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Angela
04-11-14, 17:36
Bicicleur:IMO the Natufians were J2a, who started spreading agriculture (in a still very primitive form) from the Levant after the end of the youngest dryas (11600 years ago)
Maybe J2a-M67 then split in some tribe staying in the Levant and another expanding over a large area - the Caucasus - Armenia - NW Iran...


According to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakh_peoples the origin of the Nakh people is not very clear
there are theories about arrival from the fertile crescent as early as 8-10000 year BC
Nakh people would be a remnant of this 2nd J2a-M67 tribe
(the first tribe could have been part of the 1st neolithic expansion from the Levant to Cyprus 10800 years ago and Crete 9000 years ago)

the BR2 sample would hint toward a much later expansion - late bronze age - from northern Caucasus via the Pontic steppe to the Balkans and further

I tend to doubt that the Natufians had anything to do with J2.; I think yDna "E" lineages are a better bet, although I'm just speculating too, and ultimately it doesn't matter; the huge expansion of J2a was more northern centered, and flowed south during a later period, I think.

I think there's a south to north autosomal cline , tied to J1e and Semitic speakers ( even if theories about J1 originating around the Taurus Mountains are correct) , and a north to south autosomal cline tied to J2. The mtDNA in the Near East is largely the same mtDna that went to Europe with farmers. (This was borne out by the relatively recent paper on the mtDna of Crete, which found that the mtDna in Crete is basically like that of Europe.)


I think you can see the split in terms of ANE. The Bedouin have no ANE, and the further north you go toward the Caucasus the higher the frequency of ANE. I’m not saying that J2 was totally ANE, but I think that it was in a position to be heavily ANE influenced. The Iranian plateau and the surrounding areas make sense to me for both the "R" lineages and the "J2" lineages as staging areas, with, as Dienekes pointed out in his comments about the Grugni et al paper, J2 more to the west and R more to the east. In the Metal Ages J2 moved both west and south, with J2b even moving east toward India if you take a look at that graphic.

Greying Wanderer
05-11-14, 04:57
10.4% of this marker is in the italian alps as per coia 2013 paper...........more so with G than E , but its not unreasonable if the J was middle-east branch instead of the Caucasus branch like the raetics

"10.4% of this marker is in the italian alps"

IIRC there was a Jadeitite network centered in Italy somewhere.

That's what I'd do if knew more - look at the various early trade networks, Amber, Jadeitite, Obsidian, Copper etc and see if the pattern for any of the low frequency but very widely spread haplogroups fits a pattern of trade branches radiating out from one of those centers.

Probably nothing but could be fun.

edit: with a blank spot where the original epicenter got squished by people who wanted their stuff.

Robert6
20-11-14, 18:53
Comparison of Neolithic farmer "NE1" with modern populations
https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/ne1ibdext.png?w=750&h=406


Comparison of Neolithic farmer "Stuttgart" with modern populations
https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/lbkibdext.png?w=750&h=406


http://verenich.wordpress.com/2014/11/20/%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%88%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D 0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5-%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D1%8B-%D0%B4%D0%BB%D1%8F-%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BD%D 0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2/

Sile
20-11-14, 19:12
"10.4% of this marker is in the italian alps"

IIRC there was a Jadeitite network centered in Italy somewhere.

That's what I'd do if knew more - look at the various early trade networks, Amber, Jadeitite, Obsidian, Copper etc and see if the pattern for any of the low frequency but very widely spread haplogroups fits a pattern of trade branches radiating out from one of those centers.

Probably nothing but could be fun.

edit: with a blank spot where the original epicenter got squished by people who wanted their stuff.

http://www.academia.edu/7595082/Jadeitite_from_the_Monviso_meta-ophiolite_western_Alps_occurrence_and_genesis

Maciamo
20-11-14, 19:17
I tend to doubt that the Natufians had anything to do with J2.; I think yDna "E" lineages are a better bet, although I'm just speculating too, and ultimately it doesn't matter; the huge expansion of J2a was more northern centered, and flowed south during a later period, I think.

Interesting. I imagine that Natufians to have been Y-DNA G2 (G2a, G2b), and mtDNA N1, K1a and X. If they had anything to do with the domestication of wheat and barley and become the first cereal farmers, then they must have carried Basal Eurasian lineages like early farmers.

I still think that E-V13 came to Europe in the late Upper Paleolithic, while E-M34 moved from N-E Africa into the Middle East with the spread of Afroasiatic languages c. 5000 years ago.

Tomenable
29-01-16, 20:29
Modern Poles are the group most closely related (autosomally) to BR2:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/12/22/1518445113

See Figure 3.:

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368/F3.expansion.html

http://s23.postimg.org/biopv521n/image.png

Angela
29-01-16, 20:56
It looks like a sliver of Italy including coastal Liguria and NW Tuscany is also pretty far up there in terms of BR2. I have no idea what it means, though. Maybe just that they were so isolated in the mountain areas that they've preserved the signal better?

It's difficult to tell from the graphic but it also seems to show some increased frequency for the Irish Bronze Age sample compared to the rest of Italy. I think that may be Celtic gene flow first millennium BC. All these badly done studies using modern genomes come up with a late "Welsh" admixture in the area.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28657-Breakdown-of-R1b-subclades-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29?highlight=Boattini