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LeBrok
23-10-14, 22:30
Continue off topic discussions here regarding Balkan issues.

albanopolis
24-10-14, 23:09
I wonder whether the EU now regrets using its military muscle to create Kosovo.

No, they don't. They have created a small country who aspires to join Europe and Nato.
Contrary to Serbia who celebrated the Belgrade liberation day a month ahead of its real time ,with a North Korea style military parade, just to show Putin how much they love him.
Serbia and Greece are two nation with their stomachs in Europe and North America, but they hearts in Russia.
Albania and Kosovo are one nation with our stomachs and hearts in Europe and North America.
Understand?

Garrick
25-10-14, 01:22
I wonder whether the EU now regrets using its military muscle to create Kosovo.

Aberdeen
The aim of every Muslim is spread of Islam, in any way.

The ultimate goal is Caliphate encompassing the entire Planet, all human Muslims.

But non-Muslims (Christians, Atheists etc.) don't understand all the creative ways Muslims spread Islam.

For example, in Islam lying is permissible (directed towards non-Muslim).

You can read:

Islam 101: Lying is permissible

http://loganswarning.com/2009/12/15/islam-101-lying-is-permissible/

"Koran allows Muslims to lie in a way that can easily mean to hide their pro-Sharia agenda for non-Muslims".

...
You can think that some Muslims want be non-Muslim allies, but caution.

All Muslims on the world belong to a community - ummah.

For Muslims non-Muslims are kafirs.

Someone can read what Muslims think about kafirs.

Kafir

www.politicalislam.com/blog/kafir (http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/kafir)


...
In Pakistan there are areas where inhabitants enthusiastically embrace China.

For some reason China stood on their side against Hindus.

But, do they really love Chinese so much, and Chinese are kafirs, too.

If the Chinese were weaker they would see that love.

Same case when Muslims embrace Germany, USA, etc., especially they helped them against non-Muslims, what they think about kafirs is hidden.

...
Lying for Islam is Taqiyya.

A video about Taqiyya:

Taqiyya - lying for Islam

"Taqiyya is about deception -- lulling Western people into a false sense of security..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvlvS2a2AVE

...
(I do not offend Muslims, only stating the basic; I’m strictly against violation of civil rights just because someone is Muslim; Islam is big, encompasses many areas in the world and dialogue with Islam is necessity).

Garrick
25-10-14, 02:26
No, they don't. They have created a small country who aspires to join Europe and Nato.
Contrary to Serbia who celebrated the Belgrade liberation day a month ahead of its real time ,with a North Korea style military parade, just to show Putin how much they love him.
Serbia and Greece are two nation with their stomachs in Europe and North America, but they hearts in Russia.
Albania and Kosovo are one nation with our stomachs and hearts in Europe and North America.
Understand?

Today's facts,

Religious of Kosovo: Muslims 94.7%.

Religious of Albania: Muslims 58.79%, Undeclared 13.79%.

Religious of Macedonia (FYROM): Muslims: 33.3%.

It was different yesterday.

...
This is not offend, only question, maybe you can say to us how many Albanians from Kosovo, Albania and FYROM are in ISIS now, maybe Kurds know better, in Internet can be seen high numbers, but not precise.

...
Serbia today is not medium rich country (only in bombing, 1999, estimated damage was at least $100 billion). Serbia, as Montenegro, is in the process of joining EU. But Serbia can pursue independent foreign and economic policy. Russia wants to buy agricultural products outside EU, in Latin America, Asia, etc. and Serbia. Today, every government is considering how to increase exports and create a business. Serbia can increase agricultural production and export more to Russia. And not only agriculture, other business area, too.

Many was asking me whether parade was necessity. It is 70 years since the liberation of Belgrade from Nazi. I do not know if the parade was needed but certainly it is a valuable jubilee.

We can read these days about possible entering ISIS fighters in south Europe, i. e. Balkans. Serbian army is third in the Balkans, after Greek and Romanian. Maybe in today's circumstances parade made sense, not only for jubilee, I think parade would be held and that Russian president had not come, his reason was related to the fact that in the liberation of Belgrade participated jointly Yugoslav People army and Soviet Red army.

...
And return to the Kurds, in Serbia Kurds are favorite and their struggle for national affirmation.

Yetos
25-10-14, 07:00
Yes it is about kurds, but you talked about "all the muslims", stating that all the muslims do this and all the muslims do that and how they have a plan to "islamize the entire planet" etc. That is why i replied.
You have to realize that the muslims of europe are raised with a different culture than the muslims of the middle east.I'm saying that because i've lived in a country where christians and muslims have been working together for a very long time.You can't tell the difference between a christian and muslim albanian.Actually, most of the people i've spend the time with i didn't even know what their religion was, because just like they didn't ask me, i had no interest to ask them either.

in the christian new testament we read
'πορευθεντες μαθητευσατε και κυρηξετε το ευαγγελιον πασα τα εθνη'
' now go, and teach, and preach the evangelium to all nations'
same is in Quran, only in Quran is more intolerant to infidels,
yet historically in the name of 1 god, genocides happened.

albanopolis
25-10-14, 09:37
Today's facts,

Religious of Kosovo: Muslims 94.7%.

Religious of Albania: Muslims 58.79%, Undeclared 13.79%.

Religious of Macedonia (FYROM): Muslims: 33.3%.

It was different yesterday.

...
This is not offend, only question, maybe you can say to us how many Albanians from Kosovo, Albania and FYROM are in ISIS now, maybe Kurds know better, in Internet can be seen high numbers, but not precise.

...
Serbia today is not medium rich country (only in bombing, 1999, estimated damage was at least $100 billion). Serbia, as Montenegro, is in the process of joining EU. But Serbia can pursue independent foreign and economic policy. Russia wants to buy agricultural products outside EU, in Latin America, Asia, etc. and Serbia. Today, every government is considering how to increase exports and create a business. Serbia can increase agricultural production and export more to Russia. And not only agriculture, other business area, too.

Many was asking me whether parade was necessity. It is 70 years since the liberation of Belgrade from Nazi. I do not know if the parade was needed but certainly it is a valuable jubilee.

We can read these days about possible entering ISIS fighters in south Europe, i. e. Balkans. Serbian army is third in the Balkans, after Greek and Romanian. Maybe in today's circumstances parade made sense, not only for jubilee, I think parade would be held and that Russian president had not come, his reason was related to the fact that in the liberation of Belgrade participated jointly Yugoslav People army and Soviet Red army.

...
And return to the Kurds, in Serbia Kurds are favorite and their struggle for national affirmation.


Countries of Europe including Slavic ones are united against Russian aggression. Now SERBS either are the smartest or their hearts are in Russia. Do you think the west is stupid? If you stay close enough to Russia Sandzak could soon be part of Kosovo. Yes I know you are for Kurdish independence because of Turkey. I tooam for Kurdish independence for principled reasons.
Now let's not hijack this thread, open another one if you want the tirade to go on....

albanopolis
25-10-14, 10:03
Today's facts,

Religious of Kosovo: Muslims 94.7%.

Religious of Albania: Muslims 58.79%, Undeclared 13.79%.

Religious of Macedonia (FYROM): Muslims: 33.3%.

It was different yesterday.

...
This is not offend, only question, maybe you can say to us how many Albanians from Kosovo, Albania and FYROM are in ISIS now, maybe Kurds know better, in Internet can be seen high numbers, but not precise.

...
Serbia today is not medium rich country (only in bombing, 1999, estimated damage was at least $100 billion). Serbia, as Montenegro, is in the process of joining EU. But Serbia can pursue independent foreign and economic policy. Russia wants to buy agricultural products outside EU, in Latin America, Asia, etc. and Serbia. Today, every government is considering how to increase exports and create a business. Serbia can increase agricultural production and export more to Russia. And not only agriculture, other business area, too.

Many was asking me whether parade was necessity. It is 70 years since the liberation of Belgrade from Nazi. I do not know if the parade was needed but certainly it is a valuable jubilee.

We can read these days about possible entering ISIS fighters in south Europe, i. e. Balkans. Serbian army is third in the Balkans, after Greek and Romanian. Maybe in today's circumstances parade made sense, not only for jubilee, I think parade would be held and that Russian president had not come, his reason was related to the fact that in the liberation of Belgrade participated jointly Yugoslav People army and Soviet Red army.

...
And return to the Kurds, in Serbia Kurds are favorite and their struggle for national affirmation.
one more thing I want to remind you: There are muslims from Sandzak with ISIS too. Or they are not part of Serbia?
About your military army: We Albanians have the White House telephone number. We can call them and your armies will be a joke.

albanopolis
25-10-14, 22:13
Good point Gorgonzola, lets keep it on topic.
It is exactly my understanding of Albania too.

Interesting new phenomenon is unfolding. Some Westerners are arriving now in Kurdistan to fight against ISIS.

Albania has a poverty problem. Some ISIS recruiters are using the money as a tool to inspire the conscripts. Albanian government has admitted to social dimension of the phenomenon but poverty is a long battle to be wan. The government has stepped up its efforts by putting the imams who preach jihad in jail. I wander the ISIS fighters from the west what motivates them to enter that dangerous adventure. Generally the west has networks of welfare that support the individuals in generous way.

Garrick
25-10-14, 23:48
Countries of Europe including Slavic ones are united against Russian aggression. Now SERBS either are the smartest or their hearts are in Russia. Do you think the west is stupid? If you stay close enough to Russia Sandzak could soon be part of Kosovo. Yes I know you are for Kurdish independence because of Turkey. I tooam for Kurdish independence for principled reasons.
Now let's not hijack this thread, open another one if you want the tirade to go on....


one more thing I want to remind you: There are muslims from Sandzak with ISIS too. Or they are not part of Serbia?
About your military army: We Albanians have the White House telephone number. We can call them and your armies will be a joke.

Did you watch football matches in Czech Republic or Slovakia these days? You could see banners in favor Serbia. Do you think drone with "greater albania" was good idea? Wrong. You can ask Czechs or Slovaks about it.

Russia has nothing to do with it. Serbs always had very good relations with Czechs, Slovaks and Poles. Slovak Lutheran pastor Tomasik, wrote words, which later became text for Yugoslav anthem: Hey Slavs.
...

Why do you here write about Bosniacs? They speak language which is very similar to Serbian, and we all understand each other, until yesterday it was all one language Serbian-Croatian. Do you think they love learn Albanian and forget their mother tongue? Or problem is because some scientists in last time claim that Bosniacs are descendants of Illyrians. What they have with Kosovo, unless you think of Muslim religious state, Caliphate etc.

In Serbia without Kosovo, live about 3.7% Muslims, mostly Bosniacs (there are about 15,000 Serbs Muslims, mostly children from mixed marriages where one parent is Serb). Several Bosniacs, citizens of Serbia went to ISIS, it was not big number. And state has adopted very strict law about people who go out to fight abroad (not only in ISIS).
...

I gave ranking first three armies in the Balkans according to estimates of analysts. What does have to do with the US army, which the ranked first in the world, we talk about Balkan armies. Regarding the phone number is ridiculous comment, things do not work the way you are talking.
...

Serbia enters in EU and it is a matter of time. Citizens of Serbia gave full support to parties advocating European integrations. Parties which advocate neutrality or some other integrations were not pass the threshold (5%). Serbia is European country and it is normal behavior its citizens. Although it is painful some European countries bombed Serbia in 1999, inflicted causalties and enormous damage.

Personally I'm for European federation, many times I wrote about it.

...
Everyone could see what I wrote about Kurds, and it is principled support to a brave people who deserve full national affirmation.

Garrick
26-10-14, 00:04
It is exactly my understanding of Albania too.


Yes, and we all wrote about that more time. Enver Hoxha abolished all religions and declared Albania as atheist country. Although now the influence of Islam in Albania grows, Islam is much stronger among people in Kosovo and Western Macedonia.




Interesting new phenomenon is unfolding. Some Westerners are arriving now in Kurdistan to fight against ISIS.

It is great news. It means we can be more optimistic.

albanopolis
26-10-14, 01:04
Did you watch football matches in Czech Republic or Slovakia these days? You could see banners in favor Serbia. Do you think drone with "greater albania" was good idea? Wrong. You can ask Czechs or Slovaks about it.

Russia has nothing to do with it. Serbs always had very good relations with Czechs, Slovaks and Poles. Slovak Lutheran pastor Tomasik, wrote words, which later became text for Yugoslav anthem: Hey Slavs.
...

Why do you here write about Bosniacs? They speak language which is very similar to Serbian, and we all understand each other, until yesterday it was all one language Serbian-Croatian. Do you think they love learn Albanian and forget their mother tongue? Or problem is because some scientists in last time claim that Bosniacs are descendants of Illyrians. What they have with Kosovo, unless you think of Muslim religious state, Caliphate etc.

In Serbia without Kosovo, live about 3.7% Muslims, mostly Bosniacs (there are about 15,000 Serbs Muslims, mostly children from mixed marriages where one parent is Serb). Several Bosniacs, citizens of Serbia went to ISIS, it was not big number. And state has adopted very strict law about people who go out to fight abroad (not only in ISIS).
...

I gave ranking first three armies in the Balkans according to estimates of analysts. What does have to do with the US army, which the ranked first in the world, we talk about Balkan armies. Regarding the phone number is ridiculous comment, things do not work the way you are talking.
...

Serbia enters in EU and it is a matter of time. Citizens of Serbia gave full support to parties advocating European integrations. Parties which advocate neutrality or some other integrations were not pass the threshold (5%). Serbia is European country and it is normal behavior its citizens. Although it is painful some European countries bombed Serbia in 1999, inflicted causalties and enormous damage.

Personally I'm for European federation, many times I wrote about it.

...
Everyone could see what I wrote about Kurds, and it is principled support to a brave people who deserve full national affirmation.

I have heard imams from Sandzak who say that Serbian government has banned or closed archaeological sites for fear of the outsiders seen the truth. The truth is, as the imams claim, they are slavsized Illyrians. As you might know Albanians claim the same heritage. So if you continue demonizing Islam you might wake up, them wanted to join Kosovo. As for the language they will be allowed to keep the language they know. (This is not Albanian claim by the way. Its my personal claim).
The slogans; "Kosovo je Serbia" appearing as you saying in Czech Republic and Slovakia are not news for us. I was surprised though to see one in an Izraeli match. I have even seen one in Spain. There was not effort to remove it by the Izraelis. Were they Serbs living in Izrael or Izraeli I don't know.
I know there is a Slavic solidarity and that will continue, but regarding Kosovo they have no strength to change anything of its outcome. Slovaks have their own Hungarians and Checks have the Sudetenland. If Germans wake up and have no erection one morning, Slovaks and Checks knock at the Russian door.
I believe we will see more of them as desperation grows. Kosovo will get in NATO and Serbs will not dare to talk about attacking Kosovo, let alone doing anything.
Now, the bombing of Serbia by the west was among others the monetary debt you owned to them. They were worried they will never recover that money and they destroyed what they had given to you ,out of rage.
Now that famous Army you have enjoy all.
You keep that army to frighten Albanians or Croatians. Since with Greeks you are friends, so you are with Romanians we have to take notice that. So we have to keep some phone numbers. We have the number of Pentagon, Turkey and Germany I think.
Turkey's army alone is as big as Serbians multiplied by 15.

Gorgonzola
26-10-14, 02:52
in the christian new testament we read
'πορευθεντες μαθητευσατε και κυρηξετε το ευαγγελιον πασα τα εθνη'
' now go, and teach, and preach the evangelium to all nations'
same is in Quran, only in Quran is more intolerant to infidels,
yet historically in the name of 1 god, genocides happened.
There are different type of muslims, the ones who are born that way,because they have inhereted it, the ones who convert religion during life, the ones whose religion was imposed with force by, let's say, another state or empire and others whose religion doesn't play any important role in their life, but still just consider themselfs to follow islam.But there are also violent and terrorist islamists, which is a disgrace of course.
I was talking about what i've seen myself here.


Albania has a poverty problem. Some ISIS recruiters are using the money as a tool to inspire the conscripts. Albanian government has admitted to social dimension of the phenomenon but poverty is a long battle to be wan. The government has stepped up its efforts by putting the imams who preach jihad in jail. I wander the ISIS fighters from the west what motivates them to enter that dangerous adventure. Generally the west has networks of welfare that support the individuals in generous way.
Its not just the albanians, but many other people from different countries are recruited secretly.There is also a big number of people from Serbia, Norway, America, Canada,Germany, England etc, like i already said.


Did you watch football matches in Czech Republic or Slovakia these days? You could see banners in favor Serbia. Do you think drone with "greater albania" was good idea? Wrong. You can ask Czechs or Slovaks about it.
Did you think that screaming and shouting inside and outside your stadium during the whole match vs Albania "Kill and slaughter so that the Albanian doesn't exist" was a good idea?You can ask the entire world about it.
Or maybe it was a good idea whistling during the time that the anthem of Albania, which is a national symbol, was playing in the stadium?
Or maybe the huligans entering the field and attacking the defendless albanian players with everything they had, was a good idea?


Yes, and we all wrote about that more time. Enver Hoxha abolished all religions and declared Albania as atheist country. Although now the influence of Islam in Albania grows, Islam is much stronger among people in Kosovo and Western Macedonia.
How do you know which religious influence is going up and which is going down amongst Albanians?As far as i know Christianity and Atheism are on the growth within the Albanian population.
When E.Hoxha abolished religions, every type of religious practice was prohibited during the entire communism period, so the logic that one religion isn't stronger in Albania because it was nullified in that time, doesn't really stand here.
The Albanians have been living with religious divisions for a very long time now, even before the turks conquered the balkans.This is why i was saying that religion doesn't mean much and isn't a problem if you are an Albanian.

BOOK HERE (http://books.google.al/books?id=50GTIhntKvYC&pg=PA381&lpg=PA381&dq="Prior+to+the+Turkish+conquest,+the+ghegs+(the+ chief+tribal+group+in+northern+Albania)+had+found+ in+Roman+Catholicism+a+means+of+resisting+the+Slav s,+and+though+Albanian+Orthodoxy+remained+importan t+among+the+tosks+(the+chief+tribal+group+in+south ern+Albania),..."&source=bl&ots=zTtZkS653-&sig=524zM4q2H9HyiVm8gFvQEFVTmjo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gENMVMb5DIfOygOl1oGQCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22Prior%20to%20the%20Turkish%20conquest%2C%20th e%20ghegs%20(the%20chief%20tribal%20group%20in%20n orthern%20Albania)%20had%20found%20in%20Roman%20Ca tholicism%20a%20means%20of%20resisting%20the%20Sla vs%2C%20and%20though%20Albanian%20Orthodoxy%20rema ined%20important%20among%20the%20tosks%20(the%20ch ief%20tribal%20group%20in%20southern%20Albania)%2C ...%22&f=false)

"Prior to the Turkish conquest, the ghegs had found in Roman Catholicism a means of resisting the Slavs, and Albanian Orthodoxy remained important among the tosks "
The religious divisions have existed since the east-west schism, within the albanians.

Yetos
26-10-14, 08:27
In the society where I come from women are held in higher standard.
They are considered the symbol of beauty, intelligence and humanism. Many times they have exerted a lot of influence on the society.They are expected to bring to life the next generation after the present one. War causes a lot of traumatic brain diseases. How will they raise their newborn? Did you know that a female is a lot worth compared to a male? A female can bring to life 5 babies, but a male can 100 000. So a women must be protected to keep the humanity going.
I like to remind you a story: I think Bernard Show said ones that when Don Quixote learned how to read he become a gentleman. But when he started to believe what he was reading he became a laughing stock. Do you really believe the press when they claim that Kurdish female fighters are a nightmare for ISIS fighters?
ISIS fighters are a organisation where about 5 people have the ability to think. The rest are brainless criminals. They have no ideology or believes or education. They are simply crazy. They get exited by the smell of blood and the noise of battlefield, many intoxicated. Simply people left behind by the evolution. So if you think hey get angry when they see a female fighter then Either you or me has to be the Don Quixote.
The Kurds want to show civility by sending their women to the infantry?

another 'prove'!!! of your 'Illyrian-Makedonian' theories,
Makedonians are proud for their women,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYwgGJ6-Lyo#t=28
the only Women who were a helmet, cause they defend the land, from the times of Amyntas and later
there were many Illyrian women who were queens and fighters, like teuta,
I wonder, are you a West? or not? (jean d arc etc) ?(you claim that West and Catholic is same in another post)
are you really an Illyrian? or not? (queen teuta etc)
cause in all history, women played a role when defending the land,
and if you are an autochthonos then you should knew it.
you have just prove, that you are not proud, or you are foreign to the history you claim.
even kallasha women were a kind of helmet
only in Islam women are consider second class humans, or another category, etc


I have heard imams from Sandzak who say that Serbian government has banned or closed archaeological sites for fear of the outsiders seen the truth. The truth is, as the imams claim, they are slavsized Illyrians. As you might know Albanians claim the same heritage. So if you continue demonizing Islam you might wake up, them wanted to join Kosovo. As for the language they will be allowed to keep the language they know. (This is not Albanian claim by the way. Its my personal claim).
The slogans; "Kosovo je Serbia" appearing as you saying in Czech Republic and Slovakia are not news for us. I was surprised though to see one in an Izraeli match. I have even seen one in Spain. There was not effort to remove it by the Izraelis. Were they Serbs living in Izrael or Izraeli I don't know.
I know there is a Slavic solidarity and that will continue, but regarding Kosovo they have no strength to change anything of its outcome. Slovaks have their own Hungarians and Checks have the Sudetenland. If Germans wake up and have no erection one morning, Slovaks and Checks knock at the Russian door.
I believe we will see more of them as desperation grows. Kosovo will get in NATO and Serbs will not dare to talk about attacking Kosovo, let alone doing anything.
Now, the bombing of Serbia by the west was among others the monetary debt you owned to them. They were worried they will never recover that money and they destroyed what they had given to you ,out of rage.
Now that famous Army you have enjoy all.
You keep that army to frighten Albanians or Croatians. Since with Greeks you are friends, so you are with Romanians we have to take notice that. So we have to keep some phone numbers. We have the number of Pentagon, Turkey and Germany I think.
Turkey's army alone is as big as Serbians multiplied by 15.

you said so much about history etc etc,
even that all others are wrong, and only you know,
but I see you do not live with history you claim, neither you are proud of it,

If you are an Illyrian, then you should honor queen Teuta,
and give your respects to these Kurdish women, who defend their land against ISIS mercenairies,
and if Makedonian werre Illryians and Alexander was Illyrian as you also claimed,
you should again know and honor the role of women when defending the land,

but you are probably a stranger, a foreign to the local culture,
not an autochthonos, you just prove it with your ideas.

I do not care what an imam say, priest are for religion, not for science,
BUT I WONDER WHAT THIS IMAM SAY ABOUT QUEEN TEUTA? a female warrior
WHAT QUEEN TEUTA WAS? CAN YOU ASK HIM?
AN ANGEL OR A DEVIL?


PS
I doupt Kurdish women in Kombane do it for money as IS salaries, from 200 E per month to 3000 E, and all the loot you can get.
I doupt they do it for Allah u Akbar, the glory of God,
search why they do it,

Garrick
26-10-14, 12:21
How do you know which religious influence is going up and which is going down amongst Albanians?

Newspapers and Internet every day write about that, for example:

Charity: Radical Islam Growing in Albania

http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/charity-radical-islam-growing-in-albania

Albania: growing Islamisation causing tension

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=20847

The Hidden Growth of Islamic Extremism in Kosovo

http://www.neweasterneurope.eu/interviews/1301-the-hidden-growth-of-islamic-extremism-in-kosovo


Do you want more?

...
Good news from Kobane:

YPG general (Kurdish Peoples Protection Units)

'The victory of Kobane is a victory of all Syria'

http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/57602

"The resistance shown by us, the Kurdish People’s Protection Units (YPG) and factions of the Free Syrian Army (FSA), is a guarantee for defeating ISIS’s terrorism in the region."

albanopolis
26-10-14, 13:01
Newspapers and Internet every day write about that, for example:

Charity: Radical Islam Growing in Albania

http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/charity-radical-islam-growing-in-albania

Albania: growing Islamisation causing tension

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=20847

The Hidden Growth of Islamic Extremism in Kosovo

http://www.neweasterneurope.eu/interviews/1301-the-hidden-growth-of-islamic-extremism-in-kosovo


Do you want more?

...
Good news from Kobane:

YPG general (Kurdish Peoples Protection Units)

'The victory of Kobane is a victory of all Syria'

http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/57602

"The resistance shown by us, the Kurdish People’s Protection Units (YPG) and factions of the Free Syrian Army (FSA), is a guarantee for defeating ISIS’s terrorism in the region."

Look! 20 years ago there were no churches or mosques in Albania. They were either destroyed by communists or turned in cultural centers. The west put pressure on us to allow religious freedom because we had no intention of opening them. Then mosques and churches were open with the Wests insistence.
There are radical elements of Islam in Albania. Some self radicalized some radicalized by others. Its a free world.
Radicalization is a price that should be paid in the name of freedom.
But Albanian population sees itself as part of Europe not Turkey. Westernization of Albania in terms of culture is amazing. So I want to calm you down that even there are few radicalized elements we are watching them and we know who are those guys. Albanians are travelling west to better themselves not east, not south.
So, even I understand your concern there is no ground to worry about. Things are largely under control1

Garrick
26-10-14, 16:20
I Since with Greeks you are friends, so you are with Romanians we have to take notice that. So we have to keep some phone numbers. We have the number of Pentagon, Turkey and Germany I think.
Turkey's army alone is as big as Serbians multiplied by 15.

Germany and France are very popular in Serbia these days, which is understandable as the country enters in EU. Serbian army already provides soldiers for EU missions, and in the future even more.

USA is another case, because 1999 was only 15 years ago, but Serbian army has specific cooperation. Serbia wants enters in EU and EU military missions, but Serbia doesn't want enter in NATO, but Americans know and understand it. Austria, Ireland, Finland, Sweden, Cyprus are members of EU but they are not in NATO, and Serbia is no exception.

Yes, you right, Serbia, and another countries (Christians and Atheists) in the Balkans the most feared of Turkey. Turkish army is very strong. According Global Fire Power this army is 8th ranking in the world by strength.
...

Problem is if Erdogan and Turkish authorities have aspirations to restore Ottoman Empire and Islamic rule. Many Erdogan's moves and speaks are in that direction, we do not know whether is for internal use or not, but Balkan Atheists and Christian nations are afraid.


Turkey's PM Erdogan: Territories of Balkan countries belong to Turkey

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/12/turkish-pm-erdogan-territories-of-balkan-countries-belong-to-turkey


“Albania is Turkey’s strategic ally in the Balkans,” Erdogan told.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/albania-and-turkey-eye-strategic-relationship

Erdogan: Turkish Soldiers will help Albanians liberate their lands

http://balkanstory.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/erdogan-turkish-soldiers-will-help-albanians-liberate-their-lands

Turkey under Erdogan: Lurching Toward Sharia Ottoman Empire

http://clashdaily.com/2013/11/turkey-erdogan-lurching-toward-sharia-new-ottoman-empire


...
One interesting article from Israel newspaper:

Foreign Affairs: Turkey’s elusive promised land and the war on Islamic State

http://www.jpost.com/International/Foreign-Affairs-Turkeys-elusive-promised-land-379684

"Turkish scholars now call the pair’s platform “pan-Islamism,” as opposed to the previously used “neo-Ottomanism.” One such scholar, Marmara University’s Behlul Ozkan, has studied some 300 articles Davutoglu penned as an academic before the Islamists’ rise to power, most of which have never been translated. His findings indicate that Davutoglu believes Turkey has a historic mission to revive and lead a Sunni triangle that would stretch from North Africa through the Balkans to Central Asia. In a sense, Islamic State’s vision of a caliphate has stolen Davutoglu’s thunder."

...
More than 500 years Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs etc. in the Balkans were under Ottoman empire, Islamic rule and Sharia law, in XIX century and Balkan wars we were freed finally and began to arrange our countries with 500 years behind the Western Europe. Ottoman Empire, Islamic rule and Sharia law never more in the Balkans.

...
Today free world defend himself in Kobane. I think we in Serbia and in greater part the Balkans can understand the Kurds, their efforts but also a sense of pride that they have. And things are very connected between Kurds and Balkans.

LeBrok
26-10-14, 21:39
Garrick, can you stop attacking Albanians for a moment?

Garrick
26-10-14, 22:13
Garrick, can you stop attacking Albanians for a moment?

Perhaps in an effort to give a satisfactory answers I crossed the line and if this is so I accept critique (I'm not attacking anyone, nor is it my style).

But everyone can see it all started with #160, where I did not even mention the Albanians, and where I quoted a Kurdish leader.

Believe me, I do not know why this had angered Albanians, link:

Kurdish official: ISIS must stop, otherwise go up in Bulgaria and Romania
http://news.newsdirectory1.com/kurdi...a-and-romania/ (http://news.newsdirectory1.com/kurdish-official-isis-must-stop-otherwise-go-up-in-bulgaria-and-romania/)

Gorgonzola
27-10-14, 01:16
Newspapers and Internet every day write about that, for example:

Charity: Radical Islam Growing in Albania

http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/charity-radical-islam-growing-in-albania

Albania: growing Islamisation causing tension

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=20847

The Hidden Growth of Islamic Extremism in Kosovo

http://www.neweasterneurope.eu/interviews/1301-the-hidden-growth-of-islamic-extremism-in-kosovo


Do you want more?


You only see what you want to see.
You only read what your country propagandates you.
In newspaper and internet sources i have read other things.

Pope in Albania to promote inter-religious harmony

Albania has managed to create a "government of national unity among Muslims, Orthodox and Catholics, with an interreligious council that has helped a lot and is balanced," he said in August, adding that his presence "will be a way of saying to everyone, 'See, we can all work together!'"

http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-pope-in-albania-to-promote-inter-religious-harmony-2014-9

Pope Francis praises human rights and religious freedom during Albania visit

In Tirana, Francis lauded the mutual respect and trust between Muslims, Catholics and Orthodox Christians in Albania as a "precious gift" and a powerful symbol in today's world."This is especially the case in these times where an authentic religious spirit is being perverted by extremist groups and where religious differences are being distorted and instrumentalised," said Francis.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/21/pope-francis-human-rights-religious-freedom-albania-tiranaorana

Muslims and Christians help rebuild a Catholic church in Albania

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-albania-visit-showcases-muslim-christian-ties-122400702.html

Do you want more?

Gorgonzola
27-10-14, 01:37
Perhaps in an effort to give a satisfactory answers I crossed the line and if this is so I accept critique (I'm not attacking anyone, nor is it my style).

But everyone can see it all started with #160, where I did not even mention the Albanians, and where I quoted a Kurdish leader.
Believe me, I do not know why this had angered Albanians, link:


I suppose you are talking about me since i was the one who replied. Well, i've already said the reason why i decided to answer your posts and there is no need for me to repeat it 3 times.You can read post #165 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30161-Free-and-independent-Kurdistan-is-coming-soon?p=442673&viewfull=1#post442673) and #178 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30161-Free-and-independent-Kurdistan-is-coming-soon?p=442775&viewfull=1#post442775) again if you want.
Nobody was angered, i replied as a normal person.

No it didn't start in #160, read the thread again. It started when someone mentioned the foreign politics of serbia and greece and on the other side you replied by mentioning the religion of the Albanians, which i can't find any relation.


Garrick, can you stop attacking Albanians for a moment?

The problem is that people like Garrick like to spread an anti-albanian propaganda as much as they can.
You can clearly see this as he has done alot of times now which is not normal.The thread "To Poles, Czechs,Slovaks" is a clear proof of this, and now the same thing here.
They don't know where to attack and they start talking about religion.

Garrick
27-10-14, 01:40
You only read what your country propagandates you.


It is mistake because sources are European: Catholic Charity, Independent Catholic News and Polish NEE.

By the way, in Serbia nobody reads these sources.

...
Back to Kurds:
Kurds 'repulse ISIL push' in Syria's Kobane http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/10/kurds-repulse-isil-push-syria-kobane-20141026192620718485.html

Garrick
27-10-14, 02:00
The problem is that people like Garrick like to spread an anti-albanian propaganda as much as they can.
You can clearly see this as he has done alot of times now which is not normal.The thread "To Poles, Czechs,Slovaks" is a clear proof of this, and now the same thing here.
They don't know where to attack and they start talking about religion.

Again mistake.

You can prohibit any criticism of Islam, but you make bigger problem.

On the contrary, I've written several times about the need for dialogue with Muslims.

Maybe the problem is because I openly talking about concepts as kafir or jihad, etc.

But openness has its advantages over the conversation with kid gloves, I do not fabricate, I always give sources and arguments, every Muslim if wants can have a dialogue with me, I love dialogue and I'm not against any religion nor against atheists.

Gorgonzola
27-10-14, 04:19
Again mistake.

You can prohibit any criticism of Islam, but you make bigger problem.

On the contrary, I've written several times about the need for dialogue with Muslims.

Maybe the problem is because I openly talking about concepts as kafir or jihad, etc.

But openness has its advantages over the conversation with kid gloves, I do not fabricate, I always give sources and arguments, every Muslim if wants can have a dialogue with me, I love dialogue and I'm not against any religion nor against atheists.

Its not my mistake here, its yours.
I was the first one who said that hates the jihadist, and also everyone who goes to fight for ISIS.
I wasn't against criticizing of islam, i've done that when talking with a muslim.You didn't understand what is the problem here.
The problem is that you try and to denigrate the figure of albanians in every occasion that you have, by making them look dangerous and a threat,which you have done in other threads too, because its in the benefit of serbs if Europe has animosity against Albanians.
You spread propaganda by doing personal attacks by going off topic in threads who talk about totally different things.

albanopolis
27-10-14, 05:36
Its not my mistake here, its yours.
I was the first one who said that hates the jihadist, and also everyone who goes to fight for ISIS.
I wasn't against criticizing of islam, i've done that when talking with a muslim.You didn't understand what is the problem here.
The problem is that you try and to denigrate the figure of albanians in every occasion that you have, by making them look dangerous and a threat,which you have done in other threads too, because its in the benefit of serbs if Europe has animosity against Albanians.
You spread propaganda by doing personal attacks by going off topic in threads who talk about totally different things.

He has convinced himself that Islam of Kurdistan is like the Christianity of the west. (Because of Serbian and Greek jealousy or fear from Turkey). One of the worst Islamic terrorist came from there (Al Kurdi). But Albanian Islam is dangerous according to these guys.
They are fretting out because Sandzak Muslims have risen and claim Illyrian ancestry which I believe is true,

Yetos
27-10-14, 17:32
it seems winter is coming,

and IS is pissed off with Kurds of Kombane,
so is calling back all the Jihadists and gives orders to the Chechens (Al Sishani) to take Kombane in the next 2 weeks

it seems like the women of Kombane manage to piss off so much the Jihadists,
and the city might pass in History as a significant battle,
after that, the winner takes all, and the looser stands alone
and Kombane will be a town symbol for the winner,

if Kurds win we might have collapse of Jihadists morale,
if Jihadists win the oposite,
but is going to be a battle full of 'martyres'.


in fact the news say that the city of Cizre has revolt against Turkish authorities, and a huge Turkish army is going there.
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/Milliyet-Tv//video-izle/Cizre-ye-askeri-sevkiyat-JEI8a0SHh1CK.html

Alan
27-10-14, 17:56
He has convinced himself that Islam of Kurdistan is like the Christianity of the west. (Because of Serbian and Greek jealousy or fear from Turkey). One of the worst Islamic terrorist came from there (Al Kurdi). But Albanian Islam is dangerous according to these guys.
They are fretting out because Sandzak Muslims have risen and claim Illyrian ancestry which I believe is true,


Al Kurdi or Al Kirdi is a extremely common surname in Arab countries. It could(and often does) mean that far back someone had distant Kurdish origin. But yet they are at least for a century integretated part of the Arab world.

Garrick
28-10-14, 20:46
Its not my mistake here, its yours.
I was the first one who said that hates the jihadist, and also everyone who goes to fight for ISIS.
I wasn't against criticizing of islam, i've done that when talking with a muslim.You didn't understand what is the problem here.
The problem is that you try and to denigrate the figure of albanians in every occasion that you have, by making them look dangerous and a threat,which you have done in other threads too, because its in the benefit of serbs if Europe has animosity against Albanians.
You spread propaganda by doing personal attacks by going off topic in threads who talk about totally different things.

Everyone can see what I wrote.

I did not give any incorrect information, and I gave a bunch of sources.

This is what reality is, I will always give what reality is, if someone does not like he or she can go toward trace of original news.

It is clear that I gave articles and web sites about Turkish President/ex Prime Minister Erdogan and neo-Ottoman/pan Islamic politics today's Turkey (in given articles write so), Erdogan speaks about Albanians as pillar of neo-Ottoman policy on the Balkans, I gave a lot of links, if someone wants I can give more.

And this is all related to the thread because Kurdish issue in present Turkey is key of problem but and solution when Kurds achieve national affirmation.

Garrick
28-10-14, 21:32
He has convinced himself that Islam of Kurdistan is like the Christianity of the west. (Because of Serbian and Greek jealousy or fear from Turkey). One of the worst Islamic terrorist came from there (Al Kurdi). But Albanian Islam is dangerous according to these guys.
They are fretting out because Sandzak Muslims have risen and claim Illyrian ancestry which I believe is true,

How can people interpret Erdogan's words that Turkish soldiers will liberate Albanian lands otherwise than Turkish soldiers will make Greater Albania. Everyone can read, I only gave source:

http://balkanstory.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/erdogan-turkish-soldiers-will-help-albanians-liberate-their-lands/

Ottoman empire for 500 years downgraded Balkan countries. Neo-Ottoman and Panislamist politics today's Turkish leadership talks about aspirations to return to the Balkans.

People in Serbia are desperate if these plans succeed. Probably is similar in Greece and Bulgaria.

Israeli newspaper:

"A new and “improved” Ottoman Empire, based more strictly on the Quran and Hadiths … reflecting the misogyny, Islamic Supremacy and anti-Semitism of Sharia … appears to be the kind Erdogan is imagining and determined to establish. "

But 500 years under Ottoman empire, Islamic rule and Sharia law is enough. Never more.

...
People in Serbia have sympathy for Kurds.

But I can speak only in my own name.

It is matter of justice that the Kurds achieve their desires, and I am confident that they will succeed.

...
About Bosnians as descendants of Illyrians I can open the new thread. Really I like that such thread opens someone from Bosnia, but I am still thinking, I have a lot of materials.

If Bosnians are descendants of Illyrians it means that Illyirians were carriers of I2a haplogroup, which in the Balkans is far the least represented among Geg Albanians.

Today Bosnians make three nations: Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats. Bosnian is geographical term, not ethnic. Dividing line is by religion: Bosniacs are Muslims, Serbs are Orthodox, Croats are Roman Catholics.

It is not correct what you call Bosniacs as Muslims because Muslims are people who have professed belief in Islam.

Only Serbian/Croat hard nationalists (but I don't know for Albanian) call Bosniacs as Muslims. No, they are Bosniacs (or Bosniaks).

(I'm Tito's school, for me Slovenes, Croats, Bosniacs and Montenegrins are brothers with Serbs, I'm for brotherhood and unity.)

Bosniacs are Muslims by faith but they have their nation.

albanopolis
28-10-14, 22:48
How can people interpret Erdogan's words that Turkish soldiers will liberate Albanian lands otherwise than Turkish soldiers will make Greater Albania. Everyone can read, I only gave source:

http://balkanstory.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/erdogan-turkish-soldiers-will-help-albanians-liberate-their-lands/

Ottoman empire for 500 years downgraded Balkan countries. Neo-Ottoman and Panislamist politics today's Turkish leadership talks about aspirations to return to the Balkans.

People in Serbia are desperate if these plans succeed. Probably is similar in Greece and Bulgaria.

Israeli newspaper:

"A new and “improved” Ottoman Empire, based more strictly on the Quran and Hadiths … reflecting the misogyny, Islamic Supremacy and anti-Semitism of Sharia … appears to be the kind Erdogan is imagining and determined to establish. "

But 500 years under Ottoman empire, Islamic rule and Sharia law is enough. Never more.

...
People in Serbia have sympathy for Kurds.

But I can speak only in my own name.

It is matter of justice that the Kurds achieve their desires, and I am confident that they will succeed.

...
About Bosnians as descendants of Illyrians I can open the new thread. Really I like that such thread opens someone from Bosnia, but I am still thinking, I have a lot of materials.

If Bosnians are descendants of Illyrians it means that Illyirians were carriers of I2a haplogroup, which in the Balkans is far the least represented among Geg Albanians.

Today Bosnians make three nations: Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats. Bosnian is geographical term, not ethnic. Dividing line is by religion: Bosniacs are Muslims, Serbs are Orthodox, Croats are Roman Catholics.

It is not correct what you call Bosniacs as Muslims because Muslims are people who have professed belief in Islam.

Only Serbian/Croat hard nationalists (but I don't know for Albanian) call Bosniacs as Muslims. No, they are Bosniacs (or Bosniaks).

(I'm Tito's school, for me Slovenes, Croats, Bosniacs and Montenegrins are brothers with Serbs, I'm for brotherhood and unity.)

Bosniacs are Muslims by faith but they have their nation.



Some Bosniaks say that they are of Illyrian stock ( Majority of them). They claim that they share with Slavs the language not the ethnicity. Its not Albanians who say that. If they are Illyrians its not going to make any difference for Albanians. Its like Italian and French. They share something but they are different.
Now if they are majority I2 that does not mean that all Illyrians were I2. So the haplogorups and ethnicity are not related. Southern Serbia its about 50% E-13 and J2 and Northern Serbia 90% I and R and still both sides call themselves Serbs. So haplogroups are not evenly spread through all the ethnicity.
Turkey has not promised to size Serbian lands and give it to Albania. You are making that up. No need to discuss that.
Personally i Support Kurdish independence in Iraq. Its the right thing to do, giving them what everybody has. But they are caught between big powers in the region. Without help they can't achieve that. This is my opinion but nothing is impossible. Where there is a will there is a way.

Yetos
28-10-14, 23:10
Some Bosniaks say that they are of Illyrian stock ( Majority of them). They claim that they share with Slavs the language not the ethnicity. Its not Albanians who say that. If they are Illyrians its not going to make any difference for Albanians. Its like Italian and French. They share something but they are different.
Now if they are majority I2 that does not mean that all Illyrians were I2. So the haplogorups and ethnicity are not related. Southern Serbia its about 50% E-13 and J2 and Northern Serbia 90% I and R and still both sides call themselves Serbs. So haplogroups are not evenly spread through all the ethnicity.
Turkey has not promised to size Serbian lands and give it to Albania. You are making that up. No need to discuss that.
Personally i Support Kurdish independence in Iraq. Its the right thing to do, giving them what everybody has. But they are caught between big powers in the region. Without help they can't achieve that. This is my opinion but nothing is impossible. Where there is a will there is a way.

tell that to Tzelempi imam

Gorgonzola
29-10-14, 01:16
How can people interpret Erdogan's words that Turkish soldiers will liberate Albanian lands otherwise than Turkish soldiers will make Greater Albania. Everyone can read, I only gave source:

http://balkanstory.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/erdogan-turkish-soldiers-will-help-albanians-liberate-their-lands/

Ottoman empire for 500 years downgraded Balkan countries. Neo-Ottoman and Panislamist politics today's Turkish leadership talks about aspirations to return to the Balkans.

People in Serbia are desperate if these plans succeed. Probably is similar in Greece and Bulgaria.

Israeli newspaper:

"A new and “improved” Ottoman Empire, based more strictly on the Quran and Hadiths … reflecting the misogyny, Islamic Supremacy and anti-Semitism of Sharia … appears to be the kind Erdogan is imagining and determined to establish. "

But 500 years under Ottoman empire, Islamic rule and Sharia law is enough. Never more.



Everyone can see what I wrote.

I did not give any incorrect information, and I gave a bunch of sources.

This is what reality is, I will always give what reality is, if someone does not like he or she can go toward trace of original news.

It is clear that I gave articles and web sites about Turkish President/ex Prime Minister Erdogan and neo-Ottoman/pan Islamic politics today's Turkey (in given articles write so), Erdogan speaks about Albanians as pillar of neo-Ottoman policy on the Balkans, I gave a lot of links, if someone wants I can give more.

And this is all related to the thread because Kurdish issue in present Turkey is key of problem but and solution when Kurds achieve national affirmation.

Erdogan can say what he wants, he might even say that Turkey is going to conquer the entire Europe, why should we believe everything he says.

The Albanians have suffered alot more than you think, and more than some other people during the ottoman period, meanwhile your people were learning your language in school the albanians were oppressed and had no school for centuries.

This was one of the methods of the assimilation against Albanians.

The first Albanian school was oppened in 1887
http://www.inyourpocket.com/albania/korca/Sightseeing/Museums/First-Albanian-School_35793v


I think i already gave an explanation about the religious coexistence of the Albanians.

That is how you perceieve reality that's not how reality is, because i posted here links about the contrary of what you are saying.

Albania today is collaborating against ISIS and against every other islamic organization.

Gorgonzola
29-10-14, 01:44
Since you are continuing with your ways, then there are things that i also have found troubling and worrying lately.

Some of the news, which also regard the war in Syria:


Serbia afraid from the serbs fighting in foreign conflicts, backs jail term.

Serbia's parliament approved on Friday jail terms of up to eight years for anyone found guilty of fighting in foreign wars, in an effort to dissuade citizens from joining ISIS and conflicts in Syria, Ukraine and elsewhere.The amendments to the criminal code may also be used to crack down on the lucrative business of mercenaries who have used their experience in the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s to fight for money in places such as Sierra Leone, Algeria and more recently in Libya.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-2788190/Serbia-backs-jail-terms-Serbs-fighting-foreign-conflicts.html


Crimea, Ukraine: Serbian Chetnik Militias Arrive to Aide Russia

Serbian paramilitaries join pro-Russian forces in Crimea

A bunch of Serbian war veterans identifying themselves as Chetniks have joined pro-Russian troops occupying Ukraine's Crimea region. Wearing military uniforms a small unit of about five people claiming to be members of the historic Serbian nationalist guerrilla force, were seen checking cars at a roadblocks in Crimea.They had comminted war crimes and genocides in the Yugoslav Wars.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crimea-crisis-serb-chetnik-militia-joins-pro-russian-patrols-1439654

Bearded men in camouflage uniforms and black fur hats and armed with knives, were checking traffic on Thursday along the busy road linking Crimea's regional capital of Simferopol and the naval port of Sevastopol. A black flag with a skull, the standard of Serbian nationalists, and a Serbian national flag fluttered in the wind alongside the Russian tricolor, bringing back images from the turbulent events of the 1990s in the Balkans.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/14/us-crimea-volunteers-idUSBREA2D0C020140314


The attrocities of the serb chetnicks in Ukraine

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ukraine-crisis-serb-chetniks-claim-killings-23-ukrainian-102648863.html#aHpSStZ

Garrick
29-10-14, 04:13
Let's concentrate on Kurds in this thread.

I must react because a member of forum called me directly, please.


Turkey has not promised to size Serbian lands and give it to Albania. You are making that up.

Albanopolis sorry but I have to repeat some things that do not turn out that I invented.

Erdogan: Turkish Soldiers will help Albanians liberate their lands
http://balkanstory.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/erdogan-turkish-soldiers-will-help-albanians-liberate-their-lands
Erdogan: 'Kosovo Is Turkey'
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/10/erdogan-kosovo-turkey.html
Albanian Turkish Alliance ("Albania is Turkey’s strategic ally in the Balkans", Erdogan)
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/albania-and-turkey-eye-strategic-relationship
Ottoman Empire Dreams: Turkish PM Erdogan claims Territories of Balkan countries belong to Turkey
http://pamelageller.com/2013/12/ottoman-empire-dreams-turkish-pm-erdogan-claims-territories-of-balkan-countries-belong-to-turkey.html/
Erdogan:
"mosques are our barracks, domes our helmets, minarets our bayonets. Muslims our soldiers. This holy army guards my religion."
...
News:

Turkey to build Balkans’ largest mosque in Tirana

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-to-build-balkans-largest-mosque-in-tirana.aspx?pageID=238&nid=73512&NewsCatID=351

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/images/news/201410/n_73512_1.jpg

...
To be clear, I really have nothing against grand mosques. Maybe Enver Hoxha broke some mosques and Tirana now missing a lot of mosques. Surely with such grandiose mosques architecture in Tirana will be more beautiful.

But what emerges from these (and many other texts which someone can find in Internet, as and in books and newspapers) is some Turkish plan for the Balkans, and possible Albanian role in this. Otherwise I do not know how else to interpret these texts but I would like I am wrong. Only real and very correct, I do not offend anyone.


Erdogan can say what he wants, he might even say that Turkey is going to conquer the entire Europe, why should we believe everything he says.


For entire Europe is harder case, but for Balkans it is possible because he has military power much stronger than all Balkan countries together. His politics is neo-Ottoman (and Israeli media talk about evolution that politics towards pan Islamic). Certainly among members some nations in the Balkans cause fear. Where is today the Turkish secular state founded by Ataturk?

And return to the Kurds. Even more can be better understood position of Kurds.

Gorgonzola
29-10-14, 05:41
Let's concentrate on Kurds in this thread.

Yes but what can someone do when the attacks are continuous!

........



News:

Turkey to build Balkans’ largest mosque in Tirana

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-to-build-balkans-largest-mosque-in-tirana.aspx?pageID=238&nid=73512&NewsCatID=351


This is the most useless thing you have posted here. Of course in Albania there is a lack of mosques, but also churches, since the communism period.

Albania is known to have different cultural and religious buldings.

If there is a project for a mosque, it is because two years ago in Tirana was build one of Europes biggest churches:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_of_Christ_Orthodox_Cathedral_of_Tiran a

http://www.ocmc.org/resources/view_article.aspx?ArticleId=817

But what has to do the built of the religious heritage with all this ?


Albanian Turkish Alliance ("Albania is Turkey’s strategic ally in the Balkans", Erdogan)
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/albania-and-turkey-eye-strategic-relationship

Maybe Erdogan meant that economically. Anyways:

Albania sends troops to help US lead coalition against terrorist state ISIS.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/09/26/mobilizing-the-world-up-to-62-nations-and-groups-have-joined-coalition-against-isis/



But what emerges from these (and many other texts which someone can find in Internet, as and in books and newspapers) is some Turkish plan for the Balkans, and possible Albanian role in this. Otherwise I do not know how else to interpret these texts but I would like I am wrong. Only real and very correct, I do not offend anyone.

Just what i said before, a mission to spread anti-albanian propaganda as much as one can.

Im sorry i didn't see any of the plans you were saying, i just see some journalists making some imaginary schenario, theories, and what if-s.

Maybe we see things differently.

And about your low comments for Albania, just know that they have always been in alliance with the west, unlike some other countries.

...........

There are some things that i have found exclusively disturbing lately since we all know there are some nationalists segments in the balkans who are dangerous.

Putin threatens To Support Serbia Over Kosovo issue.The threat of ''Greater Serbia''

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-serbia-putin-us-criticism-belgrade/26640165.html


Serbian Fighters Help ''Mother Russia'' in Crimea

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/serbian-fighters-head-to-crimea


The attrocities of the serb chetniks in Ukraine

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ukraine-crisis-serb-chetniks-claim-killings-23-ukrainian-102648863.html#aHpSStZ


''Angry'' serb huligans burn down Nato flag during Euro 2016 qualifying football match vs Albania.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-lynxnpea9e0uq-jpg-20141015-photo.html


What we can conclude by reading all of this, (and many other texts which someone can find in Internet, as and in books and newspapers) is that serbs are dangerous, clever and wanna play the double-game card.
It is just my opinion I'm not offending anyone of course. Otherwise I do not know how else to interpret these texts but I would like to be wrong.

albanopolis
29-10-14, 18:36
I must react because a member of forum called me directly, please.



Albanopolis sorry but I have to repeat some things that do not turn out that I invented.

Erdogan: Turkish Soldiers will help Albanians liberate their lands
http://balkanstory.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/erdogan-turkish-soldiers-will-help-albanians-liberate-their-lands
Erdogan: 'Kosovo Is Turkey'
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/10/erdogan-kosovo-turkey.html
Albanian Turkish Alliance ("Albania is Turkey’s strategic ally in the Balkans", Erdogan)
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/albania-and-turkey-eye-strategic-relationship
Ottoman Empire Dreams: Turkish PM Erdogan claims Territories of Balkan countries belong to Turkey
http://pamelageller.com/2013/12/ottoman-empire-dreams-turkish-pm-erdogan-claims-territories-of-balkan-countries-belong-to-turkey.html/
Erdogan:
"mosques are our barracks, domes our helmets, minarets our bayonets. Muslims our soldiers. This holy army guards my religion."
...
News:

Turkey to build Balkans’ largest mosque in Tirana

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-to-build-balkans-largest-mosque-in-tirana.aspx?pageID=238&nid=73512&NewsCatID=351

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/images/news/201410/n_73512_1.jpg

...
To be clear, I really have nothing against grand mosques. Maybe Enver Hoxha broke some mosques and Tirana now missing a lot of mosques. Surely with such grandiose mosques architecture in Tirana will be more beautiful.

But what emerges from these (and many other texts which someone can find in Internet, as and in books and newspapers) is some Turkish plan for the Balkans, and possible Albanian role in this. Otherwise I do not know how else to interpret these texts but I would like I am wrong. Only real and very correct, I do not offend anyone.



For entire Europe is harder case, but for Balkans it is possible because he has military power much stronger than all Balkan countries together. His politics is neo-Ottoman (and Israeli media talk about evolution that politics towards pan Islamic). Certainly among members some nations in the Balkans cause fear. Where is today the Turkish secular state founded by Ataturk?

And return to the Kurds. Even more can be better understood position of Kurds.


Erdogan is a smart politician. Otherwise he would not stay that long in power. He has not made promises to take others land for Albanians. The papers are making up stories. Suppose he made such a promise. Would you believe it? Will Turkish soldiers die to make a big Albania? Don't be comical now!
As for the mosque I hope he builds it. They have taken from us for 500 yrs. If he builds it would be the first time they give. The mosques too are gods houses and I invite you to visit it.

Yetos
29-10-14, 21:56
Yes but what can someone do when the attacks are continuous!

........




And about your low comments for Albania, just know that they have always been in alliance with the west, unlike some other countries.

...........


are you kidding us?

the biggest monsk, like Skender Brucaj said more than 5000 people in and how many outside, there is not such a monsk in Turkey, and just because you do not have monsk due to communism before 30 years!!! :useless:
so Turkey is paying you to make bigger monsk than she has!!!!!!!!! not any Arab or Islamic spiritual center, Turkey.

smells West Turkey, Besides you always dream the return of Ottomans to take the fortune and genocide the Greeks from 1500 and after

like the Сејдула Алили Seidula Alili !!!! Famous Albanian warrior whos body found among IS dead?, one of the richest Albanians whose banking accounts went to Institute for Albanian spiritual heritage?

sorry I am getting out of my clothes sometimes,

Garrick
29-10-14, 23:29
What we can conclude by reading all of this, (and many other texts which someone can find in Internet, as and in books and newspapers) is that serbs are dangerous


LeBrok, sorry, but I must answer.
...

Serbs are very dangerous? Orobpa must be Serbian plan, hm?

http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1397301/isis-islamic-state.png?w=720&h=437&l=50&t=40

Maybe and Andalus? Or any more.

...
By the way, in Serbia today (ultra) left sector is almost nonexistent. After the defeat of Yugoslav communists this sector has disappeared.

Right sector is alive but it is very heterogeneous and disparate.

Parties and organizations of right sector suffered defeats in the elections, today they have no representatives in Serbian parliament.

Today practically 100% of parliamentary parties and their members are for joining Serbia to EU.

In right sector there are lot of streams, I will list three but it is roughly, in practice much more.

1 stream. This parties and organizations want Serbia to be neutral, like Switzerland, or Norway, or something new.

2 stream. This parties and organizations want Serbia to be part of Eurasian union, they tend pro Russian option.

3 stream. This parties and organizations are similar (ultra) right comrades in the Europe, they have ultra right characteristics, Skinheads etc.

Generally these streams are on opposite sides, but on some issues they can agree.

Someone can find everything in the Serbian right sector, but it is weak and fragmented.

There are some elements of past, from the Second World War, when of some members of the right were against Nazis and others were collaborators, for example, but it is only an echo of long bygone time.

Right sector in Serbia today is much weaker than in most European countries, "the right hand" cannot takes one Serbian village (in the election), no worries, harmless.

Yes, you right that individuals from Serbia go to the various hot spots. For example, in Ukraine some Serbian fighters are on both sides, there is everything: money, adventure, ideology, etc. Their number is small. Some individuals go to Africa. In Serbia with the exception of Kosovo live about 3.7% Muslims, some of them go to ISIS. You can find individuals from Serbia in various hot places, but in small numbers, nothing spectacular.

But in Serbia will be severely punished they who go to the foreign battlefield.

...
Many believe that Nazism and Communism were the danger of the twentieth century. Today is 21th century and dangers are other.

Today there are opinions that Kurds are the front line of defense of the free world.

Otherwise southern Europe is close, and then on the front line are Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, maybe Romanians, even Hungarians, etc. It is possible, we will see development of situation.

Gorgonzola
30-10-14, 01:58
are you kidding us?

the biggest monsk, like Skender Brucaj said more than 5000 people in and how many outside, there is not such a monsk in Turkey, and just because you do not have monsk due to communism before 30 years!!! :useless:
so Turkey is paying you to make bigger monsk than she has!!!!!!!!! not any Arab or Islamic spiritual center, Turkey.

smells West Turkey, Besides you always dream the return of Ottomans to take the fortune and genocide the Greeks from 1500 and after

like the Сејдула Алили Seidula Alili !!!! Famous Albanian warrior whos body found among IS dead?, one of the richest Albanians whose banking accounts went to Institute for Albanian spiritual heritage?

sorry I am getting out of my clothes sometimes,

No I am not kidding anyone, I already spoke about the foreign politics of the Albanians, don't need to repeat the same things again because it gets boring.

Nobody would like the return of the Ottomans because it would be a disgrace for the peace that is trying to be achieved in the Balkans.

These stories you tell here are very enterteining.I see that in Greece they have a particular point of view for the albanians.

albanopolis
30-10-14, 16:20
are you kidding us?

the biggest monsk, like Skender Brucaj said more than 5000 people in and how many outside, there is not such a monsk in Turkey, and just because you do not have monsk due to communism before 30 years!!! :useless:
so Turkey is paying you to make bigger monsk than she has!!!!!!!!! not any Arab or Islamic spiritual center, Turkey.

smells West Turkey, Besides you always dream the return of Ottomans to take the fortune and genocide the Greeks from 1500 and after

like the Сејдула Алили Seidula Alili !!!! Famous Albanian warrior whos body found among IS dead?, one of the richest Albanians whose banking accounts went to Institute for Albanian spiritual heritage?

sorry I am getting out of my clothes sometimes,

To much Greek government indoctrination.
Church intolerance too.
Islam is a peaceful religion of 25% of earths population. It does have its shortcomings but so do other religions.
Show some respect for other cultures and religions. USA the most powerful nation on earth, christian and has embraced many cultures and religions. The plurality of cultures enriches the world.
I am afraid that Greek government propaganda has convinced everyone in Greece, that without Greece world will go dark.
Calm down, in today's world Greece is a big village without a world salvation mission and regional importance.
Open up your minds and see Turkey realistically. 25 000 Turks a year get their PhD and masters from american universities. Imagine in other universities of Europe. As many bachelor educated people you have they have graduates. Greece is not mach for Turkey. Albanians are your competitors. They are becoming competitive in the World economy. So, don't get ought in that mosque bigotry learn how to respect!

Yetos
30-10-14, 20:36
To much Greek government indoctrination.
Church intolerance too.
Islam is a peaceful religion of 25% of earths population. It does have its shortcomings but so do other religions.
Show some respect for other cultures and religions. USA the most powerful nation on earth, christian and has embraced many cultures and religions. The plurality of cultures enriches the world.
I am afraid that Greek government propaganda has convinced everyone in Greece, that without Greece world will go dark.
Calm down, in today's world Greece is a big village without a world salvation mission and regional importance.
Open up your minds and see Turkey realistically. 25 000 Turks a year get their PhD and masters from american universities. Imagine in other universities of Europe. As many bachelor educated people you have they have graduates. Greece is not mach for Turkey. Albanians are your competitors. They are becoming competitive in the World economy. So, don't get ought in that mosque bigotry learn how to respect!

because I have my eyes open, I know what is going on in my country, BAlkans, middle East, the world
you can not blind me, or us, no matter the quantity of dust you spread to our eyes,
you choose your path, I choose my own, nothing more than mercenairies, without dignity, as before 1912

albanopolis
30-10-14, 22:25
because I have my eyes open, I know what is going on in my country, BAlkans, middle East, the world
you can not blind me, or us, no matter the quantity of dust you spread to our eyes,
you choose your path, I choose my own, nothing more than mercenairies, without dignity, as before 1912

I have to teach you Greek history that your government has denied to you!
7 years after Greek revolution inspired and supported by England and Germany, fought by orthodox Albanians, there was another counter revolution in Greece to join Turkey again. Many Greeks being educated were in better position in the Ottoman Empire. Most of the Empires trade was done by Greeks, so Greek folks enjoyed a high level of prosperity than other ethnicity's. Revolution cut those ties and Greeks lost trade privileges which let to a very nasty counterrevolution, put down again by Brits and Germans. Now you try to tell me of lost dignity under Turks. Blood was shed to stay together. Not to separate. Now I know you are not to blame because you are taught a fabricated history, but let me tell you: Greeks and Turks are brothers. The poison of the relations was put by Northern countries to destroy a developing empire. So, if you want to know the real history of Greece send me the questions and I will try to explain you.
The one that Greek government is teaching you is poisoned with hate for your closes brothers Turks.
Can you tell the physical difference between a Turk and a Greek.? Same customs too!

Gorgonzola
30-10-14, 23:23
because I have my eyes open, I know what is going on in my country, BAlkans, middle East, the world
you can not blind me, or us, no matter the quantity of dust you spread to our eyes,
you choose your path, I choose my own, nothing more than mercenairies, without dignity, as before 1912

You can't fool people with discussions like this.We know who the greeks are and what they have done.
They are a country who doesn't have respect for the minority groups, they are racists.
In the 19 century they were made to believe that everyone,who was christian, and lived in greece was actually a "helen".(crazy right?)
They have always had chauvinistic intentions towards their neighbours and still work secretly to fullfill their evil plans.
Always think that they are the center of the world and they brought light to the universe.
The ones without any Dignity are YOU.

Yetos
30-10-14, 23:34
I have to teach you Greek history that your government has denied to you!
7 years after Greek revolution inspired and supported by England and Germany, fought by orthodox Albanians, there was another counter revolution in Greece to join Turkey again. Many Greeks being educated were in better position in the Ottoman Empire. Most of the Empires trade was done by Greeks, so Greek folks enjoyed a high level of prosperity than other ethnicity's. Revolution cut those ties and Greeks lost trade privileges which let to a very nasty counterrevolution, put down again by Brits and Germans. Now you try to tell me of lost dignity under Turks. Blood was shed to stay together. Not to separate. Now I know you are not to blame because you are taught a fabricated history, but let me tell you: Greeks and Turks are brothers. The poison of the relations was put by Northern countries to destroy a developing empire. So, if you want to know the real history of Greece send me the questions and I will try to explain you.
The one that Greek government is teaching you is poisoned with hate for your closes brothers Turks.
Can you tell the physical difference between a Turk and a Greek.? Same customs too!


Crup. I know my village, my area, and who were klepths in my area, No arbanites, no albanians here, only Turk officer and Turk-Alban soldiers,


the ones who should be thankfull it is you Albanians, cause if not Greece revolt 2-3 times against Ottomans, and finally succed, you would be ottomans now, and proud for Turkish Identity, and origin.
the last who STILL served OTTOMANS IN BALKANS, AND THE LAST WHO DID NOT EVEN REVOLT TO TURKS, AT 1912.

YO isn't time to change your name to Turkopolis?

Yetos
30-10-14, 23:37
You can't fool people with discussions like this.We know who the greeks are and what they have done.
They are a country who doesn't have respect for the minority groups, they are racists.
In the 19 century they were made to believe that everyone,who was christian, and lived in greece was actually a "helen".(crazy right?)
They have always had chauvinistic intentions towards their neighbours and still work secretly to fullfill their evil plans.
Always think that they are the center of the world and they brought light to the universe.
The ones without any Dignity are YOU.


MY COUNTRY HAS TRiED TO LIBERATE FROM 1770's and ORLOV's REVOLT, and you came and slain both Greeks and Arbanites and steal their fortunes, as Srvant of Sultans High Gate, read history better, the father of Kolokotroni treat you well.
even in 1906 in my land you were 70% of Ottomans army.
perhaps you like Ottomans to come back, to give you the priviledges you had,

Gorgonzola
30-10-14, 23:58
MY COUNTRY HAS TRiED TO LIBERATE FROM 1770's and ORLOV's REVOLT, and you came and slain both Greeks and Arbanites and steal their fortunes, as Srvant of Sultans High Gate, read history better, the father of Kolokotroni treat you well.
even in 1906 in my land you were 70% of Ottomans army.
perhaps you like Ottomans to come back, to give you the priviledges you had,


the ones who should be thankfull it is you Albanians, cause if not Greece revolt 2-3 times against Ottomans, and finally succed, you would be ottomans now, and proud for Turkish Identity, and origin.
the last who STILL served OTTOMANS IN BALKANS, AND THE LAST WHO DID NOT EVEN REVOLT TO TURKS, AT 1912.


Greeks were afraid to fight and revolt that's why they country was liberated by someone else, ALBANIANS and yet you did everything to change their identity, assimilate them, prohibit them to talk their language at home.
You should be thankful and show respect to the ones who gave you freedom, otherwise you would be today a province of Turkey.

You like to talk alot but the albanians were more opressed than you think under the turks.Meanwhile your people were learning your language in school the albanians had no school for centuries.
This left the albanians in the darkness for a great period and was done by the turks in collaboration with the greeks, making it easier for you to fullfill your irredentist plans.
This was also one of the methods of the assimilation against Albanians.
The first Albanian school was oppened in 1887 :
http://www.inyourpocket.com/albania/...-School_35793v (http://www.inyourpocket.com/albania/korca/Sightseeing/Museums/First-Albanian-School_35793v)


Your evil country made ethnic cleasning killed and evacuated innocent people in chameria (south epirus) just because they refused to become "helens".
Then they stole they fortune and their properties and gave it to the christian anatolians who came in greece after the population exchange with the turks.
And yet you are taught to be the "victims".

The thing is that you don't know who you are, because greeks today have a mixed origin and population

Yetos
31-10-14, 00:27
Greeks were afraid to fight and revolt that's why they country was liberated by someone else, ALBANIANS and yet you did everything to change their identity, assimilate them, prohibit them to talk their language at home.
You should be thankful and show respect to the ones who gave you freedom, otherwise you would be today a province of Turkey.

You like to talk alot but the albanians were more opressed than you think under the turks.Meanwhile your people were learning your language in school the albanians had no school for centuries.
This left the albanians in the darkness for a great period and was done by the turks in collaboration with the greeks, making it easier for you to fullfill your irredentist plans.
This was also one of the methods of the assimilation against Albanians.
The first Albanian school was oppened in 1887 :
http://www.inyourpocket.com/albania/...-School_35793v (http://www.inyourpocket.com/albania/korca/Sightseeing/Museums/First-Albanian-School_35793v)


Your evil country made ethnic cleasning killed and evacuated innocent people in chameria (south epirus) just because they refused to become "helens".
Then they stole they fortune and their properties and gave it to the christian anatolians who came in greece after the population exchange with the turks.
And yet you are taught to be the "victims".

The thing is that you don't know who you are, because greeks today have a mixed origin and population

Chammerians The NAZI Allies, who murdered the Paramythia people?
you are funny, and away from history,

Ok Le Brok, I stop, but I can't resist hearing or reading crups, those who serve the Ottomans, now speak about liberty, makes me sick.

albanopolis
31-10-14, 00:39
Crup. I know my village, my area, and who were klepths in my area, No arbanites, no albanians here, only Turk officer and Turk-Alban soldiers,


the ones who should be thankfull it is you Albanians, cause if not Greece revolt 2-3 times against Ottomans, and finally succed, you would be ottomans now, and proud for Turkish Identity, and origin.
the last who STILL served OTTOMANS IN BALKANS, AND THE LAST WHO DID NOT EVEN REVOLT TO TURKS, AT 1912.

YO isn't time to change your name to Turkopolis?

Fantasies! Read the real history! Greek uprising was to join Turkey not separate!?
Yes we were good friends with Turks and still are! But after we divorced never tried to join them again the way you did. But you were right half of Turkey is Muslim Greeks, so the unification of Greece and Turkey was a natural thing! But the English had another plan!!!
We have to thank the Arvanites for their guts! You have to thank them a lot more!

Gorgonzola
31-10-14, 00:44
Chammerians The NAZI Allies, who murdered the Paramythia people?
you are funny, and away from history,

Ok Le Brok, I stop, but I can't resist hearing or reading crups, those who serve the Ottomans, now speak about liberty, makes me sick.

Of course that's what they're going to say in Greece, how else are you going to be justified for the horrible crimes you did? Many greek historians today accept that chams were innocent.
What can I expect from someone who was told that everything that was christian in the balkans was "greek".Still today you are claiming lands from other countries and treating the minorities like sh**.
The only disgusting thing here is that the "criminals" actually act like the "angels".

Garrick
31-10-14, 01:05
Erdogan is a smart politician. Otherwise he would not stay that long in power. He has not made promises to take others land for Albanians. The papers are making up stories. Suppose he made such a promise. Would you believe it? Will Turkish soldiers die to make a big Albania? Don't be comical now!


You like Erdogan, he is very popular in Kosovo and Western Macedonia, maybe in Albania too, yes he must be very smart, European, Israeli and Arab media increasingly call him the Sultan, for example:

The Next Sultan

http://one-europe.info/the-next-sultan

"Turkey will never be the same after the 10th of August of 2014.

Tayyip Erdoğan will do everything to have the executive powers in his hands and then nobody will be able to stop him.

Who knows if he is not planning to be the new padişah (sultan) of a Turkish Empire."


British media:

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21612237-recep-tayyip-erdogans-plans-presidency-next-sultan


http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/379569/economist-cover.jpg

He enters in the largest presidential palace in the world, his palace has 1000 rooms, 2.6 time more than sultans Topkapi palace:

http://www.balkaneu.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/yeni-basbakanlik-3-565x295.jpg

White Serai (palace)

http://www.balkaneu.com/erdogan-inaugurates-presidential-palace/

"he is trying to disown the past of Turkey and builds luxury buildings similar to those of the Ottoman Empire. The opposition newspaper Sözcü says that “the new presidential palace there will have 1000 rooms and offices, while at the Topkapi Palace there were 380 rooms”."

http://www.gulf-times.com/NewsImages//2014/10/29/907b9e88-9ecc-4fc4-b18a-12845bef3fe1.jpg


...
I impart what media, analists, books etc. write. And situation become very compex. I'm very grateful to the Kurds in the given links, in their messages are clean, clear an life situations directly from the field.

Gorgonzola
31-10-14, 01:19
You like Erdogan, he is very popular in Kosovo and Western Macedonia, maybe in Albania too, yes he must be very smart, European, Israeli and Arab media increasingly call him the Sultan, for example:


Let's not get ahead of our selfs now, you can't know who the albanians like.For example I don't like Erdogan at all, or the way he does govern his country.

I think he has created a centered politic and is trying to create a dictatorship.

The ones i admire the most is Angela Merkel, the Italian PM Matteo Renzi and Obama.

Garrick
31-10-14, 02:01
Let's not get ahead of our selfs now, you can't know who the albanians like.For example I don't like Erdogan at all, or the way he does govern his country.


For example you can watch clip when Erdogan visited Kosovo, people love him (and it cannot be hidden):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFXjAhUD5D0

Garrick
31-10-14, 02:15
Gorgonzola, I must twice because system receives only one clip.

In front of an audience in Prizren, Erdogan said

Kosovo is Turkey

and received applause.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WsermbsyRo

Gorgonzola
31-10-14, 03:19
For example you can watch clip when Erdogan visited Kosovo, people love him (and it cannot be hidden):



Those people there were mostly his followers and fans.The receveing was normal and formal.You can't expect people to boo him or attack him don't you?
Plus its normal that someone likes him since he has that position he has, he must be skilled.
I just am not a big fan of his like i said and prefer other leaders.Most of the people i know also have my opinion.

Gorgonzola
31-10-14, 03:39
If we want to talk about a "warm" welcome, we can talk about the one done by Serbia to Russian president Putin. Really impressive (and it cannot be hidden):


Putin in Serbia: the EU candidate country welcomes ''our president''

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/serbia/11166408/Putin-in-Serbia-the-EU-candidate-country-welcomes-our-president.html


Serbia gives Putin imperial welcome

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/serbia-gives-putin-imperial-welcome-309269


Putin's Visit to Serbia Strikes on European Leaders' Nerves

http://en.ria.ru/authors/20141016/194170842/Putins-Visit-to-Serbia-Strikes-on-European-Leaders-Nerves.html




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KyiE_NGsrc

Garrick
01-11-14, 04:38
If we want to talk about a "warm" welcome, we can talk about the one done by Serbia to Russian president Putin. Really impressive (and it cannot be hidden):


Putin in Serbia: the EU candidate country welcomes ''our president''

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/serbia/11166408/Putin-in-Serbia-the-EU-candidate-country-welcomes-our-president.html


Serbia gives Putin imperial welcome

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/serbia-gives-putin-imperial-welcome-309269


Putin's Visit to Serbia Strikes on European Leaders' Nerves

http://en.ria.ru/authors/20141016/194170842/Putins-Visit-to-Serbia-Strikes-on-European-Leaders-Nerves.html




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KyiE_NGsrc

It is not easy for you, relationships among Slavs are very complex. Yes, Hey Slavs is very good anthem, and Tito tried brotherhood and unity of Southern Slavs.

Serbs are probably European nation has suffered heavily the most (relative to population) in the twentieth century, only in two world wars Serbs had three million victims (from Austrians, Germans, and collaborating Balkan nations). Yet today in Serbia you'll find a few Serbs who foster hatred towards Germans and Austrians, on the contrary, they are popular these days in Serbia.

Slavs are different story and you will never understand. These years, Serbs were mostly disappointed by Polish government, they couldn't believe that Polish government recognized Kosovo. And maybe in government of Czech Republic. For South Slavs people knew that governments are weak and under strong foreign impact.

Serbs are old European nation and huge number of Serbs want in European union. Europe's relationships with Serbia are relationships toward itself.

Serbia as Greece, Bulgaria etc. was 500 years under Ottoman Empire, Islamic rule and Sharia law, Serbs as Greeks, Bulgarians etc. were defending Europe from Islamic conquers, and centuries were allied with Austrians, Hungarians and others. And again, when some forces drawn Oropba and Andalus in Europe, Serbs will be on the parapet of the defense of Europe.

At Serbs there is pride that others find hard to understand. Serbs in Middle Ages, before the Ottomans, had developed country, the nobility, and people were unusually free for that time. So today, Serbs are naturally free and critical, and not courted as lackeys stronger from themselves.

So for Russians, people in Serbia are very critical. One of plus side is that Russians, as Chinese, Indians etc., have not recognized Kosovo. But there are minus sides, too.

Yes, parade was beautiful, and the reason is adorable, 70 years of liberation of Belgrade by Yugoslav People army and Soviet Red army. But behind scene is another story. Serbia have large import from Russia, but the country, once medium developed, after bombing and sanctions impoverished, and debts to the Russians is growing. Only bigger export from Serbia to Russia can reduce deficit and debts, but entering in Russian market is not easy for Serbian firms.

Serbia is quite impoverished, and in need of investment, the government is doing everything to attract investment from various parts of the world. Inconvenient when it comes to strong and powerful country, always intertwined business and politics, and some conditions. But it is reality.

I've already said, relationships between Slavs are very complex. Serbia can want good relationships with all Slavs but neutrality is difficult to achieve when there are opposed parties.

Personally I do not know Russian, and I do not read Russian websites, I little know the circumstances there. Perhaps the problems are different, and Balkans is very specific, probably if we think about Russia and beyond, probably Caucasus has most similarities with the Balkans. Balkans generally has a lot of problems, economic situation is difficult, Islamic state is close, and EU due to their circumstances, will not quickly accept Serbia and Montenegro, we will see further development.

Gorgonzola
01-11-14, 06:53
It is not easy for you, relationships among Slavs are very complex. Yes, Hey Slavs is very good anthem, and Tito tried brotherhood and unity of Southern Slavs.

Serbs are probably European nation has suffered heavily the most (relative to population) in the twentieth century, only in two world wars Serbs had three million victims (from Austrians, Germans, and collaborating Balkan nations). Yet today in Serbia you'll find a few Serbs who foster hatred towards Germans and Austrians, on the contrary, they are popular these days in Serbia.

Slavs are different story and you will never understand. These years, Serbs were mostly disappointed by Polish government, they couldn't believe that Polish government recognized Kosovo. And maybe in government of Czech Republic. For South Slavs people knew that governments are weak and under strong foreign impact.

If i won't understand the story of the slavs, The same way you will never understand the story of the Albanians.
I just thought the parade was impressive since we were talking about "warm welcomes".
Serbia knows what's best to do for herself.



Serbia as Greece, Bulgaria etc. was 500 years under Ottoman Empire, Islamic rule and Sharia law, Serbs as Greeks, Bulgarians etc. were defending Europe from Islamic conquers, and centuries were allied with Austrians, Hungarians and others. And again, when some forces drawn Oropba and Andalus in Europe, Serbs will be on the parapet of the defense of Europe.

Yes and the same thing unfortunately happened to the Albanians,a long turkish dominance, even though were one of the first people who opposed the Ottomans.
The more than 25-years of fights of Skanderbeg and his warriors are still very popular and well known not only in Europe but to all the world.At the time most of the balkan countries had fallen The albanians were fighting and had the alliance and assistence of Rome, Neaples but also maintained tight contacts with the Hungarians.
And today still they were among the first Nato members to send help against the fight against ISIS.

albanopolis
01-11-14, 09:56
It is not easy for you, relationships among Slavs are very complex. Yes, Hey Slavs is very good anthem, and Tito tried brotherhood and unity of Southern Slavs.

Serbs are probably European nation has suffered heavily the most (relative to population) in the twentieth century, only in two world wars Serbs had three million victims (from Austrians, Germans, and collaborating Balkan nations). Yet today in Serbia you'll find a few Serbs who foster hatred towards Germans and Austrians, on the contrary, they are popular these days in Serbia.

Slavs are different story and you will never understand. These years, Serbs were mostly disappointed by Polish government, they couldn't believe that Polish government recognized Kosovo. And maybe in government of Czech Republic. For South Slavs people knew that governments are weak and under strong foreign impact.

Serbs are old European nation and huge number of Serbs want in European union. Europe's relationships with Serbia are relationships toward itself.
I don't see Serbs by themselves as particularly dangerous in Europe.
As an amator annalist I am, I don't see particularly any strength Serbs have compared to other Balkan people.
But when you think that Serbs are really the extension of Russia in Europe that make Serbs a hell more dangerous than ISIS.
ISIS is a survivalist organisation without resources and allies. Serbia has both resources and allies. Knowing dangerous policies of Russia in Europe then weakening Serbia becomes an imperative for European politicians. If Russia ever becomes a democratic state things might change, but they way they are, they look bad.
Empowering Albanians would be a stone in European security wall, since Greece and Serbia both lean heavily to Russia.
Serbia I don't think they can become a democratic state at this stage.
I have heard that Serbian government teaches the population of Serbia that they are racially superior to Albanians and they are the chosen people of the Balkans. Nothing wrong with that but it reminds me Germans.
Lets be frank! As long as you guys sleep with the same bed with Russia we must take note for our security!

Serbia as Greece, Bulgaria etc. was 500 years under Ottoman Empire, Islamic rule and Sharia law, Serbs as Greeks, Bulgarians etc. were defending Europe from Islamic conquers, and centuries were allied with Austrians, Hungarians and others. And again, when some forces drawn Oropba and Andalus in Europe, Serbs will be on the parapet of the defense of Europe.

At Serbs there is pride that others find hard to understand. Serbs in Middle Ages, before the Ottomans, had developed country, the nobility, and people were unusually free for that time. So today, Serbs are naturally free and critical, and not courted as lackeys stronger from themselves.

So for Russians, people in Serbia are very critical. One of plus side is that Russians, as Chinese, Indians etc., have not recognized Kosovo. But there are minus sides, too.

Yes, parade was beautiful, and the reason is adorable, 70 years of liberation of Belgrade by Yugoslav People army and Soviet Red army. But behind scene is another story. Serbia have large import from Russia, but the country, once medium developed, after bombing and sanctions impoverished, and debts to the Russians is growing. Only bigger export from Serbia to Russia can reduce deficit and debts, but entering in Russian market is not easy for Serbian firms.

Serbia is quite impoverished, and in need of investment, the government is doing everything to attract investment from various parts of the world. Inconvenient when it comes to strong and powerful country, always intertwined business and politics, and some conditions. But it is reality.

I've already said, relationships between Slavs are very complex. Serbia can want good relationships with all Slavs but neutrality is difficult to achieve when there are opposed parties.

Personally I do not know Russian, and I do not read Russian websites, I little know the circumstances there. Perhaps the problems are different, and Balkans is very specific, probably if we think about Russia and beyond, probably Caucasus has most similarities with the Balkans. Balkans generally has a lot of problems, economic situation is difficult, Islamic state is close, and EU due to their circumstances, will not quickly accept Serbia and Montenegro, we will see further development.

I don't see Serbs by themselves as particularly dangerous in Europe.
As an amator annalist I am, I don't see particularly any strength Serbs have compared to other Balkan people.
But when you think that Serbs are really the extension of Russia in Europe that make Serbs a hell more dangerous than ISIS.
ISIS is a survivalist organisation without resources and allies. Serbia has both resources and allies. Knowing dangerous policies of Russia in Europe then weakening Serbia becomes an imperative for European politicians. If Russia ever becomes a democratic state things might change, but they way they are, they look bad.
Empowering Albanians would be a stone in European security wall, since Greece and Serbia both lean heavily to Russia.
Serbia I don't think they can become a democratic state at this stage.
I have heard that Serbian government teaches the population of Serbia that they are racially superior to Albanians and they are the chosen people of the Balkans. Nothing wrong with that but it reminds me Germans.
Lets be frank! As long as you guys sleep with the same bed with Russia we must take note for our security!

Garrick
01-11-14, 12:06
If i won't understand the story of the slavs, The same way you will never understand the story of the Albanians.
I just thought the parade was impressive since we were talking about "warm welcomes".
Serbia knows what's best to do for herself.

Yes and the same thing unfortunately happened to the Albanians,a long turkish dominance, even though were one of the first people who opposed the Ottomans.
The more than 25-years of fights of Skanderbeg and his warriors are still very popular and well known not only in Europe but to all the world.At the time most of the balkan countries had fallen The albanians were fighting and had the alliance and assistence of Rome, Neaples but also maintained tight contacts with the Hungarians.
And today still they were among the first Nato members to send help against the fight against ISIS.


I don't see Serbs by themselves as particularly dangerous in Europe.
As an amator annalist I am, I don't see particularly any strength Serbs have compared to other Balkan people.
But when you think that Serbs are really the extension of Russia in Europe that make Serbs a hell more dangerous than ISIS.
ISIS is a survivalist organisation without resources and allies. Serbia has both resources and allies. Knowing dangerous policies of Russia in Europe then weakening Serbia becomes an imperative for European politicians. If Russia ever becomes a democratic state things might change, but they way they are, they look bad.
Empowering Albanians would be a stone in European security wall, since Greece and Serbia both lean heavily to Russia.
Serbia I don't think they can become a democratic state at this stage.
I have heard that Serbian government teaches the population of Serbia that they are racially superior to Albanians and they are the chosen people of the Balkans. Nothing wrong with that but it reminds me Germans.
Lets be frank! As long as you guys sleep with the same bed with Russia we must take note for our security!

Sorry guys, but I will not participate in this thread.

I thought moderator will change.

For me word "bickering" in title is embarrassing and thread should be in Europe, because Balkans is part of Europe, we can between ourselves that we do not agree on many issues, but I would like on this issue your support because Balkans deserves better treatment.

LeBrok
01-11-14, 16:39
Sorry guys, but I will not participate in this thread.

I thought moderator will change.

For me word "bickering" in title is embarrassing and thread should be in Europe, because Balkans is part of Europe, we can between ourselves that we do not agree on many issues, but I would like on this issue your support because Balkans deserves better treatment.

I don't care much how it is called, so have it your way. ;) At least we have a place to take off topic posts from some threads and continue here.

kamani
01-11-14, 18:43
Empowering Albanians would be a stone in European security wall, since Greece and Serbia both lean heavily to Russia.
Serbia I don't think they can become a democratic state at this stage.


Frankly that kind of thinking is wrong and scary because it involves being the guard dog of someone else, and you have no idea who you're being thrown against. Other countries should solve their own issues directly, not use impoverished small countries as cover.

Garrick
02-11-14, 14:38
I don't care much how it is called, so have it your way. ;) At least we have a place to take off topic posts from some threads and continue here.

Thanks LeBrok. moderators duties are hard and you do all efforts to be all right.

I just want that Balkans deserves respect.

The Balkans is part of Europe, not Asia or Africa, and old name for Balkans which is Turkish term, is Peninsula of Haemus, that is Thracian name, in Greek mythology king Haemus of Thrace was son of Boreas.

Yes, today situation is difficult, Balkans is poor and depopulated area, what's interesting, while other parts in world advanced the Balkans went down.

But things can change, once SFR Yugoslavia which was advanced country in Central and Western Balkans, was more developed than South Korea, and today if Balkan countries act wisely can catch the momentum of growth and development.

Piro Ilir
13-07-15, 21:55
Gorgonzola, I must twice because system receives only one clip.

In front of an audience in Prizren, Erdogan said

Kosovo is Turkey

and received applause.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WsermbsyRo
Yes, applause by the Turkish minority of kosova. [emoji6] [emoji23]

Yetos
13-07-15, 22:39
yes, applause by the turkish minority of kosova. [emoji6] [emoji23]

what is going on?

The sons of vallavan pasha deny their father?

Piro Ilir
20-07-15, 22:31
what is going on?

The sons of vallavan pasha deny their father?
You probably know that in Kosova is a small Turkish minority.
Anyway, who is this Vallavan pasha and which are those sons of him you mentioning here. Can you be more precise please, because I don't get it [emoji45].

Yetos
20-07-15, 22:54
You probably know that in Kosova is a small Turkish minority.
Anyway, who is this Vallavan pasha and which are those sons of him you mentioning here. Can you be more precise please, because I don't get it [emoji45].

Vallavan Vadera pasha

Piro Ilir
02-08-15, 22:07
Ok, stop this nonsense. I don't care if Ottomans ordered Albanians to do it, or they did it voluntarily or opportunistically, or you don't hold them accountable, responsible or whatever. Fact is they enforced it, and the bigger problem is that they continued doing it in 20th and 21st century.
No one forced Serbs to leave. No serious source for this. Some Serbs were exchanged with Albanian inhabitants of Nis area. Today the Serbs are in a good and peaceful relationship with Albanians. I don't see any issue for dispute. Serbia is going in the right direction led by the prime minister Vucic. Today the Serbs of Kosova are participating on the government institutions of Kosova.

Piro Ilir
02-08-15, 22:29
Aromani is the main composition of Albania,
the most significant population,
it seems that Vlach men and Slavic women made Albania
E-V13 R1b is very strong in Aromani populations


and about Kastrioti, search the paradox,
one by one your propaganda fails,
I don't know what are you talking here. You mean that vlachs were the majority on Albanian regions. Where were they. Ghosts!? You mean that the Albanian patriots were Vlachs? You mean that the the founders of the independent Albanian orthodox church were not Albanians, but they were Vlachs? You mean that the Albanian patriot Fan Noli who translated the holy written stuffs of the orthodox church into the Albanian language, was not an Albanian.
Albanian orthodox were an important part of the Albanian renaissance. They participate powerful on the building of new Albanian state. I mentioned on a previously post some Albanian orthodox individuals, who were among the best patriots. You are free to read about their life. They spend entire their lifetime contributing on the Albanian national issue .
I don't know much about the genetics, but I doubt your claim on the R1b and Ev13 . Both are part of Albanian lineage, especially in Kosova where the Ev13 has the higher pick. I know many Albanian orthodox, and only a very little percentage of them have Vlach roots.
And why Kastrioti is a paradox? I don't get your point here

Piro Ilir
02-08-15, 22:45
In Albania for more decades (in time of Zogu and Hoxha) minorities didn't have rights. They couldn't belonging to their nation, didn't have right of mother language (about schools no question, nothing), even names they had to have Albanian etc. All inhabitants had to be only Albanians. Even today some nations in Albania have no their rights. Armanji (Aromanians) recognized only as cultural minority not national minority.

Armanji (Aromanians) mostly assimilated. We will see in next censuses if they have right of national minority. Arno Tarner in the book of forgotten minorities writes that today Armanji in Albania are about 100,000 - 200,000 (his estimate). Tom Winnifrith speaks about 200,000. They include and Armanji who speak only Albanian. Ali Pasha and other Albanian pashas, begs and fighters, together with Turks, destroyed Armanji population in Albania, and they are known facts. Once, capital of Armanji land, Moskopole had over 50,000 people, and it was one of the greatest cities in the Balkans. Today Voskopoja (Moskopole) is village with population 2,200 people, everyone can see extent of destruction. Armanji in Albania for centuries suffered oppression, and many have assimilated. They mostly saved their faith and today they are Orthodox Albanians.

One text:

http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1097921.html

"By the mid-18th century, Voskopoja had a population of nearly 50,000 and was reputed to be one of the largest towns in the Balkans. But in 1769, the Turks ordered the local Albanian bey [ruler] to destroy the town but to leave the churches standing, thus beginning a long decline.

Voskopoja today is being depopulated. According to last April's census, Voskopoja and the surrounding villages have a population of 2,200. Many inhabitants work in lowland cities or in Greece.

Dhori Fallo is a writer and local historian. He says Aromanian has always survived, despite difficult conditions: "There has been no school in Aromanian [in Voskopoja] since 1920. So [the Vlachs] had no other choice than to learn Albanian, even having to pay for private lessons. They were Albanian citizens and were only able to speak Aromanian at home."

Today, scholars believe more Vlachs reside in Albania's cities than in the countryside, in marked contrast to the rest of Albania's population. As a result, they say Aromanian is in greater danger than ever of falling into disuse.

No one has any idea exactly how many Vlachs live in Albania. British scholar Tom Winnifrith estimates their number at 200,000, while other estimates put them at well under 50,000. As a result of a decision by Albania's parliament, this year's census made no reference to ethnic identity, mother tongue, or religion."
During the communist dictatorship the whole population including Albanians didn't had any rights. Although Greeks and Vlachs were treated much better than the rest of the population. They were part of the communist leadership party. Moskopole is located in mountainous area. It is a touristic place today. You are free to visit. You will notice that this small city is too mountainous, and this is the reason why it decreased in population and in economic importance. The same happened on other cities of Albanian population. 60-70 of the Albanian territory is geographically mountainous region. There was not any kind of repression. Vlachs participated powerful on the Albanian renaissance. They generally had good and peaceful relations with the Albanians

Piro Ilir
02-08-15, 22:56
so at least you admit the burn down of Moschopolis (relatives in law comes from there)
but what about Durres? first was Aromanian Speakers, second Greeks then Albanians what now?come onj
come on admit it, Goranje people when come to Greece say we are muslim Slavs, and they are >10% of population,
AT LEAST FACE THE TRUTH ONCE,
About which period of the history you are talking? Durres was inhabited by many ethnicities. It was an important economical center. One of the most important principalities of the medieval era was the principality of Arta, located from ambracian gulf spread further south until the gulf of Corinth. The Albanian lord was Gjin Bua Shpata. His principality was inhabited mostly by Albanians. So what? The Greeks living there are assimilated Albanians? We are talking about today

Piro Ilir
02-08-15, 23:06
it is bigger Geopolitical and Geostrategical,
They are pushing Russia and Iran to enter the chess game, by Using Turkey
Turks might be second power in NATO, but they can be divided easily,
Besides History shows that Turks with out Kurds , Albanians or Greeks are very weak, like the Byzantines in their end,
after the fitvah against Ibrahim given by Kadi effents to Suleiman Turkey is decline, only Kemal could save her, and Erdogan is not Kemal,
he listen to suni imams more, than to normal logic,


the old list of terrorist from FOREIGN OFFICE USA, had as terrorists 3 groups
IRA in North Ireland
ETA in Vasquez country
PKK in Turkey
his action is Like Spain bombing Gascones in France for ETA
UK bombing ireland for IRA

he points that by ressurecting old memories of fear, and purposing on religious feelings, he would manage to get his power back,
and if not he might be dictator, playing the game of a 'religious reformer' against Kemal who was not so religious but more militaristic and industrialist
but the truth is that he is pushing Russia and Iran to enter, so give excuse for NATO to enter Iran for nuclear program,
he is smart, but plays with fire, a fire than can not only burn Turkey, but expand in Balkans, Ukjraine etc

I can expand more, but it will sound like Global conspiracy theories
In my opinion Erdogan is not a truly religious man. He just trying to use everything he can to stay in power as long as possible. He is trying to imitate Putin. Turkey is a great nation, we like it or not. They don't need sulltans for their empowerment.

Piro Ilir
02-08-15, 23:10
Yes Yetos. In 17th and 18th century Armanji (Aromanians) were numerous and they wanted to create own state. But Albanians and Turks didn't allow it and they destroyed this nation. Swedish historian Johann Thunmann wrote that in these areas main language was Aromanian and people spoke Greek. Aromanian and Greek, not Albanian. Armanji ended tragically or they were assimilated or they had to escape. According some scholars about 200,000 inhabitants in Albania today are Armanji, though if we take in account time and extent of assimilation, their number can be much higher.
It can't be true. Only Moskopolje was recorded as an Vlach city. What about the Vlachs of Serbia. What happened with them,. The same assimilation which happened to the Albanians of Sandsak? !

Ike
03-08-15, 00:26
No one forced Serbs to leave. No serious source for this. Some Serbs were exchanged with Albanian inhabitants of Nis area. Today the Serbs are in a good and peaceful relationship with Albanians. I don't see any issue for dispute. Serbia is going in the right direction led by the prime minister Vucic. Today the Serbs of Kosova are participating on the government institutions of Kosova.

So, now that you've cleansed the territory, you think that things between you and Serbians are all right? That they're gonna let you get away with that?

Piro Ilir
03-08-15, 12:59
that is correct, but
Ottomans were responsable for the Armenian genocide and many other crimes
After Ottomans were defeated Ataturk founded a new Turkey which was going in the good direction
now there is a new nostalgia in Turkey for 'good old Ottoman times'
Erdogan is a dangerous man and he has many supporters inside Turkey who are nostalgic nationalists and/or believe in Muslim supremacy
he has lost last elections because many Kurds voted against him and now he tries to turn Kurds into outlaws
I don't see any divergence between our posts. We can't blame modern people, for what did their ancestors. People are responsible for their own actions

Piro Ilir
03-08-15, 13:04
then can we blaim the Albanians for the massacre and burn down villages to Greeks?
from Epirus Nova to Peloponese?
To which case or event you are referring? I think you confound all the time Turks and Albanians. This is your problem, not mine.

Piro Ilir
03-08-15, 13:22
So, now that you've cleansed the territory, you think that things between you and Serbians are all right? That they're gonna let you get away with that?
I could say the same for the ethnic cleansing of Nis and south Serbian territory. Albanians composed a large number of the population there before the Serbian ethnic cleansing.
So what they are gonna do ? Can you say that? And don't say "you" because I'm not representing any country nor any state here, only myself.
Ike, at least, Serbs never won a war against the Albanians. [emoji23]. For sure Albanians were among the best soldiers during millennia.
You like it or not, today relationships between Serbs and Albanians are good and are going on the right direction.
A new war with be tremendous and disastrous for the Serbs.

Yetos
03-08-15, 14:06
To which case or event you are referring? I think you confound all the time Turks and Albanians. This is your problem, not mine.

search the father of Kolokotronis whith whom he mess and who were at the battle of Lalla

Yetos
03-08-15, 14:07
To which case or event you are referring? I think you confound all the time Turks and Albanians. This is your problem, not mine.

the same thing

Yetos
03-08-15, 14:08
It can't be true. Only Moskopolje was recorded as an Vlach city. What about the Vlachs of Serbia. What happened with them,. The same assimilation which happened to the Albanians of Sandsak? !

yes it is true

Ike
03-08-15, 16:24
I could say the same for the ethnic cleansing of Nis and south Serbian territory. Albanians composed a large number of the population there before the Serbian ethnic cleansing.
So what they are gonna do ? Can you say that? And don't say "you" because I'm not representing any country nor any state here, only myself.
Ike, at least, Serbs never won a war against the Albanians. [emoji23]. For sure Albanians were among the best soldiers during millennia.
You like it or not, today relationships between Serbs and Albanians are good and are going on the right direction.
A new war with be tremendous and disastrous for the Serbs.

That's exactly what is the problem. If it was about war of Serbia against Albanians the result is undisputable, but from your expectations, you're obviously counting on a foreign involvement. Probably Turkey? That's why Albanians are so courageous last couple of decades. Always looking where to start a new war. The only thing I will tell you, if it gets so hot to be disastrous for Serbs it will also be devastating for Albanians and the region. Think about that before sending your troops.

Garrick
04-08-15, 02:05
For those who contradict the Muslims,like you


No. If I speak positively about EU it doesn't means that contradict the Muslims. In general you are mistakenly thinking that EU has something against Muslims. Refuges from Muslim countries come in EU, not in other areas. And Serbia help these people as much as possible. You should be more real. The situation is difficult and people do what they can.

Garrick
04-08-15, 02:16
It can't be true. Only Moskopolje was recorded as an Vlach city. What about the Vlachs of Serbia. What happened with them,. The same assimilation which happened to the Albanians of Sandsak? !

Nobody from Serbs, or Bulgarians, or Greeks etc. destroyed Armanji (Aromanian) towns and villages in Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, etc., killed or expelled Armanji people, as Albanian pashas and begs did in Albania, and their Turkish allies. For example Moskopole was one of the biggest cities in the whole Balkans in 18th century. And what? It is destroyed. It is difference.

Extent of Armanji suffering in Albania has similarities with suffering of Armenians and Assyrians in Turkey.


I could say the same for the ethnic cleansing of Nis and south Serbian territory. Albanians composed a large number of the population there before the Serbian ethnic cleansing.
So what they are gonna do ? Can you say that? And don't say "you" because I'm not representing any country nor any state here, only myself.
Ike, at least, Serbs never won a war against the Albanians. For sure Albanians were among the best soldiers during millennia.
You like it or not, today relationships between Serbs and Albanians are good and are going on the right direction.
A new war with be tremendous and disastrous for the Serbs.

You know history very little. Maybe you're young, but it is not excuse.

Ike
04-08-15, 09:09
you do realise mankind from stone-age to present have prayed to the same God regardless of what symbol or form God took ( in their minds )

LoL. I don't like your visualisation of God. Yours is tall and has a bird head, and mine in small, fat with moustaches. I shall now kill you and your people (all except young females with BMI 19-26) and destroy your land (except for the fortresses, cities, roads, mines, and anything valuable) :D

Sile
04-08-15, 11:37
LoL. I don't like your visualisation of God. Yours is tall and has a bird head, and mine in small, fat with moustaches. I shall now kill you and your people (all except young females with BMI 19-26) and destroy your land (except for the fortresses, cities, roads, mines, and anything valuable) :D

Mine is more inclined to be female.............since we all are conceived as females and after about 6 weeks , something triggers in the pregnancy and so some become males.

http://www.examiner.com/article/we-re-all-created-equal-we-were-all-conceived-as-females-first

http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/2xfupr/are_we_really_all_female_at_conception/ (http://www.examiner.com/article/we-re-all-created-equal-we-were-all-conceived-as-females-first)



So, the ancients ( all over the world ) whose deity in the majority was female could always have been correct ................maybe there was a plot by the big 3, judea, Muslim and Christian to make the religion male dominated :disappointed:

Ike
04-08-15, 13:15
Mine is more inclined to be female.............since we all are conceived as females and after about 6 weeks , something triggers in the pregnancy and so some become males.

http://www.examiner.com/article/we-re-all-created-equal-we-were-all-conceived-as-females-first

(http://www.examiner.com/article/we-re-all-created-equal-we-were-all-conceived-as-females-first)http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/2xfupr/are_we_really_all_female_at_conception/

I'm not a doctor, but this sounds like a females are just males with undeveloped sexual organs. Or males are just females whose sexual organs have been incubated under the rays of testosterone to a reasonable proportions? From philosophical point of view it's just a problem of glass that is half empty of half full? Do we perceive males as 'females to which something happened', or females as 'males to which something didn't happen'?




So, the ancients ( all over the world ) whose deity in the majority was female could always have been correct ................maybe there was a plot by the big 3, judea, Muslim and Christian to make the religion male dominated :disappointed:

Well dogs probably imagine their gods in Anubis form, people in human form, and since it created the whole universe it is probably some sort of dark matter plasma gas....

Piro Ilir
04-08-15, 13:18
search the father of Kolokotronis whith whom he mess and who were at the battle of Lalla
As I far as we know, kolokotroni was an Albanian, arvanitas

Piro Ilir
04-08-15, 13:29
That's exactly what is the problem. If it was about war of Serbia against Albanians the result is undisputable, but from your expectations, you're obviously counting on a foreign involvement. Probably Turkey? That's why Albanians are so courageous last couple of decades. Always looking where to start a new war. The only thing I will tell you, if it gets so hot to be disastrous for Serbs it will also be devastating for Albanians and the region. Think about that before sending your troops.
As far as I know, Albanians are too proud. They will never allow the Turks nor any other foreigners troops to fight for them. They were the best soldiers and fighters of the Roman empire, the Byzantium, and the ottoman empire. If you ever read history, you certainly know

Piro Ilir
04-08-15, 13:31
Your country and mine are better without being part of that damn EU

Words of God:

http://www.parsquran.com/data/show.php?lang=eng&user=eng&quantity=&sura=2&ayat=216


http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nora/html/2-120.html

I think the EU will self-sinking sooner or later,anyway the EU will reject any country like yours or mine, for one reason, we are Muslims,get no doubts.



For those who contradict the Muslims,like you :laughing:



The Catalans,Flanders too :wary2:

Have a good day.
Within or without EU, for sure all we need is the democracy.

Милан М.
04-08-15, 13:33
As far as I know, Albanians are too proud. They will never allow the Turks nor any other foreigners troops to fight for them. They were the best soldiers and fighters of the Roman empire, the Byzantium, and the ottoman empire. If you ever read history, you certainly know
When Albanians are first mentioned Roman empire was long gone,Byzantine in their end,first mentioned in the 12th century,don't know what people dream about here,as for the Ottomans indeed they had some pasha's of Arbanas origin.

Милан М.
04-08-15, 13:37
I could say the same for the ethnic cleansing of Nis and south Serbian territory. Albanians composed a large number of the population there before the Serbian ethnic cleansing.
So what they are gonna do ? Can you say that? And don't say "you" because I'm not representing any country nor any state here, only myself.
Ike, at least, Serbs never won a war against the Albanians. [emoji23]. For sure Albanians were among the best soldiers during millennia.
You like it or not, today relationships between Serbs and Albanians are good and are going on the right direction.
A new war with be tremendous and disastrous for the Serbs.
The territory of Albania in the Middle Ages most of the time was under either Serb or Bulgar domination,in 1912 entire Albania was occupied by Serb troops and annexed,later Austro-Hungarians gave ultimatum on the Serbs if they don't retreat they will attack them,some others also supported Albanian country.That's how Albania was created for first time.You spread all over the place because of Ottoman empire and large part of you were Muslims,on Christians were made exodus after every rebelion,there were 2 great Serb migrations out of Ottoman empire,let alone others,later populated by Muslims,accept that fact.
Serb troops in Durres,Greetings from the Serbian coast say the picture.Why Albanians think they are Illyrians and best soldiers :petrified: Others don't fight your wars rather they make colonies.
http://www.albanianhistory.net/graf/images20_1/AH1912_4durres2_gr.jpg
Anyway wars brought nothing good to anyone in Europe,let alone Balkans which happened more often,which is full with nationalism can be seen all over this Eupedia,most of the time Balkan issues,while people don't realize most of Balkans countries are irrelevant right now.It is important geo politicaly but the countries not at all.

Piro Ilir
04-08-15, 14:03
Nobody from Serbs, or Bulgarians, or Greeks etc. destroyed Armanji (Aromanian) towns and villages in Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, etc., killed or expelled Armanji people, as Albanian pashas and begs did in Albania, and their Turkish allies. For example Moskopole was one of the biggest cities in the whole Balkans in 18th century. And what? It is destroyed. It is difference.

Extent of Armanji suffering in Albania has similarities with suffering of Armenians and Assyrians in Turkey.



You know history very little. Maybe you're young, but it is not excuse.
First: Moskopolje never was such large city as you mentioning. It never passed the 30000 inhabitants. Probably less. Comparing the Armenian genocide with the Vlach situation in Albania means that you never read history or you read only anti Albanian propaganda. Try to read serious sources. What happened with the Vlach of Serbia? Assimilated.
Albanians are responsible only for the time when they got their own independent state, not about the period of ottoman invasion. Vlach population in Albania participated on the Albanian renaissance, and this is a historical fact. The anthem of the Albanians is akin with the anthem of Romania. Bucharest was the center of Albanian diaspora and of the Albanian renaissance either. During the history the Vlach population of Albania became assimilate. Some of them were assimilated into Albanian Muslims and others into Albanian Christians.
I have a close friend, who has the mother Vlach orthodox and the father Muslim bektashi Albanian. He is a Muslim today. He also was a member of KLA and fought against the Serbian army in Kosova. He is a veteran of KLA today. He today has three daughters. His daughters are Muslim . His daughters probably will married Albanian guys. They will have children, and their children with be totally Albanians. This is a peaceful assimilation process. No need that someone kill anyone.
Some Albanians sunny Muslim and bektashi Muslim have roots on the Vlach population. So this mean that the majority of Albanian orthodox don't have roots on Vlach population. The Vlachs became assimilated on all the 4 religions of Albania.

Piro Ilir
04-08-15, 14:27
Mine is more inclined to be female.............since we all are conceived as females and after about 6 weeks , something triggers in the pregnancy and so some become males.

http://www.examiner.com/article/we-re-all-created-equal-we-were-all-conceived-as-females-first

http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/2xfupr/are_we_really_all_female_at_conception/ (http://www.examiner.com/article/we-re-all-created-equal-we-were-all-conceived-as-females-first)



So, the ancients ( all over the world ) whose deity in the majority was female could always have been correct ................maybe there was a plot by the big 3, judea, Muslim and Christian to make the religion male dominated :disappointed:
The male dominance started forward at 3000 bce, maybe

Piro Ilir
04-08-15, 22:57
Vallavan Vadera pasha
What has to do Vallavan pasha on this discussion? Who was he?

Sile
04-08-15, 23:46
Jesus, is the most important prophet of Koran. This is not mentioned today form the imams generally because of the politics. During the life of Prophet Mohammad christians and Hebrews were treated equally with the Muslims. ( by the standards of the time) . They were not discriminated. After the death of prophet, the four caliphs after him were elected. After the assassination of the last caliph imam Ali, the Caliphate became a monarchy. Since that time till today, there was not a real Caliphate, because the prophet said that the caliph should be elected.

You do realise , that judism, christians and muslim pray to the same God , do you realise this?

-with the founding of muslim ~400AD there was no new GOD created

-These 3 religions ( judism, christians and muslim ) got together and decided that every other religion in the world apart from theirs, is a pagan religion, but this theory is only to benefit themselves, its called Greed. The only possibility is that GOD ( the same that judism, christians and muslim pray to ) was around prior to these 3 (judism, christians and muslim) and that these "pagan " religions also prayed to the same GOD ..............it makes no other logical sense to have any other format UNLESS you think their is more than one GOD.
So which is it for muslims, the same GOD or a new GOD?

Garrick
05-08-15, 00:35
Yes, applause by the Turkish minority of kosova.

Do not be silly, members of Turkish minority are totally irrelevant to the this ceremony. Albanians have been widely welcomed Erdogan almost like sultan. Hashim Thaci personally applauded the words of Erdogan.

Garrick
05-08-15, 00:40
Uh, no, Democracy was invented by the Greeks, and religious Jewish society is as male controlled and as dictatorial as the typical Muslim society.

P.S if the Muslims don't want to live in a Democratic society, then why do you keep coming to Europe? Moroccans seem to come mainly to the Netherlands and Belgium, and if most of them are as yourself, why do they come? Because let's face it, the typical Dutchman could live an entire life without immigrants flooding his street.

I told him similar, but no answer. If Europe is not good for them why their migrants mostly trying to settle in Europe. Why they do not go to Muslim countries where is the same culture and customs.

Garrick
05-08-15, 00:47
Jesus, is the most important prophet of Koran. This is not mentioned today form the imams generally because of the politics. During the life of Prophet Mohammad christians and Hebrews were treated equally with the Muslims. ( by the standards of the time) . They were not discriminated. After the death of prophet, the four caliphs after him were elected. After the assassination of the last caliph imam Ali, the Caliphate became a monarchy. Since that time till today, there was not a real Caliphate, because the prophet said that the caliph should be elected.

You know you something passed over. What about jizya? It is per capita tax for Christians and Jews who live in Islamic state; about more things on another time.

Ike
05-08-15, 02:28
I have a close friend, who has the mother Vlach orthodox and the father Muslim bektashi Albanian. He is a Muslim today. He also was a member of KLA and fought against the Serbian army in Kosova. He is a veteran of KLA today. He today has three daughters. His daughters are Muslim. His daughters probably will married Albanian guys. They will have children, and their children with be totally Albanians. This is a peaceful assimilation process. No need that someone kill anyone.

Except when your close friend was killing civilians and policeman of different ethnicity.

-RIFFIAN-
05-08-15, 03:19
I told him similar, but no answer. If Europe is not good for them why their migrants mostly trying to settle in Europe. Why they do not go to Muslim countries where is the same culture and customs.

The first Moroccans have migrated to Europe have immigrated by request of the own European countries, Germany, France mainly after WWII.

Sub-Saharan Africans are trying to immigrate to Europe not Moroccans, must remember that most of those sub-Saharan Africans are Christians.

Moroccans now no longer immigrate to Europe only in specific cases, students, family regroup.
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/morocco-setting-stage-becoming-migration-transition-country

Rather there are now European immigration to Morocco
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2013/0321/The-world-upside-down-The-rise-of-Spanish-immigration-to-Morocco

http://geopolis.francetvinfo.fr/le-maroc-terre-dimmigration-pour-les-travailleurs-francais-23953

''Wave of mass immigration of Spaniards and French graduates in Morocco'' (French TV channel) understands French? soon we will have a mixture of Europeans here :laughing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKRqlt7DAeI

John Doe
05-08-15, 07:01
The first Moroccans have migrated to Europe have immigrated by request of the own European countries, Germany, France mainly after WWII.
That is true, but the migrants who came to work and actually managed to assimilate (only to have their children overturn the assimilation) aren't really the issue, it's all those immigrants who come not just from Nigeria, but from Mali, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Eritrea, who decide to come to Europe when Europe has no obligation to take them since the countries I have mentioned don't border Europe.

Piro Ilir
06-08-15, 22:19
Do not be silly, members of Turkish minority are totally irrelevant to the this ceremony. Albanians have been widely welcomed Erdogan almost like sultan. Hashim Thaci personally applauded the words of Erdogan.
No you don't be silly.
In kosova is a large Turkish minority. Now you are able to figure out who is an ethnic Albanian and who is a Turk by their appearance.[emoji57] Come on.

Piro Ilir
06-08-15, 22:28
When Albanians are first mentioned Roman empire was long gone,Byzantine in their end,first mentioned in the 12th century,don't know what people dream about here,as for the Ottomans indeed they had some pasha's of Arbanas origin.
Yes, the king of Egypt was an Albanian pasha who rebelled against the ottomans and became the king of Egypt. All the serious scholars agreed about the Hyllirians- Albanian continuity . Of course except some Serb and Russian nationalist scholars. Albanians were first mentioned at the second century ad (150ad ) on the same territory were they live today. They were one of too many Hyllirian tribes of that time. Read more before claiming stuff.

Piro Ilir
06-08-15, 22:45
The territory of Albania in the Middle Ages most of the time was under either Serb or Bulgar domination,in 1912 entire Albania was occupied by Serb troops and annexed,later Austro-Hungarians gave ultimatum on the Serbs if they don't retreat they will attack them,some others also supported Albanian country.That's how Albania was created for first time.You spread all over the place because of Ottoman empire and large part of you were Muslims,on Christians were made exodus after every rebelion,there were 2 great Serb migrations out of Ottoman empire,let alone others,later populated by Muslims,accept that fact.
Serb troops in Durres,Greetings from the Serbian coast say the picture.Why Albanians think they are Illyrians and best soldiers [emoji14]etrified: Others don't fight your wars rather they make colonies.
http://www.albanianhistory.net/graf/images20_1/AH1912_4durres2_gr.jpg
Anyway wars brought nothing good to anyone in Europe,let alone Balkans which happened more often,which is full with nationalism can be seen all over this Eupedia,most of the time Balkan issues,while people don't realize most of Balkans countries are irrelevant right now.It is important geo politicaly but the countries not at all.
Serbia was created by the intervention of the foreign powers especially Russia. Read the Russian- Turkish treaty of Bucharest, and many others. The same goes for the Greek,Romanian,Montenegro, Bulgarian independence . When the Albanian lands which were under the ottoman invasion , in 1912 were military attacked by the troops of Bulgaria, Montenegro, Greece and Serbia, with the support of Russia of course . Albania was not yet an independent state, so it was impossible to fight against four state armies within the same time. You sow what happened the last war

Garrick
07-08-15, 01:00
Serbia was created by the intervention of the foreign powers especially Russia. Read the Russian- Turkish treaty of Bucharest, and many others. The same goes for the Greek,Romanian,Montenegro, Bulgarian independence . When the Albanian lands which were under the ottoman invasion , in 1912 were military attacked by the troops of Bulgaria, Montenegro, Greece and Serbia, with the support of Russia of course . Albania was not yet an independent state, so it was impossible to fight against four state armies within the same time. You sow what happened the last war

You obviously don't know what happened, I have no intention to wider discussion.

But if you want you can see today's situation in Macedonia, again, no chance.

Garrick
07-08-15, 01:04
The first Moroccans have migrated to Europe have immigrated by request of the own European countries, Germany, France mainly after WWII.


I didn't mention Morocco, and I'm very glad that in Morocco is better situation.

But you can see every day how many migrants enter in Europe from Africa and Western Asia.

Boreas
07-08-15, 06:02
But you can see every day how many migrants enter in Europe from Africa and Western Asia.

You can thing it as human diffusion and the only solution of it is increasing life quality all around the world.

How can accuse Syrians, world didn't create no fly-zone for them.

and stop arm trade
http://www.cspe.tv/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/webassets/ARMS_Map.jpg

Piro Ilir
07-08-15, 12:49
Western-style democracy where women rule,Muslims do not want,democracy in general is a Jewish invention, there is no a Jewish man who is not driven by his wife,plus too many westeners,women in the west have 1000pc rights,men have almost no rights,this is called equality in the west :confused2:

No Thanks,we d'ont need this democracy :grin:
First time I hear that western democracy is a women ruling state. In a real democracy every one has equal rights. I didn't know that democracy was a Jewish invention. George Washington was not a Jewish. Equal rights for all, is the clue to democracy.

Piro Ilir
07-08-15, 12:51
Uh, no, Democracy was invented by the Greeks, and religious Jewish society is as male controlled and as dictatorial as the typical Muslim society.

P.S if the Muslims don't want to live in a Democratic society, then why do you keep coming to Europe? Moroccans seem to come mainly to the Netherlands and Belgium, and if most of them are as yourself, why do they come? Because let's face it, the typical Dutchman could live an entire life without immigrants flooding his street.
He is not representing here all the Muslims. The situation in Muslim will change soon or later

Piro Ilir
07-08-15, 12:56
Muslims prefer to have their own style of democracy, not that who have the West,(namely Western democracy with several exceptions) I think we are already enjoying in several Arab and Muslim countries,we can begin from Turkey,Morocco, UAE, Tunisia etc ...

100pc Western democracy is impossible to apply in Muslim societies, simply because we are different,profoundly different.
Do you ever read history? Not always the women and the black people were allowed to vote. There was a time during the course of democracy throughout the Western countries when only the white males were allowed to vote. The democracy is a process.

Piro Ilir
07-08-15, 13:05
You do realise , that judism, christians and muslim pray to the same God , do you realise this?

-with the founding of muslim ~400AD there was no new GOD created

-These 3 religions ( judism, christians and muslim ) got together and decided that every other religion in the world apart from theirs, is a pagan religion, but this theory is only to benefit themselves, its called Greed. The only possibility is that GOD ( the same that judism, christians and muslim pray to ) was around prior to these 3 (judism, christians and muslim) and that these "pagan " religions also prayed to the same GOD ..............it makes no other logical sense to have any other format UNLESS you think their is more than one GOD.
So which is it for muslims, the same GOD or a new GOD?
I never said that there are different Gods. God had sent prophets since the first times of human kind. All the pagan religions generally are related with the Abraham's religions. I think Zeus includes either. During the course of history the pagan religions were deformed from the first way of worshiping the God . That's why are called pagans.

Piro Ilir
07-08-15, 13:06
I told him similar, but no answer. If Europe is not good for them why their migrants mostly trying to settle in Europe. Why they do not go to Muslim countries where is the same culture and customs.
Stop judging people as a group. They are individuals. Muslims are not a homogeneous group of people.

Piro Ilir
07-08-15, 13:10
You know you something passed over. What about jizya? It is per capita tax for Christians and Jews who live in Islamic state; about more things on another time.
What about "sadaka" and other taxes that Muslims were forced to pay to the state. There are some taxes that were paid only by the Muslims. At least this is a medieval history.

Piro Ilir
07-08-15, 13:13
Except when your close friend was killing civilians and policeman of different ethnicity.
He was an Albanian patriot with some Vlach roots. His mother is a Vlach. He go to kosova to protect the civilians from the criminals of war of Milosevic

Piro Ilir
07-08-15, 13:19
You obviously don't know what happened, I have no intention to wider discussion.

But if you want you can see today's situation in Macedonia, again, no chance.
You need to read about the treaty of Bucharest, and other treaties which followed the Russian- Turkish wars. The only reason why Serbia had a larger territory than Albania was because of the intervention of Russia

Piro Ilir
07-08-15, 13:20
You obviously don't know what happened, I have no intention to wider discussion.

But if you want you can see today's situation in Macedonia, again, no chance.
What about Macedonia? [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45]

Piro Ilir
07-08-15, 13:22
You can thing it as human diffusion and the only solution of it is increasing life quality all around the world.

How can accuse Syrians, world didn't create no fly-zone for them.

and stop arm trade
http://www.cspe.tv/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/webassets/ARMS_Map.jpg
It was the Russian intervention that in middle east is not a no fly zone, unfortunately

Ike
07-08-15, 14:44
He was an Albanian patriot with some Vlach roots. His mother is a Vlach. He go to kosova to protect the civilians from the criminals of war of Milosevic

He was a Muslim terrorist coming here to kill Christians. That's what he was.

We all know that Vatican and CIA propaganda built you a fault excuse around Milosevic to go round and kill Orthodox and destroy monasteries. If Milosevich wanted Kosovo by force he could have cleansed it in 1990 in a week without a single crime. Don't give that s*it to me. It's like saying that USA army couldn't handle Mexican immigrants in Texas, but had to battle them for 10 years. The only problem Yugoslavs had was that Milosevic was a peaceful man and wanted reintegration of Albanians into normal European society, without acknowledging their real goals. As far as my knowledge goes about alternative options in the parliament of Serbia, if anyone else was the head of the state, today would probably be no Albanians on Kosovo. Only one who didn't care for religion was a Milosevic as an ideological communist, and he was your savior.

Boreas
07-08-15, 17:05
The only problem Yugoslavs had was that Milosevic was a peaceful man and wantedof Albanians into normal European society, without acknowledging their real goals.

:petrified:

Garrick
07-08-15, 17:30
What about "sadaka" and other taxes that Muslims were forced to pay to the state. There are some taxes that were paid only by the Muslims. At least this is a medieval history.

As good Muslim you use taqiyya. But in today's time of Internet even people in Amazonia know for it. Jizya is obligatory upon dihimmis, it is mandated by the Quran and the Hadits.

Garrick
07-08-15, 17:44
You need to read about the treaty of Bucharest, and other treaties which followed the Russian- Turkish wars. The only reason why Serbia had a larger territory than Albania was because of the intervention of Russia

You don't know history.

Albanians were main Turkish allies in the Balkans. Muslim Albanian pashas, begs, fighters were active participants against Balkan Christians, and not only Balkan. For example attacker on the Vienna, Kara Mustafa Pasha was ethnic Albanian, but he and his troops 150,000 had hard defeat, big winner were Polish king John III Sobieski and Vienna's defenders.

Russia was against Serbia in II Balkan war, and in the side of Bulgaria. According plans Bulgaria wanted Vardar's Macedonia, even any Albanian territories and Aegean sea. Greece and Serbia were the only allies, but Greek/Serbian forces were prepared and more motivated.

Yetos
07-08-15, 20:24
He was an Albanian patriot with some Vlach roots. His mother is a Vlach. He go to kosova to protect the civilians from the criminals of war of Milosevic

so now except Moschopolis you admit that Aromani population exists also elsewhere in Albania????

Yetos
07-08-15, 20:30
Serbia was created by the intervention of the foreign powers especially Russia. Read the Russian- Turkish treaty of Bucharest, and many others. The same goes for the Greek,Romanian,Montenegro, Bulgarian independence . When the Albanian lands which were under the ottoman invasion , in 1912 were military attacked by the troops of Bulgaria, Montenegro, Greece and Serbia, with the support of Russia of course . Albania was not yet an independent state, so it was impossible to fight against four state armieshttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#66069669) within the same time. You sow what happened the last war

When Balkanic countries started to liberated, you wanted and served Ottoman empire, from Orlov's revolt at 1700 till 1912 you were and suported ottomans,
as true children of Ballaban pasha.
even at 1912 many in Albania supported the WEST TURKEY state,
it was K Vlore who studied in Greece and wrote many in his newspaper, that turn you to Albanians,

Sile
07-08-15, 21:45
I never said that there are different Gods. God had sent prophets since the first times of human kind. All the pagan religions generally are related with the Abraham's religions. I think Zeus includes either. During the course of history the pagan religions were deformed from the first way of worshiping the God . That's why are called pagans.

to conclude then , the ancient stone-age people, the ancient egyptians, greeks, romans, norse etc etc prayed to the same God as we do today................so whats the point of these religious battles currently happening today?............it must logically be only some religious leader fascist mentality , don't you agree!

Rethel
07-08-15, 22:40
As good Muslim you use taqiyya.

Taqiyya isn't a problem.
Every one who knows the Bible, will see very well, that Koran is a joke... and a mass... :smile:
Hadiths... they were produced in such large numbers, that we can recreate every minute of the life of Mohammed... :laughing:
So... obvious is, that Islam is fabricate, and it wasn't even done to cleverly...

Rethel
07-08-15, 22:48
to conclude then , the ancient stone-age people, the ancient egyptians, greeks, romans, norse etc etc prayed to the same God as we do today................so whats the point of these religious battles currently happening today?............it must logically be only some religious leader fascist mentality , don't you agree!

Not at all... even if at the beginning everyone was praing to the same God, after many centuries people
create their own traditions, customs, myths based on their own imagination, and do not do, what is right
and godly. So... every pagan religion must be elimitane as a fraud, because they teach bad and sometimes
awefull things, and never were able to create a free and developed civilisation.

Here is a small probe of pagan society: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26016-African-Culture-compared-to-European

Very interesting thread.

If you think that everything is the same, I advice you to live there or maybe in aztec-maya times... :)

Yetos
08-08-15, 06:41
Yes, the king of Egypt was an Albanian pasha who rebelled against the ottomans and became the king of Egypt. All the serious scholars agreed about the Hyllirians- Albanian continuity . Of course except some Serb and Russian nationalist scholars. Albanians were first mentioned at the second century ad (150ad ) on the same territory were they livehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#12557513) today. They were one of too many Hyllirian tribes of that time. Read more before claiming stuff.

Albanians were mentioned by Maximus of Moesia in the Getan tribes, in Romania
Germidava was a Getan colony,

there is no continue among Illyrians and Albanians

Sile
08-08-15, 08:03
Not at all... even if at the beginning everyone was praing to the same God, after many centuries people
create their own traditions, customs, myths based on their own imagination, and do not do, what is right
and godly. So... every pagan religion must be elimitane as a fraud, because they teach bad and sometimes
awefull things, and never were able to create a free and developed civilisation.

Here is a small probe of pagan society: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26016-African-Culture-compared-to-European

Very interesting thread.

If you think that everything is the same, I advice you to live there or maybe in aztec-maya times... :)

you fail to understand............ the ultimate thing is for a person to pray to God, that is the sole aim, don't you agree?...............then customs, traditions, myths etc etc...mean nothing they count for nothing .
The only other avenue for a person is ....they do not believe in God.

Garrick
08-08-15, 15:31
Taqiyya isn't a problem.

I appreciate people as is Riffian, because he emphases he is Muslim, he is open, and dialog with him is interesting.

But if someone is Muslim and hides, or attempts to apply taqiyya, than there is no serious talk.

Rethel
08-08-15, 18:17
you fail to understand............ the ultimate thing is for a person to pray to God, that is the sole aim, don't you agree?...............then customs, traditions, myths etc etc...mean nothing they count for nothing .

I'm not agree at all. This is a deistic or agnostic point of view...
It doesn't matter if someone prays, if he do not do what is right.


The only other avenue for a person is ....they do not believe in God.

It is of course the most stupid idea, but if someone want to... :laughing:
God is not forbidding anyone to not belive in him... :smile:

Ike
08-08-15, 19:43
I'm not agree at all. This is a deistic or agnostic point of view...
It doesn't matter if someone prays if he do not do what is right.

But it doesn't matter what you do, because there is no other God than the one that is :)

Rethel
08-08-15, 20:00
But it doesn't matter what you do, because there is no other God than the one that is :)

Yea, I get it, but the point of Sile was:

"so whats the point of these religious battles currently happening today?"

And I aswered to this problem :smile:

Sile
08-08-15, 21:20
Yea, I get it, but the point of Sile was:

"so whats the point of these religious battles currently happening today?"

And I aswered to this problem :smile:

If I had to pick which religion comes close to the way I see religion it would be

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

with the inclusion of .........once religion is taught to a child, then further teachings are irrelevant and should not be practised and also sees religion as a private personnel agenda.

Garrick
09-08-15, 09:49
so at least you admit the burn down of Moschopolis (relatives in law comes from there)
but what about Durres? first was Aromanian Speakers, second Greeks then Albanians what now?come onj
come on admit it, Goranje people when come to Greece say we are muslim Slavs, and they are >10% of population,
AT LEAST FACE THE TRUTH ONCE,

Several centuries from the start a new era Balkans was depopulated. On other side area of today's Moldavia, Romania, South Western Ukraine, etc. became full of different tribes, "big crowded", including newcomers from Central Asia.

Several Free Dacians tribes, Albanian origin, started migrations, and one of big part came to today's Albania. Romanian scientists think from these tribes most probably Carpi and Costoboci are Albanians, but it is possible there are more.

In present day Albania before coming of Carpi, Costoboci or other Albanian tribes mostly lived Armanji and Greeks.

Ike
09-08-15, 12:38
If you know how it works, why you are still poor underdog? Use your knowledge for your benefit finally.

OMG, not again :) As, I've told you couple of times Le Brok, I don't want to compete with you in your game. How can you not understand that? It's the game you invented and keep it for yourself.

Just as you would not compete for the love of Ricky Martin, and would not be depressed for being labeled as a total outsider in his reality show called "Choosing my sex slave", neither do most of us feel anything towards the kind words you've just sent to me. But what I simply cannot understand, is that an adult and educated person like you, would not accept that someone's constant insistence of us playing his game, is so blatant and aggressive that defending from it it is not only annoying, but time and resource consuming to the point that it is exhausting. Do you understand that most of the reason why we feel bad in this country is not for "being the underdog in your game", but because we're constantly being pushed around to do what we don't want?

Imagine you like playing tennis. How would you feel with a neighbour that is stealing you balls, coming at night and cutting you net, digging the holes in your field, and dropping bowling balls on you from his terrace, intercepting your children on the way from school and convincing them that tennis is bad and evil and that bowling is for "real men", etc? I hope that you now have the idea, what I feel about your (and most of the western) countries, that you will finally stop giving these kinds of comments, and that the sole reason that we cannot enjoy more in our tennis game is because we're constantly dealing with s**t you're throwing at us.

LeBrok
09-08-15, 17:47
OMG, not again :) As, I've told you couple of times Le Brok, I don't want to compete with you in your game. How can you not understand that? It's the game you invented and keep it for yourself.

Just as you would not compete for the love of Ricky Martin, and would not be depressed for being labeled as a total outsider in his reality show called "Choosing my sex slave", neither do most of us feel anything towards the kind words you've just sent to me. But what I simply cannot understand, is that an adult and educated person like you, would not accept that someone's constant insistence of us playing his game, is so blatant and aggressive that defending from it it is not only annoying, but time and resource consuming to the point that it is exhausting. Do you understand that most of the reason why we feel bad in this country is not for "being the underdog in your game", but because we're constantly being pushed around to do what we don't want?
Your game is gone! Yugoslavia is gone, socialism is gone. What the hell you're playing now?!!!



Imagine you like playing tennis. How would you feel with a neighbour that is stealing you balls, coming at night and cutting you net, digging the holes in your field, and dropping bowling balls on you from his terrace, intercepting your children on the way from school and convincing them that tennis is bad and evil and that bowling is for "real men", etc? I hope that you now have the idea, what I feel about your (and most of the western) countries, that you will finally stop giving these kinds of comments, and that the sole reason that we cannot enjoy more in our tennis game is because we're constantly dealing with s**t you're throwing at us.
Well, exactly how Bosnia, Slovenia and Croatia felt about your game of arrogance and bestiality. Now even Serbs don't what to play "your" game. You are a lonely and bitter player of some archaic game that no one want to play and doesn't exist. Wake up. Don't be a zombie.

If you like your old crazy game so much, you can always go to Cuba or North Korea to enjoy it. They execute homosexuals, and bureaucrats behave like psychopaths. You will love it.

Ike
09-08-15, 18:20
Your game is gone! Yugoslavia is gone, socialism is gone. What the hell you're playing now?!!!

Yes, I know my country is gone. I always get reminded when I'm on the internet by random people:

7394



Your country helped it being destroyed. Smashed it into pieces, killed our citizens and occupied it. At least there are still some decent people it the West that admit your involvment in this neo-nazi crime.
https://www.thetrumpet.com/literature/1706/germanys-conquest-of-the-balkans




Well, exactly how Bosnia, Slovenia and Croatia felt about your game of arrogance and bestiality. Now even Serbs don't what to play "your" game. You are a lonely and bitter player of some archaic game that no one want to play and doesn't exist. Wake up. Don't be a zombie.
Ask your NATO president about that. He is the one who played it best.


If you like your old crazy game so much, you can always go to Cuba or North Korea to enjoy it. They execute homosexuals, and bureaucrats behave like psychopaths. You will love it.
You are so obsessed with your bipolar world view, that you still don't get it that I don't care about communism, and I don't want it. I am not talking about that. Can't you get it? Why is it so hard for you to get out of that shell?

Piro Ilir
09-08-15, 21:34
He was a Muslim terrorist coming here to kill Christians. That's what he was.

We all know that Vatican and CIA propaganda built you a fault excuse around Milosevic to go round and kill Orthodox and destroy monasteries. If Milosevich wanted Kosovo by force he could have cleansed it in 1990 in a week without a single crime. Don't give that s*it to me. It's like saying that USA army couldn't handle Mexican immigrants in Texas, but had to battle them for 10 years. The only problem Yugoslavs had was that Milosevic was a peaceful man and wanted reintegration of Albanians into normal European society, without acknowledging their real goals. As far as my knowledge goes about alternative options in the parliament of Serbia, if anyone else was the head of the state, today would probably be no Albanians on Kosovo. Only one who didn't care for religion was a Milosevic as an ideological communist, and he was your savior.
The mother of my friend was an orthodox. His two grand parents which raised him were orthodox. So I don't see why he should killed the orthodox.
Although Milosevic got jailed by the international court, so everything about him today is clear. There was no a possibility that anyone else from the Serbian government could made on kosova any cleansing. The situation throughout Yugoslavia ended better for the Serbs, trust me. There was the risk that Serbia to loose parts of her territory. They ended good. [emoji6]

Piro Ilir
09-08-15, 21:39
As good Muslim you use taqiyya. But in today's time of Internet even people in Amazonia know for it. Jizya is obligatory upon dihimmis, it is mandated by the Quran and the Hadits.
I never said that I am a good Muslim, I am not, but I try at least. God knows.
My religion belongs only to me.
I was saying that there were taxes for the Muslims either. Not only for the Christians. But we are talking about 1300 years ago

Piro Ilir
09-08-15, 21:58
You don't know history.

Albanians were main Turkish allies in the Balkans. Muslim Albanian pashas, begs, fighters were active participants against Balkan Christians, and not only Balkan. For example attacker on the Vienna, Kara Mustafa Pasha was ethnic Albanian, but he and his troops 150,000 had hard defeat, big winner were Polish king John III Sobieski and Vienna's defenders.

Russia was against Serbia in II Balkan war, and in the side of Bulgaria. According plans Bulgaria wanted Vardar's Macedonia, even any Albanian territories and Aegean sea. Greece and Serbia were the only allies, but Greek/Serbian forces were prepared and more motivated.
When the Albanian lord Scanderbeg was trying to join his ally the Hunyadi, lord of Hungary, on the battlefield against the ottomans, the scanderbeg army was blocked by the Serb lord of the Serbian principality. The Serbs not allowed the scanderbeg to pass through the Serbian principality. The Serbs were among the allies of ottomans. They helped the ottomans against the Hungarians and against the Albanians. The sister of the Serb lord was the wife of sultan [emoji23] . Although all this Scanderbeg with his army destroyed the Serbs and passed through Serbia, but it was too late for the battle. The damage was done. The battle was won by the ottomans unfortunately.
Only during the end of the ottoman empire the Serbs forgot for their old allies. [emoji57] [emoji6]

Yetos
09-08-15, 22:48
Jesus, is the most important prophet of Koran. This is not mentioned today form the imams generally because of the politics. During the lifehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#22535891) of Prophet Mohammad christians and Hebrews were treated equally with the Muslims. ( by the standards of the time) . They were not discriminated. After the death of prophet, the four caliphs after him were elected. After the assassination of the last caliph imam Ali, the Caliphate became a monarchy. Since that time till today, there was not a real Caliphate, because the prophet said that the caliph should be elected.

come on

we all know history,

jews and christians had to pay a tax to live nearby the 'prophet'
and all non monotheists had to convert or die,
even today at 2015 Islam try to convert or kill the Yezidi via Daesh
They attack Yezidi at 2015 cause they are not monotheists in the 'land of prophet'
come on, face the truth once in your life,


QURAN 9:29

the people of the bible pay jizya with willing admision and they are subdued themshelves,
pay jizyah or cizye to be harac, harash a written license to live one year more,

we are not kids at an Albanian school

even at 1834 that tax existed, estimated +- 1200 years after the 'prophet' RIP

Yetos
09-08-15, 22:53
The mother of my friend was an orthodox. His two grand parents which raised him were orthodox. So I don't see why he should killed the orthodox.
Although Milosevic got jailed by the international court, so everything about him today is clear. There was no a possibility that anyone else from the Serbian government could made on kosova any cleansing. The situation throughout Yugoslavia ended better for the Serbs, trust me. There was the risk that Serbia to loose parts of her territory. They ended good. [emoji6]

I think you never worked for USA goverment, as you told us,
neithr you understand what is behind Kossovo case,
or you know and you hide it even from your shelf,
soon you will have to face it, and is not big Albania, it is something different,

Милан М.
09-08-15, 23:50
When the Albanian lord Scanderbeg was trying to join his ally the Hunyadi, lord of Hungary, on the battlefield against the ottomans, the scanderbeg army was blocked by the Serb lord of the Serbian principality. The Serbs not allowed the scanderbeg to pass through the Serbian principality. The Serbs were among the allies of ottomans. They helped the ottomans against the Hungarians and against the Albanians. The sister of the Serb lord was the wife of sultan [emoji23] . Although all this Scanderbeg with his army destroyed the Serbs and passed through Serbia, but it was too late for the battle. The damage was done. The battle was won by the ottomans unfortunately.
Only during the end of the ottoman empire the Serbs forgot for their old allies. [emoji57] [emoji6]
Scanderbeg was not even an Albanian,his mother Vojislava Tripalda a Slavic woman,only letter written by his father was on Cyrillic and Slavic language,in the absence of any kingdom,empire prior in the middle ages of Albanians he became a figure of Albanisation and the highest myth in the Albanian nation.

Piro Ilir
10-08-15, 13:12
come on

we all know history,

jews and christians had to pay a tax to live nearby the 'prophet'
and all non monotheists had to convert or die,
even today at 2015 Islam try to convert or kill the Yezidi via Daesh
They attack Yezidi at 2015 cause they are not monotheists in the 'land of prophet'
come on, face the truth once in your life,


QURAN 9:29

the people of the bible pay jizya with willing admision and they are subdued themshelves,
pay jizyah or cizye to be harac, harash a written license to live one year more,

we are not kids at an Albanian school

even at 1834 that tax existed, estimated +- 1200 years after the 'prophet' RIP
I don't see any connection between ISIS and the Prophet. Only you do. If you hate everything which is not Greek orthodox, that's your problem with the liberal democracy, certainly not mine.
Did Christians paid taxes on Europe to the state and to the church? Yes, too many taxes. Muslims and Christians paid taxes because they were citizens of the caliphate state. I don't see here anything for dispute.

Piro Ilir
10-08-15, 13:15
I think you never worked for USA goverment, as you told us,
neithr you understand what is behind Kossovo case,
or you know and you hide it even from your shelf,
soon you will have to face it, and is not big Albania, it is something different,
Can you elaborate more, and stop focusing on me. What is gonna happen, because I don't see anything. And stop with your theories of Islamic- fascist- terrorist- etc for the Albanians. [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] .

Piro Ilir
10-08-15, 13:25
Scanderbeg was not even an Albanian,his mother Vojislava Tripalda a Slavic woman,only letter written by his father was on Cyrillic and Slavic language,in the absence of any kingdom,empire prior in the middle ages of Albanians he became a figure of Albanisation and the highest myth in the Albanian nation.
What was he? Do you really believe that the Albanian nation or ethnicity exist, or it is a Hollywood invention [emoji23].
Denying everything about Albanians, even their existence, you are gonna lose even that small credit which remained on the Serb history. The descendents of noble family of scanderbeg his family line still lives in West Europe. They claim the Albanian continuity. They were among the Albanian renaissance and the best patriots. Go and ask the arbereshe of Italy. They still speak a pure Albanian language [emoji57] [emoji6]. You failed again.

Милан М.
10-08-15, 14:03
What was he? Do you really believe that the Albanian nation or ethnicity exist, or it is a Hollywood invention [emoji23].
Denying everything about Albanians, even their existence, you are gonna lose even that small credit which remained on the Serb history. The descendents of noble family of scanderbeg his family line still lives in West Europe. They claim the Albanian continuity. They were among the Albanian renaissance and the best patriots. Go and ask the arbereshe of Italy. They still speak a pure Albanian language [emoji57] [emoji6]. You failed again.
What am i denying isn't that true that his mother was Slavic woman,isn't true that letters found from his family were in Cyrillic and Slavic,plus he was figther for Christianity and Crusader not for Albania that's your myth is what i said,only in modern times he become Albanian hero,nobody claim him from Slavic people in the Balkans,we have more heroes then him from the middle ages,that is missing in Albanian history therefore you can have him,but can't stand the myths im sorry.

Piro Ilir
12-08-15, 13:51
What am i denying isn't that true that his mother was Slavic woman,isn't true that letters found from his family were in Cyrillic and Slavic,plus he was figther for Christianity and Crusader not for Albania that's your myth is what i said,only in modern times he become Albanian hero,nobody claim him from Slavic people in the Balkans,we have more heroes then him from the middle ages,that is missing in Albanian history therefore you can have him,but can't stand the myths im sorry.
In Albanian regions every one can find easy legends about scanderbeg. There are legends and tales about him. His figure was not invented during the modern time, but it was passed through the conscience of the people during the last 500 years till nowadays. He became a legend on the mountains of Albania. Kids were grown with his myth. This is easy to proof.
I don't see your point here. You mean scanderbeg was a Serb? I post you some of the most famous Albanian family lords of medieval of pre- ottomans invasion.

Progoni
Spata
Balshaj
Thopia
Arianiti
Spani
Dukagjini
Zenebishi
Kastrioti
Muzakaj
You are free to read about those people. It's proven they were all Albanians. Some of the lords of those families married foreigner wife. This happens all the time if you are a noble lord. The lords don't marry with peasants girls. The Cyrillic letters that might be found do not proof anything. We have the correspondence of scanderbeg with the Vatican. There is clear his ethnicity. He was one step before became the Lord of Albania, (king ) crowned by the Pope . Unfortunately the Pope died.
It is not important what was his mother. It is normal that the wife of gjon kastrioti (scanderbeg's father) was a foreigner. We don't have evidences about her ethnicity. Her name is not a proof

Garrick
12-08-15, 18:28
Can you elaborate more, and stop focusing on me. What is gonna happen, because I don't see anything. And stop with your theories of Islamic- fascist- terrorist- etc for the Albanians. [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] .

You started first. You use taqiyya and people all know about it.

Johannes
13-08-15, 02:28
Your country helped it being destroyed. Smashed it into pieces, killed our citizens and occupied it. At least there are still some decent people it the West that admit your involvment in this neo-nazi crime.
https://www.thetrumpet.com/literature/1706/germanys-conquest-of-the-balkans

Ike: I read some books on the History of the Serbs and took a graduate course on the History of the Balkans when I was getting my Masters in History. During the beginning of the Bosnian War I was pro Serb. I thought it was unfair that Albanians would claim the lands of the Old Serbia (Kosovo) for themselves (there should have been an agreement on ownership of the land). I also read about atrocities committed by Muslims and Croats. So the Serbs were not the only ones guilty of war crimes. BUT your Bosnian Serbians forces were stupid: when they were on top they showed on live TV Muslims being massacred!! How stupid and arrogant can the Serbs be? This was the reason why the West attacked and destroyed your military power. If the Serbs would have acted in a more intelligent and civilized manner you would have gained much more from the war that you did, but alas you were not up to it.

Piro Ilir
13-08-15, 13:00
You started first. You use taqiyya and people all know about it.
What is taqiyya? I am not aware of it. What am I suppose to use, according to you

Ike
13-08-15, 13:46
Ike: I read some books on the History of the Serbs and took a graduate course on the History of the Balkans when I was getting my Masters in History. During the beginning of the Bosnian War I was pro Serb. I thought it was unfair that Albanians would claim the lands of the Old Serbia (Kosovo) for themselves (there should have been an agreement on ownership of the land). I also read about atrocities committed by Muslims and Croats. So the Serbs were not the only ones guilty of war crimes. BUT your Bosnian Serbians forces were stupid: when they were on top they showed on live TV Muslims being massacred!! How stupid and arrogant can the Serbs be? This was the reason why the West attacked and destroyed your military power. If the Serbs would have acted in a more intelligent and civilized manner you would have gained much more from the war that you did, but alas you were not up to it.

1. Serbs never bragged with massacres on TV, live or not. I know cause I've watched their TV stations from time to time.

2. No, that was not the reason. NATO started this war, so that it could fight Serbs. If NATO had respected Yugoslav constitution, international law, and democratic choice of the people, there would have been no war.

2. I don't recall Serbs wanting much more, than which was rightfully theirs. All the way throughout the war their troops have been (https://inavukic.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/croatia-map-during-war.jpg) 30-40 km from Zagreb, with rockets and artillery up in the hills (behind Karlovac and Sisak), and Zagreb laying in front of them down in the plains. If they wanted to finish with it, they could have taken Zagreb in the matter of days. Now tell me, why didn't they do it? Same thing with Sarajevo. Do you even know how the sidge of Sarajevo looked like? And don't start with that stories about brave homeland defenders of Croatia and Bosnia. Everyone who has been in the military, knows, that this situation (https://ondercetin.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/sarajevo-survival-map-1992-96/) would have been over in less than 2h, if the Serb forces wanted to overtake Sarajevo. OMG, what am I saying.... Everyone who ever played a Risk game (http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2011/11/22/risk_wide-cc719ecd319f7c0173f221a7fa99be0eb4316e89.jpg?s=6), knows it.

Yetos
13-08-15, 20:44
What has to do Vallavan pasha on this discussion? Who was he?

hahahaha,

seems like you do not know your own heroes and fathers

Yetos
13-08-15, 20:46
What is taqiyya? I am not aware of it. What am I suppose to use, according to you

come on,
since you do not know,
you proved your shelf who and what you are

only Ottoman Turks did not pay it, and seems you are one of them,

Boreas
13-08-15, 21:50
come on,
since you do not know,
you proved your shelf who and what you are

only Ottoman Turks did not pay it, and seems you are one of them,

Is it something like Jizye tax? I know one taqiyya which is not related with paying.

Piro Ilir
14-08-15, 15:08
hahahaha,

seems like you do not know your own heroes and fathers
Who the hell is he? If he was my hero, I suppose to knew him. Maybe he is your hero.
Are you writing anything serious, or just irony. Is not my problem ,if you don't have any argument

Piro Ilir
14-08-15, 15:11
come on,
since you do not know,
you proved your shelf who and what you are

only Ottoman Turks did not pay it, and seems you are one of them,
So I am an ottoman? Those are your arguments? This is all you can try. I suppose to be 150 years old [emoji23]

Yetos
14-08-15, 22:06
No you don't be silly.
In kosova is a large Turkish minority. Now you are able to figure out who is an ethnic Albanian and who is a Turk by their appearance.[emoji57] Come on.

nop
they are the same

Gorgonzola
15-08-15, 17:59
nop
they are the same

This is weird. I was talking about something like this the other day. A friend of mine who had worked in Greece told me that some of his greek coworkers looked exactly like Turks and some others like slavs. I did agree in fact and i told him that in the islands, since i've been on vacation in Greece in some occasions, many greeks have got that brown middle eastern admixture.

Yetos
15-08-15, 20:14
This is weird. I was talking about something like this the other day. A friend of mine who had worked in Greece told me that some of his greek coworkers looked exactly like Turks and some others like slavs. I did agree in fact and i told him that in the islands, since i've been on vacation in Greece in some occasions, many greeks have got that brown middle eastern admixture.

the brown colour in hair and eyes, is found even in palaiolithic populations of Central Greece,
the brown colour is not only Greek marker, but a wider marker in Balkans and minor Asia,
it is certified that existed 6000 BC,
the colour that is missing in both palaiolithic and epipalaiolithic is blond,
blondism is rather new in Balkans

in fact palaiolithic people of Central Greece as rest balkans, were primary brown, with a bit darker skin,
red colour enter later with lighter skin
and blond is newest of all and maybe came with Romans Gauls and Slavs

Piro Ilir
16-08-15, 13:16
nop
they are the same
As already are the Greeks and the rest of the Mediterranean people.

Piro Ilir
16-08-15, 13:21
the brown colour in hair and eyes, is found even in palaiolithic populations of Central Greece,
the brown colour is not only Greek marker, but a wider marker in Balkans and minor Asia,
it is certified that existed 6000 BC,
the colour that is missing in both palaiolithic and epipalaiolithic is blond,
blondism is rather new in Balkans

in fact palaiolithic people of Central Greece as rest balkans, were primary brown, with a bit darker skin,
red colour enter later with lighter skin
and blond is newest of all and maybe came with Romans Gauls and Slavs
As we know Alexander the great was a blond hair man. I read that tracians were blond hair generally either.

Yetos
16-08-15, 16:18
As we know Alexander the great was a blond hair man. I read that tracians were blond hair generally either.
you are funny,
Is that a joke like the one with US embassy?How do you know? you spoke to a magician? or you have seen him

can you link me source?

Johannes
17-08-15, 23:15
1. Serbs never bragged with massacres on TV, live or not. I know cause I've watched their TV stations from time to time.

I did not say they "bragged." All I remember seeing is taking prisoners and then shooting them. Some video clips showed Muslim soldiers being executed and as well as civilians.

2. No, that was not the reason. NATO started this war, so that it could fight Serbs. If NATO had respected Yugoslav constitution, international law, and democratic choice of the people, there would have been no war.

All I remember is that the Croats and Bosnians chose to separate from the former Yugoslavia (Serbian controlled). I dont remember NATO attacking for no good reason. I also remember Serb forces attacking UN Peacekeeping forces in areas protecting Muslims and Croats. And Serb snipers blowing the heads off innocent Sarajevans on their way to the market or strolling in the park. Or deliberately shelling houses and attacking innocent towns and villages. I am sure Croats and Muslims committed similar crimes but international TV showed it was mostly done by Serbs. Maybe NATO blocked some of the Croat/Muslim atrocities from being shown on TV, but never the less the Serbs did a terrible public relations job.

2. I don't recall Serbs wanting much more, than which was rightfully theirs. All the way throughout the war their troops have been (https://inavukic.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/croatia-map-during-war.jpg) 30-40 km from Zagreb, with rockets and artillery up in the hills (behind Karlovac and Sisak), and Zagreb laying in front of them down in the plains. If they wanted to finish with it, they could have taken Zagreb in the matter of days. Now tell me, why didn't they do it? Same thing with Sarajevo. Do you even know how the sidge of Sarajevo looked like? And don't start with that stories about brave homeland defenders of Croatia and Bosnia. Everyone who has been in the military, knows, that this situation (https://ondercetin.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/sarajevo-survival-map-1992-96/) would have been over in less than 2h, if the Serb forces wanted to overtake Sarajevo.

Perhaps the Serbs did not want to take Zagreb because this would have case NATO to invade and attack Serbian forces??? Besides Croatia was not part of Greater Serbia. It was Bosnia and Kosovo.

Johannes
17-08-15, 23:16
1. Serbs never bragged with massacres on TV, live or not. I know cause I've watched their TV stations from time to time.

I did not say they "bragged." All I remember seeing is taking prisoners and then shooting them. Some video clips showed Muslim soldiers being executed and others civilians.

Johannes
17-08-15, 23:17
[QUOTE=Ike;464472]1. Serbs never bragged with massacres on TV, live or not. I know cause I've watched their TV stations from time to time.QUOTE]

I did not say they "bragged." All I remember seeing is taking prisoners and then shooting them. Some video clips showed Muslim soldiers being executed and others civilians.

Ike
18-08-15, 04:58
@Johannes

1. Serbs never bragged with massacres on TV, live or not. I know cause I've watched their TV stations from time to time.

I did not say they "bragged." All I remember seeing is taking prisoners and then shooting them. Some video clips showed Muslim soldiers being executed and as well as civilians.

Yes, the famous tape leaked out in 2005, about one paramilitary unit killing tied up men. The tape caused an uproar in Serbia and the actions were condemned by many politicians. Several members of the unit were quickly arrested. But that was a lot after, and has nothing to do with NATO attacks on Yugoslavia in 1995. and 1999. Both NATO and Russians must have known everything that happened here, disregarding it being recorded on VHS or not, so I don't take it that Serbs were bombed just because of TV shows.



2. No, that was not the reason. NATO started this war, so that it could fight Serbs. If NATO had respected Yugoslav constitution, international law, and democratic choice of the people, there would have been no war.

All I remember is that the Croats and Bosnians chose to separate from the former Yugoslavia (Serbian controlled). I dont remember NATO attacking for no good reason. I also remember Serb forces attacking UN Peacekeeping forces in areas protecting Muslims and Croats. And Serb snipers blowing the heads off innocent Sarajevans on their way to the market or strolling in the park. Or deliberately shelling houses and attacking innocent towns and villages. I am sure Croats and Muslims committed similar crimes but international TV showed it was mostly done by Serbs. Maybe NATO blocked some of the Croat/Muslim atrocities from being shown on TV, but never the less the Serbs did a terrible public relations job.

No, they did not choose to separate from Yugoslavia. They choose to separate the territory of Socialistic Republic of Croatia and Socialistic Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was the problem. If the Croats or Bosniaks decided to leave nobody would stop them. Take a good look at this map, and tell me how is it logical for Bosniaks to separate the whole territory of Bosnia, when they were minority in Bosnia? (map (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina#/media/File:BiH_-_ES_N_1991_1.gif))


Maybe the PR job was poorly done by Serbians, but that doesn't give NATO and EU an excuse for the atrocities done. In fact, I don't believe that western politicians knew what the situation was, but were forced to do wrong because of the pressure of the misinformed citizens. I think they encouraged the media spreading misinformations, because it served their goals.



3. I don't recall Serbs wanting much more, than which was rightfully theirs. All the way throughout the war their troops have been (https://inavukic.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/croatia-map-during-war.jpg) 30-40 km from Zagreb, with rockets and artillery up in the hills (behind Karlovac and Sisak), and Zagreb laying in front of them down in the plains. If they wanted to finish with it, they could have taken Zagreb in the matter of days. Now tell me, why didn't they do it? Same thing with Sarajevo. Do you even know how the sidge of Sarajevo looked like? And don't start with that stories about brave homeland defenders of Croatia and Bosnia. Everyone who has been in the military, knows, that this situation (https://ondercetin.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/sarajevo-survival-map-1992-96/) would have been over in less than 2h, if the Serb forces wanted to overtake Sarajevo.

Perhaps the Serbs did not want to take Zagreb because this would have case NATO to invade and attack Serbian forces??? Besides Croatia was not part of Greater Serbia. It was Bosnia and Kosovo.

You're misinformed about this one.
a. Serbs didn't want Zagreb because there are no Serbs in that area. If they wanted to control it, they would have done it during Yugoslavia, when they could have legitimately use JNA against Croatian terrorists which were not yet armed good enough. In 1990. Serbians had bigger problems, and they just wanted to get rid of burden of Slovenia and Croatia. Next thing, NATO would certainly not step in. They didn't even have guts to step in 1999. when it was Serbia only. Kissinger is explaining (here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV1qdmIRXJA&feature=youtu.be&t=4m28s) and here (https://youtu.be/7ZPAV5vufCc?t=4m31s)) that they didn't want to step in with ground forces in Bosnia in 1994, and I'm sure that they would step in against JNA in 1990.

b. No, Kosovo has nothing to do with Greater Serbia, it was integral part of Serbia, even before Yugoslavia, and before Serbia became a kingdom. This war was obviously not about Greater Serbia. There were proponents of that idea, but there were no military acspiration of Serbian forces outside of territories inhabited by Serbs. Large part of Croatia is a part of Greater Serbia. You should listen to that whole Kissinger interviews to get a better grasp of what is going on. It's just 25 mins, but very informative.


P.S. This is getting totally OT, and if you wish to reply it would be better on PM. I should have done that with this message ...

Piro Ilir
18-08-15, 13:07
you are funny,
Is that a joke like the one with US embassy?How do you know? you spoke to a magician? or you have seen him

can you link me source?

I read a book about his life. There was clearly described as blonde hair. Likewise the Macedonians. You have his mosaic, and there is in blonde hair. Of course this is not 100% true. We are talking about 2300 years ago.
About US embassy, I was just making sandwiches, as you said firstly.

Yetos
18-08-15, 17:26
I read a bookhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#44891439) about his life. There was clearly described as blonde hair. Likewise the Macedonians. You have his mosaic, and there is in blonde hair. Of course this is not 100% true. We are talking about 2300 years ago.
About US embassy, I was just making sandwiches, as you said firstly.

you read wrong books
only one ancient writer describe Alexandros and he say ΞΑΝΘΙΖΕΙΝ meaning towards blond, not blond,
it the light brown colour

and in mosaic sometimes he is red sometimes dark,

Piro Ilir
21-08-15, 16:27
you read wrong books
only one ancient writer describe Alexandros and he say ΞΑΝΘΙΖΕΙΝ meaning towards blond, not blond,
it the light brown colour

and in mosaic sometimes he is red sometimes dark,
Yes I always read wrong books and you read the right books. Between brown and blonde or light brown, means the colour of the dinarics people. But I don't think his hairs proofs anything .

Yetos
23-08-15, 23:19
You know that your assertion is partly false. Is coming to be an attitude for you. Albanian language has words with origin by archaic Latin and archaic north West Greek dialect. Romanian has not. Which means the Romanian language was formed later. It was formed by latinized tracians and yllirians. Probably Greeks either. The church Albanian vocabulary also shows a very earlier Christian adherence, prior Byzantine empire.

Blah Blah Blah

Albanian Propaganda, BUT

Big Kossova is coming,
then you will say different things, and change your avatar,

time to drop your mask

Piro Ilir
24-08-15, 15:54
Yes,it was connected with the sardinian I2.
How many I2 samples were found on ancient tracian territory? And do we have found any I2 from the modern population throughout Balkans connected with those samples of ancient trace?

Piro Ilir
26-08-15, 13:38
Already discussed in #355 and has nothing to do with the subject.
During that period the Serbs were allied of Turks. They already married with them.

Piro Ilir
26-08-15, 13:48
E-V13 is a very minor part of illyrians ...less than 10%...................how can you claim anything with less than 10% ?

Vudecol culture is know as proto-illyrian culture and it is in modern Bosnia and since I2a is the bulk of Bosnian people we can assume I2a has far greater chance to be Illyrian than E-v13, don't you agree?
Ev13 is pre illyrian. It's pre IE probably. IE people came to Balkans and after mixing with locals formed the illyrians. The IE came to Balkans during the late neothilic or early bronze age. Ev13 is one of the proofs that Albanians evolved from one of the most ancient people of the Balkans.

Piro Ilir
26-08-15, 13:58
But as far as we know Illyrians were probably not in Balkan in times of E-V13. Why do you think that Illyrians who came down to Balkan were also E-V13?
If they were E-V13 and not related to Greeks (as we know from Greek writings), how come we have so much E-V13 in southern Balkan? What happened so that whole Illyrian tribes moved from Dinaric mountains towards Bulgaria, Greece and Crete?

We still don't know who Illyrians were for sure, so guessing about their connection with any of today's nationalities or ethnicities seems futile. Maybe Albanians were here before the Illyrians, maybe they were Illyrians, maybe they came here after Illyrians perished, etc. No point in involving Albanians in this discussion.
Yllirians didn't came from the north. You are completely wrong. They were proto yllirians. Yllirians were formed afterward. Proto yllirians mixed with locals and formed the yllirians. Probably the same happened with the hellenes.
Proto yllirians carried the R1 and I2. The yllirians carried the R1,I2,ev13, J2, etc . But yllirians were spread onto a large area and many tribes. So the percentage of the DNA among them was different.

Piro Ilir
26-08-15, 14:02
E-V13 is still a strange story in Balkans,

if we connect with the research of Italians searches,
then is palaiolithic/neolithic >7ky and its primary spot is modern central-west Bulgaria, (combination of E-v13 +PC1)

if we connect it with migrations from levant and minor Asia then is surely shorter than <4ky in Balkans and expand from Greece

we can not connect V-13 with IE,
meaning that true GREEKS THRACIANS ILLYRIANS had no V-13,
but either lived together, either they accept it later,

WE CAN NOT CONNECT ANY IE POPULATIONS WITH E-V13
meaning that E-V13 existed in Balkans before IE arrival,
or E-V13 came at late bronze age, (could be combined with tin bronze)
so E-V13 has nothing to do with proto-Thracians, proto-Greeks, Proto-Illyrians etc
but is a mark of Balkans and around generally,

E-v13 is not a mark of Albanians, neither a mark of Greeks, neither a mark of Bulgarians, neither a mark of Serbs,
all these found V-13 when they came, or accept it when it came,
He is saying that ev13 was part of the yllirian DNA. But of course yllirians didn't carry only Ev13 .

Piro Ilir
26-08-15, 14:14
since at this present time ( today ) Harvard univ. is genotyping the R1b found of the Vudecol culture, which is proto-illyrian culture , we can safely say that whatever branch this R1b is , it will be known as an illyrian marker.
Do you listening your self? Illyrians were spread from North Yugoslavia further south throughout the epirus. There was a huge territory with many yllirian tribes, and with many other tribes, non yllirian. There was not only one line of DNA. So you think that all the yllirians were R1b ?

Ike
26-08-15, 14:30
Perhaps they were chased by Slavs

If you start with the idea that E-V13 was the major Illyrian marker, and you see the current distribution of E-V13 it looks like there had to be a major Illyrian migration that must have been mentioned by Byzantine historians.


During that period the Serbs were allied of Turks. They already married with them.
I've already explained, but you seem not to understand what I'm saying.


Yllirians didn't came from the north. You are completely wrong. They were proto yllirians. Yllirians were formed afterward. Proto yllirians mixed with locals and formed the yllirians. Probably the same happened with the hellenes.
Proto yllirians carried the R1 and I2. The yllirians carried the R1,I2,ev13, J2, etc . But yllirians were spread onto a large area and many tribes. So the percentage of the DNA among them was different.

Really, completely wrong? OK. Call it what you like, as long as we all know we talk about the same thing.

7402



Ev13 is pre illyrian. It's pre IE probably. IE people came to Balkans and after mixing with locals formed the illyrians. The IE came to Balkans during the late neothilic or early bronze age. Ev13 is one of the proofs that Albanians evolved from one of the most ancient people of the Balkans.

They probably couldn't have evolved from E-V13 because E-V13 was non-IE, unlike Albanians. E-V13 entered Albanian gene pool as an outsider. What was it before - Pelasgian, Illyrian, Thracian, Dorian, Slavic, etc, will be determined in the future, hopefully.

Милан М.
26-08-15, 17:38
During that period the Serbs were allied of Turks. They already married with them.
You seem not to distinguish "allies' among other things,some of the Brankovic dynasty indeed fought some battles on their side,why was that cause Hungarians looted his wealth and try to siege control over entire Serbia with the Crusades and papacy,Serbia at that time was despotate enjoying at least some freedom,which could loose it along their culture,some other lords of Serb descend fought on other side,so it's hypothetical,French were "allies" of Ottomans bound by treaty ever since Sultan Suleiman.Britain,French fought against Russia with the Ottomans when Russian empire almost annihilate them and gave rise and help to modern Turkey,in which Crimean war we provided soldiers for the Russians.Germans with Ottomans,numerous other examples.Serbs,Bulgars,Greeks expelled them from Europe in the Balkan wars,while not all were happy about it,speacialy not you Albanians at that time,Byzantines brought them in Europe for first time they step foot in Thrace with their help as "allies" perhaps,everything is hypothetical regardless situation,but you can repeat this over and over if make you happy.Ottomans were empire like any other only with Muslim customs and law nothing weird there,Serbs at least fought battles alone and on Kosovo killed their Sultan,which stop their expansion for a while,but we lacked soldiers unlike Muslims they had them many in Mid East and Anatolia,Kosovo battle which triggered the fall of Serbia; Tactically inconclusive,Mutual heavy losses—devastating for the less numerous Serbs,Casualties and losses,Ottomans;Sultan Murad I and most of the troops.Serbs;Prince Lazar and most of the troops,
Strategic Ottoman victory,among many other Serbo-Turkish wars.

Johannes
27-08-15, 03:19
@Johannes

1. Serbs never bragged with massacres on TV, live or not. I know cause I've watched their TV stations from time to time.

I did not say they "bragged." All I remember seeing is taking prisoners and then shooting them. Some video clips showed Muslim soldiers being executed and as well as civilians.

Yes, the famous tape leaked out in 2005, about one paramilitary unit killing tied up men. The tape caused an uproar in Serbia and the actions were condemned by many politicians. Several members of the unit were quickly arrested. But that was a lot after, and has nothing to do with NATO attacks on Yugoslavia in 1995. and 1999. Both NATO and Russians must have known everything that happened here, disregarding it being recorded on VHS or not, so I don't take it that Serbs were bombed just because of TV shows.



2. No, that was not the reason. NATO started this war, so that it could fight Serbs. If NATO had respected Yugoslav constitution, international law, and democratic choice of the people, there would have been no war.

All I remember is that the Croats and Bosnians chose to separate from the former Yugoslavia (Serbian controlled). I dont remember NATO attacking for no good reason. I also remember Serb forces attacking UN Peacekeeping forces in areas protecting Muslims and Croats. And Serb snipers blowing the heads off innocent Sarajevans on their way to the market or strolling in the park. Or deliberately shelling houses and attacking innocent towns and villages. I am sure Croats and Muslims committed similar crimes but international TV showed it was mostly done by Serbs. Maybe NATO blocked some of the Croat/Muslim atrocities from being shown on TV, but never the less the Serbs did a terrible public relations job.

No, they did not choose to separate from Yugoslavia. They choose to separate the territory of Socialistic Republic of Croatia and Socialistic Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was the problem. If the Croats or Bosniaks decided to leave nobody would stop them. Take a good look at this map, and tell me how is it logical for Bosniaks to separate the whole territory of Bosnia, when they were minority in Bosnia? (map (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina#/media/File:BiH_-_ES_N_1991_1.gif))


Maybe the PR job was poorly done by Serbians, but that doesn't give NATO and EU an excuse for the atrocities done. In fact, I don't believe that western politicians knew what the situation was, but were forced to do wrong because of the pressure of the misinformed citizens. I think they encouraged the media spreading misinformations, because it served their goals.



3. I don't recall Serbs wanting much more, than which was rightfully theirs. All the way throughout the war their troops have been (https://inavukic.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/croatia-map-during-war.jpg) 30-40 km from Zagreb, with rockets and artillery up in the hills (behind Karlovac and Sisak), and Zagreb laying in front of them down in the plains. If they wanted to finish with it, they could have taken Zagreb in the matter of days. Now tell me, why didn't they do it? Same thing with Sarajevo. Do you even know how the sidge of Sarajevo looked like? And don't start with that stories about brave homeland defenders of Croatia and Bosnia. Everyone who has been in the military, knows, that this situation (https://ondercetin.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/sarajevo-survival-map-1992-96/) would have been over in less than 2h, if the Serb forces wanted to overtake Sarajevo.

Perhaps the Serbs did not want to take Zagreb because this would have case NATO to invade and attack Serbian forces??? Besides Croatia was not part of Greater Serbia. It was Bosnia and Kosovo.

You're misinformed about this one.
a. Serbs didn't want Zagreb because there are no Serbs in that area. If they wanted to control it, they would have done it during Yugoslavia, when they could have legitimately use JNA against Croatian terrorists which were not yet armed good enough. In 1990. Serbians had bigger problems, and they just wanted to get rid of burden of Slovenia and Croatia. Next thing, NATO would certainly not step in. They didn't even have guts to step in 1999. when it was Serbia only. Kissinger is explaining (here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV1qdmIRXJA&feature=youtu.be&t=4m28s) and here (https://youtu.be/7ZPAV5vufCc?t=4m31s)) that they didn't want to step in with ground forces in Bosnia in 1994, and I'm sure that they would step in against JNA in 1990.

b. No, Kosovo has nothing to do with Greater Serbia, it was integral part of Serbia, even before Yugoslavia, and before Serbia became a kingdom. This war was obviously not about Greater Serbia. There were proponents of that idea, but there were no military acspiration of Serbian forces outside of territories inhabited by Serbs. Large part of Croatia is a part of Greater Serbia. You should listen to that whole Kissinger interviews to get a better grasp of what is going on. It's just 25 mins, but very informative.


P.S. This is getting totally OT, and if you wish to reply it would be better on PM. I should have done that with this message ...

You are definitely more knowledgeable than me about your history. I only read two books on Balkan History and one on the History of the Serbs (I have always been a supporter of the Serbs because they resisted the Turks). As for the answers:

1. You are right. That video was probably released much later to support the arrests of the Serb generals and politicians. The media almost always distorts reality.

2. I always thought (even when I took a Balkan History class during my graduate studies in the late 1990's) that it would be impossible to separate the Bosniaks (Croats OK) from the Serbs and they were so mixed up! But do you think that Bosnia was/is only Serb territory??? Maybe that is the reason why NATO decided to go against Serbia because they wanted to take the whole area and ethnically cleanse it? No doubt at the beginning the Serbs were looked at as the aggressors. So yes, your PR was messed up and the media took advantage of your country's mistakes. The media is a monster that does not have any morals: It only worships the altar of money.

3. OK but there were very small number of Serbs in Kosovo. So why did the Serbs wanted to ethnically cleanse the territory of Albanians?

Ike
27-08-15, 05:13
I always thought (even when I took a Balkan History class during my graduate studies in the late 1990's) that it would be impossible to separate the Bosniaks (Croats OK) from the Serbs and they were so mixed up! But do you think that Bosnia was/is only Serb territory??? Maybe that is the reason why NATO decided to go against Serbia because they wanted to take the whole area and ethnically cleanse it? No doubt at the beginning the Serbs were looked at as the aggressors. So yes, your PR was messed up and the media took advantage of your country's mistakes. The media is a monster that does not have any morals: It only worships the altar of money.

Off course it was not only Serbian territory.

The problem, from the very beginning is that Serbians were by far most numerous ethnicity inside Yugoslavia. In 1943. communists divided the majority of Serb population into 4 republics (and latter added 2 autonomous regions). There are stories that the whole idea behind that was to disunite Serb population, so that new state wouldn't be Serb dominated like Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes was. Disregarding motives and if they are true, Serbs ended ethnically divided into many administrative zones. When the Warsaw pact and Soviet Union dissolved, the power balance between East and West (on which Yugoslavia relied) was gone. Some nationalities (Slovenes and Croats for start) started questioning their position, and new parties claimed that they would be better off outside Yugoslavia. On the other hand, Serbs would also be better off outside Yugoslavia, but they were in a stupid position, because if Republic of Serbia separated from Yugoslavia, there would still be a large part of Serbs left inside Yugoslavia. So, Serbia had no national interest to secede from Yugoslavia. That was the main reason why moderate Serbian politicians were favouring Yugoslavia.

Considering Bosnia, if you look at the war maps, you can see that in a small amount of time since the war broke out, the front lines were cemented and the didn't move much until the end of the war. These are the mapes from 1992:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Map_of_war_in_Yugoslavia,_1992.png

And this is the ethnic structure of the region:
http://www.rastko.rs/istorija/srbi-balkan/img/fry4b.jpg

You see that they correlate very well with one another:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyoWem9Nvsc


So, if you think there was an aggressive war here, it wasn't. Nobody did conquer much of the "enemy" territory during the whole Yugoslav war. It was just a stalemate, going nowhere from the beginning. Croats and Bosniaks had no power to do it, and Serbs had no interest in Croat and Bosniak territory. Once only peasants (unlike Muslim craftsmen, merchants, officials, penman, etc) Serbs (who were ~40% of population) had in their legal possession <60% of Bosnian territory, while Muslims were mostly populating urban areas. That's why Serbs were pretty much satisfied with what they had even before the was started.

The whole Serbian idea was that Croats and Bosniaks can secede from Yugoslavia, but they cannot drag Serbians with them. If they want to secede they can do it democratically, and they can secede Croatian and Bosniak people, but they cannot secede administrative zones of Socialistic Republic of Croatia and Socialistic Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. On the other hand Croats and Bosniaks wanted to secede Croatia and Bosnia because that way they'd be getting more than they deserve. And that's how the war broke out. Western countries didn't do any good. They talked Bosnians 2 times into not accepting peace plans, as I've already posted somewhere.

First time in 1992. for Carrington-Cutiliero plan:

"On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Serbs and Mate Boban for the Croats.
On 28 March 1992, after a meeting with US ambassador to Yugoslavia Warren Zimmermann in Sarajevo, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any division of Bosnia."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_...Cutileiro_plan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_plans_offered_before_and_during_the_Bosnian_ War#Carrington.E2.80.93Cutileiro_plan)


Second time in 1995, when Owen-Stoltenberg plan was in question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUuh...youtu.be&t=25m (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUuhSGnLvv8&feature=youtu.be&t=25m)


Badinter commission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitration_Commission_of_the_Peace_Conference_on_ Yugoslavia) concluded they they recognize the borders of republics as state borders. That literally means that they gave advantage to some map lines that 7 communists have drawn in the middle of the winter of 1943. in some Bosnian hut, over democracy and will of the people. The decisions of that commission were illegitimate, illegal, contrary to Yugoslav constitution and international law.







OK but there were very small number of Serbs in Kosovo. So why did the Serbs wanted to ethnically cleanse the territory of Albanians?
They didn't want to cleanse it. If anything, the number of Albanians only rose during while Kosovo was under Serbian government. From ~500.000 in 1948. to ~1.600.000 in 1991.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#Ethnic_groups


Some claim that Serbians started ethnic cleansing during the NATO bombing. Serbians themselves claim, that Albanians fled from NATO bombing, for which they have some arguments in the fact that not a small number of Albanians looked for salvation in other parts of Yugoslavia controlled by Serbian army. Nevertheless, ethnic cleansing definitely started after the NATO's war to stop ethnic cleansing.

This is the report of OSCE observer who was on Kosovo:
"With the reversal of power, the 800,000 Kosovar refugees, created by the war, returned, supporting the KLA's policy of reverse intimidation and atrocities. This all but ethnically cleansed the majority of the 270,000 Kosovo Serbs and other minorities from the province."
http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/rkeith.htm


This is what lord Carrington says:
"Nato bombing of Serbia caused, rather than prevented, ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, the organisation's former secretary general, Lord Carrington, said today.The bombing "made things very much worse" and the European Union had made "catastrophically stupid decisions" in its dealings with the former Yugoslavia, he added."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/aug/27/balkans

Piro Ilir
27-08-15, 19:49
Off course it was not only Serbian territory.

The problem, from the very beginning is that Serbians were by far most numerous ethnicity inside Yugoslavia. In 1943. communists divided the majority of Serb population into 4 republics (and latter added 2 autonomous regions). There are stories that the whole idea behind that was to disunite Serb population, so that new state wouldn't be Serb dominated like Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes was. Disregarding motives and if they are true, Serbs ended ethnically divided into many administrative zones. When the Warsaw pact and Soviet Union dissolved, the power balance between East and West (on which Yugoslavia relied) was gone. Some nationalities (Slovenes and Croats for start) started questioning their position, and new parties claimed that they would be better off outside Yugoslavia. On the other hand, Serbs would also be better off outside Yugoslavia, but they were in a stupid position, because if Republic of Serbia separated from Yugoslavia, there would still be a large part of Serbs left inside Yugoslavia. So, Serbia had no national interest to secede from Yugoslavia. That was the main reason why moderate Serbian politicians were favouring Yugoslavia.

Considering Bosnia, if you look at the war maps, you can see that in a small amount of time since the war broke out, the front lines were cemented and the didn't move much until the end of the war. These are the mapes from 1992:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Map_of_war_in_Yugoslavia,_1992.png

And this is the ethnic structure of the region:
http://www.rastko.rs/istorija/srbi-balkan/img/fry4b.jpg

You see that they correlate very well with one another:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyoWem9Nvsc


So, if you think there was an aggressive war here, it wasn't. Nobody did conquer much of the "enemy" territory during the whole Yugoslav war. It was just a stalemate, going nowhere from the beginning. Croats and Bosniaks had no power to do it, and Serbs had no interest in Croat and Bosniak territory. Once only peasants (unlike Muslim craftsmen, merchants, officials, penman, etc) Serbs (who were ~40% of population) had in their legal possession <60% of Bosnian territory, while Muslims were mostly populating urban areas. That's why Serbs were pretty much satisfied with what they had even before the was started.

The whole Serbian idea was that Croats and Bosniaks can secede from Yugoslavia, but they cannot drag Serbians with them. If they want to secede they can do it democratically, and they can secede Croatian and Bosniak people, but they cannot secede administrative zones of Socialistic Republic of Croatia and Socialistic Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. On the other hand Croats and Bosniaks wanted to secede Croatia and Bosnia because that way they'd be getting more than they deserve. And that's how the war broke out. Western countries didn't do any good. They talked Bosnians 2 times into not accepting peace plans, as I've already posted somewhere.

First time in 1992. for Carrington-Cutiliero plan:

"On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Serbs and Mate Boban for the Croats.
On 28 March 1992, after a meeting with US ambassador to Yugoslavia Warren Zimmermann in Sarajevo, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any division of Bosnia."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_...Cutileiro_plan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_plans_offered_before_and_during_the_Bosnian_ War#Carrington.E2.80.93Cutileiro_plan)


Second time in 1995, when Owen-Stoltenberg plan was in question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUuh...youtu.be&t=25m (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUuhSGnLvv8&feature=youtu.be&t=25m)


Badinter commission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitration_Commission_of_the_Peace_Conference_on_ Yugoslavia) concluded they they recognize the borders of republics as state borders. That literally means that they gave advantage to some map lines that 7 communists have drawn in the middle of the winter of 1943. in some Bosnian hut, over democracy and will of the people. The decisions of that commission were illegitimate, illegal, contrary to Yugoslav constitution and international law.







They didn't want to cleanse it. If anything, the number of Albanians only rose during while Kosovo was under Serbian government. From ~500.000 in 1948. to ~1.600.000 in 1991.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#Ethnic_groups


Some claim that Serbians started ethnic cleansing during the NATO bombing. Serbians themselves claim, that Albanians fled from NATO bombing, for which they have some arguments in the fact that not a small number of Albanians looked for salvation in other parts of Yugoslavia controlled by Serbian army. Nevertheless, ethnic cleansing definitely started after the NATO's war to stop ethnic cleansing.

This is the report of OSCE observer who was on Kosovo:
"With the reversal of power, the 800,000 Kosovar refugees, created by the war, returned, supporting the KLA's policy of reverse intimidation and atrocities. This all but ethnically cleansed the majority of the 270,000 Kosovo Serbs and other minorities from the province."
http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/rkeith.htm


This is what lord Carrington says:
"Nato bombing of Serbia caused, rather than prevented, ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, the organisation's former secretary general, Lord Carrington, said today.The bombing "made things very much worse" and the European Union had made "catastrophically stupid decisions" in its dealings with the former Yugoslavia, he added."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/aug/27/balkans
What about the massacre of Recak. Or it was a media's fabrication?!

Piro Ilir
27-08-15, 19:57
You seem not to distinguish "allies' among other things,some of the Brankovic dynasty indeed fought some battles on their side,why was that cause Hungarians looted his wealth and try to siege control over entire Serbia with the Crusades and papacy,Serbia at that time was despotate enjoying at least some freedom,which could loose it along their culture,some other lords of Serb descend fought on other side,so it's hypothetical,French were "allies" of Ottomans bound by treaty ever since Sultan Suleiman.Britain,French fought against Russia with the Ottomans when Russian empire almost annihilate them and gave rise and help to modern Turkey,in which Crimean war we provided soldiers for the Russians.Germans with Ottomans,numerous other examples.Serbs,Bulgars,Greeks expelled them from Europe in the Balkan wars,while not all were happy about it,speacialy not you Albanians at that time,Byzantines brought them in Europe for first time they step foot in Thrace with their help as "allies" perhaps,everything is hypothetical regardless situation,but you can repeat this over and over if make you happy.Ottomans were empire like any other only with Muslim customs and law nothing weird there,Serbs at least fought battles alone and on Kosovo killed their Sultan,which stop their expansion for a while,but we lacked soldiers unlike Muslims they had them many in Mid East and Anatolia,Kosovo battle which triggered the fall of Serbia; Tactically inconclusive,Mutual heavy losses—devastating for the less numerous Serbs,Casualties and losses,Ottomans;Sultan Murad I and most of the troops.Serbs;Prince Lazar and most of the troops,
Strategic Ottoman victory,among many other Serbo-Turkish wars.
The only reason for which the Albanians were sad was that Serbia and Greece invaded their territory where they were living. Why they would care about the ottomans. They destroyed Albania, and sold their ethnic territory when it was in their interests.

Yetos
27-08-15, 20:24
The only reason for which the Albanians were sad was that Serbia and Greece invaded their territory where they were living. Why they would care about the ottomans. They destroyed Albania, and sold their ethnic territory when it was in their interests.

and as you left last the Ottoman empire,
now you want to restore it,
but Big Kossova is coming, ahahahaha

Ike
27-08-15, 23:19
What about the massacre of Recak. Or it was a media's fabrication?!

The killings were not a fabrication, but we still have no knowledge of who conducted them. Facts stand that:



1. Serbs themselves called for journalists to monitor the operation in Racak

"If the Serbs had been planning a bloody massacre that day, why had they issued a press release in Pristina that morning, inviting journalists to come to Racak to cover the police operation?"
https://theremustbejustice.wordpress.com/2013/04/02/how-the-road-to-racak-was-renamed-to-william-walker-road/



2. William Walker suppressing the pretext

"These internal KVM documents also showed that William Walker tried to suppress reports that the KLA had kidnapped MUP and VJ personnel serving in the Racak area. The documents showed that Walker was furious at the KVM staff when word reached Washington that the kidnappings had occurred."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-1999-racak-massacre-kla-had-been-planning-to-fabricate-serbian-crimes/1836



3. There was no bodies at the beginning

The pathologists found only six bodies had suffered a single gunshot wound, with most being covered in multiple wounds. The trajectories showed the bullets coming from many different angles and elevations. Very few of the dead appeared to have been shot at close range. And in contrast to the claims by Walker, no evidence of deliberate disfigurement of the bodies was found.
These findings would tend to support those eyewitnesses who reported that there had been violent clashes between Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) forces and Serbian units near Racak the day before the bodies were found, and that the dead may have been killed in this firefight. OSCE observers and journalists who visited the village immediately after the fighting did not report finding any signs of a massacre and the 40 bodies were only discovered some 12 hours later.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2001/02/yugo-f12.html




4. Bodies were tempered with

As seen here on the photos, Albanian white cap was added later (warning - explicit photos):
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/pv020703.htm



5. William Walker pressuring forensics to alter the report

“she further explained Walker insisted she should tell the media that Serbs have committed a massacre in the village of Racak, and that the killed were not combatants, but “innocent civilians”.
http://de-construct.net/e-zine/?p=3451

“What angered him most was that I refused to use the word massacre and say who stood behind what happened in Račak. He was terribly angry about that. He threw a pencil at me,“ Ranta recalls.
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes.php?yyyy=2008&mm=10&dd=23&nav_id=54430


"In October 2008, Helena Ranta, the Finnish pathologist who had conducted the forensic examination on the Račak casualties, stated that she had been pressured to modify the contents of her report, both by the Finnish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and by William Walker, the head of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) Kosovo Verification Mission, in order to make more explicit the role of Yugoslav troops in the incident. She refused to do so."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C4%8Dak_massacre#Forensic_reports





From all this we can conclude the William Walker, who was OSCE chief in Kosovo is a manipulant and cannot be trusted. He tempered with the evidence and investigation and I don't think we will ever find out what really happened in Racak, and who killed those men. I'm not saying that Serbians didn't do it for sure, but everything suggest that it was a CIA hoax.

Piro Ilir
28-08-15, 15:17
Blah Blah Blah

Albanian Propaganda, BUT

Big Kossova is coming,
then you will say different things, and change your avatar,

time to drop your mask
What big kosova? It's time for you to tell us . You are making all the time conspiracy stories. And what avatar I am suppose to put there according to you?

Piro Ilir
28-08-15, 15:31
If you start with the idea that E-V13 was the major Illyrian marker, and you see the current distribution of E-V13 it looks like there had to be a major Illyrian migration that must have been mentioned by Byzantine historians.


I've already explained, but you seem not to understand what I'm saying.



Really, completely wrong? OK. Call it what you like, as long as we all know we talk about the same thing.

7402




They probably couldn't have evolved from E-V13 because E-V13 was non-IE, unlike Albanians. E-V13 entered Albanian gene pool as an outsider. What was it before - Pelasgian, Illyrian, Thracian, Dorian, Slavic, etc, will be determined in the future, hopefully.

You are missing everything. Yllirians were formed on the Balkans from the mix of locals who probably were not IE (ev13 ,J2b, G2,I2) . R1 came throughout Balkans with the IE migration. IE plus locals formed the illyrians. People evolve. Albanian and Serbs are both IE, but proto Albanians came to Balkans earlier then the proto Serbs, hence Albanians have more pre- IE DNA. Who has more pre IE DNA indicates the time of settling on Balkans.

Piro Ilir
28-08-15, 15:43
Off course it was not only Serbian territory.

The problem, from the very beginning is that Serbians were by far most numerous ethnicity inside Yugoslavia. In 1943. communists divided the majority of Serb population into 4 republics (and latter added 2 autonomous regions). There are stories that the whole idea behind that was to disunite Serb population, so that new state wouldn't be Serb dominated like Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes was. Disregarding motives and if they are true, Serbs ended ethnically divided into many administrative zones. When the Warsaw pact and Soviet Union dissolved, the power balance between East and West (on which Yugoslavia relied) was gone. Some nationalities (Slovenes and Croats for start) started questioning their position, and new parties claimed that they would be better off outside Yugoslavia. On the other hand, Serbs would also be better off outside Yugoslavia, but they were in a stupid position, because if Republic of Serbia separated from Yugoslavia, there would still be a large part of Serbs left inside Yugoslavia. So, Serbia had no national interest to secede from Yugoslavia. That was the main reason why moderate Serbian politicians were favouring Yugoslavia.

Considering Bosnia, if you look at the war maps, you can see that in a small amount of time since the war broke out, the front lines were cemented and the didn't move much until the end of the war. These are the mapes from 1992:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Map_of_war_in_Yugoslavia,_1992.png

And this is the ethnic structure of the region:
http://www.rastko.rs/istorija/srbi-balkan/img/fry4b.jpg

You see that they correlate very well with one another:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyoWem9Nvsc


So, if you think there was an aggressive war here, it wasn't. Nobody did conquer much of the "enemy" territory during the whole Yugoslav war. It was just a stalemate, going nowhere from the beginning. Croats and Bosniaks had no power to do it, and Serbs had no interest in Croat and Bosniak territory. Once only peasants (unlike Muslim craftsmen, merchants, officials, penman, etc) Serbs (who were ~40% of population) had in their legal possession <60% of Bosnian territory, while Muslims were mostly populating urban areas. That's why Serbs were pretty much satisfied with what they had even before the was started.

The whole Serbian idea was that Croats and Bosniaks can secede from Yugoslavia, but they cannot drag Serbians with them. If they want to secede they can do it democratically, and they can secede Croatian and Bosniak people, but they cannot secede administrative zones of Socialistic Republic of Croatia and Socialistic Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. On the other hand Croats and Bosniaks wanted to secede Croatia and Bosnia because that way they'd be getting more than they deserve. And that's how the war broke out. Western countries didn't do any good. They talked Bosnians 2 times into not accepting peace plans, as I've already posted somewhere.

First time in 1992. for Carrington-Cutiliero plan:

"On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Serbs and Mate Boban for the Croats.
On 28 March 1992, after a meeting with US ambassador to Yugoslavia Warren Zimmermann in Sarajevo, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any division of Bosnia."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_...Cutileiro_plan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_plans_offered_before_and_during_the_Bosnian_ War#Carrington.E2.80.93Cutileiro_plan)


Second time in 1995, when Owen-Stoltenberg plan was in question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUuh...youtu.be&t=25m (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUuhSGnLvv8&feature=youtu.be&t=25m)


Badinter commission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitration_Commission_of_the_Peace_Conference_on_ Yugoslavia) concluded they they recognize the borders of republics as state borders. That literally means that they gave advantage to some map lines that 7 communists have drawn in the middle of the winter of 1943. in some Bosnian hut, over democracy and will of the people. The decisions of that commission were illegitimate, illegal, contrary to Yugoslav constitution and international law.







They didn't want to cleanse it. If anything, the number of Albanians only rose during while Kosovo was under Serbian government. From ~500.000 in 1948. to ~1.600.000 in 1991.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#Ethnic_groups


Some claim that Serbians started ethnic cleansing during the NATO bombing. Serbians themselves claim, that Albanians fled from NATO bombing, for which they have some arguments in the fact that not a small number of Albanians looked for salvation in other parts of Yugoslavia controlled by Serbian army. Nevertheless, ethnic cleansing definitely started after the NATO's war to stop ethnic cleansing.

This is the report of OSCE observer who was on Kosovo:
"With the reversal of power, the 800,000 Kosovar refugees, created by the war, returned, supporting the KLA's policy of reverse intimidation and atrocities. This all but ethnically cleansed the majority of the 270,000 Kosovo Serbs and other minorities from the province."
http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/rkeith.htm


This is what lord Carrington says:
"Nato bombing of Serbia caused, rather than prevented, ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, the organisation's former secretary general, Lord Carrington, said today.The bombing "made things very much worse" and the European Union had made "catastrophically stupid decisions" in its dealings with the former Yugoslavia, he added."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/aug/27/balkans
No you are wrong,and you know it. Yugoslavia was governed by Tito. He was a Croat. Afterwards his death the Serbs started to take the power. Which means that kosova was ruled non by the Serbs. When the Serbs took the power over Yugoslavia they omitted the human rights and the self governing of inhabitants of kosova. Serbs were the reason why Yugoslavia dissolve. During the time of Tito the Albanians were ok.

Piro Ilir
28-08-15, 15:47
and as you left last the Ottoman empire,
now you want to restore it,
but Big Kossova is coming, ahahahaha
Why they want to restore it? It's not any profit from what you are saying. And Greece is behaving as the Byzantine empire.

Piro Ilir
28-08-15, 16:00
The killings were not a fabrication, but we still have no knowledge of who conducted them. Facts stand that:



1. Serbs themselves called for journalists to monitor the operation in Racak

"If the Serbs had been planning a bloody massacre that day, why had they issued a press release in Pristina that morning, inviting journalists to come to Racak to cover the police operation?"
https://theremustbejustice.wordpress.com/2013/04/02/how-the-road-to-racak-was-renamed-to-william-walker-road/



2. William Walker suppressing the pretext

"These internal KVM documents also showed that William Walker tried to suppress reports that the KLA had kidnapped MUP and VJ personnel serving in the Racak area. The documents showed that Walker was furious at the KVM staff when word reached Washington that the kidnappings had occurred."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-1999-racak-massacre-kla-had-been-planning-to-fabricate-serbian-crimes/1836



3. There was no bodies at the beginning

The pathologists found only six bodies had suffered a single gunshot wound, with most being covered in multiple wounds. The trajectories showed the bullets coming from many different angles and elevations. Very few of the dead appeared to have been shot at close range. And in contrast to the claims by Walker, no evidence of deliberate disfigurement of the bodies was found.
These findings would tend to support those eyewitnesses who reported that there had been violent clashes between Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) forces and Serbian units near Racak the day before the bodies were found, and that the dead may have been killed in this firefight. OSCE observers and journalists who visited the village immediately after the fighting did not report finding any signs of a massacre and the 40 bodies were only discovered some 12 hours later.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2001/02/yugo-f12.html




4. Bodies were tempered with

As seen here on the photos, Albanian white cap was added later (warning - explicit photos):
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/pv020703.htm



5. William Walker pressuring forensics to alter the report

“she further explained Walker insisted she should tell the media that Serbs have committed a massacre in the village of Racak, and that the killed were not combatants, but “innocent civilians”.
http://de-construct.net/e-zine/?p=3451

“What angered him most was that I refused to use the word massacre and say who stood behind what happened in Račak. He was terribly angry about that. He threw a pencil at me,“ Ranta recalls.
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes.php?yyyy=2008&mm=10&dd=23&nav_id=54430


"In October 2008, Helena Ranta, the Finnish pathologist who had conducted the forensic examination on the Račak casualties, stated that she had been pressured to modify the contents of her report, both by the Finnish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and by William Walker, the head of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) Kosovo Verification Mission, in order to make more explicit the role of Yugoslav troops in the incident. She refused to do so."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C4%8Dak_massacre#Forensic_reports





From all this we can conclude the William Walker, who was OSCE chief in Kosovo is a manipulant and cannot be trusted. He tempered with the evidence and investigation and I don't think we will ever find out what really happened in Racak, and who killed those men. I'm not saying that Serbians didn't do it for sure, but everything suggest that it was a CIA hoax.
Yes, I am not waiting from you any apologise. You don't admit even the massacres of Bosnia, especially Srebrenica, where were slaughtered 8000 people. Recak was nothing compared with Srebrenica. Fortunately the Serb prime minister apologized about the massacres. The massacre of Recak was done by the soldiers of Milosevic, not by the entire Serb people. Milosevic got it what he deserved.

Ike
28-08-15, 19:13
No you are wrong,and you know it. Yugoslavia was governed by Tito. He was a Croat. Afterwards his death the Serbs started to take the power. Which means that kosova was ruled non by the Serbs. When the Serbs took the power over Yugoslavia they omitted the human rights and the self governing of inhabitants of kosova. Serbs were the reason why Yugoslavia dissolve. During the time of Tito the Albanians were ok.

No, it was not the Serbs. It was CIA and EU that destroyed Yugoslavia on purpose. And it has nothing to do with Albanians or human rights. If they didn't do it, Serbs would never let NATO enter the region.



Yes, I am not waiting from you any apologise. You don't admit even the massacres of Bosnia, especially Srebrenica, where were slaughtered 8000 people. Recak was nothing compared with Srebrenica. Fortunately the Serb prime minister apologized about the massacres. The massacre of Recak was done by the soldiers of Milosevic, not by the entire Serb people. Milosevic got it what he deserved.

1. I can't apologize for Serbian people.

2. You're lying. Nowhere did I say that massacres hadn't happen.

3. As I've already told you about Racak, if William Walker didn't meddle with the evidence and pressured experts in his insane wish to start war with Yugoslavia as soon as possible, we might have known what exactly happened. Walker probably knows, as does his instructor Madeleine Albright. He didn't want an investigation, he just hurried to bring TV cameras to make his propaganda photos. After his photoshoot was done, he didn't care anymore about the bodies.

Piro Ilir
30-08-15, 14:31
No, it was not the Serbs. It was CIA and EU that destroyed Yugoslavia on purpose. And it has nothing to do with Albanians or human rights. If they didn't do it, Serbs would never let NATO enter the region.




1. I can't apologize for Serbian people.

2. You're lying. Nowhere did I say that massacres hadn't happen.

3. As I've already told you about Racak, if William Walker didn't meddle with the evidence and pressured experts in his insane wish to start war with Yugoslavia as soon as possible, we might have known what exactly happened. Walker probably knows, as does his instructor Madeleine Albright. He didn't want an investigation, he just hurried to bring TV cameras to make his propaganda photos. After his photoshoot was done, he didn't care anymore about the bodies.
The war was against Milosevic and against Serbia. It was not a war onto Yugoslavia, simply because there was no more Yugoslavia. There remained only Serbia and her nationalist rulers [emoji23]. Everyone left from Yugoslavia. You mean that 1 million kosovars who left during the war, left because the NATO was making an ethnic cleansing? There are many testimonies from those people, which clearly show an ethnic cleansing made by the Serbs. The atrocities were disgusting.

Johannes
31-08-15, 16:02
[QUOTE=Ike;465210]No, it was not the Serbs. It was CIA and EU that destroyed Yugoslavia on purpose. And it has nothing to do with Albanians or human rights. If they didn't do it, Serbs would never let NATO enter the region.[/QUOTE

Can you please explain as to why the CIA or EU would want to destroy or break up the Yugoslav Republic??? It dissolved by itself. So why would the EU or USA want to have anything to do with making things more difficult?? You seem to have some deep knowledge that we will never know. Please enlighten us ;-)

Johannes
31-08-15, 16:04
The war was against Milosevic and against Serbia. It was not a war onto Yugoslavia, simply because there was no more Yugoslavia. There remained only Serbia and her nationalist rulers [emoji23]. Everyone left from Yugoslavia. You mean that 1 million kosovars who left during the war, left because the NATO was making an ethnic cleansing? There are many testimonies from those people, which clearly show an ethnic cleansing made by the Serbs. The atrocities were disgusting.

This is exactly what we in USA saw or learned form the media. Now is the media wrong or are the Serbs trying to hide their crimes?

Piro Ilir
31-08-15, 21:48
This is exactly what we in USA saw or learned form the media. Now is the media wrong or are the Serbs trying to hide their crimes?
You and no one else can fabricate so many testimonies. There are many testimonies from the refugees who left to Albania. Many of them are disgusting. But the member Ike is not representing here all the Serbs. They generally have a different behavior onto this issue. They admitted the crimes made by the Milosevic's regime . Today we have a new era on Albanian Serb relationships.
We don't want no more photos like this on Balkans
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/31/3fd00b3f0edcb76d4da71236c2b1ddce.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/31/5561fe2b3a608768f8bae50d65a69470.jpg

Piro Ilir
31-08-15, 21:51
Massive graves were discovered on Serbia and Kosova afterward the war and recently. There are still civil dead kosovars who have not still a grave.

Piro Ilir
31-08-15, 21:54
The last photo is of one Serb criminal, while killing a Kosovar . He still walks free on the northern mitrovica territory.

Ike
01-09-15, 04:47
Can you please explain as to why the CIA or EU would want to destroy or break up the Yugoslav Republic??? It dissolved by itself. So why would the EU or USA want to have anything to do with making things more difficult?? You seem to have some deep knowledge that we will never know. Please enlighten us ;-)

They wanted to destroy it so they could get the territories into NATO.

It didn't dissolve by itself, it had a hard push from the outside. Why would anyone think about dissolvement and starting a war after the Soviet Union collapsed, and communist regimes started falling down across the Eastern Europe? Yugoslavia was awaiting transition, and everyone was aware that in 5-10 years period they'd be practically independent. It was the moment when multiparty system was introduced, and the republics could choose their own leaders, change laws, control their monetary system independent of Federal government, etc. No, I don't believe it dissolved by itself.

They didn't make it difficult, they made things better for themselves. They destroyed the Yugoslav economy, and after that they bought Yugoslav factories and facilities for small money. Now people have nowhere to work, and they have to buy foreign products, for which they have no money, so that country is falling deeper into debts. They installed NATO troops all over region, they have Bonstill here, and after that they went towards Ukraine.
"Camp Bondsteel is the largest and the most expensive foreign military base built by the US in Europe, since the Vietnam War."

They practically occupied the whole territory of ex Yugoslavia and made it it's colony. Exactly everything for which people were dissatisfied with (pre 1990) communist government, is now happening. The independence sent newly formed states back in time ~70 years.



This is exactly what we in USA saw or learned form the media. Now is the media wrong or are the Serbs trying to hide their crimes?

I already posted here. It has nothing to do with Serbians, Croatians or anything else. Most simple religion and global politics stuff. If it was the Serbs that wanted to cooperate with CIA in their plans, now you'd see Croatia, Bosnia and Albania deleted from the maps. We are all too small in those games. Read some books if you want to know what really happened and why:
7406

Ike
01-09-15, 05:04
The war was against Milosevic and against Serbia. It was not a war onto Yugoslavia, simply because there was no more Yugoslavia. There remained only Serbia and her nationalist rulers [emoji23]. Everyone left from Yugoslavia. You mean that 1 million kosovars who left during the war, left because the NATO was making an ethnic cleansing? There are many testimonies from those people, which clearly show an ethnic cleansing made by the Serbs. The atrocities were disgusting.

We already discussed this. There is and was no Serbia. It is not a legitimate state as was not any other formed by communists.




You and no one else can fabricate so many testimonies. There are many testimonies from the refugees who left to Albania. Many of them are disgusting. But the member Ike is not representing here all the Serbs. They generally have a different behavior onto this issue. They admitted the crimes made by the Milosevic's regime . Today we have a new era on Albanian Serb relationships. We don't want no more photos like this on Balkans


No we don't have no era of anything. It's just a mask until the war begins again. I'm aware of that :(

VMRO1893
02-09-15, 06:27
What about Macedonia? [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45]

Indeed. Macedonia remains intact despite numerous attempts by Albanians to do otherwise. Macedonian territorial integrity has the backing of all major powers, with Russia, the US and EU all agreeing on this. Albanians won the best deal in 2001 with the Ohrid Agreement. That is it for them.

Sile
02-09-15, 08:18
Indeed. Macedonia remains intact despite numerous attempts by Albanians to do otherwise. Macedonian territorial integrity has the backing of all major powers, with Russia, the US and EU all agreeing on this. Albanians won the best deal in 2001 with the Ohrid Agreement. That is it for them.

yes, Albanians got everything and everyone else lost out:angry:

Piro Ilir
02-09-15, 14:38
They wanted to destroy it so they could get the territories into NATO.

It didn't dissolve by itself, it had a hard push from the outside. Why would anyone think about dissolvement and starting a war after the Soviet Union collapsed, and communist regimes started falling down across the Eastern Europe? Yugoslavia was awaiting transition, and everyone was aware that in 5-10 years period they'd be practically independent. It was the moment when multiparty system was introduced, and the republics could choose their own leaders, change laws, control their monetary system independent of Federal government, etc. No, I don't believe it dissolved by itself.

They didn't make it difficult, they made things better for themselves. They destroyed the Yugoslav economy, and after that they bought Yugoslav factories and facilities for small money. Now people have nowhere to work, and they have to buy foreign products, for which they have no money, so that country is falling deeper into debts. They installed NATO troops all over region, they have Bonstill here, and after that they went towards Ukraine.
"Camp Bondsteel is the largest and the most expensive foreign military base built by the US in Europe, since the Vietnam War."

They practically occupied the whole territory of ex Yugoslavia and made it it's colony. Exactly everything for which people were dissatisfied with (pre 1990) communist government, is now happening. The independence sent newly formed states back in time ~70 years.




I already posted here. It has nothing to do with Serbians, Croatians or anything else. Most simple religion and global politics stuff. If it was the Serbs that wanted to cooperate with CIA in their plans, now you'd see Croatia, Bosnia and Albania deleted from the maps. We are all too small in those games. Read some books if you want to know what really happened and why:
7406



It was the because the Serb leaders after the death of tito, started to control the whole state. If you should have a multi ethnic state,you should keep all the ethnic people's rights equally. You saying that CIA brainwashed the Croats, the Albanians, the bosniaks, the Macedonians, the slovenes?[emoji23] Why everyone was trying to separate from Serbia? The whole Yugoslavians were trying to separate and only the Serbs didn't. Kosovars are ok with the American military base on their territory. Anyone is free to welcome what he wants inside his home.

Piro Ilir
02-09-15, 14:45
We already discussed this. There is and was no Serbia. It is not a legitimate state as was not any other formed by communists.





No we don't have no era of anything. It's just a mask until the war begins again. I'm aware of that :(
It looks like you hoping for a new war. ... I wander why [emoji45]. You like the war?

Piro Ilir
02-09-15, 14:55
Indeed. Macedonia remains intact despite numerous attempts by Albanians to do otherwise. Macedonian territorial integrity has the backing of all major powers, with Russia, the US and EU all agreeing on this. Albanians won the best deal in 2001 with the Ohrid Agreement. That is it for them.
Personally, I always support Macedonia. Albanians never tried to destroy Macedonia. I can't say the same for the Greece. I also support the Macedonian's state name. But the ohrid agreement should be implemented , not to keep it only onto papers. There was not any attempt to dissolve Macedonia by the Albanians. The Albanians should have equal rights with the rest of the population. Without Albanians there will be no more Macedonia.

Piro Ilir
02-09-15, 14:58
yes, Albanians got everything and everyone else lost out:angry:
What Albanians got, and what everything get lost? ... weird [emoji45]. Can you elaborate more? There is still a discrimination in Macedonia against Albanians.

VMRO1893
03-09-15, 01:37
Personally, I always support Macedonia. Albanians never tried to destroy Macedonia. I can't say the same for the Greece. I also support the Macedonian's state name. But the ohrid agreement should be implemented , not to keep it only onto papers. There was not any attempt to dissolve Macedonia by the Albanians. The Albanians should have equal rights with the rest of the population. Without Albanians there will be no more Macedonia.

It's good to hear you support Macedonia. It would be good if more Albanians did the same. That is the problem here, Macedonians view Albanians as enemies of the state, hellbent on destroying the state. It should noted that much of the Ohrid Agreement has been implemented eg., Albanian language is official alongside Macedonian in many municipalities, the Badington principle of voting on issues effecting ethnic matters etc...Macedonians and Albanians can live together, as we have for centuries. We must all view our state as Macedonia and be loyal to it.

Ike
03-09-15, 01:56
It was the because the Serb leaders after the death of tito, started to control the whole state. If you should have a multi ethnic state,you should keep all the ethnic people's rights equally. You saying that CIA brainwashed the Croats, the Albanians, the bosniaks, the Macedonians, the slovenes?[emoji23] Why everyone was trying to separate from Serbia? The whole Yugoslavians were trying to separate and only the Serbs didn't. Kosovars are ok with the American military base on their territory. Anyone is free to welcome what he wants inside his home.

What is this nonsense? Do you really don't understand anything, or you're just tr****? Did you even read my posts?



It looks like you hoping for a new war. ... I wander why [emoji45]. You like the war?

This is an idiotic solution for everyone, and the situation will collapse as soon as CIA is kicked out of this area.
As far as I'm concerned the real deal could and should be reached by negotiations, but as far as history has taught us it will be the other way.

Sile
03-09-15, 07:54
What Albanians got, and what everything get lost? ... weird [emoji45]. Can you elaborate more? There is still a discrimination in Macedonia against Albanians.

Albania got benefits while others did not even get a country like Dalmatia and Istria.........you should cry for them

ukaj
03-09-15, 14:46
Dude im catholic an you are sitting hear quote the quran of how much violence it has in it.maybe you should read your bible again my friend,In our bible their is just as much in it,,But it is 2015 not 7ctry...we adapted to modern ways,,s

VMRO1893
04-09-15, 03:32
Dude im catholic an you are sitting hear quote the quran of how much violence it has in it.maybe you should read your bible again my friend,In our bible their is just as much in it,,But it is 2015 not 7ctry...we adapted to modern ways,,s

It would be great if more Albanians adopted Christianity in Macedonia. It would make life easier. Currently they are about 99% muslim.

LeBrok
04-09-15, 03:50
It would be great if more Albanians adopted Christianity in Macedonia. It would make life easier. Currently they are about 99% muslim. It is easier when people are tolerant.

Ike
04-09-15, 04:04
It is easier when people are tolerant.

To ask from Balkan people to listen to imam singing is worse than asking Jews to listen to Hitler speeches from the PA system.

LeBrok
04-09-15, 05:08
To ask from Balkan people to listen to imam singing is worse than asking Jews to listen to Hitler speeches from the PA system. By your definition Albanian and Bosnian Muslims are not Balkan people?
Having said that I'm against any religion singing their songs out loud through out the city. I'm OK with sporadic fiestas and celebrations of religious folks in public places, but nothing so intrusive on daily bases as waking up the whole town to the prayer.
We have 2 or 3 mosques in Calgary (my city in Canada) but they are pleasantly quiet.

Live and let live.

Ike
04-09-15, 06:48
By your definition Albanian and Bosnian Muslims are not Balkan people?
Maybe by blood, but they wish to learn Arabic language, want to spread Arabic religion, ethics and way of life. If they like Arabs so much, they can emigrate to Arabia, but they won't bring Arabia here. Greeks and Bulgars made a good arrangements sending them where they feel like home, but Yugoslavia didn't and had a lot of problems because of that recently.



Having said that I'm against any religion singing their songs out loud through out the city. I'm OK with sporadic fiestas and celebrations of religious folks in public places, but nothing so intrusive on daily bases as waking up the whole town to the prayer.
We have 2 or 3 mosques in Calgary (my city in Canada) but they are pleasantly quiet.

Live and let live.

That's because no one finances them to overtake Canada, yet. Once you hear this sound you'll know the end is coming soon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPzIOTIvECk

LeBrok
04-09-15, 08:23
Maybe by blood, but they wish to learn Arabic language, want to spread Arabic religion, ethics and way of life. If they like Arabs so much, they can emigrate to Arabia, but they won't bring Arabia here. Greeks and Bulgars made a good arrangements sending them where they feel like home, but Yugoslavia didn't and had a lot of problems because of that recently.I'm surprised that state of Yugoslavia was actually more inclusive and tolerant than you, who still longs for Yugoslavia.
Did you experience any terrorist attacks by Muslims in Serbia? Well, "the jihadists" of Bosnia and Albania don't find Serbs especially attractive enemy, though they should. Looks like you're blowing things out of proportion.
The Muslims are coming!!! I'm sure the whole world was scared during imperial age when Christians were conquering the whole world. The funny thing is that Muslims are not conquering Europe, but asking for help to survive. The rest is just a phobia and tribalism.





That's because no one finances them to overtake Canada, yet. Once you hear this sound you'll know the end is coming soon.Perhaps end for them. Muslims are dying by tens of thousands in Near East every day from hands of other Muslims, and you and few Christians here, are ready to kill few more, or only not to help them so they will drawn by themselves or be suffocated by traffickers. Clean conscious then.

"Humanity at its best".

Piro Ilir
04-09-15, 13:05
It's good to hear you support Macedonia. It would be good if more Albanians did the same. That is the problem here, Macedonians view Albanians as enemies of the state, hellbent on destroying the state. It should noted that much of the Ohrid Agreement has been implemented eg., Albanian language is official alongside Macedonian in many municipalities, the Badington principle of voting on issues effecting ethnic matters etc...Macedonians and Albanians can live together, as we have for centuries. We must all view our state as Macedonia and be loyal to it.
As far as I know generally the Albanians support Macedonia. But there is needs for more work on the Ohrid agreement. The wrong behavior of the Macedonians against Albanians is fulfilled by certain politicians, for their own political electoral interests. Other states in the region blocked whether the EU and the NATO process of Macedonia. You know what I mean.

Piro Ilir
04-09-15, 13:11
What is this nonsense? Do you really don't understand anything, or you're just tr****? Did you even read my posts?




This is an idiotic solution for everyone, and the situation will collapse as soon as CIA is kicked out of this area.
As far as I'm concerned the real deal could and should be reached by negotiations, but as far as history has taught us it will be the other way.
CIA is always better than KGB [emoji41] [emoji562]. You hope that USA could go out from Balkans. You hope Russia come . It will be the end for all of us.

Piro Ilir
04-09-15, 13:15
Albania got benefits while others did not even get a country like Dalmatia and Istria.........you should cry for them
What benefits Albania got? What has to do dalmatia and istria with our dispute. [emoji47] [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji15] . Can you be more precise?

Piro Ilir
04-09-15, 13:24
It would be great if more Albanians adopted Christianity in Macedonia. It would make life easier. Currently they are about 99% muslim.
70000 inhabitants of Macedonia identified themselves as orthodox Albanians.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/04/45a5c191fbe85b362cfe4212a0d6ec28.jpg
Mother Teresa of Calcutta -Gonxhe Bojaxhi. She was an ethnic Albanian from Skopje.

Piro Ilir
04-09-15, 13:28
It is easier when people are tolerant.
This is what happens when people use the religion as a weapon against others and for their own economic and nationalistic benefits.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/04/cf8a600d85f51b169d749c94df013884.jpg
Can you be honest. Are tolerant certain members here?

Piro Ilir
04-09-15, 13:36
To ask from Balkan people to listen to imam singing is worse than asking Jews to listen to Hitler speeches from the PA system.
Christians of Albania feel comfortable with imams, likewise the Muslims of Albania are comfortable with the ringing of the bells.
You mean that Muslims are Nazis? I wander how the majority of Balkans is still Christian after a 500 years invasion from the Muslim- Nazis massacres.

Piro Ilir
04-09-15, 13:40
Maybe by blood, but they wish to learn Arabic language, want to spread Arabic religion, ethics and way of life. If they like Arabs so much, they can emigrate to Arabia, but they won't bring Arabia here. Greeks and Bulgars made a good arrangements sending them where they feel like home, but Yugoslavia didn't and had a lot of problems because of that recently.




That's because no one finances them to overtake Canada, yet. Once you hear this sound you'll know the end is coming soon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPzIOTIvECk
Maybe those Balkan people who still have love for Russia, we are gonna send back to Siberia to live with their tsar Putin. We don't want in Balkan any Siberian culture. We want only peace, harmony and democracy.

Piro Ilir
04-09-15, 13:48
I'm surprised that state of Yugoslavia was actually more inclusive and tolerant than you, who still longs for Yugoslavia.
Did you experience any terrorist attacks by Muslims in Serbia? Well, "the jihadists" of Bosnia and Albania don't find Serbs especially attractive enemy, though they should. Looks like you're blowing things out of proportion.
The Muslims are coming!!! I'm sure the whole world was scared during imperial age when Christians were conquering the whole world. The funny thing is that Muslims are not conquering Europe, but asking for help to survive. The rest is just a phobia and tribalism.




Perhaps end for them. Muslims are dying by tens of thousands in Near East every day from hands of other Muslims, and you and few Christians here, are ready to kill few more, or only not to help them so they will drawn by themselves or be suffocated by traffickers. Clean conscious then.

"Humanity at its best".
Yugoslavia was more tolerant than him because was ruled until the 1980 by TITO. He was a Croatian not a Serb. After his death they screwed up everything. Serbs came in power and Yugoslavia became dissolve. Generally the croatians are more western than Serbs

Piro Ilir
04-09-15, 13:55
LeBrok
Ike and other members wants just to kill the Albanians not the Muslims generally. They are not Christians. You are wrong on that. A Christian can't has a such behavior. A man who talk like Ike can't be a Christian. No way.
The superior race and the superior religion brings this
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/04/b2ec4047a19a4e09b0397e4d642932fb.jpg

Maleth
04-09-15, 14:12
Dude im catholic an you are sitting hear quote the quran of how much violence it has in it.maybe you should read your bible again my friend,In our bible their is just as much in it,,But it is 2015 not 7ctry...we adapted to modern ways,,s

There are fundamental differences between Quran and the Bible. The Quran is the revival of the Jewish Torah at a much more recent age by Mohanmmed were stoning and death for sinning as per the stone age tribal believes were revived in a more modern age and the concept of eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth was brought back to life, in other words the law of Moses.

The Bible New testmant superceeds the stone age tribal believes termed as holy and inspired by a one god. Its about turn your cheek and who has no sin cast the first stone. - Huge differences woven in perspective societies. Religious people should stop being cry babies and rant 'offence offence' and stop being theatrical to use religions for a more inate sadist reason to cause harm on other humans only for economic gains and stop being cowards and stop shielding behind the nonsense that they are religions of peace and if god said it its right to harm in his name. PURE BLUFF. One day the stone age religions will all be obsolete never to come back once and for all. Unfortunately I will not have the joy to experience it in my lifetime.

Ike
04-09-15, 21:05
I'm surprised that state of Yugoslavia was actually more inclusive and tolerant than you, who still longs for Yugoslavia.
Yugoslavia was more inclusive and tolerant than any current European country. That's why it collapsed.


Did you experience any terrorist attacks by Muslims in Serbia?
Why do you talk about Serbia? I don't care about Serbia, I'm talking about Yugoslavia.



Well, "the jihadists" of Bosnia and Albania don't find Serbs especially attractive enemy, though they should. Looks like you're blowing things out of proportion.
The Muslims are coming!!! I'm sure the whole world was scared during imperial age when Christians were conquering the whole world. The funny thing is that Muslims are not conquering Europe, but asking for help to survive. The rest is just a phobia and tribalism.

OK, today's news just for ya :) Pictures are very soothing I suppose? They march like this ever day in Montreal?
http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Politika/588222/Muftijina-vojska-skinula-uniforme


Perhaps end for them. Muslims are dying by tens of thousands in Near East every day from hands of other Muslims, and you and few Christians here, are ready to kill few more, or only not to help them so they will drawn by themselves or be suffocated by traffickers. Clean conscious then.

"Humanity at its best".

Well, if CIA would stop starting wars in their countries, maybe they wouldn't migrate in such a large numbers.

Ike
04-09-15, 22:36
CIA is always better than KGB [emoji41] [emoji562]. You hope that USA could go out from Balkans. You hope Russia come . It will be the end for all of us.
Since Albanians were doing CIA job here, the situation could change for them drastically.



Christians of Albania feel comfortable with imams, likewise the Muslims of Albania are comfortable with the ringing of the bells.
You mean that Muslims are Nazis? I wander how the majority of Balkans is still Christian after a 500 years invasion from the Muslim- Nazis massacres.
Probably not Nazi by definition, but it's of no importance how you call them.


Maybe those Balkan people who still have love for Russia, we are gonna send back to Siberia to live with their tsar Putin. We don't want in Balkan any Siberian culture. We want only peace, harmony and democracy.

Why didn't we agree on building a concrete wall between us then since 1913? We go this way, you go that way, and everyone is happy?



LeBrok
Ike and other members wants just to kill the Albanians not the Muslims generally. They are not Christians. You are wrong on that. A Christian can't has a such behavior. A man who talk like Ike can't be a Christian. No way.
The superior race and the superior religion brings this

Just stay inside Albania, if you hate Slavs so much.
When you come here with guns and start to terrorize people just because they are Slavs, off course you're gonna get killed. There is not always gonna be CIA around to cover up for you.

LeBrok
05-09-15, 09:21
Yugoslavia was more inclusive and tolerant than any current European country. That's why it collapsed.Wow, this statement of yours is very special. You loved Yugoslavia, but not because it was a tolerant country. Or you loved tolerance back then, but now you can see your mistake?
Either you are confused or you trying to confuse us? lol



Why do you talk about Serbia? I don't care about Serbia, I'm talking about Yugoslavia. And yet you hate it for its tolerance, equality of states, partnership, etc.





OK, today's news just for ya :) Pictures are very soothing I suppose? They march like this ever day in Montreal?
http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Politika/588222/Muftijina-vojska-skinula-uniforme
You don't like their cloths or singing?



ll, if CIA would stop starting wars in their countries, maybe they wouldn't migrate in such a large numbers. Can you consider the fact that you have some visual affliction, if you can see CIA everywhere but others can't?

Piro Ilir
05-09-15, 14:32
Yugoslavia was more inclusive and tolerant than any current European country. That's why it collapsed.


Why do you talk about Serbia? I don't care about Serbia, I'm talking about Yugoslavia.




OK, today's news just for ya :) Pictures are very soothing I suppose? They march like this ever day in Montreal?
http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Politika/588222/Muftijina-vojska-skinula-uniforme



Well, if CIA would stop starting wars in their countries, maybe they wouldn't migrate in such a large numbers.
The war didn't stop because Putin didn't allowed a non fly zone in Syria. And he should stop to support the extremists in Syria

Piro Ilir
05-09-15, 14:45
Since Albanians were doing CIA job here, the situation could change for them drastically.



Probably not Nazi by definition, but it's of no importance how you call them.



Why didn't we agree on building a concrete wall between us then since 1913? We go this way, you go that way, and everyone is happy?




Just stay inside Albania, if you hate Slavs so much.
When you come here with guns and start to terrorize people just because they are Slavs, off course you're gonna get killed. There is not always gonna be CIA around to cover up for you.
Do you have real arguments, or just putting this CIA thing all over?
Albanians never came to Belgrade with guns and shouting anyone, but the Serbs of Milosevic did in their homelands.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/05/f22011e042543cfe4d8d153b5d9f35a1.jpg
We don't want pictures like this above in Balkans and if someone disagree we bring him personally out of Balkans no matter what ethnicity he has. We don't allow no more Tsars and sultans in Balkans.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/05/b7f9be78db6e6c6767b850de80f6645f.jpg


[emoji562] [emoji562] [emoji562] [emoji562] [emoji562] [emoji562] [emoji562] [emoji562] [emoji562] [emoji562]

Piro Ilir
05-09-15, 14:50
Ike
I don't hate Slavs. When I ever said that. I like Croats, montenegrins, Bulgarians , Macedonians and not brainwashed Serbs. My brother has a close friend who is half Macedonian slav . His mother is Macedonian. We go well with each other.

Ike
05-09-15, 17:27
Wow, this statement of yours is very special. You loved Yugoslavia, but not because it was a tolerant country. Or you loved tolerance back then, but now you can see your mistake?
Either you are confused or you trying to confuse us? lol

You obviously have the problem. Everything I say you blow out of proportions until it gets to the point of being ridiculous. Then you confront YOUR conclusions and present them as MY ideas. And you always do that. It seems you hate me for being alive, and not being Nazi CIA supporter.




And yet you hate it for its tolerance, equality of states, partnership, etc.
Again - it's your conclusion that I hate it, although I've never said that. Are you always this childish?




You don't like their cloths or singing?
Just be glad, you'll not live long enough for them to start doing the same in Canada.



Can you consider the fact that you have some visual affliction, if you can see CIA everywhere but others can't?
You don't want to see them, because they work for your interest. They fill your pockets with money, and you deliberately turn your head the other way. I've got a couple of milliard people who see them clearly - can't miss them - they kill, steal, pillage and leave the path of blood and destruction behind.

Ike
05-09-15, 17:51
Do you have real arguments, or just putting this CIA thing all over?
Albanians never came to Belgrade with guns and shouting anyone, but the Serbs of Milosevic did in their homelands.

Albanians came to Yugoslavia with guns, killing Yugoslav policeman. As soon as CIA and NATO expelled Yugoslav Army out of Kosovo, you've completely cleansed it, not only of Serbian people, but literally everyone else. Don't worry, the justice will come. We don't forget things like this:

http://www.errc.org/article/five-years-of-ethnic-cleansing-of-gypsies-from-kosovo/1924

" In the course of the ethnic cleansing campaign, ethnic Albanians kidnapped Roma and severely physically abused and in some cases killed Roma; raped Romani women in the presence of family members; and seized, looted or destroyed property en masse. Whole Romani settlements were burned to the ground by ethnic Albanians, in many cases while NATO troops looked on. A number of Romani individuals who disappeared during the summer months of 1999 remain to date missing and are presumed dead.Today, most Kosovo Roma, Ashkaelia and Egyptians are refugees outside Kosovo, or are displaced within the province."




We don't want pictures like this above in Balkans and if someone disagree we bring him personally out of Balkans no matter what ethnicity he has. We don't allow no more Tsars and sultans in Balkans.
LoL, dude, Albanians raped and murdered more people than anyone else on Kosovo. You can sell that bu***t to some idiots from over the ocean who have absolutely no idea what happened here, but not to people who have been here all the time.



Ike
I don't hate Slavs. When I ever said that. I like Croats, montenegrins, Bulgarians , Macedonians and not brainwashed Serbs. My brother has a close friend who is half Macedonian slav . His mother is Macedonian. We go well with each other.

So what's this all about:

Maybe those Balkan people who still have love for Russia, we are gonna send back to Siberia to live with their tsar Putin. We don't want in Balkan any Siberian culture. We want only peace, harmony and democracy.

There is no Slavic without Slavic culture. Don't worry, Putin doesn't forget what happened in Yugoslavia. And he is not the only one. Many more people in the world are aware what''s going on here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2iVy0GIcgg

LeBrok
05-09-15, 18:24
The war didn't stop because Putin didn't allowed a non fly zone in Syria. And he should stop to support the extremists in Syria Thanks for reminding role of Tsar Putin in Syrian mess.

LeBrok
05-09-15, 18:31
You obviously have the problem. Everything I say you blow out of proportions until it gets to the point of being ridiculous. Then you confront YOUR conclusions and present them as MY ideas. And you always do that. It seems you hate me for being alive, and not being Nazi CIA supporter.

Try again:
You loved Yugoslavia, but not for being a tolerant country? Or you loved tolerance back then, but now you can see your mistake?

mihaitzateo
05-09-15, 18:54
I am not so sure that some CIA agents were behind Balkans turmoils.
As for Putin,why would Russia have interests in this area?
Lol,come on,be serious.
Who has interests in this area?
Turkey leaders.
If I remember well,Turkey president visited Bosnia and told something like "we need .... children per mother here".
What other proof you want,when president of Turkey comes and tells that,as it would be his country?

Now,is sad that Balkanics are fighting between them,instead of mind their own business.

Ike
05-09-15, 18:58
Try again:
You loved Yugoslavia, but not for being a tolerant country? Or you loved tolerance back then, but now you can see your mistake?

Where do you get these ideas from? You really think that whole paragraphs of my writings can be put into one word in a simple sentence as - You loved Yugoslavia - is?!

I understand that you have spent too much time on the edge of the world, denied of the facts and indoctrinated by warmongering media, but if you want to engage in the situation and get a grasp of what's going on in Balkan, you'll have to give much more effort than you currently exert. Almost everything you wrote on this subject in the last 2 years is totally wrong and pointless.

Sile
05-09-15, 21:17
What benefits Albania got? What has to do dalmatia and istria with our dispute. [emoji47] [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji15] . Can you be more precise?

What dispute do you have?...............the only problem albanians have is that they believe their government and all the lies/propaganda they state 100%.
Other nations populace already now their own government states propaganda.
Who are you in dispute with?
The problem I see is a dispute between Albania and Kosovo, where current news states that the Kosovo government does not want the albanian flag flown in their lands.

the topic is about balkarian disputes............well dalmatians and istrians are disputing with their government

LeBrok
05-09-15, 22:14
Where do you get these ideas from? You really think that whole paragraphs of my writings can be put into one word in a simple sentence as - You loved Yugoslavia - is?!

I understand that you have spent too much time on the edge of the world, denied of the facts and indoctrinated by warmongering media, but if you want to engage in the situation and get a grasp of what's going on in Balkan, you'll have to give much more effort than you currently exert. Almost everything you wrote on this subject in the last 2 years is totally wrong and pointless.

How else can we understand this?



Yugoslavia was more inclusive and tolerant than any current European country. That's why it collapsed.

Ike
06-09-15, 06:33
How else can we understand this?

As in real life. If you're a nice person trying to be nice and tolerant over the top, you'll just end up used by others if you're surrounded by passive-aggressives and other bullies. Just like what happened to Yugoslavia.

LeBrok
06-09-15, 20:07
As in real life. If you're a nice person trying to be nice and tolerant over the top, you'll just end up used by others if you're surrounded by passive-aggressives and other bullies. Just like what happened to Yugoslavia.
I understand this, I'm trying to be nice here but have to do battles with intolerant Ike.

Sile
06-09-15, 21:12
As in real life. If you're a nice person trying to be nice and tolerant over the top, you'll just end up used by others if you're surrounded by passive-aggressives and other bullies. Just like what happened to Yugoslavia.

You mean Tito was "more" tolerant ........after his death , the serbian majority of Yugoslavia tried to enforce Serbian language all over yugoslavia , fining anyone not speaking serbian.
My slovenian auntie ( by marriage via 1st cousin ) wrote about this to my father before she moved to Turin

Ike
07-09-15, 01:31
I understand this, I'm trying to be nice here but have to do battles with intolerant Ike.

Nope, analogy is wrong, which means you still don't understand.



You mean Tito was "more" tolerant ........

On the contrary. But Tito wasn't tolerant in a way people perceive tolerance today. He knew that imperialists are working hard to destroy Yugoslavia, and his secret service worked hard on suppressing foreign influence and executed enemies. After his death the period of tolerance begun, and Yugoslavia ended up like it did - in the flames of imposed tolerance.


after his death , the serbian majority of Yugoslavia tried to enforce Serbian language all over yugoslavia , fining anyone not speaking serbian.
My slovenian auntie ( by marriage via 1st cousin ) wrote about this to my father before she moved to Turin

Where did you get that? :) There is no way to enforce Serbian language over Slovenia, and never have I heard of such attempt. Can you be more precise with some facts?
And how the hell does one even differ Serbian from Bosnian from Croatian? It is the same language. It's like saying that Californians tried to impose Californian language to Nevada and Arizona.

Maleth
07-09-15, 10:19
On the contrary. But Tito wasn't tolerant in a way people perceive tolerance today. He knew that imperialists are working hard to destroy Yugoslavia, and his secret service worked hard on suppressing foreign influence and executed enemies. After his death the period of tolerance begun, and Yugoslavia ended up like it did - in the flames of imposed tolerance.

I do not believe that Croatia, Slovenia, Kosovo and Montenegro are in some state of mass mourning for not being part of Yugoslavia. They are doing well independently and no hint of any desire to rejoin the Yugoslav union. I think you are fantasizing alot..........

Ike
08-09-15, 03:12
I do not believe that Croatia, Slovenia, Kosovo and Montenegro are in some state of mass mourning for not being part of Yugoslavia. They are doing well independently and no hint of any desire to rejoin the Yugoslav union. I think you are fantasizing alot..........

I've never said that they are. We can't even know that because nobody gives a f*** what that think about that.

Piro Ilir
09-09-15, 20:50
You obviously have the problem. Everything I say you blow out of proportions until it gets to the point of being ridiculous. Then you confront YOUR conclusions and present them as MY ideas. And you always do that. It seems you hate me for being alive, and not being Nazi CIA supporter.




Again - it's your conclusion that I hate it, although I've never said that. Are you always this childish?




Just be glad, you'll not live long enough for them to start doing the same in Canada.



You don't want to see them, because they work for your interest. They fill your pockets with money, and you deliberately turn your head the other way. I've got a couple of milliard people who see them clearly - can't miss them - they kill, steal, pillage and leave the path of blood and destruction behind.
Nazi CIA?... what this suppose to be. My conclusion made by your posts is that you think CIA is an organization or mixing of altogether, Islamic- Nazism- fascism- pirates- Vatican- gangsters- stealers. [emoji23] . Do you have any argument or just your imagination

Piro Ilir
09-09-15, 21:05
Albanians came to Yugoslavia with guns, killing Yugoslav policeman. As soon as CIA and NATO expelled Yugoslav Army out of Kosovo, you've completely cleansed it, not only of Serbian people, but literally everyone else. Don't worry, the justice will come. We don't forget things like this:

http://www.errc.org/article/five-years-of-ethnic-cleansing-of-gypsies-from-kosovo/1924

" In the course of the ethnic cleansing campaign, ethnic Albanians kidnapped Roma and severely physically abused and in some cases killed Roma; raped Romani women in the presence of family members; and seized, looted or destroyed property en masse. Whole Romani settlements were burned to the ground by ethnic Albanians, in many cases while NATO troops looked on. A number of Romani individuals who disappeared during the summer months of 1999 remain to date missing and are presumed dead.Today, most Kosovo Roma, Ashkaelia and Egyptians are refugees outside Kosovo, or are displaced within the province."




LoL, dude, Albanians raped and murdered more people than anyone else on Kosovo. You can sell that bu***t to some idiots from over the ocean who have absolutely no idea what happened here, but not to people who have been here all the time.




So what's this all about:


There is no Slavic without Slavic culture. Don't worry, Putin doesn't forget what happened in Yugoslavia. And he is not the only one. Many more people in the world are aware what''s going on here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2iVy0GIcgg
First , there are many evidences of the gypsies and some serb kosovars who participated on war crimes within the Serb regular military against Albanians. They participate in the ethnic cleansing of 1999 . This is well-known by the international organizations. After the liberation of kosova, those Serbs and roma (gypsies) people who had blood onto their hands left kosova. This man still walk free in northern mitrovica.

We don't want pictures like this in Balkans
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/09/83de90daeb07bf891544e32695d93357.jpg
As for the rest of your post, I could say you that the Serbs in generally doesn't think it as the same as you.

Ike
10-09-15, 03:49
Nazi CIA?... what this suppose to be. My conclusion made by your posts is that you think CIA is an organization or mixing of altogether, Islamic- Nazism- fascism- pirates- Vatican- gangsters- stealers. [emoji23] . Do you have any argument or just your imagination

No arguments, this is all my imagination:

http://thomasswan.hubpages.com/hub/Top-25-Crimes-of-the-CIA

http://www.globalresearch.ca/a-timeline-of-cia-atrocities/5348804

BTW, it is totally passed time for you to get aware that your peculiar need to stand up and take a bullet for CIA even when it's not necessary implies that you subconsciously feel that you owe them big time.


First , there are many evidences of the gypsies and some serb kosovars who participated on war crimes within the Serb regular military against Albanians. They participate in the ethnic cleansing of 1999 . This is well-known by the international organizations. After the liberation of kosova, those Serbs and roma (gypsies) people who had blood onto their hands left kosova. This man still walk free in northern mitrovica.

Ok, so Roma's also guilty for ethnic cleansing of Albanians, but why Gorani and Egyptians? What did Egyptians did to them? :)



As for the rest of your post, I could say you that the Serbs in generally doesn't think it as the same as you.
I don't give a heck what some Albanians, Serbs or Americans think about it in their TV cleansed minds.

Piro Ilir
10-09-15, 13:09
I am not so sure that some CIA agents were behind Balkans turmoils.
As for Putin,why would Russia have interests in this area?
Lol,come on,be serious.
Who has interests in this area?
Turkey leaders.
If I remember well,Turkey president visited Bosnia and told something like "we need .... children per mother here".
What other proof you want,when president of Turkey comes and tells that,as it would be his country?

Now,is sad that Balkanics are fighting between them,instead of mind their own business.
Russia has geo strategic interests every where

Piro Ilir
10-09-15, 13:14
What dispute do you have?...............the only problem albanians have is that they believe their government and all the lies/propaganda they state 100%.
Other nations populace already now their own government states propaganda.
Who are you in dispute with?
The problem I see is a dispute between Albania and Kosovo, where current news states that the Kosovo government does not want the albanian flag flown in their lands.

the topic is about balkarian disputes............well dalmatians and istrians are disputing with their government
Again. Why you said only Albania Albania got benefits. Care to elaborate if you can.

Piro Ilir
10-09-15, 13:24
Nope, analogy is wrong, which means you still don't understand.




On the contrary. But Tito wasn't tolerant in a way people perceive tolerance today. He knew that imperialists are working hard to destroy Yugoslavia, and his secret service worked hard on suppressing foreign influence and executed enemies. After his death the period of tolerance begun, and Yugoslavia ended up like it did - in the flames of imposed tolerance.



Where did you get that? :) There is no way to enforce Serbian language over Slovenia, and never have I heard of such attempt. Can you be more precise with some facts?
And how the hell does one even differ Serbian from Bosnian from Croatian? It is the same language. It's like saying that Californians tried to impose Californian language to Nevada and Arizona.
Tito had good relationships with USA. That's why Yugoslavia had a better economy than the rest of the communism. USA helped a lot Yugoslavia, till the death of Tito. Yugoslavia had the most tolerant communism of Europe. Milosevic with his nationalist ideas destroyed Yugoslavia.

Piro Ilir
10-09-15, 13:26
I've never said that they are. We can't even know that because nobody gives a f*** what that think about that.
You think that Croats, bosniaks, montenegrins and the others want Yugoslavia back? Do you have any argument, or just your own fantasies