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Angela
19-09-14, 20:33
I hope our Ligurian member checks in from time to time. I had promised I would post pictures of people from this eastern Ligurian/NW Tuscany area. The girls whose pictures I have posted all have different, but local surnames. To my eyes, they look very "North Italian". This particular village has a dearth of stereotypically "Med" looking people, while other villages are more "mixed" in terms of phenotype, and others still, particularly toward the coast, have that particular blend of "northern" and "central/southern" phenotypes that for me really define the area. (I think it's just "drift" btw. The people in these villages would undoubtedly be horrified to discover it, but they are probably far more closely "related" than they think.)

6638


6642
6641

6640

6639

Angela
20-09-14, 04:15
Sorry about that...I had to free up some attachment space. The ones in the first post are visible now.

These are from a village not even two miles away. These are more "mixed" in type, I think...


6649

This unfortunate haircut again!

6656

6654

Angela
20-09-14, 19:16
Sorry again...I'm supposed to have unlimited attachments, but it doesn't seem to be working for the second post! Until it's fixed, some internet pictures from the same village:

http://www.bagnonemia.com/Arcobaleno_news/57891_bagnone-une.jpg

http://cdn.scommettionline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/vincita-super-enalotto-2.jpg

http://www.repubblica.it/2009/08/sezioni/cronaca/superenalotto-uno/vincitore-ipotesi/cge_16542216_29090.jpg

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/H-kdaOg_8rQ/0.jpg

I’m particularly interested if anyone has any ideas about him. It’s a look that crops up a lot but I’m not sure where one similar could be found in other parts of the world.
http://blogs.transparent.com/italian/files/2014/04/testarol-mattia.jpg

Our "most famous son"...Gigi Buffon. (Half of his ancestry is from the Veneto, however.) His wedding was held in his mother's ancestral frazione.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Tr9KyEh2MOc/UQYhI-CtbEI/AAAAAAAAHFY/DXO6wp7AMTU/s1600/Gianluigi+Buffon+Wife+Alena+Seredova+2013_1.jpg

Sindaco:
http://www.cittadellaspezia.com/foto/2013/11/19/57021.jpg

There are some half southern Italian and one half African here, but it gives a good idea of what you'd see at the pool in the summer:
http://allegati.aicod.it/bagnone/Giochisenzacampanile.jpg

Quite a varied bunch for another village of 2,000, I think!

Angela
21-09-14, 17:41
I dumped some more attachments to get post number 2 pictures to show up. I'd really appreciate it if someone could fix the attachment function for me.

Angela
25-09-14, 19:07
Ed. none of the attachments printed, so I'll have to dump more of the old ones.

Angela
26-09-14, 14:17
Some of the older ones:

66706671

6669

As I mentioned upthread, Gigi Buffon's mother is from our area. She was a champion in the shot put as was his father. His uncle was a soccer player and his sisters played professional volley ball. Obviously, a very fit and athletic family.

http://sport.sky.it/static/contentimages/original/sezioni/sport/calcio_italiano/2012/05/13/mamma_e_gigi_buffon_getty.jpg

Angela
27-09-14, 18:07
Gente di Fivizzano:

The "provenance", if you will, of the prior people posted is known to me personally because they are from my mother's ancestral villages.

Here, I know the genealogy of only a few. However, the "Disfida" which they hold once a year is organized like the internationally known Palio of Siena in that to participate you have to have ancestry from certain "quarters". Now, someone with partial southern ancestry might qualify, so some of the younger people may indeed be, and seem to be, of partial southern ancestry. To my "eye" they have, as a whole, more of a "Tuscan" look than is present in some of the other villages, although it is very "mixed" as well. This makes sense since they have been part of Toscana since the time of the early Medici,and don't have the Ligurian roots of some of the villages to their west.

The drummers, all young men:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-J-8LC7Vl8WQ/UhLWlRO8J7I/AAAAAAAABmQ/lyIP5CsFF3A/s1600/drummers.jpg

A lovely horsewoman:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k9AF4kQ96vg/UhLXEReC2gI/AAAAAAAABmg/1FECn2qxebs/s1600/horse.jpg

I may have posted this picture before, but I love it, so I'm going to post it again:
http://0.tqn.com/y/goeurope/1/S/W/j/1/fivizzano_disfida_picture_3.jpg

The ladies lining up in their finery:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2b4Gad9BhPQ/UhLW4HhNm7I/AAAAAAAABmY/PzJY5ejcxCk/s1600/parade.jpg

http://www.wanderingitaly.com/graphics/disfida-fivizzano-1.jpg

The world is indeed changing...and sometimes for the better...we now have lady archers. :smile:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-N8Oc9eYf5ps/UhLckKi10jI/AAAAAAAABns/BjbU3j2aeEs/s1600/archers.jpg

Making a joyful noise:
http://www.wanderingitaly.com/graphics/disfida-fivizzano-5.jpg

The ladies talking about "lady" things:
http://www.comune.fivizzano.ms.it/installazioni/fivizzano/galleria/foto%20mery%20017.jpg

Here is the adorable younger set. One little boy looks to me to have some southern ancestry. They are my absolute favorite thing about these kinds of events. :) I want to take them all home...and then I remember...:grin:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4ONFGWs7qRs/UhLYkITbo7I/AAAAAAAABnA/Colipq5mi2Y/s1600/children.jpg
http://www.wanderingitaly.com/blog/images/160.jpg
http://0.tqn.com/y/goeurope/1/S/b/j/1/fivizzano_disfida_picture_9.jpg
http://www.wanderingitaly.com/graphics/disfida-fivizzano-6.jpg
http://www.wanderingitaly.com/graphics/disfida-fivizzano-4.jpg

It's hard work:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9vH3W4l0duE/UhLdsWkJe2I/AAAAAAAABn4/LJ7Fp7AN3Yw/s1600/dads_outfit_in_parade.jpg

How burdens used to be carried:
http://0.tqn.com/y/goeurope/1/U/a/j/1/fivizzano_disfida_picture_8.jpg

Taking a well deserved rest:
http://www.lanazione.it/polopoly_fs/1.27868.1404756272!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_800/image.jpg

Angela
29-09-14, 17:59
These pictures are from our largest town (outside of La Spezia) so there are more emigrants and part emigrants living here, and the rules about participation are not as stringent, but still most of the people in the parade should be of at least partly local ancestry. The people selling merchandise, entertaining the crowds, watching the show, are a different story.

I start with my favorites, the little ones:
http://www.medievalis.org/wp-content/uploads/kid.jpg
http://blogs.transparent.com/italian/files/2010/08/medievalis9.jpg
This is from a distance, but they are too cute not to include:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uQLS9-wn190/UAQZ2mGYnII/AAAAAAAAAPQ/1SKEcQGl-qg/%25255BUNSET%25255D.jpg

Some of our teens:
http://www.medievalis.org/wp-content/gallery/cerreto-laghi/img_5586.jpg
http://www.lanazione.it/polopoly_fs/1.143975.1408803044!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_800/image.jpg

The Ladies:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EPaZq03D7CY/UheRsNRH8uI/AAAAAAAAGNg/L8ZMcKzAlZw/s1600/Medievalis+2013+1+%2881%29.JPG
http://www.medievalis.org/wp-content/gallery/2012/dscf0570.jpg
http://blogs.transparent.com/italian/files/2010/08/medievalis3.jpg

The Lords and Knights:
http://www.medievalis.org/wp-content/uploads/pietro2.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bvn-WVaIgAA49zC.jpg:large
http://www.lanazione.it/polopoly_fs/1.143974.1408803044!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_800/image.jpg
http://www.medievalis.org/wp-content/themes/blessing/admin/extensions/timthumb.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.medievalis.org%2 Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fpremio.jpg&w=940&h=380


The hoi polloi:
http://blogs.transparent.com/italian/files/2010/08/medievalis4.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RVPMxChkbUU/U_kDCWdO_WI/AAAAAAAAIu4/FaS6SQNi6HQ/s1600/Medievalis%2B2014%2B099.jpg
http://macchiedicielo.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/giullare2.jpg
http://www.musicacittadina.it/data/fotografie/614-medievalis2010-18.JPG

joeyc
29-09-14, 18:17
Liguria is the swarthiest part of North Italy AFAIK.

Angela
29-09-14, 18:52
It depends on whose data you use...but this is not a thread about Liguria as a whole. It is about a rather specific region, the Lunigiana to be precise, which has been variously ruled by Liguria and Toscana. You might want to review your Biasutti if you are so interested in the pigmentation data for this area.

However, such a discussion was not the purpose of this thread. The purpose was to present the rather varied phenotypes of this particular region in response to a prior question/comment.

I am asking you politely to please not spoil it with disgusting pigmentation wars and other anthrofora nonsense.

Ed. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/BiasuttiMappa.gif

This isn't to say that I'm not interested in any comments any of you might have about "classifications". Properly done, it might indeed provide some clues as to ancient migrations, which is my real interest.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/BiasuttiMappa.gif)

Angela
30-09-14, 20:38
How could I have forgotten to post a picture of Loris Jacopo Bononi of Fivizzano, one of my heroes? He was a giant of a man...the kind of man for whom the phrase "Renaissance man" was created...and a true custodian of history, knowledge and culture. I don't know if we'll see his like again.
http://files.castellodicastiglionedelterziere.webnode.it/200002270-7b6117c5c1/Loris%20Jacopo%20Bononi%20-%20Vieni.JPG

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-xfp1/t1.0-1/c51.51.634.634/s160x160/969694_259120270894975_2035396677_n.jpg

http://files.castellodicastiglionedelterziere.webnode.it/200000977-4eda54fd3d/LJB%208.JPG

This is an English language write up about him:
http://ciaolunigiana.com/loris-jacopo-bononi/

This is him giving one of his famous talks...I only wish the non-Italian speakers could understand him. Still, even without subtitles, you can see the charisma of the man, I think. He is at his inspiring best at 4:11. He could move you to tears. I owe him so much...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7KIVV7EVs

Mars
01-10-14, 16:15
Liguria is the swarthiest part of North Italy AFAIK.
It depends on the areas you consider. Villagers from the inland areas have often fair features, quite frequently "reddish" hair (roman historians already noticed that feature in ancient times). Many people have dark hair and blue eyes. People on the coast are often darker (dark hair/dark eyes), but also more mixed with people from other areas (admixture with non ligurians occured even before the industrial era, though it increased a lot during the XXth century with the southern migration). People from Romagna are probably darker, on average, but realizing "who's darker/fairer" is always a long shot IMO.

Mars
01-10-14, 16:18
I hope our Ligurian member checks in from time to time. I had promised I would post pictures of people from this eastern Ligurian/NW Tuscany area. The girls whose pictures I have posted all have different, but local surnames. To my eyes, they look very "North Italian".
They're common faces, yes ;)

Angela
01-10-14, 19:12
These are from Fosdinovo.

This is a collection of 45 high resolution, large pictures of the people of Fosdinovo. An aunt of mine moved to the area so I go there all the time. Most of these people look local to me.
https://plus.google.com/photos/116498787097701065150/albums/5625838474777191921/5625838571041863026?pid=5625838571041863026&oid=116498787097701065150

From an earlier festa:
The lords and ladies:
http://www.folclore.it/pics/photo/2_4042_201462123943.jpg

The hoi polloi:
http://www.4routard.com/campermagazine/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/4ROUTARD-Festa-medievale-di-Fosdinovo-MS.jpg


As to my prior posts on this thread, the pictures in posts 1, 2, 3 and 6 are from my maternal villages in the central Lunigiana. For posts 1, 2, and 6, I either know their origins or at least their surnames. (I have dozens of pictures of local people from my maternal villages, but there is a limit to how many attachments I can post.) As I had to start using internet pictures for post number 3 there are some admixed people among them. However, the people in pictures 2, 3, 4, and 5 of post number 3 are locals with very local surnames.

Post #7 is of people from Fivizzano, as stated, and Post #8 of people from Pontremoli.

There are difficulties anywhere in central or northern Italy with attempting to do any sort of "anthropological" analysis of phenotypes because of the extensive internal emigration which has occurred. That's why, if you don't know all the details of the family history, surnames are so important, maternal if possible, as well as paternal. Absent this, the best bet is going with organizations which require "local" ancestry. If I had to go with any "paper" or research on the subject, I would go with Livi and Biasutti, as those testees were analyzed before the bulk of the emigration occurred, and it was done on a very local level. My own personal opinion based on the hundreds and hundreds of people I know from both my father's and mother's areas is that those statistics are remarkably accurate for the really "local" people.

Speaking of my personal pictures, what amazes me is how certain "family" phenotypes persist. We had a reunion this summer of my mother's family. People have emigrated to northern Italy, northern Europe, South America, and the U.S. (few of us). There has obviously been some intermarriage. Yet, many of the "faces" were still recognizable.

Mars
02-10-14, 00:48
I know people whose phenotypes pass from mother to daughter to daughter etc (this occurs especially among women, I ignore why). It's amazing. I know two twins, they look identical and they're extremely similar to their mother, and grandmother too...!

Angela
02-10-14, 04:11
I know people whose phenotypes pass from mother to daughter to daughter etc (this occurs especially among women, I ignore why). It's amazing. I know two twins, they look identical and they're extremely similar to their mother, and grandmother too...!

I've seen the same thing, but it didn't work quite that way in my family. I look a great deal like my mother, but she took after her father more, who was mostly a Spezzino. However, my maternal grandparents were third cousins, and a lot of the people in these little villages haven't moved anywhere for about five hundred years, so certain phenotypes keep re-cycling if you know what I mean. :) Anyway, this summer I met Argentinian cousins who despite half Spanish (and probably a drop of Amerindian) ancestry, still had our nose, our mouth, our set of the eyes. They must be very dominant genes!

Oh, and it is continuing through my brother's line as well. His daughter looks more like me than she looks like either of her parents, and his son looks just like my father's Emilian family. My sister-in-law says all she has to show for them is the scar!

Anyway, speaking of small, isolated villages, these are the people of Zeri, a very small village near Pontremoli, which has perhaps better preserved the ancient genomes of the area near the Emilian border. The village has been so isolated that it was often studied by Italian geneticists, including Professore Francalacci.

From these pictures you can see how time could forget them. This is the topography:
http://blogzeri.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/scan10155.jpg

This is the site of their village:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2045/2162908280_6e9fb5bed3.jpg

During the war, these people gave some English and other Allied POWs shelter and collaborated in forming a partisan unit. They paid a heavy price...there are little memorials all over the valley to the people they lost during the rastrellamenti. The son of the Commander of the International Brigade owns a house in the valley, and the families of those English soldiers come regularly to the memorial event he hosts every year.
http://ciaolunigiana.com/rastrellamento-zeri-arzelato-gordon-lett/

This is Gordon Lett's son making a very pretty speech in Italian on the occasion of the screening of a documentary film about the Rastrellamento at Arzelato:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9fqS80ZDEU

This is a very rare and precious archival picture of the farmers of Zeri from that period. If you expand it as much as possible, you can see them a little better. The books written by Commander Lett's son have some wonderful old pictures of them. If the attachment function ever gets fixed I'll get them uploaded.
https://blogzeri.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/scan10012.jpg?w=500

This is Gordon Lett and his International Brigade with some of the people of Zeri:
http://ciaolunigiana.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/420905_3149847597603_1607494105_2634668_2144191374 _n.jpg

This is an older man with a very common look up there:
http://www.erodoto108.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/426_Zeri-Lunigiana_12aprile.jpg
It's a look common on the other side of the Emilia border as well, except for the droop in the nose tip, but then I think that happens to some old people. Ah, old age. I saw a picture of Helen Mirren the other day, and that nose wasn't on her face when she was in her prime!

This is a pair of older men at a musical "evening" when they play old folk tunes utilizing the "organetto" and bagpipes. They do a very old version of our giga up there too, or at least the old people do...it's just like an Irish jig. Not my favorite dance, but tradition is tradition!
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Nef6vXguIQI/mqdefault.jpg

Here's a you tube of two musicians playing the "Giga di Zeri". Be warned...they're playing bagpipes! (Sorry, Hope)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twyKhg9G0yY

A man from Zeri runs a very nice blog called Blogzeri, and there are a series of pictures from Cantamaggio on this section of his site:
https://blogzeri.wordpress.com/tag/musica/

A short documentary film was made called The Women of Zeri, which is about a small group of women who still keep sheep up there. It's like a time warp...eighteen hour days outdoors in the fields or with the animals. Not for me, but some people find it hard to let go of the past in these little rural places. Now, in my neck of the woods our position and orientation means we can grow olives and grapes. The closer to the Mediterranean the better as far as I'm concerned. Now there I might consider running a vineyard in my retirement...with a lot of help, of course :)

http://blogzeri.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/27531_132036143477476_4724_n.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BDL57wlaqoE/T5U74_90qQI/AAAAAAAABbE/rdvf1IZ749k/s1600/DSC_6353-6.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suiJ9wJ2M

For all that they've been so isolated, there's not a single cookie cutter look even up there. There's definitely variation even up there.

Mars
02-10-14, 10:52
The appennine ridge villages and towns share a common history of relative isolation, and transmission of ancient peasant culture, back from the Middle Ages (or even before) to the edge of our post-modern era. The areas from Piedmont to northern Tuscany, including Liguria and part of Emilia, had a lot in common even before the birth of modern Italy in 1861.
If you're interested in northern Appennine history and folklore, I strongly reccomend you to take a look at the ethnological studies about the Quattro Province (four provinces), a territory including part of the present provinces of Genoa, Alessandria, Piacenza and Pavia, that share common musical and cultural ancient traditions.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_Province

hope
02-10-14, 13:43
Here's a you tube of two musicians playing the "Giga di Zeri". Be warned...they`re playing bagpipes (Sorry,Hope)

:laughing:..I admire your memory Angela....actually I don`t mind these ones.

Angela
03-10-14, 04:49
The appennine ridge villages and towns share a common history of relative isolation, and transmission of ancient peasant culture, back from the Middle Ages (or even before) to the edge of our post-modern era. The areas from Piedmont to northern Tuscany, including Liguria and part of Emilia, had a lot in common even before the birth of modern Italy in 1861.
If you're interested in northern Appennine history and folklore, I strongly reccomend you to take a look at the ethnological studies about the Quattro Province (four provinces), a territory including part of the present provinces of Genoa, Alessandria, Piacenza and Pavia, that share common musical and cultural ancient traditions.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_Province


Thank you Mars...yes, I have done. The people of this region (and their culture) are of great interest to me because my father's entire family for at least the last 500 years comes from villages in these mountains in and between the Val Parma and Val Cedra. I don't think there's much of a difference between them and the people of the "Four Provinces".

I don't know if you're aware of it, but the history of Italian genetics and it might not be an exaggeration to say the history of population genetics began in those villages. It was there that Luigi Cavalli Sforza collected the blood samples and did the genealogical research that led to his pioneering work in population genetics. It was when, at university, I realized that my people were the basis for this work that I first became interested in the subject.

Anway, I've posted the music of a group from there in the Italian Folkmusic section. I've heard them in person and really like their music. If you know the people of those regions, their faces may also be familiar to you.

I present Baraban

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkBYn-AYULU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkBYn-AYULU)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOyY77xd3l4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOyY77xd3l4)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHc2s9JgVuE

It's sad and interesting to see how they've aged. The lead singer is almost unrecognizable as time passes...very familiar in both incarnations, however. In fact, as a young man my brother looked just like him, only with reddish hair.

Hope posted this musician of the Piva. He is apparently known even in Ireland. Alas, I am not sufficiently enamored of bagpipes in any incarnation...nor of the Pifero. Mandolins and guitars, violins and organettos are much more to my liking, although I don't venture that opinion when I brave the mountains to visit family.http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.png

From Hope:
"Fabio Vetro is a favourite with me , very talented man..[ and a very nice person also]. I particularly like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5B8abc0eAk

It's a small world, isn't it?

I haven't yet posted, but will, this song from my father's neck of the woods. The group is called Piva dal Carner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX2gErWSzCM

Believe it or not, a Board member asked about it. He had seen it mentioned in a Rough Guide to Italy of all things!

Oh, I also posted two trallalero songs. I'm going to transfer them to the Folk music thread as well. Not professionals by any means, just neighborhood people apparently, and not up to the caliber of some of the Corsican groups, in my opinion, but a wonderful tradition which has managed to hang on a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IhQlfNN-eI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyKDvf_MmBo

Hope...I forget what I went upstairs to get, or what I have to buy at the grocery store, but not these kinds of things. What that says about me I'm not quite sure!http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/smile.gif

Mars
03-10-14, 16:39
Oh, I also posted two trallalero songs. I'm going to transfer them to the Folk music thread as well. Not professionals by any means, just neighborhood people apparently, and not up to the caliber of some of the Corsican groups, in my opinion, but a wonderful tradition which has managed to hang on a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IhQlfNN-eI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyKDvf_MmBo

Hope...I forget what I went upstairs to get, or what I have to buy at the grocery store, but not these kinds of things. What that says about me I'm not quite sure!http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/smile.gif
Trallalero is the most typical form of popular song in Liguria. Everyone who's born here has heard a trallalero choir, at least once in life. I checked the Wikipedia article about it and I found this, I really didn't know it, amazing:
In the 1950s, American musicologist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musicology) Alan Lomax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Lomax) and Diego Carpitella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Carpitella) recorded trallalero. Lomax later claimed he was blown away, and called it the most significant work in his long and storied career. Edward Neill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Neill) worked to revitalize the tradition in the middle of the 20th century.

hope
03-10-14, 19:02
Actually it was this one I posted, Angela...:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lIrw5BEpGg



Hope...I forget what I went upstairs to get, or what I have to buy at the grocery store, but not these kinds of things. What that says about me I'm not quite sure!http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/smile.gif
:laughing: Angela, I think this has probably happened to us all at some point. What makes it worse is when you go back downstairs, you remember then what it was you went up for and have to make a return journey! I like to think it is the brains way of telling us we need a little exercise......

Angela
03-10-14, 20:13
Actually it was this one I posted, Angela...:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lIrw5BEpGg



:laughing: Angela, I think this has probably happened to us all at some point. What makes it worse is when you go back downstairs, you remember then what it was you went up for and have to make a return journey! I like to think it is the brains way of telling us we need a little exercise......

I just came on here to make the correction because I was getting some info from the other thread and saw that I made a mistake! As I'm a perfectionist, that was deeply upsetting.:disappointed: Ah well, he's a good musician so now we have two links...it's all good as my children say.

The absolute worst is when you can't remember where you put the list that's supposed to help you remember the list! :useless: However, I suppose it's better than not having a list at all, which was my husband's style of shopping.:rolleyes2: Did I mention that turmeric on fried potatoes is not all that bad? Well, let's say that it's tolerable, but then I never met a potato I didn't like.

Angela
03-10-14, 20:34
Trallalero is the most typical form of popular song in Liguria. Everyone who's born here has heard a trallalero choir, at least once in life. I checked the Wikipedia article about it and I found this, I really didn't know it, amazing:
In the 1950s, American musicologist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musicology)Alan Lomax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Lomax) and Diego Carpitella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Carpitella) recorded trallalero. Lomax later claimed he was blown away, and called it the most significant work in his long and storied career. Edward Neill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Neill) worked to revitalize the tradition in the middle of the 20th century.


This is a tad off topic, but since it's my thread, I hope I'll be given some leeway. http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/smile.gif

I've heard trallalero in La Spezia, but rarely.

Trallalero, or, more generally, a cappella polyphonic singing, is beloved by laypeople and musicologists throughout the world. The most accomplished performers today are, in my opinion, in Corsica, which, as I'm sure you know, has deep ties with both Liguria and Toscana.

This is what another musicologist,Dorothy Carrington, wrote about Corsican polyphonic singing:
the singers, who "...never... feel so united in their apartness, their insularity, as when performing this indigenous music inherited from their unremembered past. Fathers and sons and brothers and cousins stand or crouch in close formation, body to body, ear to ear, linked in the communion of singing with each other, with their race and with the hosts of their ancestors." "I had the impression of hearing a voice from the entrails of the earth. Song from the beginning of the world," she said after hearing singing one Christmas eve in a chapel in the Fiumorbu.

These are the two examples I posted in a thread on this Board called "Mediterranean Music", which I highly recommend. http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/innocent.gif

This one is by a group called Barbara Furtuna. I am passionate about them...saw them both in Italy and here in New York, where they were very well received.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDZuPUA1vNE

This is another Corsican group singing a Corsican version of the Christe Eleison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9Ote3hejqU:


Alex Lomax deserves a monument. He recorded folk music from all over the world, including 3,000 songs from Italy alone.

This is just one of his collections of Italian folk music. It’s a sampler. You can preview the songs on ITunes:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/alan-lomax-collection-italian/id2484996


Piemonte and Valle D’Aosta:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/italian-treasury-piemonte/id20109703

This is his collection of Trallalero music, the Ligurian specific and unique version of polyphonic singing.
http://www.allmusic.com/album/italian-treasury-the-trallaleri-of-genoa-mw0000666497

One of the songs is on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOlLd4yly7k

I particularly love how Lomax captured them using their technique to sing “In The Mood”. http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.png America made its influence felt even there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUA3-phWIzg
This clip has great footage and stills of American service people as well as the dock workers of Genova.
Starting at 3:00 you can see the performers. (See, it still has to do with phenotypes!)

There are collections from his work from Naples, Calabria, Sicily etc.


If you are interested in traditional Italian music, you might want to take a look at the Discography of Christine Pluhar’s L’Arpeggiata group. All of her “albums” feature traditional Italian music and she has done two complete albums of Monteverdi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Arpeggiata

Mars
03-10-14, 22:29
Back in topic, how would you define the people you posted, "typologically"? I mean, according to old anthropology typology theory. I'm not even sure it actually makes sense though, but it seems some features actually appear in different people according to some sort of "scheme" (e.g. a long head associated to a narrow face).

Angela
04-10-14, 16:37
Mars, if you'll permit me, I'm going to post my last series, and then I'll address your question, and hope that we, and other members, can discuss them.

These are pictures of local people of Sarzana and LaSpezia, which are part of Liguria politically, but have always been genetically and culturally, in my opinion, part of the territory of “Luni”.


(The people or their histories are either known to me or, at the least, their surnames are unmistakably local and, in some cases, limited to these two areas specifically.


(His surname, Vistori, exists only in La Spezia, to my knowledge, and he has a totally local face.)

http://www.beppegrillo.it/listeciviche/mt-static/support/temp-userpics/20120906154105-427002_10150741600498968_1481486129_n.jpg

Fiasella-a surname only found in La Spezia and Massa Carrara

http://static.8100.corriereobjects.it/ssi/contents/politica/dettaglio-rappresentanti/immagini/7217.jpg

Ravecca-a totally local name and a totally local face:

http://static.8100.corriereobjects.it/ssi/contents/politica/dettaglio-rappresentanti/immagini/540772.jpg

Andrea Calevo, son of a prominent family in LaSpezia…the victim of a terrible kidnapping:
http://notizie.tiscali.it/media/14/04/calevo100.jpg

Caleo:

http://www.sarzanachebotta.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/caleo6.jpg

Valettini-a few offshoots down the coast in Toscana, but basically a La Spezia and Lunigiana name

http://iltirreno.gelocal.it/polopoly_fs/1.2372389.1322782725!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_250/image.jpg (http://iltirreno.gelocal.it/polopoly_fs/1.2372389.1322782725%21/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_250/image.jpg)

Zanotti-a common name among us, but common all over northern Italy:

http://static.8100.corriereobjects.it/ssi/contents/politica/dettaglio-rappresentanti/immagini/540772.jpg

Destri-

http://www.pdsarzana.it/upload/imagemanager/www.pdsarzana.it/Foto_segretario.jpg

Barontini-This is a surname present in La Spezia, but the majority of the people who bear that name are in Toscana proper, with offshoots in Umbria and Le Marche
http://old.comune.sarzana.sp.it/citta/cultura/personaggi/Barontini_Anelito_1.jpg

Michelucci-Another common name, but with Tuscan roots:

http://static.8100.corriereobjects.it/ssi/contents/politica/dettaglio-rappresentanti/immagini/249142.jpg
(I do love the way that so many Tuscans look so distinctly and uniquely Italian.)

Accorsi-Again, this is a surname present in LaSpezia, but it is basically a name from the Romagna it seems to me:

http://static.8100.corriereobjects.it/ssi/contents/politica/dettaglio-rappresentanti/immagini/703224.jpg

Some participants at local events who have very “local” faces:

http://www.sarzanasenzatempo.com/wp-content/gallery/edizione-2010/27.jpg (http://www.sarzanasenzatempo.com/wp-content/gallery/edizione-2010/27.jpg)


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sMfaksAAhz8/UknD5lkxfnI/AAAAAAAAAYw/RVcEZ0EM1Mk/s1600/IMG_1086.JPG (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sMfaksAAhz8/UknD5lkxfnI/AAAAAAAAAYw/RVcEZ0EM1Mk/s1600/IMG_1086.JPG)


http://www.lunigiana.net/magia/images/magia_102.jpg (http://www.lunigiana.net/magia/images/magia_102.jpg)

Angela
05-10-14, 18:37
I reviewed all of the pictures in the thread, looking at all the ones large enough for some kind of "classification". I think the ones pertinent to this kind of discussion are the ones with very local surnames or long established pedigrees in the area. This particular set qualifies, and they have very "local" faces as well. Just click on the images to enlarge.

The attachments work, just click on attachment.. I don't know why the picture itself doesn't post for those, however.


6696
6695
There is a younger picture of Loris Bononi as a younger man on Google, but I can't upoad it for some reason:
6697

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6641&d=1411080263&thumb=1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6641&d=1411174645)
He has a very peculiar nose, but other than that, a local face.
6694
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6654&d=1411311897&thumb=1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6654&d=1411311897)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6669&d=1411733812&thumb=1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6669&d=1411733812)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6640&d=1411079248&thumb=1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6640&d=1411174467)

Angela
05-10-14, 18:52
Edited: will be reposted.

A group picture of some of our men:
http://foto.mtb-forum.it/data/500/medium/vincitori_cat_M4.jpg

A famous citizen:
http://www.bagnonemia.com/Negrari_On_Andrea/Foto_negrari_andrea03.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3845/14770556497_e726b14d9b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3855/14956757862_5b62d60e1f.jpg

Angela
05-10-14, 19:06
Series continued:

Andrea Calevo-there are lots of pictures on Google. This one shows him partly in profile. Unfortunately, I can't post it directly for some reason:
http://genova.ogginotizie.it/GUI/file_contenuti/457510_andrea%20calevo%202.jpg

6699

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6671&d=1411732194&thumb=1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6671&d=1411740354)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6656&d=1411312612&thumb=1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6656&d=1411312612)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6642&d=1411079999&thumb=1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6642&d=1411174778)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6655&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1411312161 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6655&d=1411312161)


I'm going to scream if these don't post, as I've dumped all my attachments. It's a good thing it rained all day yesterday!

Anyway, there they are Mars...What do you think?

Angela
05-10-14, 19:09
I hope this picture of Calevo does post:
6693
His eyes are blue if it matters.

Perhaps Moesan can chime in about "typology". I'm hopeless...I did spend some time going through the writings of the old school anthropologists, and there was disagreement among them and even some internal inconsistency within the work of the individuals themselves.

I hate to even mention some of these people, as they seem to have a reputation as a bunch of racists, but according to Madison Grant's map, this particular area is basically Alpine, with some hot spots of "Nordic", and it borders the more "Mediterranean" western Liguria.

Czekanowsky? sees the whole Ligurian coast as "Mediterranean" with Alpine only up toward Emilia it looks like. I'm not sure about that...not if my pictures are accurate, and I think they are.

Deniker is different again, with Atlanto-Med along the coast, and Dinaric and Occidental to the north but still within the area. By Occidental he apparently meant something corresponding to Czekanowski's Lapponoid race, which was supposedly the race of the paleolithic inhabitants of Europe, with scattered remnants throughout the continent. I see what he's getting at here...some of us have those square or rectangular broad faces with robust bones and strong jaws which certainly don't fit my understanding of Med types, but don't fit what I'm gathering is the "round" Alpine type either.

I don't get this "Dinaric" thing. If its definition depends on a really short head with no occiput, then we don't have any, or at least we have very few. Likewise if it means a curved nose. Long noses we have, but they're totally straight, some high rooted, some not, some rather narrow all the way down, some broader at the tip, but I see those noses on virtually every Greek and Roman statue of the Classical Age, which would make every one of them "Dinaric".

I think I mentioned upthread that from my personal experience, Biasutti's map of pigmentation in Italy is spot on:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/BiasuttiMappa.png/250px-BiasuttiMappa.png

I'm therefore inclined to think that he has a similarly acute grasp of Italian genetics in terms of these "types".
http://s18.postimg.org/oiqyxcujt/razzeeuropabiasutti1954.jpg
I think that area of "Med" type is down toward Lucca if I'm not mistaken.

Which brings me to the fact, to be blunt, that the "classifications" done on Anthroboards, from my limited exposure to them, are "hooey". If you're going to do this, it seems to me you should be going with one of the creators of this scheme, and not making up terms and definitions as you please. As just one example, the maps I've seen show "Atlanto Med" as having a very small presence in Iberia, yet every Iberian is classified as Atlanto-Med on these Boards. If their face is at all wide, they're "Atlantid" whatever that is. All Italians are Dinaro something.

If the "classifiers" didn't know the place of origin of the people in the photos, I bet that more than 50% of the classifications would change. If the pictures were all photoshopped to a grey color tone, most of the 'classifications' done by these people would be wrong.

Anyway, that's my take on it. The only person I've encountered who seems to have a grasp of this is Moesan, so I hope he chimes in...

Hauteville
06-12-14, 17:19
Some foreign in that video though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUuh4qa1ty4

Angela
06-12-14, 18:00
Indeed. We have quite a contingent of newcomers recently, as do many places in Italy.
http://sprarlunigiana.blogspot.com/

They're quite easy for us to spot, but I have no doubt they will show up on some anthrofora Board or other as examples of "native" or "indigenous" phenotypes. :grin: That's all in addition to the internal immigration, of course. You're pretty likely even in the hinterlands of the Lunigiana to find scallili (strufoli) being sold, and you can find pretty good cassata too, not to mention what's available in La Spezia. :smile:

There are some issues with these new immigrants in the local schools, although attempts are being made, often precisely through those schools, to integrate them into the local culture.


The festival in a place like Fivizzano, which is based on a "neighborhood" system somewhat like that of Siena, has, or at least used to have, stricter rules about participation in these kinds of events.

Hauteville
06-12-14, 18:10
Eh yes, today is a bit difficult to post a crowd pic or a video without foreigner of mixed people. So are you from Lunigiana?good place :P

Angela
06-12-14, 19:27
Ah, do you know it? So far as I can tell from genealogical research, all of my mother's mother's people, and some of my mother's father's people have lived in the Lunigiana since at least the mid 1500's. Some of my mother's father's people originated from closer to La Spezia, and there are a few gaps in that line, mainly because of the destruction of many of the records during the war, but most originally, I think, from "La Terra di Luni".

I was born in the Central Lunigiana, (very near one of the presumed ancestral towns of la famiglia Buonaparte) and spent my childhood in the central Lungiana and around La Spezia, where generations of the men in my family have worked, usually with some connection to the Arsenale. and have never broken my ties. All my summers were spent there before I started working full time, and I never let more than a few months pass between visits. I just spent two wonderful months there this summer, although I do often take trips to other areas of Italy while I'm there. Even my children feel quite at home, although the ties are loosening for them, unfortunately. Hopefully, I may someday retire or partly retire somewhere near by although to be honest I would prefer a larger, more cosmopolitan place like Genova. It will depend on the situation when that day comes...

My father's entire family comes from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano (and a few from the Appennino Reggiano). No one seems to have moved in or out from the early 1500's until the twentieth century at least, when, for example, my father's family moved to Sarzana, where he was born. In some ways, although he of course kept up his relationships with his people from the mountains, my father identified as much, if not more, with Liguria and Toscana as he did with Parma.

Hauteville
06-12-14, 19:56
Yes i know perfectly all Italy and the irredentist lands :embarassed:

Angela
06-12-14, 20:27
Yes i know perfectly all Italy and the irredentist lands :embarassed:

Well, knowing of it is one thing...I was sort of asking whether you'd ever been there. It's not exactly a tourist hot spot!:grin:

Ah, Italia irredenta...now you're bringing up memories of my father. :smile:

The only part I want back is Nizza and the surrounding territory, not that they'd be willing to join us, I'm afraid. :disappointed: As far as I'm concerned, Austria can have most of the Trentino back, but I suppose that will never happen, as they have the best of both worlds.

Hauteville
06-12-14, 21:03
Eheh Istria, Malta, Corsica, Ticino other irredentist lands :P

Pax Augusta
05-01-15, 12:00
Liguria is the swarthiest part of North Italy AFAIK.

Romagna and some areas of Emilian Po Valley are the swarthiest part of North Italy according to Biasutti map, swarthier than Liguria, Tuscany, Northern Umbria and Northern Marche.

Angela
06-01-15, 16:35
Romagna and some areas of Emilian Po Valley are the swarthiest part of North Italy according to Biasutti map, swarthier than Liguria, Tuscany, Northern Umbria and Northern Marche.

You're going by the Livi map, I take it?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/BiasuttiMappa.gif

I've wondered about possible explanations for that, but never came to any actual conclusions.

For example, is it possible that it has something to do with the Byzantines? For Romagna I suppose it's a possibility, given this....
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Mappa_italia_bizantina_e_longobarda.svg/518px-Mappa_italia_bizantina_e_longobarda.svg.png

However, everything we're learning seems to indicate that small amounts of admixture in historic times probably have very little impact on the overall genetic pattern.

Even if this were true, it wouldn't explain the strip in the Valley from Parma to Piacenza, though.

I've even wondered whether it has something to do with solar radiation levels, given what we know about the correlation of UV rays with skin pigmentation. There seems to be a lighter area which corresponds to mountainous regions, particularly if you look at the Ligurian Alps/northern Apennines, in comparison to the lowland valleys. Cavalli/Sforza always maintained that there was no "autosomal" genetic difference between the people in the plain and the people in the mountains in the case of Emilia. Rather, he felt that the differences were based on founder effect and drift.
http://www.newquayweather.com/solarpv/images/SolarGIS-Solar-map-Europe-en.png

Or perhaps slightly different groups had a preference for certain eco-zones. The newly arriving shepherd peoples might have migrated to familiar terrain.

Pax Augusta
07-01-15, 03:56
You're going by the Livi map, I take it?

Yes.

The original Biasutti map (Renato Biasutti, Razze e popoli della Terra, II, p. 73, UTET, Torino 1967). Biasutti based his own maps on the previous works of Ridolfo Livi.

http://tinypic.com/6p9i7d.jpg

Angela
05-05-19, 21:57
Some new ones. I hope the site doesn't eat these up over time.

https://i.imgur.com/0ax3ODe.png

https://i.imgur.com/7gV5Tqh.png

]https://i.imgur.com/zF3h2Js.png

https://i.imgur.com/Ug6dWyM.png

https://i.imgur.com/3cHVhsu.png

https://i.imgur.com/SpEWRlN.png

https://i.imgur.com/RI2CjCf.png

https://i.imgur.com/NcuSGB7.png]https://i.imgur.com/SI76ulh.png

https://i.imgur.com/gKaZpes.png

https://i.imgur.com/LKJSQo5.png


The girl:
https://i.imgur.com/mZ5mNH2.png

https://i.imgur.com/n4XBgur.png

https://i.imgur.com/c4wrksP.png

https://i.imgur.com/zVbonJw.png

https://i.imgur.com/xlrvpF0.png

https://i.imgur.com/kkwUGv3.png

https://i.imgur.com/F5abhPy.png

A local politician I swear! :)
https://i.imgur.com/yzDQWPR.png

https://i.imgur.com/6B89AJO.png

https://i.imgur.com/EYibkYE.png

https://i.imgur.com/Guj3E2K.png

https://i.imgur.com/WHwLwwn.png
]https://i.imgur.com/1QPEaE7.png

https://i.imgur.com/DZKiqcB.png

https://i.imgur.com/p6mlv8H.png

https://i.imgur.com/VcmwIJf.png

frontiersman
11-06-19, 13:56
I imagine there are many immigrants from Lunigiana in Spezia as the SP province went from 95k people to 200k people in half a century.
the Livi map is quite crappy. I can't believe Liguria is lighter than Val Seriana near BG.

Angela
11-06-19, 15:17
There are a lot of people from the Lunigiana who now live in La Spezia. Lots of people from Toscana further south as well, and from the Ligurian villages further west. My own father's family from the Apennines of Emilia moved there when they returned from America; he was born in Sarzana. Then we got lots of migrants from southern Italy as well, and not only to La Spezia, but to the Lunigiana as well. My cousin married one of them. One family even bought and runs a supposedly "Lunigianese" restaurant in Pontremoli. (None of the "locals" go there.) :)

Of course, there are now Moroccans too.

None of that has anything to do with Livi's map, as the statistics were compiled 160 years ago, before any of those dislocations.

"In 1888 he was entrusted with a vast anthropological investigation to be the carried out on approximately 300,000 military classes of 1859 and 1863. He concluded his work in 'Antropometria Militare',[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridolfo_Livi#cite_note-2) which consisted of two volumes, the first in 1896 and second in 1905."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridolfo_Livi

This is the Biasutti map using Livi's much earlier data:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/BiasuttiMappa.png

I don't know how you could get a more accurate survey. How could individual impressions compete with it?

La Spezia is actually not particularly fair according to that data.

Anecdotally, there is a cline, imo, in "local" Ligurians, i.e. people whom I know whose families have lived there for hundreds of years. Coastal people tend to be darker, while people in the Ligurian Alps, like people in the Emilian Apennines, tend to be fairer. Cavalli-Sforza said in a speech that he thought the Celt Ligures used them as a refuge. Perhaps. Or, it's just old fashioned selection. A very pale skin, which usually goes with light eyes and hair, is not adaptive in the climate of the Ligurian coast, which as a climate is more like southern Italy. It's just great for those mountains, however; lets you get lots more Vitamin D.

As for the pictures in this thread, I specifically labeled it "Native Phenotypes". These people are locals, and yet still, yes, many of the fairer ones are from my Lunigiana.

Angela
11-06-19, 16:02
There are a lot of people from the Lunigiana who now live in La Spezia. Lots of people from Toscana further south as well, and from the Ligurian villages further west. My own father's family from the Apennines of Emilia moved there when they returned from America; he was born in Sarzana. Then we got lots of migrants from southern Italy as well, and not only to La Spezia, but to the Lunigiana as well. My cousin married one of them. One family even bought and runs a supposedly "Lunigianese" restaurant in Pontremoli. (None of the "locals" go there.) :)

Of course, there are now Moroccans too.

None of that has anything to do with Livi's map, as the statistics were compiled 160 years ago, before any of those dislocations.

"In 1888 he was entrusted with a vast anthropological investigation to be the carried out on approximately 300,000 military classes of 1859 and 1863. He concluded his work in 'Antropometria Militare',[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridolfo_Livi#cite_note-2) which consisted of two volumes, the first in 1896 and second in 1905."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridolfo_Livi

This is the Biasutti map using Livi's much earlier data:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/BiasuttiMappa.png

I don't know how you could get a more accurate survey. How could individual impressions compete with it?

La Spezia is actually not particularly fair according to that data.

Anecdotally, there is a cline, imo, in "local" Ligurians, i.e. people whom I know whose families have lived there for hundreds of years. Coastal people tend to be darker, while people in the Ligurian Alps, like people in the Emilian Apennines, tend to be fairer. Cavalli-Sforza said in a speech that he thought the Celt Ligures used them as a refuge. Perhaps. Or, it's just old fashioned selection. A very pale skin, which usually goes with light eyes and hair, is not adaptive in the climate of the Ligurian coast, which as a climate is more like southern Italy. It's just great for those mountains, however; lets you get lots more Vitamin D.

As for the pictures in this thread, I specifically labeled it "Native Phenotypes". These people are locals, and yet still, yes, many of the fairer ones are from my Lunigiana.


If I had to pick a very, very, typical coastal Ligurian/La Spezia face it would be Andrea Calevo, an entrepreneur from an old and wealthy La Spezia family who was kidnapped and held for ransom.

https://i.imgur.com/gy64JPV.png

My mother's father, from La Spezia, was this type.

https://i.imgur.com/moXcxCw.png

With his mother and sister after his release. I'm more the daughter's type (without the very prominent chin), also pretty common both in the Lunigiana and La Spezia.

https://i.imgur.com/ZPs2JyJ.png

frontiersman
16-06-19, 18:59
Angela: do you know what kind of metric they used in the Livi's map to measure hair and eyes color? the scale of Broca? the Fischer Saller scale? the Martin Schultz scale?
I tell you what they used.
short answer: nothing.
long answer: nnnnoooooooootttthhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnn nnnnnggggggggggg.

they did everything by eye. it's not reliable. you can't seriously believe Liguria is fairer than places like Val Seriana or Val Brembana. I've been there. the humidity from the plain condensates creating a micro-climate that's cloudy 300 days a year. the people are fairer than Ligurians. If Ligurians were really fairer then they would be at Austrian-like level. I also have been a substitute teacher in Ferrara and Carpi and they look nothing darker than Tuscany or Umbria.
If you don't use a specific single metric to measure eyes and hair color than what's the point of comparing different populations? Livi had Lombards at 37% light eyes, Schlagenaufen has Swiss Germans at 25% light eyes in the Anthropometria Helvetica. do I really have to believe it?
and Biasutti did not use Livi's data for Trentino-Alto Adige because it was not part of Italy back then. and certainly did not use Livi's data for Swiss Italians or Corsicans because they don't live in Italy.
why are you people so low IQ to not notice these details? :sad-2:

Pax Augusta
16-06-19, 19:18
why are you people so low IQ to not notice these details? :sad-2:


Caviezel aka fulvioterzapi, or whoever you really are, this is not Apricity and neither ABF. Either you learn to argue politely or action will be taken against you.

Fighting in such a rude way about the differences of the hair color due to a few percentage points is really ridiculous.

We can care less about your personal impressions. Also because, everywhere from Rome to the north Italy, there is such a large percentage of non-native people, that personal impressions only are used to legitimize personal agendas.

Angela
16-06-19, 20:36
Angela: do you know what kind of metric they used in the Livi's map to measure hair and eyes color? the scale of Broca? the Fischer Saller scale? the Martin Schultz scale?
I tell you what they used.
short answer: nothing.
long answer: nnnnoooooooootttthhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnn nnnnnggggggggggg.

they did everything by eye. it's not reliable. you can't seriously believe Liguria is fairer than places like Val Seriana or Val Brembana. I've been there. the humidity from the plain condensates creating a micro-climate that's cloudy 300 days a year. the people are fairer than Ligurians. If Ligurians were really fairer then they would be at Austrian-like level. I also have been a substitute teacher in Ferrara and Carpi and they look nothing darker than Tuscany or Umbria.
If you don't use a specific single metric to measure eyes and hair color than what's the point of comparing different populations? Livi had Lombards at 37% light eyes, Schlagenaufen has Swiss Germans at 25% light eyes in the Anthropometria Helvetica. do I really have to believe it?
and Biasutti did not use Livi's data for Trentino-Alto Adige because it was not part of Italy back then. and certainly did not use Livi's data for Swiss Italians or Corsicans because they don't live in Italy.
why are you people so low IQ to not notice these details? :sad-2:

Let me be even more blunt than Pax. If you think I give nordicists from other countries short shrift on this forum, you think I'm going to allow it from some Lega Nord extremist from Lombardia? Go back to theapricity or forum biodiversity or Stormfront if they'll have you, which I doubt.

I don't give a darn about your subjective viewpoints of people's hair color in parts of Italy in 2019. I give credence to a study of 300,000 young men 160 years ago before all the internal migration.

I'm not tracking this because I give a damn who is blonde or who isn't. Unlike Nordicist idiots I put no "value" on it. It's just useful as another tool to use, albeit a flawed for, for the study of population genetics.

As for the Alto Adige, except for the Italians who moved there after it was annexed, the people there aren't Italian, were never Italian, and I wish they'd take themselves back over the border. The people of the Ticino all virtually Lombards. If they don't want to be Italians and want to stay in Switzerland, screw them. Why should we include them in our statistics? Let the Swiss do their own statistics. Clear enough?

Sorry if you're having trouble on Stormfront, but you should pick your associates better.

Now, you either cut out this crap, and post on subjects of scientific value civilly, or you're going to find it very tough going here. Not only will you get infractions for insulting other members as you just did, but also for creating disruption or discord. You will find really stupid, non-scientific posts deleted so that the reputation of this site doesn't suffer.

Got it?

You want to post here? Great, but STICK TO THE RULES.

Now, it's Father's Day. Don't freaking bother me again with this nonsense.