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Theodorik
14-09-14, 18:29
Religion and Family Prevent Some Mental Illness
At present, there is no cure for mental illness. Mental health treatment actually makes patients worse over the long term than no treatment at all.
On the other hand, traditional religious and social values and strong families do reduce the incidence, severity, and duration of mental illness. And, these things are free.
Religion Makes People Happier
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101207091802.htm
Spirituality Protects Against Depression
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081023120228.htm
Married With Children Key To Happiness
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091027101420.htm
Brain Study Shows Thinking About God Reduces Stress
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100804110337.htm
Frequent Sex Protects Marital Happiness
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101208083055.htm
http://forums.delphiforums.com/sexgender
http://forums.delphiforums.com/trow1
http://forums.delphiforums.com/bibel
http://forums.delphiforums.com/jain1
http://forums.delphiforums.com/zoroastrianism2

ritageorge
16-09-14, 14:25
This makes perfect intuitive sense.

Aberdeen
16-09-14, 14:31
It's nonsense. Many kinds of mental health problems can be cured or controlled with the right medical treatment. And mental health issues are actually more common among some religious groups, such as protestant fundamentalists, than among atheists or agnostics. It's not clear that such religious beliefs actually cause mental health problems, and many scientists believe that the correlation is caused by the fact that rigid belief systems appeal to people with mental health issues, but there definitely is a partial correlation between fundamentalist belief systems and mental health issues.

Ike
16-09-14, 14:47
It's not quite nonsense. I'm an atheist but I must say that hypothesis Theodorik posted is not very far from truth.
And I wouldn't equate his traditional religious values with religious fundamentalists.

Angela
16-09-14, 15:02
It's not quite nonsense. I'm an atheist but I must say that hypothesis Theodorik posted is not very far from truth.
And I wouldn't equate his traditional religious values with religious fundamentalists.

I'm on board with that...there does seem to be a lot of research showing a correlation between close family bonds and mental health (physical health and longevity too) and between belonging to a faith community and mental health.

Extreme religious fundamentalism is a separate issue. The mentally unstable are always drawn to the extremes, whether it's extreme religious views or extreme political views, and sometimes extreme political views become a religion of sorts. I actually think the early Communists are a perfect example, and Nazis as well.

FBS
16-09-14, 16:31
Try living with the narcissist parent(s)... Anyway the hypothesis is very simplistic and if you read the first link, there are no conclusive outcomes about religion. It actually says the following:
"To me, the evidence substantiates that it is not really going to church and listening to sermons or praying that makes people happier, but making church-based friends and building intimate social networks there," Lim said.

So the actual "ingredient" here is socializing (face to face, not like some Facebook or similar platforms), and not sticking to your family only or being a believer (religious) in particular. People who are very close to the families are actually quite neurotic and have different mild or severe deviations or psychosis, they simply cannot make an independent decision since they will constantly need to have their family approval.

Aberdeen
16-09-14, 19:31
Try living with the narcissist parent(s)... Anyway the hypothesis is very simplistic and if you read the first link, there are no conclusive outcomes about religion. It actually says the following:
"To me, the evidence substantiates that it is not really going to church and listening to sermons or praying that makes people happier, but making church-based friends and building intimate social networks there," Lim said.

So the actual "ingredient" here is socializing (face to face, not like some Facebook or similar platforms), and not sticking to your family only or being a believer (religious) in particular. People who are very close to the families are actually quite neurotic and have different mild or severe deviations or psychosis, they simply cannot make an independent decision since they will constantly need to have their family approval.

That makes a lot of sense. If people benefit from belonging to a traditional religious group, I believe those benefits come mainly from being part of a community of people with shared interests, which provides access to emotional support from and interaction with more than just family members. But involvement in a fundamentalist group or a mind controlling cult can be just as destructive as being part of a disfunctional family. And I got the impression that Theodorik was speaking from a fundamentalist point of view, based on his black and white thinking. My apologies to him if I was mistaken, but I doubt I was.

Sile
16-09-14, 20:20
That makes a lot of sense. If people benefit from belonging to a traditional religious group, I believe those benefits come mainly from being part of a community of people with shared interests, which provides access to emotional support from and interaction with more than just family members. But involvement in a fundamentalist group or a mind controlling cult can be just as destructive as being part of a disfunctional family. And I got the impression that Theodorik was speaking from a fundamentalist point of view, based on his black and white thinking. My apologies to him if I was mistaken, but I doubt I was.

Religion plays no part in what one teaches his/her children what is wrong and what is right. I work with very many non-religious people who are far better in integrity, justice and honesty than religious people.

I believe in zero in community religion, I believe religion is a solo institute. You pray alone, you can pray anywhere.

I believe all religions are equal including pagan religions .............even aboriginals had their dream time "religion " .............society does not need to listen to mainstream reliogions to be a religious person............they do not even need to listen to a priest, the parents can teach the children the religion. Do we really need to entrust our children in being taught religion by a stranger?

BTW...I pray daily.

Angela
16-09-14, 21:02
Try living with the narcissist parent(s)... Anyway the hypothesis is very simplistic and if you read the first link, there are no conclusive outcomes about religion. It actually says the following:
"To me, the evidence substantiates that it is not really going to church and listening to sermons or praying that makes people happier, but making church-based friends and building intimate social networks there," Lim said.

So the actual "ingredient" here is socializing (face to face, not like some Facebook or similar platforms), and not sticking to your family only or being a believer (religious) in particular. People who are very close to the families are actually quite neurotic and have different mild or severe deviations or psychosis, they simply cannot make an independent decision since they will constantly need to have their family approval.

Oh, ok, let me get this straight, Chinese culture, Indian culture, southern European cultures (certainly Italian culture) and, in fact, most of humanity have it all wrong, and strong family ties are destructive, producing neurotic people, whereas the post industrial cultures of northern Europe produce more well balanced people.

Really? Sorry, but you might want to do some actual research; that conclusion is belied by almost all of the research I've ever seen.

Instead, there is an inverse relationship between strong familial bonds and a whole raft of psychological disorders, including alcoholism. Now, is there a genetic component to all these things, and an economic one as well? Yes, of course, but the societal factors are undeniable in my opinion.

Aberdeen
17-09-14, 02:32
Oh, ok, let me get this straight, Chinese culture, Indian culture, southern European cultures (certainly Italian culture) and, in fact, most of humanity have it all wrong, and strong family ties are destructive, producing neurotic people, whereas the post industrial cultures of northern Europe produce more well balanced people.

Really? Sorry, but you might want to do some actual research; that conclusion is belied by almost all of the research I've ever seen.

Instead, there is an inverse relationship between strong familial bonds and a whole raft of psychological disorders, including alcoholism. Now, is there a genetic component to all these things, and an economic one as well? Yes, of course, but the societal factors are undeniable in my opinion.

It seems to me that you're talking about the benefits of being part of an extended family, whereas FBS seems to be talking about the problem of being part of a disfunctional nuclear family with tight boundaries. Those two things are not comparable, IMO.

Angela
17-09-14, 04:27
It seems to me that you're talking about the benefits of being part of an extended family, whereas FBS seems to be talking about the problem of being part of a disfunctional nuclear family with tight boundaries. Those two things are not comparable, IMO.


I'm not quite sure I understand. If you mean that there is something in the structure of the modern, post-industrial nuclear family as it exists in northern and perhaps eastern Europe, and certainly in what we could perhaps call the "Anglo" diaspora world that is qualitatively different from the extended families of more traditional cultures, that is perhaps true.

It's a truncated family, yes, a family that is subject, perhaps, to more stress because there are not extended family members around to take on some of the burdens of child rearing, illness, domestic work etc. or to provide financial or emotional support if you need it. It's also a family structure where, in my opinion, the bonds are more fragile and easily broken precisely because the weight of the extended family, really two extended families, doesn't support it.

However, the constraints that I thought were being discussed are perhaps even stronger in an extended family...there are more people to satisfy...more people to disappoint...more people to tell you what to do! Yes, it's true...if the parents, often even the grandparents, are heavy handed, they can wind up making decisions for you instead of providing an example and letting you learn your life lessons through some mistakes, if need be...But there's a cycle to it all...as the older generation dies, the next one, now seasoned, and hopefully more wise, takes up the reins.

I actually have had these conversations with all my cousins, both the Italian and the American ones, increasingly, as of late. Without exception, we all feel the weight shifting as the older generation passes; now, we're the "older" generation, the ones who have to be wise, to guide the younger ones, the ones who have the responsibility. It sounds silly to say of adults, some of whom are well into middle life, but it's a daunting prospect. It feels lonely and exposed without that buttressing wall behind us. I comfort myself and them by saying that perhaps our parents and grandparents felt the same way and that we'll match up, but I'm afraid it rings hollow.

I suppose what I'm trying to get at in my meandering way is that there are pluses and minuses to everything. The nuclear family is uniquely suited to modern capitalistic society. It permits members to travel and relocate for economic reasons. It allows for great individual autonomy and "freedom". My question is, at what cost? I don't think that the alienation that is so prevalent in modern society and has been a feature of it for most of the twentieth century and into the twenty-first century, or what is, in my opinion, the incomplete socialization of children, and all the attendant ills of both of those things are unconnected to this.

For what it's worth, I do think that there is a middle ground between harshly authoritarian, stultifying, often penalizing, especially for women, extended family structures such as we see in the third world, and the loose and insufficiently supportive, in my opinion, bonds of the modern nuclear family of many western industrial societies.

Ed. In the end, we all view the world through the prism of the culture in which we were raised, and our own personal experiences, or at least I do. So, take it for what it's worth...I mean no disrespect to anyone's culture...this may not be the truth for everyone, but it's my truth.

Ed. Perhaps I should post Mamma again in the Italian music thread???:laughing: It's not only Italian men who don't want to leave their mothers. Seriously, I'd give years of my life to have her back and living with me. I'd have to fight my brother for her, though!

Dalmat
17-09-14, 07:09
People arnt made to be cosmopolitan, its degeneration of human nature, human nature is to live in smaller groups, or should i poetically say tribes.

In such tribes, rules like religion or any other social rules are much stronger then in big cities where everybody is for themselves.
Living in big city is like living alone, which can certainly lead to mental illnesses.
In such environment, religion is unimportant, community doesn't really exist, all you have is state laws that keep the order

This is why people in smaller towns are more religious, and happier in general, because they have strong backup from community, and social rules they can fall back to.

Maleth
17-09-14, 09:19
People arnt made to be cosmopolitan, its degeneration of human nature, human nature is to live in smaller groups, or should i poetically say tribes.

In such tribes, rules like religion or any other social rules are much stronger then in big cities where everybody is for themselves.
Living in big city is like living alone, which can certainly lead to mental illnesses.
In such environment, religion is unimportant, community doesn't really exist, all you have is state laws that keep the order

This is why people in smaller towns are more religious, and happier in general, because they have strong backup from community, and social rules they can fall back to.

That is not totally true. Young people with lots of energy seem to prefer living in cities where opportunities are MUCH bigger and most do good use out of them. Loneliness only gets to you as much as you allow it too and its not really a trend especially with today's available communications. Of course there are always exeptions. In fact the trend around the world that cities keep on growing, so there must be a good reason for it.

As people get older priorities might change and a fast paced life might not be so appealing and going back to their roots (if it was a village) could be more possible. I know from experience that village life (my father side) can be stifling and suffocating and often a deterrent for creativity unless you totally confirm with the norms of that 'Tribe'. Its great to attend the annual festivities and revive great childhood memories, but also glad to be away.

hope
17-09-14, 15:09
Well at least you have put links to this thread, Theodorik.
However the "message" is still the same, right? You seem to be promoting a set of ideological views, that you have went for in other of your threads, regarding the idea of "traditional" values. These, if they are what you personally believe in are yours to have but when you start trying to masquerade them as something else, that`s not so good IMO. Also because you tend not to enter into the discussions of your own threads, we are left with only a few opening words and your links to work from. Having only that to go on, this is my conclusion, and please feel free to correct all or any that is incorrect, and accept my apology in advance, if any is required, because offense is not my aim.
You seem to to be;
anti-immigration
anti-women`s rights
anti-gay
anti-modernity
Your ideal world IMO is one where two people [ opposite sex of course] marry. The woman will likely stay at home producing many children [ for the happiness element]. The man will go off to work in a "homogenous" community, where no-one ever gets depressed and on Sundays every-one goes to church....oh yes, and no-one is ever gay.
Tell me do theyàll get together for a "barn raising" when required?

As to the links provided. I agree going to church can perhaps promote a feeling of well being. This IMO and that of your study link is, social communication. It is well known isolation can cause depression. It has been documented that those who have no or very little human contact can become depressed. I have spoken on this with regards to extended term in prison isolation units and I believe it was Maciamo [?] who recently posted regarding isolation and mental health issues. Church gives the chance to socialise and everyone is welcome. In most churches [place whichever type of building you wish here eg. temple, chapel, mosque etc] there will be hand shaking [ good for releasing the positive side of oxytocin]. The time you sit in quiet reflection may even benefit blood pressure level. So yes, I agree going to church can certainly give people a feeling of, as I said, well-being.
The thing is, you can get this at many other venues...where people can get together and spend time in the company of others, not just church.
As for marriage and children helping to keep depression at bay. There is without doubt great mental benefits to be had from both these things. Likewise any long term relationship will suffice to do this, regardless if the couple are married or not. Absolutely, kids are brilliant and give so much. Likewise they can drive you to distraction at times but overall they are IMO to be rated highly.
On the other hand regarding home and family..and I believe this is the point FBS was getting at....sometimes home is where danger lurks. Think regarding domestic abuse, child abuse, both mental and/or physical. A lot of people suffer major depression via certain family related circumstances. So I agree that family can be a great and wonderful thing, it can be the good base for future interactions...but this is not always the case for everyone.
Besides which your link states it is in answer to previous studies showing not everyone benefits from family and children. It does not object so much to those findings but rather to the "too simplistic views given for this".

As for you point that mental health drugs make people worse, well that`s not quite true, is it? Whilst it may be argued some medications may effect some people negatively on long term use, it is certainly not the overall case for all people. Plus you have not even stated which mental health issues you are claiming this for or indeed which , of the many, medications you mean. But going by a link from your last thread, it is any and all," for the powers that be are causing depression in their communities so people take drugs and get controlled..". This is what the link says...perhaps not in exact words but very close. Naughty.

Ike
17-09-14, 15:15
Living in big city is like living alone, which can certainly lead to mental illnesses.

Oh, sweet debauchery, why must I seek you away from home?
And why is life so expensive behind these concrete city walls?
I have to work the whole day just to not have time for thee.
And no time for myself, just for that vaudeville dream...

FBS
17-09-14, 16:37
Theodorik has opened several topics, and here is my opinion:

Religion makes people happier - The study actually does not claim that, it says socialising is the key to happiness. We can do that outside the church as well, so not convincing at all.

Spirituality protects against depression – completely agree, but the spirituality does not have to be a religious one. For e.g. Jon Kabat Zin does that, he teaches mindfulness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness_(psychology)), which he says can help people cope with stress, anxiety, pain, and illness. The stress reduction program created by Kabat-Zinn, called Mindfulness-based stress reduction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness-based_stress_reduction), is offered by medical centers, hospitals, and health maintenance organizations.

Brain Study Shows Thinking About God Reduces Stress – that is only true for the God fearing people (deeply religious who do not have doubts if there is a God or not), therefore disagree. I can just think of marvellous food in shores of Albania and their simply wonderful nature, olive oil, sea and my stress is gone. Why, because I am thankful for what nature is providing. Then again, mindfulness comes to mind.

Married With Children Key To Happiness – well this can be achieved by gay couple as well. They can be married and adopt or have surrogate mothers. But there are people who will never be able to be good parents therefore it is better for them not to have children.

Frequent Sex Protects Marital Happiness – Nothing new, we know that. Gay couple can do that as well.

FBS
17-09-14, 16:42
Regarding the families:

At the level of values (that are still at work in the world at present) families (unfortunately) are mostly selfish, either core or extended, even though there are slight percentages that are above their egos. Many have a problem to understand that but, parents are unknowingly selfish and the south Europe, Italians included, know how difficult it is to fulfill their families’ wants and wishes. You have to marry “your own kind” (social level, region, nation, religion, urban/village; the list is endless,) you have to study what your family thinks is best for you, work where your family thinks is best for you, educate your children in the way they think is best, and do not even start with the in-laws list of wishes and requirements. There are cases that the in-laws (think they) can decide for the spouse of their son what and where she can work or the other way round. And these are all seemingly normal families with no signs of any deviations, but we all fail to realize that those are narcissists that consider their children or their cousins as their extensions. Their children need to be "stand by" to fulfill all the wants of their parents and sometimes become their personal chauffeurs (even for the whole extended family) because your mother says so and she does not want to lose face because her son is the best and humble. And religious families are the worst, try and be different or gay in that family, or marry a different member of religion.

Angela
17-09-14, 17:46
I am truly sorry that you are so embittered by your upbringing. You are not, however, in my experience, at all typical of a southern European in your attitudes. I wouldn't under any circumstances trade my "family" experience for that of my "American" neighbors, nor would any of the people I know, foreign born or native born, who were raised the same way, and we have the benefit of having seen both "styles" in action, so to speak, and truth be told, my "American" friends envy that experience.

No human endeavor and no societal structure is perfect, there are just degrees of good and bad...

I don't want to belittle your point of view, or condescend to you, but I would just suggest that you may find, as Mark Twain did, that as he aged, his father amazingly became more and more intelligent.

And now, I'll leave you all to it...these kinds of threads quickly become too polarizing for me...

LeBrok
17-09-14, 17:53
Theodorik has opened several topics, and here is my opinion:

Religion makes people happier - The study actually does not claim that, it says socialising is the key to happiness. We can do that outside the church as well, so not convincing at all.

Spirituality protects against depression – completely agree, but the spirituality does not have to be a religious one. For e.g. Jon Kabat Zin does that, he teaches mindfulness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness_(psychology)), which he says can help people cope with stress, anxiety, pain, and illness. The stress reduction program created by Kabat-Zinn, called Mindfulness-based stress reduction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness-based_stress_reduction), is offered by medical centers, hospitals, and health maintenance organizations.

Brain Study Shows Thinking About God Reduces Stress – that is only true for the God fearing people (deeply religious who do not have doubts if there is a God or not), therefore disagree. I can just think of marvellous food in shores of Albania and their simply wonderful nature, olive oil, sea and my stress is gone. Why, because I am thankful for what nature is providing. Then again, mindfulness comes to mind.

Married With Children Key To Happiness – well this can be achieved by gay couple as well. They can be married and adopt or have surrogate mothers. But there are people who will never be able to be good parents therefore it is better for them not to have children.

Frequent Sex Protects Marital Happiness – Nothing new, we know that. Gay couple can do that as well.

Aren't these elements part of our long history either farmers or few million years of being hunter-gatherer? No wonder that anything related to our ancestor lifestyle makes us feel good and happy. If it works for them it usually works for us today too. Solitary confinement, although not harmful to the body, is consider one of worst possible punishment, if not torture.
Pleasurable activities which reduce stress are walking/roaming/hiking through meadows, forests and mountains, dancing, playing games; for guys even going to the war together and fighting is fun and although lethal itself, might be healthy and beneficial for the rest of the group. So called "hanging out" and "chilling", just being together without a bigger purpose by itself is beneficial for all participants.

FBS
17-09-14, 19:03
I am truly sorry that you are so embittered by your upbringing. You are not, however, in my experience, at all typical of a southern European in your attitudes. I wouldn't under any circumstances trade my "family" experience for that of my "American" neighbors, nor would any of the people I know, foreign born or native born, who were raised the same way, and we have the benefit of having seen both "styles" in action, so to speak, and truth be told, my "American" friends envy that experience.

No human endeavor and no societal structure is perfect, there are just degrees of good and bad...

I don't want to belittle your point of view, or condescend to you, but I would just suggest that you may find, as Mark Twain did, that as he aged, his father amazingly became more and more intelligent.

And now, I'll leave you all to it...these kinds of threads quickly become too polarizing for me...
This has not happened to me Angela that is probably why I am "different". These are my observations that I have witnessed not only in balkans, I am sorry that some might find them harsh.

Yetos
17-09-14, 23:19
There is no bigger proof,

check the forum, and posts