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arvistro
24-09-14, 22:07
There are two guys from Latvia
1) do they look of same ethnicity or different? Can you name what ethnicity or what ethnicities?
2) in which countries they would pass as locals?
3) what else can you tell of them based on anthropology?

6658

Sile
25-09-14, 08:00
latvians as you stated

LeBrok
25-09-14, 08:08
latvians as you stated
Lol, I was going to write the same answer. Obviously he meant citizens of Latvia. Ethnically they could be Russians, Jews, Lithuanians, Estonians, or something else.

arvistro
25-09-14, 08:47
latvians as you stated
Good one! :)
Nationality is Latvian indeed.

So, summing up both of you - those guys are pretty much Eastern Baltic mix? And would fit anywhere there?
I was also hoping for some anthropological answer, hope someone comes who can explain size of heads and stuff :)

Angela
25-09-14, 17:03
While I would have guessed that the man on the right was Baltic in origin, I would have been more unsure about the man on the left.

I am far from expert on the phenotyes of Latvians, but the man on the left seems to be a different "type": longer, leaner face, longer nose, much higher forehead, different eyes, what looks to be a longer, narrower skull, taller and more gracile body build. I would have guessed he was from somewhere either to the west of the Balkans, or perhaps more to the south, while still remaining in eastern Europe.

MOESAN
25-09-14, 18:55
at first sight both show admixture of Northern Europe:
left: more british, maybe more Scottish, but it is based upon little
right: more German, maybe Dutch

they don't look too "Baltic", and even less Russian - but TRUE Lettons/Latvians were different from Russian, and even if between Lithuanians and Estonians, they had some traits of their own (more old 'cromagnoid', more 'cromagnoid borreby', less 'brünnoid borreby', less others than their neighbours), so, KNOWING THAT INDIVIDUALS CAN BE BORDERLINE IN A POPULATION, I would say they can be genuine Latvians, even if is could amaze somebody...
genetic redistribution of admixture in individuals makes they could even be brothers!
I recall here that today Latvians personal names, are about 66% russian, even if a lot have been given a supplementary -S at their tails
just for the fun

MOESAN
25-09-14, 18:56
I add I'm almost sure they are brothers: look at their spectacles!

arvistro
25-09-14, 21:10
at first sight both show admixture of Northern Europe:
left: more british, maybe more Scottish, but it is based upon little
right: more German, maybe Dutch

they don't look too "Baltic", and even less Russian - but TRUE Lettons/Latvians were different from Russian, and even if between Lithuanians and Estonians, they had some traits of their own (more old 'cromagnoid', more 'cromagnoid borreby', less 'brünnoid borreby', less others than their neighbours), so, KNOWING THAT INDIVIDUALS CAN BE BORDERLINE IN A POPULATION, I would say they can be genuine Latvians, even if is could amaze somebody...
Ok, I will give more info on the man on the right. It is me, of course one of them was supposed to be and is me :) Trying to find out more of myself. To add for true Lettons, all my 16 (or even 32) lines have lived in Eastern Latvia on XIX century or so, they were all ethnic Latgallians. It is kind of boring, no mysteries or ancient kings in my bloodline :)
For me I have always had the biggest head whenever I am, all hats of other people were too small for me. I actually think I would fit for East Baltic role model.
In UK though strangers thought I was Polish. But probably every whitish non-German for them is Polish :)



genetic redistribution of admixture in individuals makes they could even be brothers!
I recall here that today Latvians personal names, are about 66% russian, even if a lot have been given a supplementary -S at their tails
just for the fun
I can't argue that. ~30% of Latvian population was imported during Soviet. Ethnic Latvians however don't tend to have Russian names/surnames, maybe 10-20% of them. Most surnames in Baltics were given on XIX century by our German speaking lords in Vidzeme, Kurzeme and Polish speaking lords in Latgale (where I am from). So most surnames are German, Polish or local birds, animals, etc.
As to first names, I would argue 66% are Latvian (as in non-Russian). Mostly Latvianized Bible names (Jānis, Pēteris, etc) or Brittish (Roberts is extremely popular). Ten most popular names are - Roberts (LV), Gustavs (LV), Artjoms (RU), Markuss (LV/RU), Daniels (LV/RU), Ralfs (LV), Aleksandrs (RU/..lv), Maksims (RU), Emīls (LV), Kārlis (LV) - in brackets my estimate of whether LV or RU parents named the kid.

arvistro
25-09-14, 21:30
While I would have guessed that the man on the right was Baltic in origin, I would have been more unsure about the man on the left.

I am far from expert on the phenotyes of Latvians, but the man on the left seems to be a different "type": longer, leaner face, longer nose, much higher forehead, different eyes, what looks to be a longer, narrower skull, taller and more gracile body build. I would have guessed he was from somewhere either to the west of the Balkans, or perhaps more to the south, while still remaining in eastern Europe.
Yes, in less scientific language man on the left seems relatively elfish and on the right dwarvish :)

MOESAN
26-09-14, 15:37
Ok, I will give more info on the man on the right. It is me, of course one of them was supposed to be and is me :) Trying to find out more of myself. To add for true Lettons, all my 16 (or even 32) lines have lived in Eastern Latvia on XIX century or so, they were all ethnic Latgallians. It is kind of boring, no mysteries or ancient kings in my bloodline :)
For me I have always had the biggest head whenever I am, all hats of other people were too small for me. I actually think I would fit for East Baltic role model.
In UK though strangers thought I was Polish. But probably every whitish non-German for them is Polish :)


I can't argue that. ~30% of Latvian population was imported during Soviet. Ethnic Latvians however don't tend to have Russian names/surnames, maybe 10-20% of them. Most surnames in Baltics were given on XIX century by our German speaking lords in Vidzeme, Kurzeme and Polish speaking lords in Latgale (where I am from). So most surnames are German, Polish or local birds, animals, etc.
As to first names, I would argue 66% are Latvian (as in non-Russian). Mostly Latvianized Bible names (Jānis, Pēteris, etc) or Brittish (Roberts is extremely popular). Ten most popular names are - Roberts (LV), Gustavs (LV), Artjoms (RU), Markuss (LV/RU), Daniels (LV/RU), Ralfs (LV), Aleksandrs (RU/..lv), Maksims (RU), Emīls (LV), Kārlis (LV) - in brackets my estimate of whether LV or RU parents named the kid.

I'm not sure I have well understood all your answer - Is the man on left Latvian too, as I said it was possible???
concerning phenotypes elements in populations, Germanic people of some regions (so Scandinavians too) have some common components, we find also in Finnland and everywhere in Northern Europe, but at different %'s - it would not be difficult to find people with the same features in these areas -
concerning names, you have maybe the good answer: I said 66% (proxi) for russian names but in fact, polish names adapted to latvian rules could give the same as some russian names do (except the -ovs names, seldom or absent in Poland)
concerning the so called 'est-baltic' type of anthropologist, it's for me a mean artifice involving the two 'borreby's models (1- cromagnoid more steep frontal, broader jaws, less broader cheekbones + (less numerous) 2- brünnoid like, the contrary in details, with more brutal frontal and browridges, + accretions of smaller types as a type between 'europoids' and 'mongoloids' surely common among proto-Finnic-Ugric people (Ural) + accretions of a danubian type close to some 'mediterranean' first agricultors of S-E Europe - Latvians, it seem to me, have little or nothing of these last accretions, contrary to some Finns and northeastern Slavs - I suppose the 2 'borreby' types are confused into 'mesolithical-northern european' autosomals component (the second could show a bit more ANE?) and the uralic type could have shown some ANE elements too... but it's all bets
thanks for kind answer

arvistro
26-09-14, 22:58
I'm not sure I have well understood all your answer - Is the man on left Latvian too, as I said it was possible???
The man on the left. I will keep some mystery around him. Want to see what countries other people would place him as fit.



concerning phenotypes elements in populations, Germanic people of some regions (so Scandinavians too) have some common components, we find also in Finnland and everywhere in Northern Europe, but at different %'s - it would not be difficult to find people with the same features in these areas -
So, you say I could be seen as local anywhere in Northern Europe? Others stated some Eastern Europeanness in me :)


concerning the so called 'est-baltic' type of anthropologist, it's for me a mean artifice involving the two 'borreby's models (1- cromagnoid more steep frontal, broader jaws, less broader cheekbones + (less numerous) 2- brünnoid like, the contrary in details, with more brutal frontal and browridges, + accretions of smaller types as a type between 'europoids' and 'mongoloids' surely common among proto-Finnic-Ugric people (Ural) + accretions of a danubian type close to some 'mediterranean' first agricultors of S-E Europe - Latvians, it seem to me, have little or nothing of these last accretions, contrary to some Finns and northeastern Slavs - I suppose the 2 'borreby' types are confused into 'mesolithical-northern european' autosomals component (the second could show a bit more ANE?) and the uralic type could have shown some ANE elements too... but it's all bets
thanks for kind answer
So the main difference for Latvians vs Finns/Northeastern Slavs is not having "accretions of a danubian type close to some 'mediterranean' first agricultors of S-E Europe"?

p.s.
As to Latvian sports people requested in pm not from Riga. Difficult, over 80% are born in Riga for ice hockey team. Over 80% are ethnic Russians for soccer team.
Jānis Timma - basketball - http://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81nis_Timma (actually all our basketball team is 100% Latvian, but mostly from Riga)
Kaspars Kambala - basketball - http://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaspars_Kambala (born in Riga, but I suppose lived and grown up in Jelgava)
Sandis Ozolinsh - our main star ice hockey - http://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandis_Ozoli%C5%86%C5%A1 (born in Riga, but both parents ethnic Latvians I guess)
Artūrs Irbe - our other star ice hockey - https://www.google.lv/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Art%C5%ABrs+Irbe (again born in Riga)
Helmuts Balderis - ice hockey star from Soviet times - https://www.google.lv/?gws_rd=ssl#q=helmuts%20balderis
Māris Štrombergs - bmx, 2 times olympic champion - https://www.google.lv/?gws_rd=ssl#q=M%C4%81ris+%C5%A0trombergs (born Valmiera)
ok, they are all somewhat similar, but there are other types of Latvians:
Valdis Valters - basketball star from Soviet times - https://www.google.lv/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Valdis+Valters (born Riga, ok, seems same type as others :D, thought he looked somewhat more Southern)
Kaspars Daugaviņš - other good ice hockey - https://www.google.lv/?gws_rd=ssl#q=kaspars+daugavi%C5%86%C5%A1 (this might be different type)
Mārtiņš Karsums - another ice hockey - https://www.google.lv/?gws_rd=ssl#q=m%C4%81rti%C5%86%C5%A1+karsums

Hope it helps :) In general if you want more ethnic Latvians you just need to search for guys from Latvia with non-Slavic names (surnames might be Polish though). Valdis Dombrovskis, former prime minister as example.

arvistro
03-10-14, 21:49
OK, I see nobody will say anything else. So, both guys are ethnic Latvians. Both guys are brothers. But from different fathers. My biological father is from Eastern Latvia in many generations, my brother's dad is from Lithuania and my brother has one of specific Lithuanian looks (tall, light eyes, not light hair). Our mother is also from Eastern Latvia in many generations.
If I might guess, if looks has anything to do with haplos, I could be N1C Baltic and he R1A Baltic. But we have not tested yet.