PDA

View Full Version : How much of R1a (what %) could there be in West Germany before WW2 ???



Tomenable
27-11-14, 13:44
I think it deserves a thread on its own:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29632-Poland-more-Germanic-or-Slavic?p=444923&viewfull=1#post444923


I would love to see East and West Germans sampled separately, to see Slavic influence on East Germany.

It would be also nice to distinguish between families which live in West Germany for many (e.g. 10+) generations and these which came recently.

For example in various lands of West Germany in year 1950 between ca. 5% and ca. 40% of people were recent eastern immigrants who came in 1944-1950.

Percent among the total population (by region), in 1950, of people who came to West Germany in 1944 - 1950 from eastern territories lost by Germany:

Schleswig-Holstein - 38,2%
Lower Saxony - 32,6%
Bavaria - 23,5%
Hessen - 20,3%
Wuerttemberg-Baden - 19,0%
North Rhine-Westphalia - 12,9%
City of Bremen - 12,4%
Wuerttemberg-Hohenzollern - 11,4%
City of Hamburg - 11,3%
Baden - 9,4%
Rheinland-Palatinate - 6,0%
Saarland - percent not given (probably very small?)

Add to this also Polish migrations to West Germany during the 19th and the 20th centuries (during the 19th century chiefly to the Ruhr area in Westphalia).

As well as German east-to-west internal migrations during the 19th century (Ostflucht) and 1950-present (emigration from Communist and post-Communist Germany).

All in all, I am very certain that vast majority of R1a haplogroup in West Germany today, is only the product of recent (19th - 20th centuries) migrations.

When people carry out genetic research they wonder "which ancient tribe could possibly bring this here?", and completely neglect VERY RECENT migrations... :)

Tomenable
27-11-14, 16:47
I also started a similar thread on the Apricity (my nick there is Litvin), there are some new posts:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?149394-How-much-of-R1a-%28what-%29-could-there-be-in-West-Germany-before-WW2&p=3174082

Sile
27-11-14, 19:39
I think it deserves a thread on its own:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29632-Poland-more-Germanic-or-Slavic?p=444923&viewfull=1#post444923



It would be also nice to distinguish between families which live in West Germany for many (e.g. 10+) generations and these which came recently.

For example in various lands of West Germany in year 1950 between ca. 5% and ca. 40% of people were recent eastern immigrants who came in 1944-1950.

Percent among the total population (by region), in 1950, of people who came to West Germany in 1944 - 1950 from eastern territories lost by Germany:

Schleswig-Holstein - 38,2%
Lower Saxony - 32,6%
Bavaria - 23,5%
Hessen - 20,3%
Wuerttemberg-Baden - 19,0%
North Rhine-Westphalia - 12,9%
City of Bremen - 12,4%
Wuerttemberg-Hohenzollern - 11,4%
City of Hamburg - 11,3%
Baden - 9,4%
Rheinland-Palatinate - 6,0%
Saarland - percent not given (probably very small?)

Add to this also Polish migrations to West Germany during the 19th and the 20th centuries (during the 19th century chiefly to the Ruhr area in Westphalia).

As well as German east-to-west internal migrations during the 19th century (Ostflucht) and 1950-present (emigration from Communist and post-Communist Germany).

All in all, I am very certain that vast majority of R1a haplogroup in West Germany today, is only the product of recent (19th - 20th centuries) migrations.

When people carry out genetic research they wonder "which ancient tribe could possibly bring this here?", and completely neglect VERY RECENT migrations... :)

most of the R1a emigration came via the times of frederick the great and WW1 ...........the frederick prussians accepted anyone and everyone into his empire, his heirs followed suit. This system continued more so during the prussian-austrian wars of 1860s and finally stopped at end of WW1

Sennevini
27-11-14, 22:25
Most Germans should be able to trace their line back to the 18th century. It would be stupid not to take into account the furthest known living place of one's ancestor.
I'm Hollandic, but my ancestors came from many places due to immigration to the cities since the 17th century.

Aberdeen
28-11-14, 02:47
Because of the constant shift of borders, it's difficult to get any accurate figures, but one history book I read indicated that about fourteen million ethnic Germans emigrated from eastern Europe, particularly Russia, Poland and the Ukraine, during the period 1944-1950. That must have made quite a change to the genetic structure of Germany. And of course Germany has continued to welcome ethnic Germans from further east since then, although not in such huge numbers. But according an article I read recently, there were one million ethnic Germans in Kazakhstan when the Soviet Union collapsed and most of them have since moved to Germany. And of course Germany has had a lot of non-German immigration from the Middle East in recent decades. So, while some of us tend to think of North America as a place of continuing immigration and think of European populations as more stable, that isn't entirely the case.

Alan
28-11-14, 12:32
Celtic people are dominant in Haplogroup R1b*. Slavic People in R1a*. Germanic people in I*, R1a* and R1b*. Depending on the Region I*(Scandinavia), R1a* (East Germanics) or R1b*(Dutch) slightly more dominant.

In Scandinavia you have the propotions of 4/10 I1*, 1/4 R1a* and 1/4 R1b*.
Netherlands is more 4/10 R1b*, 1/4 I*.

The East Germanic tribes like the Goth were probably dominant by Haplogroup R1a* unfortunately they died out. And post WW2 their native land was included into new Poland, which on it's part lost territory to USSR.

Tomenable
28-11-14, 17:04
There are different subclades of R1a and R1b. Only R1a Z284 is a typically Germanic subclade of R1a.

Z284 is very common in Scandinavia (especially in Norway), but it is virtually absent in Germany. So German R1a is not Germanic.

Most of all existing in Europe subclades of R1a can be found in high frequencies among Slavic and Baltic peoples.


The East Germanic tribes like the Goth were probably dominant by Haplogroup R1a* unfortunately they died out.

You are skipping from the Goths to WW2, which is ignoring centuries of Slavic presence, and then of Germanization, in areas up to the Elbe River and beyond. The Goths did not "die out" in WW2, but in Ancient times. And not "died out" but emigrated to Iberia (Visigoths - 300,000) and to Italy & Crimea (Ostrogoths).

There should be Gothic DNA today in Iberia and in Italy, if you want to find them somewhere.


Celtic people are dominant in Haplogroup R1b*. Slavic People in R1a*. Germanic people in I*, R1a* and R1b*.

Most of Slavic peoples have not even 50% of R1a. According to a recent (March 2014) study on R1a by Underhill, Poles also have below 50% (though according to all other studies they have more than 50%, AFAIK). R1a is hardly dominant in Germanic populations. And I is very common among Slavic peoples as well.

==================================

Aberdeen - a lot of Germans came also from Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia, from Romania and from Hungary.

Alan
28-11-14, 18:01
There are different subclades of R1a and R1b. Only R1a Z284 is a typically Germanic subclade of R1a.

Z284 is very common in Scandinavia (especially in Norway), but it is virtually absent in Germany. So German R1a is not Germanic.

Most of all existing in Europe subclades of R1a can be found in high frequencies among Slavic and Baltic peoples.



You are skipping from the Goths to WW2, which is ignoring centuries of Slavic presence, and then of Germanization, in areas up to the Elbe River and beyond. The Goths did not "die out" in WW2, but in Ancient times. And not "died out" but emigrated to Iberia (Visigoths - 300,000) and to Italy & Crimea (Ostrogoths).

There should be Gothic DNA today in Iberia and in Italy, if you want to find them somewhere.



Most of Slavic peoples have not even 50% of R1a. According to a recent (March 2014) study on R1a by Underhill, Poles also have below 50% (though according to all other studies they have more than 50%, AFAIK). R1a is hardly dominant in Germanic populations. And I is very common among Slavic peoples as well.

==================================

Aberdeen - a lot of Germans came also from Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia, from Romania and from Hungary.

They immgirated yes, but I doubt they migrated systematically and left their original homeland empty. If anything than the Goth were first absorbed by Slavs and reabsorbed later by Germans so that their remnants could be absorbed back again by Slavic speakers post WW2.

Tomenable
28-11-14, 20:42
The Goths lived originally in Pomerelia, which then became Slavic, and was never completely Germanized (unlike Western Pomerania).

So even if some Goths were absorbed by Slavs, then still they (those Slavs who had allegedly absorbed Goths) were not absorbed by Germans later.

The Goths lived in so called "Polish Corridor" (Pomerelia) which was never Germanized (unlike Wagria, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern or Pomerania).


but I doubt they migrated systematically and left their original homeland empty.

Pollen diagrams (palynology) and archaeology indicate near-complete or complete depopulation. So I'm afraid that they did leave their homeland empty.

===============================

BTW - is it true that data about HG frequency (for example from Eupedia) is from people who lived in a given region before WW2 ???

One of comments from that thread on the Apricity:


scientists make precautions before testing any population, among those precautions is an oftenly used requirement of having ancestry from examined place at least in few generations. So WW2 and post-WW2 migrants are excluded, better topic to make would be to estimate how much of an R1a is among modern ethnic Germans in West Germany(what would include descendants of migrants as well).

This would mean that Eupedia's data for percent of R1a in various regions of Germany shows how much of R1a was there before WW2.

And today after the population movements of the 20th century it is higher.

arvistro
28-11-14, 22:02
If you talk of depopulation of 6th century, there is a good chance this folk did not leave Poland... At least their bodies.
According to some estimates 50% or more people died in Latvia, Estonia, Sweden, etc as a result of 536 no summer year. Old trade routes stopped.

matbir
28-11-14, 22:32
BTW - is it true that data about HG frequency (for example from Eupedia) is from people who lived in a given region before WW2 ???

One of comments from that thread on the Apricity:



This would mean that Eupedia's data for percent of R1a in various regions of Germany shows how much of R1a was there before WW2.

And today after the population movements of the 20th century it is higher.
Eupedia's data are compilation of available studies, AFAIC there is only one study of pre-WWII Polish and German populations Rębała et al. 2012 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3598329/) the rest of papers are about modern populations eg. Kayser et al. 2005 (http://www.zgms.cm.umk.pl/prace/428-443.pdf).

BTW percentages of R1a in Germany are clearly elevated in areas previously settled by Slavic people or in areas of intensive immigration from Poland and eastern Germany. Cologne have 15,6% while Muenster 7,8% and Mainz 8,4% it could be result of immigration from eastern provinces of Germany in 19th century.

Alan
29-11-14, 01:11
wrong section.

Alan
29-11-14, 01:20
Most of Slavic peoples have not even 50% of R1a. According to a recent (March 2014) study on R1a by Underhill, Poles also have below 50% (though according to all other studies they have more than 50%, AFAIK). R1a is hardly dominant in Germanic populations. And I is very common among Slavic peoples as well.

==================================

Aberdeen - a lot of Germans came also from Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia, from Romania and from Hungary.


I know. There might have been a misunderstanding. I never said that Slavic are all R1a* or Celtic all R1b* I said R1a* is the dominantstrongest) Haplogroup among Slavs

Tomenable
29-11-14, 17:24
West Slavs from what is now East Germany (Obodrites, Veleti, Sorbs, Lusatians) were not descendants of Ancient populations.

They were mostly immigrants from the east. They might have assimilated some Germanic remnants - but only remnants.

Pollen diagrams (palynology) and archaeology indicate near-complete or complete depopulation of what is now East Germany during the Migration Period. This was the case at least as far as to the Elbe River. For example here is the data for Schleswig-Holstein:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29632-Poland-more-Germanic-or-Slavic?p=445039&viewfull=1#post445039

6th century Schleswig-Holestein, pollen diagram (showing the level of human activity with plants = in fact population density). This corresponds to emigration of Angles and Jutes (to Britain), followed by immigration of Danes and Slavs (Slavs to eastern & central Holstein):

http://s29.postimg.org/8jrv2ywzr/Schleswig_Holstein.png

This depopulation also corresponds to the "year without a Summer" (536 AD), after which starvation & plague swept through Europe.

PS: this diagram should be read from the bottom to the top (chronologically the earliest time is at the bottom).

==========================

Check also (this is the situation already after Slavic immigration to Eastern Germany):

Palynological map (based on pollen diagrams, etc.) of Early Medieval Germany (7th century AD):

Siedlungsraum = settlement areas (or, in fact, farmlands)
Wald = forests
Heide, Sumpf, Bruch = heaths, swamps, Bruch (?)
Marsch = marshes
Moor = moors / bogs

http://s28.postimg.org/rvlqbqxl9/pollens.jpg

Sile
29-11-14, 19:16
West Slavs from what is now East Germany (Obodrites, Veleti, Sorbs, Lusatians) were not descendants of Ancient populations.

They were mostly immigrants from the east. They might have assimilated some Germanic remnants - but only remnants.



lusatians did not come from the East

According to the earliest records, the area was settled by culturally Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) tribes. Later, around 100 BC, the Germanic tribe of the Semnones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semnoni) settled into that area. The name of the region may be derived from that of the Ligians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii). From around 600 onwards, West Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polabian_Slavs) tribes known as the Milceni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milceni) and Lusici settled permanently in the region.

Ligians = Lugi

The Lugii (or Lugi, Lygii, Ligii, Lugiones, Lygians, Ligians, Lugians, or Lougoi) were a large tribal confederation mentioned by Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome) authors living in ca. 100BC BC–300 AD in Central Europe, north of the Sudetes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetes) mountains in the basin of upper Oder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder_River) and Vistula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula) rivers, covering most of modern south and middle Poland (regions of Silesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia), Greater Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Poland), Mazovia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazovia) and Little Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_Poland))

The Lugii are not mentioned at all by Pliny the Elder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder), who instead mentions the Vandilii living in the same area as one of the most important peoples of Germania, including the tribes Burgundiones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundiones), Varines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varines), Charines (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Charines&action=edit&redlink=1) and Gutones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutones).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii#cite_note-Merrils-1)

Vandili = Vandals


Semnones origins are from central france , they invaded italy and settled in what is now the province of romagna , next to the Boii (circa 500BC ) ........they then moved to modern Poland
There was migrational tribe movement from the West to the East, before there was migrational movement from East to West

Tomenable
01-12-14, 11:40
Your connection between Lugii (Lugiowie) and Lusatians (Łużyczanie) is doubtful at least.

Moreover, in ancient times the Lugii did not live in East Germany, but more to the east - in Poland.

Tomenable
04-12-14, 21:33
If we are going to test DNA of Germans from those regions, they must be Germans native to that land (for example: 10 generations).

We can find people who lived in West Prussia 240 years ago thanks to Westpreuischer Kontributionskataster von 1772/1773.

This document is available online, here:

http://www.odessa3.org/collections/land/wprussia/

http://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Poland_Census

That was immediately after the First Partition of Poland (1772), when the province of West Prussia came into existence.

It is the list of taxpayers in those areas in 1772 / 1773, listed by name, surname, place where they lived, etc.

Tomenable
11-12-14, 02:05
According to recent (2014) paper on R1a by Underhill et. al., it seems that M458 cannot be Germanic.

In their samples there is zero (namely: 0,0% and 0 persons) of M458, M558 or Z282 in England and in Ireland.

How could M458 be Germanic if there is no M458 in places where Germanic people extensively settled ???

Moreover, in Central and South England (sample size 75) there is no R1a (of any kind) at all according to this study.

And in Northern England there is just 3,4% of R1a Z284, which appears to be mostly Norwegian / Germanic:

Z284 mutation by country:

Norway - 20,3% (24 of 118)
Denmark - 7,1% (8 of 112)
South Sweden - 3,5% (5 of 141)
North England - 3,4% (1 of 29)
Switzerland - 1,3% (1 of 75)
Ireland - 1% (1 of 100)
Germany - 0,9% (3 of 322)

And these are all places from Underhill's study where Z284 is around 1% or more.

While in Norway Z284 is vast majority of all R1a (24 of 26), this is not the case in South Sweden and Denmark.

In Denmark almost 40% of R1a appears to be Balto-Slavic in origin (which supports archaeological evidence of Slavic settlement in Denmark). In South Sweden majority of R1a appears to be Balto-Slavic in origin (which also supports archaeology and written sources).

When it comes to R1a in Germany - all of it seems to be Balto-Slavic, except for these 3 mutations (in total 1,8%):

Z284 - 0,9%
M417 - 0,3%
M582 - 0,3%
Z93 - 0,3%

M417 (other types? - see below) is the majority of all R1a in the Netherlands.

M582 (probably) and Z93 (most certainly) are Asian in origin - not European - mutations of R1a.

============================

Edit:

M417 in this study must stand for "other types of M417", because 99% of modern R1a are downclades of M417...

Aberdeen
11-12-14, 04:25
So, is modern Germany more Polish than Slavic, genetically speaking?

Konstantin
22-02-15, 17:46
Can and should be whether it is tightly linked with the spread of the Slavic languages ​​haplogroups? Rather, we can talk about patterns in the distribution of haplogroups and language within the same ethnic group. But no language family. Since the pattern of distribution of haplogroups Bulgarian and Russian (as an example) - are very different.
Do not forget to move the mass of examples of ethnic groups in different languages. For example, in the borders of the Roman Empire. Conquerors carried their language.
Definitely we can talk about the fact that many people now speak Slavic languages, appeared in Eastern Europe in the 5th century. And they probably came along with the Huns. During the Great Migrations. But what language they spoke - or who can not reliably say.

Salmon
27-04-15, 00:16
R haplogroups like cold weather. The ancient ancestor of R is P which is also led to Q. It's descended from K which is big in Asia.

Ancient ancestors of Rs were probably good in the snow, lived in Northern climates. The may have crossed the Atlantic into the Americas and traveled along Northern Eurasia back into America from Europe. It's kind of insane how mobile they appear to be.

Most of the earliest civilized peoples have high concentrations of males in the y-chromosome haplogroup k.

RobertColumbia
17-07-15, 22:45
...All in all, I am very certain that vast majority of R1a haplogroup in West Germany today, is only the product of recent (19th - 20th centuries) migrations.

When people carry out genetic research they wonder "which ancient tribe could possibly bring this here?", and completely neglect VERY RECENT migrations... :)

R1a is found in all Germanic speaking populations in Europe, including German, Norse, and English-speaking areas, alongside R1b and I1. I believe that the evidence is indicating that Germanic peoples are a hybrid of Proto-Italo-Celtic R1b, Proto-Balto-Slavic R1a, and Proto-Norse I1. Somerled of Argyll, likely descendant of a Viking, was R1a and doesn't show any signs of being Slavic (other than perhaps being R1a). While some of the R1a in West Germany today may, in fact, be from recent Slavic movements, I suspect that a good deal of it has been there for a very long time, with hefty populations of native proto-German R1a and Viking R1a.

Sile
17-07-15, 23:05
R1a is found in all Germanic speaking populations in Europe, including German, Norse, and English-speaking areas, alongside R1b and I1. I believe that the evidence is indicating that Germanic peoples are a hybrid of Proto-Italo-Celtic R1b, Proto-Balto-Slavic R1a, and Proto-Norse I1. Somerled of Argyll, likely descendant of a Viking, was R1a and doesn't show any signs of being Slavic (other than perhaps being R1a). While some of the R1a in West Germany today may, in fact, be from recent Slavic movements, I suspect that a good deal of it has been there for a very long time, with hefty populations of native proto-German R1a and Viking R1a.

considering that ancient finds in Germany notes findings of I1, I2, G2a and T1a in early Neolithic Germany thousands of years before the introduction of R1 into Germany, are they too Germanic? or when did this term ( Germanic )begin in modern Germany?
If R1 began the term Germanic, what where the others noted as ....