The look of the three ancestral components of europeans

Mars

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Are there theories, facial reconstructions etc. about the - at least hypothetical - look of the people belonging to the three ancestral components of europeans: ANE, hunter gatherers and neolitic farmers?
My two cents, the first two I mentioned were more robust, taller and maybe fairer than the latter. I think neolithic farmers looked mostly like modern time people from the Mediterranean basin. Am I wrong?
 
Are there theories, facial reconstructions etc. about the - at least hypothetical - look of the people belonging to the three ancestral components of europeans: ANE, hunter gatherers and neolitic farmers?
My two cents, the first two I mentioned were more robust, taller and maybe fairer than the latter. I think neolithic farmers looked mostly like modern time people from the Mediterranean basin. Am I wrong?

Yeah you are wrong, while the WHG (west European hunter gatherers) were blue eyed, they were dark skinned, brown skinned even, the EEF (early European farmers) were light skinned but dark eyed and haired. IDK what the ANE looked like.
 
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The academic papers have not predicted blonde hair for any of the ancient samples found so far (WHG,EEF,ANE).
 
The academic papers have not predicted blonde hair for any of the ancient samples found so far (WHG,EEF,ANE).
Oh, my mistake, I'll edit that.
 
Mars, you've got a great profile picture.
 
Are there theories, facial reconstructions etc. about the - at least hypothetical - look of the people belonging to the three ancestral components of europeans: ANE, hunter gatherers and neolitic farmers?
My two cents, the first two I mentioned were more robust, taller and maybe fairer than the latter. I think neolithic farmers looked mostly like modern time people from the Mediterranean basin. Am I wrong?

I think it's a bit of an assumption that northern Europeans are taller and more robust. Where's the evidence. Southern Europeans in America have the exact same body build as northern European Americans, it's also same with west Asians.
 
Mars, you've got a great profile picture.
Yeah, it's a statue of the roman god Mars with goddess Venus in love. First italian latin lover ever? :grin::grin:

About the body structure of modern europeans, it's fairly different from our ancestors' one, I guess, because the three components mixed a lot in ancient times, at least after the indoeuropean invasions but probably even before. Many south europeans are as robust and tall as the northerners, I agree, but a common physical type in the south has features like gracile structure and quite short stature. I think of many sardinians, for example, who often look like this, and are considered the most similar, genetically, to EEF:
sardinians+sardinian+p%u002525C3%u002525A8ople+%u0025252810%u00252529.jpg
sardinians+sardinian+p%u002525C3%u002525A8ople+%u0025252826%u00252529.jpg
sardinians+(18).jpg
(sardinians in folk costumes)
 
I think it's a bit of an assumption that northern Europeans are taller and more robust. Where's the evidence. Southern Europeans in America have the exact same body build as northern European Americans, it's also same with west Asians.

And where is your evidence that they are not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Average_height_around_the_world

irrelevant to this chart when one travels it is evident to see the difference. Peoples height averages are even evident within the same countries say Italians of the North and Italians from the South, different regions of France example. But not only Mediterranean people seem to be of a smaller stature, you also get this smaller stature in the Alps regions. Dutch are evidentally taller then average. When you worked with a mixed bag of tourists you can easily tell the differences. Of course you get exceptions, but exceptions are not the rule.

I believe that height depends on nutrition especially protein. Northern's consume much more protein (probably through meats and dairy products) compared to southerners that even till this day seem to consume less. The ancients (especially farmers) are known to have been even of a smaller stature then today. Many of the doors in ancient buildings and ruins are very small compared to what we have today even in some dwellings of up to 200/300 years ago.
 
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And where is your evidence that they are not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Average_height_around_the_world

irrelevant to this chart when one travels it is evident to see the difference. Peoples height averages are even evident within the same countries say Italians of the North and Italians from the South, different regions of France example. But not only Mediterranean people seem to be of a smaller stature, you also get this smaller stature in the Alps regions. Dutch are evidentally taller then average. When you worked with a mixed bag of tourists you can easily tell the differences. Of course you get exceptions, but exceptions are not the rule.
Yeah, I suppose that's true. According to Coon's "The races of Europe" (if it's an irrelevant study these days please let me know) Ashkenazi Jews have a higher frequency of fair eyes and hair than south Italians, but a lower frequency of said features than north Italians. I asked on a couple of forums how I look like, and classifications ranged from northern Europe to the eastern Mediterranean, but according to most studies Ashkenazis are genetically speaking east Mediterranean/north near eastern, so I suppose it doesn't matter, just look at some Kurds.
 
Yeah, I suppose that's true. According to Coon's "The races of Europe" (if it's an irrelevant study these days please let me know) Ashkenazi Jews have a higher frequency of fair eyes and hair than south Italians, but a lower frequency of said features than north Italians. I asked on a couple of forums how I look like, and classifications ranged from northern Europe to the eastern Mediterranean, but according to most studies Ashkenazis are genetically speaking east Mediterranean/north near eastern, so I suppose it doesn't matter, just look at some Kurds.

Hmm. I know there has been alot discussed of how Ashkenazi Jews came to be, but the info was somewhat overwhelming to follow. My impression at the moment is that some were originals of the middle east that migrated to these parts of the world and eventually intermarried (with conversions) to the local country of migration. I believe there have also been some kind of indegeous people who converted to Judaism at some point too, but I really have no clue of percentages.

Intermixing of course would always bring different features in the new group due to gene inheratance. For example I believe that Sephardic Jews would then have a particular different look from Ashkenazi's, which might even differ from the Jews of the middle east that remained in the region. If not mistaken I also believe that there is some kind of internal racism between the two groups, but Im not too sure about this. They even adopted a somewhat different character which is not always compatible especially with the thousands that migrated back to Israel and now living in the same country. I stand to be corrected.
 
Hmm. I know there has been alot discussed of how Ashkenazi Jews came to be, but the info was somewhat overwhelming to follow. My impression at the moment is that some were originals of the middle east that migrated to these parts of the world and eventually intermarried (with conversions) to the local country of migration. I believe there have also been some kind of indegeous people who converted to Judaism at some point too, but I really have no clue of percentages.

Intermixing of course would always bring different features in the new group due to gene inheratance. For example I believe that Sephardic Jews would then have a particular different look from Ashkenazi's, which might even differ from the Jews of the middle east that remained in the region. If not mistaken I also believe that there is some kind of internal racism between the two groups, but Im not too sure about this. They even adopted a somewhat different character which is not always compatible especially with the thousands that migrated back to Israel and now living in the same country. I stand to be corrected.

Yeah I believe you got it quite right, I also agree that the question of how AJs came to be is still debated with no definitive answer from what I understood. As an AJ, this level of uncertainty concerning the origin of the ethnicity I belong to tends to drive me mad sometimes, I just hope the picture will get clearer with better technology and new discoveries so that this question of origin of the AJs will become clearer.
 
Yeah I believe you got it quite right, I also agree that the question of how AJs came to be is still debated with no definitive answer from what I understood. As an AJ, this level of uncertainty concerning the origin of the ethnicity I belong to tends to drive me mad sometimes, I just hope the picture will get clearer with better technology and new discoveries so that this question of origin of the AJs will become clearer.
What about mizrahim and sephardim? Do they have any connection to the EEF? I mean, is their genetic background (at least partially) common to that of the farmers who came from the Middle East 8,000 years ago, and later mixed with european hunter-gatherers? That's something I've never grasped...:unsure:
 
What about mizrahim and sephardim? Do they have any connection to the EEF? I mean, is their genetic background (at least partially) common to that of the farmers who came from the Middle East 8,000 years ago, and later mixed with european hunter-gatherers? That's something I've never grasped...:unsure:

The Sephardis I think so. The term Mizrahi is quite general, it can stretch from Syrian Jews who probably have a connection to the EEF to Yemenite Jews who might not.
 
What about mizrahim and sephardim? Do they have any connection to the EEF? I mean, is their genetic background (at least partially) common to that of the farmers who came from the Middle East 8,000 years ago, and later mixed with european hunter-gatherers? That's something I've never grasped...:unsure:

I believe in a recent study it is found that major Jewish groups share a common Middle eastern origin, prior to the existence of the Jewish faith (as a religion) Some have intermingled with people from the country they have emigrated to since ancient times for different reasons. Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews have around 30% European ancestry (and I presume some Berber admixture but not sure) through intermarriages according to Dr. Harry Ostrer. If he is correct then its only the 'Religion' which binds. So its quite possible that Present Jews (as a religion) have same roots to non Jews from the times prior to when the Jewish faith was created
 
The Sephardis I think so. The term Mizrahi is quite general, it can stretch from Syrian Jews who probably have a connection to the EEF to Yemenite Jews who might not.

Joe did you get around to refine your results?
 
What do you mean? I didn't understand your question.

Your yDNA result is E-M35.1. which is quite a general one. Did you have a deeper test done to determine your subclade. I know you were going to do it at some point. With ftdna I think?
 
I believe in a recent study it is found that major Jewish groups share a common Middle eastern origin, prior to the existence of the Jewish faith (as a religion) Some have intermingled with people from the country they have emigrated to since ancient times for different reasons. Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews have around 30% European ancestry (and I presume some Berber admixture but not sure) through intermarriages according to Dr. Harry Ostrer. If he is correct then its only the 'Religion' which binds. So its quite possible that Present Jews (as a religion) have same roots to non Jews from the times prior to when the Jewish faith was created
Yeah, I heard of that study too. I heard of 2 more studies concerning the subject, one by Gil Atzmon who claimed Ashkenazi Jews originated in the middle east but are roughly 35-55% of European descent. Then there's the most recent study which claims that Ashkenazi Jews descend from just 300 people from 600 to 800 years ago, and are roughly of half European and half middle eastern origin (50 50). The studies just keep contradicting themselves, I don't know which study to believe anymore to be frank.
 
Your yDNA result is E-M35.1. which is quite a general one. Did you have a deeper test done to determine your subclade. I know you were going to do it at some point. With ftdna I think?
Yeah, I'm planning on testing with FTDNA and take the 37 or 67 markers test to see to which more specific subclade I belong to, as soon as I'll get the money, all in due time. ;)
 
Yeah, I'm planning on testing with FTDNA and take the 37 or 67 markers test to see to which more specific subclade I belong to, as soon as I'll get the money, all in due time. ;)

I understand. I did 67 markers after the deep clade test. But I did not get my joy by doing the 67 markers. I am still located in the same region in the snp map and still with the same close matches as I had on 12 markers. Geno project told me know I have to do the mouth swab all over again if I want to have updated results
 

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