PDA

View Full Version : Genome of an Iron age Briton



Fire Haired14
09-10-14, 01:42
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTJBixgPwLWPJI1xoHGx24LgG-rr6vIDGc22zjPjPdDs3Jg1kS3


The genomes of 5 Iron age Britons from Hinxton England dating 2500-1800 years old were sequenced and released online. An abstract by the authours was posted on the ASHG website last month, but they’ve decided to relase the raw DNA of their samples probably a year or so before they publish a paper about the ancient samples.

Felix Chandrakumar the author of the blog "Genetic Genealogy Tools" converted the raw data of sample ERS389795 to "formats familiar to genetic genealogists". He has done the same with just about all avaible ancient genomes. He made GEDmatch kits for MA-1, Anzick-1, Loschbour, Motala12, La Brana-1, and Stuttgart, so anyone can play around with their DNA at GEDmatch. If you’re able to download ERS389795’s raw data, there are plenty of DNA analysis tools online you can use.

http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/hinxton-dna.html (http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/hinxton-dna.html)

Davidski at Eurogenes got results for ERS389795 in his admixture tests Eurogenes K13 and K15. Davidski says he’ll post more on his full analysis later today. ERS389795’s admixture results are northwest European to the extreme, he’s scoring higher in compoents centered in that region than any modern populations. He also probably has around as much WHG and ANE as Scandnavians, so a few percentages more than most Celts in the British isles today. His admixture results overall are most similar to Irish and western Scottish. Furthermore Davidski said in a PCA based on SNPs which he has not posted yet ERS389795 shows links to Irish and Scottish.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/10/analysis-of-iron-age-briton-from-hinxton.html (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/10/analysis-of-iron-age-briton-from-hinxton.html)

Members at Anthrogencia found that ERS389795 belonged to Y DNA haplogroup R1b-L11, but they couldn't get downstream calls. His RSRS results reveal that he belonged to mtDNA haplogroup K1a1b1b.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=54621#post54621 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=54621#post54621)

I’m sure more info about ERS389795 and the 4 other Iron age Brits will be learned in the next few days.

motzart
09-10-14, 01:58
Eurogenes K15





























Iron Age Briton
English from Cornwall
English from Kent
Me

Loschbour

Motala

Stuttgart

MA1


















North_Sea 43.19
North_Sea 35.22
North_Sea 35.52
North_Sea
38.59%
North_Sea
34.51%
North_Sea
39.26%
North_Sea
4.33%
North_Sea
15.91%


Atlantic 28.88
Atlantic 28.94
Atlantic 29.86
Atlantic
28.14%
Atlantic
23.86%
Atlantic
6.78%
Atlantic
16.08%
Atlantic
-


Baltic 6.46
Baltic 9.69
Baltic 9.89
Baltic
8.92%
Baltic
33.51%
Baltic
28.91%
Baltic
-
Baltic
6.54%


Eastern_Euro 11.98
Eastern_Euro 8.02
Eastern_Euro 8.36
Eastern_Euro
10.73%
Eastern_Euro
7.33%
Eastern_Euro
25.05%
Eastern_Euro
-
Eastern_Euro
38.02%


West_Med 6.71
West_Med 11.16
West_Med 8.77
West_Med
9.34%
West_Med
-
West_Med
-
West_Med
47.18%
West_Med
-


West_Asian 1.74
West_Asian 3.55
West_Asian 3.35
West_Asian
0.70%
West_Asian
-
West_Asian
-
West_Asian
-
West_Asian
-


East_Med 0.01
East_Med 1.82
East_Med 2.5
East_Med
0.70%
East_Med
-
East_Med
-
East_Med
27.41%
East_Med
-


Red_Sea 1.01
Red_Sea 0.59
Red_Sea 0.33
Red_Sea
1.21%
Red_Sea
-
Red_Sea
-
Red_Sea
5.00%
Red_Sea
-


South_Asian 0
South_Asian 0.54
South_Asian 0.58
South_Asian
0.17%
South_Asian
-
South_Asian
-
South_Asian
-
South_Asian
20.31%


Southeast_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0.05
Southeast_Asian 0.03
Southeast_Asian
-
Southeast_Asian
-
Southeast_Asian
-
Southeast_Asian
-
Southeast_Asian
-


Siberian 0
Siberian 0.03
Siberian 0.05
Siberian
-
Siberian
-
Siberian
-
Siberian
-
Siberian
-


Amerindian 0
Amerindian 0.07
Amerindian 0.35
Amerindian
1.10%
Amerindian
-
Amerindian
-
Amerindian
-
Amerindian
18.62%


Oceanian 0
Oceanian 0.19
Oceanian 0.31
Oceanian
-
Oceanian
0.80%
Oceanian
-
Oceanian
-
Oceanian
0.12%


Northeast_African 0
Northeast_African 0.11
Northeast_African 0.06
Northeast_African
0.40%
Northeast_African
-
Northeast_African
-
Northeast_African
-
Northeast_African
-


Sub-Saharan 0
Sub-Saharan 0.03
Sub-Saharan 0.03
Sub-Saharan
-
Sub-Saharan
-
Sub-Saharan
-
Sub-Saharan
-
Sub-Saharan
0.47%

LeBrok
09-10-14, 02:26
Interestingly his Eastern Euro is higher than Stuttgart and even Loshbour. Meaning that his East Euro cannot be from Neolithic farmers or local Hunter Gatherers. Most likely it is signature of Indo Europeans who came from East in Bronze Age and some more in Iron Age. His West Asian and East Med is very low too, so perhaps Celts or proto Celts came from East Europe anyway? To bad Caucasian admixture is not shown here.
Having said that we don't Neolithic farmer sequenced from England yet for proper comparison.

motzart
09-10-14, 02:44
Interestingly his Eastern Euro is higher than Stuttgart and even Loshbour. Meaning that his East Euro cannot be from Neolithic farmers or local Hunter Gatherers. Most likely it is signature of Indo Europeans who came from East in Bronze Age and some more in Iron Age. His West Asian and East Med is very low too, so perhaps Celts or proto Celts came from East Europe anyway? To bad Caucasian admixture is not shown here.
Having said that we don't Neolithic farmer sequenced from England yet for proper comparison.

You missed the 25% Eastern Euro on Motala, thats from 6000 B.C. long before any Indo Europeans existed. I think whats more telling is that he has a good chunk of West_Med admixture which definitely came from the farmers. The West Asian bit is also interesting too because you don't see that in ANY of the other ancient samples. Also, Stuttgart is a Neolithic Farmer...... Motala/Loschbour are HGs FYI

Angela
09-10-14, 02:55
Eurogenes K15





























Iron Age Briton
English from Cornwall
English from Kent
Me

Loschbour

Motala

Stuttgart

MA1


















North_Sea 43.19
North_Sea 35.22
North_Sea 35.52
North_Sea
38.59%
North_Sea
34.51%
North_Sea
39.26%
North_Sea
4.33%
North_Sea
15.91%


Atlantic 28.88
Atlantic 28.94
Atlantic 29.86
Atlantic
28.14%
Atlantic
23.86%
Atlantic
6.78%
Atlantic
16.08%
Atlantic
-


Baltic 6.46
Baltic 9.69
Baltic 9.89
Baltic
8.92%
Baltic
33.51%
Baltic
28.91%
Baltic
-
Baltic
6.54%


Eastern_Euro 11.98
Eastern_Euro 8.02
Eastern_Euro 8.36
Eastern_Euro
10.73%
Eastern_Euro
7.33%
Eastern_Euro
25.05%
Eastern_Euro
-
Eastern_Euro
38.02%


West_Med 6.71
West_Med 11.16
West_Med 8.77
West_Med
9.34%
West_Med
-
West_Med
-
West_Med
47.18%
West_Med
-


West_Asian 1.74
West_Asian 3.55
West_Asian 3.35
West_Asian
0.70%
West_Asian
-
West_Asian
-
West_Asian
-
West_Asian
-


East_Med 0.01
East_Med 1.82
East_Med 2.5
East_Med
0.70%
East_Med
-
East_Med
-
East_Med
27.41%
East_Med
-


Red_Sea 1.01
Red_Sea 0.59
Red_Sea 0.33
Red_Sea
1.21%
Red_Sea
-
Red_Sea
-
Red_Sea
5.00%
Red_Sea
-


South_Asian 0
South_Asian 0.54
South_Asian 0.58
South_Asian
0.17%
South_Asian
-
South_Asian
-
South_Asian
-
South_Asian
20.31%


Southeast_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0.05
Southeast_Asian 0.03
Southeast_Asian
-
Southeast_Asian
-
Southeast_Asian
-
Southeast_Asian
-
Southeast_Asian
-


Siberian 0
Siberian 0.03
Siberian 0.05
Siberian
-
Siberian
-
Siberian
-
Siberian
-
Siberian
-


Amerindian 0
Amerindian 0.07
Amerindian 0.35
Amerindian
1.10%
Amerindian
-
Amerindian
-
Amerindian
-
Amerindian
18.62%


Oceanian 0
Oceanian 0.19
Oceanian 0.31
Oceanian
-
Oceanian
0.80%
Oceanian
-
Oceanian
-
Oceanian
0.12%


Northeast_African 0
Northeast_African 0.11
Northeast_African 0.06
Northeast_African
0.40%
Northeast_African
-
Northeast_African
-
Northeast_African
-
Northeast_African
-


Sub-Saharan 0
Sub-Saharan 0.03
Sub-Saharan 0.03
Sub-Saharan
-
Sub-Saharan
-
Sub-Saharan
-
Sub-Saharan
-
Sub-Saharan
0.47%




I'm assuming this is the oldest sample...i.e. Iron Age?

By no means am I an expert on the genetics of the British Isles, but wasn't the prevailing theory that the "Britons" were pushed westward by the Angles and Saxons? So why is this sample more northern and eastern than the Cornwall sample? Cornwall is less North Sea, less Eastern European, more Med and more West Asian.

I also doubt whether the Normans have anything to do with it even if they intermarried like mad with the French before they went to England...unless they came in far larger numbers than I have previously seen estimated?

Is it possible, given the location where the sample was found that there had already been population movement from, say, Norway or Denmark into this area? In that regard, I find it interesting if the sample is closest to the west Scottish. Wasn't there a lot of Scandinavian settlement there?

Do you have the results for someone from western Ireland by any chance?

On the other hand, I was never and am not now a fan of this program...

I know this blogger produced some sort of EEF/WHG/ANE program. Was this sample run through it?

motzart
09-10-14, 03:05
I'm assuming this is the oldest sample...i.e. Iron Age?

By no means am I an expert on the genetics of the British Isles, but wasn't the prevailing theory that the "Britons" were pushed westward by the Angles and Saxons? So why is this sample more northern and eastern than the Cornwall sample? Cornwall is less North Sea, less Eastern European, more Med and more West Asian.

I also doubt whether the Normans have anything to do with it even if they intermarried like mad with the French before they went to England...unless they came in far larger numbers than I have previously seen estimated?

Is it possible, given the location where the sample was found that there had already been population movement from, say, Norway or Denmark into this area? In that regard, I find it interesting if the sample is closest to the west Scottish. Wasn't there a lot of Scandinavian settlement there?

Do you have the results for someone from western Ireland by any chance?

On the other hand, I was never and am not now a fan of this program...

I know this blogger produced some sort of EEF/WHG/ANE program. Was this sample run through it?

We don't actually know if this is an Anglo-Saxon or a "Pre" Anglo Saxon, apparently that information will be released tomorrow to add suspense :embarassed:

LeBrok
09-10-14, 03:48
You missed the 25% Eastern Euro on Motala, thats from 6000 B.C. long before any Indo Europeans existed. I think whats more telling is that he has a good chunk of West_Med admixture which definitely came from the farmers. The West Asian bit is also interesting too because you don't see that in ANY of the other ancient samples. Also, Stuttgart is a Neolithic Farmer...... Motala/Loschbour are HGs FYI
I'm not saying that he is pure Indo-European invader. Most of his genetics is local and most of it is Neolithic West Euro and West Hunter Gatherer, however he carries increased amount of East Euro which didn't exist there in Neolithic. Granted it could have come from Scandinavia or with Saxons, otherwise only Indo-Europeans could have brought so much East Euro.
IE invaders came there as minority and could have had originally 50% East Euro, but after mixing with locals the East Euro was diluted to 12%.

What do you propose, from all the admixtures shown, was brought with IE from East to England?

East Euro in Motala can be explain by constant population movement from Eastern Europe hunter gatherer population after Ice Age. Scandinavia is a peninsula, as you know, connected with North East Europe by land bridge. Most likely HG got to Scandinavia through this land bridge from Eastern Europe.
We also can see rather limited connection with Western Europe by Motala's low Atlantic admixture, even when compared to Loshbour.

Aberdeen
09-10-14, 04:21
If these samples are from 1800-2500 years ago, they're from before the Normans or Anglo-Saxons and could be either from Roman Britain or from pre-Roman Celtic Britain but, either way, they look like what I would expect typical Celts to look like - a lot of North Sea and Atlantic ancestry and some Eastern Europe (IE). Finds from Norway from the same period would probably look similar not because of early Norse settlement in the area but because of similar ancestry. The Celtic and Viking myths, legends and religious beliefs are fairly similar despite the linguistic differences - a British writer named H. R. Ellis Davidson has written about that.

LeBrok
09-10-14, 04:35
If these samples are from 1800-2500 years ago, they're from before the Normans or Anglo-Saxons and could be either from Roman Britain or from pre-Roman Celtic Britain but, either way, they look like what I would expect typical Celts to look like - a lot of North Sea and Atlantic ancestry and some Eastern Europe (IE). Finds from Norway from the same period would probably look similar not because of early Norse settlement in the area but because of similar ancestry. The Celtic and Viking myths, legends and religious beliefs are fairly similar despite the linguistic differences - a British writer named H. R. Ellis Davidson has written about that.
Some historians say that Anglo-Frisians were invading and settling England from second century BCE (IIRC) through Roman period. Some excavated villages from this time period carry Frisian cultural artifacts and are located amongst local celtic villages. The Anglo-Saxon invasion was supposedly a culmination of this long going process of germanic tribes settling in England.

Angela
09-10-14, 05:16
My point was that I thought The People of the British Isles Study was using southwest British people like the Cornish as the reference population for the pre-Roman, pre-Saxon "Britons".

This sample, at least by the limited evidence of this particular admixture run, seems to be closer to the western Scots, Orkney etc. (areas settled by Norwegians later on in history).

So, wouldn't it be logical to say that either these more northern and eastern "type" people were moving into a Britain populated by more "Cornish" like people earlier than believed, or southern and southwestern British people somehow got more "southern", perhaps more "EEF" genes? If that's what happened, there are only a few options, yes? Perhaps it's down to the Belgae?The Normans and movement from France in general is the only other larger scale migration of which I'm aware after the Saxons? Now, from what little I know, the Normans weren't all Normans, so maybe that's part of the answer.

As I said, it would be interesting to see if the EEF/WHG/ANE percentages of this Iron Age Briton are close to those of modern day people from, say, southern England.

It would also be interesting to see the K=15 results from western Ireland, for example, or northern Wales.

Of course, I don't think the differences are major, and too much can be made of them.

Ed If these migrations were taking place generally from the east from the Bronze Age, different waves might have had a slightly different composition?

Fire Haired14
09-10-14, 05:21
I'm assuming this is the oldest sample...i.e. Iron Age?

By no means am I an expert on the genetics of the British Isles, but wasn't the prevailing theory that the "Britons" were pushed westward by the Angles and Saxons? So why is this sample more northern and eastern than the Cornwall sample? Cornwall is less North Sea, less Eastern European, more Med and more West Asian.

I also doubt whether the Normans have anything to do with it even if they intermarried like mad with the French before they went to England...unless they came in far larger numbers than I have previously seen estimated?

Is it possible, given the location where the sample was found that there had already been population movement from, say, Norway or Denmark into this area? In that regard, I find it interesting if the sample is closest to the west Scottish. Wasn't there a lot of Scandinavian settlement there?

Do you have the results for someone from western Ireland by any chance?

On the other hand, I was never and am not now a fan of this program...

I know this blogger produced some sort of EEF/WHG/ANE program. Was this sample run through it?

This sample is very northern but not very eastern. It's west European on steroids. Like I said in my original post it scores higher in northwest European-centered components than any modern populations. He scored 40% WHG, 16% ANE,and 44% EEF. He's a pre-Anglo Brit and it should be expected for him to be most similar to Irish.

Fire Haired14
09-10-14, 05:24
Maybe Cornish have significant Anglo-Saxon admixture like English. Irish and west Scottish score about as high in west European-centered components as this Iron age Brit, maybe because they have more Celtic ancestry from the Isles.

Aberdeen
09-10-14, 05:26
Some historians say that Anglo-Frisians were invading and settling England from second century BCE (IIRC) through Roman period. Some excavated villages from this time period carry Frisian cultural artifacts and are located amongst local celtic villages. The Anglo-Saxon invasion was supposedly a culmination of this long going process of germanic tribes settling in England.

There are no historical records of any Germanic invasions prior to 400 AD, although there was trade between Britain and the Germanic tribes, so some peaceful settlement could have occurred, in which case these people could possibly be Germanic, but IMO the main differences between the folk of Denmark, for example, and western England were probably cultural and linguistic rather than genetic, and the cultural differences wouldn't have been as great as some might expect. I imagine that even in pre-Celtic Britain there would have been a more Germanic tilt, culturally and genetically in eastern Britain as compared to western Britain since some of those Celts that the Roman invaders fought were actually Germano-Celtic Belgaic tribes, at least in eastern Britain - Boudiccia was actually Belgaic rather than full Celt, at least according to the records of the time.

Aberdeen
09-10-14, 05:31
My point was that I thought The People of the British Isles Study was using southwest British people like the Cornish as the reference population for the pre-Roman, pre-Saxon "Britons".

This sample, at least by the limited evidence of this particular admixture run, seems to be closer to the western Scots, Orkney etc. (areas settled by Norwegians later on in history).

So, wouldn't it be logical to say that either these more northern and eastern "type" people were moving into a Britain populated by more "Cornish" like people earlier than believed, or southern and southwestern British people somehow got more "southern", perhaps more "EEF" genes? If that's what happened, there are only a few options, yes? Perhaps it's down to the Belgae?The Normans and movement from France in general is the only other larger scale migration of which I'm aware after the Saxons? Now, from what little I know, the Normans weren't all Normans, so maybe that's part of the answer.

As I said, it would be interesting to see if the EEF/WHG/ANE percentages of this Iron Age Briton are close to those of modern day people from, say, southern England.

It would also be interesting to see the K=15 results from western Ireland, for example, or northern Wales.

Of course, I don't think the differences are major, and too much can be made of them.

Ed If these migrations were taking place generally from the east from the Bronze Age, different waves might have had a slightly different composition?

The Normans were a mixture of Scandinavian and French, but as I said before, this was before their time (1066 and all that). It was prior to the Anglo-Saxon invasions but, yes, the Belgaic component in the eastern part of "Celtic" Britain would have tilted that population in somewhat of a north Germanic direction as compared to the Cornwall population but the differences wouldn't be great.

Angela
09-10-14, 05:36
This sample is very northern but not very eastern. It's west European on steroids. Like I said in my original post it scores higher in northwest European-centered components than any modern populations. He scored 40% WHG, 16% ANE,and 44% EEF. He's a pre-Anglo Brit and it should be expected for him to be most similar to Irish.

As I said, the differences are not extreme. However, these are the Lazaridis et al results for the English versus the Scots:

English
EEF-.495
WHG-.364
ANE-.141

The modern English are six points higher in EEF, and slightly lower in ANE and WHG than this Iron Age Brit

Scots:
EEF .39
WHG: .428
ANE:.182

Modern Scots are lower in EEF, and higher in ANE and WHG.

I will let the Brits figure it out. :smile:

LeBrok
09-10-14, 06:18
There are no historical records of any Germanic invasions prior to 400 AD, although there was trade between Britain and the Germanic tribes, so some peaceful settlement could have occurred, in which case these people could possibly be Germanic, True, there were no signs of major invasion, battles, scorges. More like peaceful settlements living together. Similar coexistence of two cultures was noted in Poland when Goths were moving south to Black Sea.

I'm not sure how this is possible that locals can agree for strangers to settle close by. Perhaps in certain time periods population density is not big, strangers come and cut forest for their village and new fields, not taking agrarian land from locals?

LeBrok
09-10-14, 06:21
English
EEF-.495

Scots:
EEF .39

I will let the Brits figure it out. :smile: Still substantial difference of over 20% in distance of few hundred kilometers.

Sile
09-10-14, 06:59
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTJBixgPwLWPJI1xoHGx24LgG-rr6vIDGc22zjPjPdDs3Jg1kS3


The genomes of 5 Iron age Britons from Hinxton England dating 2500-1800 years old were sequenced and released online. An abstract by the authours was posted on the ASHG website last month, but they’ve decided to relase the raw DNA of their samples probably a year or so before they publish a paper about the ancient samples.

Felix Chandrakumar the author of the blog "Genetic Genealogy Tools" converted the raw data of sample ERS389795 to "formats familiar to genetic genealogists". He has done the same with just about all avaible ancient genomes. He made GEDmatch kits for MA-1, Anzick-1, Loschbour, Motala12, La Brana-1, and Stuttgart, so anyone can play around with their DNA at GEDmatch. If you’re able to download ERS389795’s raw data, there are plenty of DNA analysis tools online you can use.

http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/hinxton-dna.html (http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/hinxton-dna.html)

Davidski at Eurogenes got results for ERS389795 in his admixture tests Eurogenes K13 and K15. Davidski says he’ll post more on his full analysis later today. ERS389795’s admixture results are northwest European to the extreme, he’s scoring higher in compoents centered in that region than any modern populations. He also probably has around as much WHG and ANE as Scandnavians, so a few percentages more than most Celts in the British isles today. His admixture results overall are most similar to Irish and western Scottish. Furthermore Davidski said in a PCA based on SNPs which he has not posted yet ERS389795 shows links to Irish and Scottish.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/10/analysis-of-iron-age-briton-from-hinxton.html (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/10/analysis-of-iron-age-briton-from-hinxton.html)

Members at Anthrogencia found that ERS389795 belonged to Y DNA haplogroup R1b-L11, but they couldn't get downstream calls. His RSRS results reveal that he belonged to mtDNA haplogroup K1a1b1b.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=54621#post54621 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=54621#post54621)

I’m sure more info about ERS389795 and the 4 other Iron age Brits will be learned in the next few days.

the notes state iron-age britain ..........thats from 800BC to 100AD

Anglo-saxons did not arrive in britain until 450AD

years in question 2500-1800 Yrs ago = 500BC- 200AD

1 - it cannot be angels, saxons , jutes or frisians

2- it can be celtic belgae who arrived in 200BC

3- mtdna marker is noted as origins in scandinavian

most likely the person belongs to an early celtic migration

sparkey
09-10-14, 07:11
My point was that I thought The People of the British Isles Study was using southwest British people like the Cornish as the reference population for the pre-Roman, pre-Saxon "Britons".

Is "Southwest English" the same as "Cornish" here? Some Southwest English samples have clustered very differently from the Cornish in other studies; for example, in PotBI, people from Dorset cluster with people from Kent, not with people from Cornwall, who are a unique cluster. I haven't followed Eurogenes closely the past couple of years, but data that was current circa a couple of years ago in K13 (a better alignment than K15 for finding Anglo-Saxon traces IMHO), the Cornish had almost identical profiles as SW Scots, and quite different from Kentish, who were closer to the Dutch.

John Doe
09-10-14, 08:28
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTJBixgPwLWPJI1xoHGx24LgG-rr6vIDGc22zjPjPdDs3Jg1kS3


The genomes of 5 Iron age Britons from Hinxton England dating 2500-1800 years old were sequenced and released online. An abstract by the authours was posted on the ASHG website last month, but they’ve decided to relase the raw DNA of their samples probably a year or so before they publish a paper about the ancient samples.

Felix Chandrakumar the author of the blog "Genetic Genealogy Tools" converted the raw data of sample ERS389795 to "formats familiar to genetic genealogists". He has done the same with just about all avaible ancient genomes. He made GEDmatch kits for MA-1, Anzick-1, Loschbour, Motala12, La Brana-1, and Stuttgart, so anyone can play around with their DNA at GEDmatch. If you’re able to download ERS389795’s raw data, there are plenty of DNA analysis tools online you can use.

http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/hinxton-dna.html (http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/hinxton-dna.html)

Davidski at Eurogenes got results for ERS389795 in his admixture tests Eurogenes K13 and K15. Davidski says he’ll post more on his full analysis later today. ERS389795’s admixture results are northwest European to the extreme, he’s scoring higher in compoents centered in that region than any modern populations. He also probably has around as much WHG and ANE as Scandnavians, so a few percentages more than most Celts in the British isles today. His admixture results overall are most similar to Irish and western Scottish. Furthermore Davidski said in a PCA based on SNPs which he has not posted yet ERS389795 shows links to Irish and Scottish.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/10/analysis-of-iron-age-briton-from-hinxton.html (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/10/analysis-of-iron-age-briton-from-hinxton.html)

Members at Anthrogencia found that ERS389795 belonged to Y DNA haplogroup R1b-L11, but they couldn't get downstream calls. His RSRS results reveal that he belonged to mtDNA haplogroup K1a1b1b.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=54621#post54621 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=54621#post54621)

I’m sure more info about ERS389795 and the 4 other Iron age Brits will be learned in the next few days.

Interesting. As advances are being made in ancient DNA studies our knowledge increases.

Aberdeen
09-10-14, 10:32
True, there were no signs of major invasion, battles, scorges. More like peaceful settlements living together. Similar coexistence of two cultures was noted in Poland when Goths were moving south to Black Sea.

I'm not sure how this is possible that locals can agree for strangers to settle close by. Perhaps in certain time periods population density is not big, strangers come and cut forest for their village and new fields, not taking agrarian land from locals?

Maybe low density has something to do with it but in the historical example I'm aware of, peaceful settlements by foreigners were accepted either because they brought a new skill or a better way to do something (such as making pottery or weaving) or they were operating a trading post trading goods from their country of origin that the locals were particularly anxious to acquire. One example I know of was a fairly significant settlement of Flemish weavers in East Anglia in England during the early modern period.

Angela
09-10-14, 17:40
]
Is "Southwest English" the same as "Cornish" here?

I don't know. I don't know the source of the "Cornish" data that was posted, and I don't know how that would compare with the "Cornish" or otherwise SW English samples of the British project.

Given that the folks at the People of the British Isles project have properly screened samples, they would be the ones who could do the best comparisons, yes?

A lot will also depend on what the genomes of the "Anglo-Saxons" show, who, the authors stated in their abstract, are closer to the modern British.

In the meantime, just for general analysis purposes, I would think that it might be informative if someone ran this sample through someone else's calculators. The DIY software is available. I'm not a fan of the Eurogenes calculators in general, and of that one in particular, partly because it was obviously done using the Hellenthal et al populations. I have yet to find out where those samples were taken. If someone knows, perhaps they could post here. The only clue I have is that they mention a study on, if my memory serves me, cystic fibrosis. In my experience, doctors don't ask a patient if all four grandparents came from the same area when they collect a sample. Perhaps in this case the researchers did get the information. I don't know. I do know that the southern Italian samples on that run plot very strangely. What I also know is that two studies on Italy are useless because the questions were not asked.

As to the difference between the Lazaridis EEF/WHG/ANE figures for the modern English and the calculator figures for this Iron Age sample, there are some differences. I don't place total faith on these "calculator" results. They are internally inconsistent and inconsistent with the academic results. However, for the purposes of discussion, let's take them at face value. If it was admixture post Iron Age which caused the change, it would have to have been some admixture with a slightly more "southern" orientation. I have difficulty imagining the Anglo-Saxons as more EEF. The Normans might have been, but how large was their input?

Or, is it because of admixture into the English "heartland" from the periphery of the Islands? I don't see how it could be from very recent migration from Scotland, given that their EEF numbers are even lower than the Iron Age sample. I don't know what properly sourced samples from, say, far western Ireland or Wales would show.

Which leads me to the fact that as Aberdeen suggested, if I understand him correctly, by the time of the pre-Roman and pre-Saxon "Britons", there might have already been slight differences east/west as well as perhaps north/south in the British Isles. Could it be that the far western inhabitants of Iron Age Britain had more of that kind of a signature? We would need ancient dna from there, yes? Absent that, which modern population could serve...perhaps far western Ireland or northern Wales as I mentioned above? I would leave that to experts in British genetics.

Just generally, if I can make an analogy with Italy, which I know much better, I would be very surprised if all the "Indo-European" groups, largely labeled "Italics" who came into the peninsula from north of the Alps were absolutely identical genetically, not to mention people like the Ligures, for example, who may also have been Indo-Europeans.

hope
09-10-14, 17:51
the notes state iron-age britain ..........thats from 800BC to 100AD

Anglo-saxons did not arrive in britain until 450AD

years in question 2500-1800 Yrs ago = 500BC- 200AD

1 - it cannot be angels, saxons , jutes or frisians

2- it can be celtic belgae who arrived in 200BC

3- mtdna marker is noted as origins in scandinavian

most likely the person belongs to an early celtic migration
I agree it could be Belgae. I wonder if we might find any similar here, via Fir Bolg? [not the mythical version of course]

Aberdeen
09-10-14, 19:15
I agree it could be Belgae. I wonder if we might find any similar here, via Fir Bolg? [not the mythical version of course]

I know some historians have theorized that the Fir Bolg might be Belgaic, on the basis of a presumed similarity of name, I think. But my own theory, based on the Irish myth about the Fir Bolg being overthrown by a warrior race, is that if they existed in real life as well as myth, they would have been Neolithic Irish, with more EEF than the later Irish.

If we want a modern proxy for pre-Roman Celtic inhabitants of Britain, I would suggest that we choose Gaelic speaking people from western Ireland and western Scotland - if they still speak Gaelic today, they probably don't have as much Viking invader blood as some Irish and Scots do - just my theory.

MOESAN
10-10-14, 21:46
You missed the 25% Eastern Euro on Motala, thats from 6000 B.C. long before any Indo Europeans existed. I think whats more telling is that he has a good chunk of West_Med admixture which definitely came from the farmers. The West Asian bit is also interesting too because you don't see that in ANY of the other ancient samples. Also, Stuttgart is a Neolithic Farmer...... Motala/Loschbour are HGs FYI

'westmed' is not proved to be from first farmers only: we don't know the composition of southern Europe just before Neolithic revolution and colonization -
surely some impus of 'proto-meds' reached S-W Europe before Neolithic at least OUR Neolithic (maybe N-Africa had some advance? I'm not cleaver enough on this matter...
but Mugem "mesolothical" people had already some southern imput, whatever the road taken by the concerned ancestors - I think 'west-meds' were strongly reinforced by neolithic advance (the one we know of) but they were there already before
that said, someones said a germanic population (small?) were in Britain at celtic times - the so called "danes tombs" in East England could be a proof of it - we don't know what part of the germanic continuum they were coming from - this concerning the question of 'eastern-euro' - that said too, the Iron Age celtic elite surely contained a bit of eastern european components

MOESAN
10-10-14, 21:54
on this analysis

MOESAN
10-10-14, 22:03
on this analysis, the I-A man shows no more, rather a bit less links with 'west-med' than Cornishes and Kentmen, and at same time, less 'baltic' than them, less 'westasian' than them, and the same 'atlantic' score - at contrary it shows more 'northsea', what could and germanic, and celtic -
as 'baltic' is lower, I think the 'eastern-euro' has no links with North Europe in them - so I would say: more "I-E" than the today British people, less "others" , but as a whole very close to them sharing with them and partly with Loschbour, ancient DNA of Europe of Hunters-Gatherers from North or West - I would say: CELTIC more than any other kind, more than Germanic -

MOESAN
10-10-14, 22:14
to ANGELA
YES we can imagine the western Brittons were a bit less "celtic" than the eastern Brittons before the Anglo-Saxons invasion -
and too more pre-BBs, Neolithical or not in West, and less BB than in East -
the Urnfields period could have send some others people in S-E Britain, before Iron Age (according to old scholars, Urnfields was accompanied by a lot of people moves, everywhere in Europe, and not only a cultural wave, even if these views are contradicted by new scholars, whatever the truth - it seems a population from Switzerland came into S-E Britain at these times, maybe already celtic (as BBs could have been, from an other stam) -
&: physically, the Belgae elite was almost identical to the other celtic elites, easily distinguished from Germanics! I say that beacuse Belgae take foot in E Britain -

Sile
10-10-14, 22:33
to ANGELA
YES we can imagine the western Brittons were a bit less "celtic" than the eastern Brittons before the Anglo-Saxons invasion -
and too more pre-BBs, Neolithical or not in West, and less BB than in East -
the Urnfields period could have send some others people in S-E Britain, before Iron Age (according to old scholars, Urnfields was accompanied by a lot of people moves, everywhere in Europe, and not only a cultural wave, even if these views are contradicted by new scholars, whatever the truth - it seems a population from Switzerland came into S-E Britain at these times, maybe already celtic (as BBs could have been, from an other stam) -
&: physically, the Belgae elite was almost identical to the other celtic elites, easily distinguished from Germanics! I say that beacuse Belgae take foot in E Britain -

can be belgae , but he has iberian markers .............can fit with a Roman legionaire from iberia

Sile
10-10-14, 22:38
4 of the 5 britons


The data indicate that ERS389795 was male. The Y-SNP calls don’t show which Y haplogroup ERS389795 belonged to, but they do show that he didn’t belong to haplogroups E, G, I1, J, R1a1, or T1a.
The mt-SNP calls show that ERS389795 belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup K1a1.

The data indicate that ERS389796 was female. The mt-SNP calls show that she belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup H2a2b1.

The data indicate that ERS389797 was female. The mt-SNP calls show that she belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup K1a4a1a2.

The data indicate that ERS389798 was male. It can be inferred from the Y-SNP calls that he belonged to Y haplogroup R1b, and he may have belonged to R1b1a2a1a2c1g2-FGC3903/S5201/Y2890.
The mt-SNP calls show that ERS389798 belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup H1ag1.

motzart
11-10-14, 03:03
The data indicate that ERS389795 was male. The Y-SNP calls (http://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-an-ancient-english-genome/) don’t show which Y haplogroup ERS389795 belonged to, but they do show that he didn’t belong to haplogroups E, G, I1, J, R1a1, or T1a.

The mt-SNP calls (http://genetiker.wordpress.com/mt-snp-calls-for-an-ancient-english-genome/) show that ERS389795 belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup K1a1.
ERS389795 only had 0.08% of the K12b Gedrosia component, which indicates that he didn’t belong to Y haplogroup R1b. The modern-day English have on average 10.6% of the Gedrosia component.



So ERS389795 was not R1b or admixed with R1b people. This basically has to be our Anglo-Saxon then and gives us a lot of interesting implications about Anglo-Saxon genetic heritage. Looks like that Anglo-Saxon mask might need to come off the R1b page.

Angela
11-10-14, 03:43
Wait a minute...is ERS389795 the sample whose results were posted upthread, and is he actually one of the Anglo-Saxon samples or not? Was he incorrectly labelled an Iron Age Celt upthread?

It obviously makes a huge difference. If those are the results of an Anglo-Saxon, then all this convoluted reasoning was invalid. Plus, no wonder he looked like a Scandinavian.

IF these are now the proper attribution, then it all makes a lot more sense...no convoluted reasoning required.

ERS389798 -Iron Age Kelt R1b
K12b


39.04% North_European
32.43% Atlantic_Med
9.12% Caucasus
5.96% Gedrosia
3.54% Sub_Saharan
2.90% South_Asian
2.73% East_African
2.63% Northwest_African
1.63% Southwest_Asian
0.02% Siberian
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian


dv3


59.73% West_European
24.91% Mediterranean
8.22% East_European
5.41% Palaeo_African
1.69% Neo_African
0.03% Northwest_African
0.00% East_African
0.00% Northeast_Asian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian
0.00% West_Asian


ERS389795-Anglo Saxon
K12b


49.89% North_European
30.08% Atlantic_Med
9.78% Caucasus
3.63% East_Asian
3.19% Sub_Saharan
1.31% Northwest_African
1.16% Siberian
0.79% East_African
0.08% Gedrosia
0.07% South_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian

dv3


41.46% West_European
24.44% East_European
17.31% Mediterranean
5.55% Northwest_African
3.17% South_Asian
2.69% Palaeo_African
1.70% West_Asian
1.21% Northeast_Asian
0.99% Southeast_Asian
0.85% Southwest_Asian
0.63% Neo_African
0.00% East_African


Ed. to change the K-12b results for the Iron Age Celt. While I can see why, in the abstract, the authors said the samples are all broadly north European, I think there are come significant differences.

Angela
11-10-14, 04:11
Also, if these are now properly attributed, the following EEF/WHG/ANE figures are for the Anglo-Saxon:
EEF: 44
WHG: 40
ANE: 16

It will be very interesting to see the scores for the Iron Age Kelt and if they go some way toward explaining the current scores for English people.

This also would make sense with the correlation of this Angle/Saxon with the West Scots, since, in so far as I can remember from reading some things from the People of the British Isles project, there was a lot of Norwegian migration along both Scottish coasts but particularly along the west?

If anyone has a Cornish or other southwest British genome handy, it would be interesting to get results for that person on these two runs.

motzart
11-10-14, 04:52
@Angela

Those aren't the correct K12b results for the Celt, ERS389798 , these are the results



39.04% North_European
32.43% Atlantic_Med
9.12% Caucasus
5.96% Gedrosia
3.54% Sub_Saharan
2.90% South_Asian
2.73% East_African
2.63% Northwest_African
1.63% Southwest_Asian
0.02% Siberian
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian

motzart
11-10-14, 05:31
k12b results I am having fun with. For the k12b calculator it seems that the Gedrosia admixture is the R1 signature in Europe (And to a lesser extent Siberian). The Caucasus admixture is the Farmer signature in Europe. R1 overlaps with Hunter Gatherers in North European Admixture, Farmers overlap with Hunter Gatherers in Atlantic_Med admixture. The more North European the more pure HG it seems. It looks like our Anglo Saxon is a Farmer/Hunter Gatherer Hybrid, which makes sense as mtDNA K came into Europe with the Neolithic Farmers. An early educated guess would be that Anglo Saxons were a group descended from a hybrid genetic makeup of North European Hunter Gatherers and Early Neolithic farmers with a minor Indo European contribution (Siberian & Trace Gedrosia) probably from the R1a corded ware era. Makes sense as the Anglo Saxon homeland (Schleiswig Holestein) is on the fringe of the Corded Ware Area, but the heartland of the FunnelBeaker culture who were a mixed HG/Farmer group.

http://i.imgur.com/FIBiukV.jpg

Angela
11-10-14, 05:35
@Angela

Those aren't the correct K12b results for the Celt, ERS389798 , these are the results



39.04% North_European
32.43% Atlantic_Med
9.12% Caucasus
5.96% Gedrosia
3.54% Sub_Saharan
2.90% South_Asian
2.73% East_African
2.63% Northwest_African
1.63% Southwest_Asian
0.02% Siberian
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian

]

Thanks for the correction, Motzart. I edited my prior post.

It's late and my brain is fried...could you do me a favor and just check that it's now correct? If I don't here from you I'll assume the figures are correct in so far, at least, as this internet blogger is concerned. Thank you. :)

Btwy, is the EEF/WHG/ANE calculator that the Eurogenes put out available somewhere so the "Celt" can be run through it?

motzart
11-10-14, 06:01
@Angela

Looks good! I think that old EEF/WHG/ANE calculator is outdated now so not worth much

motzart
11-10-14, 06:30
As a supplement to my other post, here is the population reference for k12b
http://i.imgur.com/RGCSJEg.png

Fire Haired14
11-10-14, 06:39
So ERS389795 was not R1b or admixed with R1b people. This basically has to be our Anglo-Saxon then and gives us a lot of interesting implications about Anglo-Saxon genetic heritage. Looks like that Anglo-Saxon mask might need to come off the R1b page.

Gedorsia doesn't equal R1b. Components from admixtures are just allele frequencies. If you made me an admixture people all over west Eurasia would score in it, that doesn't mean I'm an ancient population. That guy who didn't score in Gedorsia when Geneticker tested him belonged to R1b-L11, his Y SNPs speak for themselves. Don't take Geneticker's theories seriously.

motzart
11-10-14, 06:47
He posted the final one and he also posted the context

Iron Age Britons ( Celts )

ERS389798
ERS389797

Anglo Saxons

ERS389799
ERS389796
ERS389795

motzart
11-10-14, 06:51
Gedorsia doesn't equal R1b. Components from admixtures are just allele frequencies. If you made me an admixture people all over west Eurasia would score in it, that doesn't mean I'm an ancient population. That guy who didn't score in Gedorsia when Geneticker tested him belonged to R1b-L11, his Y SNPs speak for themselves. Don't take Geneticker's theories seriously.

Eurogenes says L11+, Genetiker says not R1b

Eurogenes is calling 95 an Iron age Briton, Genetiker calls him an Anglo Saxon

Genetiker has a lot better analysis though, I hope we get a definitive haplotype soon

http://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-an-ancient-english-genome/



OK EDIT:

I think Eurogenes is talking about ERS389798, but saying that it is ERS389795.

He mentions that the sample is high coverage, and that only the Iron age samples are high coverage. Genetiker refers to only 98/97 as iron age and high coverage and 95 as low coverage.

Sile
11-10-14, 08:27
Eurogenes says L11+, Genetiker says not R1b

Eurogenes is calling 95 an Iron age Briton, Genetiker calls him an Anglo Saxon

Genetiker has a lot better analysis though, I hope we get a definitive haplotype soon

http://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-an-ancient-english-genome/



OK EDIT:

I think Eurogenes is talking about ERS389798, but saying that it is ERS389795.

He mentions that the sample is high coverage, and that only the Iron age samples are high coverage. Genetiker refers to only 98/97 as iron age and high coverage and 95 as low coverage.

Don't take eurogenes seriously , they are claiming anglo-saxon :shocked:or even argyll:startled:...............the body is from the period 500BC to 200AD ...the earliest the anglo-saxons entered England was 450AD....thats at best 250 years after of at worst 950 years after.
As for Argyll, it in west scotland, migrated by gaelic people from ireland.....east scotland was the picts

Also remeber, that iron-age england finished in 50 AD according to English scholars.
IIRC, some even say Norman :confused2:

Sile
11-10-14, 08:30
Gedorsia doesn't equal R1b. Components from admixtures are just allele frequencies. If you made me an admixture people all over west Eurasia would score in it, that doesn't mean I'm an ancient population. That guy who didn't score in Gedorsia when Geneticker tested him belonged to R1b-L11, his Y SNPs speak for themselves. Don't take Geneticker's theories seriously.

why.............where do you think gedrosia is?

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27456-The-Gedrosia-component-and-the-origin-of-R1b-M269?p=394454&viewfull=1#post394454

Sile
11-10-14, 08:46
@Motzart

Malta boy is not R1 ....don't take eurogenes seriously...he is R* ( neither R1 nor R2 )

Sile
11-10-14, 10:08
http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?p=393354#post393354

check post and links inside

MOESAN
11-10-14, 11:26
So ERS389795 was not R1b or admixed with R1b people. This basically has to be our Anglo-Saxon then and gives us a lot of interesting implications about Anglo-Saxon genetic heritage. Looks like that Anglo-Saxon mask might need to come off the R1b page.

I don't underestand your point here...
this man had NO Y-DNA??? If he pertained not to the cited haplo's, to which pertained he? I deduce it was an Y-R1b, or I missed something...

Aberdeen
11-10-14, 12:44
It's a lot easier to make sense of the percentages now we know that two of the results are from the pre-Roman period (2200 years BP) and three are from the Anglo-Saxon period (1300 years BP). And it sort of confirms my suspicion that the modern population of the Scotttish lowlands are a lot more Germanic, genetically speaking, than they like to think they are.

MOESAN
11-10-14, 14:42
It's a lot easier to make sense of the percentages now we know that two of the results are from the pre-Roman period (2200 years BP) and three are from the Anglo-Saxon period (1300 years BP). And it sort of confirms my suspicion that the modern population of the Scotttish lowlands are a lot more Germanic, genetically speaking, than they like to think they are.

we have to precise what we think when we say Lowlands:
when I say Lowlands I think: Glasgow great area (+ Renfrew, North Lanark,) plus Stirling, so a s whoel the more industrial area - the Edinburgh region Lothians) is already different, more Anglo-Saxon heritage, as in TODAY Grampians (Eatsern Highlands, around Aberdeen far away): old Aberdeensh, Angus, Kincardine, where Picts were replaced partly by newcomers until recently, from England (+ a new light wave after petrol discoveries) -
the West and the east doesn't present the same types (external), nor the same %s of surnames, and surely not the exactly same genetics -
Glasgow area presents an heavy enough 'mediterranean' (anthropo) impact easy to check at first sight, and too an heavy enough all-celtic imput - the Gaelic Highlands emigrees went rather to Glasgow than to Edinburgh region - (and I recall that Western Scotland spoke gaelic long enough, unti) XVIII° century, South to Glasgow, as in Ayrsh and Galloway!!!) -
so yes Glasgow region shows (for me) more Anglo-Saxon or generally Germanics imput than Ireland, Cornwall or Wales, even than Black Country West of England, but in moderate proportions - East Borders, Edinburgh and East grampians show more Germanics imput
as always I speak here of original People of the 1950's but they have not been suddenly swept out.
just my thought, according to readings but to personal (scarce but in accord) observations too

Aaron1981
11-10-14, 17:29
So ERS389795 was not R1b or admixed with R1b people. This basically has to be our Anglo-Saxon then and gives us a lot of interesting implications about Anglo-Saxon genetic heritage. Looks like that Anglo-Saxon mask might need to come off the R1b page.

No it should not. They were both R1b. One was AT LEAST L11+, may have been P312 or U106 positive but we may never know. The other was apparently L21+.

Angela
11-10-14, 17:37
Wouldn't the world be a much better place if people would just admit it when they screw up?

Clearly, for reasons that are beyond me, the release of the genomes did not include an attribution to culture or time period for any of the numbered samples. Now that results are available for all the genomes, and given the description in the abstract, it would seem that Genetiker was correct and that the first genome we were discussing is that of someone from the Anglo Saxon period.

To clear up some obvious confusion, five samples were analyzed, two from the pre-Roman British Iron Age, and three from the Anglo Saxon period.

From the Abstract:
We present whole genome sequences generated from five individuals that were found in archaeological excavations at the Wellcome Trust Genome Campus near Cambridge (UK), two of which are dated to around 2,000 years before present (Iron Age), and three to around 1,300 years before present (Anglo-Saxon period). I.E. 700 AD.


As I said, it now seems pretty clear that ERS389797 and ERS389798 are Iron Age, and ERS389795, 389796 and 389799 are from the Anglo-Saxon period.The 798 Iron Age male was probably R1b, and possibly belonged to R1b1a2a1a2c1g2-FGC3903/S5201/Y2890.T
There is some debate about the 795 Anglo Saxon period male, and Genetiker may have been wrong here. The Anglo-Saxon period male may have carried an upstream branch of R1b.

So, to recap:
ERS389798 -Iron Age Kelt R1b- L21, possibly R1b1a2a1a2c1g2-FGC3903/S5201/Y2890.T
K12b



39.04% North_European
32.43% Atlantic_Med
9.12% Caucasus
5.96% Gedrosia
3.54% Sub_Saharan
2.90% South_Asian
2.73% East_African
2.63% Northwest_African
1.63% Southwest_Asian
0.02% Siberian
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian


ERS389795-Anglo Saxon Period Male-possibly R1b L11+
K12b



49.89% North_European
30.08% Atlantic_Med
9.78% Caucasus
3.63% East_Asian
3.19% Sub_Saharan
1.31% Northwest_African
1.16% Siberian
0.79% East_African
0.08% Gedrosia
0.07% South_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian



The Anglo-Saxon period male has approximately the same amount of "Caucasus" as the Iron Age Celt, and only 2.5 points less Atlantic Med. However, he is 11 points more "North European". He also has 3.63% East Asian, and 1.16% Siberian, none of which show up in the Iron Age Celt.

The Iron Age Celt has 2.63% Northwest African, compared to 1.31%, he has 2.73% East African, compared to .79%, and he has 5.96% Gedrosia and 2.90% South Asian, compared to virtually none for the Anglo-Saxon.

No wonder we can find the following statement in the abstract:
the Iron Age samples share more low frequency variation than the later ones with present day samples from southern Europe, in particular Spain (1000GP IBS). In addition the Anglo-Saxon period samples appear to share a stronger older component with Finnish (1000GP FIN) individuals.

The more northern, more northeastern "tilt" of the Anglo-Saxon sample seems pretty clear.

I'm not comfortable with placing the Iron Age samples within a specific archaeological context until we get the paper. All that the abstract says is that the samples came from five individuals that were found in archaeological excavations at the Wellcome Trust Genome Campus near Cambridge (UK), There seems to be some confusion about whether they are indeed Belgae related samples.

I would still like to see an EEF/WHG/ANE read on the Iron Age sample if anyone has it. Although I don't have a lot of confidence in that blogger calculator, it is at least based on actual ancient genomes. I have even less confidence in his later efforts.

Please correct if necessary...it seems to be a moving target. :)


Ed. Also from the abstract, "We find in particular that while the Anglo-Saxon samples resemble more closely the modern British population than the earlier samples..."
So, some of those earlier papers based on the analysis of the y chromosome which posited very large amounts of gene flow from the Anglo Saxons into all the British Isles may indeed have been correct.

Aaron1981
11-10-14, 17:43
Wouldn't the world be a much better place if people would just admit it when they screw up?

Clearly, for reasons that are beyond me, the release of the genomes did not include an attribution to culture or time period for any of the numbered samples. Now that results are available for all the genomes, and given the description in the abstract, it would seem that Genetiker was correct and that the first genome we were discussing is that of someone from the Anglo Saxon period.

To clear up some obvious confusion, five samples were analyzed, two from the pre-Roman British Iron Age, and three from the Anglo Saxon period.

From the Abstract:
We present whole genome sequences generated from five individuals that were found in archaeological excavations at the Wellcome Trust Genome Campus near Cambridge (UK), two of which are dated to around 2,000 years before present (Iron Age), and three to around 1,300 years before present (Anglo-Saxon period). I.E. 700 AD.


As I said, it now seems pretty clear that ERS389797 and ERS389798 are Iron Age, and ERS389795, 389796 and 389799 are from the Anglo-Saxon period.The 798 Iron Age male was probably R1b, and possibly belonged to R1b1a2a1a2c1g2-FGC3903/S5201/Y2890.T
There is some debate about the 795 Anglo Saxon period male, and Genetiker may have been wrong here. The Anglo-Saxon period male may have carried an upstream branch of R1b.

So, to recap:
ERS389798 -Iron Age Kelt R1b- L21, possibly R1b1a2a1a2c1g2-FGC3903/S5201/Y2890.T
K12b



39.04% North_European
32.43% Atlantic_Med
9.12% Caucasus
5.96% Gedrosia
3.54% Sub_Saharan
2.90% South_Asian
2.73% East_African
2.63% Northwest_African
1.63% Southwest_Asian
0.02% Siberian
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian


ERS389795-Anglo Saxon Period Male-possibly R1b L11+
K12b



49.89% North_European
30.08% Atlantic_Med
9.78% Caucasus
3.63% East_Asian
3.19% Sub_Saharan
1.31% Northwest_African
1.16% Siberian
0.79% East_African
0.08% Gedrosia
0.07% South_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian



The Anglo-Saxon period male has approximately the same amount of "Caucasus" as the Iron Age Celt, and only 2.5 points less Atlantic Med. However, he is 11 points more "North European". He also has 3.63% East Asian, and 1.16% Siberian, none of which show up in the Iron Age Celt.

The Iron Age Celt has 2.63% Northwest African, compared to 1.31%, he has 2.73% East African, compared to .79%, and he has 5.96% Gedrosia and 2.90% South Asian, compared to virtually none for the Anglo-Saxon.

No wonder we can find the following statement in the abstract:
the Iron Age samples share more low frequency variation than the later ones with present day samples from southern Europe, in particular Spain (1000GP IBS). In addition the Anglo-Saxon period samples appear to share a stronger older component with Finnish (1000GP FIN) individuals.

The more northern, more northeastern "tilt" of the Anglo-Saxon sample seems pretty clear.

I'm not comfortable with placing the Iron Age samples within a specific archaeological context until we get the paper. All that the abstract says is that the samples came from five individuals that were found in archaeological excavations at the Wellcome Trust Genome Campus near Cambridge (UK), There seems to be some confusion about whether they are indeed Belgae related samples.

I would still like to see an EEF/WHG/ANE read on the Iron Age sample if anyone has it. Although I don't have a lot of confidence in that blogger calculator, it is at least based on actual ancient genomes. I have even less confidence in his later efforts.

Please correct if necessary...it seems to be a moving target. :)

Great analysis. The fact that there is lower coverage on the Anglo-Saxons results leads me to believe they are much noisier. Probably too high North European, and phantom East Asian and SSA results.

Sile
11-10-14, 18:36
No it should not. They were both R1b. One was AT LEAST L11+, may have been P312 or U106 positive but we may never know. The other was apparently L21+.

there was no L11 that I can see, it was L151 ...............same branch of the R1b tree

This is for ERS389795

Angela
11-10-14, 20:02
One of many questions that remains open for me is whether this ancient Briton is representative of all the Pre-Roman Iron Age inhabitants of the British Isles.

Once again, these are the results for what is probably a "Briton" or Iron Age Celt from what is now East Anglia:
K12b



39.04% North_European
32.43% Atlantic_Med
9.12% Caucasus
5.96% Gedrosia
3.54% Sub_Saharan
2.90% South_Asian
2.73% East_African
2.63% Northwest_African
1.63% Southwest_Asian
0.02% Siberian
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian


Now let's look at the Cornish sample:
North European 42.8
Atlantic Med 43.8
Caucasus 2
Gedrosia 11.4

The North Euro component is only 3 points higher, which one could say might be the result of internal migration and intermarriage over the centuries.

However, how did the Cornish go from 32.43% Atlantic Med (if our ancient sample was representative of all the pre-Roman Iron Age Britons) to 43.8% Atlantic Med? Their Atlantic Med numbers are pretty "French" looking. Even the Argyl (41.2), English (41.5), and Orcadian (42.4) Atlantic Med numbers are substantially higher than those of our ancient Briton.

So, I'm still left wondering if there were populations in Britain at that time that were substantially more EEF than the sample we have, either because of differential gene flow over the centuries into the east coast that made them different, or because this sample also came from a relatively more recent migration.

polako
12-10-14, 04:03
Wouldn't the world be a much better place if people would just admit it when they screw up?

The samples aren't labeled so its hard to know who they represent, but it doesn't hurt to speculate as long as the analysis is correct.

You're the one screwing up, because you don't understand that the results you're analyzing are biased.

It's basic high school science. You should try and understand it, for your own good.

Angela
12-10-14, 22:43
You should try not being such a bully. I have read your argument that the Dodecad runs are defective because of the "calculator effect", and yours are not, many times. It did not convince me when you made it years ago on the Dienekes site, revealing a lack of familiarity with statistical analysis and logical argument in the process, by the way, and it doesn't convince me now. Repeating it over and over again will not make it true.

In fact, I don't think you exhibit any understanding of the "calculator effect", and neither do the people who quote you. For anyone who is actually interested in the topic, please see the following written by someone who actually understands statistics and these programs:
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/08/on-so-called-calculator-effect.html
The comments section provides additional information.

Since you insist upon being rude, in my opinion your calculators are seriously flawed, as anyone who followed the posts that explained how they were created would know. The inconsistent results even within the individual runs themselves are just further proof. In the world as it still is, I am entitled to that opinion.

Your analytical ability in terms of academic papers was on display on this site just recently. I also found that unimpressive. In addition, although everyone has been wrong at one point or another, if the list of your totally inaccurate opinions and conclusions over the years were written down they would fill a city phone book. I know you have deleted pages of them from the internet but some people know how to take screenshots and keep files.

Oh, and I sincerely hope you are not threatening me in some way. It is very unwise to do such a thing without knowing the cards the other person may be holding. At any rate, I am not intimidated.

Now you go to the top of the ignore list.