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View Full Version : Bones of Macedonian King Philip II, Alexander the Great's father, have been found.



motzart
11-10-14, 04:36
http://news.discovery.com/history/archaeology/remains-of-alexander-the-greats-father-confirmed-found-141009.htm

Maciamo
11-10-14, 09:01
It would be great if they could test Philip's genome as well as his Scythian wife (Alexander's mother). This way we could get Alexander's two haplogroups and infer his autosomal composition.

Maleth
11-10-14, 12:49
Is DNA extraction possible after cremation?

Yetos
11-10-14, 16:38
the bones of phillip 2nd is old case,
The Greek ministry of culture does give permission,

yesterday we have a significant search result by Democritos institute,
an institude wich is the only in Greek which is allowed to make search on everything that has to do with radio-activites,

All the wounds in the bones are exactly with what we know for King Phillip 2, except the eye,
that means either no wound in the eye, either a clear wound that did not touch the bones,

man
age 41-49 years old
wound at left hand (4o μεταταρσιο)
suffer years from ιγμοριτις ( among eyes and nose, heavy cold)
suffer from pleuritis of phymatiosis (pneumons)
an almost ruin back (αλοιωσεις σπονδυλικης) from horse riding for years and much time,
fat/thickness of the legs also from horse riding,
traces of gold found in the neck bones!!!!! it could be from the burning

THE amazing
not both bodies have unequal legs
so from that we know that the woman burried next to him had a broken left leg like King Phillip 2,
also fat/thickness from horse riding,

by the legs only we know that the first known Royal couple with 'special needs' in buried there,
and this nothing else that King Phillip and Ataia daughter of Ateas of Scythians.

rest foundings
Χουντιτης,
a matterial used to whiten textiles, is this case is local material from upper Makedonia extracted from 1500 BC,
pine resin, wax, etc etc,
Χουντιτης is known for Orphic mysteries masks, meaning that King was also a priest of Orpheus, or a similar Deity like dionysos
many times i said about Thracian tribe Pieroi and Orpheus in mt Olymp,

until yesterday we knew about Olympias that she was priestress of orpheus or Bakchos a κλωδων.
now we know that the king was also priest.
Besides their marriage was blessed by the Samothrace priests and mysteries, one of the three most powerfull, (Dodona Zeus, Delphi and souround Appolo, Samothrace Kabyres, and the Lesser, Cretan Zeus, Ephessus Artemis, and one in south Italy that I miss now)

about the mask, simmilar exist in Manchester museum, found in Egyptian Pyramids !!!!!!!! (now I am lost :thinking:)
but made from Tynisian χουντιτης,

anyway, Both Democritos institute and Phd Mr Αντικας who is in contact with American universities ask Ministry to allow genetical tests.
lets hope they find an inner inner inner spot that fire and carbon did not affect.

simmilar the military equipment of the woman is found in India !!!!! and in Danube.

kamani
11-10-14, 17:49
the scientists are not sure of the identity of the woman yet. The article says:

The finding reinforces the assumption made by Hammond as early as 1978 that the spears, arrows, quiver and greaves belonged to a warrior queen in Philip's royal household. Among the candidates proposed by Hammond were Meda, Cynna (the offspring of Philip and Audata, an Illyrian warrior princess) and an unknown daughter of the Scythian king Ateas, defeated by Philip in 339 B.C.

Yetos
11-10-14, 18:40
the scientists are not sure of the identity of the woman yet. The article says:

I am tired of your Panalbanism and panillyrianism,

The lecture was yesterday, 10/10/2014
with participation of 30 universities, in Aristotkle University, and you still say about hammond and 1978,

http://www.tribune.gr/greece/news/article/80065/apokalipsi-stin-vergina-pisti-amazona-tou-filippou.html

http://news247.gr/eidiseis/psixagogia/politismos/milhsan_ta_eyrhmata_stoys_tafoys_twn_aigwn_h_anato mia_toy_filippoy_kai_h_skuthissa_amazona.3075180.h tml

The Woman is Ataia from Atea King Of Scythians, by Scientific results, and by archaiological results,
Her guns found in India and danube,

Now if you want to claim that Illyrians or Albanians are also scythians is your problem

all the searches show the original believe, Makedones were Greeks and mixed with Thracians, (king and priest)



besides the Discovery article say,

"This leads to the conclusion that the pair of mismatched greaves -- the left is shorter --the Scynthian gorytus and weaponry found in the antechamber belonged to her," he said.
Scythian king Ateas, defeated by Philip in 339 B.C.
Only King Phillip messed up with Scythians


today we know the woman was scythian, that is why we are certain of Phillip 2nd and not Phillip 3rd.

they found even the clothes systatic material, even sea sponge is possible to was used, cause they find traces of something like it


.Ο πολεμικός οπλισμός της Σκύθισσας εντοπίσθηκε και σε άλλους 112 τάφους μεταξύ Ινδών και Δούναβη με τα ίδια όπλα που βρέθηκαν στο βασιλικό «τάφο δύο»» κατέληξε ο Θόδωρος Ακρίτας.

'simmilar weaponry found in 112 tombs from India to Istros,'

IT IS CERTIFIED THE WOMAN WAS SCYTHIAN.
:thinking: except if you believe that illyrians came from India to Danube. :shocked:

the woman's leg are so thick that she mounted at the age of 32 +- more than king Phillip
and she was an archer, a mounted woman archer, an amazon,

PS
aren't you tired guys? to smash the mosquito and swell the camel


PS 2
http://news.discovery.com/history/archaeology/remains-of-alexander-the-greats-father-confirmed-found-1410091.htm

kamani
11-10-14, 20:03
I am tired of your Panalbanism and panillyrianism,


what panalbanism!! I just quoted from the main article. Get mad at the article, whose meaning you so deviously changed.

Sile
11-10-14, 22:42
what panalbanism!! I just quoted from the main article. Get mad at the article, whose meaning you so deviously changed.

noted

but it completely kills off the Albanians saying that alexander's mother was illyrian:grin:

King Bardhyl
11-10-14, 23:13
noted

but it completely kills off the Albanians saying that alexander's mother was illyrian:grin:






You are very neat to stimulate debate among others, but you are unable to conduct a debate personally to the end.
http://www.jukani.co.za/userfiles/content/grp5/hyenashowingteeth.jpg

motzart
11-10-14, 23:14
It is so frustrating that DNA testing isn't one of the first things done on ancient remains. Hopefully this opportunity isn't lost, if they have bones then they can certainly get DNA.

Garrick
12-10-14, 00:48
I am tired of your Panalbanism and panillyrianism,

The lecture was yesterday, 10/10/2014
with participation of 30 universities, in Aristotkle University, and you still say about hammond and 1978,

http://www.tribune.gr/greece/news/article/80065/apokalipsi-stin-vergina-pisti-amazona-tou-filippou.html

http://news247.gr/eidiseis/psixagogia/politismos/milhsan_ta_eyrhmata_stoys_tafoys_twn_aigwn_h_anato mia_toy_filippoy_kai_h_skuthissa_amazona.3075180.h tml

The Woman is Ataia from Atea King Of Scythians, by Scientific results, and by archaiological results,
Her guns found in India and danube,

Now if you want to claim that Illyrians or Albanians are also scythians is your problem

all the searches show the original believe, Makedones were Greeks and mixed with Thracians, (king and priest)



besides the Discovery article say,

"This leads to the conclusion that the pair of mismatched greaves -- the left is shorter --the Scynthian gorytus and weaponry found in the antechamber belonged to her," he said.
Scythian king Ateas, defeated by Philip in 339 B.C.
Only King Phillip messed up with Scythians


today we know the woman was scythian, that is why we are certain of Phillip 2nd and not Phillip 3rd.

they found even the clothes systatic material, even sea sponge is possible to was used, cause they find traces of something like it


.Ο πολεμικός οπλισμός της Σκύθισσας εντοπίσθηκε και σε άλλους 112 τάφους μεταξύ Ινδών και Δούναβη με τα ίδια όπλα που βρέθηκαν στο βασιλικό «τάφο δύο»» κατέληξε ο Θόδωρος Ακρίτας.

'simmilar weaponry found in 112 tombs from India to Istros,'

IT IS CERTIFIED THE WOMAN WAS SCYTHIAN.
:thinking: except if you believe that illyrians came from India to Danube. :shocked:



Yes, according Oliver Masson based on Pella tablet Macedonian was North West Greek dialect.

Macedonians were Greeks.

And it is interesting that one of woman of Filip II was Scythian.

It is science.

Hmm, it does not fit in propaganda of Enver Hoxha type:

Alexander the Great was Illyrian ^ Illyrians were Albanians => Alexander the Great was Albanian

...
But. Maybe Illyrians are also Scythians and same as Albanians? Perhaps this hypothesis make sense.

Sile
12-10-14, 01:02
You are very neat to stimulate debate among others, but you are unable to conduct a debate personally to the end.
http://www.jukani.co.za/userfiles/content/grp5/hyenashowingteeth.jpg

lol, what is there to debate about, its stated on the site....she is scythian..................your a strange person. Debating with you last time led to you moving from the ancients to the modern which had nothing to do with the debate...........ooh, and then their is this quote from you " what was the road in this city" ( what are you talking about )

I enjoy seeing propaganda being destroyed.............like some who think the celts have been in britain for over 4000 years

Sile
12-10-14, 01:10
And it is interesting that one of woman of Filip II was Scythian.

It is science.

Hmm, it does not fit in propaganda of Enver Hoxha type:

Alexander the Great was Illyrian ^ Illyrians were Albanians => Alexander the Great was Albanian

...
But. Maybe Illyrians are also Scythians and same as Albanians? Perhaps this hypothesis make sense.

If albanians where scythians , then the scythians arrived around the time of Phillip II , which would mean the sarmatians are not pure scythians ( maybe only a percentage) and that the bastanae would be part scythian and part germanic.
IIRC , the bastanae sent 80000 men, women and children to aid the macedonians against their wars against the illyrians coming the north-east.

King Bardhyl
12-10-14, 05:18
lol, what is there to debate about, its stated on the site....she is scythian..................your a strange person. Debating with you last time led to you moving from the ancients to the modern which had nothing to do with the debate...........ooh, and then their is this quote from you " what was the road in this city" ( what are you talking about )

I enjoy seeing propaganda being destroyed.............like some who think the celts have been in britain for over 4000 years

Wrong ,i have never made a debate with you, and you know the reason .

King Bardhyl
12-10-14, 05:21
Yes, according Oliver Masson based on Pella tablet Macedonian was North West Greek dialect.

Macedonians were Greeks.

And it is interesting that one of woman of Filip II was Scythian.

It is science.

Hmm, it does not fit in propaganda of Enver Hoxha type:

Alexander the Great was Illyrian ^ Illyrians were Albanians => Alexander the Great was Albanian

...
But. Maybe Illyrians are also Scythians and same as Albanians? Perhaps this hypothesis make sense.

Your intellectual discussion serv to us to understand a lot.
It's a sin that you don't use such arguments at the right place.

Sile
12-10-14, 07:00
Wrong ,i have never made a debate with you, and you know the reason .

yes, I know why you don't and you know why I don't

King Bardhyl
12-10-14, 07:30
Wrong ,i have never made a debate with you, and you know the reason .

Mordi e Fuggi .
More clear?
BTW, nice photo.

Garrick
12-10-14, 10:23
Your intellectual discussion serv to us to understand a lot.
It's a sin that you don't use such arguments at the right place.

You always angry when someone mentions science and difference between science and fiction (propaganda).

Some Albanians (and some Slavic Macedonians too) shout that Alexander the Great is Albanian (respectively their in the case of Slavic Macedonians), but it is fantasy, we all know that.

...
Macedonian is North-Western Greek dialect, not mythical non-existent fictitious praAlbanian nor praSlavicMacedonian.

You can read the book (it is science):

A Grammar of Modern Indo-European, Second edition

by Carlos Quiles with Fernando Lopez-Menchero

"The Pella curse tablet, a text written in a distinct Doric Greek idiom, found in Pella in 1986, dated to between mid to early 4th century BC, has been forwarded as an argument that the Ancient Macedonian language was a dialect of North-Western Greek. Before the discovery it was proposed that the Macedonian dialect was an early form of Greek, spoken alongside Doric proper at that time.

NOTE. Olivier Masson thinks that “in contrast with earlier wiews which made of it an Aeolic dialect (O. Hoffmann compared Thessalian) we must by now think of a link with North-West Greek (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote). This view is supported by the recent discovery at Pella of a curse tablet which may well be the first ‘Macedonian’ text attested (…)< the text includes an adverb “opoka” which is not Thessalian”. Also, James L. O’Neil states that the “curse tablet from Pella shows word forms which are clearly Doric, but a different form of Dorric from any of the west Greek dialects of areas adjoining Macedon. "

Vedun
12-10-14, 11:41
Is DNA extraction possible after cremation?

No. There exist DNA repair mechanisms in biochemistry & genetics, which can repair damaged DNA; for example BER (Base excision repair), DNA polymerases(for long patches or short patches), lygases... As far I can remember, I was working on the DNA polymerase. I extracted the DNA out (from a fruit (banana ;D) and then used DNA polymerase with a special machine..., then I've added the 10% iodine dilution & observed the chromatid entanglement under the microscope...

King Bardhyl
12-10-14, 11:42
You always angry when someone mentions science and difference between science and fiction (propaganda).

Some Albanians (and some Slavic Macedonians too) shout that Alexander the Great is Albanian (respectively their in the case of Slavic Macedonians), but it is fantasy, we all know that.

...
Macedonian is North-Western Greek dialect, not mythical non-existent fictitious praAlbanian nor praSlavicMacedonian.

You can read the book (it is science):

A Grammar of Modern Indo-European, Second edition

by Carlos Quiles with Fernando Lopez-Menchero

"The Pella curse tablet, a text written in a distinct Doric Greek idiom, found in Pella in 1986, dated to between mid to early 4th century BC, has been forwarded as an argument that the Ancient Macedonian language was a dialect of North-Western Greek. Before the discovery it was proposed that the Macedonian dialect was an early form of Greek, spoken alongside Doric proper at that time.

NOTE. Olivier Masson thinks that “in contrast with earlier wiews which made of it an Aeolic dialect (O. Hoffmann compared Thessalian) we must by now think of a link with North-West Greek (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote). This view is supported by the recent discovery at Pella of a curse tablet which may well be the first ‘Macedonian’ text attested (…)< the text includes an adverb “opoka” which is not Thessalian”. Also, James L. O’Neil states that the “curse tablet from Pella shows word forms which are clearly Doric, but a different form of Dorric from any of the west Greek dialects of areas adjoining Macedon. "

No, i am not angry, it's a pleasure for me to communicate with you . The problem is that you are off-topic , we can discuss in another thread about this and you know where.

I have express my opinion about ancient macedonian. You can read my previous posts.
Never heard before about this Carlos Tequila. Also read the most important scholar about Alexander the Great life, TARN .


BTW, did you explain to your teacher , your opinion about illyrians, albanians etc. You have to speak with your Ministry of Education in Serbia ,propose them to change your textbook of history in the serbian schools .

P. S.
You can't make parallels between albanians and our noble neighbours of FYROM.

Yetos
12-10-14, 14:10
debate has to do with democracy, and in democracy we learn to accept others opinion, as long as it stated, well based, and possible,
if an opinion is not stable, or not scientific based, then is not debate, it is faith

preaching faith, is not a scientific method, cause science accept mistakes, and is using tools to prove the accepted,
Faith is absolute, correct or mistaken.

many times I felt in such situation,.
to make my dogma science? or to accept science and reject my faith,

simply faith is not science,
and faith is tricky, and must be excluded in judging (crisis from critising, κριτικη)


we can all be Jihand when our faith is insulted,
but non of us becomes Jihand when our science is insulted,
Why?

Yetos
12-10-14, 15:08
nothing ...............

Yetos
12-10-14, 15:19
Yes, according Oliver Masson based on Pella tablet Macedonian was North West Greek dialect.

Macedonians were Greeks.

And it is interesting that one of woman of Filip II was Scythian.

It is science.

Hmm, it does not fit in propaganda of Enver Hoxha type:

Alexander the Great was Illyrian ^ Illyrians were Albanians => Alexander the Great was Albanian

...
But. Maybe Illyrians are also Scythians and same as Albanians? Perhaps this hypothesis make sense.


If albanians where scythians , then the scythians arrived around the time of Phillip II , which would mean the sarmatians are not pure scythians ( maybe only a percentage) and that the bastanae would be part scythian and part germanic.
IIRC , the bastanae sent 80000 men, women and children to aid the macedonians against their wars against the illyrians coming the north-east.


hmmm

intersting case,:thinking:

solves a lot of our questions :smile:

Yetos
12-10-14, 16:08
No. There exist DNA repair mechanisms in biochemistry & genetics, which can repair damaged DNA; for example BER (Base excision repair), DNA polymerases(for long patches or short patches), lygases... As far I can remember, I was working on the DNA polymerase. I extracted the DNA out (from a fruit (banana ;D) and then used DNA polymerase with a special machine..., then I've added the 10% iodine dilution & observed the chromatid entanglement under the microscope...


Any idea how much can recover?

in vergina tomps we have bones, not ashes,
ok we consider bones as the dry stereo fragments, but how much?
outside the are the calciumm phosphates, but how much could left inside?

we speak about an open cremation above woods, and bones gathered and washed, not smashed,
different than modern cremation in a machine,
ok sulfur and carbon get evaporized as gases,
but could inside the bones small amounts be left? μυελος των οστων, bone myelic traces?


ok I know that DNA can not be exctrat after cremation, I agree with 'No'
but I wonder why they ask permission to do DNA tests?

Maleth
12-10-14, 17:36
No. There exist DNA repair mechanisms in biochemistry & genetics, which can repair damaged DNA; for example BER (Base excision repair), DNA polymerases(for long patches or short patches), lygases... As far I can remember, I was working on the DNA polymerase. I extracted the DNA out (from a fruit (banana ;D) and then used DNA polymerase with a special machine..., then I've added the 10% iodine dilution & observed the chromatid entanglement under the microscope...

Thank you for the info Verdun. That sounds interesting. I asked the question because a friend of mine contacted a local well qualified coordinator (from the University of Belfast) that is working on the local Megalithic Temples, enquring about dna testing on the bones found on site were no dna has been taken yet.

The reply was that the reason for not having any DNA tests is because the method till now is not well enough advanced to deal with material from anything other than cooler climates. She also mentioned that DNA is very susceptible to change and decay, and is unreliable in warm climates, hence no ancient DNA from places south of the Alps. She also mentioned that things are changing and a possible breakthrough in methods will allow the team many questions we have (generally speaking). Checking diets is far more reliable then DNA to know from which other populations the temple builders came from (in the local case).

However my question is if this was true how come we have dna results of 7000 yr old skeletons found in warmer climates? (!) Sorry Im deviating a little but its also in relation to this subject.

Maleth
12-10-14, 17:53
but could inside the bones small amounts be left? μυελος των οστων, bone myelic traces?
ok I know that DNA can not be exctrat after cremation,
but I wonder why they ask permission to do DNA tests?

I read somewhere that the teeth COULD be the most reliable source of DNA in this type of cremations. If not mistaken some types of dna tests have been done even after cremation. The subject is a little confusing, maybe some experts can give a little more light on the subject, and how reliable the whole process is.

Vedun
14-10-14, 11:21
As far I know the best preservation occures indeed in the teeth; bones are generally good isolators from the environment around them (water, micro organisms, fungi, insects). When cells break apart after death, the inner content comes out... majority of these substances later mold into the minerals in the bone; hydroxyapatite in the bone (which is produced by Osteocytes - bone cells).
As far I know from my lectures of Human Anatomy & Physiology, I would suggest for your DNA extraction from teeth and from the irregularly shaped bones or flat bones(for example: pelvis, sternum, skull, ribs, spine and blade), because there exist 2 types of red and yellow bone marrow. Red marrow has more cells than yellow marrow... When we are born the red bone marrow prevails, when we grow up (ends when we are about 18 years old) there is bellow 50% of red bone marrow in a mature man or woman, which is replaced by the yellow marrow, which is "yellow" because of the fat... How ever yellow bone marrow can in accidents (bone fractures, bleeding around the bone area) transforms itself into a red bone marrow; I believe we can study or detect fractures and bleeding (if the person for example died because of bleeding) under microscopic, chemical analysis of the marrow...

DNA will be destroyed also because of the temperatures around them... We know that proteins in human body start to coagulate already above 42 degrees Celsius, DNA starts to break apart around the 42,5 degrees Celsius(Phosphates) also; Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, Thymine around 316-360 degrees Celsius, Deoxyribose (sugar) around 90 degrees, Phosphates around 42,4 degrees..((that's why is the human temperature so important for normal life (biological) functions bellow 41 degrees, otherwise we die (start falling apart)...So, there is a better preservation of your DNA in more cooler climates than in tropical areas...
there exist 2 types of DNA in our cells; mtDNA or mDNA which is located in your mitochondria (which is also called "maternal DNA"; inherited from the mother) and the DNA from the Y chromosome, which is also called "paternal", because it is inherited from fathers to sons...


mDNA is better protected than Y DNA, because it is already surrounded & protected by the more "thicker" membrane or mitochondrial membrane, matrix & Lakunes (special structures in the mitochondria organelles)... Mitochondria in our cells is the indication/proof of archaic symbiosis & evolution of 2 different cells; one microorganism (cell) which penetrated into other cell & both have had benefits from each other...

PS: You gave me an idea to study the partially destroyed DNA because of temperatures...and perhaps make some qualitative tests out of it...

- Some articles about the isolation & analysis of the ancient DNA:

http://szd.si/user_files/vsebina/Zdravniski_Vestnik/2011/marec/171-81.pdf

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/cmulligan/webpage/methodsenzymology.pdf

Sennevini
14-10-14, 14:10
So Philippos remains were found cremated; are those of the woman cremated too?

Maleth
14-10-14, 20:57
So Philippos remains were found cremated; are those of the woman cremated too?

article says 'Along with the cremated remains of Philip II, the burial, commonly known as Tomb II, also contained the bones of a woman warrior, possibly the daughter of the Skythian King Athea' although not clearly put, I presume it was cremated too.

Maleth
14-10-14, 21:21
As far I know the best preservation occures indeed in the teeth; bones are generally good isolators from the environment around them (water, micro organisms, fungi, insects). When cells break apart after death, the inner content comes out... majority of these substances later mold into the minerals in the bone; hydroxyapatite in the bone (which is produced by Osteocytes - bone cells).
As far I know from my lectures of Human Anatomy & Physiology, I would suggest for your DNA extraction from teeth and from the irregularly shaped bones or flat bones(for example: pelvis, sternum, skull, ribs, spine and blade), because there exist 2 types of red and yellow bone marrow. Red marrow has more cells than yellow marrow... When we are born the red bone marrow prevails, when we grow up (ends when we are about 18 years old) there is bellow 50% of red bone marrow in a mature man or woman, which is replaced by the yellow marrow, which is "yellow" because of the fat... How ever yellow bone marrow can in accidents (bone fractures, bleeding around the bone area) transforms itself into a red bone marrow; I believe we can study or detect fractures and bleeding (if the person for example died because of bleeding) under microscopic, chemical analysis of the marrow...

DNA will be destroyed also because of the temperatures around them... We know that proteins in human body start to coagulate already above 42 degrees Celsius, DNA starts to break apart around the 42,5 degrees Celsius(Phosphates) also; Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, Thymine around 316-360 degrees Celsius, Deoxyribose (sugar) around 90 degrees, Phosphates around 42,4 degrees..((that's why is the human temperature so important for normal life (biological) functions bellow 41 degrees, otherwise we die (start falling apart)...So, there is a better preservation of your DNA in more cooler climates than in tropical areas...
there exist 2 types of DNA in our cells; mtDNA or mDNA which is located in your mitochondria (which is also called "maternal DNA"; inherited from the mother) and the DNA from the Y chromosome, which is also called "paternal", because it is inherited from fathers to sons...


mDNA is better protected than Y DNA, because it is already surrounded & protected by the more "thicker" membrane or mitochondrial membrane, matrix & Lakunes (special structures in the mitochondria organelles)... Mitochondria in our cells is the indication/proof of archaic symbiosis & evolution of 2 different cells; one microorganism (cell) which penetrated into other cell & both have had benefits from each other...

PS: You gave me an idea to study the partially destroyed DNA because of temperatures...and perhaps make some qualitative tests out of it...

- Some articles about the isolation & analysis of the ancient DNA:

http://szd.si/user_files/vsebina/Zdravniski_Vestnik/2011/marec/171-81.pdf

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/cmulligan/webpage/methodsenzymology.pdf

Thanks for that info and links Verdun. You surely are well informed. Your experiment sounds interesting and let us know how it goes.

I am still wondering though what method does Marie Lacan (example) use? she had results from some locations in the south of Europe, while others claim that from the alps downwards its too risky to have correct results with ancient dna (!). Who is right and who is wrong? I wont comment on DNA extracted from Egyptian mummies because those were much better preserved.

Dianatomia
15-10-14, 13:02
It would be great if they could test Philip's genome as well as his Scythian wife (Alexander's mother). This way we could get Alexander's two haplogroups and infer his autosomal composition.

Alexander's mother was not Scythian. The Scythian woman was another wife of Philip. He had several wives.
Alexander's mother, Olympias, was from a Molossian tribe from Epirus, which was a Greek tribal state.

I didn't know that Philip had a Scythian wive. In any case, would be interesting to find out about Philips haplogroup.

King Bardhyl
15-10-14, 14:40
Alexander's mother was not Scythian. The Scythian woman was another wife of Philip. He had several wives.
Alexander's mother, Olympias, was from a Molossian tribe from Epirus, which was a Greek tribal state.
I didn't know that Philip had a Scythian wive. In any case, would be interesting to find out about Philips haplogroup.

Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn (February 26, 1869 – November 7, 1957) was a British classical scholar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classics) and a writer. He wrote extensively on the Hellenistic world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_world), particularly on Alexander the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great).
"Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olympia) Illyrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), i.e., Albanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians), blood."

Who told you that Molossoi were Greek tribe? Wikipedia?

Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that “Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood!”*

Dianatomia
15-10-14, 20:39
Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn (February 26, 1869 – November 7, 1957) was a British classical scholar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classics) and a writer. He wrote extensively on the Hellenistic world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_world), particularly on Alexander the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great).
"Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olympia) Illyrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), i.e., Albanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians), blood."

Who told you that Molossoi were Greek tribe? Wikipedia?

Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that “Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood!”*

Wikipedia, Brittanica. Anything of the like will do. It is basically common knowledge that Ancient Epirus was inhabited by Greek speakers since the Neolthic. There are always counter opinions in history I suppose. Especially when nationalism gets mixed in.

Anyway, Sir William Woodthorpe has a nice hypothesis. But it is mostly fair speculation of his time. In the early 20th century historians had rather limited evidence regarding the Ancient Macedonians. There's been many excavations since, continuing to this day. Image is getting pretty clear about their Greekness.
You never know though. Maybe Alexander had some Illyrian blood too, maybe Thracian, maybe Hittite. Who is to say for sure?

Yetos
15-10-14, 21:00
Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn (February 26, 1869 – November 7, 1957) was a British classical scholar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classics) and a writer. He wrote extensively on the Hellenistic world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_world), particularly on Alexander the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great).
"Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olympia) Illyrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), i.e., Albanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians), blood."

Who told you that Molossoi were Greek tribe? Wikipedia?

Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that “Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood!”*


from probably to certain is far dinstance,

besides soon we know, surely in the next 5-10 years,

see you then Lazar... back to Marlok

mire sevini Δερβιτσανη


ΑΥΤΟΧΘΟΝΕΣ a Greek word autochthonos

ΑΥΤΟΧΘΟΝΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΑΡΧΕΓΟΝΟΣ ΕΛΛΑΣ

guess who?

King Bardhyl
15-10-14, 21:43
Wikipedia, Brittanica. Anything of the like will do. It is basically common knowledge that Ancient Epirus was inhabited by Greek speakers since the Neolthic. There are always counter opinions in history I suppose. Especially when nationalism gets mixed in.

Anyway, Sir William Woodthorpe has a nice hypothesis. But it is mostly fair speculation of his time. In the early 20th century historians had rather limited evidence regarding the Ancient Macedonians. There's been many excavations since, continuing to this day. Image is getting pretty clear about their Greekness.
You never know though. Maybe Alexander had some Illyrian blood too, maybe Thracian, maybe Hittite. Who is to say for sure?





Why you do not open a thread about Epir and let`s discuss there. But with one condition, to make a civilized discussion, no nationalism. Ok?

He also researched extensively on the history of the Greco-Bactrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian) and Indo-Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greeks), thereby documenting a nearly lost area of history. In his book The Greeks in Bactria and India, Tarn relied on classical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_antiquity) Western (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world) and Indian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_India) sources, as well as numismatics, to give a multi-faceted account of their dynastic rule and conquest.

I don`t think that Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn was a speculator.
About ancient macedonian i have expressed my opinion here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30426-New-Archaiological-discoverie-in-Makedonian-tomps-off-topic

Dianatomia
16-10-14, 01:59
Why you do not open a thread about Epir and let`s discuss there. But with one condition, to make a civilized discussion, no nationalism. Ok?

He also researched extensively on the history of the Greco-Bactrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian) and Indo-Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greeks), thereby documenting a nearly lost area of history. In his book The Greeks in Bactria and India, Tarn relied on classical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_antiquity) Western (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world) and Indian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_India) sources, as well as numismatics, to give a multi-faceted account of their dynastic rule and conquest.

I don`t think that Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn was a speculator.
About ancient macedonian i have expressed my opinion here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30426-New-Archaiological-discoverie-in-Makedonian-tomps-off-topic

There´s too many junk about these kind of topics all over the internet. I hate to start another one about Epirus.

As for Sir William Woodthorpe, ofcourse he speculates. Historians, good or bad, speculate to fill in the missing dots. I argue that he would have had a different opinion today regarding the Macedonians. As a good historian, he would follow the evidence.

motzart
16-10-14, 05:33
They definitely have Phillip's bones because extensive analysis has been done on the injuries he suffered, I don't think this would have been possible from a bunch of ashes.

Maleth
16-10-14, 08:33
They definitely have Phillip's bones because extensive analysis has been done on the injuries he suffered, I don't think this would have been possible from a bunch of ashes.

The article clearly states that they are cremated remains. Do not confuse current cremation practice where a dead body is turned to ashes (including bones). The burning of the dead body would leave lots of bones (harder to burn completely). They used to put the remains in caskets or urns and put offerings with them with some kind of burial ritual.

Modern cremation is turning the whole body into ash. During the process (since DNA is our interest) would have been highly damaged during the cremation process, even if bone pieces are still visible (and not turned to ash)