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noUseForAname
18-10-14, 07:08
Was recently been researching about E-V!3...we dont know yet if ancient greeks are the natives of south east Europe or they came from other locations....

As per E-V13 we know that its around 10,000 years, clearly way before ancient greeks. Ive ben reading about palasgians that they were the natives of that region and therefore assuming that they are the ones with E-V13.

We also know that E-V13 has its highest percentage in Albanian speaking regions and Greek speaking regions.

I was wondering if we can share some thoughts and references regarding this...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians



Region/Haplogroup

I1

I2*/I2a

I2b

R1a

R1b

G

J2

J*/J1

E-V13



Albania

2

12

1.5

9

16

1.5

19.5

2

27.5



Kosovo Albanians

5.5

2.5

0

4.5

21

0

16.5

0

47.5



Albanians (Macedonia)

1

9


1.5

18.8

1.6

21.9


39.1



Greece (Peloponnese)









47



Greece (South)

3

20


2.2

19.6

5.5



43.5



Greece (North)

2

12


19

14.6

5.2



35.4



Greece (Crete)


13


8.8

17


39


8.8



Greece (Thrace)


19


22

12


19


19



Greece (ethnic Greeks)


19


16

11.7

9

17


19



Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)

1

33

1.5

5.1

15.2

1.5



24.1



Bulgaria

4

20

2

17

11

5

11

3

23.5



Bosniaks

4

56

0

16

3

2

3.5

0.5

10



Bosnian Croats

0

71

2

12

2

1

1

0

9



Bosnian Serbs

2.5

31

2.5

13.5

6

1

8.5

0

22.5



Croatia

5.5

37

1

24

8.5

2

6

1

10



Serbia

8.5

33

0.5

16

8

2

8

0.5

18

Maleth
18-10-14, 09:00
100 theories and 100 different opinions (a saying we have locally). Im not very good at retrieving old posts on this forum as my search always results in nothing found, but E-V13 has been discussed extensively here and there from time to time.

As things stand my opinion is that E-V13 is born somewhere in Balkans and was exported to other regions were it comes in medium to rare occurrences. If it really was mutated in West Asia, then soon after the mutation the guy was very quick to cross over to the Balkans and make lots of babies there. The Island hopping from North Africa is too hard to digest at this stage so not even considered. The fact the the highest percentages are found in countries to the north of Greece and in South Greece itself makes all the more interesting and to add more to the mystery the 7000 year old skeleton found in Iberia makes it all the MORE intriguing.........just have to wait for more reliable results from the professionals.

bicicleur
18-10-14, 10:10
E-V13

1 st move from Africa to Anatolia 14000 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture

Notes[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mushabian_culture&action=edit&section=4)]^α (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#ref_Alpha) Although a migration of people from Africa bringing E-M78 lineages into the Levant took place c. 14,700 years ago[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#cite_note-16) it as yet cannot be linked with any of the Levantine cultures at the time (Hamran, Mushabian, Ramonian, Geometric Kebaran) or later (Natufian, Harifian, Khiamian) since all are known to have originated in the Levant.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#cite_note-Olszewski.2C_D.I_2006.2C_p._19-26-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#cite_note-Goring-Morris.2C_Nigel_2009-4) Since a material culture cannot be connected with the E-M78 immigrants into the Levant it is likely they were assimilated into the various Levantine cultures beginning with the Ramonian culture, which was present in the Sinai 14,700 years ago. This migration coincided with the population overflow in the Sinai and Negev that caused the Geometric Kebarans to fall back to the Mediterranean core area which in turn caused them to develop the Natufian culture as a result of the population increase in the Mediterranean park forest.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#cite_note-17)

9000 year ago in Anatolia :
http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471

During the most recent ice age, milk was essentially a toxin to adults because — unlike children — they could not produce the lactase enzyme required to break down lactose, the main sugar in milk. But as farming started to replace hunting and gathering in the Middle East around 11,000 years ago, cattle herders learned how to reduce lactose in dairy products to tolerable levels by fermenting milk to make cheese or yogurt. Several thousand years later, a genetic mutation spread through Europe that gave people the ability to produce lactase — and drink milk — throughout their lives. That adaptation opened up a rich new source of nutrition that could have sustained communities when harvests failed.
This two-step milk revolution may have been a prime factor in allowing bands of farmers and herders from the south to sweep through Europe and displace the hunter-gatherer cultures that had lived there for millennia. “They spread really rapidly into northern Europe from an archaeological point of view,” says Mark Thomas, a population geneticist at University College London. That wave of emigration left an enduring imprint on Europe, where, unlike in many regions of the world, most people can now tolerate milk. “It could be that a large proportion of Europeans are descended from the first lactase-persistent dairy farmers in Europe,” says Thomas.

these moving to Europe were E-V13, J1 and T among others
(these moving to Africa : R1b-V88 and T)

arrival in the Balkans 7200 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamangia_culture

albanopolis
18-10-14, 12:16
Was recently been researching about E-V!3...we dont know yet if ancient greeks are the natives of south east Europe or they came from other locations....

As per E-V13 we know that its around 10,000 years, clearly way before ancient greeks. Ive ben reading about palasgians that they were the natives of that region and therefore assuming that they are the ones with E-V13.

We also know that E-V13 has its highest percentage in Albanian speaking regions and Greek speaking regions.

I was wondering if we can share some thoughts and references regarding this...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians



Region/Haplogroup
I1
I2*/I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G
J2
J*/J1
E-V13


Albania
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5


Kosovo Albanians
5.5
2.5
0
4.5
21
0
16.5
0
47.5


Albanians (Macedonia)
1
9

1.5
18.8
1.6
21.9

39.1


Greece (Peloponnese)








47


Greece (South)
3
20

2.2
19.6
5.5


43.5


Greece (North)
2
12

19
14.6
5.2


35.4


Greece (Crete)

13

8.8
17

39

8.8


Greece (Thrace)

19

22
12

19

19


Greece (ethnic Greeks)

19

16
11.7
9
17

19


Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)
1
33
1.5
5.1
15.2
1.5


24.1


Bulgaria
4
20
2
17
11
5
11
3
23.5


Bosniaks
4
56
0
16
3
2
3.5
0.5
10


Bosnian Croats
0
71
2
12
2
1
1
0
9


Bosnian Serbs
2.5
31
2.5
13.5
6
1
8.5
0
22.5


Croatia
5.5
37
1
24
8.5
2
6
1
10


Serbia
8.5
33
0.5
16
8
2
8
0.5
18



Pellasgian preancient Greeks?
Seriously?
If they were pre ancient greeks, why are they pellasgians?

Maleth
18-10-14, 15:06
E-V13

1 st move from Africa to Anatolia 14000 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture

Notes[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mushabian_culture&action=edit&section=4)]

^α (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#ref_Alpha) Although a migration of people from Africa bringing E-M78 lineages into the Levant took place c. 14,700 years ago[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#cite_note-16) it as yet cannot be linked with any of the Levantine cultures at the time (Hamran, Mushabian, Ramonian, Geometric Kebaran) or later (Natufian, Harifian, Khiamian) since all are known to have originated in the Levant.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#cite_note-Olszewski.2C_D.I_2006.2C_p._19-26-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#cite_note-Goring-Morris.2C_Nigel_2009-4) Since a material culture cannot be connected with the E-M78 immigrants into the Levant it is likely they were assimilated into the various Levantine cultures beginning with the Ramonian culture, which was present in the Sinai 14,700 years ago. This migration coincided with the population overflow in the Sinai and Negev that caused the Geometric Kebarans to fall back to the Mediterranean core area which in turn caused them to develop the Natufian culture as a result of the population increase in the Mediterranean park forest.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#cite_note-17)

9000 year ago in Anatolia :
http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471

During the most recent ice age, milk was essentially a toxin to adults because — unlike children — they could not produce the lactase enzyme required to break down lactose, the main sugar in milk. But as farming started to replace hunting and gathering in the Middle East around 11,000 years ago, cattle herders learned how to reduce lactose in dairy products to tolerable levels by fermenting milk to make cheese or yogurt. Several thousand years later, a genetic mutation spread through Europe that gave people the ability to produce lactase — and drink milk — throughout their lives. That adaptation opened up a rich new source of nutrition that could have sustained communities when harvests failed.
This two-step milk revolution may have been a prime factor in allowing bands of farmers and herders from the south to sweep through Europe and displace the hunter-gatherer cultures that had lived there for millennia. “They spread really rapidly into northern Europe from an archaeological point of view,” says Mark Thomas, a population geneticist at University College London. That wave of emigration left an enduring imprint on Europe, where, unlike in many regions of the world, most people can now tolerate milk. “It could be that a large proportion of Europeans are descended from the first lactase-persistent dairy farmers in Europe,” says Thomas.

these moving to Europe were E-V13, J1 and T among others
(these moving to Africa : R1b-V88 and T)

arrival in the Balkans 7200 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamangia_culture



Thank you for the analysis and its very interesting flow of possible origins. However none of the articles gives a breakdown of haplogroups except for the E-M78 clade which is further down stream to E-V13 and therefore E-V13 was not mutated yet. The verdict is still not out to were E-V13 is mutated with any accuracy. As I still believe that if E-V13 was mutated in West Asia or Anatolia then, I would imagine for this haplogroup to be a little more popular there then it is today. According to Eupidia Map E-V13 is only present in any significant Numbers on the costal areas of West asia (that were Hellenized at some point in time before the ottoman take over), so there is also a good explanation for the export. (There is an exception with the inner areas of more or less Kurd territory)

I would presume that according to this pattern, this would mean an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. This clade is very rare in North Africa besides the fact that is mostly found amongst Libyan Jews. It is also well known that there had been a strong Greek presence in Lower Egypt (meaning coastal North Egypt) since classical times, and still its still not presented there in any significant numbers. Again its very obvious to me that this is an export from the balkans and not the other way round. My opinion can change as more reliable info come in.

noUseForAname
18-10-14, 15:46
100 theories and 100 different opinions (a saying we have locally). Im not very good at retrieving old posts on this forum as my search always results in nothing found, but E-V13 has been discussed extensively here and there from time to time.

As things stand my opinion is that E-V13 is born somewhere in Balkans and was exported to other regions were it comes in medium to rare occurrences. If it really was mutated in West Asia, then soon after the mutation the guy was very quick to cross over to the Balkans and make lots of babies there. The Island hopping from North Africa is too hard to digest at this stage so not even considered. The fact the the highest percentages are found in countries to the north of Greece and in South Greece itself makes all the more interesting and to add more to the mystery the 7000 year old skeleton found in Iberia makes it all the MORE intriguing.........just have to wait for more reliable results from the professionals.

Thats what ive ben reading too, So as far as we know E-V13 is born in South East (parts of Albanian Speaking regions and Greek speaking regions) and it didnt came from anywhere else...
Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011)) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_G2a_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&redlink=1), which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

Therefore, my intention is to know to which population E-V13 was the highest, Ancient Greeks, Pelasgians, or some other tribes...

bicicleur
18-10-14, 16:41
Thank you for the analysis and its very interesting flow of possible origins. However none of the articles gives a breakdown of haplogroups except for the E-M78 clade which is further down stream to E-V13 and therefore E-V13 was not mutated yet. The verdict is still not out to were E-V13 is mutated with any accuracy. As I still believe that if E-V13 was mutated in West Asia or Anatolia then, I would imagine for this haplogroup to be a little more popular there then it is today. According to Eupidia Map E-V13 is only present in any significant Numbers on the costal areas of West asia (that were Hellenized at some point in time before the ottoman take over), so there is also a good explanation for the export. (There is an exception with the inner areas of more or less Kurd territory)

I would presume that according to this pattern, this would mean an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. This clade is very rare in North Africa besides the fact that is mostly found amongst Libyan Jews. It is also well known that there had been a strong Greek presence in Lower Egypt (meaning coastal North Egypt) since classical times, and still its still not presented there in any significant numbers. Again its very obvious to me that this is an export from the balkans and not the other way round. My opinion can change as more reliable info come in.

you are right, I just pointed out a possibility

here are some more elements :

the origin of E1b1b - M215 is probably the Ethiopian highlands which was an ice age refuge, just south of the Sahara
you will notice several subclades of E-M215 still live in Ethiopia

the Nile valley was populated 22-14000 years ago, after which the Nile valley became unihabitable was abandoned for several 1000 years
this population may have been well have been E-M78, and 14000-15000 years ago the subclades of E-M78 fled the Nile valley
hence the move of E-V13 toward SW Asia

as for the Balkans :

yes, most of E-V13 arrived in the Balkans 7200 years ago and spread from there (few stayed in SW Asia)
note that first neolithic people arrived in the Balkan only some 8600 years ago, and they were probably G2a
also note mesolithic people did not live in the Balkans except north of the Donau, and the coastal areas of southern Greece,
in other words : the Balkans were virtualy uninhabited prior to 8600 years ago
this makes mesolithic presence of E-V13 in the Balkans very unlikely

Yetos
18-10-14, 16:56
you are right, I just pointed out a possibility

here are some more elements :

the origin of E1b1b - M215 is probably the Ethiopian highlands which was an ice age refuge, just south of the Sahara
you will notice several subclades of E-M215 still live in Ethiopia

the Nile valley was populated 22-14000 years ago, after which the Nile valley became unihabitable was abandoned for several 1000 years
this population may have been well have been E-M78, and 14000-15000 years ago the subclades of E-M78 fled the Nile valley
hence the move of E-V13 toward SW Asia

as for the Balkans :

yes, most of E-V13 arrived in the Balkans 7200 years ago and spread from there (few stayed in SW Asia)
note that first neolithic people arrived in the Balkan only some 8600 years ago, and they were probably G2a
also note mesolithic people did not live in the Balkans except north of the Donau, and the coastal areas of southern Greece,
in other words : the Balkans were virtualy uninhabited prior to 8600 years ago
this makes mesolithic presence of E-V13 in the Balkans very unlikely


Dienekes gives E-V13 in Balkans around 2000 BC meaning 4-4200 ky from now
date which cognates with Konya DNA the closest near by,

Pelasgians have nothing to do with E-V13, cause the name Pelasgians is found Historically in areas where even today E-V13 is less than 6%

pelasgians were J2 and G2 people, or else the ones we call eteoCretans or the Arzawa/assuwa if not IE (anatolian branch)


The Konya E-V13 date fits exactly with the Kadmeians, not with Pelasgians,

In NORTH EPIRUS a city was Build by Kadmeians named Phoinike, the E-V13 came from levant, the myth of Phoenician Alphabet,

if Pelasgians were E-V13 Raetia and Tuscany and sud Tyrol should have high E-V13,
It is not found in Etruscan tombs,

Pelasgians and Etruscans are the same,


I have wrote many times about that, but Albanian propagandistic agenda in order to prove that E-V13 is before and ancient of all other Hgroups insist in the Iberian E-V13,
so as to make Kadmeians as Pelasgians and Etruscans,

so I am to post the result of Dienekes about Balkanic E-V13 to show that is not pelasgian,
Besides all ancient Historians connect Pelasgians with Thyrrenians (Etruscans sardinians etc)
and the archaiological found prove that with Lemnean stele.

no if someone wants to connect Etruscans Sardinians and Generally Villanovans with E-v13 it is his problem,

noUseForAname
18-10-14, 17:05
E-V13

1 st move from Africa to Anatolia 14000 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture

Notes[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mushabian_culture&action=edit&section=4)]

^α (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#ref_Alpha) Although a migration of people from Africa bringing E-M78 lineages into the Levant took place c. 14,700 years ago[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#cite_note-16) it as yet cannot be linked with any of the Levantine cultures at the time (Hamran, Mushabian, Ramonian, Geometric Kebaran) or later (Natufian, Harifian, Khiamian) since all are known to have originated in the Levant.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#cite_note-Olszewski.2C_D.I_2006.2C_p._19-26-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#cite_note-Goring-Morris.2C_Nigel_2009-4) Since a material culture cannot be connected with the E-M78 immigrants into the Levant it is likely they were assimilated into the various Levantine cultures beginning with the Ramonian culture, which was present in the Sinai 14,700 years ago. This migration coincided with the population overflow in the Sinai and Negev that caused the Geometric Kebarans to fall back to the Mediterranean core area which in turn caused them to develop the Natufian culture as a result of the population increase in the Mediterranean park forest.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture#cite_note-17)

9000 year ago in Anatolia :
http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471

During the most recent ice age, milk was essentially a toxin to adults because — unlike children — they could not produce the lactase enzyme required to break down lactose, the main sugar in milk. But as farming started to replace hunting and gathering in the Middle East around 11,000 years ago, cattle herders learned how to reduce lactose in dairy products to tolerable levels by fermenting milk to make cheese or yogurt. Several thousand years later, a genetic mutation spread through Europe that gave people the ability to produce lactase — and drink milk — throughout their lives. That adaptation opened up a rich new source of nutrition that could have sustained communities when harvests failed.
This two-step milk revolution may have been a prime factor in allowing bands of farmers and herders from the south to sweep through Europe and displace the hunter-gatherer cultures that had lived there for millennia. “They spread really rapidly into northern Europe from an archaeological point of view,” says Mark Thomas, a population geneticist at University College London. That wave of emigration left an enduring imprint on Europe, where, unlike in many regions of the world, most people can now tolerate milk. “It could be that a large proportion of Europeans are descended from the first lactase-persistent dairy farmers in Europe,” says Thomas.

these moving to Europe were E-V13, J1 and T among others
(these moving to Africa : R1b-V88 and T)

arrival in the Balkans 7200 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamangia_culture




Very interesting theories, however I support the Maleth claim that the export came from Balkans to the costal north Egypt and not the other way around...

E-V13 coming from Levant is not supported by DNA links...it is at at the very lowest % on that region, i think just about 2%...and in north Africa even lower 0.9%

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

Angela
18-10-14, 19:00
I fail to see how any of you could know when E-V13 was first present in southeastern Europe.

The only E-V13 ancient sample we have is indeed 7,200 years old, of course. It was found in a Neolithic context in western Europe. I think the evidence is persuasive that it was part of the Neolithic migrations from the eastern Mediterranean, if not specifically the Balkans.

So, presumably, it would have been present at least some time before 7,200 years ago in the area of dispersal of the Neolithic. How much before is just guesswork. Until we have an ancient E-V13 sample from the Balkans, or perhaps from the Aegean, we won't have the answer.

See the following thread:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28685-Questions-about-the-European-E1b/page2?highlight=haplogroup+E-V13

From that thread:
"What we know, as Dienekes pointed out, is that the E-V13 in the Balkans experienced a large expansion in the Bronze Age, and from a small group of founders, apparently, as it has very little diversity. For some reason, it was in a very lucky position. It might be that it was connected in some way with bronze weapons. It's also probable that the E-V13 in Italy is due to migration from the Balkans or Greece.

None of those things tell us when it arrived in the Balkans, or from where, but the phylogeny certainly provides evidence that it came from the Near East. (I don't know where this Caucasus thing comes from...the yDna most associated with the Caucasus is "G" and "J", not "E".)

It's also possible, as some early papers posited, that E-V13 arrived in southeastern Europe in the Mesolithic, but as time passes and all the ancient dna from that period turns out to be some form of I2, that's looking less and less likely. Still, we don't have any yDna from the Aegean yet, so there's still a chance that some moved into that area in the Mesolithic. After all, it's hardly an insurmountable distance.

What is also true is that whether it had reached the periphery of south-eastern Europe by the time of the Mesolithic, or accompanied the G farmers directly from the Near East, or both, the findings in Neolithic contexts in other early Cardial sites means that it was part of the early Neolithic expansion. It may have been and probably was in the southeast from that time, as the samples also show. What we are seeing in the Balkans today is that a lot of the E-V13 is from a lineage which, as I said, underwent a massive expansion during the Bronze Age. Whether the lineages in southern Germany, for example, are part of the same group or descendents of different sub-clades or both, we don't know yet know.

Oh, it's possible that the specific "E-V13" mutation took place in Europe, but I currently don't see evidence for that, given that there are non-negligible amounts in the Near East even after the massive expansions there of J1 and J2. Let's not forget that G2 has also been superseded in the Near East. It survives in the Caucasus in such high numbers mainly, in my opinion, because it is an area of refuge.

See the following for a map of the spread of the y lineages:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...E1b1bRoute.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/E1b1bRoute.png)

I would also caution against attempts to tie ydna to autosomal percentages too strictly. We all have mothers too. The English are close to 50% EEF, and yet they have negligible amounts of E and J and T. Plus, by the time that the R1b and R1a men got to Europe, we don't know how much "Mediterranean" ancestry they carried.

One final thing as to I2a. It's clear that it was a fisher/hunter gatherer lineage present in Europe before the arrival of farming. However, some clades apparently made the transition to farming very early, perhaps from a group around the Danube Gorges, and became part of the Neolithic farmer world, to show up in Sardinia and Iberia, for example. Others may have fled into more northern areas, only to be neolithicized by the Indo-Europeans perhaps and then return with the Slavs. Whether some subclades remained in the more southern reaches of the Balkans we don't know. None of this will become clearer until we have ancient dna from the relevant groups at a reasonable level of resolution.

For a general overview of all of this, I often recommend Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys. As the new discoveries are coming fast and furiously, I am sure she is already preparing a new edition, but it's an excellent book and a good primer for this field of study, whether she turns out to be correct in every particular or not.

The fact that E-V13 was part of the early Neolithic is incontrovertible. As is the fact that the sample was found in the Iberian Neolithic. (This means that E-V13 has been in Europe for at least 7,000 years, longer than the "R" lineages, at least so far as our current ancient samples would indicate.)

That doesn't tell us where it originated. The phylogeny would indicate that it is sourced in the Near East, although it's possible, as Maleth pointed out, that the mutation occurred in Europe. I still think that it is more likely it originated in the Middle East, given the levels in the Druze, a population that seems to have preserved the more ancient lineages of the Middle East, but it wouldn't at all surprise me to discover that Maleth is correct.

The editor of the "E" pages on Wiki is very knowledgeable, in my opinion, and so I think that the following page gives a very nice summary.(You can jump to the E-V13 section.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...autBrucato2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011)

See also the Marie Lacan et al paper which found the ancient E-V13 sample:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.long

As to the route that E-V13 took to reach Iberia, the Avellenar site is an epi-Cardial one. This is a good map of the Cardial migrations as determined by archaeology:
http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-con...urope-map1.gif (http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/europe-map1.gif)
Note that according to some researchers, at least, the start of the Cardial culture in Europe can be located on the Adriatic in the Balkans.

It's true that there were Cardial sites in North Africa and some have posited a movement from those sites into Iberia.
http://forwhattheywereweare.files.wo...e15_image1.jpg (http://forwhattheywereweare.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/zephyrvs_lxvi_2010_page15_image1.jpg)

However, please note the location of the Avellenar site:
http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress..../ancient-y.png (http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/ancient-y.png)

Given this location and the correspondences between Avellenar and Treilles, I think it highly likely that Avellenar was part of the Cardial expansion that moved along the northern Mediterranean.

If someone wishes to quibble with the Bronze Age date (based on pedigree type rates) for the expansion of E-V13 in the Balkans, that's fine. The alternative is to use the Zivitovsky rate which is 2 1/2 times slower, which would mean it had its massive expansion way back in the Neolithic.

There is no evidence whatsoever, to my knowledge, linking E-V13 to the Caucasus (that is G and J2 country) or the Turks, or some mythical group of Egyptians. Nor is there any indication so far that it came to Europe by way of Gibraltar. That is highly probable, of course, for at least some of E-M81, which has a very different history and distribution.

We try to deal with science and recorded history here, not myths or things used as calumnies of one sort or another.

It would help further discussion to read the relevant cited papers. and if there is disagreement, to cite contradictory papers. "

As I discussed with Maleth, I am not married to the opinion that the precise E-V13 mutation took place in the Levant. Maybe it took place somewhere in the Aegean or the Balkans. I'm not sure yet.

This obsession with Pelasgians is very misplaced, in my opinion. This is just a word used by Greeks for certain groups of non-Greeks. They didn't know about ydna and didn't carry around spit containers to test it. No doubt the "Pelasgians" they came across were very EEF people of various yDna and mtDna combinations in different proportions depending on the group.

LeBrok
18-10-14, 19:34
From that thread:
"What we know, as Dienekes pointed out, is that the E-V13 in the Balkans experienced a large expansion in the Bronze Age, and from a small group of founders, apparently, as it has very little diversity. For some reason, it was in a very lucky position. It might be that it was connected in some way with bronze weapons. It's also probable that the E-V13 in Italy is due to migration from the Balkans or Greece.



The excellent time for expansion of new clads are the cultural/economic collapses, and we had quite few of them through Neolithic to present. I think we are going to see a dominance of G and E haplogroups in Neolithic. Then shift to J2 and J1 during copper age. After Bronze Age collapse we see dominance of R1b and R1a. They arrived in Bronze Age but true expansion of the them happened after the collapse. This might have been good time for E-V13 expansion, or it expanded to current coverage after Dark Ages when Balkans were depopulated, together with I2a-Din. Expansion happened from small secluded communities who survived fairly intact.

bicicleur
18-10-14, 20:12
This obsession with Pelasgians is very misplaced, in my opinion. This is just a word used by Greeks for certain groups of non-Greeks. They didn't know about ydna and didn't carry around spit containers to test it. No doubt the "Pelasgians" they came across were very EEF people of various yDna and mtDna combinations in different proportions depending on the group.

definition of who/what pelasgians were is not clear
i'd say they were the indogenous people of Greece before the arrival of the Myceneans some 3700 years ago
so they were a mixed people from many different haplogroups, E-V13 is (probably) only one of them

Sile
18-10-14, 20:16
Why is it that E-V13 is concentrated in one area in europe and not dispersed evenly throughout Europe especially if it entered Europe very early as some say?

Is there E-V13 on all coastal areas of the med. as well as all islands of the med.?

The answer is that it arrived late into Europe

bicicleur
18-10-14, 20:22
What is also true is that whether it had reached the periphery of south-eastern Europe by the time of the Mesolithic, or accompanied the G farmers directly from the Near East, or both, the findings in Neolithic contexts in other early Cardial sites means that it was part of the early Neolithic expansion. It may have been and probably was in the southeast from that time, as the samples also show. What we are seeing in the Balkans today is that a lot of the E-V13 is from a lineage which, as I said, underwent a massive expansion during the Bronze Age. Whether the lineages in southern Germany, for example, are part of the same group or descendents of different sub-clades or both, we don't know yet know.


as I mentioned above :
mesolithic people did not live in the Balkans except north of the Donau, and the coastal areas of southern Greece,
in other words : the Balkans were virtualy uninhabited prior to 8600 years ago

Maleth
18-10-14, 20:28
they came across were very EEF people of various yDna and mtDna combinations in different proportions depending on the group.

This is something we very often ignore. Many ancient groups of peoples have been living in a particular geographical area for a long period of time before expanding further so the opportunity to mix was big. While one haplogroup could have a higher percentage then other they would have been pretty mixed already, very much like today. When one considers that homosapien migration from Africa started around 70,000 years ago, the entries in Europe (comparitively) are pretty recent ;)

Maleth
18-10-14, 20:40
Why is it that E-V13 is concentrated in one area in europe and not dispersed evenly throughout Europe especially if it entered Europe very early as some say?

Is there E-V13 on all coastal areas of the med. as well as all islands of the med.?

The answer is that it arrived late into Europe

Which haplogroup is dispersed evenly in Europe? Not sure what your assumption has got to do with E-V13 age? Let science work on it, it can give better answers

noUseForAname
18-10-14, 22:58
...........

noUseForAname
18-10-14, 23:01
Dienekes gives E-V13 in Balkans around 2000 BC meaning 4-4200 ky from now
date which cognates with Konya DNA the closest near by,

Pelasgians have nothing to do with E-V13, cause the name Pelasgians is found Historically in areas where even today E-V13 is less than 6%


Pelasgians seem to be all around north to the south, Peloponnese area too, Check the map of HOMER
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Pelasgians.jpg/220px-Pelasgians.jpg

So according ti Homer this looks like its actually the opposite....



Region/Haplogroup
I1
I2*/I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G
J2
J*/J1
E-V13














Greece (Peloponnese)








47


Greece (South)
3
20

2.2
19.6
5.5


43.5


Greece (North)
2
12

19
14.6
5.2


35.4














Greece (ethnic Greeks)

19

16
11.7
9
17

19














http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

FYI there is no such thing as 6% of E-V13 in Greece, current modern greeks have 19% of E-V13

Taranis
18-10-14, 23:52
I think I mentioned that before, I am wary of the concept of "Pelasgians", and it makes fairly little sense in the context of genetics, in my opinion. To make matters worse the term has been on and off (including by people who used to be on this board) hijacked.

It makes some sense in linguistics (in the sense of "pre-Greek" languages, but you should consider that this is a modern coinage, with a different definition from the one given by Homer), but its fairly obvious that there was not "one" pre-Greek language. If anything, you can talk of Pelasgian "languages" that existed in the Agaean (two, for certain: Minoan in Crete, Lemnian on Lemnos, there may have been more), which were not related with one another.

albanopolis
19-10-14, 00:19
I think I mentioned that before, I am wary of the concept of "Pelasgians", and it makes fairly little sense in the context of genetics, in my opinion. To make matters worse the term has been on and off (including by people who used to be on this board) hijacked.

It makes some sense in linguistics (in the sense of "pre-Greek" languages, but you should consider that this is a modern coinage, with a different definition from the one given by Homer), but its fairly obvious that there was not "one" pre-Greek language. If anything, you can talk of Pelasgian "languages" that existed in the Agaean (two, for certain: Minoan in Crete, Lemnian on Lemnos, there may have been more), which were not related with one another.
There is written evidence about Pelasgians. They probably were I1 and I2

Aaron1981
19-10-14, 04:04
Why is it that E-V13 is concentrated in one area in europe and not dispersed evenly throughout Europe especially if it entered Europe very early as some say?

Is there E-V13 on all coastal areas of the med. as well as all islands of the med.?

The answer is that it arrived late into Europe

I don't think so. It peaks in the Balkans, but is rather common in southern Italy and Spain.

noUseForAname
19-10-14, 04:06
This is what i found so far...according to some sources Pelazgians (also called minoans) were the inhabitants living in those regions....

The name Pelasgians (/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)p (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ə (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ˈ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)l (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)æ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)z (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)dʒ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)i (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ə (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)n (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)z (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key), (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key) - (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)dʒ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ə (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)n (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)z (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key), (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key) - (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ɡ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)i (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ə (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)n (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)z (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English); Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí; singular: Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by some ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece) writers to refer to populations that either were the ancestors of the Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) or preceded the Greeks in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece), "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-1) In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-2) This is not an exclusive meaning, but other senses require identification when meant. During the classical period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Greece), enclaves under that name survived in several locations of mainland Greece, Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete), and other regions of the Aegean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea). Populations identified as "Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarians)aric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarians)", even though some ancient writers described the Pelasgians as Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks). A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenization). These parts generally fell within the ethnic domain that by the 5th century BC was attributed to those speakers of ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) who were identified as Ionians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionians).
Homer[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pelasgians&action=edit&section=4)]The Pelasgians first appear in the poems of Homer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer): those who are stated to be Pelasgians in the Iliad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliad) are among the allies of Troy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy). In the section known as theCatalogue of Trojans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Trojans), they are mentioned between mentions of the Hellespontine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellespont) cities and the Thracians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians) of south-eastern Europe (i.e., on the Hellespontine border ofThrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace)).[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-11) Homer calls their town or district "Larisa"[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-12) and characterises it as fertile, and its inhabitants as celebrated for their spearsmanship. He records their chiefs as Hippothous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippothous) and Pylaeus, sons of Lethus son of Teutamus, thus giving all of them names that were Greek or so thoroughly Hellenized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenization) that any foreign element has been effaced.
In the Odyssey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey), Odysseus, affecting to be Cretan himself, instances Pelasgians among the tribes in the ninety cities of Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete), "language mixing with language side by side".[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-13)
The Iliad also refers to "Pelasgic Argos",[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-14) which is most likely to be the plain of Thessaly,[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-15) and to "Pelasgic Zeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus)", living in and ruling over Dodona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodona),[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-16) which must be the oracular one in Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus). However, neither passage mentions actual Pelasgians; Myrmidons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmidons), Hellenes, and Achaeans specifically inhabit Thessaly and the Selloi are around Dodona. They all fought on the Greek side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians


The name Pelasgians, was used by ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that preceded the White Hellenes in Greece. During the classical period, enclaves under that name survived in several locations of mainland Greece, Crete and other regions of the Aegean. Populations identified as "Pelasgian" spoke a language that at the time, Greeks identified as not Greek. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. Archaeological excavations during the 20th century have unearthed artifacts in areas traditionally inhabited by the Pelasgians, like Thessaly and Attica and Lemnos. Archaeologists excavating at Sesklo and Dimini have described Pelasgian material culture as Neolithic.
Since next to nothing is known about the Pelasgians, The question of who built Mycenae (The first great city on mainland Greece), looms large. According to the White Greeks (the Hellenes) myth of Danaus, the building of Mycenae was a collaborative effort between Crete and Egypt. But since Mycenae was build at about 2,000 B.C, almost one thousand years before the Hellenes arrived in Greece, there can be no confidence that the hellenic myth has any factual basis.
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Minoan_Greece_1a.htm

I also found this pretty interesting, it might show some good links, although in some extent it might be nationalistic...

1. The Greeks and the Albanians have a common origin from the proto-Greek race of Pelasgians.

6. The Greek-Pelasgian civilization predates the Eastern civilizations. The Sumerians were Pelasgians. The Sumerian language consisted of Greek and Albanian words and its structure was similar with the structure of the Albanian language. The theory of “ex oriente lux” (the light from the East) is overturned and the theory of “ex Balkan lux” (the light from the Balkan) is supported with proofs, as the Balkan was the cradle of civilization.
http://www.greeks-albanians.com/eng-m-home

Maybe this might be a link that Civilizations were actually spread from the south east Europe to north Egypt and to Sumerians....

joeyc
19-10-14, 13:53
I don't think so. It peaks in the Balkans, but is rather common in southern Italy and Spain.

E-v13 is quite rare anywhere in Italy.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

Taranis
19-10-14, 13:58
There is written evidence about Pelasgians. They probably were I1 and I2

Did the ancient Greeks have their DNA tested and then wrote down their results? I don't think so.


I also found this pretty interesting, it might show some good links, although in some extent it might be nationalistic...

Might be? :rolleyes2:


1. The Greeks and the Albanians have a common origin from the proto-Greek race of Pelasgians.

Absolutely wrong. The Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with the Pelasgians: there is no common substrate in Greek and Albanian (in that case, you might argue for ). And to ad-hoc label the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" has absolutely no basis. If you want to use the term correctly, you should talk about the Pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Aegean.

The idea that the Albanians have something to do with the Pelasgians is entirely a confabulation from the 19th and 20th centuries.


6. The Greek-Pelasgian civilization predates the Eastern civilizations. The Sumerians were Pelasgians. The Sumerian language consisted of Greek and Albanian words and its structure was similar with the structure of the Albanian language. The theory of “ex oriente lux” (the light from the East) is overturned and the theory of “ex Balkan lux” (the light from the Balkan) is supported with proofs, as the Balkan was the cradle of civilization.
http://www.greeks-albanians.com/eng-m-home

Maybe this might be a link that Civilizations were actually spread from the south east Europe to north Egypt and to Sumerians....

Jeez. Whoever claimed that was a complete crank, because its in complete ignorance of archaeology and linguistics... :vomitting:

- Sumerian is an isolate language.
- Urbanization and agriculture in the Near East and Egypt is older than in Europe. Archaeology does not lie there.
- Literacy in Mesopotamia (Cuneiform) and Egypt (hieroglyphs) is older than in Europe (Linear A would be the oldest true European writing), again.

albanopolis
19-10-14, 15:14
Did the ancient Greeks have their DNA tested and then wrote down their results? I don't think so.



Might be? :rolleyes2:



Absolutely wrong. The Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with the Pelasgians: there is no common substrate in Greek and Albanian (in that case, you might argue for ). And to ad-hoc label the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" has absolutely no basis. If you want to use the term correctly, you should talk about the Pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Aegean.

The idea that the Albanians have something to do with the Pelasgians is entirely a confabulation from the 19th and 20th centuries.



Jeez. Whoever claimed that was a complete crank, because its in complete ignorance of archaeology and linguistics... :vomitting:

- Sumerian is an isolate language.
- Urbanization and agriculture in the Near East and Egypt is older than in Europe. Archaeology does not lie there.
- Literacy in Mesopotamia (Cuneiform) and Egypt (hieroglyphs) is older than in Europe (Linear A would be the oldest true European writing), again.

Greek historians wrote about Pellasgians for 15 hundred years. If you are curious, there is on Wikipedia some sources where you have to look. The idea is that Pellasgians were among the first inhabitants of the Balkans, Anatolia and Italic peninsula.Just google Pellasgians. There is linguistic evidence for this claim. Since its accepted that the ice age inhabitants of Europe were I1 and I2 people it makes sense that Pellasgians were one of them.
Albanian claim is that we might have inherited more than others linguistically and genetically from Pellasgians, but not that we are Pellasgians. Pellasgians eventually were Hellenized, Illyrianized or Romanized.
I don't know if if this makes sense to you?

Yetos
19-10-14, 15:16
Expansion of E-V13 explained

by Dienekes

http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html


an article about EV-13 expansion in Balkans,

It is too young and to consider it Pelasgian,


G2 and J2 are considered older in Balkans than R1 (except the R1a but only if we consider it as homeland, and not sink phainomenon, and only in theoritical possibility)
I1 in Greece has been studied and is found paleolithic and belongs to same 'rare' category as Sardinians and Basques.


Besides in Homer's Iliad we also see about Ethiopians fight with Myceneans

Taranis
19-10-14, 15:42
Greek historians wrote about Pellasgians for 15 hundred years. If you are curious, there is on Wikipedia some sources where you have to look. The idea is that Pellasgians were among the first inhabitants of the Balkans, Anatolia and Italic peninsula.Just google Pellasgians. There is linguistic evidence for this claim. Since its accepted that the ice age inhabitants of Europe were I1 and I2 people it makes sense that Pellasgians were one of them.

Albanian claim is that we might have inherited more than others linguistically and genetically from Pellasgians, but not that we are Pellasgians. Pellasgians eventually were Hellenized, Illyrianized or Romanized.
I don't know if if this makes sense to you?

I'm trying to tell you that this makes no sense. You are taking way too many things for granted beforehand which is not only speculative but actually known to be wrong, and you're mixing up a number of concepts that are unrelated:

1) the ancient Greek authors (eg. Homer) talk about the Pelasgians as an ethnic group (partially the ancestors of the Greeks) or a vaguely-defined geographical term (usually relating to the Aegean).

2) the term "Pelasgian" has been used by some linguists in the past for a substrate language in Greek. I personally prefer to say "pre-Greek", because I do not think that there was "one" Pelasgian language but different ones that were - from the appearance of it (ie. Minoan, Lemnian).

3) there is no evidence whatsoever for a connection between the modern Albanian language and any one these pre-Greek languages, and there is no common linguistic substrate in Greek and Albanian. In Greek, yes, there are words not derived from Proto-Indo-European (Greek uniquely has a number of old Semitic loanwords, for example), but not with Albanian. By its evolution from Proto-Indo-European, Albanian is also much different from Greek: in its phonetic evolution, Albanian has much more in common with the northern branches of Indo-European (Germanic and Balto-Slavic) than with Greek.

The trope that "Pelasgians were first inhabitants of the Balkans" is, in my opinion, completely unfounded. It only makes sense if you ad-hoc define the neolithic inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" (without actually caring where the term comes from or what it means :rolleyes: ) and go from there.

The modern inhabitants of the Balkans (including the Albanians), no doubt, have a partial ancestry in the Neolithic population of that area, but please, lets keep the term "Pelasgian" out of that discussion.

King Bardhyl
19-10-14, 17:08
The Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with the Pelasgians

How'd you to that conclusion? What is the information you have for the Neolithic and Eneolithic period in Albania?


And to ad-hoc label the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" has absolutely no basis. If you want to use the term correctly, you should talk about the Pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Aegean.

The beginning of the formation of communities with populations of ethnic traits is an evolutionary process, long and complicated, which belongs to the Neolithic (New Stone) and Eneolithic era (copper). As time span these eras capture millennium period between the seventh and fourth millennium B.C.
In these two era major and essential, changes occurred, without knowledge of which can not here understand that originated the process of formation of peoples and languages ​​of the Balkan Peninsula.
And to understand these qualitative changes the only sources are of archaeological evidence, coming from the territory of Eastern Europe, including the Aegean and Anatolia (Turkey's western coasts). Therefore it is necessary to become acquainted with these discoveries.
Many are the data from the territory of Albania and the Albanian territories. With intensive research of the past 50 years, made to the cultures of the time of Neolithic and copper is achieved major representative of recognized cultures, their characteristics and peculiarities of the development level from one period to another. Early Neolithic culture in Albania is represented by the Vlushta (Korce), the Podgories (Korce), the Kolshi (Kukes); Middle Neolithic culture of Dunavec (Korce) of Cakran (Fier) and Blazin (Mat), while the late Neolithic culture represented by Maliq I Barç I (Korce) and Kamnikut (Cologne). (Prendi, F. 1976, 21-99; Korkuti, M. 1995, 11-261). These are representative of the Neolithic cultures of Albania, which show a dense housing (for the time) and geographic reach that covers almost the entire territory. Starting from the earliest cultures Vlushta (seventh millennium B.C.) until to Maliq I, has a residential consistently demonstrates a sedentary life, which was conditioned from birth and development of agriculture and livestock, two basic branches economy and interdependent on each other since their birth. In some settlements (Podgorie, Dunavec, Maliq, Cakran, etc.) took priority to agriculture, which made possible the establishment of reserves for living based products, and consequently, significant changes occurred in the social life. For this reason, these new aspects of Neolithic and Eneolithic some scholars have termed as "agricultural revolution".

Continuity of life and culture finds its expression primarily in the technology of preparation of earthen vessels, as well as the addition of large working tools of flint, stone and bones and all about perfecting the technique in their paper, proven these rich collections of work tools and the multitude of vessels of clay, found in Podgorie, Dunavec, Maliq etc..
Important new feature of this era was the begining rate relationships, not only between neighboring communities, but also between remote communities, as evidenced by import objects from backgrounds genuine culture of Thessaly (Greece), found these in Dunavec the Cakran (Korkuti, M. Andrea, Zh. 1974). These swaps, which were the initial however, show that our Neolithic cultures have not been closed, isolated, but have given the deal with each other. Conversely, in one of the capitals of the Neolithic cultures of Thessaly, on the acropolis of Diminit found objects imported from Dunavec culture. (Korkuti M. 1995.127)
The Neolithic cultures in Albania are referred to the construction of wooden frame housing, fence walls, smeared with mud. But the most difficult buildings were wooden huts, raised on the water, such as the remarkable waterlogged residence (on stakes) of Dunavec, which nowadays is the earliest in the Balkans (the middle of the fifth millennium Pesona. According to analysis laboratory carbon (C14) this settlement dates in 4800 B.C.

Indoeuropeanisation Western Balkan territory became part of the overall process of the whole Balkan indoeuropeanized, so this problem will be referred to, firstly, to the conclusions reached. They can be summarized in these views more representative.

- Most of Albanian and foreign archaeologists the indoeuropeanisation of South East Europe see as a long process that took place as a result of several waves of invasions nomadic neighbors, come from the steppes of Asia in the third millennium B.C.

A variant of this view, constitutes another thesis according to which non-Indo-European population, of the Mediterranean, Neolithic and Eneolithic was indoeuropeanisate during the large influx of pastoral peoples, who came from the steppes in the early Bronze Age.
However, when we think about the implications of this process, we should note that the movement of the peoples of the steppe has been strongest in the eastern territories of the Balkan Peninsula and less in the regions of West Balcan, which constituted the terminal ends of the extent of this influx, the role of symbiosis of the immigrant's with the local population may not be the same as in the eastern Balkan territories.
The first record for the label of this population will find older authors of ancient Greece, Homer, Hesiod, Herodotus and to over 100 other authors, Greek and Latin, who speak for the Pelasgians as a population not Greek. (In order to complete these data are found in the work of Fr.Lochner-Hüttenboch, Die Pelasger). Homer mentions the Pelasgians as the inhabitants of Thessaly, Crete; younger writers as Hesiod, Herodotus, Hecataeus, Thucydides, give us other releases, placing Pelasgians once in in Peloponnesus , once in Asia Minor and once in Italy, and their language, Pelasgian, call barbaric languages ​​ie . not Greek.

From the viewpoints of scholars of the twentieth century can mention those of some linguists, as M.Budimir, V.Georgiev, Fr.Lochner -Hüttenbach, G, Bonfante etc.., Who expressed the opinion that there is a connection between the language of this population pregreek Mediterranean ancient languages ​​of the Balkans later, as thracian and illyrian. Other researchers, like B.Gavela, the pellazgic substrate of Balkan-Aegean region pose as an Indo-European indigenous determine from the geographical and cultural point of view (Gavela, B. 1971.24). On the basis of these studies can be said that the Pelasgians are a population that has resided in Eastern Europe, the Mediterranean and Asia Minor before the formation of the Greek ethnos and that their language is Indo-European and is not related to the Greek.

So, in few words these are the pelasgian and their presence in Western Balcan.

albanopolis
19-10-14, 17:12
I'm trying to tell you that this makes no sense. You are taking way too many things for granted beforehand which is not only speculative but actually known to be wrong, and you're mixing up a number of concepts that are unrelated:

1) the ancient Greek authors (eg. Homer) talk about the Pelasgians as an ethnic group (partially the ancestors of the Greeks) or a vaguely-defined geographical term (usually relating to the Aegean).

2) the term "Pelasgian" has been used by some linguists in the past for a substrate language in Greek. I personally prefer to say "pre-Greek", because I do not think that there was "one" Pelasgian language but different ones that were - from the appearance of it (ie. Minoan, Lemnian).

3) there is no evidence whatsoever for a connection between the modern Albanian language and any one these pre-Greek languages, and there is no common linguistic substrate in Greek and Albanian. In Greek, yes, there are words not derived from Proto-Indo-European (Greek uniquely has a number of old Semitic loanwords, for example), but not with Albanian. By its evolution from Proto-Indo-European, Albanian is also much different from Greek: in its phonetic evolution, Albanian has much more in common with the northern branches of Indo-European (Germanic and Balto-Slavic) than with Greek.

The trope that "Pelasgians were first inhabitants of the Balkans" is, in my opinion, completely unfounded. It only makes sense if you ad-hoc define the neolithic inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" (without actually caring where the term comes from or what it means :rolleyes: ) and go from there.

The modern inhabitants of the Balkans (including the Albanians), no doubt, have a partial ancestry in the Neolithic population of that area, but please, lets keep the term "Pelasgian" out of that discussion.
Greek authors made clear that Pellasgians spoke different language. Sometimes they switched to Greek. Greek historians were boasting with pride that Hellens never switched their language. Homer is just one writer who mentioned them. There are about ten others who also mentioned them. It appears that Pellazgs were not a uniform ethnic group. According to the writings they too spoke different languages in different regions. Its not clear how related their languages were.
Since no special ability were mentioned about them we suppose that their culture was not in the Hellenic level.

King Bardhyl
19-10-14, 17:38
I want to explain the albanian member that the person who had created this site:
http://www.greeks-albanians.com/eng-m-home
He is an IDIOT, read Albanian police and court chronicles.
The albanian language is not linked with the greek language. The Albanian language is an Indo-European language create a branch by itself, sharing its branch with no other extant language.Some Italian researchers (Alberto Areddu Salvatore (Bovore) Mele ) etc, connect Albanian language with Paleosardiniane specially with ancient Sardinia, with isolated areas of Ogliastra and Barbagia.

Someone as example Zacharie Mayani connect Albanian with Etruscan Les Etrusques commencent a parler (The Etruscans Begin to Speak). Other like French scolar Robert d`Angely connect albanian with Pelasgians
http://www.pelasg.org/robert_dangely_enigma_en.html


The position of linguists, historians and albanolog (Albanian and foreign) is that albanian are the descendants of the illyrian .
So this theory of "linguist-ethnologist, clinical nutritionist and author Marios Dimopoulos about the Greek-Pelasgian (Greek-Albanian) civilization, the ancient Greek philosophical view of the world and the creation of a new Hellenic (Greek-Albanian) superstate in Balkan." is a foolish.
According to Aristir Kola :" there is no greek that don`t have an albanian grandparents." But he refers to modern greeks.
There is an immutable constant in movement of the population in the Balkans, permanently from the mountains of southern Albania (Epirus), large or small groups of higlanders who descended below on areas of Greece.This phenomenon recorded since ancient times ( Epirotes i.e Illyrians to Thessaly, etc) until nowadays.
These populations are known in the Middle Ages (when there are more accurate records and when this movement peaked) with the name of Arvanites, i.e Albanians.
This movement waned during the twentieth century, reaching a minimum during communism, to be exploded after the fall of communism. Today in Greece there are about one million Albanian. There is not any Albanian who was not once in Greece.

Angela
19-10-14, 18:00
Yetos;442118]Expansion of E-V13 explained

by Dienekes

http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html


You are confusing when a "Y" lineage underwent a major expansion, and when it might have first appeared in an area.


It is too young and to consider it Pelasgian,

You are apparently using the term "Pelasgian" to refer to the Neolithic inhabitants of the Balkans, which would be a case of inaccurate attribution of the term. If you want to refer to the Neolithic inhabitants (with whatever WHG they had incorporated), then you should do so.

E-V13 is indeed not too young for the Neolithic in Europe. We've already found it in that context. We haven't yet found it in Neolithic Greece or the Balkans, but it would hardly be surprising since the Cardial migration path went from there to the western Mediterranean.



G2 and J2 are considered older in Balkans than R1 (except the R1a but only if we consider it as homeland, and not sink phainomenon, and only in theoritical possibility)
I1 in Greece has been studied and is found paleolithic and belongs to same 'rare' category as Sardinians and Basques.

Just who is doing this considering? We have yet to find a single ancient J2 sample (i.e.)Neolithic or before anywhere in Europe, so such pronouncements are misplaced.

Who on earth is saying that the R1a homeland is in the Balkans?

Based on the ancient samples so far found in Europe, only the "I" and "C" y dna groups are older than the Neolithic.

Please post relevant scientific papers for your assertions, and when you do post them, please do not change their meaning.



Besides in Homer's Iliad we also see about Ethiopians fight with Myceneans

I fail to see the significance of this statement whatsoever.

Taranis
19-10-14, 18:12
How'd you to that conclusion? What is the information you have for the Neolithic and Eneolithic period in Albania?

In my opinion, its too much of a leap to label Neolithic inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians".

Lets put the archeology of the Neolithic for a moment to the side and look at the linguistic perspective: if the "Pelasgian" hypothesis (that "there is a common substrate of an ancient language on the Balkans") was true, then you'd find a lexicon of common Albanian and Greek words that are shifted according to the respective sound laws. In another thread over in linguistics (this really doesn't belong here in genetics, in my opinion), Kentel and I recently had a discussion (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30527-Etruscan-and-Germanic?p=441765&viewfull=1#post441765) which included common items found in the Celtic and Germanic languages (not elsewhere) which may be 'shared inheritances'. Such "shared inheritances" do to my knowledge not exist for Greek and Albanian (they are in fact, very different Indo-European branches).

We do have non-Indo-European languages attested from the Aegean (e.g. Minoan and Lemnian, and I said there may have been others), and you might label these languages as "Pelasgian" (which I don't perceive as a particularly smart move, because they have nothing in common), but there is no evidence that would tie these to the area of Albania, or to the Albanian language.

Maleth
19-10-14, 18:30
E-v13 is quite rare anywhere in Italy.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

are you sure its so rare?

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28660-Distribution-of-E1b1b-subclades-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29

and according to the Eupidia Map it reaches 10 to 20% in Genoa, Abruzzo, Veneto, Apulia and Central Sicily
(http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28660-Distribution-of-E1b1b-subclades-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29)

joeyc
19-10-14, 18:40
are you sure its so rare?

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28660-Distribution-of-E1b1b-subclades-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29

The average frequency for the E-V13 haplogroup is between 5 and 10%, with few hot spots. Germany and most of Central Eastern Europe follows a similar pattern.

Angela
19-10-14, 18:49
are you sure its so rare?

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28660-Distribution-of-E1b1b-subclades-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29

You took the words, or rather the "map", right out of my mouth. :)

My U2e mtDna is 1% in most countries, rising to a maximum of 2% in the "hotspots". That's rare. A haplogroup with frequencies in Italy in the 5-10% range, with some areas having 15%, does not make it "quite rare" in Italy.

If people could keep agendas of one type or another out of genetics discussions, it would be quite helpful.

Maleth
19-10-14, 19:14
You took the words, or rather the "map", right out of my mouth. :)

My U2e mtDna is 1% in most countries, rising to a maximum of 2% in the "hotspots". That's rare. A haplogroup with frequencies in Italy in the 5-10% range, with some areas having 15%, does not make it "quite rare" in Italy.

If people could keep agendas of one type or another out of genetics discussions, it would be quite helpful.

Indeed. Also we seem to forget that we have Mtdna's and Grandfathers and Grand Mothers and Great grand fathers and Great grand mothers and so on who probably belong to different haplogroups and have injected their dna to the wonderful homosapiens we are today :).

Yetos
19-10-14, 19:25
how'd you to that conclusion? What is the information you have for the neolithic and eneolithic period in albania?

so, in few words these are the pelasgian and their presence in western balcan.


you are confusing Kadmeians and PHOENICIA of Illyros
with aegean, minor asian Pelasgians


There is no connection among them
except the Pyrgi tablets

Yetos
19-10-14, 19:30
I want to explain the albanian member that the person who had created this site:
http://www.greeks-albanians.com/eng-m-home
He is an IDIOT, read Albanian police and court chronicles.
The albanian language is not linked with the greek language. The Albanian language is an Indo-European language create a branch by itself, sharing its branch with no other extant language.Some Italian researchers (Alberto Areddu Salvatore (Bovore) Mele ) etc, connect Albanian language with Paleosardiniane specially with ancient Sardinia, with isolated areas of Ogliastra and Barbagia.

Someone as example Zacharie Mayani connect Albanian with Etruscan Les Etrusques commencent a parler (The Etruscans Begin to Speak). Other like French scolar Robert d`Angely connect albanian with Pelasgians
http://www.pelasg.org/robert_dangely_enigma_en.html


The position of linguists, historians and albanolog (Albanian and foreign) is that albanian are the descendants of the illyrian .
So this theory of "linguist-ethnologist, clinical nutritionist and author Marios Dimopoulos about the Greek-Pelasgian (Greek-Albanian) civilization, the ancient Greek philosophical view of the world and the creation of a new Hellenic (Greek-Albanian) superstate in Balkan." is a foolish.
According to Aristir Kola :" there is no greek that don`t have an albanian grandparents." But he refers to modern greeks.
There is an immutable constant in movement of the population in the Balkans, permanently from the mountains of southern Albania (Epirus), large or small groups of higlanders who descended below on areas of Greece.This phenomenon recorded since ancient times ( Epirotes i.e Illyrians to Thessaly, etc) until nowadays.
These populations are known in the Middle Ages (when there are more accurate records and when this movement peaked) with the name of Arvanites, i.e Albanians.
This movement waned during the twentieth century, reaching a minimum during communism, to be exploded after the fall of communism. Today in Greece there are about one million Albanian. There is not any Albanian who was not once in Greece.


and others like Gatepano connect Albanian with Egyptian,
and others like A Kollas connect Albanian with Greco-Aryan
and others like Rassuli connect it with East Balkans,






WHEN YOU DECIDE WITH WHOM YOU ARE CONNECTED?


besides Arbanites were according census of 1876 about 54 000 and estimated by global organisations as almost the same today,
A kolla wrote bullshit, he was a lawer that wanted to play it as linguist,
for example he wrote that Albanians are pure Greeks and Greeks are not,
and to confirm that he wrote words to compare like door

english door
Alb Dera
Anc Greek Θυρα
modern Greek Πορτα (used for house doors, for big doors word Πυλη, and for bigger doors central and outer is Θυρα)
etc etc

THE ONLY HE PROVED BY HIS METHOD IS THAT ALBANIAN IS NOT A SOUTH BALKANIC LANGUAGE BUT A NORTH EAST BALKAN LANGUAGE

cause Dera fits to IE aspirations of Door, a Germano-Slavic,

not with Homeric Θυρα neither with Romano-celtic Port,

so A Kolla in his mind believed that Albanians are ancient Greeks,
but he proved that Albanian IF IS NOT A CREOLE LANGUAGE, is from EAST AND NORTH and possibly away from balkans.

he made a significant work, but with wrong believes,
in fact his work proves the oposite, that is why all linguists laugh with him.

besides soon we might have Georgiev's entire work,
wich after Duridanov is a remarkable work in Balkanic languages.

bicicleur
19-10-14, 19:38
Expansion of E-V13 explained

by Dienekes

http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html


an article about EV-13 expansion in Balkans,

It is too young and to consider it Pelasgian,


G2 and J2 are considered older in Balkans than R1 (except the R1a but only if we consider it as homeland, and not sink phainomenon, and only in theoritical possibility)
I1 in Greece has been studied and is found paleolithic and belongs to same 'rare' category as Sardinians and Basques.


Besides in Homer's Iliad we also see about Ethiopians fight with Myceneans

the article is 6 years old
even today there are no reliable expansion dates for Y-DNA
I hope some day soon they'll be able to compare the full genome of a very old and well-dated skeleton with a dataset of present-day full genomes, and use the age of the skeleton for calibration
and even then, who says all SNP's in the Y-DNA have the same mutation rate?

recently neolithic 8000 year old I1 has been found
I don't think it matches nordtvedts 4500 year old expansion time, unless the neolithic 8000 year old I1 got extinct or it waited another 3500 years for expansion

sorry to be off-topic here

joeyc
19-10-14, 19:44
You took the words, or rather the "map", right out of my mouth. :)

My U2e mtDna is 1% in most countries, rising to a maximum of 2% in the "hotspots". That's rare. A haplogroup with frequencies in Italy in the 5-10% range, with some areas having 15%, does not make it "quite rare" in Italy.

If people could keep agendas of one type or another out of genetics discussions, it would be quite helpful.

Of course it's relative to other countries. Nearly 50% of North Albanians carry the E-V13 haplogroup for example.

Sile
19-10-14, 19:54
I have only read that the pelasgians origins are in thessally, they tried to expand south but where stopped by the pre-boetians, they tried to go west and where stoppe dby pre-epirotes and so they headed to modern istanbul ............same place that herodous places them

thessally was the landing place for people who came from anatolia,

Maleth
19-10-14, 19:55
Subject closed. New evidence :cool-v::cool-v::cool-v:

6772My foot 6773Zeus foot at Athens archeological museum

:grin:

Sile
19-10-14, 19:57
Subject closed. New evidence :cool-v::cool-v::cool-v:

6772My foot 6773Zeus foot at Athens archeological museum

:grin:

looks greek to me,

Garrick
19-10-14, 20:17
and others like Gatepano connect Albanian with Egyptian,
and others like A Kollas connect Albanian with Greco-Aryan
and others like Rassuli connect it with East Balkans,






WHEN YOU DECIDE WITH WHOM YOU ARE CONNECTED?


besides Arbanites were according census of 1876 about 54 000 and estimated by global organisations as almost the same today,
A kolla wrote bullshit, he was a lawer that wanted to play it as linguist,
for example he wrote that Albanians are pure Greeks and Greeks are not,
and to confirm that he wrote words to compare like door

english door
Alb Dera
Anc Greek Θυρα
modern Greek Πορτα (used for house doors, for big doors word Πυλη, and for bigger doors central and outer is Θυρα)
etc etc

THE ONLY HE PROVED BY HIS METHOD IS THAT ALBANIAN IS NOT A SOUTH BALKANIC LANGUAGE BUT A NORTH EAST BALKAN LANGUAGE

cause Dera fits to IE aspirations of Door, a Germano-Slavic,

not with Homeric Θυρα neither with Romano-celtic Port,

so A Kolla in his mind believed that Albanians are ancient Greeks,
but he proved that Albanian IF IS NOT A CREOLE LANGUAGE, is from EAST AND NORTH and possibly away from balkans.

he made a significant work, but with wrong believes,
in fact his work proves the oposite, that is why all linguists laugh with him.

besides soon we might have Georgiev's entire work,
wich after Duridanov is a remarkable work in Balkanic languages.

Georgiev gives very strong arguments about link Albanians with Dacians, i.e. Romanians (not necessarily nationaly but geographicaly), which indicate that Albanians originate somewhere from Romania.

According Georgiev Albanian has no link with Illyiran, and Illyrians are not ancestors of Albanians.

Of course, Pelasgian nothing to do with Albanian.

(Certainly Pelasgian and Illyrian has no link, completely different).

Georgiev argues:

1) Illyrian toponims from antiquty are completely different from Albanian phonetic laws;

2) Ancient Latin loanwords in Albanian have phonetic form from Latin East Balkan (proto-Romanian) and no from West Balkan Latin (for example they have no link with Old Dalmatian);

3) Marine terms in Albanian is borrowed from different languages suggesting that Albanians were not coastal people;

4) Very few Ancient Greek loanwords exist in Albanian, it means that Albanians and Greeks have no link;

5) There is no reference in any source about Albanian in today areas before Middle Age;

6) Hundred and hundred Romanian words are similar only to Albanian words, and if someone combines this with similar Latin words in Albanian and Romanian, he or she can give conclusion that Albanians originate from some areas of today Romania.

These arguments are serious and they cannot simply be dismissed, but Albanian scientists often dismisse it, in favor Illyrian link, for they have nothing to prove, on the contrary, Illyrian was CENTUM and Albanian is SATEM.

Processed from the book: Early Medieval Balkans, University of Michigan Press, Fine J. V. A.

Angela
19-10-14, 20:44
Subject closed. New evidence :cool-v::cool-v::cool-v:

6772My foot 6773Zeus foot at Athens archeological museum.

:grin:


MY LONG LOST BROTHER! No...wait, my first two toes are about the same length. I hate to break this to you Mateth, but my feet are definitely a better match for those of Zeus.(Well, his feet may be rather flat.) But wait again, I thought I had a Greek nose, but the toes were Roman!

This site is seriously upsetting me and my sense of ethnic identity.

For anyone who might think to be rude and complain, this is just about and perhaps more scientific than most of the posts on this thread.

Maleth
19-10-14, 21:09
looks greek to me,

Thats what they say, unless its morton toe they used to consider as a disorder .....but not anymore I think :)

Maleth
19-10-14, 21:16
MY LONG LOST BROTHER! No...wait, my first two toes are about the same length. I hate to break this to you Mateth, but my feet are definitely a better match for those of Zeus.(Well, his feet may be rather flat.) But wait again, I thought I had a Greek nose, but the toes were Roman!

This site is seriously upsetting me and my sense of ethnic identity.

For anyone who might think to be rude and complain, this is just about and perhaps more scientific than most of the posts on this thread.

HELLO SISTA.....I Promise Im not going to compare any other body parts with Zeus :shocked: Thats a great piece of art especially for that era.:rolleyes2:

King Bardhyl
19-10-14, 21:19
Georgiev gives very strong arguments about link Albanians with Dacians, i.e. Romanians (not necessarily nationaly but geographicaly), which indicate that Albanians originate somewhere from Romania.

According Georgiev Albanian has no link with Illyiran, and Illyrians are not ancestors of Albanians.

Of course, Pelasgian nothing to do with Albanian.

(Certainly Pelasgian and Illyrian has no link, completely different).

Georgiev argues:

1) Illyrian toponims from antiquty are completely different from Albanian phonetic laws;

2) Ancient Latin loanwords in Albanian have phonetic form from Latin East Balkan (proto-Romanian) and no from West Balkan Latin (for example they have no link with Old Dalmatian);

3) Marine terms in Albanian is borrowed from different languages suggesting that Albanians were not coastal people;

4) Very few Ancient Greek loanwords exist in Albanian, it means that Albanians and Greeks have no link;

5) There is no reference in any source about Albanian in today areas before Middle Age;

6) Hundred and hundred Romanian words are similar only to Albanian words, and if someone combines this with similar Latin words in Albanian and Romanian, he or she can give conclusion that Albanians originate from some areas of today Romania.

These arguments are serious and they cannot simply be dismissed, but Albanian scientists often dismisse it, in favor Illyrian link, for they have nothing to prove, on the contrary, Illyrian was CENTUM and Albanian is SATEM.

Processed from the book: Early Medieval Balkans, University of Michigan Press, Fine J. V. A.

I think you are a little off-topic, and your theory is wrong.

Yetos
19-10-14, 22:03
I have only read that the pelasgians origins are in thessally, they tried to expand south but where stopped by the pre-boetians, they tried to go west and where stoppe dby pre-epirotes and so they headed to modern istanbul ............same place that herodous places them

thessally was the landing place for people who came from anatolia,



that is part of the knowledge we have,

we also know that Athens was inhabited by Pelasgians,
thoukidides recogn the thyrrenians as pre-Greek athenean language,
we know the pre-Greek connection of Athens with Minoans,
and we know that did not participate in troyan war,
and main of all we know that Attica Orchomenos etc is a pelasgian language.
Herodotos describe Ionians mostly as the Εθνος πελασγικον,
we know that Phokaeis and pelasgians lived beside each other,
we know that island of Lemnos village of Καμινια Caminia was inhabited by Etruscans, who tend to move west,
and pelasgian mostly occupy the North part of Aeagean, as you already said, the Pelasgian Argos, that is why some connect it with Troyans and Arzawa/Assuwa if the last were not IE speakers, while south was eteo-cretans, but both had connection with minor Asia and Attica,
that is why tend to speak about eteo-cretans as relatives of pelasgians,

Garrick
19-10-14, 22:31
I think you are a little off-topic, and your theory is wrong.

You can be precise, it is not my theory, it is Georgiev theory, this scientist set it based on extensive research.

It has link with topic to avoid unnecessary confusion about connections between the present and the past that does not exist.

King Bardhyl
19-10-14, 22:37
You can be precise, it is not my theory, it is Georgiev theory, this scientist set it based on extensive research.

It has link with topic to avoid unnecessary confusion about connections between the present and the past that does not exist.

There is no unnecessary confusion, you have to be sure, evrything is clear.


P.S.
BTW, did you speak with your teacher of history?

Yetos
19-10-14, 23:04
There is no unnecessary confusion, you have to be sure, evrything is clear.


P.S.
BTW, did you speak with your teacher of history?



question,


are you a teacher of history?

Sile
20-10-14, 19:49
that is part of the knowledge we have,

we also know that Athens was inhabited by Pelasgians,
thoukidides recogn the thyrrenians as pre-Greek athenean language,
we know the pre-Greek connection of Athens with Minoans,
and we know that did not participate in troyan war,
and main of all we know that Attica Orchomenos etc is a pelasgian language.
Herodotos describe Ionians mostly as the Εθνος πελασγικον,
we know that Phokaeis and pelasgians lived beside each other,
we know that island of Lemnos village of Καμινια Caminia was inhabited by Etruscans, who tend to move west,
and pelasgian mostly occupy the North part of Aeagean, as you already said, the Pelasgian Argos, that is why some connect it with Troyans and Arzawa/Assuwa if the last were not IE speakers, while south was eteo-cretans, but both had connection with minor Asia and Attica,
that is why tend to speak about eteo-cretans as relatives of pelasgians,

it would seem to me that the pelasgians where later replaced by the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians

noUseForAname
21-10-14, 03:54
This obsession with Pelasgians is very misplaced, in my opinion. This is just a word used by Greeks for certain groups of non-Greeks. They didn't know about ydna and didn't carry around spit containers to test it. No doubt the "Pelasgians" they came across were very EEF people of various yDna and mtDna combinations in different proportions depending on the group.

As we know for certain that the Pelasgians were the inhabitants living in those regions before the Ancient Greece period, then my point was that their major DNA could be E-V13, because as of today the Greek speaking and Albanian speaking regions have the highest percentage of E-V13.

It is also argued that greek and Albanian languages are 5,000 years old...here are the recent research papers...

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htm

I will also post a Pelasgian transcripts with a translated Albanian language.

noUseForAname
21-10-14, 05:03
http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Maleth http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=442160#post442160)
Subject closed. New evidence http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/cool-v.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/cool-v.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/cool-v.gif

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6772&d=1413740103&thumb=1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6772&d=1413740841)My foot http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6773&d=1413739952&thumb=1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6773&d=1413740986)Zeus foot at Athens archeological museum

http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.png

Haha Maleth, a very nice idea actually, i recently saw those things online...

You have done your test right?.... i see it said E-V13...

I also saw other ancient greeks statue foots and they looked the same....

Would that mean that that specific foot is E-V13?

Anyone who has done the test please take a pic...I havent done the test yet though...

Maleth
21-10-14, 18:30
http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Maleth http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=442160#post442160)
Subject closed. New evidence http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/cool-v.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/cool-v.gifhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/cool-v.gif

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6772&d=1413740103&thumb=1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6772&d=1413740841)My foot http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6773&d=1413739952&thumb=1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6773&d=1413740986)Zeus foot at Athens archeological museum

http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.png

Haha Maleth, a very nice idea actually, i recently saw those things online...

You have done your test right?.... i see it said E-V13...

I also saw other ancient greeks statue foots and they looked the same....

Would that mean that that specific foot is E-V13?

Anyone who has done the test please take a pic...I havent done the test yet though...

I only learned about this by a thread someone started here some time ago, which I thought was funny :smile:.....But its true they call it Greek foot because nearly all statues in Greece have this kind of foot. Even statue of Liberty in New york has it :). I don't believe it would be something just reserved to E-V13's that could be inherited to anyone from one side or other of the family.....maybe would be more prevalent if there is some e-v13 in the mix? Don't know.

I read (if true, not sure) that Spartans used to choose this kind of foot for athletics as it had some kind of benefits. Maybe that has something to do why so many Greek statues have it.

Angela
21-10-14, 19:49
I only learned about this by a thread someone started here some time ago, which I thought was funny :smile:.....But its true they call it Greek foot because nearly all statues in Greece have this kind of foot. Even statue of Liberty in New york has it :). I don't believe it would be something just reserved to E-V13's that could be inherited to anyone from one side or other of the family.....maybe would be more prevalent if there is some e-v13 in the mix? Don't know.

I read (if true, not sure) that Spartans used to choose this kind of foot for athletics as it had some kind of benefits. Maybe that has something to do why so many Greek statues have it.

For a joke I tried to send you a PM with a picture of my feet so you could tell me if I'm pure or admixed.:laughing::laughing::laughing: Unfortunately, unlike the regular board, the PM system doesn't seem to let you upload from your computer...at least I couldn't figure out how to do it, which is, of course, a very different thing. :smile:

Angela
21-10-14, 19:57
Sorry, double post.

Maleth
21-10-14, 20:37
For a joke I tried to send you a PM with a picture of my feet so you could tell me if I'm pure or admixed.:laughing::laughing::laughing: Unfortunately, unlike the regular board, the PM system doesn't seem to let you upload from your computer...at least I couldn't figure out how to do it, which is, of course, a very different thing. :smile:

Okie dokie, Angela. Feet can help :good_job: BUT I would also please need nose pic (sides please and no cheating), hair texture and measurement between ears and top of head to chin. Then we can start a full analysis. I am also pleased to inform you that it will be possible to find out if you come from a clan of warrior women or just enjoyed spending the day cooking :satisfied: :smile:

motzart
22-10-14, 02:53
I think it is a lost cause to try to associate a Y DNA haplogroup to Pelasgians. By the Mycenaean era in Greece every single major European Y DNA lineage had been there for a thousand years or more.

Angela
22-10-14, 06:55
Okie dokie, Angela. Feet can help :good_job: BUT I would also please need nose pic (sides please and no cheating), hair texture and measurement between ears and top of head to chin. Then we can start a full analysis. I am also pleased to inform you that it will be possible to find out if you come from a clan of warrior women or just enjoyed spending the day cooking :satisfied: :smile:


Unfortunately, as I said, I can't seem to PM pictures from my computer. http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/sad-2.gif As for the rest, I have been feeling rather Amazon-like lately, in a Renaissance sort of way, like Caterina Sforza, perhaps, besieged by Cesare Borgia...(who met a most deserved if untimely end) and sundry others throughout her life. I would never be so power mad, or unfeeling, however, or vulgar for that matter...so, maybe Isabella D'Este? I would love to be even the palest imitation of her.

Then, of course, I don't have legions of servants and retainers. We 're expected to do it all nowadays, career, home, children, husband...
Just call me.... W O M A N...just no lard from the can of drippings...horrors!http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/petrified.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWFhlVvYOno:laughing::laughing:

Maleth
24-10-14, 09:54
Then, of course, I don't have legions of servants and retainers. We 're expected to do it all nowadays, career, home, children, husband...
Just call me.... W O M A N...just no lard from the can of drippings...horrors!http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/petrified.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWFhlVvYOno:laughing::laughing:

Okie Dokie, research cancelled, until later. And I have to say thanks to the Palasgians and Zeus foot I have discovered Peggy Lee, more kick back music with a good glass of red wine. Thank you for posting :good_job::laughing:

noUseForAname
29-10-14, 05:26
Originally Posted by Taranis http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=442113#post442113)
Did the ancient Greeks have their DNA tested and then wrote down their results? I don't think so.

Absolutely wrong. The Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with the Pelasgians: there is no common substrate in Greek and Albanian (in that case, you might argue for ). And to ad-hoc label the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" has absolutely no basis. If you want to use the term correctly, you should talk about the Pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Aegean.

The idea that the Albanians have something to do with the Pelasgians is entirely a confabulation from the 19th and 20th centuries.
Jeez. Whoever claimed that was a complete crank, because its in complete ignorance of archaeology and linguistics... http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/vomitting.gif

- Sumerian is an isolate language.
- Urbanization and agriculture in the Near East and Egypt is older than in Europe. Archaeology does not lie there.
- Literacy in Mesopotamia (Cuneiform) and Egypt (hieroglyphs) is older than in Europe (Linear A would be the oldest true European writing), again.


noUseForAname (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/49032-noUseForAname)

FYI, my intention is to find dna links, and this is nothing related to nationalities.

Hopefully we will soon have ancient greeks dna, and i am suspecting that it might be E-V13 because in those areas it is with its highest percentage in the world...

Of course there is a common substrate of greeks and albanians, (still referring to dna not history), just look at the dna percentage...E-V13 is almost the same, and this is a FACT, so call them pelazgian or some other tribes, E-V13 looks like its NATIVE at least for some thousands of years...

As for civilizations, you are right, but i was still referring and trying to make sense with dna links and not what we know through history...

what about the bosnian pyramid that is argued to be 20,000 years old....predating Giza and so one?...

6800

noUseForAname
29-10-14, 05:52
motzart (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/48537-motzart)

I think it is a lost cause to try to associate a Y DNA haplogroup to Pelasgians. By the Mycenaean era in Greece every single major European Y DNA lineage had been there for a thousand years or more.

You are correct, however we are trying to maybe determine which particular y dna was with highest percentage (of course thers mixture everywhere)...as with R1b at celts....so to E-V13 to Ancient greeks or to native pre greek inhabitants....

noUseForAname
29-10-14, 06:10
What can we say we really know about history and civilizations?...well it seems not a lot...
20,000 years pyramid and its oldest in the world found in Europe....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pf5-0FhGY4

LeBrok
29-10-14, 08:04
What can we say we really know about history and civilizations?...well it seems not a lot...
20,000 years pyramid and its oldest in the world found in Europe....

It is a scam.

bicicleur
29-10-14, 09:45
What can we say we really know about history and civilizations?...well it seems not a lot...
20,000 years pyramid and its oldest in the world found in Europe....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pf5-0FhGY4

extraterrestials

noUseForAname
31-10-14, 03:55
extraterrestials

So apparently the bosnian piramid of the so called sun is a "cruel hoax"...lol...

noUseForAname
31-10-14, 03:58
Did the ancient Greeks have their DNA tested and then wrote down their results? I don't think so.



Might be? :rolleyes2:



Absolutely wrong. The Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with the Pelasgians: there is no common substrate in Greek and Albanian (in that case, you might argue for ). And to ad-hoc label the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" has absolutely no basis. If you want to use the term correctly, you should talk about the Pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Aegean.

The idea that the Albanians have something to do with the Pelasgians is entirely a confabulation from the 19th and 20th centuries.



Jeez. Whoever claimed that was a complete crank, because its in complete ignorance of archaeology and linguistics... :vomitting:

- Sumerian is an isolate language.
- Urbanization and agriculture in the Near East and Egypt is older than in Europe. Archaeology does not lie there.
- Literacy in Mesopotamia (Cuneiform) and Egypt (hieroglyphs) is older than in Europe (Linear A would be the oldest true European writing), again.

FYI, my intention is to find dna links, and this is nothing related to nationalities.

Hopefully we will soon have ancient greeks dna, and i am suspecting that it might be E-V13 because in those areas it is with its highest percentage in the world...

Of course there is a common substrate of greeks and albanians, (still referring to dna not history), just look at the dna percentage...E-V13 is almost the same, and this is a FACT, so call them pelazgian or some other tribes, E-V13 looks like its NATIVE at least for some thousands of years...

As for civilizations, you are right, but i was still referring and trying to make sense with dna links and not what we know through history...

Gorgonzola
01-11-14, 17:07
So what was the most possible haplogroup for the pelasgians?

noUseForAname
08-11-14, 23:37
6832
6833
6834
6835
6836

This is what i have found so far...

This stele has been discovered in the island of Lemno and, in general terms, it comes considered much difficult and little every convincing attempt to comprise the content of that writing. And it is for that reason very little attempts have been made to seriously engage and melt that enigma. We begin showing this Stele of Lemno, attributed to 6th century BCE (but from some characterized studious is older):
But, observing with attention the registration, since the first words, we can see that it is recorded in the pelasgo-illyrian language, like in the rest of the euro-Mediterranean territories, and it is therefore obvious that we can decipher it only through the Albanian language, this is the translation

This entire bustrophedic registration, where the letters TH and H can be read continuously, in order to represent sighs and sobs, as we would today make AH and OH contains tormenting complains of a funeral, obviously for the dead person that had been also a great hero. We now rewrite our the Stele in a modified shape adapting it to the modern era:

MOURNING, we are in full mourning,
anguish, ill luck all over,
women covered with black veils.
Grief you have given to the kinship, oh kinsman!
He belongs to our stock, Ah! , Oh!
He was torn away from us, what misfortune.
But in order which guilt, this disaster?
Gelid is his golden throne, Ah!
Of his fame we were proud, Oh!
Grief, grief in the whole world,
tearing him away, we are beheaded!
This grief struck us suddently, ah!
Alas, who knows for what fault? Oh!

Our kinsman he was,
Why ever did he struck us with such grief?
In Grief and despair, ah!
tears choke us, Oh!
He, who kept up our stock,
for what fault, now does he extinguish it?
Ah! Oh!

Oh! precious he was,
knife wounds, oh misfortune,
he suffered so much!
In Silence, never uttering an insult!
Ah! Oh!
You, kinsman, you have beheaded us, Oh!
You, great affliction you have given us, Ah! Oh!


http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/pelasgian_etruscan_english.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ALemnian_language

noUseForAname
08-11-14, 23:57
the E-V13 came from levant, the myth of Phoenician Alphabet,


How can E-V13 come from Levant to Balkans when it is proved that those areas have only 2%...this doesnt make any sense...

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

So this looks like it proves that current Greek and Albanian speaking regions are the ROOTS of E-V13 as it percentages go above 40%...

Ike
09-11-14, 01:38
So this looks like it proves that current Greek and Albanian speaking regions are the ROOTS of E-V13 as it percentages go above 40%...

No it doesn't prove anything. It just suggests.

Taranis
09-11-14, 09:30
This is what i have found so far...

This stele has been discovered in the island of Lemno and, in general terms, it comes considered much difficult and little every convincing attempt to comprise the content of that writing. And it is for that reason very little attempts have been made to seriously engage and melt that enigma. We begin showing this Stele of Lemno, attributed to 6th century BCE (but from some characterized studious is older):
But, observing with attention the registration, since the first words, we can see that it is recorded in the pelasgo-illyrian language, like in the rest of the euro-Mediterranean territories, and it is therefore obvious that we can decipher it only through the Albanian language, this is the translation

This entire bustrophedic registration, where the letters TH and H can be read continuously, in order to represent sighs and sobs, as we would today make AH and OH contains tormenting complains of a funeral, obviously for the dead person that had been also a great hero. We now rewrite our the Stele in a modified shape adapting it to the modern era:
MOURNING, we are in full mourning,
anguish, ill luck all over,
women covered with black veils.
Grief you have given to the kinship, oh kinsman!
He belongs to our stock, Ah! , Oh!
He was torn away from us, what misfortune.
But in order which guilt, this disaster?
Gelid is his golden throne, Ah!
Of his fame we were proud, Oh!
Grief, grief in the whole world,
tearing him away, we are beheaded!
This grief struck us suddently, ah!
Alas, who knows for what fault? Oh!

Our kinsman he was,
Why ever did he struck us with such grief?
In Grief and despair, ah!
tears choke us, Oh!
He, who kept up our stock,
for what fault, now does he extinguish it?
Ah! Oh!

Oh! precious he was,
knife wounds, oh misfortune,
he suffered so much!
In Silence, never uttering an insult!
Ah! Oh!
You, kinsman, you have beheaded us, Oh!
You, great affliction you have given us, Ah! Oh!
Where do you keep digging up this nonsense?
No offense to you, but this is yet more nonsense from an somebody who has no understanding of linguistics and who just wishes to magically "prove" the 'ancientness' of Albanian (ignorant of the fact that the internal history of Albanian tells us very clearly that the language, 2000 years ago, would have been very different), without caring what's actually written down in the Lemnos inscription, namely an entirely different language.

The Lemnos inscription isn't written in some wild-eyed, cranky "Pelasgo-Illyrian", but in a language closely related with Etruscan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ALemnian_language

Why do you link to something in the commentaries of wikipedia, while the Wikipedia article itself is a lot better written (ironically enough) and shows us the actual situation:


A relationship between Lemnian, Etruscan, and Raetian as a Tyrsenian language family is widely accepted due to demonstrations of close connections in vocabulary and grammar. For example,

both Etruscan and Lemnian share two unique dative cases, type-I *-si and type-II *-ale, shown both on the Lemnos Stele (Hulaie-ši "for Hulaie", Φukiasi-ale "for the Phocaean") and in inscriptions written in Etruscan (aule-si - "To Aule" - on the Cippus Perusinus as well as the inscription mi mulu Laris-ale Velχaina-si, meaning "I was blessed for Laris Velchaina").
They also share the genitive in *-s and a simple past tense in *-a-i (Etruscan -⟨e⟩ as in ame "was" (< *amai); Lemnian -⟨ai⟩ as in šivai, meaning "lived").

In contrast, the Illyrians were speakers of Indo-European languages.

Would you be happier if I claim that Albanian is descended from Martian? It would make just as much sense as this "Pelasgo-Illyrian" fantasy. :rolleyes2:

Sile
09-11-14, 10:11
How can E-V13 come from Levant to Balkans when it is proved that those areas have only 2%...this doesnt make any sense...

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

So this looks like it proves that current Greek and Albanian speaking regions are the ROOTS of E-V13 as it percentages go above 40%...

I read E-V13 came via cyrene in North-Africa, a high trading area later on with the ancient Greeks:satisfied:

Maleth
09-11-14, 15:44
I read E-V13 came via cyrene in North-Africa, a high trading area later on with the ancient Greeks:satisfied:

Again as this article shows the E-V13 input in north Africa is an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. Also as clearly studies shows that e-v13 is rare in the region. - Next theory please? :rolleyes2:

Cyrene owes its birth to a Greek Island named Thera (http://www.ancient.eu/thera/) in ancient times and which today is known as Santorini, located in the Southern Aegean (http://www.ancient.eu/aegean/) Sea. As a result of the rise in population that took place in the Greek world during the 8th and 7th century BCE, the Therans became concerned about the effects of overpopulation and dispatched an expedition to the North African region

http://www.ancient.eu/cyrene/

Ike
09-11-14, 20:45
Again as this article shows the E-V13 input in north Africa is an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. Also as clearly studies shows that e-v13 is rare in the region. - Next theory please? :rolleyes2:

It came from there, but the original population was gone in the meantime. Mediterranean was later colonized by Greek E-V13. We'd have to dig deeper to find the ancestors of E-V13. My guess is Phoenicia.

Maleth
10-11-14, 00:59
It came from there, but the original population was gone in the meantime. Mediterranean was later colonized by Greek E-V13. We'd have to dig deeper to find the ancestors of E-V13. My guess is Phoenicia.

Phoenicia existed in 1550 BC to 300 BC. Battaglia et al. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFBattagliaFornarinoAl-ZaheryOlivieri2007) mentions that E-V13 has been in Europe longer than 10,000 years. And more recently (2011), Lacan et al. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKeyserRicautBrucato2011) found that human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dated to approximately 7000 years ago were in the E-V13 branch of E-M78. This means that E-V13 has been around (in Europe) pre Classic Greece era, So how is a Phoenicia (or North Africa) theory possible?

Ike
10-11-14, 03:20
Phoenicia existed in 1550 BC to 300 BC. Battaglia et al. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFBattagliaFornarinoAl-ZaheryOlivieri2007) mentions that E-V13 has been in Europe longer than 10,000 years. And more recently (2011), Lacan et al. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKeyserRicautBrucato2011) found that human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dated to approximately 7000 years ago were in the E-V13 branch of E-M78. This means that E-V13 has been around (in Europe) pre Classic Greece era, So how is a Phoenicia (or North Africa) theory possible?


I'm talking just about location. Don't know how that area was called before that.

noUseForAname
10-11-14, 05:20
I read E-V13 came via cyrene in North-Africa, a high trading area later on with the ancient Greeks:satisfied:

Because currently in north Africa E-V13 is only 1% which makes a good argument that it would not make any sense to come from those regions...at least not for 9,000 years...
E-V13 (9,000 years) is a subclade of e1b which is 42,000 years....so all human migrations came from Africa...

My opinion is that E-V13 is the Native of South east balkans for at least 7,000 years which spread around Europe...you have the proven skeleton found on which i have previously sourced.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

Sile
10-11-14, 06:28
Because currently in north Africa E-V13 is only 1% which makes a good argument that it would not make any sense to come from those regions...at least not for 9,000 years...
E-V13 (9,000 years) is a subclade of e1b which is 42,000 years....so all human migrations came from Africa...

My opinion is that E-V13 is the Native of South east balkans for at least 7,000 years which spread around Europe...you have the proven skeleton found on which i have previously sourced.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

We keep coming back to this scenario
http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html
The dorians inhabited the ancient Albanian lands and they formed E-V13..............the dorians after they moved south settled in many greek places , one part becaming the corinthians

another post
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

Sile
10-11-14, 06:33
Because currently in north Africa E-V13 is only 1% which makes a good argument that it would not make any sense to come from those regions...at least not for 9,000 years...
E-V13 (9,000 years) is a subclade of e1b which is 42,000 years....so all human migrations came from Africa...

My opinion is that E-V13 is the Native of South east balkans for at least 7,000 years which spread around Europe...you have the proven skeleton found on which i have previously sourced.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

most people where replaced in north Africa by the arabian migration from Arabia to morocco, .......first Negev people, then Egyptians, then greeks, then liby-phonecians, then numidians and finally berbers

noUseForAname
10-11-14, 06:37
Georgiev gives very strong arguments about link Albanians with Dacians, i.e. Romanians (not necessarily nationaly but geographicaly), which indicate that Albanians originate somewhere from Romania.

Of course, Pelasgian nothing to do with Albanian.
Georgiev argues:

4) Very few Ancient Greek loanwords exist in Albanian, it means that Albanians and Greeks have no link;

6) Hundred and hundred Romanian words are similar only to Albanian words, and if someone combines this with similar Latin words in Albanian and Romanian, he or she can give conclusion that Albanians originate from some areas of today Romania.


1. Of course there are links between greeks and albanians...have you checked the DNA facts that i have listed?....

2. Although current modern greek and albanian language is quite different, it is argued that both languages are very different with the current modern ones...
It is argued recently that Greek and Albanian languages are 5,000 years old, it might be possible that they were the same or different tribes living at those regions and also speaking different languages or dialects...
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?src=mv&_r=0

3. Can you send me some same words as with an romanian language?...
Because albanian language is 5,000 years old romanian language later might have adopted some words from albanian...but again albanian language is very different with the old one....

As far as i have read there is no link at all with romanians and albanians...at least not genetically, linguistically, nor historically...

Also, if you look at the E-V13 (and my table) Albanians have actually the highest percentage in the world, and it is clear that E-V13 was spread from the south east balkans and later probably spread up to north west and east....

Maleth
10-11-14, 11:24
I'm talking just about location. Don't know how that area was called before that.

Got your point, 10,000 years ago there was no writing so any place names of how the people of the time called there aeras /regions, would have not been known. I believe today these regions are described as near east, levant, South west Asia and so on. It is possible that E-V13 was already mutated by that time in South west Asia (near east) then hopped over to the balkans and multiplied soon after the last glaciation period, but we are far off from any concrete proof of this, and in my opinion until more concrete and reliable studies are conducted will be that the E-V13 mutation occurred in the Balkans proper. Opinions can change as more (reliable) data flows in of course.

Maleth
10-11-14, 18:45
We keep coming back to this scenario

another post
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

Thank you for posting this interesting info Sile:-

"On the other hand, E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans"

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

Ike
10-11-14, 23:45
Got your point, 10,000 years ago there was no writing so any place names of how the people of the time called there aeras /regions, would have not been known. I believe today these regions are described as near east, levant, South west Asia and so on.

Ye, ye, I was just trying to be precise. Phoenicia, Cyprus or Crete is my guess.


It is possible that E-V13 was already mutated by that time in South west Asia (near east) then hopped over to the balkans and multiplied soon after the last glaciation period, but we are far off from any concrete proof of this, and in my opinion until more concrete and reliable studies are conducted will be that the E-V13 mutation occurred in the Balkans proper. Opinions can change as more (reliable) data flows in of course.

My problem with that theory is that for a mutation into E-V13 to happen in Balkans, there has to be a parent clade present (which is E-M78). If there was 100 males with E-M78 in Balkans, and one of them mutated into E-V13, then we'd have a starting ratio of 100:1 in favor of E-M78. Then why do we now have a totaly different ratio? There is 10x less E-M78 in Balkans, which means that E-V13 "prospered" thousand times better then E-M78. What could be explanation for that?

It's either that E-M78 colony on Balkans was extremely small, so that first E-V13 'mutant' could have disturbed the ratio at the very beginning of it's existence, or that E-V13 came into Balkans as an already formed subclade sometime later. This other hypothesis seems more probable for me.

noUseForAname
11-11-14, 05:12
We keep coming back to this scenario
http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html
The dorians inhabited the ancient Albanian lands and they formed E-V13..............the dorians after they moved south settled in many greek places , one part becaming the corinthians

another post
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69


1. Dinekes is 6 years old, and i am not understanding of what you mean by Dorians who inhabited Albanian lands and formed E-V13?...

2. Thanks for the second post it said "E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans" [13 (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69#B13),14 (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69#B14)]

3. Then you are mentioning Dorians that formed E-V13 and moved from north to south?....moved from where?...
According the paper you posted 2011 King et al this is actually the opposite E-V13 was originated in the south and moved up to north and south to Sicily

4. As current Albanian Speaking regions have the highest E-V13 in the world (refer to my table) and a bit higher than the current ethnic greeks than it doesn't correlate that they have migrated from the north or (as some argued) from the today Romania region. But actually might have migrated from the very south Peloponnese area, Pindus Mountain south west Thessaly up to north Albania and Kosovo where E-V15 is 47.5%

FYI we are talking about E-V13 (9,000 years), there there no Albanians at that time nor even ancient greeks, however my opinion is that both greeks and albanians are descendants from E-V13 as a major percentage as they surely might have had a bit of J2 and R1b
If, lets say later we conclude that most of Ancient greeks gods were not E-V13 and rather J2 or even r1b than we can probably conclude that they have came from either far east or far west and conquered a relatively small population of NATIVE E-V13, which i believe were Pelasgians or whatever name they had...or ancient greek gods where mostly E-V13?...

(Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek): Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes Pelasgus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgus) as the first man, born of the earth.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-19)
"Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barbaric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarians)" people from the Pindus Mountains (see the pic)

68376838

Sile
11-11-14, 06:07
1. Dinekes is 6 years old, and i am not understanding of what you mean by Dorians who inhabited Albanian lands and formed E-V13?...
and ?

Ancient dorian homeland in 1100BC was modern albania , they have found archeology etc there.....I already posted the link before.




3. Then you are mentioning Dorians that formed E-V13 and moved from north to south?....moved from where?...
According the paper you posted 2011 King et al this is actually the opposite E-V13 was originated in the south and moved up to north and south to Sicily

Dorians replaced the Myceneans, the dorians became different greek people, like the corinthians...the corinthians settled in sicliy, the corinthians settled in corfu, the corinthians send trading colonies to ancona in italy, corinthians resettled in modern Albania


4. As current Albanian Speaking regions have the highest E-V13 in the world (refer to my table) and a bit higher than the current ethnic greeks than it doesn't correlate that they have migrated from the north or (as some argued) from the today Romania region. But actually might have migrated from the very south Peloponnese area, Pindus Mountain south west Thessaly up to north Albania and Kosovo where E-V15 is 47.5%


there was no albanians in the bronze-age, the area was doric, the oldest people I know there where dorians.


FYI we are talking about E-V13 (9,000 years), there there no Albanians at that time nor even ancient greeks, however my opinion is that both greeks and albanians are descendants from E-V13 as a major percentage as they surely might have had a bit of J2 and R1b
If, lets say later we conclude that most of Ancient greeks gods were not E-V13 and rather J2 or even r1b than we can probably conclude that they have came from either far east or far west and conquered a relatively small population of NATIVE E-V13, which i believe were Pelasgians or whatever name they had...or ancient greek gods where mostly E-V13?...



I man with E-v13 who became king or chief and had a policy of a concubine system can, in 4 generations multipy 10 fold

We see this happen as late as the 19th century with the Zulus of africa


(Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek): Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes Pelasgus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgus) as the first man, born of the earth.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-19)
"Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barbaric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarians)" people from the Pindus Mountains (see the pic)

68376838

Pindu mountians was home to th molossians...one of the 14 epirote tribes

Sile
11-11-14, 06:08
It's either that E-M78 colony on Balkans was extremely small, so that first E-V13 'mutant' could have disturbed the ratio at the very beginning of it's existence, .

the only one that is logical

Yetos
11-11-14, 07:32
there is no possibility that Dorians inhabited Albania or came from Albania,

Georgiev's map is clear

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Map_of_Balkans_linguistic_groups_late_3rd_millenni um_BC%2C_according_to_Georgiev.png


Dorians had an epithet, Tριχακες meaning from Trikke Τρικαιοι a area in Thessaly near by Epirus

Ike
11-11-14, 17:35
the only one that is logical

Indeed is, if we want to fit the theory with the current findings, but what are the probabilities for it to happen? To have a very small M78 population, and at the same time to have V13 mutation happening, and at the same time to have a line of events that would eradicate all M78 except that one V13 which would then spread itself in Balkans? I agree that it is possible, but I'm placing my money on 100x more probable hypothesis, even though current findings suggest different. I don't think that current findings are indicative enough to be conclusive.

noUseForAname
14-11-14, 06:16
and ?

Ancient dorian homeland in 1100BC was modern albania , they have found archeology etc there.....I already posted the link before.

[FONT=Verdana]


Dorians replaced the Myceneans, the dorians became different greek people, like the corinthians...the corinthians settled in sicliy, the corinthians settled in corfu, the corinthians send trading colonies to ancona in italy, corinthians resettled in modern Albania

I man with E-v13 who became king or chief and had a policy of a concubine system can, in 4 generations multipy 10 fold

We see this happen as late as the 19th century with the Zulus of africa

Pindu mountians was home to th molossians...one of the 14 epirote tribes


Can you send the link please...

1: Dorians forrmed E-V13?....if they have formed then it couldn't be 1100BC....remember the 7,000 years [COLOR=#333333]skeleton was found and it was E-V13...


2: Dorians were the different kind of Greek people?...what do you mean different...also said became different?...
We are not trying to find here which tribes became different but to find if Pelazgians where mostly E-V13....
It is argued that E-V13 was born in the very south of current Greece area then we might argue that (and as we known it was the area of Pelazgians) the current regions (in the table with the highest percentages )are the descendants from there, i assume even before 4,000 years at least...(we might prove this if we find any ancient skeletons to those regions)



Region/Haplogroup
I1
I2*/I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G
J2
J*/J1
E-V13


Albania
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5


Kosovo Albanians
5.5
2.5
0
4.5
21
0
16.5
0
47.5


Albanians (Macedonia)
1
9

1.5
18.8
1.6
21.9

39.1


Greece (Peloponnese)








47


Greece (South)
3
20

2.2
19.6
5.5


43.5


Greece (North)
2
12

19
14.6
5.2


35.4
















3: So are you arguing that Dorians (ancient greek tribe) are descendants of Albanians?

There were no Albanians at the early bronze age but there were also no ancient greeks...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_ancient_Greece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age


4: Yet again we are not trying to decipher lots of different tribes...It is certain that as per Homer map Pelasgians (known that they were barbaric people living in the mountains) were specifically in the area of Pindus mountains. You can see that at Pindus Mountains South Greece E-V13 is 43.5%....then i assume spread specifically in the high mountains like north Pindus mountain in current Albania up to areas where it is known there are high mountains in south Kosovo and West Macedonia were E-V13 is above 40%...check the table and me Mountains in those regions...

kamani
14-11-14, 10:15
4: Yet again we are not trying to decipher lots of different tribes...It is certain that as per Homer map Pelasgians (known that they were barbaric people living in the mountains) were specifically in the area of Pindus mountains. You can see that at Pindus Mountains South Greece E-V13 is 43.5%....then i assume spread specifically in the high mountains like north Pindus mountain in current Albania up to areas where it is known there are very high mountains above 2,000 metres high in south Kosovo and West Macedoni were E-V13 is above 40%...check the table and me Mountains in those regions...

Finding refuge in mountains is a sign of old archaic haplogroups. like the G branches found in Swiss-Italian Alps. For E-V13 this is also the case if we look at numbers. There is not that much of it left in Europe anymore, since the countries that have it, also have small populations compared to 750 million total of Europe. There is more people with E-V13 in Italy+Spain+France then in the whole Balkans.

Yetos
14-11-14, 19:08
Can you send the link please...

1: Dorians forrmed E-V13?....if they have formed then it couldn't be 1100BC....remember the 7,000 years skeleton was found and it was E-V13...


2: Dorians were the different kind of Greek people?...what do you mean different...also said became different?...
We are not trying to find here which tribes became different but to find if Pelazgians where mostly E-V13....
It is argued that E-V13 was born in the very south of current Greece area then we might argue that (and as we known it was the area of Pelazgians) the current regions (in the table with the highest percentages )are the descendants from there, i assume even before 4,000 years at least...(we might prove this if we find any ancient skeletons to those regions)



Region/Haplogroup
I1
I2*/I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G
J2
J*/J1
E-V13


Albania
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5


Kosovo Albanians
5.5
2.5
0
4.5
21
0
16.5
0
47.5


Albanians (Macedonia)
1
9

1.5
18.8
1.6
21.9

39.1


Greece (Peloponnese)








47


Greece (South)
3
20

2.2
19.6
5.5


43.5


Greece (North)
2
12

19
14.6
5.2


35.4
















3: So are you arguing that Dorians (ancient greek tribe) are descendants of Albanians?
There were no Albanians at the early bronze age but there were also no ancient greeks...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_ancient_Greece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age


4: Yet again we are not trying to decipher lots of different tribes...It is certain that as per Homer map Pelasgians (known that they were barbaric people living in the mountains) were specifically in the area of Pindus mountains. You can see that at Pindus Mountains South Greece E-V13 is 43.5%....then i assume spread specifically in the high mountains like north Pindus mountain in current Albania up to areas where it is known there are very high mountains above 2,000 metres high in south Kosovo and West Macedoni were E-V13 is above 40%...check the table and me Mountains in those regions...

i prefer to check the religion and the birth rate,
some religion have big birth ratio, and if is 2/1 then in 3 generations is 8/1

MOESAN
14-11-14, 20:11
I think too the 'pelasgian' label doesn't tell us a lot... as very often it is a exogamic name

concerning Y-E-V13 I have not too much to add to what was said - someones here put solid arguments and we have now to wait for a chanceous ancient DNA in the right places and times -
here under a discussion I found in the forum "For what they were we are" - maybe I have red to quickly but I didn't see Y-DNA SNPs in it - but could it explain an old BUT neolithic presence of y-E1b and subclades in Europe??? just to feed the "war" (keep cool, it's my aperitive hour)



There are severalinteresting studies in my "to do" list and I will becommenting them in the following days (I am quite busy these weeksand therefore I concentrate my efforts on weekends).


In this entry we have arather interesting analysis of ancient mtDNA from the Pre-PotteryNeolithic B of Syria (NE and South) and its legacy on modernpopulations of West Asia and SE Europe, as well as on ancientEuropean Neolithic ones.


Eva Fernández et al.,Ancient DNA Analysis of 8000 B.C. Near Eastern FarmersSupports an Early Neolithic Pioneer Maritime Colonization of MainlandEurope through Cyprus and the Aegean Islands. PLoSGenetics 2014. Open access→ LINK (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401)[doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1004401]


I understand that thesequences are not really new but that they were first discussed inFernández 2005 (http://hdl.handle.net/10803/795) (thesisin Spanish) and 2008 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1875176808000334).What is new is the comparison with ancient and modern populations insearch of their possible legacy.




http://context-database.uni-koeln.de/img/P3A.png (http://context-database.uni-koeln.de/img/P3A.png)



Early PPNB (from CONTEXT C14 database (http://context-database.uni-koeln.de/map.php?mapM=1&AN=1&Zeit=8))



In spite of the relevanceof this analysis, it must be cautioned thaPPNBancient mtDNA and its legacy (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.fr/2014/06/ppnb-ancient-mtdna-and-its-legacy.html)t the Tell Ramad and Tell Halulasites may not be fully representative of the actual genetic diversityof PPNB as a whole, a cultural area that spanned all the Levant, fromthe Kurdish mountains to the Sinai and Cyprus.


If, as the authors argueand I have already suggested in relation to the NE African affinitiesof European Neolithic ancestry, the arrival of Neolithic to Thessalyhappened via a coastal route, inland PPNB sites may well not be asinformative as Palestinian or Cypriot ones.


But this is what we havefor now, so let's see what these ancient Syrian farmers tell us,while we await further Neolithic sequences from potentially morerelevant sites.




http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004401.t001&representation=PNG_M (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004401.t001&representation=PNG_M)



Table 1. Mitochondrial DNA typing of 15 Near Eastern PPNB skeletons.





40% of the sequencesbelong to haplogroup K, a U8-derived lineage unknown in Europe beforethe Neolithic. Most of the other lineages (40%) belong to R0 but halfof them belong to R0(xHV), extremely rare in Europe (common in Arabiainstead) and the H sequences cannot be identified either withanything common nowadays. The remaining 20% of lineages (U*, N* andL3*) are not too helpful either.


So when the authorscompare them with modern and ancient populations most of the affinitycorresponds to a single basal haplotype of K (16224C,16311C)as described in supplementary table 5.




http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004401.g002&representation=PNG_M (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004401.g002&representation=PNG_M)



Figure 2. Contour map displaying the percentage of individuals of the database carrying PPNB haplotypes.
Only populations with clear geographic distribution were included. Gradients indicate the degree of similarity between PPNB and modern populations (dark: high; clear: small).





The SE European and WestAsian populations with the greatest legacy of this haplotype are: theCsángó (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Csangos) ofMoldavia (22%), Cypriots (13%), Ashkenazi Jews (11%), Crimean Tatars(10%) and Georgians (9%). Cardium Pottery farmers from Catalonia(23%) and a pooled Central European Danubian Neolithic sample (10%)also score high for this lineage.


Some other PPNB matrilineages also show some lessermodern prevalence:


16223T (L3) → Qatar, Yemen (not necessarily the same L3(xM,N) lineage, it must be said)

16224C,16311C,16366T (K) → Druze

16256T (H) → Bedouin

The other haplotypes havenot been detected in modern nor European Neolithic populations.


The obvious conclusion isthat only the 16224C+16311C K haplotype was, of all the EuphratesPPNB lineages active in the Neolithic European founder effect. Thishaplotype was present only in 1/15 individuals from the EuphratesPPNB, so rather marginal over there, although a close relative foundtoday among the Druze was more common (3/15).


Another conclusion isthat the Csángó probably have a quite direct line ofancestry to the early European farmers, shedding some light on theorigin of this mysterious population at risk of extinction.


The coastal route toThessaly proposed here makes all sense to me because, on oneside, early Anatolian Neolithic cultures do not seem to have anyobvious cultural affinity with the first European Neolithic of Sesklo(Painted Pottery) and Otzaki (Cardium Pottery), and, on the otherside, there is clear evidence of some NE African genetic legacymediated by Palestine: Y-DNA E1b-V13 naturally but also the "BasalEurasian" speculation of Lazaridis (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2014/04/revised-lazaridis-study-on-ancient.html)that ended up being revealed as Dinka affinity in fig. S7 of Skoglund& Malström (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2014/04/diversity-and-legacy-of-ancient.html).


This theory can only bestrongly confirmed if Palestinian and Cypriot ancient DNA issequenced and fits well in it. Similarly ancient Balcanic DNA wouldbe most interesting to have as well for a more direct reference. But,in any case, the theory seems at the very least plausible andsupported by some important evidence.




http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tbLaDVs87ls/U5GOUPKjllI/AAAAAAAACrg/hod1iXEk3zA/s1600/middle-PPNB-coastal-route-Thessaly.jpg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tbLaDVs87ls/U5GOUPKjllI/AAAAAAAACrg/hod1iXEk3zA/s1600/middle-PPNB-coastal-route-Thessaly.jpg)



My hypothetical reconstruction of a plausible coastal route of Neolithic towards Thessaly (dashed red line)
on a base map of Middle PPNB from the CONTEXT database (http://context-database.uni-koeln.de/map.php?mapM=1&AN=1&Zeit=7).





It is also important tonotice that the Syrian PPNB sequences are different from the modernmtDNA pool of West Asia, dominated by lineages like J, T1 and U3.This suggests that, at the very least in this region of the SyrianEuphrates, there have been important demographic changes sinceNeolithic, something confirmed by data from the same are but of laterdates (which anyhow is not yet modern either).


Fernández et al. discuss this issue in some detail:

Our PPNB population includes a high percentage(80%) of lineages with a Palaeolithic coalescence age (K, R0 and U*)and differs from the current populations from the same area, whichexhibit a high frequency of mitochondrial haplogroups J, T1 and U3(TableS7 (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401.s010)). The latter have been traditionallylinked with the Neolithic expansion due to their younger coalescenceage, diversity and geographic distribution [11] (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401-Richards1),[12] (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401-Richards2),[49] (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401-Soares1).In addition to the PPNB population, haplogroup T1 is also absent inother Early Neolithic populations analyzed so far [17] (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401-Zvelebil2),[22] (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401-Chikhi1),[26] (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401-Skoglund1),[30] (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401-Lacan1).Haplogroup U3 has been found only in one LBK individual and it hasbeen suggested that it could have been already part of thepre-Neolithic Central European mitochondrial background[19] (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401-Brandt1).

HaplogroupJ is present in moderate frequencies in Central European LBK-AVKpopulations (11.75%) and it has been proposed as part of the CentralEuropean “mitochondrial Neolithic package” [19] (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401-Brandt1).However, it has also been described in one late hunter-gathererspecimen of Germany, raising the possibility of a pre-Neolithicorigin [23] (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401-Bramanti1).Haplogroup J is present in low frequency (4%) in Cardial/EpicardialNeolithic samples of North Eastern Spain [27] (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401-Gamba1),[28] (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401-Hervella1),[31] (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401#pgen.1 004401-Lacan2).Absence of Mesolithic samples from the same region prevents makingany inference about its emergence during the Mesolithic or theNeolithic. However, its absence in the PPNB genetic backgroundreinforces the first hypothesis.

Thesefindings suggest that (1) late Neolithic or post-Neolithicdemographic processes rather than the original Neolithic expansionmight have been responsible for the current distribution ofmitochondrial haplogroups J, T1 and U3 in Europe and the Near Eastand (2) lineages with Late Paleolithic coalescent times might haveplayed an important role in the Neolithic expansive process. Thefirst suggestion alerts against the use of modern Near Easternpopulations as representative of the genetic stock of the firstNeolithic farmers while the second will be explored in depth in thefollowing section.

From the viewpoint ofmaterial Prehistory, it is of course correct, that PPNB wasoverwhelmed by later cultural processes, which may have implied demicexpansions and replacements of some sort, even if many of them seemto originate within West Asia.


First of all, there isthe Halafian cultural expansion, originating in Upper Mesopotamia;then we also have to consider the Semitic cultural and linguisticexpansion, originating in Palestine; finally we have to consider theIndoeuropean waves: first the Anatolian group (Hittites, etc.) viathe Caucasus, later the Balcanic group of Phrygians (and probablyArmenians as derived branch) and finally the Iranian one from CentralAsia. Even within the Semitic expansion there were probably severalwaves as well. All together must have significantly reshuffled thegenetic landscape of the region.


But unless we get moreancient West Asian DNA it will be most difficult to discern clearlyhow all that played out. After all the Syrian Euphrates can beexceptional in many aspects, being right in the middle of all: a truepivot of the Fertile Crescent, subject to pressure from alldirections.

AT FIRST SIGHT it doesn' t fit the maximum of diversity of E1-V13 (a spot in Montenegro)
​I'll try to think again about it but...

LeBrok
14-11-14, 22:46
Great job Moesan, good compilation on first farmers.



First of all, there isthe Halafian cultural expansion, originating in Upper Mesopotamia;then we also have to consider the Semitic cultural and linguisticexpansion, originating in Palestine; finally we have to consider theIndoeuropean waves: first the Anatolian group (Hittites, etc.) viathe Caucasus, later the Balcanic group of Phrygians (and probablyArmenians as derived branch) and finally the Iranian one from CentralAsia. Even within the Semitic expansion there were probably severalwaves as well. All together must have significantly reshuffled thegenetic landscape of the region.

On scale of few thousand years dominant haplogroups change dramatically. I came to accept the fact, which is very transparent from latest research papers, that effect of fading and exploding of new haplogroups is more important than population movement. Sure population movements will introduce new hgs into natives, but the rest is done by founder effects or most successful hg effect, I suppose. Most notable example is explosion of I2a Dinaric in Balkans, or R1b L21 in England to over 50% of male population in some areas. At the same time popular in Paleolithic hg C is gone, though hg I is still successful. Very populous and successful Neolithic hg G2 seems to be in minority everywhere these days, and few other farmers' haplogroups, except new clades of EV13.
Thinking along these lines perhaps the first of farmers were J1 people, that's why this hg is widespread but fairly rare now?

LeBrok
14-11-14, 22:50
AT FIRST SIGHT it doesn' t fit the maximum of diversity of E1-V13 (a spot in Montenegro)


​I'll try to think again about it but...
G2 and J1 fit this scenario too.

MOESAN
15-11-14, 00:38
G2 and J1 fit this scenario too.

sensible points
I post this abstract only to show there could have been (THERE HAVE BEEN) more than a Neolithical wave into Europe from Anatolia and maybe directly from Near-Eastern -
that said, it seems to me that mt-HGs are finally less "deletere" than the Y-HGs - these last ones vary certainly less rapidly in today satured and "softened" Europe than in ancient times where they were linked to a male elite, mostly in the metals times of warlike tribes but even in Neolithical times -

MOESAN
15-11-14, 00:43
That said I put this in this topic where a a big part was given to Y-E-V13 and ancestors, because of the first supposed position of these early farmers (PPN):
central coastal Levant and proximity of Lebanon so Druzes, and proximity of Egypt... as a whole, compare do "northern" G and eastern J, E is more coastal and western -

noUseForAname
15-11-14, 04:05
Finding refuge in mountains is a sign of old archaic haplogroups. like the G branches found in Swiss-Italian Alps. For E-V13 this is also the case if we look at numbers. There is not that much of it left in Europe anymore, since the countries that have it, also have small populations compared to 750 million total of Europe. There is more people with E-V13 in Italy+Spain+France then in the whole Balkans.

I dont think about Spain and France it is very low there....and those are very big countries to compare with, the key is to find the highest percentages in populations which might show or help us in their migrations...For example R1a thought to be born in central Russia or west Asia is very high in current central Russians with over 50%...

As per Italy...I have found very high E-V13 in some areas above 28% (see table) and it might have helped to some degree a pretty large migrations of Albanians to Sicily, Calabria and Puglia (see the Italian documentary at minute 6:00).......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGY1lUP_U-Q


Italians (South)
IE (Italic)
68
25.0
3.0
6.0
26.0

15.0

3.0

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Italians (Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily))
IE (Italic)



8.8
27.3
23.8




Semino2004[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)


Italians (East Sicily)
IE (Italic)
87
20.0
2.3
5.0
29.0

5.0

5.0

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations

noUseForAname
15-11-14, 04:37
Ye, ye, I was just trying to be precise. Phoenicia, Cyprus or Crete is my guess.



My problem with that theory is that for a mutation into E-V13 to happen in Balkans, there has to be a parent clade present (which is E-M78). If there was 100 males with E-M78 in Balkans, and one of them mutated into E-V13, then we'd have a starting ratio of 100:1 in favor of E-M78. Then why do we now have a totaly different ratio? There is 10x less E-M78 in Balkans, which means that E-V13 "prospered" thousand times better then E-M78. What could be explanation for that?

It's either that E-M78 colony on Balkans was extremely small, so that first E-V13 'mutant' could have disturbed the ratio at the very beginning of it's existence, or that E-V13 came into Balkans as an already formed subclade sometime later. This other hypothesis seems more probable for me.

You should ask Maciamo (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/258-Maciamo) for this, although you are welcome to give personal opinions i would recommend to instead give scientific sources first before giving any opinions
Hopefully Maciamo would read this and will explain...so far this is what i have found and said from him regarding E-V13...to argue that E-V13 didn't came sometime later as you mention....

Originally Posted by Cobol19
I think E1b1b was probably hanging out in West Asia for a while until the movement happened to Europe, and among them there was likely J2 men as well.

Maciamo (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/258-Maciamo)
That was what I thought before too. But that does not explain why E1b1b has a higher frequency than J2 in Western Iberia or the Southern Balkans. J2 is far more common than E1b1b in West Asia (ratio of almost 3:1). It also fails to explain why there is so little E-V13 in West Asia and the Levant. Furthermore, if Neolithic farmers and herders were only G2a, then how did E1b1b reach Iberia at all from the Middle East ?

Finally, the Dodecad admixture found a common Mediterranean element for South Europeans, North Africans and Middle Easterners alike. It is almost undeniable that this Mediterranean element comprises most or all E1b1b in Europe, and some E1b1b in North Africa (the E-M78, I would think). The best correlation is E-M78 + T + I (xI1/I2b). If European E1b1b came through Southwest Asia (Levant) and West Asia (Anatolia, Caucasus) and mixed with J2 or other haplogroups there before reaching Europe, we would expect much more West Asian and Southwest Asian admixture in Europeans. Instead, there is more Mediterranean admixture.

noUseForAname
15-11-14, 05:32
the only one that is logical

Yes i think so too, E-M78 (maybe even very small groups) came directly to (South East balkans) 9,000 years ago and from there mutated and formed E-V13, then from there since that time spread out through Europe slowly....on the other side E-M78 which is at the very north east Africa is 18.000 years ago. This i guess makes pretty much sense and it is also argued at europedia....

E-V13 is one of the major markers of the Neolithic diffusion of farming from the Balkans to central, eastern and western Europe. Like all the other subclades of E-M78, E-V13 originated in north-east Africa toward the end of the last Ice Age.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M78
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

Angela
15-11-14, 19:12
sensible points
I post this abstract only to show there could have been (THERE HAVE BEEN) more than a Neolithical wave into Europe from Anatolia and maybe directly from Near-Eastern -
that said, it seems to me that mt-HGs are finally less "deletere" than the Y-HGs - these last ones vary certainly less rapidly in today satured and "softened" Europe than in ancient times where they were linked to a male elite, mostly in the metals times of warlike tribes but even in Neolithical times -

I don't doubt that's true, but whether or not there were slight differences in "phenotype", these early Neolithic farmers were all extremely similar in terms of overall genetics.

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/images/ncomms6257-f2.jpg

Ed: Otzi and Gok4 are very close to them indeed, even though Gok4 is more admixed, and if the Portalon Iberian farmer and the Iberian Cardial farmers were included, I have no doubt they would show up there as well.
(http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/images/ncomms6257-f2.jpg)

Ike
16-11-14, 20:17
You should ask Maciamo (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/258-Maciamo) for this, although you are welcome to give personal opinions i would recommend to instead give scientific sources first before giving any opinions
Hopefully Maciamo would read this and will explain...so far this is what i have found and said from him regarding E-V13...to argue that E-V13 didn't came sometime later as you mention.....

There are no scientific sources.Only one ancient E-V13 we have is in Spain, which is very far away and long ago from Pelasgians. That's why (at the moment) no one can give you anything except mathematical estimate, which may not even be true.

I'm more inclined to think according to LeBrok's hypothesis (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30562-Palasgians-pre-Ancient-Greeks-would-their-DNA-be-E-V13?p=444184&viewfull=1#post444184), that founder effect is much more important in Hg dynamics than we give it credit.

noUseForAname
25-11-14, 05:01
i prefer to check the religion and the birth rate,
some religion have big birth ratio, and if is 2/1 then in 3 generations is 8/1

I dont see how religion would have any effect on this....Just during the Otoman empire and when Gjergj Kastrioti skanderbeg died January 17, 1468, it was the same religion in those areas....In addition if you have seen the table above how come then Peleponnese area have 47 % of E-V13 and Kosovo 47.5%?....My opinion is that This has nothing to do with religion...

Maleth
25-11-14, 11:13
i prefer to check the religion and the birth rate,
some religion have big birth ratio, and if is 2/1 then in 3 generations is 8/1

And what religion is E_V13? :grin:. With the same measuring stick the most successful multiplication in Europe to date is R1b. What religion does R1b have? and forget national percentages but go in population numbers were R1b is common. UK = 64 million, Spain = 47 Million, Germany 84 Million compared to Kosovo 1 million, Greece 11 million and Albania 3 million were E-V13 is all the more common.

Religions do not come labeled with a particular hapolgroup as we all very well know :wink:

kamani
25-11-14, 15:21
So far the most sensible explanation of its origin is that it is the Iberian Neolithic Farmers that made it to the Balkans and Italy, IMO. If we want to go even further it comes from North-West Africa. Another key support to this is that the oldest subclades of E-M123 are found actually in Portugal (Spain Neighborhood...). The accompanying mtdna was H (most of it also comes from Spain).

Maleth
25-11-14, 18:41
So far the most sensible explanation of its origin is that it is the Iberian Neolithic Farmers that made it to the Balkans and Italy, IMO. If we want to go even further it comes from North-West Africa. Another key support to this is that the oldest subclades of E-M123 are found actually in Portugal (Spain Neighborhood...). The accompanying mtdna was H (most of it also comes from Spain).

Kamani, at present ancient dna sampling is only possible north to the alps so we are not going to have much data about ancient dna south of the alps until we have more sophisticated tools to make it possible. The current speriodic data was probably available to special circumstances to were they were found and preserved, but its very very minimal compared to studies that are ongoing to the north of the Alps. At least that what I was told by some professor in the field. There will be a time when things will be more clear. (at least I was told)

Ike
19-12-14, 06:20
Finally, the Dodecad admixture found a common Mediterranean element for South Europeans, North Africans and Middle Easterners alike. It is almost undeniable that this Mediterranean element comprises most or all E1b1b in Europe, and some E1b1b in North Africa (the E-M78, I would think). The best correlation is E-M78 + T + I (xI1/I2b). If European E1b1b came through Southwest Asia (Levant) and West Asia (Anatolia, Caucasus) and mixed with J2 or other haplogroups there before reaching Europe, we would expect much more West Asian and Southwest Asian admixture in Europeans. Instead, there is more Mediterranean admixture.

You just assumed that 10.000 years ago E-V13 mixed with something that is there now...

noUseForAname
23-12-14, 03:08
You just assumed that 10.000 years ago E-V13 mixed with something that is there now...

That is argued by Maciamo the creator of this website (not by me)...read more about E-V13 from Maciamo thread....

FYI..... Y dna cannot be mixed, cannot change, it might mutate through time with thousands of years but not changed through others, it is from male.
I dont understand what you mean when saying "it mixed with something else"

noUseForAname
23-12-14, 21:38
Where do you keep digging up this nonsense?
No offense to you, but this is yet more nonsense from an somebody who has no understanding of linguistics and who just wishes to magically "prove" the 'ancientness' of Albanian (ignorant of the fact that the internal history of Albanian tells us very clearly that the language, 2000 years ago, would have been very different), without caring what's actually written down in the Lemnos inscription, namely an entirely different language.

The Lemnos inscription isn't written in some wild-eyed, cranky "Pelasgo-Illyrian", but in a language closely related with Etruscan.


Why do you link to something in the commentaries of wikipedia, while the Wikipedia article itself is a lot better written (ironically enough) and shows us the actual situation:



In contrast, the Illyrians were speakers of Indo-European languages.

Would you be happier if I claim that Albanian is descended from Martian? It would make just as much sense as this "Pelasgo-Illyrian" fantasy. :rolleyes2:

According to recent and older scientific research Albanian and Greek Languages are 5,000 years OLD, What comments you have about this?...please share any scientific papers and not just your thoughts and being ironical and saying this is nonsense...
Sources....
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htm
6970

You also mentioned that there is nothing related with ancient Greeks and Albanians, then how come their dna regarding E-V13 is so similar?, have you looked at how for example Peloponnese and south Greece and north Greece are with over 40/% E-V13 and Kosovo has 47.5%?....and Kosovo Albanians from Macedonia have 45% (check my table regarding ethnic E-V13)....what comments you have about this?....

Sile
23-12-14, 21:47
According to recent and older scientific research Albanian and Greek Languages are 5,000 years OLD, What comments you have about this?...please share any scientific papers and not just your thoughts and being ironical and saying this is nonsense...
Sources....
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htm
6970

You also mentioned that there is nothing related with ancient Greeks and Albanians, then how come their dna regarding E-V13 is so similar?, have you looked at how for example Peloponnese and south Greece and north Greece are with over 40/% E-V13 and Kosovo has 47.5%?....and Kosovo Albanians from Macedonia have 45% (check my table regarding ethnic E-V13)....what comments you have about this?....

the nytimes link states italian 800 years ago...which is correct.
it states modern albanian at 1000 years ago ( but split from Greek roughly 3500 years before that)

Skerdilaidas
24-12-14, 04:45
the nytimes link states italian 800 years ago...which is correct.
it states modern albanian at 1000 years ago ( but split from Greek roughly 3500 years before that)
Judging by that graph, Albanian and Greek went their separate ways about 5000 years ago, which most likely is correct. But, that tree is not correct on the relationships of Greek and Armenian. There is a new theory/hypothesis regarding Greek, Armenian, Phrygian, and Albanian. All four languages are grouped under the Balkan branch of Indo-European languages, and Armenian-Phrygian-Greek creates/form the Eastern branch, while Albanian is alone on the Western branch (the only Paleo-Balkan survivor). Anyways, check it out for yourself:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDgMTVnUnIU

noUseForAname
24-12-14, 07:05
the nytimes link states italian 800 years ago...which is correct.
it states modern albanian at 1000 years ago ( but split from Greek roughly 3500 years before that)

It is clearly showing that Greek and Albanian were already separate and old 5,000 years ago. there are no splits here....

It also shows on the map that the Albanian speaking regions were in the area of todays Albania, Kosovo, west Montenegro, south Serbia, the whole of todays Macedonia, south west Bulgaria and even the very south of Italy.

LeBrok
24-12-14, 08:24
It is clearly showing that Greek and Albanian were already separate and old 5,000 years ago. there are no splits here....
Clearly you don't read this chart right. Have a closer look.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6970&d=1419366716
Otherwise it is just an educated guess.

Taranis
24-12-14, 09:23
According to recent and older scientific research Albanian and Greek Languages are 5,000 years OLD, What comments you have about this?...please share any scientific papers and not just your thoughts and being ironical and saying this is nonsense...

It is nonsense. Modern Albanian has (in roughly chronological order) Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic and Turkish loanwords. Proto-Indo-European is conventionally dated to circa 3500 BC, yes, but by no means does that mean that, for example, Greek or Albanian (in their modern forms) are that old, because they clearly aren't.

For Greek, we do have the attestation of Mycenaean Greek (from the Bronze Age), which is very different from modern Greek, and even quite different from the classical Greek of, say, one Homer.

Within Indo-European, Greek and Albanian are indeed not closely related and as far as their phonetical evolution goes, they have little commonalities: Greek is a Centum language (the "palato-velar" sounds of PIE are merged with the "plain" velars), while Albanian is a Satem language (the "palato-velars" are expressed as fricatives - in the case of Albanian mainly *θ and *ð). Further, Albanian has Proto-Indo-European *o shifted to *a (a commonality it has with Germanic and Balto-Slavic). In contrast, Greek has shifted word-initial *s- to *h- (a commonality it has with Armenian and the Iranic languages).

About loanwords in Albanian, I'd like to pick Latin ones for a demonstration, since they make up a large part of the Albanian vocabulary (https://www.academia.edu/5766282/Common_Lexic_in_Romanian_and_Albanian._Substrate_a nd_Loanwords):

mik (friend - 'amicus')
qen (dog - 'canis')
qytet (town/city - 'civitas')
peshk (fish - 'pisces')
pulë ('chicken' - pullus)
shok (friend - 'socius')

If Albanian borrowed all these words from Latin, and they are subject to subsequent phonetic evolution, by what logic is Albanian "5000 years old" if the language was a very different one 2000 years ago?


You also mentioned that there is nothing related with ancient Greeks and Albanians, then how come their dna regarding E-V13 is so similar?, have you looked at how for example Peloponnese and south Greece and north Greece are with over 40/% E-V13 and Kosovo has 47.5%?....and Kosovo Albanians from Macedonia have 45% (check my table regarding ethnic E-V13)....what comments you have about this?....

About E-V13, as you know it has been found in one of the Neolithic sites from Spain (http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.abstract), suggesting it was once widespread in Europe in the Neolithic, considerably older than PIE.

Skerdilaidas
24-12-14, 23:37
Taranis, Albanian has the proto-Albanian as ancestor which most definitely was a paleo-Balkan language; could be Illyrian (most likely), or some other language that indeed was never recorded or mentioned during antiquity. Same scenario for the Greek language, or in fact for all Indo-European languages, and in time they all go back to PIE, so the 5000 year mark is somewhat correct for each family. Languages adapt, borrow, and evolve, so it's senseless talking about how different Albanian was 2000 years ago, and this goes for all languages. To be honest I don't understand what kind of point you are trying to make with such example, and also the loans?


E-V13 was found in Spain, and it seems that it probably got there via Balkan:


The Ave07 haplotype was also compared with current Eb1b1a2 haplotypes previously published (10–14). It appeared identical at the seven markers tested to five Albanian, two Bosnian, one Greek, one Italian, one Sicilian, two Corsican, and two Provence French samples and are thus placed on the same node of the E1b1b1a1b-V13 network as eastern, central, and western Mediterranean haplotypes

Taranis
25-12-14, 12:20
Taranis, Albanian has the proto-Albanian as ancestor which most definitely was a paleo-Balkan language; could be Illyrian (most likely), or some other language that indeed was never recorded or mentioned during antiquity.

I won't disagree with you here that Albanian was - likely - descended from one of the Paleo-Balkan languages (the situation is too ambiguous to tell for certain).


Same scenario for the Greek language, or in fact for all Indo-European languages, and in time they all go back to PIE, so the 5000 year mark is somewhat correct for each family. Languages adapt, borrow, and evolve, so it's senseless talking about how different Albanian was 2000 years ago, and this goes for all languages.

Exactly. Greek, however, is a special case in so far as it has one of the longest written histories of any Indo-European languages, thanks to Mycenaean Greek (written in Linear B, from circa 1500 BC) - even though there is that 'dark age' between the Linear B becoming extinct (during the Bronze Age collapse), and the Greeks adopting the alphabet from the Phoenicians (circa 800s BC).


To be honest I don't understand what kind of point you are trying to make with such example, and also the loans?

I was mainly pointing this out as a counter-example for noUseForAname's earlier posts, in particular the absurd claim that it would be possible to 'translate' Lemnian (a non-Indo-European, Tyrsenian language, closely related with Etruscan) using cherrypicked modern Albanian:


6832
6833
6834
6835
6836

This is what i have found so far...

This stele has been discovered in the island of Lemno and, in general terms, it comes considered much difficult and little every convincing attempt to comprise the content of that writing. And it is for that reason very little attempts have been made to seriously engage and melt that enigma. We begin showing this Stele of Lemno, attributed to 6th century BCE (but from some characterized studious is older):
But, observing with attention the registration, since the first words, we can see that it is recorded in the pelasgo-illyrian language, like in the rest of the euro-Mediterranean territories, and it is therefore obvious that we can decipher it only through the Albanian language, this is the translation

This entire bustrophedic registration, where the letters TH and H can be read continuously, in order to represent sighs and sobs, as we would today make AH and OH contains tormenting complains of a funeral, obviously for the dead person that had been also a great hero. We now rewrite our the Stele in a modified shape adapting it to the modern era:

MOURNING, we are in full mourning,
anguish, ill luck all over,
women covered with black veils.
Grief you have given to the kinship, oh kinsman!
He belongs to our stock, Ah! , Oh!
He was torn away from us, what misfortune.
But in order which guilt, this disaster?
Gelid is his golden throne, Ah!
Of his fame we were proud, Oh!
Grief, grief in the whole world,
tearing him away, we are beheaded!
This grief struck us suddently, ah!
Alas, who knows for what fault? Oh!

Our kinsman he was,
Why ever did he struck us with such grief?
In Grief and despair, ah!
tears choke us, Oh!
He, who kept up our stock,
for what fault, now does he extinguish it?
Ah! Oh!

Oh! precious he was,
knife wounds, oh misfortune,
he suffered so much!
In Silence, never uttering an insult!
Ah! Oh!
You, kinsman, you have beheaded us, Oh!
You, great affliction you have given us, Ah! Oh!


http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/pelasgian_etruscan_english.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ALemnian_language



Because by no means, Albanian has anything to do with the pre-Greek languages of the Aegean region.

Ike
25-12-14, 22:44
That is argued by Maciamo the creator of this website (not by me)...read more about E-V13 from Maciamo thread....

FYI..... Y dna cannot be mixed, cannot change, it might mutate through time with thousands of years but not changed through others, it is from male.
I dont understand what you mean when saying "it mixed with something else"

Then why do you quote text that talks about mixing if you don't understand what they say...




Finally, the Dodecad admixture found a common Mediterranean element for South Europeans, North Africans and Middle Easterners alike. It is almost undeniable that this Mediterranean element comprises most or all E1b1b in Europe, and some E1b1b in North Africa (the E-M78, I would think). The best correlation is E-M78 + T + I (xI1/I2b). If European E1b1b came through Southwest Asia (Levant) and West Asia (Anatolia, Caucasus) and mixed with J2 or other haplogroups there before reaching Europe, we would expect much more West Asian and Southwest Asian admixture in Europeans. Instead, there is more Mediterranean admixture.

noUseForAname
05-01-15, 20:49
Clearly you don't read this chart right. Have a closer look.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6970&d=1419366716
Otherwise it is just an educated guess.

I see here Albanian and Hellenic separate at 1,000 BC which is 3,000 years, the other source shows 5,000 years ago Albanian and Greek separate...
I don't understand what are you referring too....

noUseForAname
05-01-15, 21:11
Then why do you quote text that talks about mixing if you don't understand what they say...

Maciamo was arguing that E-V13 didn't came from Levant nor Anatolia. Therefore it didn't mixed with J2 or other haplogroups.

FYI, y dna (E-V13) cannot be mixed with say J2, admixed with lets say when E-V13 was there J2 came and admixed, meaning from there both y dna might have mixed with female counterpart as E-V13 and J2 cannot be mixed, they are both from male genes.

Piro Ilir
05-05-15, 02:53
Georgiev gives very strong arguments about link Albanians with Dacians, i.e. Romanians (not necessarily nationaly but geographicaly), which indicate that Albanians originate somewhere from Romania.

According Georgiev Albanian has no link with Illyiran, and Illyrians are not ancestors of Albanians.

Of course, Pelasgian nothing to do with Albanian.

(Certainly Pelasgian and Illyrian has no link, completely different).

Georgiev argues:

1) Illyrian toponims from antiquty are completely different from Albanian phonetic laws;

2) Ancient Latin loanwords in Albanian have phonetic form from Latin East Balkan (proto-Romanian) and no from West Balkan Latin (for example they have no link with Old Dalmatian);

3) Marine terms in Albanian is borrowed from different languages suggesting that Albanians were not coastal people;

4) Very few Ancient Greek loanwords exist in Albanian, it means that Albanians and Greeks have no link;

5) There is no reference in any source about Albanian in today areas before Middle Age;

6) Hundred and hundred Romanian words are similar only to Albanian words, and if someone combines this with similar Latin words in Albanian and Romanian, he or she can give conclusion that Albanians originate from some areas of today Romania.

These arguments are serious and they cannot simply be dismissed, but Albanian scientists often dismisse it, in favor Illyrian link, for they have nothing to prove, on the contrary, Illyrian was CENTUM and Albanian is SATEM.

Processed from the book: Early Medieval Balkans, University of Michigan Press, Fine J. V. A.
Is not proven yet, illyrian was centum. There are indices of both, satem and centum. The majority of the serious scholars agree that Albanian evolved fron illyrian . There are all the indices showing this fact. If you like to dream, this is your problem, go on. Georgeiev, is the only one supporting the Albanian connection with dacian. He failed. There is none ancient source of a migration spreading from Romania to Albania. Of course, except Slavic tribes. Romans knew all the population movements spreading inside empire. Those claims are becoming ridiculous.

Piro Ilir
05-05-15, 02:58
You can be precise, it is not my theory, it is Georgiev theory, this scientist set it based on extensive research.

It has link with topic to avoid unnecessary confusion about connections between the present and the past that does not exist.
Georgiev theory, failed times ago,. So, stop proclaiming his theory.

Pax Augusta
05-05-15, 03:39
This is just a word used by Greeks for certain groups of non-Greeks.

Absolutely true.

noUseForAname
16-05-15, 07:23
It is nonsense. Modern Albanian has (in roughly chronological order) Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic and Turkish loanwords. Proto-Indo-European is conventionally dated to circa 3500 BC, yes, but by no means does that mean that, for example, Greek or Albanian (in their modern forms) are that old, because they clearly aren't.

For Greek, we do have the attestation of Mycenaean Greek (from the Bronze Age), which is very different from modern Greek, and even quite different from the classical Greek of, say, one Homer.

Within Indo-European, Greek and Albanian are indeed not closely related and as far as their phonetical evolution goes, they have little commonalities: Greek is a Centum language (the "palato-velar" sounds of PIE are merged with the "plain" velars), while Albanian is a Satem language (the "palato-velars" are expressed as fricatives - in the case of Albanian mainly *θ and *ð). Further, Albanian has Proto-Indo-European *o shifted to *a (a commonality it has with Germanic and Balto-Slavic). In contrast, Greek has shifted word-initial *s- to *h- (a commonality it has with Armenian and the Iranic languages).

About loanwords in Albanian, I'd like to pick Latin ones for a demonstration, since they make up a large part of the Albanian vocabulary (https://www.academia.edu/5766282/Common_Lexic_in_Romanian_and_Albanian._Substrate_a nd_Loanwords):

mik (friend - 'amicus')
qen (dog - 'canis')
qytet (town/city - 'civitas')
peshk (fish - 'pisces')
pulë ('chicken' - pullus)
shok (friend - 'socius')

If Albanian borrowed all these words from Latin, and they are subject to subsequent phonetic evolution, by what logic is Albanian "5000 years old" if the language was a very different one 2000 years ago?

About E-V13, as you know it has been found in one of the Neolithic sites from Spain (http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.abstract), suggesting it was once widespread in Europe in the Neolithic, considerably older than PIE.


of course it has some latin or other words (as all the languages have), however by no means it is not "large part" as you mentioned
Check the Illyrian words borrowed by modern albanian....

Cognates with Illyrian[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Albanian_language&action=edit&section=32)]

See also: Illyrian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages)


Andena/Andes/Andio/Antis — personal Illyrian names based on a root-word and- or ant-, found in both the southern and the Dalmatian-Pannonian (including modern Bosnia and Herzegovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina)) onomastic provinces; cf. Alb. andë (northern Albanian dialect, or Gheg) and ëndë (southern Albanian dialect or Tosk) "appetite, pleasure, desire, wish"; Andi proper name, Andizetes, an Illyrian people inhabiting the Roman province of Panonia.[64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-balkancenter.org-82)
aran "field"; cf. Alb. arë; plural ara[65] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Mann1977-83)
Ardiaioi/Ardiaei, name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. ardhja "arrival" or "descent", connected to hardhi "vine-branch, grape-vine", with a sense development similar to Germanic *stamniz, meaning both stem, tree stalk and tribe, lineage. However, the insufficiency of this theory is that so far there is no certainty as to the historical or etymological development of either ardhja/hardhi or Ardiaioi, as with many other words.[64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-balkancenter.org-82)
Bilia "daughter"; cf. Alb. bijë, dial. bilë[66] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-84)
Bindo/Bindus, an Illyrian deity from Bihać, Bosnia and Herzegovina; cf. Alb. bind "to convince" or "to make believe", përbindësh "monster".[67] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-85)
bounon, "hutt, cottage"; cf. Alb bun[68] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Mayani_1962-86)
brisa, "husk of grapes"; cf. Alb bërsí "lees, dregs; mash" ( < PA *brutiā)[69] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-IG-87)
Barba- "swamp", a toponym from Metubarbis; possibly related to Alb. bërrakë "swampy soil"[69] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-IG-87)
can- "dog"; related to Alb. qen[69] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-IG-87)
Daesitiates, a name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. dash "ram", corresponding contextually with south Slavonic dasa "ace", which might represent a borrowing and adaptation from Illyrian (or some other ancient language).[64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-balkancenter.org-82)
mal, "mountain"; cf. Alb mal[70] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-88)
bardi, "white"; cf. Alb bardhë[71] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-89)
drakoina "supper"; cf. Alb. darke, dreke[72] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-ReferenceB-90)
drenis, "deer"; cf. Alb dre, dreni[68] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Mayani_1962-86)
delme "sheep"; cf. Alb dele, Gheg dialect delme[73] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Millennium_Studies-91)
dard, "pear"; cf. Alb dardhë[74] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-92)
Hyllus (the name of an Illyrian king); cf. Alb. yll (hyll in some northern dialects) "star", also Alb. hyj "god", Ylli proper name.[72] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-ReferenceB-90)
sīca, "dagger"; cf. Alb thikë or thika "knife"[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-93)
Ulc-, "wolf" (pln. Ulcinium); cf. Alb ujk "wolf", ulk (Northern Dialect)[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-94)
loúgeon, "pool"; cf. Alb lag, legen "to wet, soak, bathe, wash" ( < PA *lauga), lëgatë "pool" ( < PA *leugatâ), lakshte "dew" ( < PA laugista)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-95)
mag- "great"; cf. Alb. i madh "big , great"[69] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-IG-87)
mantía "bramblebush"; Old and dial. Alb mandë "berry, mulberry" (mod. Alb mën, man)[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
rhinos, "fog, mist"; cf. Old Alb ren "cloud" (mod. Alb re, rê) ( < PA *rina)[78] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-96)
Vendum "place"; cf. Proto-Alb. wen-ta (Mod. Alb. vend)[72] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-ReferenceB-90)


Early Greek loans[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Albanian_language&action=edit&section=33)]

There are some 30 Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) loanwords in Albanian.[79] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Linguistics_p.412-97) Many of these reflect a dialect which voiced its aspirants, as did the Macedonian dialect. Other loanwords are Doric; these words mainly refer to commodity items and trade goods and probably came through trade with a now-extinct intermediary.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-huld-12)


bletë; "hive, bee" < Attic mélitta "bee" (vs. Ionic mélissa).[80] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-98)
drapër; "sickle" < (NW) drápanon[81] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Ancient_Indo-European_Dialects_p.102-99)
kumbull; "plum" < kokkúmelon[81] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Ancient_Indo-European_Dialects_p.102-99)
lakër; "cabbage, green vegetables" < láchanon "green; vegetable"[82] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Proto-Albanian_Author_Vladimir_.C4.96_p.23-100)
lëpjetë; "orach, dock" < lápathon[83] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-101)
lyej; "to smear, oil" < *liwenj < *elaiwā < Gk elai(w)ṓn "oil"[clarification needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify)]
mokër; "millstone" < (NW) māchaná "device, instrument"[79] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Linguistics_p.412-97)
mollë; "apple" < mēlon "fruit"[84] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-102)
pjepër; "melon" < pépōn
presh; "leek" < práson[82] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Proto-Albanian_Author_Vladimir_.C4.96_p.23-100)
shpellë; "cave" < spḗlaion
trumzë; "thyme" < (NW) thýmbrā, thrýmbrē[81] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Ancient_Indo-European_Dialects_p.102-99)


Gothic loans[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Albanian_language&action=edit&section=34)]

Some Gothic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language) loanwords were borrowed through Late Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Latin), while others came from the Ostrogothic expansion into parts of Praevalitana around Nakšić and the Gulf of Kotor in Montenegro.


fat; "groom, husband" < Goth brūþfaþs "bridegroom"[85] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-103)



horr; "scoundrel", horrë; "hussy, whore" < Goth hors "adulterer", *hora "whore"[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]



shkulkë; "boundary marker for pastures made of branches" < Late Latin sculca < Goth skulka "guardian"[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
shkumë; "foam" < Late Latin < Goth skūma[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
tirq; "trousers" < Late Latin tubrucus < Goth *þiobrok "knee-britches"; cf. OHG dioh-bruoh, Eng thigh, breeches[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]


After the Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs) arrived in the Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans), the Slavic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages) became an additional source of loanwords. The rise of the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) meant an influx of Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language)words; this also entailed the borrowing of Persian and Arabic words through Turkish. Many Albanian names (such as Enver Hoxha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enver_Hoxha)) are of Turkish origin. Some loanwords from Modern Greek also exist especially in the south of Albania. A lot of the borrowed words have been re-substituted from Albanian rooted words or modern Latinized (international) words.


E-V13 Widespread from south east balkans to Europe, do you have any info about E-V13? its all around this site, yet you have given me nothing on DNA similarities of ancient greece locations and albanians.

Pax Augusta
16-05-15, 12:52
It is nonsense. Modern Albanian has (in roughly chronological order) Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic and Turkish loanwords. .

Also Italian loanwords.

Source:

* Paolo Di Giovine, Dal dukát all'investitór: nove secoli di italiano in Albania (http://www.treccani.it/lingua_italiana/speciali/nazioni/digiovine.html)

* Brunilda Dashi, Italianismi nella lingua albanese, Edizioni Nuova Cultura, 2013 (https://books.google.it/books?id=xGFvGn8dheYC)



Clearly you don't read this chart right. Have a closer look.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6970&d=1419366716
Otherwise it is just an educated guess.


LeBrok, another educated guess.



http://news.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/sn-languages672H.jpg

http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2015/02/mysterious-indo-european-homeland-may-have-been-steppes-ukraine-and-russia


The sound of Proto-Indo-European

http://news.sciencemag.org/2015/02/sound-proto-indo-european

noUseForAname
22-05-15, 17:13
So we have Ancient Greek and Albanian language Split at 5,000 years ago, Ancient Greek 3,500 - Modern Albanian 1,000 - Modern Greek 500 years old.
This is from the written texts found, it might be much older.

It looks like the roots of modern Albanian language is Epirus - Roots of Ancient Greek Thessaly and Lydia.


http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/item/escidoc:1539154:7/component/escidoc:1539165/Bouckaert_2012.pdf
https://theoreticalecology.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/mapping-the-origins-and-expansion-of-the-indo-european-language-family/


http://www.mpi.nl/news/TreeoflanguagefamiliesMichaelDunnScience.jpg

noUseForAname
22-05-15, 18:20
Jez. Whoever claimed that was a complete crank, because its in complete ignorance of archaeology and linguistics... :vomitting:

- Sumerian is an isolate language.
- Urbanization and agriculture in the Near East and Egypt is older than in Europe. Archaeology does not lie there.
- Literacy in Mesopotamia (Cuneiform) and Egypt (hieroglyphs) is older than in Europe (Linear A would be the oldest true European writing), again.

Its the very east of Europe Thesaly and Lydia (south west modern Turkey)

Check above the roots of indo European Language (south west modern Turkey)
it might be that it started from there and spread the language 9,000 years ago, some East and some West....

You might be wrong here, Vinca Culture predates 8,000 years old, way before Egypt and Mesopotamia, Archaeology doesn't lie here

Taranis
23-05-15, 12:24
Its the very east of Europe Thesaly and Lydia (south west modern Turkey)

Check above the roots of indo European Language (south west modern Turkey)
it might be that it started from there and spread the language 9,000 years ago, some East and some West....

You might be wrong here, Vinca Culture predates 8,000 years old, way before Egypt and Mesopotamia, Archaeology doesn't lie here

There's several problems with that: that Bouckaert paper was discussed quite extensively a while back in this thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27713-Anatolia-is-the-source-of-Indo-European-languages), and it was dissected badly over there because it doesn't make any sense. Especially the proposed "homelands" don't make any sense (Balto-Slavic in particular, it assumes a homeland in an area where - at large - Slavic languages weren't spoken until the Migration Period), and the paper seemed utterly ignorant of obviously attested Indo-European languages like Celtiberian in Iberia, and the Scytho-Sarmatian languages in Central Asia.

Also, we don't know what kind of script the Vinca "script" was (or if it even was a real writing system at all), let alone what language it was used to write. Also, both Egyptian hieroglyphs and the Cuneiform script of Mesopotamia bear no relation to it. I'd also like to reiterate that the advent of agriculture was in the Near East, not in Europe. To me the idea "out of the Balkans, the light of civilization" sounds to me just like thinly-veiled Balkans nationalism where the modern-day nations of the Balkans (be it Albania, Serbia, or whatever country you want to pick) is insanely projected into the far prehistoric past and proclaimed to have been "always there" and "the mother of all civilization". Which is nonsense, obviously.

Garrick
23-05-15, 17:18
So we have Ancient Greek and Albanian language Split at 5,000 years ago, Ancient Greek 3,500 - Modern Albanian 1,000 - Modern Greek 500 years old.
This is from the written texts found, it might be much older.

It looks like the roots of modern Albanian language is Epirus - Roots of Ancient Greek Thessaly and Lydia.



But comprehensive research conducted by New Zealand scientists says different.

According that study Albanian has the same roots as Indo-Iranian languages, for example Baluchi (Iranian) or Singhalese (Indic), neither Greek nor Armenian.

This could mean that Albanian is not Balkan language and the ancestors of today's Albanians originating from the today's territory of Northwest Iran or the Southeast Caucasus, somewhere near the Caspian Sea.

On the other hand according these scholars Greek and Armenian have same root but they were separated more than 4000 years BC.

http://news.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/thumb_article_l/public/article_images/2003112611.jpg?itok=Uw7Mi954

hrvat22
23-05-15, 18:04
Taranis (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/28410-Taranis)


sounds to me just like thinly-veiled Balkans nationalism where the modern-day nations of the Balkans (be it Albania, Serbia, or whatever country you want to pick) is insanely projected into the far prehistoric past and proclaimed to have been "always there" and "the mother of all civilization". Which is nonsense, obviously.

Croats are not always on the Balkans at least these present. I2a haplogroup is European and has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans

Croats originally were not Indo-Europeans, but they have become Slavs and Indo-Europeans in White Croatia or southern Poland, where they began to speak Slavic language and genetic partly became Indo European nation mixing with Slavic tribes R1a haplotype..

All those on the Balkans who have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 and earlier mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250 come from White Croatia as Croats who later divided into Slovenes, Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, Montenegrins....language they speak is Croatian language while in Slovenia is Slovenian....

Maybe there were people, probably are with I2a haplogroups earlier on the Balkans but today Croats genetically come from southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine or White Croatia and have nothing to do with Vinca etc...

Serbs are partly Albanian origin and they have second haplotype in population E1b haplogroup which is probably native in Balkans and they are partly always on the Balkans as well large part of Albanians so they could have something with vinca culture if is E1b haplotype on Balkans 7000 years old, if not then they have nothing to do with Vinca...It is the logic

Ike
23-05-15, 18:15
@Hrvat22

The way you interpreted haplogroups is distressing for all the people who are into subject :)

hrvat22
23-05-15, 18:32
@Hrvat22

The way you interpreted haplogroups is distressing for all the people who are into subject :)

Croat has haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356, earlier mutation is I2a1b2a1a S17250 that has a source in southern Poland and south-western Ukraine....

Only people and state mentioned there is a White Croatia..

Which origin is Bosnian with that haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 ....he arrived in the same hour and minute from the same place as his neighboring Croat... They came from White Croatia and one is Bosnian, one is Montenegrin, one is Serbian one is Croatian... They have the same common ancestor in White Croatia


The way you interpreted haplogroups is distressing

The way I interpreted haplogroups is logic...Obvious is that Croats came from White Croatia as Montenegrins..

Ike
23-05-15, 19:24
The way I interpreted haplogroups is logic...

Something like this, or there are mistakes in my interpretation of your interpretation?

7261

hrvat22
23-05-15, 20:10
Something like this, or there are mistakes in my interpretation of your interpretation?

7261


For Bulgaria and Romania has yet to be see .... Most of the Bosnians, Montenegrins, Serbs, Slovenians less, all those who have mutation Y3548 are White Croatian origin..

People with mutation Y3548 now exist in Bulgaria, Belarus, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Russia ...which means that migration White Croats were in different directions and how much people have White Croatian origin in these countries remains to be seen... In Bosnians, Montenegrins and Serbs White Croatian or Croatian origin has half or little less of these population..in other populations remains to see percentage of haplotypes with this mutation...then you can draw a new map...

Garrick
23-05-15, 20:38
All those on the Balkans who have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 and earlier mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250 come from White Croatia as Croats who later divided into Slovenes, Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, Montenegrins....language they speak is Croatian language while in Slovenia is Slovenian....



It is useless.

On one side we do not know a lot and science is trying to establish the facts through numerous studies.

On the other side haplogroups have nothing to do with nations.

That you're talking about is not a science, not even pseudoscience.

It will take plenty of water Sava and Danube while science does not consider all the dices, every new research can contribute to that direction, but it can refute previous opinions.

LeBrok
23-05-15, 21:38
\

The way I interpreted haplogroups is logic. Do you mean: "My romantic vision of imaginary history"?

hrvat22
24-05-15, 07:12
I'm not a nationalist. We had Serbs who have been taught us that we are all Serbs. Because we speak the same language, we have the same customs, etc. then came genetics and everything has turned...

It is no secret that a large number of Croats during the Turks in Bosnia and Croatia crossing to Islam and Orthodoxy ..it was logical ... Today they are Bosnians and Serbs ..and it is quite evident in genetics ...
In the record is mentions Great Croatia and it is visible on the genealogy tree that White Croats scatter in all directions through europe...


Porphyrogenitus stated that one family of White Croats settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia...
Priest of Duklja wrote about Red and White Croatia all the way to Albania ...

Therefore it is genetically confirmed.

Serbs coming from area of Lusatian Serbs to Greek and from a little village in Greek they settling half Balkans ... It's genetic unconfirmed, therefore Porphyrogenitus speaks about Serbs based on settlement of Croats and position of 10th century when in fact in these area existed Serbia..

1526 Turks take inventory of troops in that area (Bosnia, southwestern Serbia and Montenegro) and there is not a single soldier which is Serb...
There exist Anadoli or Turk, Bosnian and Croat soldier.. In present-day southern Serbia is heart of Serbia and there was soldiers who declare themselves as Croats as well as in Montenegro and eastern Bosnia, where Serbs living now ...and it was all Serbian one hundred years earlier in the history...

I remind you that it was after Battle of Nicopolis where are Turks together with Serbs as allies fought against Christian europe..so there is no reason why anyone year 1526 should not declared as Serbian soldier...


I note that parts of these nations are Croatian origin not all nations... among Serbs the second haplotype in population is Vlach, Albanian E1b, among Croats is third in population, etc. Croats are partly Vlach or Albanian origin...

Yetos
24-05-15, 12:07
I'm not a nationalist. We had Serbs who have been taught us that we are all Serbs. Because we speak the same language, we have the same customs, etc. then came genetics and everything has turned...

It is no secret that a large number of Croats during the Turks in Bosnia and Croatia crossing to Islam and Orthodoxy ..it was logical ... Today they are Bosnians and Serbs ..and it is quite evident in genetics ...
In the record is mentions Great Croatia and it is visible on the genealogy tree that White Croats scatter in all directions through europe...


Porphyrogenitus stated that one family of White Croats settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia...
Priest of Duklja wrote about Red and White Croatia all the way to Albania ...

Therefore it is genetically confirmed.

Serbs coming from area of Lusatian Serbs to Greek and from a little village in Greek they settling half Balkans ... It's genetic unconfirmed, therefore Porphyrogenitus speaks about Serbs based on settlement of Croats and positionhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#19880273) of 10th century when in fact in these area existed Serbia..

1526 Turks take inventory of troops in that area (Bosnia, southwestern Serbia and Montenegro) and there is not a single soldier which is Serb...
There exist Anadoli or Turk, Bosnian and Croat soldier.. In present-day southern Serbia is heart of Serbia and there was soldiers who declare themselves as Croats as well as in Montenegro and eastern Bosnia, where Serbs livinghttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#10127685) now ...and it was all Serbian one hundred years earlier in the history...

I remind you that it was after Battle of Nicopolis where are Turks together with Serbs as allies fought against Christian europe..so there is no reason why anyone year 1526 should not declared as Serbian soldier...


I note that parts of these nations are Croatian origin not all nations... among Serbs the second haplotype in population is Vlach, Albanian E1b, among Croats is third in population, etc. Croats are partly Vlach or Albanian origin...

The problem among Croatia and Serbia is that they show the closest linguistic relativity, to be even consideredhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#60502426) as one language, common geneticks in the core, but different around the core,
now the religious difference, and later historical split due to politicks is another case, awayhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#88633711) from me to discuss,
the strange in Croatia is that shows, 2 different distributions of Data, one in the Alps and west, and one east of Alps.
now the east of Alps is relative with Bosnia Srbia even Skopje Bulgaria Romania

that means that if we follow the east part (Zagreb) maybe original tribe/nation of Croats was same/relative with rest south slavic
but if we follow the west one the Dinaric Dalmatian tottaly away from rest south slavic, since the next relative HG spot are in Poland and Germany or Greece and lacks in rest south Slavic

hrvat22
24-05-15, 13:01
The problem among Croatia and Serbia is that they show the closest linguistic relativity, to be even consideredhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#60502426) as one language, common geneticks in the core, but different around the core,
now the religious difference, and later historical split due to politicks is another case, awayhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#88633711) from me to discuss,
the strange in Croatia is that shows, 2 different distributions of Data, one in the Alps and west, and one east of Alps.
now the east of Alps is relative with Bosnia Srbia even Skopje Bulgaria Romania

that means that if we follow the east part (Zagreb) maybe original tribe/nation of Croats was same/relative with rest south slavic
but if we follow the west one the Dinaric Dalmatian tottaly away from rest south slavic, since the next relative HG spot are in Poland and Germany or Greece and lacks in rest south Slavic



that means that if we follow the east part (Zagreb) maybe original tribe/nation of Croats was same/relative with rest south slavic

Slovenians have mainly Dinaric north, he does not exist anymore but I think that Bulgarians and Macedonians had mainly this type haplotype ... therefore differences between the west and the south Balkans are not visible..

It should see what types I2a have Macedonians, Bulgarians and Slovenians...



f we follow the west one the Dinaric Dalmatian tottaly away from rest south slavic, since the next relative HG spot are in Poland and Germany or Greece and lacks in rest south Slavic


In southern Poland is ancestor of Croatian I2a ... in the German and Greek I do not know which are haplotypes so you explain which haplotypes are there..

Garrick
24-05-15, 14:28
I'm not a nationalist. We had Serbs who have been taught us that we are all Serbs. Because we speak the same language, we have the same customs, etc. then came genetics and everything has turned...

It is no secret that a large number of Croats during the Turks in Bosnia and Croatia crossing to Islam and Orthodoxy ..it was logical ... Today they are Bosnians and Serbs ..and it is quite evident in genetics ...
In the record is mentions Great Croatia and it is visible on the genealogy tree that White Croats scatter in all directions through europe...



And probably larger part of Serbs in the time of Ottoman Empire converted to Islam and Roman Catholic faith (later small number is converted to Protestantism). And Serbs were Roman Catholic in substantial numbers before Ottoman Empire came to the Balkans. And what?

It doesn't matter. Today's nations are social constructions, not genetic. Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs have same genetics (Y-DNA), no matter whether I2a, E-V13 etc. Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christians who converted in Islam today are Bosniacs, the same is true for those who have converted to Catholicism, they are Croats today, and for those who have converted to Orthodox Christianity, they are Serbs. But haplogroups of these male people are same.

Nations and religions have nothing to do with haplogroups.

If someone wants find differences between male Croats, Serbs, Bosniacs, etc. he or she can analyze R1a.

Clades of R1a have differences:

http://s13.postimg.org/m9byqefpj/R1a_Slowian_2.png
http://s23.postimg.org/p95dqwoor/Chart_R1a.png
According it is:


Much better thanks.

I can see few groups, proportionally regarding R1a clads to each other.



Slavs that group together.

- Serbs, Bosniaks, Macedonians and some Russian and Belarusian places.

- Poles, Slovaks (but not Wroclaw, many citizens come from Ukraine and Belarus).

- Croatians with Czechs.

- Bulgarians with Russians from Kostroma and Ivano-Frankfurt

- Slovenia is standing out.

Z282 seems to be East European


This is for a quick glance only.

Plus Herzegovina, Macedonia, Serbia not only are similar but have the lowest percentage of R1a (plus in Serbia was found R1a Z95 that is different than typical clades of population of Slavic countires).

hrvat22
24-05-15, 15:28
Garrick (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/28714-Garrick)





Plus Herzegovina, Macedonia, Serbia not only are similar but have the lowest percentage of R1a


Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs have same genetics (Y-DNA),

How we have same genetics when you have less R1a haplotype then Croats..

Second haplotype in the Serbian population is E1b type ... and that is different between Serbs and Croats in which on the second place in population is R1a..


And probably larger part of Serbs in the time of Ottoman Empire converted to Islam and Roman Catholic faith

Turks fought against Catholic Europe and the Serbs as Turkish allies switch to Catholicism ..... do not fool around...


And Serbs were Roman Catholic in substantial numbers before Ottoman Empire came to the Balkans. And what?

religion, language, customs, can not to change genes .. still on the Balkans comes only Croats who later divided and become this or that ... that is genetically irrefutably...

It is not possible that from White Croatia comes Bosnians, Turks, Chinese and Germans .. they can come only and exclusively as Croats...it is logic..how they feel today, and which nation they belong can not change their White Croatian origin...

Yetos
24-05-15, 16:37
Slovenians have mainly Dinaric north, he does not exist anymore but I think that Bulgarians and Macedonians had mainly this type haplotype ... therefore differences between the west and the south Balkans are not visible..

It should see what types I2a have Macedonians, Bulgarians and Slovenians...





In southern Poland is ancestor of Croatian I2a ... in the German and Greek I do not know which are haplotypes so you explain which haplotypes are there..

I think, and from what I can read,
Croatia has primary R1a in the west of Dinaric Alps, and I2 in the east,
I2 is also very high and relative/common with Bosnia Srbia Bulgaria and Skopje and considerable in Romania.
Bosnia Serbia Croatia for linguists is almost the same language that evolute after 800 Ad
plz when you say Makedonia, identify, cause Greece has high enough R1a in Makedonia bigger than any other Balkan country except Dalmatia. even bigger than Zagreb area
so R1a is showing Greece, none, Dalmatia, none, Poland Germany,
meaning that in Bulgaria Romania we know that is from the Severi and came from the east of Europe,
but in Bosnia Serbia came from abone Hungary,
so, I am not speaking about Croatia, a country and modern nationality, but for the 'original' tribe/nation before 1500 years
if it was I2 or R1a,
the distribution of R1a and I2 in Crotia shows clearly what I am saying,
so what do you believe?
original Hrvats/Croats before 1500 were I2? or R1a? I mean the ones in Zagreb I2 core? or the ones in Dalmatia R1a core?

the existance of E is another case, as also the J the R1b, which are connected possibly with substractum populations like R1b can be from Mycenean times (vatin and Vucocar) or Celtic/Aromani plus R1a from 5,5ky from Vinca destruction or recent Slavic from times of Cymeon or Dusan ( I doupt, concentrations reaching more than 28% have not beeen found in found Balkans except Dalmatia)

Personally I believe that 'original' tribal' Croats are the Zagreb area ones, and were and are connected with Serbs and Bosnians, but created their own culture and nationality, as also the Bosnians, and Serbs and not the Dalmatian R1a ones,
in case of oposite, R1a to was the primary of 'tribal croats, the linguistic relativity can not be explained with rest South Slavs.

I think you understand me well, but it is difficult for you to choose, cause modern ethnicities, are 'what we have'

LeBrok
24-05-15, 16:42
As I said before, judging by ratio of R1a clads Croatians relate the most to Czechs. Also not too far from Ukrainian Czerkasy region. It is what genetic says, it is logic!

http://s23.postimg.org/p95dqwoor/Chart_R1a.png

hrvat22
24-05-15, 17:04
As I said before, judging by ratio of R1a clads Croatians relate the most to Czechs. Also not too far from Ukrainian Czerkasy region. It is what genetic says, it is logic!

http://s23.postimg.org/p95dqwoor/Chart_R1a.png


What's wrong with you ?

Croats do not have R1a M458, they have R1a Z280 type...I told you that a hundred times..

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=ymap

Croats haplogroup R1a represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subclade Z280 CTS3402

I. Rozhansky

2013/10/18


http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/

Garrick
24-05-15, 17:19
How we have same genetics when you have less R1a haplotype then Croats..

Second haplotype in the Serbian population is E1b type ... and that is different between Serbs and Croats in which on the second place in population is R1a..


Yes, Y-DNA is same/similar, the difference is in proportion.

You can see in Eupedia (where Maciamo collected all scientific studies):

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I1: Serbia 8.5%, Croatia 5.5% (Do you think that someone can knows according I1 who is Serb, who is Croat?)

I2a: Serbia 33%, Croatia 37% (Do you think that someone can knows according I2a who is Serb, who is Croat?)

R1a: Serbia 16%, Croatia 24% (Do you think that someone can knows according R1a who is Serb, who is Croat? Maybe only for Z95, and other atypical clades of population of Slavic countries which exist in Serbia).

R1b: Serbia 8.5%, Croatia 8.5% (same question).

G: Serbia 2%, Croatia 2.5% (same question).

J2: Serbia 8%, Croatia 6% (same question).

E-V13: Serbia 18%, Croatia 10% (same question; this is difference only in proportion, and not drastically big).

T: Serbia 1%, Croatia 0.5% (same question).

Q: Serbia 1.5%, Croatia 1% (same question).

N: Serbia 2%, Croatia 0.5% (same question).



Turks fought against Catholic Europe and the Serbs as Turkish allies switch to Catholicism ..... do not fool around...

Maybe you don't know the history or you're malicious?

Turks destroyed Serbian state.

Serbs have been for centuries one of the main ally of Austria and Hungary against the Turks.

For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Serbia#Austrian-Ottoman_War

Austria and Serbia European powers, and Austria in particular, fought many wars against the Ottoman Empire, relying on the help of the Serbs that lived under Ottoman rule. During the Austrian–Turkish War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian-Turkish_War) (1593–1606), in 1594, the Serbs staged an uprising in Banat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat), the Pannonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_plain) part of Turkey. Sultan Murad III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murad_III) retaliated by burning the remains of Saint Sava (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sava) the most sacred saint of all Serbs. Serbs created another center of resistance in Herzegovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzegovina), but when peace was signed by Turkey and Austria, they were abandoned to Turkish vengeance. This sequence of events became usual in the centuries that followed.


About Military Frontier (Military Krajina):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Frontier

Military Frontier or Military Border (Serbian/Croatian Vojna granica, Vojna Krajina)The Military Frontier (also known as Military Border and Military Krajina; Croatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_language): Vojna granica, Vojna krajina; Serbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language): Vojna granica / Војна граница, Vojna krajina / Војна Крајина; Slovene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_language): Vojna krajina; German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language): Militärgrenze; Hungarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_language): Katonai határőrvidék; Romanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language): Graniţă militară) was a borderland of Habsburg Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburg_Monarchy) and later the Austro-Hungarian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian_Empire), which acted as the cordon sanitaire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordon_sanitaire) against incursions from the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire).


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Militargrenze,_Wojwodowena_und_Banat.jpg

Demographics:

1857The first modern population census in the Austrian Empire was conducted in 1857 and recorded the religion of the population. The population of the Military Frontier numbered 1,062,072 inhabitants,[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Frontier#cite_note-10) while the religious structure of the Military Frontier was:



587,269 (55,30%) Eastern Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox)
448,703 (42,26%) Roman Catholics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholics)
20,139 (1,91%) Protestants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestants)
5,533 (0,53%) Greek Catholics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Catholics)
404 (0,05%) Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews)


Population data by divisions:


Croatian-Slavonian Military Frontier (Total 675,817)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Frontier#cite_note-11)



396,843 (58,72%) Roman Catholics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholics)
272,755 (40,36%) Eastern Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox)
5,486 (0,81%) Greek Catholics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Catholics)
733 (0,11%) others


Banat Military Frontier (Total 386,255)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Frontier#cite_note-12)



314,514 (81,43%) Eastern Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox)
51,860 (13,43%) Roman Catholics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholics)
19,418 (5,03%) Evangelists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism)
393 (0,1%) Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews)
70 (0,01%) others


Someone can reads:

Eastern Orthodox = Serbs;
Roman Catholics = mainly Croats and Hungarians.

You can see Serbs, Croats, Hungarians, Germans etc. were on the same side in wars with Ottomans.

Austrian Turkish wars were from 16th to 18th century.



It is not possible that from White Croatia comes Bosnians, Turks, Chinese and Germans .. they can come only and exclusively as Croats...it is logic..how they feel today, and which nation they belong can not change their White Croatian origin...

You can read what LeBrok wrote:


Do you mean: "My romantic vision of imaginary history"?

...
By the way.

It is completely wrong to think that a haplogroup comes from some of the nation.

At a time when haplogroups emerged nation did not exist.

Nations have formed incomparably much later from carriers of different haplogroups and they are social constructions.

hrvat22
24-05-15, 17:44
Yetos (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/29729-Yetos)


the existance of E is another case, as also the J the R1b, which are connected possibly with substractum populations like R1b can be from Mycenean times (vatin and Vucocar) or Celtic/Aromani plus R1a from 5,5ky from Vinca destruction or recent Slavic from times of Cymeon or Dusan ( I doupt, concentrations reaching more than 28% have not beeen found in found Balkans except Dalmatia)

Whether is E1b Chinese, Russian, Turkish or Mycenean does not matter because in Croatia they coming with Vlach people.....E1b is Albanian today so this Vlacs are part of Albanian origin...whether they were before Chinese, Turks or Greeks for me is not important because I'm not interested with this haplogroup and I do not know...If it is proved that E1b comes from Greek to Albania when it was mentioned Greek state or Greek(Hellenes) as people then E1b could be Greek origin. If ancestors of White Croats live in southe Poland I can not say that these are White Croats because there is no mention White Croats before 2,000 thousand years...There at that time live there some other tribes for which I can not confirm that they are White Croats because are not mentioned as Croats same with Mycenean in Greece...You can Myceneans call Greeks but they're not called Greeks they are Myceneans..Only if their haplotypes same with Greek then we could say that this is one nation ..

hrvat22
24-05-15, 17:52
Garrick (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/28714-Garrick)



Serbs have been for centuries one of the main ally of Austria and Hungary against the Turks.


Battle of Nicopolis


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nicopolis



Do you think that someone can knows according I2a who is Serb, who is Croat?

If it has haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 and mutation I-Y3548 (http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3548/) everything is clearly his ancestors come to the Balkans as Croats...It is the logic...




587,269 (55,30%) Eastern Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox)



most part of them they Orthodox Vlachs or Albanians by genetic and Croatians... smaller number of them were Serbian origin

Yetos
24-05-15, 17:59
Whether is E1b Chinese, Russian, Turkish or Mycenean does not matter because in Croatia they coming with Vlach people.....E1b is Albanian today so this Vlacs are part of Albanian origin...whether they were before Chinese, Turks or Greeks for me is not important because I'm not interested with this haplogroup and I do not know...If it is proved that E1b comes from Greek to Albania when it was mentioned Greek state or Greek(Hellenes) as people then E1b could be Greek origin. If ancestors of White Croats live in southe Poland I can not say that these are White Croats because there is no mention White Croats before 2,000 thousand years...There at that time live there some other tribes for which I can not confirm that they are White Croats because are not mentioned as Croats same with Mycenean in Greece...You can Myceneans call Greeks but they're not called Greeks they are Myceneans..Only if their haplotypes same with Greek then we could say that this is one nation ..

you avoid answer me, and you say tottaly different,

plz read again, and aswer me clearly,

hrvat22
24-05-15, 18:16
Yetos (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/29729-Yetos)


Personally I believe that 'original' tribal' Croats are the Zagreb area ones, and were and are connected with Serbs and Bosnians, but created their own culture and nationality, as also the Bosnians, and Serbs and not the Dalmatian R1a ones,
in case of oposite, R1a to was the primary of 'tribal croats, the linguistic relativity can not be explained with rest South Slavs.

In the western Croatia I2a is in second place, first is R1a .... this same type R1a has a big part of 16 percent Serbs in Serbia ...Serbs have E1b haplotype second in population which has no connection with immigration Slavs and with Slavs, and western Croatia is something else...What's your logic ? ...What does language, folk customs have with genes, E1b is not Slavic haplotype and in Serbia 20 percent of the population with that haplotype speak Slavic..

hrvat22
24-05-15, 18:24
Yetos (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/29729-Yetos)



the distribution of R1a and I2 in Crotia shows clearly what I am saying,
so what do you believe?
original Hrvats/Croats before 1500 were I2? or R1a? I mean the ones in Zagreb I2 core? or the ones in Dalmatia R1a core?

Croatian type R1a has epicenter in southern Poland around Krakow...whether is there his source I do not know but we can assume ....when the first data about that arrive then we can talk about it, until then I do not know..

hrvat22
24-05-15, 18:28
you avoid answer me, and you say tottaly different,

plz read again, and aswer me clearly,

Ask me......

Garrick
24-05-15, 19:18
Battle of Nicopolis


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nicopolis


And it is irrelevant to the general conclusion. Serbia was at that time a vassal state.

Incomparably more important that the Serbs were the allies of Austria and Hungary by centuries. Serbs were defending long southern border against the Turks. And for it Serbs were highly regarded by the Austrian emperors.




If it has haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 and mutation I-Y3548 (http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3548/) everything is clearly his ancestors come to the Balkans as Croats...It is the logic...



It is only your logic.

Every man who has that haplogroup and he is not Croat you say to him: "You must be Croat because I say it".
...

Nations are not genetic categories.



most part of them they Orthodox Vlachs or Albanians by genetic and Croatians... smaller number of them were Serbian origin

And here you try to be malicious, but why, you don't like... ?


I gave sources with Wikipedia, here is more:

http://feefhs.org/links/croatia/milz.html

In order to stem the Turkish tide, the Habsburg court created in 1528 a zone in Croatia ruled directly from Vienna (instead of through the Hungarian nobility), in which land ownership was dependent on providing military service. These frontier troops were predominantly Serb, Croat and German. This zone was called the Militär Grenze (Military Frontier, Vojna krajina).
...

Rieber, A. The Struggle for the Eurasian Borderlands

https://books.google.rs/books?id=s6roAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=Military+Border+Frontier+Austria+Serbs&source=bl&ots=7bgvKFqKoA&sig=bXmxbgOLKEYkp6emVNFZ8OJ4HLs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2PlhVZy0NoGgyAOUuYDIDg&ved=0CEIQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Military%20Border%20Frontier%20Austria%20Serbs&f=false

The soldiers, mainly Serbs, who had served during the war received tax free farm plots as frontier colonists. Their dual function was to protect the borders against the Turks... The Austrians attempted to separate the civil (tax-paying) and military (tax-exempt) elements among the Serbs...

...

http://www.h-net.org/~fisher/bosnia/readings/Jelavich3.html

The Serbian population of the empire lived in circumstances quite different from those of the majority of the inhabitants of the Habsburg Empire. They controlled no definite portion of territory, and they were of the Orthodox religion, which was under attack in other parts of the monarchy.

...
Billinis A., The Eagles Has Two Faces

https://books.google.rs/books?id=jrjjTX2WWCkC&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=Military+Border+Frontier+Austria+Serbs&source=bl&ots=LyFHvHlTek&sig=Lioib44gzW1R2JhHD1BQp0bCEbg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ov5hVbXyHuqrygO40YHACw&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Military%20Border%20Frontier%20Austria%20Serbs&f=false

Serbian irregulars had fought doggedly and well for the Austrians, and Serbs certainly posseded a hattred of the Turks and the desire to live in a more developed society and economy.

...
Sorry hrvat22.

There were no Albanians in Krajina. In Military Krajina (Frontier Border) orthodox Chrisitans were Serbs (and partly in Banat, Romanians).
...

I have no desire to bicker with you, you can find some another person.

But I will tell you why I appreciate Tito. He has tried to build brotherhood and unity and elevates above the destructive nationalisms of all kinds. He was on the right track when Yugoslav communists won the war. They made a solid basis but nationalists have acted and with support from outside they tried to undermine foundations of SFRY. Maybe that Tito allowed democratization of the country in the seventies, when he was alive, maybe the whole country was in the EU as Spain in eighties, and maybe we all would have much higher standard, and ethnic differences were as in another european multinational countries.
...

But it doesn't matter. This is not topic about Mlitary Krajina, or Croatia or another Slavic countries, etc., this is thread about Pelasgians and their DNA.

Yetos
24-05-15, 19:27
In the western Croatia I2a is in second place, first is R1a .... this same type R1a has a big part of 16 percent Serbs in Serbia ...Serbs have E1b haplotype second in population which has no connection with immigration Slavs and with Slavs, and western Croatia is something else...What's your logic ? ...What does language, folk customs have with genes, E1b is not Slavic haplotype and in Serbia 20 percent of the population with that haplotype speak Slavic..

ok to put the question correct,
First we exclude E J G R1b I1 as previous, before slavic migrations, synthesis, as non characteristic of 'tribal' Serbs or Croats

then we see the 2 major or possible hgs I2 and R1a
then we see the distribution in wide balkans,
the result is that in Croatia the R1a is high west of Dinaric Alps and low East,
while I2 is high in East, in Zagreb area,
watching Bosnia we see also something simmilar, and same in Serbia, while the r1a/I2 in more south Skopje IS OBVIOUS, south lacks of R1a, you have to travelhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#89666276) to mainland Greek Makedonia Thessaly to find again considerable R1a quantities,

so my question is,
what do you believe?
original tribal Croats were R1a or I2?
if you
notice and observe locally maps and distribution its easy to understand what I am talking about,
cause if Croats were major I2 as ALL THE REST SOUTH SLAVIC, Then they possibly were 'relatives' with Bosnians and Serbs and even Skopje,
but if Croats were primary R1a then Croats have nothing to do with rest South Slavic populations of I2,
and the strange the thesis of Linguists which gave Hravt and Srbian as dialects coming from one same language. (I consider Bosnian if we can identify as dialect/language, sprunk also from that)

hrvat22
24-05-15, 22:37
ok to put the question correct,
First we exclude E J G R1b I1 as previous, before slavic migrations, synthesis, as non characteristic of 'tribal' Serbs or Croats

then we see the 2 major or possible hgs I2 and R1a
then we see the distribution in wide balkans,
the result is that in Croatia the R1a is high west of Dinaric Alps and low East,
while I2 is high in East, in Zagreb area,
watching Bosnia we see also something simmilar, and same in Serbia, while the r1a/I2 in more south Skopje IS OBVIOUS, south lacks of R1a, you have to travelhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#89666276) to mainland Greek Makedonia Thessaly to find again considerable R1a quantities,

so my question is,
what do you believe?
original tribal Croats were R1a or I2?
if you
notice and observe locally maps and distribution its easy to understand what I am talking about,
cause if Croats were major I2 as ALL THE REST SOUTH SLAVIC, Then they possibly were 'relatives' with Bosnians and Serbs and even Skopje,
but if Croats were primary R1a then Croats have nothing to do with rest South Slavic populations of I2,
and the strange the thesis of Linguists which gave Hravt and Srbian as dialects coming from one same language. (I consider Bosnian if we can identify as dialect/language, sprunk also from that)


f Croats were major I2 as ALL THE REST SOUTH SLAVIC, Then they possibly were 'relatives' with Bosnians and Serbs and even Skopje,


what relatives .... I2a1b2a1a3 A356 haplotype comes from White Croatia with Croatian people to balkans who later become Bosnians, Montenegrins, etc ...what if that haplotype exists in Macedonia or Bulgaria.. same exists in Belarus, Ukraine, Slovenia, Russia and still has its source in White Croatia...Albanian E1b exists in Croatia, and again this E1b is Albanian origin, what does it matter if exists in Croatia or Slovenia..I told you that I do not know that in Macedonia exists I2a1b2a1a3 A356 haplotype...give me data which is Macedonian and Bulgarian I2a..there are more haplotypes who have White Croatian mutation....

I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a1 Z16971
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a2 Y4882
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983



the result is that in Croatia the R1a is high west of Dinaric Alps and low East,
while I2 is high in East, in Zagreb area,

So what then, when we get data for age and time R1a Z280 in Balkans then we can talk, until then we can talk fairy tales .. Only thing I know is that the R1a has epicenter in the area where is source of Croatian I2a, whether it is related or not we will see...


Russian geneticist
I. Rozhansky
2013/10/18

Apparently White Croats from Carpathians and Croats to the Adriatic they are really related peoples. About Lusatian Sorbs and Danubian Serbs we can not say - they are too different lineage ...


http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/


but if Croats were primary R1a then Croats have nothing to do with rest South Slavic populations of I2,

How can be R1a primary when I2a which Croats have is formed in White Croatia and is in the epicenter of Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Dalmatia up to 70 percent....

It is logical that for Croats is primary I2a...It possible that is R1a formed in the southern Poland and then he will be primary for Croats along with I2a haplotype...


and the strange the thesis of Linguists which gave Hravt and Srbian as dialects coming from one same language. (I consider Bosnian if we can identify as dialect/language, sprunk also from that

If we cam as one people Croats which language we are speak, logically Croatian..

Garrick
25-05-15, 00:15
ok to put the question correct,
First we exclude E J G R1b I1 as previous, before slavic migrations, synthesis, as non characteristic of 'tribal' Serbs or Croats

then we see the 2 major or possible hgs I2 and R1a
then we see the distribution in wide balkans,
the result is that in Croatia the R1a is high west of Dinaric Alps and low East,
while I2 is high in East, in Zagreb area,
watching Bosnia we see also something simmilar, and same in Serbia, while the r1a/I2 in more south Skopje IS OBVIOUS, south lacks of R1a, you have to travelhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#89666276) to mainland Greek Makedonia Thessaly to find again considerable R1a quantities,

so my question is,
what do you believe?
original tribal Croats were R1a or I2?
if you
notice and observe locally maps and distribution its easy to understand what I am talking about,
cause if Croats were major I2 as ALL THE REST SOUTH SLAVIC, Then they possibly were 'relatives' with Bosnians and Serbs and even Skopje,
but if Croats were primary R1a then Croats have nothing to do with rest South Slavic populations of I2,
and the strange the thesis of Linguists which gave Hravt and Srbian as dialects coming from one same language. (I consider Bosnian if we can identify as dialect/language, sprunk also from that)

He thinks in terms: nation = haplogroup (for example: I2a DYN S are Croats, E-V13 are Albanians etc.), but it is nonsense. And every reasonable discussion is not possible.

But you showed him that the people of Herzegovina and the Croatian mainland is very different in haplogroups.

He didn't told me next questions:

Do you think that someone can knows according I1a (or another haplogroup) who is Serb, who is Croat?

I2a: Serbia 33% about 1.170.000 males, Croatia 37% about 790.000 males.

There are much more males I2a carriers In Serbia than in Croatia.

And some Serbian nationalist can say: I2a are Serbs by origin, they are from White Serbia.

Nationalists are as children.
...

But we are trying to come up with some knowledge. You can see in this forum opinions are divided: if I2a Dyn S is Balkan origin or I2a carriers came from North.

Mihaitzateo gives one interesting research:


Here is a genetic study about Aromanians:
Lowest Y DNA I they have is 17%:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#Genetic_studies
Highest I they got is 42%.
Also,they got plenty of J2 and plenty of R1b.
Also,they have low R1A,some group of Aromanians even have 0% R1A.
So guess again what Y DNA mostly brought the Slavic speakers that moved around 600 AD.
I think it is R1A clades.



Sample population

Sample size
R1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29)
R1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_%28Y-DNA%29)
I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29)
E1b1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29)
E1b1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1a_%28Y-DNA%29)
J (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_%28Y-DNA%29)
G (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29)
N (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_%28Y-DNA%29)
T (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_%28Y-DNA%29)
L (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L_%28Y-DNA%29)


Aromanians from Dukasi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fier_County), Albania[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#cite_note-Bosch2006-62)

39
2.6
2.6
17.9
17.9
0.0
48.7
10.3
0.0
0.0
0.0


Aromanians from Andon Poci (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokast%C3%ABr_District), Albania[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#cite_note-Bosch2006-62)

19
36.8
0.0
42.1
15.8
0.0
5.3
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Aromanians from Kruševo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo), Macedonia[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#cite_note-Bosch2006-62)

43
27.9
11.6
20.9
20.9
0.0
11.6
7.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Aromanians from Štip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0tip_Municipality), Macedonia[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#cite_note-Bosch2006-62)

65
23.1
21.5
16.9
18.5
0.0
20.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Aromanians in Romania[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#cite_note-Bosch2006-62)

42
23.8
2.4
19.0
7.1
0.0
33.3
0.0





(the link to the study :
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/epdf - Romanians in this study are also high on I1 and R1B but not that high in R1A)
Please note that Aromanians that have highest R1A are those living in Macedonia/FYROM.
Quite clear from where they got the R1A,from Slavic males there.

According that Aromanians have significant percentage of haplogroup I (mainly I2a) but much lower percentage haplogroup R1a (except for Macedonia where it is possible that R1a came from Slavic males).

(But maybe Aromanians came from White Croatia or White Serbia, hm....)

And it is possible Thracians and Illyrians were I2a carriers. According Maciamo I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians.


I have given more thought about the origin of I2a-Din (L621>L147.2) and came to the following conclusion.

During the Mesolithic the I2a1 (P37.2) hunter-gatherers must have occupied a vast part of western, central and eastern Europe. Central and western European I2a1 lineages only survive at low frequencies in three newly identified subclades: L1286, L1294 and L880. The south-western M26 branch was absorbed by Neolithic farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture, whose descendants are found mostly in modern Sardinians and Basques.

The eastern branch, I2a1b (M423) were hunter-gatherers from the Carpathian region and/or from further north (Poland, Belarus, western Ukraine). Those in the Carpathian basin would have mixed with Middle Eastern Neolithic farmers and founded the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE). The whole region from Romania to Poland would then have been absorbed by the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware culture (2900-2400 BCE).

After being Indo-Europeanized, I2a-L621 would have become the dominant paternal lineage among southern Slavs, while R1a remained dominant among northern Slavs.

The presence of I2a-L621 in Romania and Bulgaria could be attributed to the migration of the ancient Dacians and Thracians, who emerged as a mixture of of indigenous peoples (I2a1b) and Indo-Europeans (R1a) sometime between 3000 and 1500 BCE.

The Illyrians, an IE tribe who conquered the territory of former Yugoslavia circa 1200-1000 BCE, might have been an offshoot from the Dacians or the Thracians, or a closely related tribe from the Carpathian basin.

I used to think that I2a1b in the Dinaric Alps were the remnants of the original hunter-gatherers and that only the I2a1b outside the Dinaric Alps and Balkans were integrated to the Corded Ware culture and became Proto-Slavs, then Slavs. However there is so little difference between the Dinaric and other Eastern European I2a1b, all belonging to the same deep subclade (L621>CTS4002>...>L147.2) that they must all descend from a fairly recent ancestor and have expanded no earlier than 3000 to 1500 BCE.

...
When Slavic peoples came to the Balkans probably I2a and R1a carriers already existed. One study in Serbia conducted from American scientists tells that R1a came to the Serbia three times in different epochs, and two times much earlier than with Slavic people (third time).

...
Yetos, what is important to reveal.

Original I2 languages. It is probably these languages existed but they dissapeared.

Today people in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia etc. speak Slavic language. It is same language every Serb, Bosniac and Croat can communicate each other without problems, because differences are minor.

There are opinions among some scientists that Thracian language was similar Balto Slavic, and Dacian, etc... It is not track.

But we are not without hope, maybe we can search some of I2 language but in another places (maybe Nuragic in Sardinia?).

...
Many more are not known. Important dices of knowledge is missing. Science is now going in the direction that reveals haplogroups Europeans in earlier epochs, and it brings significant new knowledge. When we know haplogroups of Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians and another peoples in Balkans in the past in different epocs (for example Vinca culture, Starcevo, Dudesti etc.), progress will be evident.

Ike
25-05-15, 00:35
I'm not a nationalist. We had Serbs who have been taught us that we are all Serbs. Because we speak the same language, we have the same customs, etc. then came genetics and everything has turned...

It is no secret that a large number of Croats during the Turks in Bosnia and Croatia crossing to Islam and Orthodoxy ..it was logical ... Today they are Bosnians and Serbs ..and it is quite evident in genetics ...
In the record is mentions Great Croatia and it is visible on the genealogy tree that White Croats scatter in all directions through europe...


Porphyrogenitus stated that one family of White Croats settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia...
Priest of Duklja wrote about Red and White Croatia all the way to Albania ...

Therefore it is genetically confirmed.


:useless:


The problem among Croatia and Serbia is that they show the closest linguistic relativity, to be even considered as one language, common geneticks in the core, but different around the core,
now the religious difference, and later historical split due to politicks is another case, awayhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#88633711) from me to discuss
It is a different lanaguge, as same as Australian and American are ;)



How we have same genetics when you have less R1a haplotype then Croats..
Second haplotype in the Serbian population is E1b type ... and that is different between Serbs and Croats in which on the second place in population is R1a..

You're intermixing Serbs and Serbians.



Personally I believe that 'original' tribal' Croats are the Zagreb area ones, and were and are connected with Serbs and Bosnians, but created their own culture and nationality, as also the Bosnians, and Serbs and not the Dalmatian R1a ones, in case of oposite, R1a to was the primary of 'tribal croats, the linguistic relativity can not be explained with rest South Slavs.

That's exactly what "real" Croats thought of themselves throughout the history. And they had disrespectful attitude towards the other part of population. Now that it turned out that there is more I2a on the territories that Croatian clergy would like to control, derogatory terminology evaporated and they started claiming the opposite - that those no good dirty peasants, as they once used to call them, are in fact the real Croats :)

It's funny to watch now, how nationalistic branches fight to be what they hated the most.


Whether is E1b Chinese, Russian, Turkish or Mycenean does not matter because in Croatia they coming with Vlach people.....E1b is Albanian today so this Vlacs are part of Albanian origin...whether they were before Chinese, Turks or Greeks for me is not important because I'm not interested with this haplogroup and I do not know....

Facepalm x2. Really? Today it is, and it wasn't before? How did it come to be Albanian? How does a nation gets an ownership over a haplogroup anyway?

hrvat22
25-05-15, 06:41
Ike (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/28725-Ike)



http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/useless.gif

In area of Ilirik, Dalmatia and Pannonia is maximum haplotypes which comes from White Croatia...Therefore claim of Porfirogenet that Croats inhabited Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia is correct...



That's exactly what "real" Croats thought of themselves throughout the history. And they had disrespectful attitude towards the other part of population. Now that it turned out that there is more I2a on the territories that Croatian clergy would like to control,


ahaha biggest nationalists in the history of Croatia, Croatian fascists are exactly Dalmatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina to Drina River seen as epicenter of Croatian people, what kind Zagreb hahaha...and without genetic research, it is now clear that they were right ... Genetics is relentless..


It's funny to watch now, how nationalistic branches fight to be what they hated the most.

Zagreb hahaha, therefore Croatian eternal politics is borders on Drina river...



Facepalm x2. Really? Today it is, and it wasn't before? How did it come to be Albanian? How does a nation gets an ownership over a haplogroup anyway?

Do you have information that in Croatia arrived Vlachs or Albanians...hhahaha

They are Albanian origin and they did not come as Albanians but Vlachs therefore I call them Vlachs...logic

noUseForAname
25-05-15, 07:11
There's several problems with that: that Bouckaert paper was discussed quite extensively a while back in this thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27713-Anatolia-is-the-source-of-Indo-European-languages), and it was dissected badly over there because it doesn't make any sense. Especially the proposed "homelands" don't make any sense (Balto-Slavic in particular, it assumes a homeland in an area where - at large - Slavic languages weren't spoken until the Migration Period), and the paper seemed utterly ignorant of obviously attested Indo-European languages like Celtiberian in Iberia, and the Scytho-Sarmatian languages in Central Asia.

Also, we don't know what kind of script the Vinca "script" was (or if it even was a real writing system at all), let alone what language it was used to write. Also, both Egyptian hieroglyphs and the Cuneiform script of Mesopotamia bear no relation to it. I'd also like to reiterate that the advent of agriculture was in the Near East, not in Europe. To me the idea "out of the Balkans, the light of civilization" sounds to me just like thinly-veiled Balkans nationalism where the modern-day nations of the Balkans (be it Albania, Serbia, or whatever country you want to pick) is insanely projected into the far prehistoric past and proclaimed to have been "always there" and "the mother of all civilization". Which is nonsense, obviously.

Looks like obviously you dont get my point, i never said first civilizations spread from the balkans cause obviously civilization in Mesopotamia and Egypt is much different then the one say Vinca Culture.

And Definitely Vinca Culture is not a predecessor of Mesopotamia and Egypt

But we were arguing cause you said archeology doesnt lie about Egypt and Mesapotamia, and i replied with "you are wrong" cause Vinca Culture predates 8,000 ybp and the archeology is there it doesnt lie, not with high pyramids nor high tech buildings nor high tech cultures (lol) but it has buildings objects and scripts, and as of now its not deciphered that it is from indo european language, but surely those people had their mouth to speak, so they could write and read through those scripts. Looks like its Archaic kind of writing or symbols which obviously have meaning and could communicate through those. However definitely not as complex writing as of PEI.
Yet again not through some high tech archeological buildings and cultures Europe is de facto older than Egypt and Mesopotamia, and thats Vinca Culture. Do you agree or disagree please?

http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/danube-valley-civilisation-script-oldest-writing-world-001343

hrvat22
25-05-15, 07:14
Garrick (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/28714-Garrick)



He thinks in terms: nation = haplogroup (for example: I2a DYN S are Croats, E-V13 are Albanians etc.), but it is nonsense. And every reasonable discussion is not possible.

I2a DYN S is not Croatian... Croatian is I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which has earlier mutation I-Y3548 (http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3548/) that occurs and originate in White Croatia..It is the logic...Is not Chinese haplotype..



According that Aromanians have significant percentage of haplogroup I (mainly I2a)

Which specific haplotype..there are hundreds I2a..



When Slavic peoples came to the Balkans probably I2a and R1a carriers already existed.

I2a1b2a1a3 A356 comes from White Croatia and did not come before Croats, logic..

I have no data for R1a therefore is necessary to give me data for R1a Z280 CTS3402 in Balkans...



One study in Serbia conducted from American scientists tells that R1a came to the Serbia three times in different epochs, and two times much earlier than with Slavic people

There are hundreds haplotypes R1a that could reach Balkan thousand times, I ask you for R1a Z280 CTS3402 ...

noUseForAname
25-05-15, 07:52
But comprehensive research conducted by New Zealand scientists says different.

According that study Albanian has the same roots as Indo-Iranian languages, for example Baluchi (Iranian) or Singhalese (Indic), neither Greek nor Armenian.

This could mean that Albanian is not Balkan language and the ancestors of today's Albanians originating from the today's territory of Northwest Iran or the Southeast Caucasus, somewhere near the Caspian Sea.

On the other hand according these scholars Greek and Armenian have same root but they were separated more than 4000 years BC.



Can you cite the source please, i am very interested to read, from all the scientific papers and research at least 9 out of 10 argue that Albanian language is a separate branch of indo European and split from Hellenic (not modern greek) at least 3,000 ybp. You have obviously found a needle in the sea lol, however i urge you to find some more...

noUseForAname
25-05-15, 08:59
Originally Posted by Maciamo http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=449554#post449554)
Norwegians have a higher combined percentage of R1a + R1b than Belarussians and Ukrainians. Plenty of Central Asians invaded eastern Europe over the last 5000 years (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25619-5000-years-of-migrations-from-the-Eurasian-steppes-to-Europe), almost completely eliminating R1b in the region. I explained 5 years ago that this was why R1b was so low today in its original homeland.

The huge Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture didn't just vanish in thin air. They were gradually absorbed by PIE people (probably already since the Globular Amphora culture). Don't forget that Cucuteni-Trypillian towns were the largest in the world at the time. That explains the very significant percentage of both male and female Near Eastern lineages in western Ukraine and southern Belarus today.

Additionally, Ukrainians also have partial Greek ancestry in the south (lots of J2a).

It is especially northern Belarus and eastern Ukraine that are very high in R1a, and that is just a sign of higher recent Slavic ancestry, not a sign of more surviving Yamna ancestry. The Slavic branch descends from the Corded Ware and Abashevo cultures, not from Yamna.



Are you saying that most of Greeks are descends of J2a?....if so any more info related to this?....i would gladly appreciate it....




http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Alan http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=449527#post449527)
I see ~30% WHG (blue) in this chart.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg

Would this table had an explanation as the following below?

1: Most of Early Neolithic (9,000 years) - were already populated and lived (majority) at the current modern populations (and locations) such as: Sardinian, Tuscan, Greek, Albanian, Bergamo, Spanish, South French, Basque. it looks like, more south is more ancient. Doesn't that explain that all the R1b or R1a expansion came much later to Europe?..then it would look like the R lineage came from central Asia above the baltic and through steppe as Maciamo noted (and not through Asia minor). and J2 migrated even much later towards Europe?

Then would anyone argue which is the major Y Dna in these south regions already within early Neolithic?

2. There are 2 hypothesis for the roots of indoEuropean language (9,000 years): north of Black sea and south west Anatolia....recent study is pretty conclusive about the south west Anatolia. This might correlate with migrations and Cultures spreading from south west Anatolia to east forming Mesopotamia (6,000 years) and west possibly forming Vinca Culture (7,500 years).

I suppose after migration to Mesopotamia, at the same time another big migration went through Caucus above Black Sea and through the Steppe around 6,000 years ago (Maciamo noted 4,000 years ago) (probably majority of R1b and R1a)

On the other side migration from south west Anatolia through south east balkans 7,500 years ago forming Vinca culture, although there is no evidence yet that they spoke indo european. Might this group be E-V13?.... as we know so far it is 10,000 years old and its roots are the far south east balkans.


http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/ite...kaert_2012.pdf (http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/item/escidoc:1539154:7/component/escidoc:1539165/Bouckaert_2012.pdf)
https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/ (https://theoreticalecology.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/mapping-the-origins-and-expansion-of-the-indo-european-language-family/)








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noUseForAname
25-05-15, 09:04
Originally Posted by Angela http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=449749#post449749)
If you look at the chart on page 25, the division is very clear. The orange is Neolithic Farmer, although I don't know if it's exactly the same as the component in the prior Lazardis paper. Here, the standard is Starcevo and LBKT, and thus Stuttgart shows a little WHG, as does the Spanish early Neolithic. Still, it's Early Neolithic Farmer in Europe and EEF is the closest term, as Alan pointed out above. The blue is, of course, WHG, based on Loschbour. The green is Yamnaya. That component is not based on the R1b1 hunter gatherer who was so similar to the R1a1 hunter gatherer but who was, indeed, found in the Samara Valley. The green Yamnaya component is based on the later and downstream R1b samples from Yamnaya, and thus autosomally are half Eastern Hunter Gatherer and half "Near Eastern". I agree with Alan that this is the "West Asian" component that Dienekes has been chasing all these years. In my opinion, however, it should not be seen as some totally foreign component. I think they could have extracted the majority EEF like component.


(Alan is also right that ENF has no place in the discussion. That is a component found through modeling by Eurogenes. It is not, unlike these components, based on an ancient set of genomes.)

It's interesting that a little sliver of Yamnaya made it into the Gamba samples. You can also see how the blue WHG component made something of a comeback in the MN of Germany. Obviously, that didn't happen in other areas. Then there's the big explosion of it with Corded Ware, and lower levels in Bell Beaker.

There are all sorts of questions that arise as to why individual groups have their own particular set of percentages, as well. The Greeks (I believe the samples were taken in a northern part of the mainland) and the Albanians, for instance, why do they have less Yamnaya, when in addition to what might have come originally, they were invaded by Slavic speaking tribes who would have carried some with them? Also, why do they have more WHG than their immediate neighbors? The PCA is also interesting:

The PCA is also interesting:
Attachment 7074 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7074)
You can see how the later Yamnaya samples cluster right between the EHGs and the Near Easterners.
Does anyone know, by the way, where the authors talk about the percentage of population replacement in the south?


noUseForAname (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/49032-noUseForAname)

Great point Angela...
Greeks and Albanians have less later Yamna maybe cause (if we can suppose this way) as the predominant % of their dna is E-V13 (over 40%), if we add another Ie2 by 15% then we have over 65% EEF and WHG.
Yamna is only 15% (graph above) and it could be mainly through R1b and R1a, however it tops 25% (Greek and Albanian), we miss the 10%, maybe the 10% (R1b or R1a) was already at those regions before Yamna?
Then how about J2 which has 18%?...i don't have any comments here for now...

Albanians have mostly E-V13 (39%) Modern Greeks (19%), then R1b (18.6%) Modern Greeks (11.7%) migrated from steppe, then J2 (18.6%) Modern Greeks (17%) from middle east and in the end slavic tribes R1a (5%) Modern Greeks (16%)
now historically speaking modern greeks were slavinized (R1a) much more than the Albanians

noUseForAname
25-05-15, 09:08
http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sile http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=457633#post457633)
in summary , the paper states that there was one set of haplogroups in central Europe prior to 4500BC and then another different set came in....the older set comprises of I2 , G2 and T1, C and others from what I recall .............corded ware was the others .............R1 came in the younger set of migrations



Culture
Country
YBP
Hg
Simple hg
N


Mesolithic_HG
Luxembourg
8'000
I2a1b-L178
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'700
I2a-L460
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1-P37.2
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1a1a-L672
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b-M423
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b2a1-L147.2
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2c2-PF3827
I2
5


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'600
H2-L281
H2
1










Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
F*-P135
F*
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
I2a1b1-L161.1
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'200
T1a-PF5604
T
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3147
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3185
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a1-PF3170
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'100
C1a2-V20/V184
C1
2


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'100
R1b1-M415
R1b1
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'000
G2a2a1-PF3155
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
E1b1b1a1b1a-V13
E1b1b
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
G2a-P15
G2a
5


Early_Neolithic
Spain
6'900
C1a2-V20
C1
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
6'400
I2a-L460
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'300
F-M89
F*
2


Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'200
G2a2b-S126
G2a
1





So if Maciamo haplogroup timeline is correct, and according to early neolithic skeletons found:

1: Can we say that the early Neolithic people indigenous natives of Europe (at least as per ybp noted) are E-V13 (10,000 ybp) G2a2 (9,000) and I2a1 (8.000 ybp) ?
Current populations with highest I2a are:

Bosnian Croats 71%
Bosnians 56%
Sardinians 42.3%
Norwegians 40.2%
Swedes 40%
Danes 38.7%
Slovenians 38.7%
Croats 37%
Serbians 33%
Bosnians Serbs 31%
Icelanders 34%
Dutch 32.9%
Sami 31%
Peak or roots of I2a1 seems to be current Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and south west Serbia
However no ancient E-V13 is found yet at these areas except the 5 of them in Sweeden.


Current Populations with highest G2a2 are:
Osetians 60%
Georgians 32%
Although G2a2 already in Europe at the early Neolithic its roots looks like its current Georgia and Osetia (caucasus mountains)
And it has much lower numbers with that of E-V13 and !2a1


Current populations with highest E-V13 are:
Albanians in Kosovo 47.3%
Albanians in Macedonia 39%
Albanians in Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania 39%
Greeks in Greece 31%
Italians in Sicily 27.3%
Peak or roots of E-V13 seems to be current borders of Kosovo, west Macedonia, Albania, Greece (especially Peloponnese and south Greece with higher %)
However no ancient E-V13 is found yet at these areas except the one in Spain


2: Then came the migrations at early 5,000 ybp with R1 across black sea through Yamna

3: Then looks like J2 migrated the latest from middle east to Europe


for more quality info please go below..

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe/page22

Taranis
25-05-15, 13:58
Looks like obviously you dont get my point, i never said first civilizations spread from the balkans cause obviously civilization in Mesopotamia and Egypt is much different then the one say Vinca Culture. But we were arguing cause you said archeology doesnt lie about Egypt and Mesapotamia, and i replied with "you are wrong" cause Vinca Culture predates 8,000 ybp and the archeology is there it doesnt lie, not with high pyramids nor high tech buildings nor high tech cultures (lol) but it has buildings objects and scripts, and as of now its not deciphered that it is from indo european language, but surely those people had their mouth to speak, so they could write and read through those scripts.
Yet again not through some high tech archeological buildings and cultures Europe is de facto older than Egypt and Mesopotamia, and thats Vinca Culture. Do you agree or disagree please?

http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-europe/danube-valley-civilisation-script-oldest-writing-world-001343

You are missing my point entirely. Yes, I agree that the Vinca symbols are older than Egyptian hieroglyphs or the Mesopotamian cuneiform. However, I will dispute that the Vinca symbols were the ancestor of these two scripts, instead, the Vinca symbols disappeared without any descendants. Also, I find it questionable that the Vinca symbol constitute a true writing system, and I find it even more doubtful that they would represent Indo-European (they are also far too old (http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-linguist-030514-124812) for being Proto-Indo-European, in my opinion). As I said, the oldest "true" European writing system is Linear A (for writing Minoan), which is of course several millennia younger than Vinca.

noUseForAname
25-05-15, 20:04
You are missing my point entirely. Yes, I agree that the Vinca symbols are older than Egyptian hieroglyphs or the Mesopotamian cuneiform. However, I will dispute that the Vinca symbols were the ancestor of these two scripts, instead, the Vinca symbols disappeared without any descendants. Also, I find it questionable that the Vinca symbol constitute a true writing system, and I find it even more doubtful that they would represent Indo-European (they are also far too old (http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-linguist-030514-124812) for being Proto-Indo-European, in my opinion). As I said, the oldest "true" European writing system is Linear A (for writing Minoan), which is of course several millennia younger than Vinca.

Thank you for agreeing (at last), my point was not to argue about higher level Culture and higher level writing system, but call it a low level Culture or otherwise its still a culture and Vinca Culture is the oldest as of now.
And it might mean that surely they were not R* lineage nor J2, the only possibility would be I2a1 G2a2 or E-V13

Your point about true PEI (Minoan) might be rejected by the recent (major scale study) that PEI didnt came to Europe before 4,500, and it was through Yamna. And crossing through the steppe to Crete (Minoan) would probably had take much and much more time.
http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.645124

This might also correlate with already placed Archaic language (or symbols) in those areas and not PEI, Probably like Lemnos steele or other native archaic language or (symbols of meanings), some argue Pelazgians had their own archaic writings or scripts or symbols. Surely not PEI.

Herodot was Achaean himself (he was born in the Ionic city of Halicarnassus), but he wrote: "...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language...
This message belongs to Herodot, who wrote his "Historia" in the 5th century B.C. Pelasgians are so often met in different Ancient Greek manuscripts that we do not practically doubt they lived in Greece. The most widespread theory in ancient times was that Pelasgians were the Pre-Greek population of Southern Balkans and the Aegean Islands.
That means Herodot could not understand Pelasgian and considered Pelasgian to be barbarian language, together with Lydian, Phoenician or Thracian

According to Greeks, in the 5th and in the 4th century B.C. Pelasgians still lived in some regions of Greece, on several islands, and spoke a language Hellenes could not understand. Later they were assimilated completely, leaving practically no inscriptions, no books, no signs of their language in Greece, just some descriptions Greeks made themselves after them

Now let us refer to historical details. Pelasgians, having lived in Greece before Hellenes came, used to fight with newcomers, but evidently were crushed and lost their lands. In the epic poems of Homer (8th century B.C.), the Pelasgians are mentioned as the inhabitants of several locations in Greece including the ancient city of Dodona in eastern Epirus, southeastern Thrace, Argos, the Peloponnisos (Peloponnesus), and Crete.

Homer and other Greek authors give us no doubt Lemnos's signs are of Pelasgian language. But they are not Indo-European.

It could also mean that Anciant Greek (PEI) language came there at around 3,000 ybp from the steppe through Yamna

Therefore i only suppose that indigenous native inhabitants (Neolithic) of those areas were mostly E-V13 (probably small numbers and spread around Europe) untill at least 3,000 ybp period, then came the R* lineage who brought higher civilization and PEI through Yamna and were probably more in numbers. It might also be that the majority of Yamna were R1b with some R1a and J2. Therefore population grew much faster with the coming of R1b J2 and R1a.

I still argue from the starting of this thread That Pelasgians were the indigenous inhabitants before Ancient Greeks came, and now with the newest study it makes even more sense that they came through Yamna with PEI. Maciamo noted that Ancient greeks might have J2 as its major group, i argue it could be either J2 or R1b. (if we find the ancient greek skeletons we would know)
Therefore i argue (as only one possibility is arisen), that Pelazgians or whatever they were called are the descendent of E-V13 and they were Neolithic inhabitants of current locations of Albanian speaking regions and Greek speaking regions.

To put in one word and not taking into account the later names like Greeks and Albanians, before 3,000 ybp there were inhabitants called Pellazgians, then through Yamna and its population the new name ancient greeks or Mycenaean appeared (who mostly were these new inhabitants who conquered Pelazgian regions). Then we have modern Greeks or Hellenes who mostly descend from inhabitants of Yamna (who were called Ancient Greeks) and they also descend from Pelazgians in smaller numbers. And then the later name called Albanians (1,000 ybp) appeared (as of written text found) who genetically (majority) looks like have a direct descend from Pelazgians as their E-V13 is highest in the world. These also coralates with the most studies that although both PEI Albanian and Ancient greek or Mycenean language were already split 3,000 ybp.

Yetos
25-05-15, 20:12
Thank you for agreeing (at last l), my point was not to argue about higher level Culturehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#5742627) and higher level writing system, but call it a low level Culturehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#63504593) or otherwise its still a culture and Vinca Culture is the oldest as of now.
And it might mean that surely they were not R* lineage nor J2, the only possibility would be I2a1 G2a2 or E-V13

Your point about true PEI Minoanhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#36754208)) might be rejected by the recent (major scale study) that PEI didnt came to Europe before 4,500, and it was through Yamna. And crossing through the steppe to Crete Minoanhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#4339701)) would probably had take much and much more time.
http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.645124

This might also correlate with already placed Archaic language (or symbols) in those areas and not PEI, Probably like Lemnos steele or other native archaic language or (symbols of menaings), some argue Pelazgians had their own archaic writings or scripts or symbols. Surely not PEI.

Herodot was Achaean himself (he was born in the Ionic cityhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#10994180) of Halicarnassus), but he wrote: "...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language...
This message belongs to Herodot, who wrote his "Historia" in the 5th century B.C. Pelasgians are so often met in different Ancient Greek manuscripts that we do not practically doubt they livedhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#77016462) in Greece. The most widespread theory in ancient times was that Pelasgians were the Pre-Greek population of Southern Balkans and the Aegeanhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#33558936) Islands.
That means Herodot could not understand Pelasgian and consideredhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#58947077) Pelasgian to be barbarian language, together with Lydian, Phoenician or Thracian

According to Greeks, in the 5th and in the 4th century B.C. Pelasgians still livedhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#96139369) in some regions of Greece, on several islands, and spoke a language Helleneshttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#15106723) could not understand. Later they were assimilated completely, leaving practically no inscriptions, no bookshttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#43535347), no signs of their language in Greece, just some descriptions Greeks made themselves after them

Now let us refer to historical details. Pelasgians, having lived in Greece before Hellenes came, used to fight with newcomers, but evidently were crushed and lost their lands. In the epic poems of Homer (8th century B.C.), the Pelasgians are mentioned as the inhabitants of several locations in Greece including the ancient city of Dodona in eastern Epirus, southeastern Thrace, Argos, the Peloponnisos (Peloponnesus), and Crete.

Homer and other Greek authors give us no doubt Lemnos's signs are of Pelasgian language. But they are not Indo-European.


what?

how you exclude J2?
in fact J2 is the main HG that might be the Pelasgians, since is connected with all naval and historical possiblities of sea peopleshttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#43323648),

E-V13 is found in Iberia not in balkans or in minor asia,

IT IS LATER THAN HETTIT, BY THE FACTS,

ONLY BY ASSUPTION WE DARE TO SAY IT NEOLITHIC IN BALKANS,
NO EVIDENCE THAT EXISTED IN NEOLITHIC BALKANS OR MINOR ASIA

AND CAN YOU GIVE A LINK ABOUT PELASGIANS IN DODONA?
CAUSE MAINLY ARE MENTIONED AS MINOR ASIA AND AEGEAN,

cause Δωδωνη is the homeland of Greek/Hellenic language according all Linguists, and not home of Pelasgians


the thing is that Pelasgians lived in Aegean before Hellenes, but keep coming even at the times after Myceneans
by the remnants in cycladeshttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#76777724) Islands we know that start decreasing after the sea peoples era, and around 700 BC existed few towns/villages, or where Hellenized
and by the connection with others we know that were not Vinca's although they knew and trade with Varna
Vinca's might the ones called καυκωνες

the most possible if we compare Hettit with Mycenean archaiological is that Pelasgians are connected with Τελχινοι, Αριμαιοι Κρανοι and generally Hatti or Arzawa/assuwa
Κρανοι might means helmet wearers (we knew pelasgians as also thyrrenians wear extraordinary helmets)
or from Κραγος mountain Cragus,
τελχινοι were people considered as half human half snake, or half human half fish(dolphin) (compare medussa, gorgon etc)
both are also found in Thyrrenia and minor Asia palaces

considering that these areas Agean N Greece, Crete, lower Thrace, SW minor Asia lack or have low E-V13 but high J2 then is more possible Pelasgians to was J2 than E-V13
that also fits with the rest areas of the possible Sea Peoples like Phillistine Cyllikia except Sardinia,

Garrick
26-05-15, 03:39
I2a DYN S is not Croatian... Croatian is I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which has earlier mutation I-Y3548 (http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3548/) that occurs and originate in White Croatia..It is the logic...


This is pure nonsense, it can only be used for nationalist myths and nothing more.

Haplogroups and present nations are completely different things.

Did common ancestor was Serb, Croat, Pole, German, Lithuanian etc.?

Wrong.

Because nations have formed much later, they are social constructions not genetic.

And we cannot ever know about nationality of common ancestor.

Nationalists can bang their heads for years, and life passes and they have not done anything useful.

Place of origin?

It proves nothing, only for nationalistic myths.

People were moving, changing places and mixing.

In one tribe, someone could find people with different haplogroups and origin.

For example, over time, in the tribe could become dominant descendants of a stranger that has nothing to do with the original members of the tribe.

Are the carriers of I2a1b2a1a3 A356 Serbs, Croats, Bosniacs, Americans, Germans etc.

Yes, members of different nations in the world can be carriers, who cares.

Of course, Croats, Serbs, Bosniacs are close but unfortunately according the recent history far from friendly, other factors affecting, and here is the crucial religious moment.
...

Those who attempt to bind the nation with haplogroup they fall into an unsolvable problem.

What to do with carriers of different of haplogroups?

For example by false logic E-V13, J2, R1b etc. carriers, (42% males in Croatia) cannot be Croats (all the same for Serbs, Poles. etc., all nations).

But again, this is pure nonsense, wrong logic.

hrvat22
26-05-15, 06:52
What to do with carriers of different of haplogroups?

For example by false logic E-V13, J2, R1b etc. carriers, (42% males in Croatia) cannot be Croats (all the same for Serbs, Poles. etc., all nations).

But again, this is pure nonsense, wrong logic.


E1b, J2 and R1b is 24% in Croatia...E1b came with Vlach..considering that is J2 and R1b strong in Albanians it is possible that and these haplotypes have Vlach origin....normally should be determined in detail which types, but if it turns out that they come from Eastern Balkans in Croatia it is possible that 24% of Croats are Vlach origin or today Albanians...it is logic.


You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived. How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..

In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..

Yetos
26-05-15, 07:21
E1b, J2 and R1b is 24% in Croatia...E1b came with Vlach..considering that is J2 and R1b strong in Albanians it is possible that and these haplotypes have Vlach origin....normally should be determined in detail which types, but if it turns out that they come from Eastern Balkans in Croatia it is possible that 24% of Croats are Vlach origin or today Albanians...it is logic.


You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived. How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..

In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..


???
example
I am G2a3a, must I go back to Caucas?
and my neighbor is Palestinian with E-V13, should I baptise him Albanian?
and my other neighbor is I2b1, should he be Croat, Serb, Bosnian, Bulgarian? or Polish Ukrainian?

noUseForAname
26-05-15, 07:23
The french scholar (see minute 31) states Eastern Branch of PEI closely related with Armenian-Phrygian-Greek, while Albanian is of a Western branch Balkanic and unrelated to the eastern branch. If we are talking for the same period then how did it get there?..... as with the newest Yamna theory all the European languages derived from the steppe and corded ware 4,500 ybp and spread PEI into Europe. This looks like its the contrary to what i thought that PEI came to regions of Greece and Albania through Yamna and the steppe at least 3,000 ybp. Or it might have got there before Yamna, which might be possible as south east Anatolia is very close to Greece and Albania. Any other scientific source and commenting would be gladly appreciated


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1847&amp;v=vDgMTVnUnIU


http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.645124
http://www.shh.mpg.de/36925/Nature_02_2015

http://www.theleadsouthaustralia.com.au/custom/files/docs/industries_research_150303_Indo%20European%20Ancie nt%20DNA_thumbnail-2.jpg

Maleth
26-05-15, 10:25
???
example
I am G2a3a, must I go back to Caucas?
and my neighbor is Palestinian with E-V13, should I baptise him Albanian?
and my other neighbor is I2b1, should he be Croat, Serb, Bosnian, Bulgarian? or Polish Ukrainian?

With all respect Yetos, you are not making much sense. Your arguments are more reflecting some E phobia (which you need to internally deal with) rather then real history or path migrations. I am saying it with respect as your arguments are extreme to say the least. If anything E-V13 is one of your major haplogroups in your own country, much more then is found in Iberia or even Italy, so I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

Maleth
26-05-15, 11:10
http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sile http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=457633#post457633)
in summary , the paper states that there was one set of haplogroups in central Europe prior to 4500BC and then another different set came in....the older set comprises of I2 , G2 and T1, C and others from what I recall .............corded ware was the others .............R1 came in the younger set of migrations



Culture
Country
YBP
Hg
Simple hg
N


Mesolithic_HG
Luxembourg
8'000
I2a1b-L178
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'700
I2a-L460
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1-P37.2
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1a1a-L672
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b-M423
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b2a1-L147.2
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2c2-PF3827
I2
5


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'600
H2-L281
H2
1










Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
F*-P135
F*
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
I2a1b1-L161.1
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'200
T1a-PF5604
T
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3147
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3185
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a1-PF3170
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'100
C1a2-V20/V184
C1
2


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'100
R1b1-M415
R1b1
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'000
G2a2a1-PF3155
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
E1b1b1a1b1a-V13
E1b1b
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
G2a-P15
G2a
5


Early_Neolithic
Spain
6'900
C1a2-V20
C1
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
6'400
I2a-L460
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'300
F-M89
F*
2


Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'200
G2a2b-S126
G2a
1





Do not forget that all the sites that have been studied are more or less alps and above were dna was possible to be extracted. The Spanish one was lucky as it was far north bordering on France. Here you are discussing a half baked story (Just to be generous) When one considers the climate conditions of a mere few thousands years ago there is so much yet you to discover south the Alps were hardly any dna have been taken yet (and that includes Middle east and North Africa) and were it seems that life was more populous. At this stage until we have the full picture no one can come to any final conclusions. Just speculation and assumptions, although we can say we can have a part of the picture but far off from a whole one.

Ike
26-05-15, 11:55
In area of Ilirik, Dalmatia and Pannonia is maximum haplotypes which comes from White Croatia...Therefore claim of Porfirogenet that Croats inhabited Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia is correct...
That could be correct if those people came from White Croataia 50 years ago, and if Porphyrogenitus lived to write about it some 40 years ago. But, since we don't know what was the genetic background of White Croatia 1500 years ago, and since we are not even 100% sure where it was, it is only an assumption.



ahaha biggest nationalists in the history of Croatia, Croatian fascists are exactly Dalmatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina to Drina River seen as epicenter of Croatian people, what kind Zagreb hahaha...and without genetic research, it is now clear that they were right ... Genetics is relentless..

Your history spans back only 30-70 years.

If that was the "epicenter of Croatian people", why isn't it in Croatia today? Why had Croatia fought to capture territories of Krajina which were +80% Serbian in majority, and left the core of Croatian nationality (which was 95% Croatian) out of the Croatian borders? There were no Serbian or Bosniak soldiers there, Croatians had a sovereignty over there.



Do you have information that in Croatia arrived Vlachs or Albanians...hhahaha
They are Albanian origin and they did not come as Albanians but Vlachs therefore I call them Vlachs...logic

Vlach and Albanians are not the same.

Ike
26-05-15, 12:15
This might also correlate with already placed Archaic language (or symbols) in those areas and not PEI, Probably like Lemnos steele or other native archaic language or (symbols of meanings), some argue Pelazgians had their own archaic writings or scripts or symbols. Surely not PEI.

And then the later name called Albanians (1,000 ybp) appeared (as of written text found) who genetically (majority) looks like have a direct descend from Pelazgians as their E-V13 is highest in the world. These also coralates with the most studies that although both PEI Albanian and Ancient greek or Mycenean language were already split 3,000 ybp.

OK, we had Pelasgians who were surely not IE, and now we have their "direct descendants" Albanians who are PIE, but separate brunch from other bordering peoples. How did Pelasgians start to speak this new language? What people came and learned them to speak it, and gave them a new name?

Yetos
26-05-15, 21:21
With all respect Yetos, you are not making much sense. Your arguments are more reflecting some E phobia (which you need to internally deal with) rather then realhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#66520248) history or path migrations. I am saying it with respect as your arguments are extreme to say the least. If anything E-V13 is one of your major haplogroups in your own country, much more then is found in Iberia or even Italy, so I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

@ maleth,

search again, my debate with Hrvat22,
if I am wrong plz get the trouble to repeat my phobia,

what you do not see is hidden,
compare this 2 and you will realize that are the same,

I do not have phobia with E, simply I wonder why some demonising it? and push the limit, to prove that is something that is not, aren't you?
search deep, and then learn the Balkanic propaganda of all balkans,
then you will realize, what these 2 want to prove and claim

usage of parahistory, and paralinguistc was the propaganda of yesterday,
usage of genetic is the propaganda of future,

nexthttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#99294528) thing is that E spoke IE, since the mtDNA of the area is more IE,
J1 is Semitic not Caucasian origin, since some J1 are marks of arabs and jews
and I2b1 is brother of R1a, but came same time from Heaven, and split, and habitant different, but are same

and the other is showing as naval and minor Asian the E, the most indifferent hg of all, and exclude J the most possible Hg, and most naval of all in Mediterenean, and not only

combine, what you get?
my phobia?

Garrick
27-05-15, 00:10
E1b, J2 and R1b is 24% in Croatia...E1b came with Vlach..considering that is J2 and R1b strong in Albanians it is possible that and these haplotypes have Vlach origin....normally should be determined in detail which types, but if it turns out that they come from Eastern Balkans in Croatia it is possible that 24% of Croats are Vlach origin or today Albanians...it is logic.


You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived. How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..

In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..


Mutations are root of human variation. About 99.9% of human genome is exactly the same across the whole human race. Most regions of DNA are surveyed by looking at representative sections, i.e. markers. Every marker has specific variations called alleles. Looking at allele values for several markers across a stretch of DNA can be important. The set of allele values for a set of markers across a strech of DNA is haplotype. People with similar haplotypes for a certain region of DNA are more closely related than people with different haplotypes. The number of differences between someone's haplotype and that of another person tell us approximately how many generations we have to go back in order to find common ancestor.

What I wrote:


This is pure nonsense, it can only be used for nationalist myths and nothing more.
Haplogroups and present nations are completely different things.
Did common ancestor was Serb, Croat, Pole, German, Lithuanian etc.?
Wrong.
Because nations have formed much later, they are social constructions not genetic.
And we cannot ever know about nationality of common ancestor.
Nationalists can bang their heads for years, and life passes and they have not done anything useful.
Place of origin?
It proves nothing, only for nationalistic myths.
People were moving, changing places and mixing.
In one tribe, someone could find people with different haplogroups and origin.
For example, over time, in the tribe could become dominant descendants of a stranger that has nothing to do with the original members of the tribe.
Are the carriers of I2a1b2a1a3 A356 Serbs, Croats, Bosniacs, Americans, Germans etc.
Yes, members of different nations in the world can be carriers, who cares.


You can go in nationalistic sites and there you can have like-minded. But here is different situation. It is pure waste of time.

And 39% Croats (42% is random mistake) according Eupedia are not I2a or R1a. And they are not Croats?!

Perhaps this is pretentious but maybe some Croats really trying to think in terms of blood and soil.

I'm half Serb (paternal), for me it is not important if I I2a1b2a1a3 A356 , or I1, or E-V13, or etc.

Because "nations are not biological units.Human history is a constant story of migration, warfare, intermarriage, assimilation, synthesis and imitation" (Maseland).

In Belgrade there are about 10.000 people from north Africa/Middle East who are second and third generation and lot of them voluntarily declare themselves as Serbs.


among Serbs the second haplotype in population is Vlach, Albanian E1b, among Croats is third in population, etc.

Realy you think that E1b is Albanian?

It is nonsense, too (as for I2a1b2a1a3 A356).

You can read: E1b1b

Austria 8%
Belarus 4%
Belgium 5%
Bosnia and Herzegovina 12%
Bulgaria 23.5%
Czech Republic 6%
Cyprus 20%
Denmark 2.5%
...
France 7.5%
Germany 5.5%
Greece 21%
Hungary 8%
Italy 13.5%
...
Macedonia 21.5%
Malta 9%
Moldova 13%
Montenegro 27%
...
Chuvash (Russia) 13%
Mordvins (Russia) 9%
Tatars (Russia) 10%
...
Serbia 18%
Slovakia 6%
Slovenia 5%
...
Ukraine 5.5%
Etc.


And all of them are Albanians just they doesn't know that they are Albanians.

Garrick
27-05-15, 00:27
With all respect Yetos, you are not making much sense. Your arguments are more reflecting some E phobia (which you need to internally deal with) rather then real history or path migrations. I am saying it with respect as your arguments are extreme to say the least. If anything E-V13 is one of your major haplogroups in your own country, much more then is found in Iberia or even Italy, so I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

I think that there is a misunderstanding.

Yetos explained that with haplogroup G2a3a he is Greek, he only answered to the wrong logic interlocutor that E1b is Albanian i.e. haplogroup = nation.

Someone can notice that the two interlocutors try to squeeze propaganda style rather than serious discussion.

Maleth
27-05-15, 21:21
@ maleth,

search again, my debate with Hrvat22,
if I am wrong plz get the trouble to repeat my phobia,

Its not about the debate with Hrvat22 its the general subtle innuendos and connotations such as E-V13 is found only in Iberia (?), My E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian (?), Check the Religion and the birthrate (?) comments all in relation to E-V13 in this case.

Indeed agree that inter racial hatred in the Balkans defies all logic and understanding to a rational debate which can make things so boring and uninteresting for those who are interested in pure prehistory and history in connection with DNA , haplogroups and HUMAN migrations. The irony is that the Balkans are very much a mixture of the same and has nothing to do with more recent events that fuel much of the more illogical reasoning, trying to be proven in some kind of fictitious tribal war fare between imaginary homogeneous Haplogroups that carry particular marks such as languages and custom, claiming some kind of righteousness and prowess over the other.

noUseForAname
27-05-15, 22:43
Its not about the debate with Hrvat22 its the general subtle innuendos and connotations such as E-V13 is found only in Iberia (?), My E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian (?), Check the Religion and the birthrate (?) comments all in relation to E-V13 in this case.

Indeed agree that inter racial hatred in the Balkans defies all logic and understanding to a rational debate which can make things so boring and uninteresting for those who are interested in pure prehistory and history in connection with DNA , haplogroups and HUMAN migrations. The irony is that the Balkans are very much a mixture of the same and has nothing to do with more recent events that fuel much of the more illogical reasoning, trying to be proven in some kind of fictitious tribal war fare between imaginary homogeneous Haplogroups that carry particular marks such as languages and custom, claiming some kind of righteousness and prowess over the other.

True that Maleth, looks like Yetos is not transparent at all, comments likeMy E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian (?), this is unacceptable, Yetos please give and comments on the sources or you will be pushing me to report your posts. And this applies to others too, we are welcomed to give on the opinions based on sources but not giving our own ideas (sometimes ridiculous) based on nothing, give a source and then comment based on that and not like saying E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian PLEASE.

noUseForAname
27-05-15, 23:13
There's several problems with that: that Bouckaert paper was discussed quite extensively a while back in this thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27713-Anatolia-is-the-source-of-Indo-European-languages), and it was dissected badly over there because it doesn't make any sense. Especially the proposed "homelands" don't make any sense (Balto-Slavic in particular, it assumes a homeland in an area where - at large - Slavic languages weren't spoken until the Migration Period), and the paper seemed utterly ignorant of obviously attested Indo-European languages like Celtiberian in Iberia, and the Scytho-Sarmatian languages in Central Asia.


I dont see how a scientific paper can be so "badly dissected" as you mention with only couple of comments on that thread, and from them that (i think) are not scientist.

The proposed homelands by this paper is indeed south west Anatolia and not north of Black Sea, therefore i think it spread from south east Anatolia to north Mesopotamia and even further to Tocharian, on the other side it spread through Caucus and then the steppe through Yamna at around 4,500 ybp. This might also correlate with the newest research of Yamna and PEI. So this make pretty much sense about the balto slavic....

http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.645124

Ike
28-05-15, 17:34
My E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian (?), Check the Religion and the birthrate (?) comments all in relation to E-V13 in this case.

He never said that. That, what you're saying, has no meaning.

Maleth
28-05-15, 18:14
He never said that. That, what you're saying, has no meaning.

How about checking post 170 on page 7 on this same thread, I will guide you to all the other innuendos and connotations as I come across them. And Yetos is not only one using this tactic by the way. It does not really boder me per se. The intent just gets so obsessively repetitive and boring to a subject I enjoy following closely.

Yetos
28-05-15, 20:48
@ Maleth

read this



You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived. How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..

In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..


there was a strong minority of Jews in Makedonia, at 1860 moved to 5th Avenue NY most, some still live here,
and I ask you could a Jew Diaspora in Greece to be E?

after 70's many Palestinians devastate at Thessalonikihttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#69624329) and around towns,
some are living 'nexthttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#46907579) door' they might be E, should I baptise them Albanians cause they have E?

and to go more deep.

Greek language, Serb/Croat, Albanian languages are IE, meaning they are after Bronze era comers, why we connect E with IE?
were E Hg carriers IE speakers?

so search better who is the racist,


now to be honest,
I do not know what you believe about E in Balkans,
But I do not share the idea that E entered Balkans at Neolithic era, and has nothing to do with Iberian E
and I have the right, since the difference among Iberian and Balkan/minor Asia existance of E is 4000 (E of Konya), as much as from late bronze era to modern times,
besides the existance of Bottle neck, with the connection of M-78 M-81 and E-v13 and the one mutation given in Balkans (bosnia) how much possible is with an existance of 8000 years and with an existance of 4000 years with such numbers and density?????? I am not a calcutator neither a genetist, but I believe someone can help, or you understand
I believe is 4000 years old in Balkans, and create core and densities with Roman Legions, and Arab expand, (sources give christians to leave south East mediterenean due to Islam expansion)
if you knew the story of mt Athos, Christian monks until 6-7th century livedhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#61003493) in Sina and Egyptian Arabian Syrrian deserts) after 700 BC they devastate to Cappadokia and mt Athos and with them villages and followers,
as also the density of E in Balkans is strange and pecculiar, cause if I follow the road of E Hg carriers devastation, surely I expect different results, and not such densities and peaks, which might be due to rate of reproduction, what I mean? search Deutshland, which might have not for example X hg, suddenly X enters antd reproduce with 2 woman (that is allowed and legal, if you make 2 marriages and a divorce) having 4-6 children with each and 50% of boys gives an average of 4-6 sons X carriers,
and the Z Hg due to religion makes one or none marriage with average of 2-3 children means reproduce with 1,5 factor per generation,
result????

and to finalize,
even if E is neolithic, why an E carrier in Bulgaria for example should be Albanian as Hrvat 22 say, and not a neolithic person who habbit there from neolithic times, and assimilated by Bulgarians?

if you do not understand the major propaganda of Albanians who run great nationalistic era, is that all E in Balkans are Albanians, so they are autochthonus pre IE, and all E in Balkans are Albanians, and they their Language is not a language of IE (R1xyz) but the mother of IE language,
awayhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#13323996) from E is not IE so is not Albanian Greek or Serbian, but a previous substractum, or a later migration, (both possible) who got assimilated by IE,
so I ask you, a Palestinian who came at 70's or earlier in Greece, and bear a son, is his son Albanian, cause he is E-V13 carrier, and lives in Balkans?
your problem is what? the word Palestinian? ok if I used word Cypriot or Maltese, would make any difference?

plz feel freehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#41678022) to tell whatever you want, but plz read the above and bellow first,


and post again?
"if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors livedhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#2865962)."
I ask,
could that man in Croatia to be son of a Sicilian or a Cillician that followed a Roman legion? or a Roman master? or a Roman officer at his villa? or a Christian priest? even a forgoten hunted Jew? why we baptise him Albanian or Serb or Greek?

Maleth
28-05-15, 22:23
@ Maleth

read this

there was a strong minority of Jews in Makedonia, some still live here,
and I ask you could a Jew Diaspora in Greece to be E?after 70's many Palestinians devastate at Thessaloniki and around towns,
some are living 'next door' they might be E, should I baptise them Albanians cause they have E?

1) There are E's and E's and other E's. If one is not specific the one is creating a confused and unspecific picture that will help no argument or debate

2) minority of Jews in Makedonia would come in J1's J2's and mostly E-34 and probably never be part of any study on Greek population as when studies are conducted the people are chosen for authenticity and not everyone can participate, so the argument of Jews in Makedonia visa vi the high amount of E-V13 in Greece as a whole holds no water and defiantly not related to Palestians or Jews. Lets be reasonable. Not difficult.

3) The same with Palestinians. They come in G2a, E (but minimal E-V13 definatly not majority in the E group) J's. The other haplogroups seem non existant to you and never seem to comment on them. So 2) is very relevant in this case too. I am E-V13 and been baptized a Christian but Im not an Albanian and Albanians are not just E-V13 but a considerable percentage like all the countries in the region.


and to go more deep.

Greek language, Serb/Croat, Albanian languages are IE, meaning they are after Bronze era comers, why we connect E with IE?
were E Hg carriers IE speakers?

so search better who is the racist,

Its possible the main driving force for IE was R1a but the region is made up of much more then just R1a so how come you feel E should be excluded from the assimilation of so many Haplotypes that characterise the region, then console yourself that E foreigners have intruded and had lots of babies? But the rest seems to fit in well. Im just trying to understand your logic. What about the J's that make a big chunk of your population? My Goodness, what a crisis!

The rise of archaeogenetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeogenetic) evidence which uses genetic analysis to trace migration patterns also added new elements to the origins puzzle. In terms of genetics, the subclade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subclade)R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M420#R-M17.2FM198_.28R1a1a.29) is the most commonly associated with Indo-European speakers. The subclade's parent Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup)R1a1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a1_(Y-DNA)) is thought to have originated in either theEurasian Steppe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Steppe)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans



now to be honest,

I do not know what you believe about E in Balkans,
But I do not share the idea that E entered Balkans at Neolithic era, and has nothing to do with Iberian E
and I have the right, since the difference among Iberian and Balkan/minor Asia existance of E is 4000 (E of Konya), as much as from late bronze era to modern times,
besides the existance of Bottle neck, with the connection of M-78 M-81 and E-v13 and the one mutation given in Balkans (bosnia) how much possible is with an existance of 8000 years and with an existance of 4000 years with such numbers and density??????
I believe is 4000 years old in Balkans, and create core and densities with Roman Legions, and Arab expand, (sources give christians to leave south East mediterenean due to Islam expansion)
if you knew the story of mt Athos, Christian monks until 6-7th century lived in Sina and Egyptian Arabian Syrrian deserts) after 700 BC they devastate to Cappadokia and mt Athos and with them villages and followers,
as also the density of E in Balkans is strange and pecculiar, cause if I follow the road of E Hg carriers devastation, surely I expect different results, and not such densities and peaks, which might be due to rate of reproduction,

and to finalize,
even if E is neolithic, why an E carrier in Bulgaria should be Albanian as Hrvat 22 say, and not a neolithic person who habbit there from neolithic times?

Of course I do not agree with you and I have made my opinion known backed by studies around. Its no secret
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30814-Where-did-E-V13-originate

I am open to new theories as long as they are scientifically based and not just some theory to fit an agenda or an illusion to kind of justify a phobia.

E-V13 has nothing to do with Jews or Palestinians but I prefer to rely on professionals with serious studies when I am searching for knowledge and understanding. I have no problem if E-V13 (which is only found in the Balkans in any significant numbers) originate with Australian Aborigines or with the Sami's. But correct information is what matters most and not what feeds a fantasy.

We found that the Y-chromosome gene pool in modern Bulgarians is primarily represented by Western Eurasian haplogroups with ~ 40% belonging to haplogroups E-V13 and I-M423, and 20% to R-M17. Haplogroups common in the Middle East (J and G) and in South Western Asia (R-L23*) occur at frequencies of 19% and 5%, respectively. Haplogroups C, N and Q, distinctive for Altaic and Central Asian Turkic-speaking populations, occur at the negligible frequency of only 1.5%...........

Eastern Bulgaria indicating that the Balkan Mountains have been permeable to human movements. The lineage analysis provided the following interesting results: (i) R-L23* is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13 has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the arrival of farming; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779




if you do not understand
the major propaganda of Albanians who run great nationalistic era, is that all E in Balkans are Albanians,
awayhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#13323996) from E is not IE so is not Albanian Greek or Serbian, but a previous substractum, who got assimilated by IE,
so I ask you, a Palestinian who came at 70's or earlier in Greece, and bear a son, is his son Albanian, cause he is E-V13 carrier, and lives in Balkans?

plz feel free to tell whatever you want, but plz read the above first,

I dont agree that Albanians have some kind of patent on E-V13 if they think that, they are ridiculous but its not even possible to think that because the regions is very similar in its percentages mix of haplogroup. E-V13 is not the only haplogroup found in modern Albanians. What happened 10,000 years ago and all the events that followed are not the same. However as an outsider I feel that I also know that Albanians are unjustly being told about their genealogy often nastily as if they have dropped in the Balkans from outer space with a malicious agenda in mind. The fact is they have a right like everybody else to defend their position like everybody else does. Dna results do show that Albanian People did not fall from space and are very much part and parcel of the Balkans no matter the petty arguments that are brought without any serious scientific backing.

Yetos
28-05-15, 23:41
@ Maleth,


your problem is that you say nothing more than the things I also say,
your last paragraph is showing that in deep you agree with me,
but your problem is that I disaggree that E-V13 is a Balkanic mark as I can see,

again you tell me nothing more, and clearly since you did not deny that E-v13 is not a mark of a ceratin population,
BUT HOW COME YOU CALL ME A RACIST, WHEN I ANSWER TO AN EXTRA NATIONALIST
"my neighbor is a Palestinian E, should I baptise him Albanian?"s
since you also admit that E-V13 exists in Palestine?
as about Jews of Thessaloniki, no they count on modern population searches and results cause they existed before 1860 (search line date) while Pontic Greeks are not in any results cause came after 1860,
and there is some E-81 and E-V13 by what I discussed with some, (no need to give known family names)

Now about the epipaleolithic balkans and the possibility of E to existed or to mutate in Epipalaiolithic Bulgaria?
Balkans do not have mesolithic era except some areas in Dinaric alps and North of Danube

perhaps you are refering to this
<<Haplogroup E-V13 displays a star-like network radiating from a central haplotype mainly found in the Balkan populations. This pattern, together with coalescence estimates, points to a recent and rapid expansion of this lineage in the Balkans. Not considering Bosnian Croats and Macedonian Greeks, for which standard errors are too large, the highest age in the Balkans, dating back to Mesolithic times, is found in Western Bulgaria (9.3±3 kya). This value, which overlaps that registered in Turkey (10.6±3 kya), indicates that haplogroup E-V13 was already present (if not originated) in Mesolithic times in Western Bulgaria from where it underwent expansion with the transition to farming.>>

and this?
<<In the plot of Figure 3C (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779#pone-0056779-g003), the populations are distributed in a longitudinal pattern generated essentially by the PC1. This separation is determined by the prevalence of the East Asian Hg O-M175 and the Central Asian Hg C-RPS4Y in the east and the increasing frequencies of Hgs J-M172 and R-M173 in the west. The PC2, which is mainly due to Hgs I-M170 and E-SRY4064, clearly separates Bulgarians from the compared populations. On the whole, Bulgarians are distant from Altaic populations and populations residing in the north of the Pamir region and they are also distant from Kazan Tatars and Iranians, although to a lesser extent.>>
PC1 and PC2 marks are connected with some certain Hg there, while few km away can be connected with other Hg, or the oposite, nothing
possibilities

noUseForAname
29-05-15, 01:21
Originally Posted by LeBrok http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=433489#post433489)
In order to make such maps we need a lot of data from all over the Europe. By the nature of this data collection it will be a self reporting project. It is not the best way, but it might be the only way to gather data for these maps. Please post your EEF, WHG, EEF numbers with place of birth, or place of birth of your parents if they came from different region than you were born in.

Little explanation of these admixtures:

These admixtures can roughly tell you about your origin.
WHG - West Hunter Gatherers, were the Mesolithic Europeans spread pretty much all over the Europe around 10 to 5 thousand BCE.
EEF - Early European Farmers, were the Neolithic inhabitants of Europe, the first farmers who came 10 thousand years ago from Near East and first settled in Balkans and the rest of South Europe. In next 5 thousand years they've spread to every corner of Europe.
ANE - Ancient North Eurasians, the hunter-gatherers and nomads from far East Europe and Central Asia. Latest research papers point to Indo-Europeans bringing ANE to every place in Europe.

Example:
Poland, Siedlce (country, city or region)
EEF - 45
WHG - 39
ANE - 16

One can say that I'm 39% very ancient European, 45% farmer from Near East, and 16% Indo-European. Or that I'm 55% Hunter-Gatherer and 45% Farmer.

More information:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/201...est-three.html (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/ancient-human-genomes-suggest-three.html)

Some data from the paper by Lazaridis:
EEF WHG ANE
0.781 0.092 0.127 -- Albanian
0.931 0 0.069 -- Ashkenazi_Jew
0.593 0.293 0.114 -- Basque
0.418 0.431 0.151 -- Belorussian
0.715 0.177 0.108 -- Bergamo
0.712 0.147 0.141 -- Bulgarian
0.561 0.293 0.145 -- Croatian
0.495 0.338 0.167 -- Czech
0.495 0.364 0.141 -- English
0.322 0.495 0.183 -- Estonian
0.554 0.311 0.135 -- French
0.675 0.195 0.13 -- French_South
0.792 0.058 0.151 -- Greek
0.558 0.264 0.179 -- Hungarian
0.394 0.456 0.15 -- Icelandic
0.364 0.464 0.172 -- Lithuanian
0.932 0 0.068 -- Maltese
0.411 0.428 0.161 -- Norwegian
0.457 0.385 0.158 -- Orcadian
0.713 0.125 0.163 -- Pais_Vasco
0.817 0.175 0.008 -- Sardinian
0.39 0.428 0.182 -- Scottish
0.903 0 0.097 -- Sicilian
0.809 0.068 0.123 -- Spanish
0.746 0.136 0.118 -- Tuscan
0.462 0.387 0.151 -- Ukrainian
Here is the explanation how you can calculate your admixtures:
http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2013/1...europeans.html (http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/eef-whg-ane-test-for-europeans.html)



noUseForAname
On EEF the paper states: Early European Farmer (EEF): apparently this is a hybrid component, the result of mixture between "Basal Eurasians" and a WHG-like population possibly from the Balkans. (possibly from Balkans) how do you know it came from near east (does it say on a paper?).

This might correlates with Maciamo arguing about E-V13 (10,000 ybp), as its peak or roots is south east balkans. And before that its a subclade of M-78 (south east Africa). And M-78 might have crossed (before 10,000 ybp) straight to south east balkans (or even Iberia) and not through Levant and Anatolia.
It also correlates with I2a1...So only possible early Neolithic in Europe I2a1 and E-V13?....Then I2a1 and E-V13 has nothing to do with near east farmers nor even migrating from the near east

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

On the other side looks like its pretty complicated, if we can say the more Yanmaya R* (4,500) from the graph the less Mesolithic or Neolthic, and more the WHG and EEF then more Mesolithic and early Neolithic. Credit goes to Sardinains and Bulgarians with pretty high I2a1 and Albanians and Greeks with E-V13
How come then Spain, tuscany, basques, Bergamo has one of the highest EEF and its very very high in R1b?....

noUseForAname
29-05-15, 01:26
Originally Posted by noUseForAname http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=457971#post457971)
On EEF the paper states: Early European Farmer (EEF): apparently this is a hybrid component, the result of mixture between "Basal Eurasians" and a WHG-like population possibly from the Balkans. (possibly from Balkans) how do you know it came from near east (does it say on a paper?).

LeBrok
To be exact EEF is European hybrid, and it was found in Stuttgart. However it has over 80% component which came with first farmers. It is called Early Neolithic Farmer admixture. From archaeology we know that first farmers happened in Near East, and then farming spread to Europe through Balkans. We are yet to physically find and sequence this supposed ENF genome. Though it is pretty sure thing that we will find it there.

noUseForAname
This correlates with Maciamo arguing about E-V13 (10,000 ybp), as its peak or roots is south east balkans. And before that its a subclade of M-78 (south east Africa). And M-78 might have crossed (before 10,000 ybp) straight to south east balkans (or even Iberia) and not through Levant and Anatolia.

LeBrok
If E-V13 came with farmers to Balkans, it most likely started in Near East and walked from there to Europe with other farmers of G2a type, as minority clade. If it came to Europe in Mesolithic, then it came as hunter-gatherer. It could have originated in Saharan Africa, then came to Iberia, bringing North African admixture, which was found in some WHGs. When farmers came and acquired V13 from hunter gatherers it could spread around in bigger numbers throughout Europe with farmers.

Looking at E-V13 map, it looks wide spread in every part of Europe, therefore very ancient. It started expansion in Mid Neolithic to my guess, and in direction from South to North.
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

noUseForAname
29-05-15, 01:30
Originally Posted by LeBrok http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=457978#post457978)
To be exact EEF is European hybrid, and it was found in Stuttgart. However it has over 80% component which came with first farmers. It is called Early Neolithic Farmer admixture. From archaeology we know that first farmers happened in Near East, and then farming spread to Europe through Balkans. We are yet to physically find and sequence this supposed ENF genome. Though it is pretty sure thing that we will find it there.

If E-V13 came with farmers to Balkans, it most likely started in Near East and walked from there to Europe with other farmers of G2a type, as minority clade. If it came to Europe in Mesolithic, then it came as hunter-gatherer. It could have originated in Saharan Africa, then came to Iberia, bringing North African admixture, which was found in some WHGs. When farmers came and acquired V13 from hunter gatherers it could spread around in bigger numbers throughout Europe with farmers.

Looking at E-V13 map, it looks wide spread in every part of Europe, therefore very ancient. It started expansion in Mid Neolithic to my guess, and in direction from South to North.


noUseForAname
Recent discoveries in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe), such as Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus) and mainland Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) has shown that farming started early in south east Europe. In Franchthi Cave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchthi_Cave)in Greece there are no certain gathering of plant foods attested before c. 11,000 bc, although large numbers of seeds of the Boraginaceae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boraginaceae) family may come from plants gathered to furnish soft bedding or for the dye which their roots may have supplied. First appearing at c. 11,000bc are lentils, vetch, pistachios, and almonds. Then c. 10,500bc appear a few very rare seeds of wild oats and wild barley. Neither wild oats nor wild barley become at all common until c. 7000bc[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture#cite_note-19)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture#cite_note-20) in Cyprus. The oldest agricultural settlement ever found on a Mediterranean island has been discovered in Klimonas. between 9100 and 8600 bc

Anthropological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology) and archaeological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology) evidence from sites across Southwest Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Asia) and North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa)indicate use of wild grain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cereal) (e.g., from the c. 20,000bc site of Ohalo II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohalo_II) in Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel), many Natufian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian) sites in theLevant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant) and from sites along the Nile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile) in the 10th millennium bc).
It was not until after 9500 bc that the eight so-called founder crops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_founder_crops) of agriculture appear: first emmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmer_wheat) andeinkorn wheat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einkorn_wheat), then hulled barley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barley), peas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pea),lentils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lentil), bitter vetch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicia_ervilia), chick peas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_pea) and flax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flax). These eight crops occur more or less simultaneously on Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_B)) sites in the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant)
By 7000 bc, sowing and harvesting reached Mesopotamia.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture

What i understand is not the near East (considering Syria, Anatolia, Mesopotamia) but the far north east Africa (M-78 peak) and the very south west Levant like Ohalo.
So that might mean that by 10,000 BC there was already farming in the far south east Balkans that came from north east Africa and the far south west Levant.
It looks like the peak was south east Africa which at the same time spread in one direction at Crete and then Peloponnese and the other spread through Levant Syria and reached Mesopotamia by 7,000 BC.

It also correlates with M-78 and E-V13 link through north east Africa and not the other way around through north Levant and Anatolia.

Maybe not as a minority as you mention because who else was there before G2a I2a1 and E-V13 and with higher numbers?, i Would suppose (at early Neolithic through mid Neolithic) the Majority in Europe was:

1: I2a1 & I1
2: E-V13
3: G2a1 (dont know why or how by today is still low)
4: R1b (became a majority after 4,000 ybp)
5: R1a (pushed more south to current Europe from Today Russia after around 4,500 ybp)
J2 not much info, (probably came in more numbers after the bronze age

Maleth
29-05-15, 12:24
@ Maleth,


your problem is that you say nothing more than the things I also say,
your last paragraph is showing that in deep you agree with me,

Jolly good


but your problem is that I disaggree that E-V13 is a Balkanic mark as I can see,

Its not a problem for me, it is kind of obvious that E-V13 is a Balkanic marker which did not happen with the arrival of Turks or whatever causes so much hate in your region, but obvious it has been there for thousands of years and VERY MUCH INCLINED to believe that it has been born there too (Bulgaria maybe?!). But I would not be too presumptions to say that is a fact because its not yet. The indications neither lay to Palestinians neither with slaves and neither with Gypsies, or North Africans for that matter (all absurd comments presented on this forum with a particular agenda of course). E-V13 has a different route, its not the same as E-M81 and neither as E-M34. What baffles me is your lack of pride in your own people since E-V13 is also often called a Greek Marker (which like all others it is not as its shared by a group of countries anyway) Now If I had to reason that with my own people I would consider myself to have a problem espesially in an autosmal contest when most haplogroups have become intertwined one way or another.




BUT HOW COME YOU CALL ME A RACIST, WHEN I ANSWER TO AN EXTRA NATIONALIST I symatitically mentioned you have a phobia never said you were racist. Phobia and racism are two different things. I believe nationalism is a huge thing in the balkans not only with Albanians but that is a result of more recent event and maybe terrible memories and nothing to do with DNA. DNA shows you are brothers and sisters but decided on different carriers so you all hate each other for it.


"my neighbor is a Palestinian E, should I baptise him Albanian?

fine you mentioned this the forth time. You are telling me to understand it. Maybe you can use more appropriate words?

*)Palestinians are people who live in the Middle east and passed their amount of tromas with deplacments and so on.
*) Baptism is a religious term not sure what your connotation is in regards to Albanians


since you also admit that E-V13 exists in Palestine?

You are making big efforts to find some kind of justification for your E-V13 in the Balkans. What I told you is E-V13 is only 1 to 3 % in Palestine. There are much more E-V34 and E-M124, but why you need to single out E-V13 is beyond me - seriously. E-V13 comes in 45% in the Peloponnese (are they your enemies?) for example so how can you compare? E-V13 is not E-M81 and neither E-M124 also not E-V34. We are talking about splits here that happened far much earlier the Ottoman occupation in the Balkans.


as about Jews of Thessaloniki, no they count on modern population searches and results cause they existed before 1860 (search line date) while Pontic Greeks are not in any results cause came after 1860,
and there is some E-81 and E-V13 by what I discussed with some, (no need to give known family names)

Again you are using same tactic to single out E-V13 as some kind of foreign additions to a homogeneous ancient group. Even on today genetic studies E-V13 in Jewish groups is minmal. The strongest is E-M34 and lots of J1's and J'2s. So you chose for whatever reason to single out E-V13 amoungst a Jewish group. So according to your logic the Jews gave the balkans their E-V13 marker. If so there should be MUCH more J1's and we know there are much J2 (which incorrectly used to be called the Phoenician marker). Lets add this theory with that of Slaves, gypsies, and north Africans to keep the debate lively and well.


Now about the epipaleolithic balkans and the possibility of E to existed or to mutate in Epipalaiolithic Bulgaria?
Balkans do not have mesolithic era except some areas in Dinaric alps and North of Danube

perhaps you are refering to this
<<Haplogroup E-V13 displays a star-like network radiating from a central haplotype mainly found in the Balkan populations. This pattern, together with coalescence estimates, points to a recent and rapid expansion of this lineage in the Balkans. Not considering Bosnian Croats and Macedonian Greeks, for which standard errors are too large, the highest age in the Balkans, dating back to Mesolithic times, is found in Western Bulgaria (9.3±3 kya). This value, which overlaps that registered in Turkey (10.6±3 kya), indicates that haplogroup E-V13 was already present (if not originated) in Mesolithic times in Western Bulgaria from where it underwent expansion with the transition to farming.>>

and this?
<<In the plot of Figure 3C (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779#pone-0056779-g003), the populations are distributed in a longitudinal pattern generated essentially by the PC1. This separation is determined by the prevalence of the East Asian Hg O-M175 and the Central Asian Hg C-RPS4Y in the east and the increasing frequencies of Hgs J-M172 and R-M173 in the west. The PC2, which is mainly due to Hgs I-M170 and E-SRY4064, clearly separates Bulgarians from the compared populations. On the whole, Bulgarians are distant from Altaic populations and populations residing in the north of the Pamir region and they are also distant from Kazan Tatars and Iranians, although to a lesser extent.>>
PC1 and PC2 marks are connected with some certain Hg there, while few km away can be connected with other Hg, or the opposite, nothing
possibilities

I did not say it, the paper does and it does not look amateurish to me either. Do you think all these papers have a nationalistic agenda?

Ed. and to be more complete and hope I do not add to your horrors (sorry if it upsets you) that all the minimal E-V13 admixtures in Jewish Arab and North Africa societies can well be a result of Greek expansion in Greek classical times as Greek migrations to these lands is VERY WELL documented and defiantly not the other way round.

Ike
29-05-15, 15:12
How about checking post 170 on page 7 on this same thread, I will guide you to all the other innuendos and connotations as I come across them. And Yetos is not only one using this tactic by the way. It does not really boder me per se. The intent just gets so obsessively repetitive and boring to a subject I enjoy following closely.

Nope, he really didn't say that. You've taken it the wrong way.

Maleth
29-05-15, 17:37
Nope, he really didn't say that. You've taken it the wrong way.

ok I will ask an English Literature teacher to decipher it for me as it needs some serious work on it. :rolleyes2: :grin:

Yetos
29-05-15, 20:49
ok I will ask an English Literature teacher to decipher it for me as it needs some serious work on it. :rolleyes2: :grin:

baptise and βαφω βαφη baphe βαπτιζω,

word in Koine and modern Greek wich means I GIVE NEW STATUS/PAINT/NAME,

Βαπτω = Ι paint
Baptise = I input in liguid paint or chemicals something to become clean,

it originally had the meaning in mettalurgy, in works like plating

in Christianity Christians confess
'Eν βαπτισμα εις αφεσιν αμαρτιων'

one baptism in oρder of sin absolution

means the old man enters the dye/water cleans and transform and GETS A NEW NAME AND A NEW ID,

so the word Baptise means to give a new ID to someone

so by the phrase
My Palestinian neighor , should I baptise him Albanian?

means that with



You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors livedhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#84052504). How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..

In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..


we baptise peoplehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#29576312) to something, WHICH IS WRONG

and is not my phobia ΦΟΒEΙΑ (Φοβος the dog of Ares/March)


besides about the Link you gave I read it,
it combines PC123 with Y-Dna to get the age,
but little bit southern
only I1 is PC1http://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#46237720) and E is PC4 much later than PC2
how you combine that? what you get from that combination?

Garrick
29-05-15, 21:50
Yes Yetos, reputation.

People make fudge "to prove" what can not be proved.

Some wrong need to fabricate a "national superiority".

Garrick
29-05-15, 22:08
Can you cite the source please, i am very interested to read, from all the scientific papers and research at least 9 out of 10 argue that Albanian language is a separate branch of indo European and split from Hellenic (not modern greek) at least 3,000 ybp. You have obviously found a needle in the sea lol, however i urge you to find some more...

Needle in the sea?! It looks like: I do not believe in China because I did not see China.

The scientists used new computation-modeling method, their primary result was that Indo-European language appeared in Anatholia about 7,800 9,800 years ago, groups as (Greek - Armenian) or (Indic Iranic - Albanian) etc. are product of research.

But I will open new thread.

...
My personal opinion is that J2 has played a much larger role in the creation of the Indo European language, not only R1b or R1a. I do not why is undervalued role of J2 carriers in the creation of IE languages.

Maleth
29-05-15, 22:31
besides about the Link you gave I read it,
it combines PC123 with Y-Dna to get the age,
but little bit southern
only I1 is PC1http://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#46237720) and E is PC4 much later than PC2
how you combine that? what you get from that combination?

It means:-

Conclusion,

Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

Meaning E-V13 has been around in the Balkans much longer then what you believe, even before any of todays known religions. That would also mean that E-V13 arrived before Gypsies or Jews and Palestinians, Slaves or North Africans, and no Baptism was needed to obtain any new identity. Passports and borders did not exist in those times ;)

Garrick
30-05-15, 00:57
It means:-

Conclusion,

Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

Meaning E-V13 has been around in the Balkans much longer then what you believe, even before any of todays known religions. That would also mean that E-V13 arrived before Gypsies or Jews and Palestinians, Slaves or North Africans, and no Baptism was needed to obtain any new identity. Passports and borders did not exist in those times ;)

Maleth
Yetos spoke about different things, that someone cannot identify haplogroup with nation, these are two completely different things.

For example:


among Serbs the second haplotype in population is Vlach, Albanian E1b, among Croats is third in population, etc.

And I reacted:





Really you think that E1b is Albanian?

It is nonsense, too (as for I2a1b2a1a3 A356).

You can read: E1b1b

Austria 8%
Belarus 4%
Belgium 5%
Bosnia and Herzegovina 12%
Bulgaria 23.5%
Czech Republic 6%
Cyprus 20%
Denmark 2.5%
...
France 7.5%
Germany 5.5%
Greece 21%
Hungary 8%
Italy 13.5%
...
Macedonia 21.5%
Malta 9%
Moldova 13%
Montenegro 27%
...
Chuvash (Russia) 13%
Mordvins (Russia) 9%
Tatars (Russia) 10%
...
Serbia 18%
Slovakia 6%
Slovenia 5%
...
Ukraine 5.5%
Etc.


And all of them are Albanians just they doesn't know that they are Albanians.

...
I think to understand what confuse you.

In the Balkans when we say baptised (it doesn't matter which language) it has more meanings, not only administering baptism (in the church).

Meanings: to mark, to designate, to name, to address etc.

He said in the following meaning to hrvat22:

"my neighbor is Palestinian with E-V13, should I (because he is carrier of haplogroup E-V13) consider him as Albanian?"

In another words, he said that haplogroup is completely different than nation, that members of different nations can be E-V13 carriers; for that he can only be right.

noUseForAname
30-05-15, 01:33
Needle in the sea?! It looks like: I do not believe in China because I did not see China.

The scientists used new computation-modeling method, their primary result was that Indo-European language appeared in Anatholia about 7,800 9,800 years ago, groups as (Greek - Armenian) or (Indic Iranic - Albanian) etc. are product of research.

But I will open new thread.
...
My personal opinion is that J2 has played a much larger role in the creation of the Indo European language, not only R1b or R1a. I do not why is undervalued role of J2 carriers in the creation of IE languages.

Can you send me the source please?

Once again if you have gone through the threads (and if your interested to read more) and online there is a majority that claim that Ancient Greek and Albanian language is already split at around 3,000 ybp, i don't want to reiterate thing over and over again....

The french scholar (see minute 31) states Eastern Branch of PEI closely related with Armenian-Phrygian-Greek, while Albanian is of a Western branch Balkanic and unrelated to the eastern branch, therefore it is not a brach of an Indic/Iranian language.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDgMTVnUnIU
http://news.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/sn-languages672H.jpghttp://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6970&d=1419366716
http://www.mpi.nl/news/TreeoflanguagefamiliesMichaelDunnScience.jpg
http://www.theleadsouthaustralia.com.au/custom/files/docs/industries_research_150303_Indo%20European%20Ancie nt%20DNA_thumbnail-2.jpg

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...=fb-share&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0)
http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htmhttp:/
pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/ite...kaert_2012.pdf (http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/item/escidoc:1539154:7/component/escidoc:1539165/Bouckaert_2012.pdf)
https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/ (https://theoreticalecology.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/mapping-the-origins-and-expansion-of-the-indo-european-language-family/)

noUseForAname
30-05-15, 05:20
This is why i meant that more south is more ancient in current Europe, as far as we are talking about early Neolithic, and if we are talking about indigenous natives of European DNA (at least for Early Neolithic period), not taking into account current Russia




Haplogroup
Possible time of origin
Possible place of origin








I2
17,000 years ago
Balkans









I2b
13,000 years ago
Central Europe









I2a
11,000 years ago
Balkans















E1b1b-V13
8,500 years ago
Balkans



I2b1
9,000 years ago
Germany



I2a1
8,000 years ago
Sardinia



I2a2
2,500 years ago
Poland, Central Europe



E1b1b-M81
5,500 years ago
Maghreb



I1
5,000 years ago
Scandinavia



R1b-L21
4,000 years ago
Central or Eastern Europe



R1b-S28
3,500 years ago
around the Alps



R1b-S21
3,000 years ago
Frisia or Central Europe



I2b1a
< 3,000 years ago
Britain








this is the thread...http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe/page22


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations)

Sile
30-05-15, 05:32
http://www.theleadsouthaustralia.com.au/custom/files/docs/industries_research_150303_Indo%20European%20Ancie nt%20DNA_thumbnail-2.jpg

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...=fb-share&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0)
http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htmhttp:/
pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/ite...kaert_2012.pdf (http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/item/escidoc:1539154:7/component/escidoc:1539165/Bouckaert_2012.pdf)
https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/ (https://theoreticalecology.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/mapping-the-origins-and-expansion-of-the-indo-european-language-family/)

It is AMAZING that albanian is such an old language that Greek and Roman historians have never mention or recorded it , they mention and recorded all the Anatolian branch as per above the Albanian group and they mention and recorded what is below the Albanian branch.................it seems very very strange that Albanian which sits in the middle is completely missing.

noUseForAname
30-05-15, 06:07
Here is the E-V13 percentage for specific populations and specific locations.

Very interesting percentage by a specific location




Population
--------------------------


Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians)(Kosovar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovar_Albanian))
Language
------------

IE (Albanian)
N
------


114
R1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA))
-------


21.10
R1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA))
-------


4.42
I
-----------

I1=5.31
I2a2=2.65
E-V13
---------


47.37
J
---------


J2=16.7
G
-----


0
N
---


0
T
---


0
Others
----------------


P[xQ,R1]=1.77
Reference
----------------------


Pericic2005[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Pericic2005-3)


Greeks (Peloponnese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnese))
IE (Greek)
36



47





Semino2004[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)


Greeks (South)
IE (Greek)
46
19.6
2.2
23.9
43.5

6.5

2.2

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Cantabrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria)(Pasiegos)
IE (Italic)
56



42.9





Cruciani2004[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Cruciani2004-20)


Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians)(Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia))
IE (Albanian)
64
18.8
1.6
I1=4.5
I2a=12.5
39.1
J1=6.3
J2=15.6
1.6
0.0
0.0

Battaglia2008[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Battaglia2008-5)


Greeks (North)
IE (Greek)
96
14.6
18.8
12.5
35.4

5.2

2.1
L=1
Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Italians (East Sicily)
IE (Italic)
87
20.0
2.3
5.0
29.0

5.0

5.0

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Italians (Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily))
IE (Italic)



8.8
27.3
23.8




Semino2004[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)


Cypriots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus)
IE (Greek)
45
9.0
2.0

27.0





Rosser2000[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Rosser2000-13)


Italians (South)
IE (Italic)
68
25.0
3.0
6.0
26.0

15.0

3.0

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians)
IE (Albanian)
55
18.2
9.1
I1=3.6
I2a=14.5
I2b=3.6
27.5
J1=3.6
J2=20.0
1.8
0.0
0.0

Battaglia2008[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Battaglia2008-5)


Greeks
IE (Greek)
84/92



21.0
6.5




Semino2004[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)


Greeks (Macedonia)
IE (Greek)
57
14.0
12.3
I1=8.8
I2a=21.0
22.9
J1=1.8
J2=14.1
1.8

1.8

Battaglia 2008[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Battaglia2008-5)


Ashkenazi Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews)
IE (Germanic, West)
79

12.7

22.8
43.0




Nebel2001[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Nebel2001-9)


Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs) (Bosnia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina))
IE (Slavic, South)
81
6.2
13.6
40.7
22.2
9.9
1.2
6.2
0.0

Battaglia2008[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Battaglia2008-5)


Aromuns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians)(Kruševo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo), Macedonia)
IE (Italic)
43
27.9
11.6
20.9
20.9
11.6
7.0
0.0
0.0

Bosch2006[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Bosch2006-4)


Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians)
IE (Slavic, South)
127
11.0
17.3
27.5
19.7
18.1
1.6

0.8

Karachanak2009[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Karachanak2009-17)


Greeks (Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace))
IE (Greek)
41
12.2
22.0
19.5
19.5
19.5
4.9



Bosch2006[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Bosch2006-4)


Sephardic Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardic_Jews)
Afro-Asiatic (Semitic)
78
29.5
3.9
11.5
19.2
28.2




Nebel2001[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Nebel2001-9)


Italians (West Sicily)
IE (Italic)
125
27.0
2.4
11.0
19.0

13.0

3.0

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Minorca islanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minorca)
IE (Italic)
37
73.0
2.7
2.7
18.9

0.0

0.0

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Aromuns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians) (Štip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0tip_Municipality), Macedonia)
IE (Italic)
65
23.1
21.5
16.9
18.5
20.0
0.0
0.0
0.0

Bosch2006[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Bosch2006-4)


ethnic Macedonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group))
IE (Slavic, South)
211
11.4
14.2
31.3
18.0
16.0
3.8
0.5
1.9
L=0.5
Noveski2010[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Noveski2010-34)


Aromuns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians)(Dukasi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fier_County), Albania)
IE (Italic)
39
2.6
2.6
17.9
17.9
48.7
10.3
0.0
0.0

Bosch2006[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Bosch2006-4)


Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs)
IE (Slavic, South)
179
4.5
14.5
48
17.3
5.6
2.2
3.3

L=0.6
Mirabal,V.2010[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Mirabal2010-39)


Portuguese (South)
IE (Italic)
57
56.0
2.0

17.0





Rosser2000[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Rosser2000-13)


Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians)(Ploieşti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ploie%C5%9Fti))
IE (Italic)
36
8.3
5.6
38.9
16.7
19.4
8.3
0.0
0.0

Bosch2006[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Bosch2006-4)


Gagauz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagauz_people)(Kongaz)
Altaic (Turkic)
48
10.4
12.5
31.3
16.7
8.3
10.4
4.2
6.3

Varzari2006[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Varzari2006-27)


Italians (Calabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria))
IE (Italic)

32.4[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2000-2)

5.4[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Rootsi2004-6)
16.3[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Pericic2005-3)
24.6[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)







Aromuns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians)(Andon Poci (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokast%C3%ABr_District), Albania)
IE (Italic)
19
36.8
0.0
42.1
15.8
5.3
0.0
0.0
0.0

Bosch2006[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Bosch2006-4)


Italians (Apulia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apulia))
IE (Italic)



2.6[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Rootsi2004-6)
13.9[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)
31.4[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)







Italians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians)
IE (Italic)


2.7[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Helgason2000-16)

13.0[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Rosser2000-13)









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations

Garrick
30-05-15, 13:51
It is AMAZING that albanian is such an old language that Greek and Roman historians have never mention or recorded it , they mention and recorded all the Anatolian branch as per above the Albanian group and they mention and recorded what is below the Albanian branch.................it seems very very strange that Albanian which sits in the middle is completely missing.

The first document in the Albanian language (as spoken in the region around Mat) was recorded in 1462 by Paulus Angelius (whose name was later Albanized to Pal Engjëll), the archbishop of the Catholic Archdiocese of Durazzo (modern Durres).

...
New Zealand scientists used new computational-modeling method. Their result is that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranic language.

http://news.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/thumb_article_l/public/article_images/2003112611.jpg?itok=Uw7Mi954

...
My assumption is that Albanian originated somewhere in between (today's) Caucasus, northern Iran and eastern Turkey. I suppose that carriers of R1b ht35 (Armenian haplotype), J2 and probably R1a created this language. Albanian is Indo-European, Satem.

One of possible route moving carriers of mentoined haplogroups is Caucasus, areas around in front of Black Sea region, today's areas of Southern Ukraine/Moldavia/Romania. Somewhere in Moldavia (or Southern Ukraine, or Romania) E-V13 carriers mixed with R1b ht35, J2 and R1a carriers, and they received their language. As this is the area Romania, Moldavia, Southern Ukraine, a lot of Latin Romanian and Slavic words entered in that precursor of modern Albanian language.

...
It is interesting, we have no original language of E-V13 carriers. Nowhere in the world. My assumption is that original language of E-V13 carriers was Afro-Asiatic. In today's Albanian there are words that could be Afro-Asiatic but it is very hard to say if they originate from E-V13 carriers or these are later impacts.

Maleth
30-05-15, 15:12
It is interesting, we have no original language of E-V13 carriers. Nowhere in the world. My assumption is that original language of E-V13 carriers was Afro-Asiatic. In today's Albanian there are words that could be Afro-Asiatic but it is very hard to say if they originate from E-V13 carriers or these are later impacts.

It would be interesting to know, however I doubt if any haplogroup (except for the R group which probably always carried and indo European language) carried a particular language. Do we know what the first J1 and J2 carried or even the G's or T's soon after they mutated?....even the I's? The I's split from the J's. (what language did they speak?) or is it a matter that groups split and assimilated into other larger groups and adopted to whatever was the most important language in the region. I think there were some issues in Babel although they could have been mostly a mixture of Afroasiatic dialects rather then total different language trees. Not an easy thing to know. If not mistaken there are some minor common roots between indo European and Afroasiatic, so Albanian will not be the only one, unless you are refering to semetic words which could have entered more recently. Spanish still has a few semetic words in its language and also Sicilian dialect. Maltese is Semetic with a high percentage of loan words from Latin, but its a result of history and not DNA I believe linguists believe that both indo european and afroasiatic languages had a common ancestor some 25,000 years ago.

Yetos
30-05-15, 16:22
It means:-

Conclusion,

Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

Meaning E-V13 has been around in the Balkans much longer then what you believe, even before any of todays known religions. That would also mean that E-V13 arrived before Gypsies or Jews and Palestinians, Slaves or North Africans, and no Baptism was needed to obtain any new identity. Passports and borders did not exist in those times ;)

again



<<Haplogroup E-V13 displays a star-like network radiating from a central haplotype mainly found in the Balkan populations. This pattern, together with coalescence estimates, points to a recent and rapid expansion of this lineage in the Balkans. Not considering Bosnian Croats and Macedonian Greeks, for which standard errors are too large, the highest age in the Balkans, dating back to Mesolithic times, is found in Western Bulgaria (9.3±3 kya). This value, which overlaps that registered in Turkey (10.6±3 kya), indicates that haplogroup E-V13 was already present (if not originated) in Mesolithic times in Western Bulgaria from where it underwent expansion with the transition to farming.>>

cause

<<In the plot of Figure 3C (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779#pone-0056779-g003), the populations are distributed in a longitudinal pattern generated essentially by the PC1. This separation is determined by the prevalence of the East Asian Hg O-M175 and the Central Asian Hg C-RPS4Y in the east and the increasing frequencies of Hgs J-M172 and R-M173 in the west. The PC2, which is mainly due to Hgs I-M170 and E-SRY4064, clearly separates Bulgarians from the compared populations. On the whole, Bulgarians are distant from Altaic populations and populations residing in the north of the Pamir region and they are also distant from Kazan Tatars and Iranians, although to a lesser extent.>>

PC1 and PC2 marks are connected with some certain Hg there, while few km away can be connected with other Hg, or the oposite, nothing
possibilities

do you understand the combo logic?
it is a possibility by crossing 2 variants,
NOT a DETERMING METHOD

Angela
30-05-15, 17:04
Gentlemen, if you are using older papers which depended on the "evolutionary" mutation rate, the interpretations aren't necessarily reliable.

We know a form of E-V13 was present in a Cardial culture site in the western Mediterranean. We know that the current hot spot is in southeastern Europe. It seems pretty clear that there was a Bronze Age/Iron Age spread from that area.

Until we get more ancient samples of E-V13, better resolution of clades, and better dating of those clades, I personally am not very sure when it arrived or with whom. I feel more confident in saying that it expanded in the Bronze Age from somewhere in the Balkans, and into Italy, in particular, in the Bronze Age, and later with Greek colonization in the first millennium BC.

noUseForAname
30-05-15, 20:49
New Zealand scientists used new computational-modeling method. Their result is that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranic language.


I have found your source (although i asked 3 times to send the source and not just the picture)
You have misrepresented this source (see below) from (Russell D. Gray 2003 year) for the following reasons. I will interpret this study (although more recent studies of 2012 and 2015 show more details)

1: Albanian language is not a subgroup of indic/Iranian (see table below). If it would have been a subgroup then it would fall inside Indic/Iranic
2: Indic/Iranic split 4,600 years ago (own separate branch), Albanian split 6,000 years ago (own separate branch). Colours show separate branches (read the whole source in details please)
3: On the other side Greek and Armenian split 6,800 years ago (therefore own Branch), although it mentions Greek only 800 years old (probably this is only for the modern Greek and not ancient Greek). And Albanian 600 years old (probably this is only for a modern Albanian)
4: The main language groupings are colourcoded. Branch lengths are proportional to the inferred maximum-likelihood estimates ofevolutionary change per cognate....
5: For example *Italic also includes the French/Iberian subgroup, So Italic main branch and subgroups are French/Iberian.
6: So the main groups branches (from older to recent) are: Anatolian, Tocharian, Armenian, Greek, Albanian, Iranian (Indo-Iranian), Indic (indo-Iranian), Slavic, Baltic, Germanic, Italic.....

Now my question to you is: Why the study then shows Albanian as its own Main branch?
Did you even read the source or you just found that pic and wanted to be one sided no matter what?


http://d1vn86fw4xmcz1.cloudfront.net/content/royptb/366/1567/1090/F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1





My assumption is that Albanian originated somewhere in between (today's) Caucasus, northern Iran and eastern Turkey. I suppose that carriers of R1b ht35 (Armenian haplotype), J2 and probably R1a created this language. Albanian is Indo-European, Satem.


1:Majority of current Albanians descend from E-V13 (over 40%) how can they originate from Caucus area? (we are not talking about the language here)
2:It is a possibility that Yamna R1b majority 4,000 years ago spread PEI to those regions, as Albanians currently have 18.6% R1b and R1a only 5%
3:It is also a possibility that J2 through Yamna 4,000 ago spread PEI, however this is not supported with the recent (major scale dna study) because Yamna were mostly R1b.
4: Maciamo notes that current Ukrainians have J2a from Greek ancestry, therefore it came to Greek regions much later then E-V13 and R1b because J2a never moved across Yamna (only Yamns brought PEI). J2a must have crossed through current Turkey but definitely didnt brought PEI with them. If J2 moved there at earlier say around 3,000 years ago it should have already found E-V113 and R1b, that is why E-V13 and R1b at Albanians have over 60% together. Currently J2 is 18%.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe/page22

So once again how can Albanians Originate from Caucus when altogether E-V13 R1b and I2 = 77.5%



It is interesting, we have no original language of E-V13 carriers. Nowhere in the world. My assumption is that original language of E-V13 carriers was Afro-Asiatic. In today's Albanian there are words that could be Afro-Asiatic but it is very hard to say if they originate from E-V13 carriers or these are later impacts.


Yet again, are you reading my post at all?....it could be Pelazgian...read my post and sources please i dont want to reiterate over and over again..


https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Usagers/tuitekj/MonDepotPublic/cours/IE/GrayAtkinson.pdf

Fluffy
30-05-15, 21:11
How many times will I have to say it? Haplogroup G is not Semitic.

Maleth
30-05-15, 22:59
How many times will I have to say it? Haplogroup G is not Semitic.


National Geographic places G origins in the Middle east some 30,000 year ago, Cinnioglu et al and Semino et al also suggest a middle eastern origin but do not agree on dates of mutations from Haplogroup F. They suggest a more recent date.

The word Semetic is a more recent term to describe a family of languages derived from the Afroasiatic ones. Other G subclades like others would have mutated in different regions. G2a is found freaquently in neolotical sites in Europe where dna extraction is possible in cooler climates. G2a is found in low freaquencies in current populations in many parts of Europe, Western Asia, Middle east and North Africa, however G1 is rarely found in Europe, highest found is in Iran.

Garrick
31-05-15, 01:27
Albanian language is not a subgroup of indic/Iranian (see table below). If it would have been a subgroup then it would fall inside Indic/Iranic.


What I wrote:

Their result is that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranic language.
According New Zealand scientists:
Greek and Armenian have same root.
Albanian and Indic & Iranian language have same root.
Baltic and Slavic languages have same root.
Romance, Germanic and Celtic languages have same root.

Albanian and Indic & Iranic languages split 6000 years ago, according them. But it split from Indic & Iranic languages, not from Armenian, or Slavic, or Celtic.

What I wrote more times, it is possible that R1b ht35 (Armenian haplotype) had most impact in creating proto Albanian. Maybe J2 and R1a carriers participated too.

It is possible that proto Albanian originated from area Caucasus, today’s eastern Turkey and northern Iran. And it is possible that population who spoke proto Albanian moved over land in the region around Black sea to the Moldavia (Southern Ukraine/Romania). And this population mixed in with E-V13 carriers who were numerous in the area where these two populations merged (maybe in this area E-V13 is numerous and today).

For J2 there are two assumptions:


J2 carriers participated in creating proto Albanian and in the movement from Caucasus, area around Black sea to Moldavia (Southern Ukraine, Romania) or
J2 carriers entered in Albanian substratum late, in area of today’s Romania, Bulgaria or later, in area of today’s Albania.


Dienekes once wrote that J2 carriers entered very late in Albanian substratum in area present-day Albania.

Moldavia/Romania is key area for creating modern Albanian which probably created between 4 and 6 century in this area. Latin loanwords in Albanian show East Balkan Latin phonetics (Romanian), but no West Balkan Latin phonetics (Dalmatian). Also in the area Albanian came in contact with Balto Slavic languages. And Dacian before Romanization probably was Balto Slavic. And Thracian was probably Balto Slavic. Albanian is Satem, as Balto Slavic, Dacian and Thracian languages.

Albanian has strong links with Romanian and Balto Slavic.

But Albanian has relative absence of Greek influence. Influence of Greek came much later, in area present day Albania. Greek loanwords in Albanian should be much higher if Albanians lived with Greeks a much longer time.
...

Pelasgian probably was not IE language.
Illyirian was IE language, but Satem.
Someone can ask, why Albanian linguists try to reduce links Albanian with Romanian and Balto Slavic, and search non-existent links Albanian with Pelasgian and Illyrian.
And, what is interesting, some Albanian linguists say Albanian is close to Illyirian, Albanian is close to Pelasgian, what is nonsense because Illyiran and Pelasgian have no connection.

...
What Albanian can have with Pelasgian if it has no link, linguistic, geographic, by age.

Albanian has no connection with Pelasgian. No.
And Albanian as Satem language has no connection with Illyrian.

We here just wasting time searching the links that don’t exist.
...

Linguists using traditional methods had problem to classify Albanian and they wandered to find appropriate solution. Maybe Armenian was the closest about whom they thought. However New Zealand scientists went innovative way, they using computational method determined that Albanian has same root as Indic languages (for example Kashmiri) and Iranian languages (for example Baluchi), which can means, if they’re right, that proto Albanian was more to the east far from the Armenian.

noUseForAname
01-06-15, 02:40
What I wrote:

[QUOTE]Albanian and Indic & Iranic languages split 6000 years ago, according them. But it split from Indic & Iranic languages, not from Armenian, or Slavic, or Celtic.

Incorrect, According to the source Albanian is before Indic/Iranic, 6: So the main groups branches (from older to recent) are: Anatolian, Tocharian, Armenian, Greek, Albanian, Iranian (Indo-Iranian), Indic (indo-Iranian), Slavic, Baltic, Germanic, Italic.....
Therefore Albanian is split 6,200 years, on the other side Indic/Iranic 4,600 years ago (Check the source below with years noted)
All those main Languages (colorized) are split as a main separate branches from indo-European.
https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Usagers/tuitekj/MonDepotPublic/cours/IE/GrayAtkinson.pdf



It is possible that proto Albanian originated from area Caucasus, today’s eastern Turkey and northern Iran. And it is possible that population who spoke proto Albanian moved over land in the region around Black sea to the Moldavia (Southern Ukraine/Romania). And this population mixed in with E-V13 carriers who were numerous in the area where these two populations merged (maybe in this area E-V13 is numerous and today).

If language came from somewhere that doesn't mean all the people too (it might be by smaller numbers), in this case we have E-V13 over 40% + !2 and !1 to 57.5%, lets say most R1b (with 20%) brought PEI, and it cannot be before 6,000 years ago cause thats when they migrated through Yamna. So population might grew for another 20% to 77.5%. And then J2 came later with 18%. Those are current dna numbers at it makes pretty much sense this way.

Therefore arguing that Albanian originated from Caucus is wrong, because its language could have originated from there (like all the other PEI languages), and if we are supposing that R1b brought PEI from around today Caucus north Mesopotamia and north east Anatolia.

Thats why i asked you and am asking you again how can current Albanians originated (not language) from Caucus when altogether E-V13 R1b and I2 = 77.5%



Dienekes once wrote that J2 carriers entered very late in Albanian substratum in area present-day Albania.

Yes i think too J2 entered much later and in small numbers, thats why its 18%



Albanian has same root as Indic languages (for example Kashmiri) and Iranian languages (for example Baluchi), which can means, if they’re right, that proto Albanian was more to the east far from the Armenian.

Baluchi?....you seem not to understand the basics (although i explained everything above)

Albanian is split 6,200 years as a separate and own branch from PEI, on the other side Indic/Iranic 4,600 years ago (according to study)...just read above my explanation and check the study and years.....hope you understand by now.

https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Usagers/tuitekj/MonDepotPublic/cours/IE/GrayAtkinson.pdf

Fluffy
01-06-15, 04:30
National Geographic places G origins in the Middle east some 30,000 year ago, Cinnioglu et al and Semino et al also suggest a middle eastern origin but do not agree on dates of mutations from Haplogroup F. They suggest a more recent date.

The word Semetic is a more recent term to describe a family of languages derived from the Afroasiatic ones. Other G subclades like others would have mutated in different regions. G2a is found freaquently in neolotical sites in Europe where dna extraction is possible in cooler climates. G2a is found in low freaquencies in current populations in many parts of Europe, Western Asia, Middle east and North Africa, however G1 is rarely found in Europe, highest found is in Iran.



I was simply implying that Semitic haplogroups are E and J1.

Ike
02-06-15, 15:54
baptise and βαφω βαφη baphe βαπτιζω,

word in Koine and modern Greek wich means I GIVE NEW STATUS/PAINT/NAME, ...


It was all clear from day one, I don't see why would anyone interpret it different than that.

Maleth
02-06-15, 16:37
I was simply implying that Semitic haplogroups are E and J1.

Semitic means a sub language from the Afro Asiatic group normally including Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, Phonetician and so on not a haplogroup description. For example we can say that G haplogroup was mutated in an area were a Semitic language was spoken. (which can never be the case as there is no language that is termed Semetic from the time that haplogroups were mutated and haplogroups mutations and their subclades have mutated in regions were the languages were not known as they were never written down. In the event of hisotry (where we have written documents) haplogroups have been mixing around for thousands of years.

Angela
02-06-15, 16:38
With all due respect, gentlemen, while kudos are to be given to many of our members for posting in English when they are not native speakers or don't have long years of practice communicating in it, it is still a fact that it is difficult to grasp the logic of some posts, never mind the subtleties. Then there is the fact that certain "attitudes", shall we say, seem to "color" a lot of these posts and so it is natural to interpret such posts in light of those "attitudes".

So, enough, yes?

Maleth
02-06-15, 16:39
It was all clear from day one, I don't see why would anyone interpret it different than that.

Indeed as clear as a foggy day :good_job:

Ike
02-06-15, 19:52
Indeed as clear as a foggy day :good_job:

So, you decide to choose your version of the story, and stick to it even though I pointed out to you that it is wrong. Damn good logic.

Piro Ilir
02-06-15, 20:07
Probably E- V 13 is somehow related with pelasgians, illyrians, hellenes, etc. Unfortunately this looks to be true.

Maleth
02-06-15, 20:19
Probably E- V 13 is somehow related with pelasgians, illyrians, hellenes, etc. Unfortunately this looks to be true.

:angry: What a disaster :grin:

hrvat22
03-06-15, 14:55
Its not about the debate with Hrvat22 its the general subtle innuendos and connotations such as E-V13 is found only in Iberia (?), My E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian (?), Check the Religion and the birthrate (?) comments all in relation to E-V13 in this case.

Indeed agree that inter racial hatred in the Balkans defies all logic and understanding to a rational debate which can make things so boring and uninteresting for those who are interested in pure prehistory and history in connection with DNA , haplogroups and HUMAN migrations. The irony is that the Balkans are very much a mixture of the same and has nothing to do with more recent events that fuel much of the more illogical reasoning, trying to be proven in some kind of fictitious tribal war fare between imaginary homogeneous Haplogroups that carry particular marks such as languages and custom, claiming some kind of righteousness and prowess over the other.

I have not studied the Albanian type E1b V13...

If Albanian in today Albania has E1b 1200 and Croat in Croatia E1b 1201, this means that Croat came from Albania or his ancestor is Albanian. if someone in Algeria has E1b 500172 what does he have with Albania ...

I do not know Albanian types E1b so I speak in general ...

If you have data for Albanian and Croatian E1b haplotypes I would be grateful ...

noUseForAname
03-06-15, 17:03
I have not studied the Albanian type E1b V13...

If Albanian in today Albania has E1b 1200 and Croat in Croatia E1b 1201, this means that Croat came from Albania or his ancestor is Albanian. if someone in Algeria has E1b 500172 what does he have with Albania ...

I do not know Albanian types E1b so I speak in general ...

If you have data for Albanian and Croatian E1b haplotypes I would be grateful ...

I think you have plenty of information regarding E-V13 in this Thread if you read from the start to the end.

I wouldn't say there is "Albanian types E1b" nor for any other populations (as dna are pretty mixed to all populations).
E-V13 is 10,000 ybp and its a subcalde of M -78. Therefore there is non European E1b because E1b is very old 40,000 ybp. (everyone is descend from Africa if we go way back)

Also, we couldn't say (if we look at wording) if Croatians have E-V13 their ancestor is Albanian cause at those times of course there was no Albanians nor Greek. However, we can say that current populations of so called Albanians have highest E-V13 in the world (if we are talking about population or ethnicity) and are descent from E-V13.


Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011)) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were inhaplogroup G2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_G2a_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&redlink=1), which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as beingsimilar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, E-V13.[68] The area in and around Albanian speaking regions has the highest known percentages E-V13 in the world, and it is thought that the majority of E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the Balkans in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, and that men of this lineage began to spread outside the Balkans as early as the Neolithic, or even as recently as the Roman era.[68][69][70][71][72][73]

Maleth
03-06-15, 17:43
I have not studied the Albanian type E1b V13...

If Albanian in today Albania has E1b 1200 and Croat in Croatia E1b 1201, this means that Croat came from Albania or his ancestor is Albanian. if someone in Algeria has E1b 500172 what does he have with Albania ...

I do not know Albanian types E1b so I speak in general ...

If you have data for Albanian and Croatian E1b haplotypes I would be grateful ...


I think NUFA has explained quite in depth. In other words there is no Albanian E_V13 but all E-V13 found in Europe are pretty much similar. The only further downstream reading we have is E-V13 (E-L542) (E-143 and 142) (E-L117) E-L241). See links below for better understanding

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E-V13?iframe=yresults

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E-V13/default.aspx?section=yresults

These are more or less evenly distributed around Europe so none of them represent with an certainty a particular region even within the balkans themselves which is the only hotspot for E-V13 in the world. Even the 7000 E-V13 found in a neolithical site in norther Spain is similar to the balkan type.

hrvat22
03-06-15, 17:54
I think you have plenty of information regarding E-V13 in this Thread if you read from the start to the end.

I wouldn't say there is "Albanian types E1b" nor for any other populations (as dna are pretty mixed to all populations).
E-V13 is 10,000 ybp and its a subcalde of M -78. Therefore there is non European E1b because E1b is very old 40,000 ybp. (everyone is descend from Africa if we go way back)

Also, we couldn't say (if we look at wording) if Croatians have E-V13 their ancestor is Albanian cause at those times of course there was no Albanians nor Greek. However, we can say that current populations of so called Albanians have highest E-V13 in the world (if we are talking about population or ethnicity) and are descent from E-V13.


Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011)) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were inhaplogroup G2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_G2a_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&redlink=1), which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as beingsimilar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, E-V13.[68] The area in and around Albanian speaking regions has the highest known percentages E-V13 in the world, and it is thought that the majority of E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the Balkans in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, and that men of this lineage began to spread outside the Balkans as early as the Neolithic, or even as recently as the Roman era.[68][69][70][71][72][73]

I ask for specific Albanian E1b....Croatian is I2a1b2a1a3 A356 not I2a..

Croatian I2a is 15,000 years old .. what does I2a has with Croats as a nation...

Today Croats are mix R1a Z280 type and I2a1b2a1a3 A356 type...who was I2a not even god knows...

Distant ancestor of I2a1b2a1a3 A356 is I2a1b2a1 CTS5966 that has nothing to do with the Croats as nation or people in Croatia, southern Poland or Germani....maybe these people with I2a1b2a1 called themselves Chinese..

But direct ancestor Croatian I2a1b2a1a3 A356 is I2a1b2a1a S17250 or by experimental genealogy tree mutation I-Y354 (http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3548/) which has its source in the place and time of existence White Croatia in southern Poland. Only for those people, with this mutation I can say that they Croatian origin and previously they could be called Arabs or Mongols..

hrvat22
03-06-15, 18:09
I think NUFA has explained quite in depth. In other words there is no Albanian E_V13 but all E-V13 found in Europe are pretty much similar. The only further downstream reading we have is E-V13 (E-L542) (E-143 and 142) (E-L117) E-L241). See links below for better understanding

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E-V13?iframe=yresults

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E-V13/default.aspx?section=yresults

These are more or less evenly distributed around Europe so none of them represent with an certainty a particular region even within the balkans themselves which is the only hotspot for E-V13 in the world. Even the 7000 E-V13 found in a neolithical site in norther Spain is similar to the balkan type.

All haplotypes have mutated and become new and new haplotypes only E1b V13 stayed unchanged...

Croats are before ten years ago had only I2a and they were brothers with half of Europe, today we have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356... Do you notice a difference..


You have on Eupedija a lot mutations behind E1b V13..

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Maleth
03-06-15, 18:33
All haplotypes have mutated and become new and new haplotypes only E1b V13 stayed unchanged...

Croats are before ten years ago had only I2a and they were brothers with half of Europe, today we have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356... Do you notice a difference..


You have on Eupedija a lot mutations behind E1b V13..

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

I think you are not understanding or I am no understanding you. The general term haplogroup E is split in some 40 subclades. E-V13 is one of them and the only one that is only found in Europe (in the Balkans with any high percentages. It is found in very low frequencies outside of Europe (1,2,3%) and much of that can be easily attributed to the Greek expansion in its height. (They are documented and not just presumed as we are talking history here when writing was invented and used) That E-V13 is split further in some 6 subclades but they do not specify any particular region as you can have example my L-542 is in Spain, Sweden, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria and Belarus. More or less same with others.

hrvat22
03-06-15, 19:20
I think you are not understanding or I am no understanding you. The general term haplogroup E is split in some 40 subclades. E-V13 is one of them and the only one that is only found in Europe (in the Balkans with any high percentages. It is found in very low frequencies outside of Europe (1,2,3%) and much of that can be easily attributed to the Greek expansion in its height. (They are documented and not just presumed as we are talking history here when writing was invented and used) That E-V13 is split further in some 6 subclades but they do not specify any particular region as you can have example my L-542 is in Spain, Sweden, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria and Belarus. More or less same with others.

Far as I know E1b V13 exist about 4,000 years in the Balkans...what does 4000 years BC has do with the Greek, perhaps even I2a was in Greek and that would mean that Croat are descendants of some Greeks because our old ancestors were there before 8000 years..

Where is the source of V13 in the Balkans, which is specifically Albanian and Greek V13..?

It is not quantum physics... if source of V13 is in Greece at the time of Greeks and if Albanians have that tipe V13 then Albanians are Greek origin, they came from Greek.. logic..

V13 comes into Croatia through Vlach who are Albanian origin ... maybe are Greek origin...you prove that there Greeks and that we will respect..

Maleth
03-06-15, 19:47
Where is the source of V13 in the Balkans, which is specifically Albanian and Greek V13..?



You got a non quantum physics answer, and for the third time you ask the same questions. So no offence but I give up, I have better things to do. Enjoy your debate

Angela
03-06-15, 19:49
All haplotypes have mutated and become new and new haplotypes only E1b V13 stayed unchanged...

Croats are before ten years ago had only I2a and they were brothers with half of Europe, today we have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356... Do you notice a difference..


You have on Eupedija a lot mutations behind E1b V13..

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Croats before ten years ago had only I2a yDNA? Are you serious?

I hate to break this news to you, but Croatian y DNA has been studied for a while, and all the other haplogroups didn't suddenly appear in the last ten years for goodness sakes...click on the numbers and it will give you a link to the study and its date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

Maybe our Balkan members also need to acquaint or re-acquaint themselves with this authoritative paper on Balkan autosomal dna, which is much more informative as to real genetic relatedness:

Standing at the Gateway to Europe...L. Kovacevik et al:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25148043

I find it astounding that there is this degree of animosity among the various Balkan groups when you're all so similar to one another.

7271

hrvat22
03-06-15, 20:13
Croats before ten years ago had only I2a yDNA? Are you serious?

I hate to break this news to you, but Croatian y DNA has been studied for a while, and all the other haplogroups didn't suddenly appear in the last ten years for goodness sakes...click on the numbers and it will give you a link to the study and its date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

Maybe our Balkan members also need to acquaint or re-acquaint themselves with this authoritative paper on Balkan autosomal dna, which is much more informative as to real genetic relatedness:

Standing at the Gateway to Europe...L. Kovacevik et al:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25148043

I find it astounding that there is this degree of animosity among the various Balkan groups when you're all so similar to one another.

7271


I2a which Croats had before 10 years ago is now I2a1b2a1a3 A356...or 45% male population of Croats...



Standing at the Gateway to Europe...L. Kovacevik et al:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25148043


When you see that it says Croatian mainland instantly you know that it cites research for Croats from year 2003 which is outdated..


*Croatian mainland from Barac´ et al. (2003)

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf

Angela
03-06-15, 20:57
I2a which Croats had before 10 years ago is now I2a1b2a1a3 A356...or 45% male population of Croats...





When you see that it says Croatian mainland instantly you know that it cites research for Croats from year 2003 which is outdated..


*Croatian mainland from Barac´ et al. (2003)

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf

Maybe we have a language issue here, and I misunderstood you. Yes, we now have more resolution of the yDna lineages than we had ten years ago. However, Croats are not just yDna I2a, however resolved or unresolved. They carry other ydna lineages as well, which is clearly outlined in the article to which I linked.

In addition, a man's yDna accounts for about 2% of total genomic make-up. The rest is autosomal dna. Autosomally, there is very little difference between any people in the Balkans, and almost none between the various groups in the western Balkans. The evidence is there, and it's very recent.

hrvat22
03-06-15, 22:34
. Autosomally, there is very little difference between any people in the Balkans, and almost none between the various groups in the western Balkans. The evidence is there, and it's very recent.


I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which have Croats comes from White Croatia, the same have Bosniaks, Montenegrins and Serbs in almost half of population.

R1a Z280 type which have Croats have also Serbs, Bosnians, etc.

R1a type Z280 has the same epicenter in White Croatia..

About 65 percent of the male population in Croatia came from White Croatia...

Similar percentage is in Bosnians, Montenegrins etc .. it is logical that we are same people becouse we came as White Croats on Balkans..Genetically it is undeniable..

Yetos
03-06-15, 23:19
I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which have Croats comes from White Croatia, the same have Bosniaks, Montenegrins and Serbs in almost half of population.

R1a Z280 type which have Croats have also Serbs, Bosnians, etc.

R1a type Z280 has the same epicenter in White Croatia..

About 65 percent of the male population in Croatia came from White Croatia...

Similar percentage is in Bosnians, Montenegrins etc .. it is logical that we are same peoplehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#86191784) becouse we came as White Croats on Balkans..Genetically it is undeniable..


I see you continue playhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#10793842) your musichttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#44825003), in a solo violin,

Well NOOOOOOOOO
R1a in Balkans has nothing to do with ex-I2a2 Din,

Reason
Were R1a exists in High, I2a1b is Low,
were I2ab1 is high R1a is low,
So stop bullshit,
go little south, R1a in N Greece, were R1a exists are areas Full of Greek Speakers and Gaulish/Aromanian, in the heart of Dorian homeland, areas awayhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#54065302) from even what Skopje claim as Slav existance
and I2a1b is almost upsent,
Take a look at nearby Bulgaria? where is R1a and where is I2a1b? are they same spot? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
take a look at you country, Croatia,
DO DALMATIAN AND ZAGREB HAVE SAME ANALOGIES OF R1a AND I2a1b? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

why?
cause R1a existed in Balkans before the entrance of Croats or Serbs or Bulgarians

so by observing better the spots better, you make wiser conclusions

except if you want to tell me that almighty Slavs who cross all the way from Poland or Ukraine and conguer Balkans, siege Con/polis, defeated Romans, Byzantines Turks Avars etc etc
Had the great ones, Dusan and Cymeon
ended to become Greeks without a fight, :useless:

even in the chronicles of st Dimitrios, were all slavic tribes who entered Greece are mentioned, with the areas that dwell, we do not have R1a,

maybe something is wrong,
either my observation,
either your conclusion!!!!!!

thank you
I love you too

Garrick
03-06-15, 23:25
Maybe we have a language issue here, and I misunderstood you. Yes, we now have more resolution of the yDna lineages than we had ten years ago. However, Croats are not just yDna I2a, however resolved or unresolved. They carry other ydna lineages as well, which is clearly outlined in the article to which I linked.

In addition, a man's yDna accounts for about 2% of total genomic make-up. The rest is autosomal dna. Autosomally, there is very little difference between any people in the Balkans, and almost none between the various groups in the western Balkans. The evidence is there, and it's very recent.

There was a very strong desire among some Croatian anthropologists that percentage of I2a be as large as possible. Intentional selecting a sample can garble results.

In a way that is politically understandable, they wanted to have as few R1a, to show that they do not have much to do with the Slavs.

But Croatian R1a is significant and with the new results, things are changing, and there are international researches.

Maciamo, collecting all results, came to the following for Croatia: I2a = 37%, R1a = 24%, and there are big differences by regions, north of Croatia is more R1a, south is more I2a.

It is irony that some people in Serbia loved to have larger R1a, but according Maciamo in Serbia: I2a = 34%, R1a = 16%.

R1a is larger in Croatia than in Serbia and hence some Croatian and Serbian nationalists are sad.

Balkan skirmishes, it is very hard for nonBalkans to understand it.

Garrick
03-06-15, 23:52
I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which have Croats comes from White Croatia, the same have Bosniaks, Montenegrins and Serbs in almost half of population.

R1a Z280 type which have Croats have also Serbs, Bosnians, etc.

R1a type Z280 has the same epicenter in White Croatia..

About 65 percent of the male population in Croatia came from White Croatia...

Similar percentage is in Bosnians, Montenegrins etc .. it is logical that we are same people becouse we came as White Croats on Balkans..Genetically it is undeniable..

Someone can find Serbs, Bosniacs etc. in the Balkans with haplogroup I2a1b2a1a3 A356 all he or she wants.

Did Croats gain a certificate of this haplogroup? It is stupid.

White Croatia is myth. Nobody knows if White Croatia existed and where it was.

(Of course and White Serbia is myth).

In these myths only children can believe.

Someone can read serious scientists, for example: Becoming Slav, Becoming Croats, by Daniel Dzino:

Danijel Dzino is Australian scientist, Macquarie University. He is Croatian origin.

page 112

The story of the arrival of the Croats and Serbs from 'White Croatia' and 'White Serbia' is nothing more than away to explain and rationalise the social and cultural change through a misinterpretation of the events from Late Antiquity. The narrative is no different from too obviously fictive story that Diocletian founded Diocleia, or that he instigated the Roman colonisation of Dalmatia, which was the origo gentis of the Dalmatian Romani. If Constantine indeed used the existing origo gentis of the Croats in chapter 30, we cannot see it is realistic, or even original, especially because an almost identical myth of the arrival of Bulgars was mentoined in Theopanes the Confessor, as well as the patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople.

page 114

Therefore, if the story of the arrival of the Croats in the DAI is indeed part of the Croat oral discourse, then we can see it as politically and ideologically motivated myth that legitimated the existing situation and the political domination the group over Dalmatia and Pannonia through common ancestors: the imaginary brothers and sisters mentoined in the DAI.

DAI = De Administrando Imperio

Angela
04-06-15, 00:00
There was a very strong desire among some Croatian anthropologists that percentage of I2a be as large as possible. Intentional selecting a sample can garble results.

In a way that is politically understandable, they wanted to have as few R1a, to show that they do not have much to do with the Slavs.

But Croatian R1a is significant and with the new results, things are changing, and there are international researches.

Maciamo, collecting all results, came to the following for Croatia: I2a = 37%, R1a = 24%, and there are big differences by regions, north of Croatia is more R1a, south is more I2a.

It is irony that some people in Serbia loved to have larger R1a, but according Maciamo in Serbia: I2a = 34%, R1a = 16%.

R1a is larger in Croatia than in Serbia and hence some Croatian and Serbian nationalists are sad.

Balkan skirmishes, it is very hard for nonBalkans to understand it.

I just find it all very sad, Garrick. It's a beautiful part of the world, with lovely people under other circumstances, as I can attest as I have a number of friends from there: Croatia, Albania, Romania, and even one from Serbia. The best boss I ever had was a woman executive of Serbian ancestry, not that she could speak a word of it. :) Thankfully, although the others were all natives they had already immigrated to the U.S. by the time of all the fratricide, but they have relatives who suffered because of it.

It's absolutely senseless. If modern dna can't make people see how similar they are then it makes you wonder if there's any hope for humanity.

Garrick
04-06-15, 00:52
I just find it all very sad, Garrick. It's a beautiful part of the world, with lovely people under other circumstances, as I can attest as I have a number of friends from there: Croatia, Albania, Romania, and even one from Serbia. The best boss I ever had was a woman executive of Serbian ancestry, not that she could speak a word of it. :) Thankfully, although the others were all natives they had already immigrated to the U.S. by the time of all the fratricide, but they have relatives who suffered because of it.

It's absolutely senseless. If modern dna can't make people see how similar they are then it makes you wonder if there's any hope for humanity.

Serbia and Croatia are pretty countries, with reach cultures and much other things.

And as to the origin, everyone can see that Serbs and Croats have a similar haplogroups, differences are small.

But the conflict between them, most irrational by its nature, is difficult for someone from the outside to understand, which is a shame because cooperation is much better.

There are some historical reasons, when modern nations formed in XIX century, ethnicity in the Balkans is determined by religion, religion brings people together but different religions can divide people.

But there are good role models, the Serbs and Croats can learn how Scandinavian nations know how to cooperate with each other

Tomenable
04-06-15, 12:53
^ As for the "R1a = Slavs; I2a = Non-Slavs" notion:

Do you think that the guy with R1a Z280 who died 3100 years ago near Halberstadt was Slavic-speaking?

The TMRCA and modern distribution of I2a-Din looks like a better candidate for a haplogroup that spread with Slavs.

Of course assuming that early Slavs had only one haplogrup, or one subclade of one haplogroup, is ridiculous to start with.

In general the more I research this, the more I think that associating a given hg with one specific ethno-linguistic group is ridiculous. For example there is absolutely no evidence that such R1b-U106 was originally and exclusively Germanic, and that it only spread with Germanics. Its TMRCA is much older than Germanic language. There is also no evidence that Slavs had a monopoly for R1a. It seems that the modern range of distribution of R1a in North-Eastern Europe was already established in the Bronze Age, considering recent ancient DNA finds.

For example Copper-Bronze Age patterns in Y-DNA show that the boundary of R1b (to the west) and R1a (to the east) was in Central Germany. This looks the same way today - if anuthing, nowadays the boundary is more to the east, closer to the Oder River.

But I2a-Din is a fairly young subclade of I2, and it could be spreading with Slavs. Though maybe with someone else too.

noUseForAname
05-06-15, 01:10
It is here the most recent and comprehensive scientific research:


According to the source we can conclude that the most Ancient indigenous current populations of Europe are:
(Considering Early Neolithic to mid Neolithic ONLY, because if we go more back they should have came from somewhere else like everyone descend from Africa)


1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque
7: Tuscan
8: Bulgarian
9: French
10: Croatian
11: Arcadian
12: English
13: Ukrainian
14: Hungarian
15: Belarusian
16: Czech
17: Scottish
18: Icelandic
19: Estonian
20: Lithuanian
21: Norwegian

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg


So obviously the more EEF and WHG the more Ancient European, the more ANE Yamna the later in Europe.

This might also correlate with my suppositions (from the start of this thread) that before ancient Greek inhabitants they were native inhabitants of the so called Pelazgian.
And it might mean that the only possible major group of Pelazgians are E-V13 (which i support) or !2e.



Here are more details....

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

LeBrok
05-06-15, 03:34
It is here the most recent and comprehensive scientific research:

According to the source we can conclude that the most Ancient indigenous current populations of Europe are:

1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque
7: Tuscan
8: Bulgarian
9: French
10: Croatian
11: Arcadian
12: English
13: Ukrainian
14: Hungarian
15: Belarusian
16: Czech
17: Scottish
18: Icelandic
19: Estonian
20: Lithuanian
21: Norwegian

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg


So obviously the more EN and WEHG the more Ancient European, the more Yamna the later in Europe.

This might also correlates with my suppositions (from the start of this thread) that before ancient Greek inhabitants they were native inhabitants of the so called Pelazgian.
And it might mean that the only possible major group of Pelazgians are E-V13 (which i support) or !2e



Here are more details....

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf
Please don't mix the EEF, ANE and WHG, which are part of autosomal (whole genome - Y DNA) composition of Europeans with uni-parental haplotype markers of E-V13, R1b and others, which are indicators of Y chromosome only (2% of whole genome). Technical we can have E-V13 person with 30 percent of EEF. There also might be R1a person in Sardinia with 90% of EEF.
WHG and ANE were admixtures of original European hunter-gatherers, ANE was in Eastern Eruope. EEF, or rather Early Neolithic Farmers admixture, came from Near East about 10 years ago.

Yetos
05-06-15, 06:51
Again crossing 2 different variants to extract a conclusion,
that can work as possibility but not as determing method,

logic is not

Policeman is an instrument (of law)
Guitar is a (musical) instrument
so Policeman is a Guitar,

Crossing 2 different variants, can give only possible, but not certain/determing results,


possibility of might be like this, is not 100% certain, and sometimes can be correct, and some not, cause Policeman is not a Violin,

it can be used, to create an hypothesis, a possible scenario, which might be TRUE or FALSE using logic, etc
but not to determing or certify something, a THEORY, or a LAW

Garrick
05-06-15, 19:02
It is here the most recent and comprehensive scientific research:


According to the source we can conclude that the most Ancient indigenous current populations of Europe are:
(Considering Early Neolithic to mid Neolithic ONLY, because if we go more back they should have came from somewhere else like everyone descend from Africa)


1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque
7: Tuscan
8: Bulgarian
9: French
10: Croatian
11: Arcadian
12: English
13: Ukrainian
14: Hungarian
15: Belarusian
16: Czech
17: Scottish
18: Icelandic
19: Estonian
20: Lithuanian
21: Norwegian

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg


So obviously the more EEF and WHG the more Ancient European, the more ANE Yamna the later in Europe.

This might also correlate with my suppositions (from the start of this thread) that before ancient Greek inhabitants they were native inhabitants of the so called Pelazgian.
And it might mean that the only possible major group of Pelazgians are E-V13 (which i support) or !2e.



Here are more details....

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

This is misinterpretation. Mixing two different entities. Therefore conclusions are completely wrong.

noUseForAname
06-06-15, 05:24
This is misinterpretation. Mixing two different entities. Therefore conclusions are completely wrong.


So you think you are smarter than 45 scientist of this study and coming up with your one worded conclusions as of completely wrong?....Give me a break please.


So from 69 samples there are only around 30 from Early Neolithic (including 1 E-V13) to Mid Neolithic (all the Yamnays and R1a are after mid Neolithic Bronze Age In Europe excluding Russia)

And those around 30 samples from Early Neolithic to Mid Neolithic (10,000 to 5,000 ybp) are mostly outside Europe (Current Russia)
Therefore it makes sense from those small samples (Early Neolithic in Europe) to find the most current native indigenous populations of Europe.

in other words why would the scientist then came upon conclusion that Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd (are most indigenous in Europe)?

It makes sense because as per Albanians they have E-V13 (over 40%) and another Ie2 by 15% then we have over 65% (Which might mean EEF) which is pretty high percentage


I mean we can interpret the study but who are Me and YOU to know better than the scientists(this is a major study, 45 scientist in one study, one of the biggest one), therefore they are not stupid that they put Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd.

Garrick
06-06-15, 06:16
So you think you are smarter than 45 scientist of this study and coming up with your one worded conclusions as of completely wrong?....Give me a break please.


So from 69 samples there are only around 30 from Early Neolithic (including 1 E-V13) to Mid Neolithic (all the Yamnays and R1a are after mid Neolithic Bronze Age In Europe excluding Russia)

And those around 30 samples from Early Neolithic to Mid Neolithic (10,000 to 5,000 ybp) are mostly outside Europe (Current Russia)
Therefore it makes sense from those small samples (Early Neolithic in Europe) to find the most current native indigenous populations of Europe.

in other words why would the scientist then came upon conclusion that Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd (are most indigenous in Europe)?

It makes sense because as per Albanians they have E-V13 (over 40%) and another Ie2 by 15% then we have over 65% (Which might mean EEF) which is pretty high percentage


I mean we can interpret the study but who are Me and YOU to know better than the scientists(this is a major study, 45 scientist in one study, one of the biggest one), therefore they are not stupid that they put Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd.

Very confused, as said previous interlocutors.

You mixed ANE, WHG and EEF with uni-parental markers E-V13, R1a, I2a what is nonsense.

Albanian 2nd is not mean Albanian in the Balkan origin is 2nd, it is big difference, geographical area of origin could be Anatolia, the Caucasus, Moldavia etc.

In the base, you can not come to terms with the fact that no found E samples, only one, but in Spain!

But G2 = 41 & I2 = 18, you probably sow these data.

http://s2.postimg.org/zebg23dw9/Y_DNA_8_do_5_kya.png

Maleth
06-06-15, 10:02
This thread is about Palasgians and the possibility if they might had E-V13 Haplogroup. Do we have any dna samples from ancient burial sites in the Balkan area? No. So who can say? theories assumptions hypothesis. I read that the theory of Johann George that Albanians are descendants of Palasgians on the base of language has been generally scrapped by scholars, but had nothing to do with DNA and haplogroups as no science was around at that time. Some people need to get used to the idea that E-V13 has been around BEFORE slavery, gypsies the Ottoman empire and North African Berbers. I augur Courage :)

noUseForAname
06-06-15, 23:35
Albanian 2nd is not mean Albanian in the Balkan origin is 2nd, it is big difference, geographical area of origin could be Anatolia, the Caucasus, Moldavia etc



Study argues, as i am only representing this Study.

Don't you understand EEF means (Early European Farmers, early Neolithic) the orange color Albanians = 65%
WHG means (Wester European huntergathers) blue color Albanians = 17 %

So only one question i have, how this is not European?...... EEF + WHG = Albanians 82%

ANE means (Yamnaya) green color Albanians = 18%


Of course this means that Albanians are descend from south east Europe since the early Neolithic Period 10,000 years ago.


2nd Question is how could origin be Anatolia or Caucus when we are talking (indigenous inhabitants) from the early European Neolithic (10,000 ybp)?

Garrick
07-06-15, 01:14
Of course this means that Albanians are descend from south east Europe since the early Neolithic Period 10,000 years ago.


No, it doesn't mean. You didn't understand the text. You can read again posts above.

noUseForAname
07-06-15, 02:32
No, it doesn't mean. You didn't understand the text. You can read again posts above.


If you say so, can you answer the 2 questions above then?

LeBrok
07-06-15, 03:05
Study argues, as i am only representing this Study.

Don't you understand EEF means (Early European Neolithic) the orange color Albanians = 65%
WHG means (Wester European huntergathers) blue color Albanians = 17 %

So only one question i have, how this is not European?...... EEF + WHG = Albanians 82%

ANE means (Yamnaya) green color Albanians = 18%


Of course this means that Albanians are descend from south east Europe since the early Neolithic Period 10,000 years ago.


2nd Question is how could origin be Anatolia or Caucus when we are talking (indigenous inhabitants) from the early European Neolithic (10,000 ybp)?
All Europeans, except new immigrants, descend from these three genetic groups, only in different proportions.

Garrick
07-06-15, 03:56
If you say so, can you answer the 2 questions above then?

You pull one piece of the puzzle and say: Eureka. But things don't operate so. Whole puzzle is important.

EEF is complex. This contains ENF and WHG. (EEF = ENF + WHG). But much more ENF than WHG.

Do you know what is ENF?

ENF = Early Neolithic Farmers

It is component from the ancient Near East (including Anatolia, Caucasus, near).

If someone found 82% for Albanians it means:

ENF + WHG = 82%

We have no knowledge how much in ENF is from the Near East/Anatolia/Caucasus/Balkans/South Western Europe etc.

It needs a lot of researches in different epochs to know more.

Do you understand, EEF is hybrid component.

noUseForAname
07-06-15, 08:53
We have no knowledge how much in ENF is from the Near East/Anatolia/Caucasus/Balkans/South Western Europe etc.
Do you understand, EEF is hybrid component.


Thats why i mentioned Early Neolithic through mid Neolithic (10,000 - 5,000 ybp) because through that period we have early Neolithic Farmers from south east Europe.
Now we are not talking here before 10,000 (please pay attention to wording)

Therefore, Albanians and Greeks are descendants from early European Farmers from south east Europe since the early Neolithic Period 10,000 years ago.


Thats why I also placed a 2nd Question like below (scientist didn't go deeper as of where did those inhabitants Sardinians Albanians Greeks came from before early Neolithic and Mesolithic)
2nd Question is how could origin be Anatolia or Caucus when we are talking (indigenous inhabitants) from the early European Neolithic (10,000 ybp)?....so we are not talking where did those early Neolithic European farmers came from.


Havent read the whole paper but it looks like they have found those populations which have admixure with near east...

Fig. S9.24 shows that when WHG admixture is added to EN, residuals for most European populations are reduced, consistent with most Europeans not being descended from EN farmers of Europe. Four populations indicate no change in residuals: Sardinians are the population that is closest to early European farmers2,7-9,12 with an estimated ~90% descent from them
(ref. 2 and Fig. S9.23b), while Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews, and Sicilians may have Near Eastern admixture not mediated via early European farmers2.

noUseForAname
07-06-15, 09:25
All Europeans, except new immigrants, descend from these three genetic groups, only in different proportions.

Correct, so it looks like the proportion of Sardinians Albanians and Greek have the highest percentage as per descendents from the early Neolithic European Farmers


Fig. S9.24 shows that when WHG admixture is added to EN, residuals for most European populations are reduced, consistent with most Europeans not being descended from EN farmers of Europe. Four populations indicate no change in residuals: Sardinians are the population that is closest to early European farmers2,7-9,12 with an estimated ~90% descent from them
(ref. 2 and Fig. S9.23b), while Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews, and Sicilians may have Near Eastern admixture not mediated via early European farmers2.