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MOESAN
02-10-14, 23:33
6674

Galin TASJEV footballer Bulgaria (a bit South-West Asian or Red Sea, no?)

MOESAN
03-10-14, 00:01
other try

6675
a type of "borreby" on the cromagnoid side: frequent enough in estern Norway, can be found too in Germany (more Northern), the Netherlands, and also in Western Finland or Estonia or Latvia - not impossible at all in any North Europe country - the very light blond often associated to this type is maybe not general: maybe a cumulative effect other mutation associated to a first one producing middle-light hues only ?...

Angela
03-10-14, 00:32
6674

Galin TASJEV footballer Bulgaria (a bit South-West Asian or Red Sea, no?)


Why any more so than any other Mediterranean looking person? He's darker than average, but perhaps that's a tan.

This is another picture of him...
http://en.botevplovdiv.bg/i/oplayers/1046.jpg

There's a lot of bones in that nose it seems to me. It only looks sort of flat from the front. Or maybe I don't know what you mean by "Red Sea" looking?

He just looks like someone from the Balkans to me...the only thing a little different might be the mouth. On the other hand, orthodontic care isn't very widespread in some parts of Europe, not like here, where every other kid needs braces costing $10,000!

As for the blonde athlete...I know lots of Italians who have faces as broad as that and jaws and foreheads like that. It's just the nose that's different, and usually the pigmentation.

Sorry, Moesan, I don't like to be negative where you're concerned, but I'm a skeptic about these kinds of classifications, I'm afraid.

If anyone can persuade me that there's something to it, it will be you, however. :)

arvistro
03-10-14, 21:43
other try

6675
a type of "borreby" on the cromagnoid side: frequent enough in estern Norway, can be found too in Germany (more Northern), the Netherlands, and also in Western Finland or Estonia or Latvia - not impossible at all in any North Europe country - the very light blond often associated to this type is maybe not general: maybe a cumulative effect other mutation associated to a first one producing middle-light hues only ?...
Yes, one type of Latvians have similar faces... :)

MOESAN
04-10-14, 00:04
Why any more so than any other Mediterranean looking person? He's darker than average, but perhaps that's a tan.

This is another picture of him...
http://en.botevplovdiv.bg/i/oplayers/1046.jpg

There's a lot of bones in that nose it seems to me. It only looks sort of flat from the front. Or maybe I don't know what you mean by "Red Sea" looking?

He just looks like someone from the Balkans to me...the only thing a little different might be the mouth. On the other hand, orthodontic care isn't very widespread in some parts of Europe, not like here, where every other kid needs braces costing $10,000!

As for the blonde athlete...I know lots of Italians who have faces as broad as that and jaws and foreheads like that. It's just the nose that's different, and usually the pigmentation.

Sorry, Moesan, I don't like to be negative where you're concerned, but I'm a skeptic about these kinds of classifications, I'm afraid.

If anyone can persuade me that there's something to it, it will be you, however. :)

Oooooooo!!! I'm very sad after your observations:
the first man is very S-E mediterranean looking for features, not only for pigmentation - by the way the photo doesn't provide me a secure diagnostic for pigmentation!-
I thought you were more aware of what is typlogy in physical anthropology - His type can be found in Balkans and S-E Europe but is not typical of the Balkans and is very rare too in Western Mediterranea: If you prefer you can call it: 'arab'
concerning the second type, it is uncommon among Italians, at first place in Southern Italy - it 's not absent for historic and prehistoric reasons - the 'cromagnon' basis for this 'borreby 1' was very common in Europe between Paleo- and Mesolithic, in Italy as well as in Spain or elsewhere, in the Balkans and Carpathians too, before diverse evolutions and foreign colonizations - I know some Murcians with very 'cromagnoid' or 'borreby' features, whatever their pigmentation, spite the numeric domination of diverse 'mediterranean' types (a very unprecise term)
It seem to me you counfound physicalbasic types of more ancient human groups (born when isolation was more easy) with more recent ethnies where this ancient types are crossed with others -
I had already said that I CANNOT TELL THE ETHNIC appartenance of na European or "Caucasian" man, even if very often I CAN TELL WHAT HE IS NOT (exclusion) - the cause is very understandable: our ethnies are very often crossings of ancient types AT DIFFERENT LEVEL (SOMETIMES VERY VERY DIFFERENT!!!)sharing all the same basic - but I think these studies are a good complement of autosomals studies because these last ones don't provide us to precise borders between components, because of these already old enough crossings - I see the proof of that in the diverse classifications for autosomals groups as 'mediterranean' or 'western mediterranean' versus 'eastern mediterranean', or 'south-west-asian', 'west-asian' or 'caucasian', 'gedrosia', 'basque', sardinian', even 'atlantic', according to the different namings adopted - the cause is that there have been not only an acient 'continuum' between the regions and the populations concerned explaining their global genetic proximity but also new admixtures between them -
types or only someones of the possible panel - So I can often guess the origin of a human group if its members are of the same "stock" when I cannot do it for an unique individual - I can devine the origin of an Irish or Scottish group (say: 20 men) as well as of an Armemian one but within every groups and even in a unique individual too I can notice (even of the same family) some of the different influences of different primary types (what they called "subraces" in old time) -
hre problme with types is that in a relatively simple combination of few ("homozygotous") types, you can take a stable result of crossing (so "heterozygotous for external features) for a genuine original type ('dinaric' could be this confusng result) - it is true that even what I call a genuine type can have been born by very ancient crossings before any kind of selection - but as a whole, the most of the external features don't suffer too much selective pressure, except someones as pigmentation - and the diet and way of life modifies some features but not in a drastic way, at least in a short time: even the so called "gracilization" don't erase certain typical differences between human groups and it is for that I claim the agriculture in Balkans send foreign types from South-East, as classical anthropology claimed, and not only a "gracilization" phenomenon upon autochtones Hunters-Gatherers: a gracilized cromagnoid of Croatia never become a light 'mediterranen' in the course of some centuries! Today, the genetics is confirming that! This evolution certainly occurred but elsewhere and needed very more long time -

MOESAN
04-10-14, 00:16
ANGELA: that said, thanks for your pictures that confirms what I thought: very 'yemenite' features indeed: nose, lips, jaws and cheekbones and so on... it doesn't look too much Basque nor Catalan, not too much Sardinian too, even if someones of this model could be found there at very low levels and the most of Bulgarians and Romanians I know, even southernlike for profanes, have more robust jaws, as have too the most of Iranians or Afghans I saw... so 'mediterranean' is a "bag-term"

have a good night

MOESAN
04-10-14, 00:23
66786678

could you tell the geographic or "ethnic" affiliation of this man? in order of preference...

Yetos
04-10-14, 05:35
@ moesan

hmmm

alpinoid, short neck, big head,
central europe,
nose african style,
south Europe,

again hmmm
Spain Italy Balkans Turkey?

I will say around Adriatic sea, and Bulgaria

MOESAN
04-10-14, 10:59
Yes, one type of Latvians have similar faces... :)

sorry, I red back my post: this type is common rather in WESTERN Norway, not Eastern (my W went away!)

arvistro
04-10-14, 13:10
Makes sense somewhat. West Norway was the place in Norway richest with R1a, I think.

MOESAN
04-10-14, 17:03
@ moesan

hmmm

alpinoid, short neck, big head,
central europe,
nose african style,
south Europe,

again hmmm
Spain Italy Balkans Turkey?

I will say around Adriatic sea, and Bulgaria

'alpine' (anthropologic meaning) is not big headed but round and broad and short headed (brachycephally) - the neck is not short at all (bad descriptions in some books)
sepaking of body, 'alpine' has short legs, middle arms and longcylindirc trunk, not at all what the neck of this man can suggest -and 'alpine' as evident component runs from France to Romania (at least), even to Anatolia! it can be observe at lower levels in Scotland, Ireland, some parts of Iberia, adn ... (to long!) - it is very common in North and central Italy, becoming in some parts the principal element -
for crania, this front picture of a almost bald man is mistakable: in fact the Ceph-Index is 76 (subdolichocephallic: a big enough head, it is true, what is again a factor against an Eastern origin in Europe)
nose african style: uneasy to say on this picture! not so much - and hear, different 'meds', even if diverse, have almost never "african style of nose" - you can even say it is among descendants of "mesolithics" (North Europe for the most but not only: every country has its regions and subregions, plains and mountains...) you can find the most "african style noses" , at first concerning the fleshy round tip (sometimes the tendancy links to 'mongoloids' aspect too) and the less "european noses": on this point, 'south-west-asians' (Arabs, Near-Easterners) and 'west-asians' have THE MOST TYPICALLY EUROPEAN NOSES: I wonder what could be the opinion of someones concerning some genuine Northern Europeans if pigmentation was not at play!
by the way this man has the old westerner edge to edge biting (tooths) when the most of modern 'meds' have a upper crown of teeth covering the lower crown (he has what people call "proganthy" what is an error, prognathy concerns the general position of teeths and upper jaw compared to forehead line (roughly said!) not the respcetive position of upper and lower jaws -
SO:
Spain?:very possible - Italy?: possible, very less, and depending on regions - Balkans? evne less frequent - Turk?: almost absent
just my thoughts - let's keep working (joke)!

MOESAN
04-10-14, 17:08
Makes sense somewhat. West Norway was the place in Norway richest with R1a, I think.

maybe or maybe not?
the seemingly 'cromagnoid' aspect of this kind of 'borreby' (but the nose is a bit too narrow and straight on this man?) don't lead us towards a -R1a population? but I know Y-DNA and autosomals can have been disrupted long time ago...) - without any certitude I saw rather the Y-R1a associated to the 'corded' type, a crossing where high dolichocephalic long faced people ('proto-nordic' and 'brĂ¼nn'?) were strongly dominent

arvistro
04-10-14, 17:43
Sorry, you should be right. Was under wrong assumption based on famous people thread pictures. Where 'I' people were very long faced, whereas R1a represented by Tom Hanks. R1b seemed to be in between those two.
Although also on other site where people were posting black white pics of their grand dads with their Hg, I folk seemed long faced in general.

Angela
05-10-14, 20:48
Oooooooo!!! I'm very sad after your observations:
the first man is very S-E mediterranean looking for features, not only for pigmentation - by the way the photo doesn't provide me a secure diagnostic for pigmentation!-
I thought you were more aware of what is typlogy in physical anthropology - His type can be found in Balkans and S-E Europe but is not typical of the Balkans and is very rare too in Western Mediterranea: If you prefer you can call it: 'arab'
concerning the second type, it is uncommon among Italians, at first place in Southern Italy - it 's not absent for historic and prehistoric reasons - the 'cromagnon' basis for this 'borreby 1' was very common in Europe between Paleo- and Mesolithic, in Italy as well as in Spain or elsewhere, in the Balkans and Carpathians too, before diverse evolutions and foreign colonizations - I know some Murcians with very 'cromagnoid' or 'borreby' features, whatever their pigmentation, spite the numeric domination of diverse 'mediterranean' types (a very unprecise term)
It seem to me you counfound physicalbasic types of more ancient human groups (born when isolation was more easy) with more recent ethnies where this ancient types are crossed with others -
I had already said that I CANNOT TELL THE ETHNIC appartenance of na European or "Caucasian" man, even if very often I CAN TELL WHAT HE IS NOT (exclusion) - the cause is very understandable: our ethnies are very often crossings of ancient types AT DIFFERENT LEVEL (SOMETIMES VERY VERY DIFFERENT!!!)sharing all the same basic - but I think these studies are a good complement of autosomals studies because these last ones don't provide us to precise borders between components, because of these already old enough crossings - I see the proof of that in the diverse classifications for autosomals groups as 'mediterranean' or 'western mediterranean' versus 'eastern mediterranean', or 'south-west-asian', 'west-asian' or 'caucasian', 'gedrosia', 'basque', sardinian', even 'atlantic', according to the different namings adopted - the cause is that there have been not only an acient 'continuum' between the regions and the populations concerned explaining their global genetic proximity but also new admixtures between them -
types or only someones of the possible panel - So I can often guess the origin of a human group if its members are of the same "stock" when I cannot do it for an unique individual - I can devine the origin of an Irish or Scottish group (say: 20 men) as well as of an Armemian one but within every groups and even in a unique individual too I can notice (even of the same family) some of the different influences of different primary types (what they called "subraces" in old time) -
hre problme with types is that in a relatively simple combination of few ("homozygotous") types, you can take a stable result of crossing (so "heterozygotous for external features) for a genuine original type ('dinaric' could be this confusng result) - it is true that even what I call a genuine type can have been born by very ancient crossings before any kind of selection - but as a whole, the most of the external features don't suffer too much selective pressure, except someones as pigmentation - and the diet and way of life modifies some features but not in a drastic way, at least in a short time: even the so called "gracilization" don't erase certain typical differences between human groups and it is for that I claim the agriculture in Balkans send foreign types from South-East, as classical anthropology claimed, and not only a "gracilization" phenomenon upon autochtones Hunters-Gatherers: a gracilized cromagnoid of Croatia never become a light 'mediterranen' in the course of some centuries! Today, the genetics is confirming that! This evolution certainly occurred but elsewhere and needed very more long time -

Moesan, now I am sad...:sad-2:

I am about to go outdoors to enjoy some of our first good weather in days. Later today I'll respond at more length.