PDA

View Full Version : Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula



Maciamo
16-10-14, 08:49
I would like to announce that I have just published a Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/spain_portugal_dna.shtml). It may still need a few corrections, but otherwise I think it is reasonably comprehensive.

Your feedback is welcome.

Maleth
16-10-14, 09:49
Well done Maciamo. I always find your articles very easy to follow and well explained. I would like to mention that in your map of Bell Beakers and Megalithic cultures, Malta (the spot under Sicily) had a thriving Megalithic culture and not demonstrated as such. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalithic_Temples_of_Malta.

Thank you for all the good work

Silesian
16-10-14, 17:05
If you can find a common snp linking R1b in Phoenicia/Lebanon with it's largest colony, Carthage than you might have a common connection.
Otherwise trying to connect Druze and Alawites R1b L23[51](the highest R1b carriers in the region) with Phoenician expansion colonies might be in vain.
On the other hand M269(L23) and L23(51) are both found in Balkans and among different groups like Zoroastrians in Tehran and Bashkirs.
Albanian M269(L23) L51(23)> R1b 9219+ , and Greeks share L23(51) and are quite abundant in Greek colonies like Smirna.
The same with the Assyrian R1b L23(51) which some were trying to link to Levant groups, showing they were autochthonous.
To date, Assyrian, Druze, Alawite, samples have not yielded any R1b L23[51]CTS-9219+ found in Russia,Eastern Europe, Balkan regions with also M269[L23] and M73.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056775 Table S6

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

http://phoenicia.org/colonies.html (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69)

Taranis
16-10-14, 17:16
I would like to announce that I have just published a Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/spain_portugal_dna.shtml). It may still need a few corrections, but otherwise I think it is reasonably comprehensive.

Your feedback is welcome.

That was a great read, Maciamo, good work. :)

Drac II
16-10-14, 17:35
I would like to announce that I have just published a Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/spain_portugal_dna.shtml). It may still need a few corrections, but otherwise I think it is reasonably comprehensive.

Your feedback is welcome.

"In the 14th century, approximately 8% of the Spanish population was Jewish."

Source? I have seen legitimate historical sources (not Wikipedia) that say that Jews in Iberia were quite less than that. In fact, more like closer to 1%.

"The Inquisition killed or expelled a lot of Muslims, but, as was the case with the Jews, many converted to Christianity and remained in Spain and Portugal. As many as 275,000 of these Moriscos, as the converts were known, were expelled from Castille and Valencia in the early 17th century, but many more lingered in other regions, notably Aragon, Andalusia, Extremadura and Portugal. At one point, Moriscos accounted for 20% of the population of Aragon. It is probably not a coincidence that haplogroups E1b1b, J and T make up 20% of modern Aragonese male lineages, despite the fact that the region was never under Phoenician or Greek influence."

The problem with this theory is the well-known historical fact that most "Moriscos" were just descendants of native Iberians who had converted to Islam (known as "Muladies") and later on reconverted to Christianity, not foreign Arabs or Berbers. Also, one would have to take a closer look at what subclades of E1b1b and J are more common in Aragon to venture to guess any possible connection to the subject.

Fire Haired14
16-10-14, 23:02
I think you should be more specific when describing the genetic relationship between La Brana-1 and 2 and modern Europeans. It's vague to just say they were most related to Bats and Scandinavians(just as related or more so to Polish, Belorussian, and Russians), it'll probably be confusng to some people. I would suggest going into more detail. Basque actually have about as much or possibly more WHG than NW Europeans. The extra ANE and less ENF in NW Euros makes them overall more related

ElHorsto
17-10-14, 13:55
It's probably too speculative yet, but regarding Iberia, there is in K15 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19c_bZjUV_RouKyGyLHmMDw57WwAVabXFJOaso_gcuRE/edit?pli=1#gid=1365780050) the 'Atlantic' component, which peaks in French-Basque and second highest in Spaniards. It is also very high in the presumably celtic Iron Age sample.
By analyzing K15 it looks like 'Atlantic' is a combination of at least two major ancestries, one is more related to North-Europeans (Loschbour, La Brana, NW-Europe possess 'Atlantic') and the other is related to South-Europeans ('Atlantic' is modal in Iberians/Basques, but also strong in EEF-Stuttgart (25%), Sicilians (15%) and even Cypriots and sephardic Jews (7%)). Since Sicilians, Cypriots and Jews are the least WHG-North-European Hunter-Gatherer related peoples of today in Europe, it is almost certain that 'Atlantic' is partially composed of South-european ancestry, which could be either a mesolthic population from Italy and/or Balkans, which made it together with the farmers to Iberia. Another possibility is that these were Near-eastern/Anatolian hunter-gatherers who mixed with european hunter-gatherers across the mesolithic mediterranean.
MtDNA H1+H3 coincides well with 'Atlantic' autosomal component.

'North-Sea' and 'East-Euro' seem more strange and artificial. North-Sea seems to be closer related to 'East-Euro' than to neighbouring 'Baltic', which is strange but interesting. FST distances would be nice to have.
West-Asian looks less ANE related in K15, which might be just due to an overfitting effect - my guess. But this is off-topic.

John Doe
17-10-14, 14:04
It's probably too speculative yet, but regarding Iberia, there is in K15 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19c_bZjUV_RouKyGyLHmMDw57WwAVabXFJOaso_gcuRE/edit?pli=1#gid=1365780050) the 'Atlantic' component, which peaks in French-Basque and second highest in Spaniards. It is also very high in the presumably celtic Iron Age sample.
By analyzing K15 it looks like 'Atlantic' is a combination of at least two major ancestries, one is more related to North-Europeans (Loschbour, La Brana, NW-Europe possess 'Atlantic') and the other is related to South-Europeans ('Atlantic' is modal in Iberians/Basques, but also strong in EEF-Stuttgart (25%), Sicilians (15%) and even Cypriots and sephardic Jews (7%)). Since Sicilians, Cypriots and Jews are the least WHG-North-European Hunter-Gatherer related peoples of today in Europe, it is almost certain that 'Atlantic' is partially composed of South-european ancestry, which could be either a mesolthic population from Italy and/or Balkans, which made it together with the farmers to Iberia. Another possibility is that these were Near-eastern/Anatolian hunter-gatherers who mixed with european hunter-gatherers across the mesolithic mediterranean.
MtDNA H1+H3 coincides well with 'Atlantic' autosomal component.

'North-Sea' and 'East-Euro' seem more strange and artificial. North-Sea seems to be closer related to 'East-Euro' than neighbouring 'Baltic', which is strange but interesting. FST distances would be nice to have.
West-Asian looks less ANE related in K15, which might be just due to an overfitting effect - my guess. But this is off-topic.

According to the spreadsheet Ashkenazi Jews are supposed to get 10% Atlantic, I'm a full Ashkenazi but I get 20%, here are my results:

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
East_Med
26.20


2
Atlantic
19.52


3
West_Asian
16.32


4
West_Med
14.60


5
North_Sea
8.44


6
Red_Sea
6.79


7
Baltic
4.00


8
Eastern_Euro
1.99


9
Northeast_African
1.24




Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.435981
2 West_Sicilian @ 7.124914
3 East_Sicilian @ 7.686503
4 South_Italian @ 8.222302
5 Central_Greek @ 8.253244
6 Ashkenazi @ 10.587203
7 Sephardic_Jewish @ 11.051206
8 Italian_Jewish @ 11.907031
9 Tuscan @ 11.965949
10 Greek @ 12.039761
11 Algerian_Jewish @ 13.711204
12 Greek_Thessaly @ 14.624115
13 Tunisian_Jewish @ 15.955420
14 North_Italian @ 19.058891
15 Bulgarian @ 19.539663
16 Libyan_Jewish @ 19.904432
17 Cyprian @ 20.181499
18 Turkish @ 20.992123
19 Romanian @ 21.754431
20 Lebanese_Muslim @ 22.375401

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Kurdish_Jewish +50% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.772971


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Sephardic_Jewish +25% Spanish_Aragon +25% Turkish @ 3.586322


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Italian_Abruzzo + Tunisian_Jewish @ 1.923865
2 Central_Greek + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.259549
3 French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Lebanese_Muslim + Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.276515
4 East_Sicilian + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.335139
5 Assyrian + French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.400810
6 Assyrian + French_Basque + Lebanese_Muslim + Tuscan @ 2.500655
7 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Palestinian + Tuscan @ 2.508104
8 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + South_Italian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.597329
9 East_Sicilian + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.608863
10 French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Lebanese_Christian + Turkish @ 2.628187
11 Armenian + French_Basque + Palestinian + Tuscan @ 2.628273
12 Ashkenazi + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.653903
13 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Muslim + Tuscan @ 2.660685
14 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Muslim + West_Sicilian @ 2.665869
15 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.667009
16 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.668889
17 French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Samaritan + Turkish @ 2.674453
18 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish + West_Sicilian @ 2.678019
19 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Jordanian + Tuscan @ 2.737997
20 Central_Greek + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.774329


Have no idea what that means.

P.S according to Iosif (forgot his surname) Ashkenazi Jews, Sicilians and Maltese have the least WHG in Europe, and thus plot in the gap between Europe and the near east, Cypriots get a negative value of said component, and plot on the tip of the near east.

ElHorsto
17-10-14, 14:22
According to the spreadsheet Ashkenazi Jews are supposed to get 10% Atlantic, I'm a full Ashkenazi but I get 20%, here are my results:

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
East_Med
26.20


2
Atlantic
19.52


3
West_Asian
16.32


4
West_Med
14.60


5
North_Sea
8.44


6
Red_Sea
6.79


7
Baltic
4.00


8
Eastern_Euro
1.99


9
Northeast_African
1.24




Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.435981
2 West_Sicilian @ 7.124914
3 East_Sicilian @ 7.686503
4 South_Italian @ 8.222302
5 Central_Greek @ 8.253244
6 Ashkenazi @ 10.587203
7 Sephardic_Jewish @ 11.051206
8 Italian_Jewish @ 11.907031
9 Tuscan @ 11.965949
10 Greek @ 12.039761
11 Algerian_Jewish @ 13.711204
12 Greek_Thessaly @ 14.624115
13 Tunisian_Jewish @ 15.955420
14 North_Italian @ 19.058891
15 Bulgarian @ 19.539663
16 Libyan_Jewish @ 19.904432
17 Cyprian @ 20.181499
18 Turkish @ 20.992123
19 Romanian @ 21.754431
20 Lebanese_Muslim @ 22.375401

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Kurdish_Jewish +50% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.772971


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Sephardic_Jewish +25% Spanish_Aragon +25% Turkish @ 3.586322


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Italian_Abruzzo + Tunisian_Jewish @ 1.923865
2 Central_Greek + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.259549
3 French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Lebanese_Muslim + Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.276515
4 East_Sicilian + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.335139
5 Assyrian + French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.400810
6 Assyrian + French_Basque + Lebanese_Muslim + Tuscan @ 2.500655
7 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Palestinian + Tuscan @ 2.508104
8 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + South_Italian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.597329
9 East_Sicilian + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.608863
10 French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Lebanese_Christian + Turkish @ 2.628187
11 Armenian + French_Basque + Palestinian + Tuscan @ 2.628273
12 Ashkenazi + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.653903
13 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Muslim + Tuscan @ 2.660685
14 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Muslim + West_Sicilian @ 2.665869
15 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.667009
16 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.668889
17 French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Samaritan + Turkish @ 2.674453
18 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish + West_Sicilian @ 2.678019
19 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Jordanian + Tuscan @ 2.737997
20 Central_Greek + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.774329


Have no idea what that means.

P.S according to Iosif (forgot his surname) Ashkenazi Jews, Sicilians and Maltese have the least WHG in Europe, and thus plot in the gap between Europe and the near east, Cypriots get a negative value of said component, and plot on the tip of the near east.

Compared to sephardim, ashkenazi jews are known to have some north-euro admixture, which is visible in elevated 'North-Sea', 'Baltic' and 'Eastern-Euro'. All populations being high in any of these three compopnents also have significant 'Atlantic', because they share partial common north-euro-WHG-like ancestry. Your 'Atlantic' indeed looks strangely high at first glance. I don't know what it means. Try to do some meditation using the K15 table, perhaps you'll find an explanation which I don't see yet.

John Doe
17-10-14, 14:51
Compared to sephardim, ashkenazi jews are known to have some north-euro admixture, which is visible in elevated 'North-Sea', 'Baltic' and 'Eastern-Euro'. All populations being high in any of these three compopnents also have significant 'Atlantic', because they share partial common north-euro-WHG-like ancestry. Your 'Atlantic' indeed looks strangely high at first glance. I don't know what it means. Try to do some meditation using the K15 table, perhaps you'll find an explanation which I don't see yet.
After looking at the spreadsheet again, I think I came up with an answer:

Average Ashkenazi- north sea: 10%
Me- north sea: 8%

Average Ashkenazi- Atlantic: 10%
Me-Atlantic: 20%

Average Ashkenazi- Baltic: 7%
Me- Baltic: 4%

Average Ashkenazi- east Euro: 5%
Me- east Euro- 2%

Average Ashkenazi- west Mediterranean: 15%
Me- west Mediterranean: 15%

Average Ashkenazi- west Asian: 13%
Me- west Asian: 16%

Average Ashkenazi- east Mediterranean: 27%
Me- east Mediterranean: 26%

Average Ashkenazi- red sea: 8%
Me- red sea: 7%

Average Ashkenazi- south Asian: 1%
Me- south Asian: below 1%

Average Ashkenazi- southeast Asian: below 1%
Me-southeast Asian: below 1%

Average Ashkenazi- Siberian: below 1%
Me-Siberian: below 1%

Average Ashkenazi- Amerindian: below 1%
Me-Amerindian: below 1%

Average Ashkenazi- Oceanian: below 1%
Me-Oceanian: below 1%


Average Ashkenazi- northeast African: 2%
Me-northeast African: 1%

Average Ashkenazi-Sub Saharan: below 1%
Me-Sub Saharan: below 1%

ElHorsto
17-10-14, 15:09
You look most like a mixed Sephardim+Ashkenazi with some additional Basque ancestry, but not exactly. Your west-Mediterranean should be higher then. You have a quite unique admixture profile.


After looking at the spreadsheet again, I think I came up with an answer:

Average Ashkenazi- north sea: 10%
Me- north sea: 8%

Average Ashkenazi- Atlantic: 10%
Me-Atlantic: 20%

Average Ashkenazi- Baltic: 7%
Me- Baltic: 4%

Average Ashkenazi- east Euro: 5%
Me- east Euro- 2%

Average Ashkenazi- west Mediterranean: 15%
Me- west Mediterranean: 15%
...

John Doe
17-10-14, 15:41
You look most like a mixed Sephardim+Ashkenazi with some additional Basque ancestry, but not exactly. Your west-Mediterranean should be higher then. You have a quite unique admixture profile.
For all I know, I'm a full Ashkenazi, with roots in modern day Germany, Poland and the Ukraine. But my biological father was fairer than my mother.

Angela
17-10-14, 16:03
In terms of the general introduction, I don’t think the weight of the evidence supports the proposition that there is a lot of substructure autosomally in the modern populations of the Iberian peninsula, or at least not in Spain, perhaps in part, indeed, to the resettlement policies following the Reconquista.
See Ralph and Coop.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001555
Patterns for the Iberian peninsula are similar, with both Spain and Portugal showing very few common ancestors with other populations over the last 2,500 years. However, the rate of IBD sharing within the peninsula is much higher than within Italy—during the last 1,500 years the Iberian peninsula shares fewer than two genetic common ancestors with other populations, compared to roughly 30 per pair within the peninsula; Italians share on average only about eight with each other during this period.
Also: n contrast to Italy, the rate of sharing of IBD within the Iberian peninsula is similar to that within other populations in Europe. There is furthermore much less evidence of substructure within our Iberian samples than within the Italians, as shown in Figure S2 (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001555#pbio.1 001555.s002). This suggests that the reduced rate of shared ancestry is due to geographic isolation (by distance and/or the Pyrenees) rather than long-term stable substructure within the peninsula.

As to the impact of the “Germanic” invasions, there is also this:

On the other hand, we find that France and the Italian and Iberian peninsulas have the lowest rates of genetic common ancestry in the last 1,500 years (other than Turkey and Cyprus), and are the regions of continental Europe thought to have been least affected by the Slavic and Hunnic migrations. These regions were, however, moved into by Germanic tribes (e.g., the Goths, Ostrogoths, and Vandals), which suggests that perhaps the Germanic migrations/invasions of these regions entailed a smaller degree of population replacement than the Slavic and/or Hunnic, or perhaps that the Germanic groups were less genealogically cohesive. This is consistent with the argument that the Slavs moved into relatively depopulated areas, while Gothic “migrations” may have been takeovers by small groups of extant populations [54] (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001555#pbio.1 001555-Halsall1),[55] (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001555#pbio.1 001555-Kobyliski1).

Uniparental markers are a different story, but they are so subject, imo, to founder effect and drift that while they give clues, especially the yDna, as to ancient migration routes and genetic clusters that may once have existed, they are not as informative about current genetic differences among populations.


I’m also not sure it’s at all settled scientifically how much and what specific subclades of E-M81 came into Iberia at which time. Just generally, there has been very little work done on determining substructure within E-M81, unlike what has been done for R1b, for example.

Perhaps some came in the Mesolithic, although I’m sure you’re aware that E-M81 has been assigned a "young" TMRCA. That doesn't mean, of course, that some upstream clade of "E" was not present in the Iberian peninsula at that time.

That some of it came during the Neolithic seems perhaps more likely.

“Arredi et al. (2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-Z827#CITEREFArredi_et_al.2004)) believe the pattern of distribution and variance to be consistent with the hypothesis of a post Paleolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic) "demic diffusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demic_diffusion)" from the East. The ancestral lineage of E-M81 in their hypothesis could have been linked with the spread of Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) food-producing technologies from the Fertile Crescent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertile_Crescent) via the Nile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile), although pastoralism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastoralism) rather than agriculture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture). E-M81 and possibly proto-Afroasiatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Afroasiatic) language may have been carried either all the way from Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia), or they may represent a "local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition". According to Shomarka Keita, a Near Eastern origin of proto-Afroasiatic speakers carrying E-M81, or its ancestral lineage, is inconsistent with the linguistic evidence, which seems to indicate an African origin of Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_Urheimat). Keita argues that there is no autochthonous presence of E-M81 in the Near East, indicating that M81 most likely emerged from its parent clade M35 either in the Maghreb, or possibly as far southeast as the Horn of Africa.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-Z827#cite_note-15)

However, once again, without some more resolution and some ancient dna against which to check hypotheses, I’m not sure.

I don’t know what basis there is for saying that none of it came with the Moors. I have, at various times, attempted to find current, or even twenthieth century comprehensive histories of Spain and Portugal covering this period, and dealing with the Moorish invasions, that compile in one place whatever data is available, and I can't find it either in English or Spanish.

On the genetic side, the kinds of analyses that have been done for R1b just haven’t been done, to my knowledge, for E-M81 in Spain. It would require more resolution of this clade at the minimum.

This paper on mtDna U6 might be a good model for what could be done, but hasn't been done:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/14/109
The history of the North African mitochondrial DNA haplogroup U6 gene flow into the African, Eurasian and American continents, Bernard Secher et al.

I’ve been wanting to take a look at this August 2014 paper on ydna in Iberia, but I don’t have institutional access. Perhaps you'll be more successful. Maybe it addresses some of these issues in a persuasive way.
Luis Alvarez et al: Y chromosomal analysis in a Northwest Iberian population: Unraveleing the impact of North African lineages.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22602/abstract;jsessionid=53E24D37D41799AEBB8007962860DD E9.f01t03?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+ be+disrupted+on+the+18th+October+from+10%3A00+BST+ %2805%3A00+EDT%29+for+essential+maintenance+for+ap proximately+two+hours+as+we+make+upgrades+to+impro ve+our+services+to+you&userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

joeyc
17-10-14, 17:19
There is almost zero real Celto Germanic ancestry in Iberia. 90% of their North Euro like DNA comes from La Brana swarthoids. Unfortunately we don't know much about Unetice and Bell Beaker culture, but at least the latter should have had a strong part in the formation of modern Iberian genepool. Just a personal opinion.

Sile
17-10-14, 19:02
"In the 14th century, approximately 8% of the Spanish population was Jewish."

Source? I have seen legitimate historical sources (not Wikipedia) that say that Jews in Iberia were quite less than that. In fact, more like closer to 1%.

"The Inquisition killed or expelled a lot of Muslims, but, as was the case with the Jews, many converted to Christianity and remained in Spain and Portugal. As many as 275,000 of these Moriscos, as the converts were known, were expelled from Castille and Valencia in the early 17th century, but many more lingered in other regions, notably Aragon, Andalusia, Extremadura and Portugal. At one point, Moriscos accounted for 20% of the population of Aragon. It is probably not a coincidence that haplogroups E1b1b, J and T make up 20% of modern Aragonese male lineages, despite the fact that the region was never under Phoenician or Greek influence."

The problem with this theory is the well-known historical fact that most "Moriscos" were just descendants of native Iberians who had converted to Islam (known as "Muladies") and later on reconverted to Christianity, not foreign Arabs or Berbers. Also, one would have to take a closer look at what subclades of E1b1b and J are more common in Aragon to venture to guess any possible connection to the subject.

correct me if I am wrong:

- Aragon was never on the coast , but only became coastal when catalonia claim the title of kingdom of Aragon...........IIRC ~1100AD

- Aragon was never inhabited by Moors

- Moors are not arabs, but mostly berber people who are 90% E in marker except a small group who are R1a ( 4.9%) in altai mountains

- According to Adams (2008 paper) ibiza was formed by phoenician settlers, Ibiza has 20% g2a, 17% T1, 15% J2 and the rest ..............other phoenician settlement show mostly J2 markers

- Catalonia had phoenician and greek settlement
http://www20.gencat.cat/portal/site/culturacatalana/menuitem.be2bc4cc4c5aec88f94a9710b0c0e1a0/?vgnextoid=841c5c43da896210VgnVCM1000000b0c1e0aRCR D&vgnextchannel=841c5c43da896210VgnVCM1000000b0c1e0a RCRD&vgnextfmt=detall2&contentid=278c3c084ded7210VgnVCM1000008d0c1e0aRCRD


(http://www20.gencat.cat/portal/site/culturacatalana/menuitem.be2bc4cc4c5aec88f94a9710b0c0e1a0/?vgnextoid=841c5c43da896210VgnVCM1000000b0c1e0aRCR D&vgnextchannel=841c5c43da896210VgnVCM1000000b0c1e0a RCRD&vgnextfmt=detall2&contentid=278c3c084ded7210VgnVCM1000008d0c1e0aRCRD )

Drac II
18-10-14, 16:17
correct me if I am wrong:

- Aragon was never on the coast , but only became coastal when catalonia claim the title of kingdom of Aragon...........IIRC ~1100AD

Yes.


- Aragon was never inhabited by Moors

Since Islamic "Moors" even made it to southern France and Switzerland-Italy border regions ("Alpine passes") obviously they had to pass through lands that were part of Aragon first. But this was just a military presence, there was no substantial immigration and settlement to speak of.


- Moors are not arabs, but mostly berber people who are 90% E in marker except a small group who are R1a ( 4.9%) in altai mountains`

Yes. The Arabs were basically the foreign ruling elites, the bulk of the "Moors" were just the same Berber peoples from ancient times (known to Greeks and Romans since long before Islam existed), only now converted to Islam instead of being pagan or early Christian (as they were during Graeco-Roman times before the Islamic intervention in North Africa.)


- According to Adams (2008 paper) ibiza was formed by phoenician settlers, Ibiza has 20% g2a, 17% T1, 15% J2 and the rest ..............other phoenician settlement show mostly J2 markers

Adams et al. 2008 is full of baloney when it comes to "interpretations" of what their results for haplogroup frequencies might mean, historically speaking. This paper has already been criticized for it since its publication. Ibiza was already inhabited long before the Phoenician traders arrived to that island.


- Catalonia had phoenician and greek settlement
http://www20.gencat.cat/portal/site/culturacatalana/menuitem.be2bc4cc4c5aec88f94a9710b0c0e1a0/?vgnextoid=841c5c43da896210VgnVCM1000000b0c1e0aRCR D&vgnextchannel=841c5c43da896210VgnVCM1000000b0c1e0a RCRD&vgnextfmt=detall2&contentid=278c3c084ded7210VgnVCM1000008d0c1e0aRCRD

The article only says that there was trade between Catalonia and the Phoenician commercial enclaves in places like "Gades" (Cadiz).

Maciamo
18-10-14, 16:44
In terms of the general introduction, I don’t think the weight of the evidence supports the proposition that there is a lot of substructure autosomally in the modern populations of the Iberian peninsula, or at least not in Spain, perhaps in part, indeed, to the resettlement policies following the Reconquista.

Yes, it's true that Spaniards are fairly close with one another autosomally compared with French or Italian people, but probably not as homogeneous as the English or the Scandinavians.


Perhaps some came in the Mesolithic, although I’m sure you’re aware that E-M81 has been assigned a "young" TMRCA. That doesn't mean, of course, that some upstream clade of "E" was not present in the Iberian peninsula at that time.

That some of it came during the Neolithic seems perhaps more likely.

I don’t know what basis there is for saying that none of it came with the Moors. I have, at various times, attempted to find current, or even twenthieth century comprehensive histories of Spain and Portugal covering this period, and dealing with the Moorish invasions, that compile in one place whatever data is available, and I can't find it either in English or Spanish.

Considering the proximity of the Maghreb and Iberia, various waves of E-M81 could have come during the Mesolithic and Neolithic, but of course also during the Moorish period.

Maciamo
18-10-14, 16:51
"In the 14th century, approximately 8% of the Spanish population was Jewish."

Source? I have seen legitimate historical sources (not Wikipedia) that say that Jews in Iberia were quite less than that. In fact, more like closer to 1%.

According to the History of the Jews in Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Spain), "there were about 120 Jewish communities in Christian Spain around 1300, with somewhere around half a million or more Jews". This site gives an estimated population of 9 million for Iberia around 1340. Keeping historical population proportions between Spain and Portugal (roughly 3.5 to 1), that's about 7 million for Spain alone. In other words the Jewish population was at least 7% at that time.

Maciamo
18-10-14, 19:47
I have added a section about autosomal DNA (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/spain_portugal_dna.shtml#autosomal) and its relation with patterns observed with Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups. This where I explain, among others, the genetic specificities of the Basques and the Catalans.

joeyc
19-10-14, 09:48
On the other hand, we find that France and the Italian and Iberian peninsulas have the lowest rates of genetic common ancestry in the last 1,500 years (other than Turkey and Cyprus), and are the regions of continental Europe thought to have been least affected by the Slavic and Hunnic migrations. These regions were, however, moved into by Germanic tribes (e.g., the Goths, Ostrogoths, and Vandals), which suggests that perhaps the Germanic migrations/invasions of these regions entailed a smaller degree of population replacement than the Slavic and/or Hunnic, or perhaps that the Germanic groups were less genealogically cohesive. This is consistent with the argument that the Slavs moved into relatively depopulated areas, while Gothic “migrations” may have been takeovers by small groups of extant populations [54] (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001555#pbio.1 001555-Halsall1),[55] (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001555#pbio.1 001555-Kobyliski1).

I've read this crappy study. It's clear to me that they have oversampled both Southern Italians and Sardinians.

If they had divided Italy in regions (North, Center, South, Islands), the signals of Germanic and Slavic ancestry would have become much clearer. Especially for far North Eastern Italians.

Fire Haired14
19-10-14, 09:57
I have added a section about autosomal DNA (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/spain_portugal_dna.shtml#autosomal) and its relation with patterns observed with Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups. This where I explain, among others, the genetic specificities of the Basques and the Catalans.

What about Laz? Why do you only look at a select few admixtures?

Maciamo
19-10-14, 11:35
What about Laz? Why do you only look at a select few admixtures?

What do the Laz have to do with Iberia ?

Maciamo
19-10-14, 11:37
I have just made some considerable amendments to the Introduction (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/spain_portugal_dna.shtml#introduction)and the Neolithic section of the article.

Fire Haired14
19-10-14, 19:52
What do the Laz have to do with Iberia ?

It has to do with all Europeans, west Asians, and even Amerindians, Siberians, east Asians, etc., etc. A lot can be learned about Iberians outside of Dodecade.

oreo_cookie
19-10-14, 20:29
I have always suspected that genetic affinity to North Africa is mostly prehistoric, since there are also Iberian affinities in North Africa. Though that might also have to do with the Reconquista expelling even native Iberians who converted to Islam, to North Africa.

As for Romans, Phoenicians, Greeks I suspect none of them contributed substantially at all to Iberian genetics.

Angela
19-10-14, 21:05
I have always suspected that genetic affinity to North Africa is mostly prehistoric, since there are also Iberian affinities in North Africa. Though that might also have to do with the Reconquista expelling even native Iberians who converted to Islam, to North Africa.
.

We normally try not to rely on "suspicions" here. If you have scientific papers which have examined the issue specifically and concluded that this is the case, I'm sure we would all be interested in reading them. I think you will find that the work has not been done. In particular, there has been, to my knowledge, no in depth analysis of E-M81 at a sufficient level of resolution to decide how much came at what time, unless it's present in the paper I linked to upthread, which is behind a pay wall. Perhaps someone can get access for us.

oreo_cookie
20-10-14, 13:12
We normally try not to rely on "suspicions" here. If you have scientific papers which have examined the issue specifically and concluded that this is the case, I'm sure we would all be interested in reading them.

Actually, that conclusion is based in the link's conclusion from the original post. And I agree with it.

joeyc
20-10-14, 13:20
We normally try not to rely on "suspicions" here. If you have scientific papers which have examined the issue specifically and concluded that this is the case, I'm sure we would all be interested in reading them. I think you will find that the work has not been done. In particular, there has been, to my knowledge, no in depth analysis of E-M81 at a sufficient level of resolution to decide how much came at what time, unless it's present in the paper I linked to upthread, which is behind a pay wall. Perhaps someone can get access for us.

Don't mind him. There is also no evidence of Iberian admixture in North Africans, as the latter carry almost 0% R1b, and most of it is of Italic origin from the Romans.

Drac II
20-10-14, 13:27
According to the History of the Jews in Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Spain), "there were about 120 Jewish communities in Christian Spain around 1300, with somewhere around half a million or more Jews". This site gives an estimated population of 9 million for Iberia around 1340. Keeping historical population proportions between Spain and Portugal (roughly 3.5 to 1), that's about 7 million for Spain alone. In other words the Jewish population was at least 7% at that time.

As it usually happens with WikiPedia, this is a purely gratuitous claim. Whoever wrote that references no sources for such estimates that can be consulted. According to historian Corliss Konwiser Slack the Jewish population of "al-Andalus" (Islamic areas of Iberia) was about 1%:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7mak2GeZJIwC&pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=%22One+percent+of+the+population+of+al-Andalus%22&source=bl&ots=J0V9eJKBts&sig=WJNIYcY_rUnTo7HvXSbkeLbXhQg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WO5EVLrSL6ah8QGL-4H4Bg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22One%20percent%20of%20the%20population%20of%20 al-Andalus%22&f=false

"One percent of the population of al-Andalus is estimated to have been Jewish, while the much-disputed Mozarabic and other Christian population numbers have been estimated at 30 percent. All of these groups were protected under Islamic law at the expense of a special tax."


According to Jewish historian Raphael Patai, using the highest estimates known to him, the total population of Jews in all Spain was about 2-3%:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6jNniq7Ji7YC&pg=PA125&dq=%22Jews+constituted+2.7+percent+of+the+total+po pulation+of+Spain%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tu5EVOPrC6KV8QGUt4HACw&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Jews%20constituted%202.7%20percent%20of%20the %20total%20population%20of%20Spain%22&f=false

"...Jews constituted 2.7 percent of the total population of Spain"

According to the authors of "Western Civilization: Beyond the Boundaries" the total population of Jews in all Iberia was around 2%:

http://books.google.com/books?id=2TALAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA319&dq=%22perhaps+2+percent+of+the+population+of+Iberi a+was+Jewish%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Se9EVIPmO8Wa8gHMsIHgBA&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22perhaps%202%20percent%20of%20the%20population %20of%20Iberia%20was%20Jewish%22&f=false

"...perhaps 2 percent of the population of Iberia was Jewish..."

Jews in Iberia were even fewer in number than the Arabs and Berbers, and the highest estimates for these two groups are around 10%, the lowest around 5%. So I find it rather implausible that Jews were at least 7% of the population of Spain.

oreo_cookie
20-10-14, 13:33
Don't mind him. There is also no evidence of Iberian admixture in North Africans, as the latter carry almost 0% R1b, and most of it is of Italic origin from the Romans.

If the source of the admixture was more female-mediated, then it wouldn't show up in paternal haplogroups. Not saying this is what happened, but it'd make both admixture possible and low frequencies of R1b.

And actually, some of the maternal haplogroups found in Iberia are also found in North Africa, such as V.

oreo_cookie
20-10-14, 13:39
Also, just one other thing to point out, about this quote:
"The ancient Greeks had a relatively small impact on the Spanish gene pool, having only a few minor colonies in Catalonia and near Alicante. Modern Catalans have only 2% of haplogroup J2 and 3% of haplogroup E1b1b, the two main Greek lineages."

You might also want to look for Balkan I2 and R1a, both of which are present in Greeks although at lower frequencies. If neither of these is present in Catalonia, then it is possible that the source of J2 and E1b1b might be from the Neolithic (as they are present in low frequencies in many European countries) rather than directly Greek or even Roman.

joeyc
20-10-14, 13:41
If the source of the admixture was more female-mediated, then it wouldn't show up in paternal haplogroups. Not saying this is what happened, but it'd make both admixture possible and low frequencies of R1b.

And actually, some of the maternal haplogroups found in Iberia are also found in North Africa, such as V.

I find it hard to believe that Iberians expelled only females, but kept the males. It simply does not make sense.

Angela
20-10-14, 14:39
[QUOTE=joeyc;442104]I've read this crappy study. It's clear to me that they have oversampled both Southern Italians and Sardinians.

If they had divided Italy in regions (North, Center, South, Islands), the signals of Germanic and Slavic ancestry would have become much clearer. Especially for far North Eastern Italians.[/QUOTEy

I see you're setting yourself up as an expert witness. I know how to handle those. Perhaps you'd like to provide us with your curriculum vitae showing your academic and professional expertise in statistical analysis. I won't demand professional experience on an academic level as a population genetics expert...I can tell you I won't be holding my breath waiting...

If you had read the paper and understood the statistical analyses you would know that they had samples from north to south and there was a steady cline with values ranging from those typical of the Swiss to those typical of Greece.

(This is off-topic, but I hope Maciamo will excuse this small digression. For your information, there is no significant "Slavic" influence in Italy. There is no Slavic influence at all except for whatever stray Slovenes etc. have wandered over the border. If we know anything, we know how to track the "Slavic" R1a markers and they are present at very small percentages. Now, if you want to discuss Italian genetics, perhaps you should find the appropriate thread.)

Angela
20-10-14, 14:54
Actually, that conclusion is based in the link's conclusion from the original post. And I agree with it.

You agree with the conclusion in what link?

This is what you said: "I have always suspected that genetic affinity to North Africa is mostly prehistoric, since there are also Iberian affinities in North Africa. Though that might also have to do with the Reconquista expelling even native Iberians who converted to Islam, to North Africa. "

This is the link to the paper:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22602/abstract;jsessionid=53E24D37D41799AEBB8007962860DD E9.f01t03?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+ be+disrupted+on+the+18th+October+from+10%3A00+BST+ %2805%3A00+EDT%29+for+essential+maintenance+for+ap proximately+two+hours+as+we+make+upgrades+to+impro ve+our+services+to+you&userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

These are the results and conclusion from the paper:
ResultsA relatively homogenous Y-chromosome haplogroup composition was observed in the Zamora province. Haplogroups R1b1-P25 and I-M170, widespread in European populations, accounted for 64.9% of the total sample. Moreover, all of the observed African lineages, accounting for 10.2% of the total variability, belonged to haplogroups having Northwest African origin (E1b1b1b-M81, E1b1b1a-β-M78, and J1-M267).


ConclusionsNo differences between regions or sub-structure due to geographical boundaries were detected. The specific Northwest African male lineages observed contrast with the mitochondrial DNA data, where the majority of African lineages were found to be sub-Saharan. This work made it possible to study the impact of recent historical events in the male gene pool in the province of Zamora in Spain. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 2014. © 2014 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.

So, the "African" mtDna in this province was mostly SSA in origin. The "African" y dna was North African in origin.

That in no way, shape, or form supports what you said, and it is absurd to claim that it does.

Angela
20-10-14, 15:23
Oreo Cookie:Also, just one other thing to point out, about this quote:
"The ancient Greeks had a relatively small impact on the Spanish gene pool, having only a few minor colonies in Catalonia and near Alicante. Modern Catalans have only 2% of haplogroup J2 and 3% of haplogroup E1b1b, the two main Greek lineages."

You might also want to look for Balkan I2 and R1a, both of which are present in Greeks although at lower frequencies. If neither of these is present in Catalonia, then it is possible that the source of J2 and E1b1b might be from the Neolithic (as they are present in low frequencies in many European countries) rather than directly Greek or even Roman.

Again, I fail to see the logic in any of this.

You cannot discuss y dna lineages without specifying the subclades involved. There are I2a clades which apparently were neolithicized very early, and became part of the Neolithic expansions in Europe. (perhaps from the Danube Gorges) That's why you find I2a clades in Sardinia and related clades in Iberia.

That has nothing to do with the I2a clades which form the majority of the I2a in the Balkans and Greece. There are any number of genetic genealogists who believe that those very young and homogenous clades may have arrived in the Balkans, including Greece, during the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period.

Why on earth would Greeks who colonized Spain in the first millennium B.C. have carried these markers?

So, this line of inquiry would prove nothing.

In addition, I'm as puzzled by J2 as everyone else. The fact remains that we have yet to find J2 in a neolithic context. Going by the current distributions however, and the history of the first millennium, I think we can be assured that the Greek colonists would have carried it.

oreo_cookie
20-10-14, 16:14
You agree with the conclusion in what link?

The link posted in the very first post, that the thread starter himself wrote.



That has nothing to do with the I2a clades which form the majority of the I2a in the Balkans and Greece. There are any number of genetic genealogists who believe that those very young and homogenous clades may have arrived in the Balkans, including Greece, during the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period.

Because I2 is not necessarily Slavic, and exists also on the Aegean islands and Crete (places that were never colonized by Slavs). You can see this in y-dna frequencies by region of Greece that are posted on this forum. Additionally R1a has, according to this chart, nearly uniform distribution in Greece.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Angela
20-10-14, 16:29
I've read this crappy study. It's clear to me that they have oversampled both Southern Italians and Sardinians.

If they had divided Italy in regions (North, Center, South, Islands), the signals of Germanic and Slavic ancestry would have become much clearer. Especially for far North Eastern Italians.

Had you truly read the study, and the material provided about the provenance of the samples, and understood the statistical analysis you would know that they discovered a cline in Italy with values ranging from those similar to the Swiss to those more similar to the Greeks.

Just what would satisfy you? A finding that northern Italians are really Germans in disguise? That is highly unlikely to happen.
Do you see northern Italians plotting in Bavaria somewhere on PCA plots? It's as ridiculous as Iberians thinking they plot in Ireland. The most important question, of course, is why do they want to...

(Also, I fail to see why a Neapolitan would be so interested in proving the Nordicity? of northern Italians. Goodness knows who any of you people really are...It's like being in a house of mirrors.)

This is off-topic, so I will keep it brief...there is no significant Slavic input in Italy. There is a bit in far northeastern Italy from whatever Slovenes etc. wandered over the border. If we know anything we know the R1a markers that can be used to track the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period. I have yet to see R1a 458 show up anywhere in Italy other than in the most miniscule percentages. As for the "Germanic" input, if we once again go by the generally accepted y haplogroups, i.e. "I1" and U-106, you are over-hyping their influence in Italy for whatever bizarre reasons.

However, as I said, this is an off-topic discussion which belongs on a thread about Italian genetics.

oreo_cookie
20-10-14, 16:53
Had you truly read the study, and the material provided about the provenance of the samples, and understood the statistical analysis you would know that they discovered a cline in Italy with values ranging from those similar to the Swiss to those more similar to the Greeks.

Similar to some groups of Greeks at least. Mainland Greece, even the Peloponnese, has historically documented and genetically verified Slavic influence. One paper that came out fairly recently found that Sicilians, at least, genetically overlap with the people of Crete. Dodecanese islanders, the most geographically outlying group, are more Anatolian though.

sparkey
20-10-14, 17:44
The link posted in the very first post, that the thread starter himself wrote.



Because I2 is not necessarily Slavic, and exists also on the Aegean islands and Crete (places that were never colonized by Slavs). You can see this in y-dna frequencies by region of Greece that are posted on this forum. Additionally R1a has, according to this chart, nearly uniform distribution in Greece.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml




The I2 typical of Crete is a different subclade than the I2 typical of North Greece. Although precise SNP and STR testing is very rare for Crete, last I looked, it seemed to be mainly I2c, as opposed to the I2a-Din typical of North Greece. From the few samples of I2c in Greece we actually have STRs for, it seems that I2c in Greece is also probably fairly recent. I personally still like Eupedia user haithabu's hypothesis that Cretan I2c represents movement of people within the Republic of Venice.

Angela
20-10-14, 18:27
The link posted in the very first post, that the thread starter himself wrote.



Because I2 is not necessarily Slavic, and exists also on the Aegean islands and Crete (places that were never colonized by Slavs). You can see this in y-dna frequencies by region of Greece that are posted on this forum. Additionally R1a has, according to this chart, nearly uniform distribution in Greece.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml




You are missing the point. I personally don't care one way or another whether the E-V13 and J2 in Catalonia are from Greek settlements in the first millennium B.C. or from the Neolithic. It's of purely historical interest. I don't know why you care so vehemently. Is it more palatable if it came during the Neolithic for some unknown reason? What's wrong with having some Ulysses like, smart, wily, Homer quoting, intrepid Greek traders among your ancestors? Besides, it's all the same genes, you know. I highly doubt that the Greeks of that period were all that different from their Neolithic farmer ancestors.

The point is that no definitive conclusions can be reached because neither lineage has gotten the attention that has been given to R1b and R1a. So, there is no way currently to distinguish between a Neolithic E-V13 and a Greek settlement era E-V13. We don't even know if J2 is Neolithic in Europe or not.

As to I2, you have to determine which subclades are being discussed. In other areas of this site, more recent phylogenies are published, but for these purposes I2a in that chart is the "Neolithic" marker. I2b the "other" one. I2a, which is present in Catalonia at a level of 5% according to the link, could all have a Neolithic arrival date in Catalonia, or some of it could have come with the Greeks, who of course would also have carried their own Neolithic markers. I2b is present at a level of .5%. Some areas of Greece today carry I2b at levels of 3-4%. It is on a north/south cline, which could be interpreted to support the theory that I2b is a "Slavic" marker. R1a is also at a .5% level in Catalonia. Levels are much higher in Greece, but again, it is indeed not uniformly distributed. It also exhibits a north/south cline. Of course, much depends on the subclades, but they are not delineated in this chart.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

So, I fail to see how looking at I2b levels and R1a levels (at very low resolution) in Catalonia today could add support to the argument for the non-Greek origins of E-V13 and J2 in that area when we don't know what the levels of I2b and R1a of any variety would have been in Greeks of the first millennium BC, and the evidence could very easily be interpreted to mean that most of I2b and much of R1a in Greece entered that country 5-700 years later.

Once again, I don't care, and I am not arguing that the E-V13 and the J2 in Catalonia are from Greek settlements. My point was and is that I found your argument unpersuasive.

Oh, if you want to know what a study of a uniparental marker looks like that actually provides a thorough, scientific analysis, you might want to take a look at the very recent paper that does an exhaustive analysis of what is often called the "North African" mtDna U6.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/14/109

It includes this conclusion:
"Actually, the U6 phylogeny and the phylogeography of its lineages are better explained admitting both prehistoric and historic influences in Europe. " Everything depended on the specific subclades involved.

Angela
20-10-14, 18:41
Similar to some groups of Greeks at least. Mainland Greece, even the Peloponnese, has historically documented and genetically verified Slavic influence. One paper that came out fairly recently found that Sicilians, at least, genetically overlap with the people of Crete. Dodecanese islanders, the most geographically outlying group, are more Anatolian though.

If you're going to argue from papers, please provide the links and appropriate quotes so that your assertions can be verified. If you're going to argue from some other genetics source, please provide those links as well. I would advise against relying on 23andme data unless you have familiarized yourself with the reference populations being used for Greece and the Balkans in general. The choices made by 23andme have impacted the results for that area in a negative way, in my opinion. Also, individual results are in no way representative samples.

In either case, this is the kind of forum where you have to be prepared to present a logical argument.

As for Crete, I'm not at all surprised that it might overlap with an area of Italy considering both the pre-historic contacts between the two areas and the very long Italian domination of the island in the historic era, a domination that included settlement and documented intermarriage between Italians and the natives of Crete, and which may, to some degree, have "pulled" Crete even closer to Italy.

You might consider studying the history of the maritime Italian Republics as it concerns the Greek islands and other areas of the east if you have such an interest in Greek genetics. We got around, much like the Greeks themselves.

However, all of this is off-topic.

Now, you gentlemen must excuse me. Iberian ethnogenesis is not my main area of interest.

Sile
20-10-14, 19:26
The I2 typical of Crete is a different subclade than the I2 typical of North Greece. Although precise SNP and STR testing is very rare for Crete, last I looked, it seemed to be mainly I2c, as opposed to the I2a-Din typical of North Greece. From the few samples of I2c in Greece we actually have STRs for, it seems that I2c in Greece is also probably fairly recent. I personally still like Eupedia user haithabu's hypothesis that Cretan I2c represents movement of people within the Republic of Venice.

Isn't I2c classified/named as Adriatic ?

In regards to Venetian crete ( candia ), it was the only colonial area of Venice that one could bring his wife and children ( apart from mainland Italy and istria).
If mixing with the locals was found, then nobility status was lost for thse venetians..........but that does not stop everyone once you found true love!

joeyc
20-10-14, 19:51
Had you truly read the study, and the material provided about the provenance of the samples, and understood the statistical analysis you would know that they discovered a cline in Italy with values ranging from those similar to the Swiss to those more similar to the Greeks.

Just what would satisfy you? A finding that northern Italians are really Germans in disguise? That is highly unlikely to happen.
Do you see northern Italians plotting in Bavaria somewhere on PCA plots? It's as ridiculous as Iberians thinking they plot in Ireland. The most important question, of course, is why do they want to...

(Also, I fail to see why a Neapolitan would be so interested in proving the Nordicity? of northern Italians. Goodness knows who any of you people really are...It's like being in a house of mirrors.)

This is off-topic, so I will keep it brief...there is no significant Slavic input in Italy. There is a bit in far northeastern Italy from whatever Slovenes etc. wandered over the border. If we know anything we know the R1a markers that can be used to track the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period. I have yet to see R1a 458 show up anywhere in Italy other than in the most miniscule percentages. As for the "Germanic" input, if we once again go by the generally accepted y haplogroups, i.e. "I1" and U-106, you are over-hyping their influence in Italy for whatever bizarre reasons.

However, as I said, this is an off-topic discussion which belongs on a thread about Italian genetics.

They have discovered a cline within Italy, but this does not chage these 2 simple facts:

1. Southern Italians and Sardinians are oversampled.
2. There is no clear division, but a cline. So we can only supposed based on Y-dna haplotypes frequencies and genome wide analysis, that the Italians sharing more IBD blocks are Northerners.

Also I don't get why they have only included French Swiss, when most of the invaders were from North Eastern Europe.

http://i.imgur.com/PmiqF8C.png


Talking about Slavic haplogrups, I've found this map for the distribution of R1a M458.

http://i.imgur.com/iKndiPO.gif

sparkey
20-10-14, 21:13
Isn't I2c classified/named as Adriatic ?

Not really, although it does have some minor presence there. You're probably thinking of I2b-L415.

Sile
20-10-14, 21:24
They have discovered a cline within Italy, but this does not chage these 2 simple facts:

1. Southern Italians and Sardinians are oversampled.
2. There is no clear division, but a cline. So we can only supposed based on Y-dna haplotypes frequencies and genome wide analysis, that the Italians sharing more IBD blocks are Northerners.

Also I don't get why they have only included French Swiss, when most of the invaders were from North Eastern Europe.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555.g002&representation=PNG_M


Talking about Slavic haplogrups, I've found this map for the distribution of R1a M458.

http://gentis.ru/img/y/M458.gif

The inclusion of the french swiss is to do with centuries upon centuries of french intrusion into north west italy. Be it from Savoy region of france, where these people became the kings of Italy to franco-provenzal area which was Italian as recently as 120 years ago. Nice, Monaco , Menton where all italian ...........Garibaldi was born in Italian Nice

oreo_cookie
20-10-14, 21:45
If you're going to argue from papers, please provide the links and appropriate quotes so that your assertions can be verified.

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211.full

"The geographic proximity and partial overlap in the PCA of Crete and Sicily is also compatible with gene flow from Crete to Italy and to Southern Europe through population movements along the Southern Mediterranean coast."

Angela
20-10-14, 21:57
Joey:There is no clear division, but a cline. So we can only supposed based on Y-dna haplotypes frequencies and genome wide analysis, that the Italians sharing more IBD blocks are Northerners.

Also I don't get why they have only included French Swiss, when most of the invaders were from North Eastern Europe.

Everyone knows that there is a N/S cline in Italy. Cavalli Sforza talked about it thirty years ago. In more recent times, it's been obvious since Novembre et al. Whom are you trying to convince? That is different from talking about divisions. You are the only one talking about divisions.

You persist in talking about the Ralph and Coop paper when you obviously have not read it carefully. If you had, you would have seen this:
" Because of the large Swiss sample, we split this group into three by language: French-speaking (CHf), German-speaking (CHd), or other (CH). "

This talk about the oversampling of Sardinians and Southern Italians makes no sense to me. Sardinians are irrelevant to the genetic cline of Italy. In case you haven't heard they form their own cluster. They are chosen for sampling because some scholars are actually interested in learning more about the Neolithic expansion in Europe. Cavalli-Sforza included them in the HGDP samples because he knew their central importance in that regard three decades ago. As for southern Italians, the only place where a lot of them have been tested is on 23andme. I was talking about Ralph and Coop et al.

General R1a numbers which in that graph are at extremely low frequencies in Italy cannot be used to show the impact of the Slavic expansions anywhere, including Italy. I hate to break this to you, but there are a lot of varieties of R1a and some of them have nothing to do with the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period.

I will not respond to any more of your off-topic posts on this thread, and if you post an off topic comment again, I will report it. I shouldn't have responded at all. It's time that Maciamo's thread was given the respect that it merits.

Degredado
20-10-14, 22:23
Not to go even more off-topic than this thread already has, but how did Lebanon end up with 2% I1 and 1.5% 12b (as seen on the table on the Iberian Peninsula page)? That's more I1 and I2b than in Spain. I don't think the I1 and I2b in Lebanon could be (entirely) attributed to Western European crusaders, otherwise, there would be a lot more R1b in Lebanon.

Eldritch
21-10-14, 16:33
Isn't I2c classified/named as Adriatic ?

In regards to Venetian crete ( candia ), it was the only colonial area of Venice that one could bring his wife and children ( apart from mainland Italy and istria).
If mixing with the locals was found, then nobility status was lost for thse venetians..........but that does not stop everyone once you found true love!
I2c is Middle Eastern from various sources, found in Caucasus with a certain frequency.

sparkey
21-10-14, 17:59
I2c is Middle Eastern from various sources, found in Caucasus with a certain frequency.

More specifically, I2c PF3881-, which currently constitutes 1 of the 3 major STR clusters in I2c, has a large Caucasian/Near Eastern presence, although the highest diversity of I2c as a whole is clearly in Europe (and the ancient Swedish sample Motala 2 seems to have carried it). Cretan I2c seems to indeed be I2c PF3881-.

What was this thread's topic again? Oh, right. I2c isn't significant in Iberia. Is that helpful? :)

Maciamo
22-10-14, 12:42
Just wanted to let you know that I have added a compilation of Y-DNA maps for Iberia (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/spain_portugal_dna.shtml#frequency).

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Iberia-maps.png

joeyc
22-10-14, 15:15
There must be something wrong on that map, because the frequency of R-L21 in Northern Aragon is just 3.7%, according to Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012.



http://anthrospain.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/r-l21-in-northern-spain.html (http://anthrospain.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/r-l21-in-northern-spain.html)

Wilhelm
22-10-14, 16:08
The map for E-M81 is still wrong. Andalusia on the map appears mostly on the 10-20% shade, when it should be in the 4-5% :

Southern Spaniards n=1/62 1.6% Scozzari 2001.
Huelva, Andalusia n=5/167 2.99% Ambrosio 2010.
Huelva, Andalusia n=1/22 4.5% Flores et al.2004
Seville, Andalusia n=7/155 4.5% Flores et al.2004
Cadiz, Andalusia n=0/28 0.0% Flores et al.2004
Cordoba, Andalusia n=2/27 7.4% Flores et al.2004
Malaga, Andalusia n=3/26 11.5% Flores et al.2004
Andalusia East n=2/95 2.1% Adams et al.
Andalusia West n=10/73 13.7% Adams et al.
Andalusians n=2/37 5.4% (Capelli 2009) Bosch et al.
------------------
Total West Andalusia : 23/445 = 5.17%
Total East Andalusia : 5/121 = 4.13%
Other Andalusia : 5/126 = 3.97%
TOTAL ANDALUSIA : 33/692 = 4.77%

John Doe
27-10-14, 10:10
Wilhelm I don't want to hijack the thread but do you think there was if at all genetic contribution from Spaniards on the Sephardis?

arvistro
27-10-14, 12:04
Wilhelm I don't want to hijack the thread but do you think there was if at all genetic contribution from Spaniards on the Sephardis?
A tiny bit off topic, but to me a small surprise was that Spanish N1c (cousin of South Baltic and cousin of Scandinavian) turned out to be Sephardi. Very low frequency.

Wilhelm
27-10-14, 22:21
Wilhelm I don't want to hijack the thread but do you think there was if at all genetic contribution from Spaniards on the Sephardis?
A little bit, there is some iberian-specific R1b on some sephardis, tho it's small (overall R1b in sefarads is about 10-15%).

John Doe
28-10-14, 10:10
A little bit, there is some iberian-specific R1b on some sephardis, tho it's small (overall R1b in sefarads is about 10-15%).

Okay thanks.