caucasus and/or eastern Anatolia to a secondary Urheimat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urheimat) on the steppe. This would essentially place the Anatolian stock in Anatolia from the beginning, and at least in this instance, agrees with Colin Renfrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Renfrew,_Baron_Renfrew_of_Kaimsthorn)'s Anatolian hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis). Considering that some attempt has been made to unite Indo-European with the Northwest Caucasian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Caucasian_languages), an earlier Caucasian pre-Urheimat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urheimat) is not out of the question (see Proto-Pontic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Pontic)). However, most linguists and archaeologists consider this hypothesis incorrect, and prefer the Eurasian steppes as the genuine IE Urheimat.

I don't believe this 3rd theory for following reasons :

- horses were allready very important on the Pontic steppe and probably to a certain degree domesticated before the arrival of Maykop culture
it is with these horses that Indoeuropean people overpowered the people of Maykop culture and of other cultures later on.

- the pottery of the Indoeuropean people is of the 'Samara-type' which entered Europe 9000 years ago across the Ural , from Siberia and Chinese origin, 20000 years old. This pottery contrasts with the pottery originating from the middle east.

I would like you view and arguments on this.

Yetos
12-09-14, 17:28
1) the Renfrew hypothesis suggest a clear agricultural population,
the Anatolian hypothesis of renfrew believes that was IE language was the neolithic farmers
the Renfrew hypothesis does not cognate with Arsenic bronze road.

2) the gold mettalurgy and chariot expansion show a tottal different road than of Gibutas Kurgan's.
steppe people may domesticate horse, but chariots was not their favorite.

3) The Arzawa/Assuwa (If IE) case as also the Anatolian origin of Tocharian? pre or after indo-Hettit?

Angela
12-09-14, 18:45
Just generally, it all depends upon the point in time you're examining. If you're talking about a complete "Indo-European package" neolithicized, with language, metallurgy, chariots, horses, you're probably talking about the Pontic Caspian steppe at a relatively late period.

The fact is that I've always thought that people have attempted to simplify a complex people of complex origins, with technology from various cultures, into some single, ethnically "pure" group who dropped out of the sky and created their culture and language magically with no outside influences. I don't think that's how it worked. Rather, they remind me of the Normans...they intermarried with and borrowed madly from every culture with which they came into contact, and as a result prospered and expanded, and then influenced other groups.

Of course, it may also be that they expanded because they were a particularly nasty and aggressive sort. I prefer to think not. I am not the type of person who would ever gleefully and proudly proclaim that my y dna ancestors clubbed to death the males in the cultures they encountered. (And there you have why this hobby is not totally respectable and the sites which discuss it are often blocked.)

If Corded Ware is indeed an early Indo-European culture, it is 1000 years and a long way away from the first chariots.

Aberdeen
12-09-14, 21:29
Just generally, it all depends upon the point in time you're examining. If you're talking about a complete "Indo-European package" neolithicized, with language, metallurgy, chariots, horses, you're probably talking about the Pontic Caspian steppe at a relatively late period.

The fact is that I've always thought that people have attempted to simplify a complex people of complex origins, with technology from various cultures, into some single, ethnically "pure" group who dropped out of the sky and created their culture and language magically with no outside influences. I don't think that's how it worked. Rather, they remind me of the Normans...they intermarried with and borrowed madly from every culture with which they came into contact, and as a result prospered and expanded, and then influenced other groups.

Of course, it may also be that they expanded because they were a particularly nasty and aggressive sort. I prefer to think not. I am not the type of person who would ever gleefully and proudly proclaim that my y dna ancestors clubbed to death the males in the cultures they encountered. (And there you have why this hobby is not totally respectable and the sites which discuss it are often blocked.)

If Corded Ware is indeed an early Indo-European culture, it is 1000 years and a long way away from the first chariots.

I definitely agree with the importance of being specific about the time frame and cultural context. It does seem as if the Corded Ware folk, for example, may have been the first people to bring Y haplotype R1a (and possibly ANE) to Europe, but their culture certainly doesn't seem to be Indo-European and we don't know what language they spoke.

As for Indo-Europeans and violence, I'd prefer to think that my Y haplotype I ancestors didn't survive by switching sides and joining up with a bunch of psychotic criminal types on horseback. But the Indo-Europeans do seem to have been the first people to really focus on using bronze for weapon making, so it doesn't seem likely they were pacificists.

bicicleur
12-09-14, 22:22
I definitely agree with the importance of being specific about the time frame and cultural context. It does seem as if the Corded Ware folk, for example, may have been the first people to bring Y haplotype R1a (and possibly ANE) to Europe, but their culture certainly doesn't seem to be Indo-European and we don't know what language they spoke.

As for Indo-Europeans and violence, I'd prefer to think that my Y haplotype I ancestors didn't survive by switching sides and joining up with a bunch of psychotic criminal types on horseback. But the Indo-Europeans do seem to have been the first people to really focus on using bronze for weapon making, so it doesn't seem likely they were pacificists.

the question is who were the first speakers of some proto-indoeuropean language
and what tribe (haplgroup) were they

the fact that they could impose there language usualy means that they get the upperhand, being part of the elite

as for corded ware, some are supposed to have spread the proto-Baltic and proto-Slavic languages, so I'd say they were Indo-European
further west, in Scandinavia and northwest Europe they probably spread other Indo-European languages that were later replaced by Celtic/Germanic languages

as for horses and bronze weapons, it helped indo-europeans to split the skuls of others, but it also prevented others to break their skuls with their wooden clubs
violence existed allready in mesolithic and neolithic Europe , as it existed elsewhere in the world

it was simply the strongest who ruled
maybe it's politicaly correct to deny this and praise pacifism, but it isn't correct because it ain't the truth
in these days pacifism was total subjection to the master because there were no alternatives

Angela
12-09-14, 23:57
Since the first speakers of Indo-European were not literate, any assignment of their language to a specific group is obviously going to be based on the possession by the group in question of certain cultural traits. Opinions will, and have, differed.

Violence, in domestic circumstances, in crime, and in war has always been part of human society so far as I can tell. However, all cultures at all times are not morally equivalent in terms of their violent behavior. Specifically in terms of war and invasion, not all cultures exterminate all the males of the areas they conquer.

Most importantly, the fact that something exists and has existed in human society since time immemorial doesn't mean I have to abdicate my moral judgment about it. Also, one doesn't have to be a pacifist, which I'm not for what it's worth, to find that mass genocide is morally objectionable. So no, while obviously we're not responsible for the behavior of our ancestors, I personally wouldn't be happy to learn that my father's ydna stems from a line that practiced genocide on a massive scale.

I think the more pertinent question is why on earth in this day and age someone would be happy to discover that...

Ed. I want to be clear that I'm not aware of any evidence that this in fact happened. Nor am I saying that any one on this Board is celebrating such a thing.

Aberdeen
13-09-14, 02:50
Since the first speakers of Indo-European were not literate, any assignment of their language to a specific group is obviously going to be based on the possession by the group in question of certain cultural traits. Opinions will, and have, differed.

Violence, in domestic circumstances, in crime, and in war has always been part of human society so far as I can tell. However, all cultures at all times are not morally equivalent in terms of their violent behavior. Specifically in terms of war and invasion, not all cultures exterminate all the males of the areas they conquer.

Most importantly, the fact that something exists and has existed in human society since time immemorial doesn't mean I have to abdicate my moral judgment about it. Also, one doesn't have to be a pacifist, which I'm not for what it's worth, to find that mass genocide is morally objectionable. So no, while obviously we're not responsible for the behavior of our ancestors, I personally wouldn't be happy to learn that my father's ydna stems from a line that practiced genocide on a massive scale.

I think the more pertinent question is why on earth in this day and age someone would be happy to discover that...

Ed. I want to be clear that I'm not aware of any evidence that this in fact happened. Nor am I saying that any one on this Board is celebrating such a thing.

I take your point. And my joke about pacifists wasn't meant literally. Yes, violence has always been with us, but some cultures have specialized in it to a point of being creepy, and only psychopaths celebrate that fact. And it does seem quite likely that we would have some serious moral qualms about the behaviour of Indo-Europeans. However, the extent to which they exterminated rather than killing only those who resisted doesn't seem quite clear to me, and may have varied over time and circumstance. For example, my I1 haplotype is still fairly common in some parts of Europe.

bicicleur
13-09-14, 08:41
we will never know, but there is no proof that indoeuropeans commited genocides , I believe e.g. 'civilized' Romans did far worse
it is human nature to dominate when oportunity comes
Marija Gimbutas kind of demonised indoeuropeans comparing them to 'peaceful old europe' which now seems quite a naive story

indeed haplo I and especially haplo I1 is still fairly common
I1 seems to have thrived since late neolithic/early bronze
other neolithic haplogroups (G, J, T, E1b1) seem to have declined
some tribes could cope better with indoeuropeans than others
why? it's an intriguing question

i'm a bit of topic now ..

Angela
13-09-14, 16:05
we will never know, but there is no proof that indoeuropeans commited genocides , I believe e.g. 'civilized' Romans did far worse
it is human nature to dominate when oportunity comes
Marija Gimbutas kind of demonised indoeuropeans comparing them to 'peaceful old europe' which now seems quite a naive story

indeed haplo I and especially haplo I1 is still fairly common
I1 seems to have thrived since late neolithic/early bronze
other neolithic haplogroups (G, J, T, E1b1) seem to have declined
some tribes could cope better with indoeuropeans than others
why? it's an intriguing question

i'm a bit of topic now ..


I believe I already stated that there is no proof that the Indo-Europeans committed any mass genocide of the males of central Europe. However, it certainly seems to be claimed and celebrated by a number of people with an interest in genetics, including a prominent blogger. So perhaps if you feel it is a calumny you might think about taking it up with them, and not with me.

I also believe I already stated that violence seems to be an endemic part of human nature. Perhaps you missed that part of my post.

And for the record, I find it extremely annoying that every time I post about ancient history or population genetics in a way that presents facts which might somehow be construed to put the Indo-Europeans, or any group north of the Alps, for that matter, in less than the most flattering of lights, certain posters seem compelled to post a comment about the supposedly dastardly deeds of the Romans.

Leaving aside the fact that as ancient empires go they were a rather tolerant and inclusive bunch, in my opinion, so long as you didn't oppose them and paid your taxes promptly, (which I think is part of the reason that their empire lasted for 1000 years) I am not responsible for the deeds of my ancestors, and I do not hold other people responsible for the deeds of theirs...I find this kind of tit for tat rather childish.

It also may have escaped your attention that Italians, particularly north and central Italians, have a rather high percentage of ydna "R1b-M69" lineages, lineages which currently seem to be viewed as "Indo-European". So, these Indo-Europeans, whatever their deeds or misdeeds, are, through my paternal line, at least in part also my ancestors. When I said that I would be sorry to discover that my father's ydna line was responsible for any mass genocides, I was speaking quite literally. Then there is my mtDna, U2e, which also seems to have Indo-European associations. The Indo-Europeans got around.

Alan
13-09-14, 16:19
There are more than 2 theories. A much stronger scenario than the Anatolian hypothesis is in my opinion an Iranian Plateau, Mesopotamian origin.

bicicleur
14-09-14, 13:07
I believe I already stated that there is no proof that the Indo-Europeans committed any mass genocide of the males of central Europe. However, it certainly seems to be claimed and celebrated by a number of people with an interest in genetics, including a prominent blogger. So perhaps if you feel it is a calumny you might think about taking it up with them, and not with me.

I also believe I already stated that violence seems to be an endemic part of human nature. Perhaps you missed that part of my post.

And for the record, I find it extremely annoying that every time I post about ancient history or population genetics in a way that presents facts which might somehow be construed to put the Indo-Europeans, or any group north of the Alps, for that matter, in less than the most flattering of lights, certain posters seem compelled to post a comment about the supposedly dastardly deeds of the Romans.

Leaving aside the fact that as ancient empires go they were a rather tolerant and inclusive bunch, in my opinion, so long as you didn't oppose them and paid your taxes promptly, (which I think is part of the reason that their empire lasted for 1000 years) I am not responsible for the deeds of my ancestors, and I do not hold other people responsible for the deeds of theirs...I find this kind of tit for tat rather childish.

It also may have escaped your attention that Italians, particularly north and central Italians, have a rather high percentage of ydna "R1b-M69" lineages, lineages which currently seem to be viewed as "Indo-European". So, these Indo-Europeans, whatever their deeds or misdeeds, are, through my paternal line, at least in part also my ancestors. When I said that I would be sorry to discover that my father's ydna line was responsible for any mass genocides, I was speaking quite literally. Then there is my mtDna, U2e, which also seems to have Indo-European associations. The Indo-Europeans got around.

maybe you should start another thread about this, Angela i'll be happy to contribute

Silesian
14-09-14, 16:48
Some questions.
No massive invasion into Sapta Sindhu has been shown, either ancient written texts or archeological evidence ie, horses, weapons, Kurgan burial mounds.
Why does Vedic have only Munda and Dravidian incorporated. An invading proto-PIE language should also show evidence of Proto Kartvelian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartvelian_languages) and Proto Uralic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages) language family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_family) ?
Tocharian is related to Italic/Celtic and was the second to break away after Hittite, before Italic/Celtic/Germanic; they had terms for domesticated pig and agricultural grain. How can these intrusive terms be explained, when the Saka did not have them and yet both groups originated from a common PIE homeland ?

Albanian-Armenian-sometimes Greek could be considered isolate with no other extant language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate)
There is not one single common branch of R1a found among Kosovo Albanians- Armenians-Greeks, yet all three have ANE and R1a in 0-5%. How is this possible if originating from a common PIE homeland?

MOESAN
14-09-14, 23:56
concerning violence:
in the heath of the battle surely more than a slaughter occurred whatever the winner I-Ean or not -
but I doubt barbar warriors killed EVERYTIME ALL the defeated males after the victory -
concerning the I-Ean warriors-pastors come from the Steppes into Eastern Europe (Carpathian Bassin and other places too) very often we see them taking the lands needed for their breeding (hills grassy slopes) and not occupying a whole territory - new physical types appeared at some time very quickly in some regions they were absorbed giving a crossing far from in equilibrium as it should have been if they had killed all the male population surrounding them! the Corded Ware people, in the Netherlands, took sometimes the bad sandy lands, taking no advantage over the megalithical people of the shores (Funnelbeaker/Amphores people with a strong heritage from Long Barrows or akin people, surely smart enough themselves) -
I know some people are found of heroic warriors with some sadic tendancies, and sometimes they were like that, but I think the winners when their conquest was total were glad to have some solid male slaves and peasants families; without kill all the males they had just to deprive them of sexual contacts with females and to take these females for themselves (what is egoistic and not to respectuous for these females!) and this occurred surely more than a time, but even like that I suppose this system was not complete...
sure, the today very contrasted distribution of Y-HaploGs compared to mt-DNA HaploGs distribution proves some "male" prerogatives of winners
I've not the time to give my point about other posts (question of R1a and Greeks and so on...) but i'll do soon
good night all of you (night can send some sagacity)

Aberdeen
15-09-14, 02:39
Some questions.
No massive invasion into Sapta Sindhu has been shown, either ancient written texts or archeological evidence ie, horses, weapons, Kurgan burial mounds.
Why does Vedic have only Munda and Dravidian incorporated. An invading proto-PIE language should also show evidence of Proto Kartvelian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartvelian_languages) and Proto Uralic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages) language family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_family) ?
Tocharian is related to Italic/Celtic and was the second to break away after Hittite, before Italic/Celtic/Germanic; they had terms for domesticated pig and agricultural grain. How can these intrusive terms be explained, when the Saka did not have them and yet both groups originated from a common PIE homeland ?

Albanian-Armenian-sometimes Greek could be considered isolate with no other extant language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate)
There is not one single common branch of R1a found among Kosovo Albanians- Armenians-Greeks, yet all three have ANE and R1a in 0-5%. How is this possible if originating from a common PIE homeland?

Albanian, Armenian and Greek are all independent branches of the Indo-European language group, not language isolates. And I see no reason why the language of the Vedic invaders of India should have had loan words from Proto-Kartvelian or Proto-Uralic languages.

arvistro
15-09-14, 21:48
Speaking of violence and y hg replacement. I believe not only local haplos were replaced largely but also most of IE paternal lines were replaced by few of IE paternal lines (the royal, elite) lineages. Is there a new (relatively new) R1b subclade that originated already in Europe and now is wide spread? If so, it must have come from one royal/chieftain person with this new mutation.

kamani
15-09-14, 23:26
There is not one single common branch of R1a found among Kosovo Albanians- Armenians-Greeks, yet all three have ANE and R1a in 0-5%. How is this possible if originating from a common PIE homeland?

Kosovo-Albanians are very indigenous to the area, most of their lineages survived in isolate mountain areas, so probably they're largely unmixed with Indo-Europeans. Albania-Albanians have some 12-15% R1a and no East-European autosomal component on 23AndMe, so that's a sign of a very early IE spread.

Yetos
16-09-14, 01:37
we will never know, but there is no proof that indoeuropeans commited genocides , I believe e.g. 'civilized' Romans did far worse
it is human nature to dominate when oportunity comes
Marija Gimbutas kind of demonised indoeuropeans comparing them to 'peaceful old europe' which now seems quite a naive story

indeed haplo I and especially haplo I1 is still fairly common
I1 seems to have thrived since late neolithic/early bronze
other neolithic haplogroups (G, J, T, E1b1) seem to have declined
some tribes could cope better with indoeuropeans than others
why? it's an intriguing question

i'm a bit of topic now ..

the M Gibutas case is it compatible with Varna necropolis?

I mean gold mettalurgy is older than bronze weapons,
and follows tottaly different way,

Yetos
16-09-14, 02:20
Some questions.
No massive invasion into Sapta Sindhu has been shown, either ancient written texts or archeological evidence ie, horses, weapons, Kurgan burial mounds.
Why does Vedic have only Munda and Dravidian incorporated. An invading proto-PIE language should also show evidence of Proto Kartvelian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartvelian_languages) and Proto Uralic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages) language family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_family) ?
Tocharian is related to Italic/Celtic and was the second to break away after Hittite, before Italic/Celtic/Germanic; they had terms for domesticated pig and agricultural grain. How can these intrusive terms be explained, when the Saka did not have them and yet both groups originated from a common PIE homeland ?

Albanian-Armenian-sometimes Greek could be considered isolate with no other extant language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate)
There is not one single common branch of R1a found among Kosovo Albanians- Armenians-Greeks, yet all three have ANE and R1a in 0-5%. How is this possible if originating from a common PIE homeland?

I will answer for Greeks,

Greece has a quite good amount of R1a,
many consider it Slavic but that creates a paradox,
in NorthCentral Greece reach 21-24% which is higher than Serbia Albania Makedonia Bulgaria Romania (don't rember if bosnia also) the closest high R1a is Croatia which is far away.
the 5 Slavic clans that entered Greece are not in the core of that R1a
the paradox is if we consider Greek R1a as Slavic means that these people after slavicise all the balkans finally hellenized!!!!
I mean they came from Ukraine and Moravia above Danub just to end up as greeks?

also the R1a in Greece follows the road of Dorians and their colonies
21-24% in Central North Greece
12-14% in Doris/da
8-10 % in Lokri italy etc etc

the R1a in Greece is a big story,
which for many is Slavic and for others came at withe IE from Danube 3000 years before Slav.

that is beacause R1a is upsent in many Greek places like Crete
while Mycenean r1b exist

Silesian
16-09-14, 07:13
Albanian, Armenian and Greek are all independent branches of the Indo-European language group, not language isolates.
Do Albanian, Armenian, Greek derive from the same source; PIE ? If yes, can you show evidence of a common ydna-snp within all three independent branches which derive from the same source ?
http://www.hjholm.de/SLRD-map.jpg







And I see no reason why the language of the Vedic invaders of India should have had loan words from Proto-Kartvelian or Proto-Uralic languages.
Does PIE contain loan words from Proto-Kartvelian and Proto-Uralic.? If yes, were they incorporated before or after the migration of the Vedic invaders? Once they settled in, they incorporated Proto-Munda and Dravidian loanwords to Proto-Kartvelian and Proto-Uralic ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratum_in_Vedic_Sanskrit

bicicleur
16-09-14, 08:50
I will answer for Greeks,

Greece has a quite good amount of R1a,
many consider it Slavic but that creates a paradox,
in NorthCentral Greece reach 21-24% which is higher than Serbia Albania Makedonia Bulgaria Romania (don't rember if bosnia also) the closest high R1a is Croatia which is far away.
the 5 Slavic clans that entered Greece are not in the core of that R1a
the paradox is if we consider Greek R1a as Slavic means that these people after slavicise all the balkans finally hellenized!!!!
I mean they came from Ukraine and Moravia above Danub just to end up as greeks?

also the R1a in Greece follows the road of Dorians and their colonies
21-24% in Central North Greece
12-14% in Doris/da
8-10 % in Lokri italy etc etc

the R1a in Greece is a big story,
which for many is Slavic and for others came at withe IE from Danube 3000 years before Slav.

that is beacause R1a is upsent in many Greek places like Crete
while Mycenean r1b exist

that makes sense
IMO Myceneans, Ilyyrians, Prhrygians, Armenians .. were the last R1b coming from the steppe, they were ousted by R1a Srubnic culture which became known as Cimmerians
all tribes that arrived later were mainly R1a mixed with I2a1b

bicicleur
16-09-14, 09:00
Do Albanian, Armenian, Greek derive from the same source; PIE ? If yes, can you show evidence of a common ydna-snp within all three independent branches which derive from the same source ?
http://www.hjholm.de/SLRD-map.jpg



almost all European and Anatolian R1b are L23 + , so that makes only 4 clades : L23*, Z2103, L51* and L11
IMO there are 3 major invasion periods of R1b into Europe/Anatolia :
- Anatolian +/- 6000 years ago
- proto Italic/Celtic/Noridic +/- 5000 years ago , they are L11
- Mycenian, Illyrian, Armenian, Phrygian 4000 - 3000 years ago

It is hard to say what clades are Anatolian and what are Mycenian, Illyrian, Armenian, Phrygian because they settled in the same territoria.

bicicleur
16-09-14, 09:03
the M Gibutas case is it compatible with Varna necropolis?

I mean gold mettalurgy is older than bronze weapons,
and follows tottaly different way,

the Varan necropolis proved M Gimbuta case wrong

bicicleur
16-09-14, 09:10
concerning violence:
in the heath of the battle surely more than a slaughter occurred whatever the winner I-Ean or not -
but I doubt barbar warriors killed EVERYTIME ALL the defeated males after the victory -
concerning the I-Ean warriors-pastors come from the Steppes into Eastern Europe (Carpathian Bassin and other places too) very often we see them taking the lands needed for their breeding (hills grassy slopes) and not occupying a whole territory - new physical types appeared at some time very quickly in some regions they were absorbed giving a crossing far from in equilibrium as it should have been if they had killed all the male population surrounding them! the Corded Ware people, in the Netherlands, took sometimes the bad sandy lands, taking no advantage over the megalithical people of the shores (Funnelbeaker/Amphores people with a strong heritage from Long Barrows or akin people, surely smart enough themselves) -
I know some people are found of heroic warriors with some sadic tendancies, and sometimes they were like that, but I think the winners when their conquest was total were glad to have some solid male slaves and peasants families; without kill all the males they had just to deprive them of sexual contacts with females and to take these females for themselves (what is egoistic and not to respectuous for these females!) and this occurred surely more than a time, but even like that I suppose this system was not complete...
sure, the today very contrasted distribution of Y-HaploGs compared to mt-DNA HaploGs distribution proves some "male" prerogatives of winners
I've not the time to give my point about other posts (question of R1a and Greeks and so on...) but i'll do soon
good night all of you (night can send some sagacity)

Many IE invaders in Europe lived among the local tribes. They didn't kill them but they didn't mix with them either. They 'protected' the lands of the local tribes who had to obey the IE invaders and probably pay taxes as well. Cattle breeding and trade was for the IE tribes, farming was for the local tribes.
This model was allready used in Usatovo culture 5500 years ago along the Black Sea coast, they had control over Cucuteni-Trypolye people upstream.
The Myceneans applied this model as well.

bicicleur
16-09-14, 09:18
Some questions.
No massive invasion into Sapta Sindhu has been shown, either ancient written texts or archeological evidence ie, horses, weapons, Kurgan burial mounds.
Why does Vedic have only Munda and Dravidian incorporated. An invading proto-PIE language should also show evidence of Proto Kartvelian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartvelian_languages) and Proto Uralic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages) language family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_family) ?
Tocharian is related to Italic/Celtic and was the second to break away after Hittite, before Italic/Celtic/Germanic; they had terms for domesticated pig and agricultural grain. How can these intrusive terms be explained, when the Saka did not have them and yet both groups originated from a common PIE homeland ?

Albanian-Armenian-sometimes Greek could be considered isolate with no other extant language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate)
There is not one single common branch of R1a found among Kosovo Albanians- Armenians-Greeks, yet all three have ANE and R1a in 0-5%. How is this possible if originating from a common PIE homeland?

many questions are - and probably will remain - unanswered
Albanian - Armenian - Greek are IE languages

I suppose you're alluding to the Iranian plateau IE origin theory.
I don't know much about it , but it seems even more problematic to me.
What chronology does this theory propose, and what languages and which haplogroups do they link with it?

Yetos
16-09-14, 15:19
@ bicicleur

The arsenic bronze road is something that no one can deny,
the split from Yamnaa
1, to Pommerania North Europaen languages
2, Istros Cotofeni Vatin Vucocar is a good

the question is Maykob, and Indo Hettit and Arzawa/Assuwa and Greco- Aryan and R1a in Balkans

I try to make my shelf clear,

1. from Maykob to Yamnaa
if Leyla teppe spoke IE and bring them to Maykob and from them pass Yamnaa? or
If maykob did not spoke IE and IEs from steppe learn arsenic bronze mettalurgy and use it?
if any other possible connection

2a The Indo Hettit theory
that is millenium after arsenic bronze road.
so the IE existed already out of India? and enter from the East to minor Asia?
or from the West To outer India?

2b The Arzawa Assuwa case,
or else the language of Troyans.
that is a big story
2b1 if we consider Arzawa as non IE but IEised that makes no problem (troyan could learn IE from hettit)
2b2 But if we consider them as IE and Anatolians that opens new questions
they probably existed before Hettit (Hettit found them), they came from Thrace? or homeland of IE was nearby Leyla teppe? (Zagros mountains, Caspian Iranian shores, South of Caucas etc etc)
Tocharians who were R1a could migrate to steppe much before creating Kurgans
there enters the 3rd question


3 The Greco-Aryan Hypothesis theory,
Homeric the most ancient Fully written and known language is Greco-Aryan in Linguistic field
the Greco-Aryan theory explains well the centum satem split,
if we combine the previous 2b2 problem with the 3rd asking then we see a tottaly different view

4 the R1a in Balkans,
balkans show much diversity of R1a,
we consider it as sink phenomena, what if I reject the sink and start as R1a the balkans?
jsut an academic question, although has good basisconsidering Tocharrians

about Varna necropolis we already had discuused it.


Some more questions,

why the arsenic bronze 'invaders' travel west?

to this we must see the substractum of Europe,
we have cultures like Vinca's and Varna and Pommerania etc
we have many forests, a dark continent full of trees which neollithic farmers cut to make fields!!!!
we have mountains different than urals but simmilar to caucas

so IE possibly enter
1 for rule the already neolithic farmers (a king/warriors class)
2 to find open and early irrigated valleys (created by farmers) for their floaks
3 to find more cooper to make bronze (case of Rudna GLava)

Horse and chariot,
we already had exclude the charriot, now we are at horse,
Neolithic farmers knew bow and arrows,
if you see an early Mycenean/IE panoply (full armor) is too heavy could you wear it above a horse in the sunlight (warm) for a day?
swords vs clubs? and what the hell we find arrows?
and what about stones?
wear an armor, and someone throws a stone of 1 kilo from 5 meters, out of battle!!!!
so what arsenic bronze help 'the invaders'
1 simply to ignore arrows and javelin
2 an arsenic bronze nose is stronger than a copper or stone nose,
simmilar the iron age,


PS
a good question is the Kelts,
From Pomerania to Haalstaat or
From Istros to Haalstaat

PS2
the arsenic bronze road is certain, even by dates
the possible road though Thrace, the Thracian tomp show a nigration though that road, abut also a road from North and East.

Silesian
16-09-14, 15:48
almost all European and Anatolian R1b are L23 + , so that makes only 4 clades : L23*, Z2103, L51* and L11
IMO there are 3 major invasion periods of R1b into Europe/Anatolia :
- Anatolian +/- 6000 years ago
- proto Italic/Celtic/Noridic +/- 5000 years ago , they are L11
- Mycenian, Illyrian, Armenian, Phrygian 4000 - 3000 years ago

It is hard to say what clades are Anatolian and what are Mycenian, Illyrian, Armenian, Phrygian because they settled in the same territoria.

Let's compare R1a.
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif


It should be very easy, since there is only a handful of snp's to choose which are common among all 3 independent 5%< Kosovar Albanians- Smyrna Archaic Greeks[Anatolia]-Armenians I would even add, Latino-Faliscan, and Celtic, but to keep it simple I'll just stick to the original 3.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group
Kosovar Albanians-4.4%-sample 114N
Armenians-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etBNo0638Pw @ 46:48
Greek, Archaic Smyrna-http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

Here are some snp choices from which to choose linking all 3 independent Albanian-Greek-Armenian.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9622/r1acladessnp.jpg

Silesian
16-09-14, 15:54
many questions are - and probably will remain - unanswered
Albanian - Armenian - Greek are IE languages

I suppose you're alluding to the Iranian plateau IE origin theory.
I don't know much about it , but it seems even more problematic to me.
What chronology does this theory propose, and what languages and which haplogroups do they link with it?

I'm only asking simple questions of interest. Since this happened relatively swiftly from one location within a certain time frame, we should be able to see some common traits among these groups leaving their homeland of PIE. For example why would a trail of elaborate Kurgans be found in the Western expansion into the Balkans. However the Eastern expansion into Sapta Sindhu there are 0.? How about some elaborate Hittite kurgans, they were a major power in Anatolia and are credited with some of the old writing? The same source of PIE+kurgans+ horses+weapons+art, should yield the same results ? Is there a reasonable explanation why one side of the migration has kurgans while the other does not. One side has Proto-Italic, Armenian, Albanian, Greek, Celtic. The other Sanskrit, Slavic, Avesta.

bicicleur
17-09-14, 10:32
Let's compare R1a.



I can only make a wild guess :

slavic M458
cimmerians : i don't know
scyths : Z93

bicicleur
17-09-14, 10:35
I'm only asking simple questions of interest. Since this happened relatively swiftly from one location within a certain time frame, we should be able to see some common traits among these groups leaving their homeland of PIE. For example why would a trail of elaborate Kurgans be found in the Western expansion into the Balkans. However the Eastern expansion into Sapta Sindhu there are 0.? How about some elaborate Hittite kurgans, they were a major power in Anatolia and are credited with some of the old writing? The same source of PIE+kurgans+ horses+weapons+art, should yield the same results ? Is there a reasonable explanation why one side of the migration has kurgans while the other does not. One side has Proto-Italic, Armenian, Albanian, Greek, Celtic. The other Sanskrit, Slavic, Avesta.

time frame : 4000 BC to 1500 BC , this is 2500 years
there are different tribes, the steppe peoples were not united
habits change while on the move

bicicleur
17-09-14, 11:00
@ bicicleur

The arsenic bronze road is something that no one can deny,
the split from Yamnaa
1, to Pommerania North Europaen languages
2, Istros Cotofeni Vatin Vucocar is a good

the question is Maykob, and Indo Hettit and Arzawa/Assuwa and Greco- Aryan and R1a in Balkans

I try to make my shelf clear,

1. from Maykob to Yamnaa
if Leyla teppe spoke IE and bring them to Maykob and from them pass Yamnaa? or
If maykob did not spoke IE and IEs from steppe learn arsenic bronze mettalurgy and use it?
if any other possible connection

2a The Indo Hettit theory
that is millenium after arsenic bronze road.
so the IE existed already out of India? and enter from the East to minor Asia?
or from the West To outer India?

2b The Arzawa Assuwa case,
or else the language of Troyans.
that is a big story
2b1 if we consider Arzawa as non IE but IEised that makes no problem (troyan could learn IE from hettit)
2b2 But if we consider them as IE and Anatolians that opens new questions
they probably existed before Hettit (Hettit found them), they came from Thrace? or homeland of IE was nearby Leyla teppe? (Zagros mountains, Caspian Iranian shores, South of Caucas etc etc)
Tocharians who were R1a could migrate to steppe much before creating Kurgans
there enters the 3rd question


3 The Greco-Aryan Hypothesis theory,
Homeric the most ancient Fully written and known language is Greco-Aryan in Linguistic field
the Greco-Aryan theory explains well the centum satem split,
if we combine the previous 2b2 problem with the 3rd asking then we see a tottaly different view

4 the R1a in Balkans,
balkans show much diversity of R1a,
we consider it as sink phenomena, what if I reject the sink and start as R1a the balkans?
jsut an academic question, although has good basisconsidering Tocharrians

about Varna necropolis we already had discuused it.


Some more questions,

why the arsenic bronze 'invaders' travel west?

to this we must see the substractum of Europe,
we have cultures like Vinca's and Varna and Pommerania etc
we have many forests, a dark continent full of trees which neollithic farmers cut to make fields!!!!
we have mountains different than urals but simmilar to caucas

so IE possibly enter
1 for rule the already neolithic farmers (a king/warriors class)
2 to find open and early irrigated valleys (created by farmers) for their floaks
3 to find more cooper to make bronze (case of Rudna GLava)

Horse and chariot,
we already had exclude the charriot, now we are at horse,
Neolithic farmers knew bow and arrows,
if you see an early Mycenean/IE panoply (full armor) is too heavy could you wear it above a horse in the sunlight (warm) for a day?
swords vs clubs? and what the hell we find arrows?
and what about stones?
wear an armor, and someone throws a stone of 1 kilo from 5 meters, out of battle!!!!
so what arsenic bronze help 'the invaders'
1 simply to ignore arrows and javelin
2 an arsenic bronze nose is stronger than a copper or stone nose,
simmilar the iron age,


PS
a good question is the Kelts,
From Pomerania to Haalstaat or
From Istros to Haalstaat

PS2
the arsenic bronze road is certain, even by dates
the possible road though Thrace, the Thracian tomp show a nigration though that road, abut also a road from North and East.

1st split Anatolion R1b, 4000 BC to Balkans
only 3000 BC move to Anatolia, founding Troy by Luwians
later Hitites conquer Hati country and found their empire

2nd split Tochar R1b, eastwarts on the steppe from Ural to Altaï Mts and even till Mongolia
3rd split 3000 BC from Yamna to Corded ware R1a north & central Europe, Baltic & Slavic languages

4th split 3000 BC proto Italic, Celtic, Nordic (Germanic) to Balkans
split into :
- Bell Beaker, only traders, no mass migration
- Wissix culture, Unétice culture, Nordic Bronze
- Nordic Bronze becomes Germanic, Unétice becomes Celtic & Italic

5th split 2200 BC : from Greco Aryans, near south Ural :
- R1b move west : Mycenians, Illyrians, Phrygians, Armenians
- Srubnaya culture on the Pontic steppe, become later Cimmerians
- R1a Indo-Iranian, split to Indic and Iranian
Indic move south : Andronovo conquers BMAC culture, Mittani (warriors), Aryans to India (no warriors : cattle herders)
Iranian move east , destroy Tocharians
Later Iranian become Yuezhi, Saka, Scyth, Sarmath, Pers, Medes, ..
Iranian tribes destroyed by Xiongnu, Huns, Turkic tribes

R1a in Balkan : Slav, Cimmerians, Scyths ?

1. from Maykob to Yamnaa
if Leyla teppe spoke IE and bring them to Maykob and from them pass Yamnaa? or NO
If maykob did not spoke IE and IEs from steppe learn arsenic bronze mettalurgy and use it? YES
IE have horses, Leyla Tepe not
Maykop depend on trade with Uruk
When Uruk is atacked by Semites, Maykop finishes

pottery : 2 types :

- coarse cooking pots : Xianrengdon China, 20000 years old, to east Siberia 13000 years ago, to Pontic Steppe 9000 years ago
- storage yars : Middle east pottery Levant, Mesopotamia, Cucuteni-Tripolye

IE people, Bell Beaker, Corded ware use Xianrengdon pottery style

Yetos
17-09-14, 12:52
1st split Anatolion R1b, 4000 BC to Balkans
only 3000 BC move to Anatolia, founding Troy by Luwians
later Hitites conquer Hati country and found their empire

2nd split Tochar R1b, eastwarts on the steppe from Ural to Altaï Mts and even till Mongolia
3rd split 3000 BC from Yamna to Corded ware R1a north & central Europe, Baltic & Slavic languages

4th split 3000 BC proto Italic, Celtic, Nordic (Germanic) to Balkans
split into :
- Bell Beaker, only traders, no mass migration
- Wissix culture, Unétice culture, Nordic Bronze
- Nordic Bronze becomes Germanic, Unétice becomes Celtic & Italic

5th split 2200 BC : from Greco Aryans, near south Ural :
- R1b move west : Mycenians, Illyrians, Phrygians, Armenians
- Srubnaya culture on the Pontic steppe, become later Cimmerians
- R1a Indo-Iranian, split to Indic and Iranian
Indic move south : Andronovo conquers BMAC culture, Mittani (warriors), Aryans to India (no warriors : cattle herders)
Iranian move east , destroy Tocharians
Later Iranian become Yuezhi, Saka, Scyth, Sarmath, Pers, Medes, ..
Iranian tribes destroyed by Xiongnu, Huns, Turkic tribes

R1a in Balkan : Slav, Cimmerians, Scyths ?

1. from Maykob to Yamnaa
if Leyla teppe spoke IE and bring them to Maykob and from them pass Yamnaa? or NO
If maykob did not spoke IE and IEs from steppe learn arsenic bronze mettalurgy and use it? YES
IE have horses, Leyla Tepe not
Maykop depend on trade with Uruk
When Uruk is atacked by Semites, Maykop finishes

pottery : 2 types :

- coarse cooking pots : Xianrengdon China, 20000 years old, to east Siberia 13000 years ago, to Pontic Steppe 9000 years ago
- storage yars : Middle east pottery Levant, Mesopotamia, Cucuteni-Tripolye

IE people, Bell Beaker, Corded ware use Xianrengdon pottery style

allow me to dissagree in tocharians,
from what I know tocharian mummies were R1a certified,

2nd the Troyans hettits and Arzawa,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/37536/Arzawa

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsMiddEast/AnatoliaArzawa.htm

the arzawa appear before Luwins and before Hettit and all Anatolian languages
now if spoke non IE then is ok they are the Pelasgians we seak, possible connection with Hatti
but if spoke IE then we find IE in minor Asia much before hettits and All Anatolian languages
meaning either proto IE existed in Minor Asia and Balkans before the steppe people,
or Arzawa came from Danub after the arsenic bronze via Thrace to minor Asia which is not a testified road,
Arzawa pre-exist the hatti and Hettit.

now if Arzawa spoke IE
1 connected R1a diversities in Balkans and Tocharian R1a as also Arzawa and Varna we probably have another theory but considering R1a as sink phenomena we reject it
2 The pre-existance of Arzawa to Hatti And hettit could mean that greco-Aryan existed in minor Asia much earlier than we think, meaning that possible homeland was south of caucas in areas from Agean to Caspian sea, (Zgros mountains, Iranian shores, Laz area etc)
3 if we admit that Arzawa came from Danube after the arsenic bronze 'invasion' they left behind linguistic trails, meaning they either followed the Mycenean way, or they followed the Thracian way, so you understand what that means. especially with Thracian tomps,
4 the possibilty that Thracians and myceneans came from minor Asia before Hettits? unkown but possible considering Arzawa and Thracian tomps

The myceneans show minor Asia R1b but cultury follow the Vatin stop of IE to south is a complicated

Medes-Aryan is another case, Homer spoke a language that is proto-Greek but very relative with Aryan
I think Xenophon connects them with Colhis people (west caucas Pontos, Laz, S Georgian area) but not hettit

to make my shlf more clear
if Arzawa were not IE then is ok possibly we speak about pelasgians and pre-Etruscans
if Arzawa we IE then IE exists in Anatolia before Hettit which means
Anatolian IE could be older than Steppe IE
Anatolian IE came either from Greece or from Thrace

simmilar is tocharian who were R1a
if we consider that moved after Hettit 'invasion' then Anatolian IE is later than Yamnaa
but if earlier then?
can you imagine if tocharian movement is around 6 000 years from now????

bicicleur
17-09-14, 14:01
allow me to dissagree in tocharians,
from what I know tocharian mummies were R1a certified,



5th split 2200 BC : from Greco Aryans, near south Ural :
- R1b move west : Mycenians, Illyrians, Phrygians, Armenians
- Srubnaya culture on the Pontic steppe, become later Cimmerians
- R1a Indo-Iranian, split to Indic and Iranian
Indic move south : Andronovo conquers BMAC culture, Mittani (warriors), Aryans to India (no warriors : cattle herders)
Iranian move east , destroy Tocharians

'tocharian mummies' are not Tochar, they are 1800 BC and Iranian, found in eastern end of Tarim Basin, near Gansu corridor, silkroad
some Tochars fled to western part of Tarim Basin
there they found 6th century Tochar writing in a Budhist monastery
20 % of today western part of Tarim Basin people are R1b

for 2nd remark, I'll check later

Silesian
17-09-14, 20:02
I can only make a wild guess :

slavic M458
cimmerians : i don't know
scyths : Z93

R1a-M458+, CTS11962+, L1029+
6624


Albanian-Kosovo/Greek/Armenian, all share R1b-Z2103>R1b-CTS-7822+R1b-CTS-9219+[2 out of 3] with Armenian probable R1b-CTS-9219+

6625

oriental
17-09-14, 20:31
Don't forget R1a Hungarian do not speak IE and R1b Basques don't speak IE. IE might have come from a tribe, or tribes, with a mixture of R1a, J2 and E. J2 seems to be present in many IE people.

bicicleur
17-09-14, 21:57
R1a-M458+, CTS11962+, L1029+
6624


Albanian-Kosovo/Greek/Armenian, all share R1b-Z2103>R1b-CTS-7822+R1b-CTS-9219+[2 out of 3] with Armenian probable R1b-CTS-9219+

6625

interesting

what is CTS9219 ? is it a subclade of CTS7822 ?

bicicleur
17-09-14, 22:06
Don't forget R1a Hungarian do not speak IE and R1b Basques don't speak IE. IE might have come from a tribe, or tribes, with a mixture of R1a, J2 and E. J2 seems to be present in many IE people.

I still beleive the origin of IE speakers were R1a and R1b-P297 or R1b-M269 on the Pontic Steppe.
But some tribes change language sometimes.
Look at Turkmenistan, predominately R1b but speaking Turkic language.
Hungarian language is suposed to be spread by a N1c1-M46 tribe invading Hungary around 9th century, leaving the language but not their DNA trace.

bicicleur
17-09-14, 22:28
2nd the Troyans hettits and Arzawa,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/37536/Arzawa

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsMiddEast/AnatoliaArzawa.htm

the arzawa appear before Luwins and before Hettit and all Anatolian languages
now if spoke non IE then is ok they are the Pelasgians we seak, possible connection with Hatti
but if spoke IE then we find IE in minor Asia much before hettits and All Anatolian languages
meaning either proto IE existed in Minor Asia and Balkans before the steppe people,
or Arzawa came from Danub after the arsenic bronze via Thrace to minor Asia which is not a testified road,
Arzawa pre-exist the hatti and Hettit.

now if Arzawa spoke IE
1 connected R1a diversities in Balkans and Tocharian R1a as also Arzawa and Varna we probably have another theory but considering R1a as sink phenomena we reject it
2 The pre-existance of Arzawa to Hatti And hettit could mean that greco-Aryan existed in minor Asia much earlier than we think, meaning that possible homeland was south of caucas in areas from Agean to Caspian sea, (Zgros mountains, Iranian shores, Laz area etc)
3 if we admit that Arzawa came from Danube after the arsenic bronze 'invasion' they left behind linguistic trails, meaning they either followed the Mycenean way, or they followed the Thracian way, so you understand what that means. especially with Thracian tomps,
4 the possibilty that Thracians and myceneans came from minor Asia before Hettits? unkown but possible considering Arzawa and Thracian tomps

The myceneans show minor Asia R1b but cultury follow the Vatin stop of IE to south is a complicated

Medes-Aryan is another case, Homer spoke a language that is proto-Greek but very relative with Aryan
I think Xenophon connects them with Colhis people (west caucas Pontos, Laz, S Georgian area) but not hettit

to make my shlf more clear
if Arzawa were not IE then is ok possibly we speak about pelasgians and pre-Etruscans
if Arzawa we IE then IE exists in Anatolia before Hettit which means
Anatolian IE could be older than Steppe IE
Anatolian IE came either from Greece or from Thrace


if we consider that moved after Hettit 'invasion' then Anatolian IE is later than Yamnaa
but if earlier then?
can you imagine if tocharian movement is around 6 000 years from now????

Anatolian is the oldest IE language branch , before Tocharian which is 5500 years old

So 6000 years old for Anatolian is realistic.
But earliest writings in Anatolian are only some 3600 years old.
We can only guess where they have been 2400 years in between.

I believe what is written here in Eurpedia about R1b, Proto-Anatolians were responsible for destruction of Gumelnita and Karanovo towns, and replacement by Cernavoda and Usatovo cultures,
with later invasions into Anatolia.

Luwians, Carians, Lycians, Lydians and Hitites all descend from the same 6000 year old Proto-Anatolians.
Luwians would have founded Troy 5000 years ago.
Arzawa would also have been Luwians.

R1a in Balkans, I allready told I think they arrived later than R1b, less than 3000 years ago.

Silesian here says R1a-M458+, CTS11962+, L1029+ , which IMO means Slavic.

Yetos
18-09-14, 01:21
5th split 2200 BC : from Greco Aryans, near south Ural :
- R1b move west : Mycenians, Illyrians, Phrygians, Armenians
- Srubnaya culture on the Pontic steppe, become later Cimmerians
- R1a Indo-Iranian, split to Indic and Iranian
Indic move south : Andronovo conquers BMAC culture, Mittani (warriors), Aryans to India (no warriors : cattle herders)
Iranian move east , destroy Tocharians

'tocharian mummies' are not Tochar, they are 1800 BC and Iranian, found in eastern end of Tarim Basin, near Gansu corridor, silkroad
some Tochars fled to western part of Tarim Basin
there they found 6th century Tochar writing in a Budhist monastery
20 % of today western part of Tarim Basin people are R1b

for 2nd remark, I'll check later

ok but that does not mean that these mumies were not R1a, and if Iranian spoke IE,
Iran does not belong to Eurasian steppe? or does?

Phrygian were Thracians, they moved from Balkans to Anatolia much later around 900-700 BC around 2700 years from now
If myceneans and especially Illyrians moved from minor Asia to Europe means that Celts also followed that way,
meaning that Celts did not follow the arsenic bronze road, but the Thrace/Greece road to central Europe
Myceneans is complicated but Illyrians are considered as Celtic/paraceltic branch

I mean the arsenic bronze road is 5500 years from now,
if I accept the above then celts did enter with that wave, and only balts Slavs and germans, what about Thracians?

what I want is to describe me the roads, who followed the Arsenic bronze?
who enter minor Asia and where they go
and if Anatolian pre-exist Arsenic bronze or not? Thracian or not? Yamnaa or Not?

Alan
18-09-14, 04:50
almost all European and Anatolian R1b are L23 + , so that makes only 4 clades : L23*, Z2103, L51* and L11
IMO there are 3 major invasion periods of R1b into Europe/Anatolia :
- Anatolian +/- 6000 years ago
- proto Italic/Celtic/Noridic +/- 5000 years ago , they are L11
- Mycenian, Illyrian, Armenian, Phrygian 4000 - 3000 years ago

It is hard to say what clades are Anatolian and what are Mycenian, Illyrian, Armenian, Phrygian because they settled in the same territoria.

Indeed most R1b in Anatolia and among Armenians is L23+ so allot of it might be back migration in form of Phrygians.

But there is some significant percentage of R1b- m343 in Western Asia. m343 was found at frequency of 13% among Kurds in Kazakhstan who were deported there by Stalin.

And there is also R1b-V88


R1b* (that is R1b with no subsequent distinguishing SNP mutations) is extremely rare. The only population yet recorded with a definite significant proportion of R1b* are the Kurds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd) of southeastern Kazakhstan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan) with 13%.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Myres2010-7) However, more recently, a large study of Y-chromosome variation in Iran, revealed R1b* as high as 4.3% among Persian sub-populations.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-18) In a study of Jordan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan) it was found that no less than 20 out of all 146 men tested (13.7%), including most notably 20 out of 45 men tested from the Dead Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea) area, were positive for M173 (R1) but negative for P25 and M269, mentioned above, as well as the R1a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1a) markers SRY10831.2 and M17, a study indicates that they are all R1b2-v88 [2] (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/suppinfo/ejhg2010146s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/abs/ejhg2010146a.html).[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-flores2005-19)

R1b* origin seems to be connected to Western Indo_iranian Speakers too since m343 was found in Kurds and some Persians so far.

Silesian
18-09-14, 07:35
Indeed most R1b in Anatolia and among Armenians is L23+ so allot of it might be back migration in form of Phrygians.

But there is some significant percentage of R1b- m343 in Western Asia. m343 was found at frequency of 13% among Kurds in Kazakhstan who were deported there by Stalin.

And there is also R1b-V88



R1b* origin seems to be connected to Western Indo_iranian Speakers too since m343 was found in Kurds and some Persians so far.

R1b-M343* Kurds and Iranians take top spot.

2x R1b-M343 (Kurdish village Dogukoy*/Central Anatolia in Gokcumen et al., 2011)
1x R1b-M343 (Iranian Kurds in Grugni et al., 2012)
13x R1b-M343 (Iraqi Kurds in Stenersen et al., 2004; based on Athey's Haplogroup (http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5a/hapest5.htm)
4XR1b-M343 Uzbek Jawzjan
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.ca/2013_10_01_archive.html
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0076748 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252) table s7

Silesian
18-09-14, 07:52
interesting

what is CTS9219 ? is it a subclade of CTS7822 ?
Yes, R1b-Z2103-CTS7822-CTS9219
6628

bicicleur
18-09-14, 08:50
Indeed most R1b in Anatolia and among Armenians is L23+ so allot of it might be back migration in form of Phrygians.

But there is some significant percentage of R1b- m343 in Western Asia. m343 was found at frequency of 13% among Kurds in Kazakhstan who were deported there by Stalin.

And there is also R1b-V88



R1b* origin seems to be connected to Western Indo_iranian Speakers too since m343 was found in Kurds and some Persians so far.

My guess :

R1b comes from Siberia : Lake Bajkal - Altaï Mts area (see Mal'ta DNA)
During ice age they came to north Afghanistan / north Iran - caves in north Afghanistan were inhabited since 22000 years ago
After ice age they split :

M335 stay SW of Caspian Sea , maybe they were the 'Gutians' who conquered the empire of Sargon of Akkad
V88 stay in Anatolia till the invention of dairy products in Anatolia 9000 years ago , then they move with cattle to Africa
P297 do not become farmer or herder, they remain hunter/gatherer and move north to Pontic steppe , they fish in the rivers and hunt horses

R1b-P297 and R1a domesticate the horse 6500 years ago and both speak the same language : proto-IE

bicicleur
18-09-14, 12:16
ok but that does not mean that these mumies were not R1a, and if Iranian spoke IE,
Iran does not belong to Eurasian steppe? or does?

Phrygian were Thracians, they moved from Balkans to Anatolia much later around 900-700 BC around 2700 years from now
If myceneans and especially Illyrians moved from minor Asia to Europe means that Celts also followed that way,
meaning that Celts did not follow the arsenic bronze road, but the Thrace/Greece road to central Europe
Myceneans is complicated but Illyrians are considered as Celtic/paraceltic branch

I mean the arsenic bronze road is 5500 years from now,
if I accept the above then celts did enter with that wave, and only balts Slavs and germans, what about Thracians?

what I want is to describe me the roads, who followed the Arsenic bronze?
who enter minor Asia and where they go
and if Anatolian pre-exist Arsenic bronze or not? Thracian or not? Yamnaa or Not?

Iranian people ruled the steppe for 2000 years, from 4000 years ago till 2000 years ago, then Turkisch tribes toke over.

I see now, bronze was introduced during Cotofeni and Ezero culture.
This was in the steppe, in Balkan and also Aegean.
Is this the arsenic bronze road you mean?
In western and central Europe there was no bronze, only few arsenic bronze with Bell Beaker (5-4000 years ago), and real bronze since 4200 years ago with tin from Cornwall.
I suppose bronze came from trade. Usatovo were traders since 5500 years ago, trade with Pontic Steppe and Aegean, probably also Balkan.
1st invasion of steppe people in Balkan was 6200-6000 years ago, 2nd wave was 5000 years ago.

Yetos
18-09-14, 12:21
My guess :

R1b comes from Siberia : Lake Bajkal - Altaï Mts area (see Mal'ta DNA)
During ice age they came to north Afghanistan / north Iran - caves in north Afghanistan were inhabited since 22000 years ago
After ice age they split :

M335 stay SW of Caspian Sea , maybe they were the 'Gutians' who conquered the empire of Sargon of Akkad
V88 stay in Anatolia till the invention of dairy products in Anatolia 9000 years ago , then they move with cattle to Africa
P297 do not become farmer or herder, they remain hunter/gatherer and move north to Pontic steppe , they fish in the rivers and hunt horses

R1b-P297 and R1a domesticate the horse 6500 years ago and both speak the same language : proto-IE

So if R1b was from Altaic was carrier of Altaic Mark,
R1b migration to Afganistan gave him also GeDrosian,
that is a good explanation why R1b has Gedrosian and R1a not,
but Altaic component in population where R1b is in Europe has not the analogy of Gedrosian,
we find less Altaic in West Europes almost 0 in South Europe but he find full Gedrosian
correcrt if I am wrong but the biggest Altaic is In ireland and Albania about 14%
and in many other areas is 5-8% and in Greece almost 0.

Sile
18-09-14, 12:33
My guess :

R1b comes from Siberia : Lake Bajkal - Altaï Mts area (see Mal'ta DNA)
During ice age they came to north Afghanistan / north Iran - caves in north Afghanistan were inhabited since 22000 years ago
After ice age they split :

M335 stay SW of Caspian Sea , maybe they were the 'Gutians' who conquered the empire of Sargon of Akkad
V88 stay in Anatolia till the invention of dairy products in Anatolia 9000 years ago , then they move with cattle to Africa
P297 do not become farmer or herder, they remain hunter/gatherer and move north to Pontic steppe , they fish in the rivers and hunt horses

R1b-P297 and R1a domesticate the horse 6500 years ago and both speak the same language : proto-IE

Can you not claim mal'ta boy as R1 or R2 ,you are being silly, he is R* .............* means no subclades , means a dead line, means he belongs to no R anything

look up what * means in human genetics

Yetos
18-09-14, 12:52
Iranian people ruled the steppe for 2000 years, from 4000 years ago till 2000 years ago, then Turkisch tribes toke over.

I see now, bronze was introduced during Cotofeni and Ezero culture.
This was in the steppe, in Balkan and also Aegean.
Is this the arsenic bronze road you mean?
In western and central Europe there was no bronze, only few arsenic bronze with Bell Beaker (5-4000 years ago), and real bronze since 4200 years ago with tin from Cornwall.
I suppose bronze came from trade. Usatovo were traders since 5500 years ago, trade with Pontic Steppe and Aegean, probably also Balkan.
1st invasion of steppe people in Balkan was 6200-6000 years ago, 2nd wave was 5000 years ago.

the arsenic bronze which is a fact.

there are 2 known methods to make bronze in antique,
one is the tin and copper the othaer is arsenic and copper,

the copper was known much before, at least 1500 years before,
the mix of copper with Arsenic is found in Maykob, from there we see it at Yamnaa, and from there we have the destruction of Vinca Varna etc
from Yamnaa next arsenic bronze we find is Cotofeni next is Vatin next is Vucocar but stops there no evidence of Arsenic bronze west the same period, meaning the stop there, and after centuries decide to expand further
that is a certified road from archaiology that is marked by arsenic bronze evidence, estimated around 3-3500 Bc about 5-5500 years from now,
by that road we know Myceneans probably split from vatin and Thracian from Cotofeni and exchnge or adopt local cultures, or 'rule' upon them if you like,
for example the golden masks are found primary in Myceneans and Thracians not in rest IE, which means they adopted from Varna,
there is possibility that Even Egyptian Masks originated in Balkans even Pyramids comparing Mastabas
from the proto-Aigyptian buring rituals to Tut's burial rituals we see a lot of changes,

so the question here is if IE were spoken in Maykob where arsenic bronze was found, and from there pass to Yamnaa,
or if maykob's bronze passing to Yamnaa drop to the hands of steppe people
or if maykob was steppe people,

I mean
IEans
leyla teppe maykob yamnaa arsenic bronze road? IE speakers not steppe people
Leyla teppe maykob Yamnaa etc IE speakers but steppe people
Leyla teppe maykob (yamnaa?) not IE speakers lost technology to steppe IE (yamnaa?) people who enter Cotofeni

that is the big question with leyla teppe connection with Maykob
you realize the weight of 1rst and 2nd choice

bicicleur
18-09-14, 14:00
Can you not claim mal'ta boy as R1 or R2 ,you are being silly, he is R* .............* means no subclades , means a dead line, means he belongs to no R anything

look up what * means in human genetics

yes, Mal'ta is a dead line , just like most , Loschbourg and Motola are dead lines too , survivers are only a few lines.

nevertheless Mal'ta and R1 and R2 are brothers, all with the same father R
R2 came from Siberia too, they invaded north India and Pakistan during ice age
If Mal'ta was in Siberia during ice age, and R2 came from Siberia during ice age, where is R1 coming from most likely?

bicicleur
18-09-14, 14:16
the arsenic bronze which is a fact.

there are 2 known methods to make bronze in antique,
one is the tin and copper the othaer is arsenic and copper,

the copper was known much before, at least 1500 years before,
the mix of copper with Arsenic is found in Maykob, from there we see it at Yamnaa, and from there we have the destruction of Vinca Varna etc
from Yamnaa next arsenic bronze we find is Cotofeni next is Vatin next is Vucocar but stops there no evidence of Arsenic bronze west the same period, meaning the stop there, and after centuries decide to expand further
that is a certified road from archaiology that is marked by arsenic bronze evidence, estimated around 3-3500 Bc about 5-5500 years from now,
by that road we know Myceneans probably split from vatin and Thracian from Cotofeni and exchnge or adopt local cultures, or 'rule' upon them if you like,
for example the golden masks are found primary in Myceneans and Thracians not in rest IE, which means they adopted from Varna,
there is possibility that Even Egyptian Masks originated in Balkans even Pyramids comparing Mastabas
from the proto-Aigyptian buring rituals to Tut's burial rituals we see a lot of changes,

so the question here is if IE were spoken in Maykob where arsenic bronze was found, and from there pass to Yamnaa,
or if maykob's bronze passing to Yamnaa drop to the hands of steppe people
or if maykob was steppe people,

I mean
IEans
leyla teppe maykob yamnaa arsenic bronze road? IE speakers not steppe people
Leyla teppe maykob Yamnaa etc IE speakers but steppe people
Leyla teppe maykob (yamnaa?) not IE speakers lost technology to steppe IE (yamnaa?) people who enter Cotofeni

that is the big question with leyla teppe connection with Maykob
you realize the weight of 1rst and 2nd choice

we cannot know for sure
but i think proto-IE were in the Pontic Steppe some 6500 years ago
they learned about arsenic copper from Maykop, Maykop were not IE, so Leyla Tepe were not IE either
i think they used special ores for arsenic copper, with arsenic and copper allready mixed in the ores, and with special knowledge how to melt these ores

Yamnaa, and from there we have the destruction of Vinca Varna etc
i think this is the proto-Anatolian

i think Mycenians etc came much later, from Greco-Aryan split south of Ural, some 4200 years ago.

Yetos
18-09-14, 15:47
we cannot know for sure
but i think proto-IE were in the Pontic Steppe some 6500 years ago
they learned about arsenic copper from Maykop, Maykop were not IE, so Leyla Tepe were not IE either
i think they used special ores for arsenic copper, with arsenic and copper allready mixed in the ores, and with special knowledge how to melt these ores

Yamnaa, and from there we have the destruction of Vinca Varna etc
i think this is the proto-Anatolian

i think Mycenians etc came much later, from Greco-Aryan split south of Ural, some 4200 years ago.

you see, at least personally for me, that is the problem,
we know the 'arsenic bronze invasion' we know genetically who and when did it, but we can not certify.
Kurgans, of Gibutas fantastic theory, but when we discover Varna and also the possibilities of Tocharian many arguements or disagree created.
maykob as start point, a good starting point, but leyla teppe discoveries gives another possibility

same is with Theories,
renfrew hypothesis was good as neolithic farmers expand, but lacks in mettalurgy,
for example the word copper Κυπρος or Bronze is common among IE
meaning that either renfrew is wrong, either copper/bronze was acepted by all with same name,
to that only a good linguist can help, I mean if follows the aspiration of PIE to modern languages or
is same and accepted by all 'daughters' of IE by for instance a 'commercial name'
for example the word 'status' or 'economy' or 'computer' are modern words but their origin is certified and adopted as 'international Lingua franga'
in such case Renfrew can continue,
but in case of copper/bronze is like word 'goat' or 'mother' wich are primary IE and follow the evolution and aspirations of 'daughter languages' Renfrew is rejected

on the other hand,
if a country rich in R1b which we consider as IE
has caucasian % small, Altaic % very small, and Gedrosian % Very high, then, I personally, assume that Homeland of IE language could be middle East and Iran, than Altaic mountains.
nomatter if R1b genetical home is Altaic mountains,
in such case the question Anatolian vs Indo-Hettit vs Arsenic bronze can give many varriants as possible truth answers

etc etc.

Sile
18-09-14, 20:20
yes, Mal'ta is a dead line , just like most , Loschbourg and Motola are dead lines too , survivers are only a few lines.

nevertheless Mal'ta and R1 and R2 are brothers, all with the same father R
R2 came from Siberia too, they invaded north India and Pakistan during ice age
If Mal'ta was in Siberia during ice age, and R2 came from Siberia during ice age, where is R1 coming from most likely?

No they are not brothers...only brothers for mal'ta are people found with R* marker.
All his Ma-1 markings could have resulted in any 5 different haplogroups. geneticists just selected R* as the most appropriate .
he is over 70 SNPs away from R1 and over 260 SNPs away from R2 ..............anyone who tries to tell you he is related to R1a or R1b is tricking you

Maybe you need to concentrate on stuttgart boy, where the latest papers classify him as Bergamo/Etruscan type and no longer sardinian/basque type

bicicleur
18-09-14, 20:21
you see, at least personally for me, that is the problem,
we know the 'arsenic bronze invasion' we know genetically who and when did it, but we can not certify.
Kurgans, of Gibutas fantastic theory, but when we discover Varna and also the possibilities of Tocharian many arguements or disagree created.
maykob as start point, a good starting point, but leyla teppe discoveries gives another possibility

same is with Theories,
renfrew hypothesis was good as neolithic farmers expand, but lacks in mettalurgy,
for example the word copper Κυπρος or Bronze is common among IE
meaning that either renfrew is wrong, either copper/bronze was acepted by all with same name,
to that only a good linguist can help, I mean if follows the aspiration of PIE to modern languages or
is same and accepted by all 'daughters' of IE by for instance a 'commercial name'
for example the word 'status' or 'economy' or 'computer' are modern words but their origin is certified and adopted as 'international Lingua franga'
in such case Renfrew can continue,
but in case of copper/bronze is like word 'goat' or 'mother' wich are primary IE and follow the evolution and aspirations of 'daughter languages' Renfrew is rejected

on the other hand,
if a country rich in R1b which we consider as IE
has caucasian % small, Altaic % very small, and Gedrosian % Very high, then, I personally, assume that Homeland of IE language could be middle East and Iran, than Altaic mountains.
nomatter if R1b genetical home is Altaic mountains,
in such case the question Anatolian vs Indo-Hettit vs Arsenic bronze can give many varriants as possible truth answers

etc etc.


the weakest part of the renfrew hypothesis is ancient y DNA in Europe
no R1a/R1b found in neolithic Europe, earliest is bronze age

bicicleur
18-09-14, 20:43
No they are not brothers...only brothers for mal'ta are people found with R* marker.
All his Ma-1 markings could have resulted in any 5 different haplogroups. geneticists just selected R* as the most appropriate .
he is over 70 SNPs away from R1 and over 260 SNPs away from R2 ..............anyone who tries to tell you he is related to R1a or R1b is tricking you

Maybe you need to concentrate on stuttgart boy, where the latest papers classify him as Bergamo/Etruscan type and no longer sardinian/basque type



70 SNPs away from R1 and over 260 SNPs away from R2
are these SNPs in the Y-DNA?
out of how many SNPs checked?

MA-1 is 24000 years old
split from R* is estimated 35000 years ago

split R1 - R2 is estimated 32000 years ago

... tentative info from limited number of SNPs checked

Aberdeen
18-09-14, 22:22
the weakest part of the renfrew hypothesis is ancient y DNA in Europe
no R1a/R1b found in neolithic Europe, earliest is bronze age

Actually, half of the Corded Ware Y haploytpes successfully tested for were R1a and both Bell Beaker Y haplotypes successfully tested for were R1b. I know that some people think that because no Y haplotypes have ever been successfully tested for for Bell Beaker folk in Spain or Ireland, this somehow proves that the Bell Beaker folk couldn't have been R1b. But the Corded Ware folk appear to have been ANE. Modern Basque and Sardinian R1b folk aren't ANE, and it doesn't seem that Bell Beaker folk were.

Yetos
18-09-14, 23:33
sorry mishandlle

bicicleur
18-09-14, 23:41
Actually, half of the Corded Ware Y haploytpes successfully tested for were R1a and both Bell Beaker Y haplotypes successfully tested for were R1b. I know that some people think that because no Y haplotypes have ever been successfully tested for for Bell Beaker folk in Spain or Ireland, this somehow proves that the Bell Beaker folk couldn't have been R1b. But the Corded Ware folk appear to have been ANE. Modern Basque and Sardinian R1b folk aren't ANE, and it doesn't seem that Bell Beaker folk were.

you could classify Corded Ware as late neolithic, but it doesn't support the renfrew hypothesis, because contrary to earlier neolithic arrivals in Europe, Corded Ware originated on the Pontic Steppe and not in Anatolia

as for Bell Beaker, origins and language are not known
IMO Bell Beaker were R1b , and from Pontic Steppe origin , I believe they were traders and a prominent minority among other folks in Europe who didn't impose their own language, but as good traders were multilingual

Sardinians aren't ANE , does it make Sardinian R1b not ANE either ?
there are 2 types R1b in Sardinia : R1b-M269 (I guess mostly Celtic) and R1b-V88, 2 entirley different clades

since it is known that I1 was involved in early neolithic Europe, defintion of EEF/WHG/ANE seems very confusing

Silesian
19-09-14, 18:31
you could classify Corded Ware as late neolithic, but it doesn't support the renfrew hypothesis, because contrary to earlier neolithic arrivals in Europe, Corded Ware originated on the Pontic Steppe and not in Anatolia
R1b1a2a2d1 -Turkmenistan, Russia,Poland, North Caucasus, Armenia,Albania,Greece.

Potentia
09-09-15, 02:31
I always thought that they originated in SouthWest Russia?

MOESAN
11-09-15, 18:31
you could classify Corded Ware as late neolithic, but it doesn't support the renfrew hypothesis, because contrary to earlier neolithic arrivals in Europe, Corded Ware originated on the Pontic Steppe and not in Anatolia

as for Bell Beaker, origins and language are not known
IMO Bell Beaker were R1b , and from Pontic Steppe origin , I believe they were traders and a prominent minority among other folks in Europe who didn't impose their own language, but as good traders were multilingual

Sardinians aren't ANE , does it make Sardinian R1b not ANE either ?
there are 2 types R1b in Sardinia : R1b-M269 (I guess mostly Celtic) and R1b-V88, 2 entirley different clades

since it is known that I1 was involved in early neolithic Europe, defintion of EEF/WHG/ANE seems very confusing


I agree for the most - just a detail: are we sure that Y-I1 people took a consequent part in Early Neolithic? I think we have only one at this date? If I'm out of date, do make me know it - thanks beforehand; and even if rough, I don't think EEF/WHG/ANE are a so bad beginning to help to understand things.