Modern populations and neolithic farmers?

Mars

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I'm wondering what contemporary population has the clearest connection to the farmers who came to Europe 8,000 years ago from the Fertile Crescent. Any ideas?
 
Well, since the academics say over and over again that the ancient samples we have cluster with modern day Sardinians, I suppose they're the best candidate.

Here's the PCA from Lazaridis et al:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...t_three_ancestral_populations_Fig1b_small.png

It's too small an image, but if you enlarge it on your computer you can see what I mean.
Probably better to take a look at it in the paper.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/full/nature13673.html

Or we can go with EEF levels:
View attachment 6673

Ashkenazi 93%, Sicilians 90%, Sardinians 82%, Spanish 81%, Greeks 79% and down from there.

The Sicilians score higher because of additional "doses" they got later, probably mostly, although not only during the Metal Ages through mainland Greece and the Islands as vectors. (The Maltese would fit in here as well.)

The Ashkenazi are a special case. It's complicated. They may be preserving the genetic signal of the ancient Near East better than other populations.
 
Well, since the academics say over and over again that the ancient samples we have cluster with modern day Sardinians, I suppose they're a good candidate.

Or we can go with EEF levels:
View attachment 6673

But don't forget that EEF is a hybrid of the Neolithic component and of the Mesolithic WHG component. Therefore it might not best represent the Basal Eurasian component, considering the fact that EEF is merely a hybrid.
 
We don't have the genome of an early farmer in the Near East. The closest we have is Stuttgart. Plus, we don't know yet where the various elements came together to form EEF. For all we know, it could have all happened in the Near East.

One can only answer questions based on the currently available data.
 
We don't have the genome of an early farmer in the Near East. The closest we have is Stuttgart. Plus, we don't know yet where the various elements came together to form EEF. For all we know, it could have all happened in the Near East.

One can only answer questions based on the currently available data.

Alright, but from what I know one of the components that make up EEF is a Mesolithic component that is WHG like, please correct me if I'm wrong though.
 
Thanks for your replies folks, but they lead me to one more question... What is basal eurasian? Pardon my ignorance...
 
Thanks for your replies folks, but they lead me to one more question... What is basal eurasian? Pardon my ignorance...

You can read the paper that discusses the concept at David Reich's Harvard genetics website. I'd give you the link, except that I'm having trouble with my new computer. But just search under David Reich.
 
Sardinians are a near-perfect (~99%) genetic snapshot of people in Southern Europe before the "ANE" migration into Europe ("Ancient North Eurasian"--sometimes associated with Y-DNA haplogroup R and/or Indo-European languages, although not always exclusively). Every other group, including Sicilians, Ashkenazi Jews, and Basques, have significantly more ANE. The only thing that keeps the Sardinians from having the most Neolithic farmer ancestry is that they also have significant European hunter-gatherer mixed in (~17%).
 
Alright, but from what I know one of the components that make up EEF is a Mesolithic component that is WHG like, please correct me if I'm wrong though.

I don't see how any of that changes the answer to the question, but...

Lazaridis et al found that this model is the best fit for the evidence we have so far:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YbYK8NzQNAY/UrihRsR5eSI/AAAAAAAAJbo/TYynaV4cO4Y/s1600/model.png

As you can see, EEF is estimated to possess 44% plus or minus 10% "Basal Eurasian". The rest is from the "West Eurasian" branch from which WHG also stemmed. So the additional lineage or lineages would be related to WHG.

Some admixture might and probably did take place in Europe, (10-20%?) but the farmers in the Near East would have already been an admixture of "Basal Eurasian" and some Unknown Hunter Gatherers from the same ancient branch of humanity as the WHGs of Europe. (Mind, the Basal Eurasians would also have been hunter gatherers. People seem to have trouble keeping in mind that everyone was once a hunter-gatherer. We don't know if the "Basal Eurasians" alone developed farming. I would doubt it; I think they are much too old for that. So, the inventors of farming and animal husbandry, upon which all of the remainder of our history is built, would have most likely been an admixture of "Basal Eurasian" HG and "West Eurasian" HG.)

This is all discussed in the supplement starting on page 59.
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2013/12/23/001552.DC1/001552-3.pdf

.
As we get more ancient genomes, I'm sure that their models will change. That's one of the hallmarks of this group.
 
Ed. Could a moderator please remove this? It's a double post. Thanks.



I don't see how any of that changes the answer to the question, but...

Lazaridis et al found that this model is the best fit for the evidence we have so far:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YbYK8NzQNAY/UrihRsR5eSI/AAAAAAAAJbo/TYynaV4cO4Y/s1600/model.png

As you can see, EEF is estimated to possess 44% plus or minus 10% "Basal Eurasian". The rest is from the "West Eurasian" branch from which WHG also stemmed. So the additional lineage or lineages would be related to WHG.

Some admixture might and probably did take place in Europe, (10-20%?) but the farmers in the Near East would have already been an admixture of "Basal Eurasian" and some Unknown Hunter Gatherers from the same ancient branch of humanity as the WHGs of Europe. (Mind, the Basal Eurasians would also have been hunter gatherers. People seem to have trouble keeping in mind that everyone was once a hunter-gatherer. We don't know if the "Basal Eurasians" alone developed farming. I would doubt it; I think they are much too old for that. So, the inventors of farming and animal husbandry, upon which all of the remainder of our history is built, would have most likely been an admixture of "Basal Eurasian" HG and "West Eurasian" HG.)

This is all discussed in the supplement starting on page 59.
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2013/12/23/001552.DC1/001552-3.pdf

As we get more ancient genomes, I'm sure that their models will change. That's one of the hallmarks of this group.

Oh, I see... Thanks for the detailed information, from this map I can see that EEF component isn't exactly descended from WHG, but from a related HG which stems from the same common ancestor with WHG (west Eurasian), as well as from Basal Eurasian thanks. Yeah, we must remember that we still don't know everything, and that not all the cards are on the table yet.

P.S This means that most of the EEF component is descended from this unknown west Eurasian HG, and only 10% of it (plus minus 44%) comes from the Basal Eurasians?
 
This is a link to the 2013 preprint which contains a link to the Supplement where the meat of the analysis can be found. The published 2014 version is behind a paywall.
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552.figures-only

For discussions of Basal Eurasian, just use the search engine here.

Here is one thread where it was discussed...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...esent-day-Europeans?highlight=Basal+Eurasians

If you read the supplement carefully, you'll see that Lazaridis tried to use far southern Bedouins as the reference population because they have so little ANE, but the problem is that they are recently SSA admixed, so it wasn't really satisfactory.

I think we're really just going to have to wait for some more ancient genomes. Problem is, the warmer the climate the less likely they survive.
 
This is a link to the 2013 preprint which contains a link to the Supplement where the meat of the analysis can be found. The published 2014 version is behind a paywall.
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552.figures-only

For discussions of Basal Eurasian, just use the search engine here.

Here is one thread where it was extensively discussed...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...esent-day-Europeans?highlight=Basal+Eurasians

If you read the supplement carefully, you'll see that Lazaridis tried to use far southern Bedouins as the reference population, but the problem is that they are recently SSA admixed, so it wasn't really satisfactory.

I think we're really just going to have to wait for some more ancient genomes. Problem is, the warmer the climate the less likely they survive.

Alright thanks. Then it's a sort of race against time. :-/
 
@Angela I was wondering, I used to check Dienekes for new studies, but he seems to be inactive, is there another blog that uploads the newest studies?
 
EEF is estimated to have 44% Basal,plus or minus 10%.

As for Martin at DnaTribes that's just one speculation among many. It could all be shifted northward, and they could have been in Arabia all that time. The poster "Parasar" at Anthrogenica even holds out for a southeastern European refuge, although he's decidedly in the minority.

Far wiser to stick with Lazaridis, imo, and just say we don't know yet.

Even the details of the exodus from Africa posited by Dna Tribes are not universally accepted.
See: http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/09/an-archaeological-scenario-for-out-of.html

I personally take all the DnaTribes analyses with a lot of salt,forget a grain. Look at the hash he made with that first STR based ancestry tool. I am probably the only user for whom it actually worked.

As to where recent papers can be found, Dienekes still posts the ones that particularly interest him, but not as many as he used to do, and he no longer provides commentary.(The authors would sometimes get into the discussions as well, which was wonderful.) I know some schools and educators that were using it as a guide. It's a great pity it's so inactive.

Some are also posted at Anthrogenica, but it's such a confusing site to use...

Of course, you could always be a complete nerd like me and get news feeds about archaeology, genetics, psychology papers etc.:)
 
EEF is estimated to have 44% Basal,plus or minus 10%.

As for Martin at DnaTribes that's just one speculation among many. It could all be shifted northward, and they could have been in Arabia all that time. The poster "Parasar" at Anthrogenica even holds out for a southeastern European refuge, although he's decidedly in the minority.

Far wiser to stick with Lazaridis, imo, and just say we don't know yet.

Even the details of the exodus from Africa posited by Dna Tribes are not universally accepted.
See: http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/09/an-archaeological-scenario-for-out-of.html

I personally take all the DnaTribes analyses with a lot of salt,forget a grain. Look at the hash he made with that first STR based ancestry tool. I am probably the only user for whom it actually worked.

As to where recent papers can be found, Dienekes still posts the ones that particularly interest him, but not as many as he used to do, and he no longer provides commentary.(The authors would sometimes get into the discussions as well, which was wonderful.) I know some schools and educators that were using it as a guide. It's a great pity it's so inactive.

Some are also posted at Anthrogenica, but it's such a confusing site to use...

Of course, you could always be a complete nerd like me and get news feeds about archaeology, genetics, psychology papers etc.:)

Oh, it's 44% Basal Eurasian plus/minus 10%, pardon me. LOL, assuming I want to be a complete nerd, how will I start getting news feeds about archaeology, genetics etc? :p
 
Oh, it's 44% Basal Eurasian plus/minus 10%, pardon me. LOL, assuming I want to be a complete nerd, how will I start getting news feeds about archaeology, genetics etc? :p

Well, there's Science Daily, for example, which provides a daily feed, or The National Geographic organization, or the Council of British Archaeology, or the one on Biblical Archaeology, or if you want it in audio, there's the Archaeology Channel. That's a good one, because you can listen as you do more mundane things. That's just for a start. Just google news feeds with your area of interest and things should pop up.

Then you can follow certain people on twitter, although I don't do that much, as it makes me feel like a stalker!

The problem is not access; the problem is the time to read and understand the papers. Then there's literature, and film and music, and most important, of course, family and friends. Then there's the little things like work, and cleaning and cooking and eating etc...It helps if you can multi-task...it also helps if you don't sleep much. :grin:
 
Well, there's Science Daily, for example, which provides a daily feed, or The National Geographic organization, or the Council of British Archaeology, or the one on Biblical Archaeology, or if you want it in audio, there's the Archaeology Channel. That's a good one, because you can listen as you do more mundane things. That's just for a start. Just google news feeds with your area of interest and things should pop up.

Then you can follow certain people on twitter, although I don't do that much, as it makes me feel like a stalker!

The problem is not access; the problem is the time to read and understand the papers. Then there's literature, and film and music, and most important, of course, family and friends. Then there's the little things like work, and cleaning and cooking and eating etc...It helps if you can multi-task...it also helps if you don't sleep much. :grin:

Lol thanks, I'll check those sites out. :)

Edit: Science daily fits me best, I just don't have enough time to daily check so many pages. :p
 
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Basal Eurasian peaks among Arabs. Israeli Beduins from the HGDP panel score 90% ENF and 10% East African.
 
Basal Eurasian peaks among Arabs. Israeli Beduins from the HGDP panel score 90% ENF and 10% East African.

Via which study/calculator? May I have a link? What do Ashkenazi Jews get according to HGDP?

My results for: Eurogenes_ANE K7 Admixture Proportions:


Revised 2014-Sep-12

Population
ANE 8.38%
ASE 1.83%
WHG-UHG 32.72%
East_Eurasian 0.14%
West_African 0.57%
East_African 0.91%
ENF 55.44%
 

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