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Mars
19-11-14, 11:18
Please post some data, or link about the matter, about the autosomal composition of some historical populations. I'm particularly interested in Italic/Roman people, Celtic/Gaul/Briton people and Germanic people. I know there is a thread here about Iron Age britons and later anglosaxons, I'm looking for some more stuff. Samples from classical Greece are welcome, too.
Pardon the "university test-like" formulation of this post of mine :embarassed:

Angela
19-11-14, 15:42
Please post some data, or link about the matter, about the autosomal composition of some historical populations. I'm particularly interested in Italic/Roman people, Celtic/Gaul/Briton people and Germanic people. I know there is a thread here about Iron Age britons and later anglosaxons, I'm looking for some more stuff. Samples from classical Greece are welcome, too.
Pardon the "university test-like" formulation of this post of mine :embarassed:

This is an easy one to get right. :) There is no data, other than the study you have already mentioned which concerns the ancient Britons.

John Doe
19-11-14, 16:04
This is an easy one to get right. :) There is no data, other than the study you have already mentioned which concerns the ancient Britons.
Shame. I yearn for the day of a full genome study of classical Greeks and pre exile Jews (early Ashkenazi Jews from Worms would also be interesting).

Greying Wanderer
19-11-14, 16:23
Shame. I yearn for the day of a full genome study of classical Greeks and pre exile Jews (early Ashkenazi Jews from Worms would also be interesting).

With a bit of luck it should speed up dramatically.

John Doe
19-11-14, 17:21
With a bit of luck it should speed up dramatically.
I hope you're right.

kamani
19-11-14, 17:30
With a bit of luck it should speed up dramatically.

There is tons of skeletons found from Classical Greek and Roman times. Nevertheless, no genetical testing done on them. I guess they're not very interesting...All we get is the "alien" cave-mans from 20000 yrs ago, that don't fit anywhere today.

John Doe
19-11-14, 17:36
There is tons of skeletons found from Classical Greek and Roman times. Nevertheless, no genetical testing done on them. I guess they're not very interesting...All we get is the "alien" cave-mans from 20000 yrs ago, that don't fit anywhere today.
Everything's relative, not interesting for one while the entire world for the other.

Greying Wanderer
19-11-14, 18:29
There is tons of skeletons found from Classical Greek and Roman times. Nevertheless, no genetical testing done on them. I guess they're not very interesting...All we get is the "alien" cave-mans from 20000 yrs ago, that don't fit anywhere today.

Yes but currently there's only a few labs working on it so they pick the samples that tell a big part of the whole story. Once they have refined and simplified the techniques then I think other labs will pick up on the more local story in each country.

Mars
19-11-14, 19:20
There is tons of skeletons found from Classical Greek and Roman times. Nevertheless, no genetical testing done on them. I guess they're not very interesting...All we get is the "alien" cave-mans from 20000 yrs ago, that don't fit anywhere today.
Being italian, the ancient populations I mentioned in my opening post are not casual ;-) Infact, I'd love to know the relation rate among modern italians - and to a greater extent, southern europeans of romance language and culture - and our more direct, and certain, ancestors. FTDNA associates a specifical cluster for southern Europe, the so called "southern european cluster" (a mix of early farmers+native hunter gatherers) to the imperial roman (and, to a lesser extent, greek) expansion into the area. But I think it's just mere speculation. I mean, they're probably 99% right, but with no actual analysis of samples from that age, many details could stay hidden forever (anglosaxon results, for example, were somehow surprising and unexpected).
I think it would be useful anyway, especially for historians and other scholars of that academic branch - and for nerdy people like us, too ;-)

Fire Haired14
20-11-14, 06:48
Being italian, the ancient populations I mentioned in my opening post are not casual ;-) Infact, I'd love to know the relation rate among modern italians - and to a greater extent, southern europeans of romance language and culture - and our more direct, and certain, ancestors. FTDNA associates a specifical cluster for southern Europe, the so called "southern european cluster" (a mix of early farmers+native hunter gatherers) to the imperial roman (and, to a lesser extent, greek) expansion into the area. But I think it's just mere speculation. I mean, they're probably 99% right, but with no actual analysis of samples from that age, many details could stay hidden forever (anglosaxon results, for example, were somehow surprising and unexpected).
I think it would be useful anyway, especially for historians and other scholars of that academic branch - and for nerdy people like us, too ;-)

Don't take anything 23andme says about ancient origins seriously. The Romans spread south-European affinities throughout southern Europe:useless:. You've gotta be kidding me, 23andme. It was Neolithic farmers who did this, if 23andme's researchers didn't live under rocks they'd know this. Most people from Portugal-Sweden during the Neolithic was very similar to SW-Europeans, then there was admixture with other peoples(including possibly HG locals) to create what we have in north-central Europe and Italy today.

Sile
20-11-14, 07:03
Don't take anything 23andme says about ancient origins seriously. The Romans spread south-European affinities throughout southern Europe:useless:. You've gotta be kidding me, 23andme. It was Neolithic farmers who did this, if 23andme's researchers didn't live under rocks they'd know this. Most people from Portugal-Sweden during the Neolithic was very similar to SW-Europeans, then there was admixture with other peoples(including possibly HG locals) to create what we have in north-central Europe and Italy today.

The researchers are from the univ. of Texas

Maleth
20-11-14, 10:10
There is tons of skeletons found from Classical Greek and Roman times. Nevertheless, no genetical testing done on them. I guess they're not very interesting...All we get is the "alien" cave-mans from 20000 yrs ago, that don't fit anywhere today.

I dont think its a matter of not being interesting, but if I get the picture right according to an e-mail I received from Belfast University who are working on the Maltese Megalithic temples and skeletons found there, that dna from the Alps downwards produce unreliable results (!). Not sure if there are experts on this fora to explain this.

part of Reply "The reason for not yet mentioning DNA is that the method up until now is not well enough advanced to deal with material from anything other than cool climates. DNA is very susceptible to change and decay, and is unreliable in warm climates, hence no ancient DNA from places south of the Alps. Things are changing, possibly a new breakthrough in methods will allow us to tackle the many questions we have"……


However my unanswered question is that we do have dna results from other places such as burial caves in Spain and of course Egypt (but Egyptian mummies would be an exception for the way they are preserved) and if not mistaken other locations. Is it possible that the dna material was more available because of their location better preserved and in cooler ambiance, even though south of the Alps? Will we ever know ancient dna from South Europe?

Greying Wanderer
20-11-14, 14:48
I dont think its a matter of not being interesting, but if I get the picture right according to an e-mail I received from Belfast University who are working on the Maltese Megalithic temples and skeletons found there, that dna from the Alps downwards produce unreliable results (!). Not sure if there are experts on this fora to explain this.

part of Reply "The reason for not yet mentioning DNA is that the method up until now is not well enough advanced to deal with material from anything other than cool climates. DNA is very susceptible to change and decay, and is unreliable in warm climates, hence no ancient DNA from places south of the Alps. Things are changing, possibly a new breakthrough in methods will allow us to tackle the many questions we have"……


However my unanswered question is that we do have dna results from other places such as burial caves in Spain and of course Egypt (but Egyptian mummies would be an exception for the way they are preserved) and if not mistaken other locations. Is it possible that the dna material was more available because of their location better preserved and in cooler ambiance, even though south of the Alps? Will we ever know ancient dna from South Europe?

This is what I mean about the pioneering labs cutting a path. They will be improving their techniques for sampling dna so if it is harder to get good sample from some places it will get easier over time as the techniques improve - so I think the answer to your question is probably yes.

kamani
20-11-14, 15:15
However my unanswered question is that we do have dna results from other places such as burial caves in Spain and of course Egypt (but Egyptian mummies would be an exception for the way they are preserved) and if not mistaken other locations. Is it possible that the dna material was more available because of their location better preserved and in cooler ambiance, even though south of the Alps? Will we ever know ancient dna from South Europe?

Also they got samples from Iron-Age Bulgaria and Ukraine (summers can get quite hot there).