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View Full Version : M223 - Upgraded to 32 Markers. Help identifying which one I belong to?



JFWR
09-10-14, 08:05
Dear everyone,

I recently availed myself of upgrading to 32 markers at a discounted price over at FTDNA. I haven't received 7 of my markers yet, as apparently those are still pending, but I have 25 of them present.

Might anyone help me identify which group of M223 I belong to?



DYS393
DYS390
DYS19
DYS391
DYS385
DYS426
DYS388
DYS439
DYS389I
DYS392
DYS389II
DYS458
DYS459
DYS455
DYS454
DYS447
DYS437
DYS448
DYS449
DYS464


14
23
15
10
15-15
11
13
11
13
12
29
16
8-10
11
11
26
15
20
29
11-13-14-14



Those are the results.

Thanks kindly.

sparkey
09-10-14, 09:20
Cullen's Predictor is already placing you squarely in the "Roots" STR cluster. Let's wait for the full result before talking SNPs. In the meantime, it wouldn't hurt to join FTDNA's M223 Project.

P.S. Have you gotten your work on the philosophy of time published yet?

Aberdeen
09-10-14, 10:25
Cullen's Predictor is already placing you squarely in the "Roots" STR cluster. Let's wait for the full result before talking SNPs. In the meantime, it wouldn't hurt to join FTDNA's M223 Project.

P.S. Have you gotten your work on the philosophy of time published yet?

I know this is really off topic, but I've always been interested in the idea of time, even though I'm too scientifically illiterate to understand books such as "A Brief History of Time". My theory is that time is a unit of measurement rather than a fourth dimension, since every unit of finite time is either a division or multiple of either the Earth's rotation around its axis or the Earth's rotation around the Sun, so I see "infinite time" as a situation where there isn't a suitable yardstick to measure with. If my concept if wrong, nobody so far has been able to tell me why.

JFWR
09-10-14, 19:57
Cullen's Predictor is already placing you squarely in the "Roots" STR cluster. Let's wait for the full result before talking SNPs. In the meantime, it wouldn't hurt to join FTDNA's M223 Project.

P.S. Have you gotten your work on the philosophy of time published yet?

Thanks, my good sir! I will hit you guys up with more info as it becomes available. I may have to call up to see whether something is wrong with the last 7 markers or something, as it says "complete" even with "lab results pending".

As for my philosophy of time work: Yes and no. Yes in that it was my master's thesis (on route to a Ph.D.), no in that I am going to parse it up and expand sections for the sake of getting it published in journals. So far, I haven't gotten to do that project yet, though I am intending to soon.

This reminds me: I had an important thought about time the other day and now I can't remember it. Damnit!

JFWR
09-10-14, 19:59
I know this is really off topic, but I've always been interested in the idea of time, even though I'm too scientifically illiterate to understand books such as "A Brief History of Time". My theory is that time is a unit of measurement rather than a fourth dimension, since every unit of finite time is either a division or multiple of either the Earth's rotation around its axis or the Earth's rotation around the Sun, so I see "infinite time" as a situation where there isn't a suitable yardstick to measure with. If my concept if wrong, nobody so far has been able to tell me why.

You're mistaking the measurement for the phenomena, the yardstick for the yard. "An hour" is a unit of measurement; time is a phenomena that allows for there to -be- hours (and for to -be- change, even though it is not identical with change).

Aberdeen
09-10-14, 23:52
You're mistaking the measurement for the phenomena, the yardstick for the yard. "An hour" is a unit of measurement; time is a phenomena that allows for there to -be- hours (and for to -be- change, even though it is not identical with change).

So, how do you prove that time exists independently of the units we use to measure it, and what is it? A kilogram is a unit of measurement of weight, but we can demonstrate that mass exists to be measured. What is time? Yes, I know - time is motion through space. But that isn't a description of an independent phenomenon.

Maciamo
10-10-14, 07:46
JFWR, I don't understand why you would order an Y-STR-32 test to know your deep subclade, when the most reliable way is through a SNP test like Geno 2.0 (which is about the same price as the FTDNA 37 markers STR test and also gives you mtDNA and autosomal DNA for free).

Sile
10-10-14, 08:47
And as per maciano stated................you can then transfer the natgeno2 results to ftdna for free .

And from end of September 2014 , all positive and all negatives from natgeno2 transfers are noted/shown in your ftdna tree

sparkey
10-10-14, 18:28
JFWR, I don't understand why you would order an Y-STR-32 test to know your deep subclade, when the most reliable way is through a SNP test like Geno 2.0 (which is about the same price as the FTDNA 37 markers STR test and also gives you mtDNA and autosomal DNA for free).

I2 is different than R1b. 32 markers can point you to very specific SNPs to test, including plenty that aren't tested via Geno 2.0. And he gets the additional benefits that come with STR testing, like matching other individuals at a higher resolution than SNP testing. I think he went the right direction with this.

JFWR
14-10-14, 08:10
So, how do you prove that time exists independently of the units we use to measure it, and what is it? A kilogram is a unit of measurement of weight, but we can demonstrate that mass exists to be measured. What is time? Yes, I know - time is motion through space. But that isn't a description of an independent phenomenon.

You cannot measure a unit which has no basis in reality. Temperature reflects actual movement of particles, for instance, and distance measures extension. Time measures temporal extension, that is to say, the distance between states along a dimension of time.

Were time not to exist, the very change which allows us to distinguish between moments would not be possible. Time is not equivalent to change, but allows change to exist.

Think of it like this: There'd be no "up" if we had only two dimensions of space. Likewise, if there was no time, change would be impossible. But time must necessary exist apart from any change, in order that change can occur.

JFWR
14-10-14, 08:13
JFWR, I don't understand why you would order an Y-STR-32 test to know your deep subclade, when the most reliable way is through a SNP test like Geno 2.0 (which is about the same price as the FTDNA 37 markers STR test and also gives you mtDNA and autosomal DNA for free).

Geno 2.0 does that now? Because when I had participated in the Genographic project several years ago, I got only a crappy y-12 test for my trouble and money.

I independently did a MTDNA test. I've never done autosomal.

Wow. Way to change the process on us, National Geo. I am displeased.

JFWR
14-10-14, 08:16
I2 is different than R1b. 32 markers can point you to very specific SNPs to test, including plenty that aren't tested via Geno 2.0. And he gets the additional benefits that come with STR testing, like matching other individuals at a higher resolution than SNP testing. I think he went the right direction with this.

I am glad I didn't entirely waste my money, then. Autosomal would have been interesting, though I was primarily interested in expanding on my Y-12 test that gave me preliminary results. Nat Geo used to provide virtually nothing, as you may recall, and I didn't even think to try their Genographic 2.0 scheme.

JFWR
25-10-14, 04:42
So, the last 12 markers finally came in!



Marker
DYS460
Y-GATA-H4
YCAII
DYS456
DYS607
DYS576
DYS570
CDY
DYS442
DYS438


Value
11
10
19-20
16
15
19
18
32-35
12
10

sparkey
25-10-14, 08:13
So the bad news is that Cullen's Predictor is now a little less sure that you're in the Roots cluster, although it's still over 50%. You also have nobody closer than 3 steps away from you on YSearch. Fortunately your closest matches include a Thomas family from Cornwall, hence a geographical match, and another 3 step away Thomas (probably the same family but not 100% certain) is already classified at the M223 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/M223-Y-Clan/) in the Roots 1 group. See your fairly close match at kit number 70989.

I'd still recommend joining the M223 Project, although if you'd rather not, I can say that they'll probably start by recommending you to upgrade to 67 STRs and/or test SNPs L1229 (to confirm Roots) and Z2054 (to confirm Roots 1).

Funny that you should match a Thomas family from Mullion. I've spent far too much time trying to knock down a brick wall in my genealogy at a point where I reach a Thomas family in Mullion. I could be related to the Thomases that you match. Or not, because I've hit a brick wall there. The surname "Thomas" in Cornwall is like the surname "Jones" in Wales.

JFWR
27-10-14, 04:11
So the bad news is that Cullen's Predictor is now a little less sure that you're in the Roots cluster, although it's still over 50%. You also have nobody closer than 3 steps away from you on YSearch. Fortunately your closest matches include a Thomas family from Cornwall, hence a geographical match, and another 3 step away Thomas (probably the same family but not 100% certain) is already classified at the M223 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/M223-Y-Clan/) in the Roots 1 group. See your fairly close match at kit number 70989.

I'd still recommend joining the M223 Project, although if you'd rather not, I can say that they'll probably start by recommending you to upgrade to 67 STRs and/or test SNPs L1229 (to confirm Roots) and Z2054 (to confirm Roots 1).

Funny that you should match a Thomas family from Mullion. I've spent far too much time trying to knock down a brick wall in my genealogy at a point where I reach a Thomas family in Mullion. I could be related to the Thomases that you match. Or not, because I've hit a brick wall there. The surname "Thomas" in Cornwall is like the surname "Jones" in Wales.

Thanks kindly!

I shall have to join the project ASAP if I have not already. In fact, I think I may have already. Let me check now...

Yep. I'm there.

I shall wait for another good sale for 67 or the specific SNPS to clarify that.

Question: Why is it called "roots"? Is this the root stem of the clade, as it were? Obviously, continental and isles is somewhat more self-explanatory.

It seems us Cornish folk are related after all. That's good. Confirmation of history is always pleasing in that regard.

sparkey
27-10-14, 08:06
I shall have to join the project ASAP if I have not already. In fact, I think I may have already. Let me check now...

Yep. I'm there.

Ah, "ungrouped," I suppose they just haven't gotten around to grouping you yet.


Question: Why is it called "roots"? Is this the root stem of the clade, as it were? Obviously, continental and isles is somewhat more self-explanatory.

I think when Nordtvedt first identified the cluster, it had the oldest TMRCA of ~5000 YBP, compared to ~3500 YBP of each of Cont1, Cont2, Cont3, and Isles-Eng (Isles-Scot being even younger). That meant that it was closer to the "roots" and didn't have as clear a connection to modern groups of people. Of course, since then, we've found a lot of outlier M223 that doesn't fit into any of these, and all of Isles put together has come to have a similar phylogenetic tree as Roots, but it remains the case that Roots doesn't have a clear association with Celtic/Germanic/etc.

JFWR
27-10-14, 19:22
Ah, "ungrouped," I suppose they just haven't gotten around to grouping you yet.



I think when Nordtvedt first identified the cluster, it had the oldest TMRCA of ~5000 YBP, compared to ~3500 YBP of each of Cont1, Cont2, Cont3, and Isles-Eng (Isles-Scot being even younger). That meant that it was closer to the "roots" and didn't have as clear a connection to modern groups of people. Of course, since then, we've found a lot of outlier M223 that doesn't fit into any of these, and all of Isles put together has come to have a similar phylogenetic tree as Roots, but it remains the case that Roots doesn't have a clear association with Celtic/Germanic/etc.

Ah, that's very interesting. So it hasn't been pinpointed associated with any specific ethnic/tribal designation? Very intriguing.

Hmm! Cool stuff, really.

JFWR
01-03-15, 16:19
I had upgraded when I got a huge discount a few months ago and the results are finally in:

I ran this through Cullen's predictor and got:

Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows:
I-S24 =>99%


Haplo-I Subclades and probabilities are as follows:
I-M223-Root1 =>56% I-M223-Root3 =>22% I-M223-Root2 =>19% I-M284-Isles/Sc =>1%



DYS393
DYS390
DYS19
DYS391
DYS385
DYS426
DYS388
DYS439
DYS389I
DYS392
DYS389II
DYS458
DYS459
DYS455
DYS454
DYS447
DYS437
DYS448
DYS449
DYS464
DYS460
Y-GATA-H4
YCAII
DYS456
DYS607
DYS576
DYS570
CDY
DYS442
DYS438
DYS531
DYS578
DYF395S1
DYS590
DYS537
DYS641
DYS472
DYF406S1
DYS511
DYS425
DYS413
DYS557
DYS594
DYS436
DYS490
DYS534
DYS450
DYS444
DYS481
DYS520
DYS446
DYS617
DYS568
DYS487
DYS572
DYS640
DYS492
DYS565


14
23
15
10
15-15
11
13
11
13
12
29
16
10-Aug
11
11
26
15
20
29
11-13-14-14
11
10
19-20
16
15
19
18
32-35
12
10
11
8
15-16
8
12
10
8
10
9
13
21-22
15
11
12
12
16
9
14
26
22
8
11
12
13
11
12
13
11

JFWR
01-03-15, 16:21
So, it seems I'm fairly firmly in the roots category. Is "roots" not associated still with any known populations?

sparkey
04-03-15, 21:53
So, it seems I'm fairly firmly in the roots category. Is "roots" not associated still with any known populations?

As far as I'm aware, nobody has untangled the history of the Roots cluster yet. Maybe you could analyze your own line by looking at the distribution of your closest matches?

JFWR
05-03-15, 02:57
As far as I'm aware, nobody has untangled the history of the Roots cluster yet. Maybe you could analyze your own line by looking at the distribution of your closest matches?

Sounds like a very good idea to me, my good sir.

I'll do some research and post some findings.

JFWR
05-03-15, 04:48
At 67 markers, I only have 2 -5 matches (the closest match). 1 from Ireland, one from the US.

At 37 markers, I have 4 -3 matches. 2 from England, 1 from Ireland, and 1 from the US.

As I know from my paternal ancestry that I am Cornish.

The problem, of course, is both England (and to a lesser extent, Ireland) is both Celtic and Germanic. Though isn't it generally the case that I is more strongly associated with certain Germanic tribes than Celtic?

sparkey
05-03-15, 21:24
At 67 markers, I only have 2 -5 matches (the closest match). 1 from Ireland, one from the US.

At 37 markers, I have 4 -3 matches. 2 from England, 1 from Ireland, and 1 from the US.

As I know from my paternal ancestry that I am Cornish.

The problem, of course, is both England (and to a lesser extent, Ireland) is both Celtic and Germanic. Though isn't it generally the case that I is more strongly associated with certain Germanic tribes than Celtic?

Yeah, I don't think you've clearly resolved yet whether your line is Anglo-Saxon, Celtic Cornish, or what. Irish matches may lean to Celtic, but then looking on the M223 Project, you're certainly in a cluster with a lot of Germans. It's tough to get any temporal resolution here without making some calculations.

I think Germanic peoples are more likely to have carried haplogroup I as a whole than Celtic peoples, but I don't think it's clear that they're more likely to have carried I2-M223-Roots in particular. Insular Celts definitely seem more likely than any Germanic peoples to have carried I2-M223-Isles, to take another example.