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Sile
30-11-14, 00:52
have not read it yet

http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15

joeyc
30-11-14, 12:16
Insteresting image which shows the highest variance and so the place of origin of the haplogroups.
(A) R1b1a2, (B) J2, and (C) G.

http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/figures/s13323-014-0015-6-5-l.jpg

By looking at that it seems that a good deal of J2 in Italy and Greece is native pre-Neolitich, considering that those 2 countries have the same variance found in the Levant.

Opinion?

MOESAN
01-12-14, 00:11
Insteresting image which shows the highest variance and so the place of origin of the haplogroups.
(A) R1b1a2, (B) J2, and (C) G.

http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/figures/s13323-014-0015-6-5-l.jpg

By looking at that it seems that a good deal of J2 in Italy and Greece is native pre-Neolitich, considering that those 2 countries have the same variance found in the Levant.

Opinion?

Very intrestinf study
but concerning Y-J2 I don't see what can lead to affirm its presence in Greece or Italy dates from pre-Neolithic: a well diversified population can send a well representative sample of pioneers to other lands and not everytime a rarefied or -poorished sample? it depends on the wide or narrow geographical scattering of the variants in the original - if it was an urban dense population a "rich" sample can have been send and not a poor variated sample as if they came from a far borders sample of rural distribution, by instance... In Italy at Chalcolithic it seems people came by land from the Balkans: maybe a lot of Y-J2 bearers were among them? they would have been denser in East than in West, and in North than in South, their culture being different from theChalcolithic called 'mediterranean' apparently came from Greece or Aegan area. by the way, close enough cousins of Y-J2 could have settled in Southern Italy, directly by sea and from Greec (J2 is I think a bit denser now in South)

MOESAN
01-12-14, 00:14
I add I find very doubious the colours put for Italy nd Greece concerning density on the left maps (not variance): Greeks and Greece-Balkans are not so poor concerning Y-J2!!!

joeyc
01-12-14, 10:49
Frequency for J2 in Italy and the Balkans is in the 10-20% range, while in the Caucasus Nakh people can be over 90% J2. So the map is correct.

Italy and Greece has more variance of J2 than the Levant. The only explaination is that most of J2 in Europe is pre-neolitich and spread further away during the copper age.

MOESAN
05-12-14, 21:15
Frequency for J2 in Italy and the Balkans is in the 10-20% range, while in the Caucasus Nakh people can be over 90% J2. So the map is correct.

Italy and Greece has more variance of J2 than the Levant. The only explaination is that most of J2 in Europe is pre-neolitich and spread further away during the copper age.


1° I agree (if it can have some value: I rely as you on scientists works) concerning the %'s but I find the contrasts of colours are very too strong and also Central Italy doesn't show so big differences with Southern Italy -
2) You still believe high variance = source population as mechanically as that? as I wrote in another thread (I think) a target population can show as high variance as the source population if the departure geographic source place was one of great variance - the variance doesn't decrease dramatically by destiny : it occurs only when migrants come from a spot subpopulation (regional) part of a larger but geographically disseminated "mother" population, so not homogenous OR if the number of migrants is too small - South Italy is "greek" in some way, and Greece is very close to the geographic supposed source -
Maybe am I wrong?

Goga
06-12-14, 00:12
Just an advise, don't believe anything what Armenians are writing. Armenians like twisting the facts. Hg. J2 is from the Zagros Mountains that spread later into the Levant and the Caucasus. Also, I'm not sure, but they speak about J2* I guess. J2a in Europe was an important part of the Indo-European speakers that spread the language. They migrated into Europe from Maykop via Yamna and then Central Europe. Not sure about J2* or J2b , but some subclades of J2a are from the Indo-Europeans from the Maykop horizon, who were originally from the Zagros Mountains or Elburz Range forrest Steppes ..


http://www.eoearth.org/files/302401_302500/302441/screenshot-2014-04-25-16.17.47.png
http://www.eoearth.org/view/article/152387/





http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-to9iNf6SuxQ/Tuh33oBhdBI/AAAAAAAAHxo/9gwLEbbgkrQ/s1600/Terheran+and+Elburz.jpg

Angela
06-12-14, 01:10
There is, as of yet, no indication from ancient dna that J2 was in Europe pre-Metal Ages, much less pre-Neolithic. Moesan has already explained the difficulties with relying on mere variance to pinpoint origin, not to mention that variation is also high in Anatolia, as would be expected.

Any certainty concerning it's presence in pre-Neolithic Europe is misplaced.

matbir
17-12-14, 14:35
"Haplogroup R1b1a2-M269

The spatial distribution of the main western European Y-chromosomal lineage, haplogroup R1b1a2-M269, shows a significant frequency cline from 7% in Lebanon to 82% in Ireland [24 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15#B24)],[47 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15#B47)], though also present in trace amounts in the majority of the North Caucasus populations [30 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15#B30)]. Among Armenian samples, the haplogroup is one of the most common lineages, which is frequently encountered in the eastern part of the Armenian Highland and Van (see Additional file 5 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15/suppl/S5)).
In contrast, a decreasing cline of microsatellite variance is detected from the Levant towards northwest and northeast. Furthermore, in comparison with all analyzed populations from the Near East, Europe, and Anatolia, the haplogroup R1b1a2-M269 occurs with the highest genetic variances in the western parts of the Armenian plateau, in Sasun and Salmast (Figure 5 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15/figure/F5)).
A heatmap plot of FST distances within haplogroup R1b1a2 (Figure 6 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15/figure/F6)) reveals two large clusters with low genetic distances. The first represents a genetic homogeneity of European populations, while the second encompasses all populations of the Near East. Generally, only the population of Sasun is slightly different within the last group, likely due to the long centuries of its aforementioned isolation by geographic barriers. Moreover, in contrast to other populations of the Near Eastern cluster, the populations of the western part of the Armenian Highland, Van, Turkey, and Lebanon show a moderate level of genetic affinity to the central European populations. Indeed, the actual estimates of the FST values for haplogroup R1b1a2 place the western region of the Armenian Highland in a transitional position between the Near East and Europe (see Additional file 4 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15/suppl/S4), sheet 2). Previous data on the limited Y-chromosomal and autosomal sharing among the Armenian and European populations [31 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15#B31)],[35 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15#B35)] should be considered as a consequence of the absence, in their Armenian datasets, of the populations from the western region of the Armenian Highland.
To assess the relationship between the haplotypes, we have conducted a median-joining network analysis within the haplogroup R1b1a2-M269 for the populations of Lebanon, the western part of the Armenian Highland, Italy, and Ireland, roughly approximating the path of human Neolithic migrations (see Additional file 6 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15/suppl/S6)). The haplotypes of western Armenian origin are widely scattered and mainly associated with haplotypes from the Near Eastern (Lebanese) population. In addition, there are four haplotypes shared between Armenians and Europeans (Ireland and Italy), which was not revealed in Herrera et al. [35 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15#B35)]."

"Conclusions
Our observation of the Y-chromosomal structure in geographically different Armenian populations suggests that the Armenian Highland served as a transitional corridor for at least two distinct pathways of migration for Neolithic farmers from the Near East westward and northward. The movement to Europe took place predominantly via the western region of the Armenian Highland alongside the coastline of the Mediterranean Sea, which is supported by the spatial distribution pattern of the haplogroup R1b1a2-M269. The migration to the North Caucasus occurred mainly across the central and eastern regions of the Armenian Highland, which is shown by the geographical distribution of haplogroup G-M201. In addition, we identified a distinct Neolithic wave of bidirectional expansion to Europe and the North Caucasus associated with haplogroup J2-M172.

Thus, at the initial stage of the Neolithic migration from the Levant, different directions and waves of population movement could be identified in the Armenian Highland (Figure 8 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15/figure/F8)). This inference needs to be tested by further study of other indigenous populations of the region using higher resolution genotyping of Y-chromosome, mitochondrial, and autosomal DNA markers, as well as applying the data recovered from ancient DNA."

New academic paper provides evidence that R1b - M269 spread to Europe from Western Armenian Plateau and deny southern Caucasus as source of European R1b. Findings supports earlier statements of Myres and Busby who suggested that R1b founder effect in Western Europe is caused by migration of farmers from Near East.
Map showing migration routes:
6963

Alan
18-12-14, 22:19
There is, as of yet, no indication from ancient dna that J2 was in Europe pre-Metal Ages, much less pre-Neolithic. Moesan has already explained the difficulties with relying on mere variance to pinpoint origin, not to mention that variation is also high in Anatolia, as would be expected.

Any certainty concerning it's presence in pre-Neolithic Europe is misplaced.

Watched it now. Allot of aspects of the speech were very unscientific. It was like someone just repeating what he has heard here and there without knowing himself what to do with the information exactly. Also seeing heterogeneous origin of a people just based on Haplogroup diversity is so amateurish. He must be thinking all Indo Europeans have belonged to one Haplogroup. And than the way he how tries to "proof" that Armenians couldn't have come from Balkans by using R1a as argument while R1a* at the same time was rather a minor lineage in allot of Balkanian groups.
His list of "invaders and natives " was also sweet. I ask myself on what criteria he has build up this list.

MOESAN
20-12-14, 00:52
the paper says:
Our observation of the Y-chromosomal structure in geographically different Armenian populations suggests that the Armenian Highland served as a transitional corridor for at least two distinct pathways of migration for Neolithic farmers from the Near East westward and northward. The movement to Europe took place predominantly via the western region of the Armenian Highland alongside the coastline of the Mediterranean Sea, which is supported by the spatial distribution pattern of the haplogroup R1b1a2-M269. The migration to the North Caucasus occurred mainly across the central and eastern regions of the Armenian Highland, which is shown by the geographical distribution of haplogroup G-M201. In addition, we identified a distinct Neolithic wave of bidirectional expansion to Europe and the North Caucasus associated with haplogroup J2-M172.

Moesan says:
concerning the "spatial distribution pattern of the haplogroup R1b1a2-M269", I' don't know on what he is basing his assumption? coastline of the Mediterranean Sea? why not? but based on what? and responsible for all the R1b in western Europe? I know the presence of R-U152 in the eastern part of Creta, "archaïc region", is a problem, but we cannot date it for now, I think - so... I need more details to make my opinion but I doubt concerning an heavy colonization made along sea shores by the most of old Y-R1b...

Angela
25-01-15, 00:16
Interestingly, Dienekes has once more drawn our attention to the Armenians and their ethnogenesis by posting again about the speech given recently by Peter Hrechdachian.

The youtube video for the speech is linked below. The relevant part of the speech begins at 17:01. There are some charts about relevant ancient cultures at 18:44.

Basically, his argument is that most of the yDna lineages present in the Armenians are "native" to the Armenian Highlands and surrounding areas (including the Caucasus, from what I can gather), and that includes G, J2, J1 and even R1b. His main point on R1b is that it originated in the Altai about 24,000 years ago (?) then moved to the area of Central Asia, then to the area between the Black and Caspian Seas and didn't enter into Europe until 3000 BC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etBNo0638Pw

In terms of overall genetic similarity he posts some data to show they are very similar to Assyrians and Kurdish Jews. In terms of R1b he points out that they are 35-40% R1b of the "older" or more upstream variations of R1b (L23+, L51-). The levels of R1a are very small, with 2/3 of it being Z93, and 1/3 of it being what he calls pre-Slavic Z280. He associates J2 with farming. (I'm still not sure of that, because at least in Europe we have yet to find an early farming sample with J2. Unless perhaps it came in the Middle Neolithic? At any rate, it might be that farmers in north and east Anatolia were J2 heavy. )

He makes no claims about how the Armenians came to speak an Indo-European language.

In contemplating this speech and the paper on Armenian genetics in light of the upcoming papers on Yamnaya and the leaks about them stating that the people were half "Armenian like", a number of questions arise:

1) If, as these researchers claim, there was a movement north into the North Caucasus (and from there perhaps onto the steppe), what haplogroups were involved? Could "G" once again make an appearance?

2) Could the bi-directional movement from the Caucasus both north and south indeed be J2a and/or perhaps J2b? In that case, would we expect to see it on the steppe? We already have one Metal Ages "Indo-European" J2a in Europe.

3) Could the south/north movement also involve R1b, which has been posited on this Board?

4) What then of R1a? Is that relegated to the EHG portion of Yamnaya, and the R1b is perhaps found in the "Armenian like" people who fed into the steppe? Could both groups have had ANE, but perhaps EHG had more of it? Could the EHG group also have included the "N" ydna lineages?

5) Would this then create a situation where Yamnaya was perhaps more R1b heavy than R1a heavy, and it was the Indo-Europeanized groups to the north, the groups which actually helped to form Corded Ware, which were actually more heavily R1a?

6) Could this result in a two wave migration of ANE into Europe (in addition to what was in the SHG, which might or might not have moved across Europe on a northerly latitude even earlier)? In other words, could there have been an actual Yamnaya wave up the Danube and west, southwest and southeast, and a movement from the Indo-Europeanized groups north of Yamnaya into the Corded Ware Zone and therefore more north and then west into Europe? Wouldn't that explain the leaks that Corded Ware is partly descended from a "Yamnaya related" group, and that the ANE in western Europe cannot be totally explained by Corded Ware?

I've been speculating along these lines for a long time. We won't know until we get the data, but does it make sense?

LeBrok
25-01-15, 01:43
Interestingly, Dienekes has once more drawn our attention to the Armenians and their ethnogenesis by posting again about the speech given recently by Peter Hrechdachian.


I wonder if they thanked Maciamo for using Ydna maps from Eupedia in their presentation? I'm not sure if I2c map was Sparkey's?

Anyway, the ydna study created quite a commotion in many Caucasian monarchies.

Aaron1981
25-01-15, 01:58
"Haplogroup R1b1a2-M269

The spatial distribution of the main western European Y-chromosomal lineage, haplogroup R1b1a2-M269, shows a significant frequency cline from 7% in Lebanon to 82% in Ireland [24 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15#B24)],[47 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15#B47)], though also present in trace amounts in the majority of the North Caucasus populations [30 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15#B30)]. Among Armenian samples, the haplogroup is one of the most common lineages, which is frequently encountered in the eastern part of the Armenian Highland and Van (see Additional file 5 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15/suppl/S5)).
In contrast, a decreasing cline of microsatellite variance is detected from the Levant towards northwest and northeast. Furthermore, in comparison with all analyzed populations from the Near East, Europe, and Anatolia, the haplogroup R1b1a2-M269 occurs with the highest genetic variances in the western parts of the Armenian plateau, in Sasun and Salmast (Figure 5 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15/figure/F5)).
A heatmap plot of FST distances within haplogroup R1b1a2 (Figure 6 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15/figure/F6)) reveals two large clusters with low genetic distances. The first represents a genetic homogeneity of European populations, while the second encompasses all populations of the Near East. Generally, only the population of Sasun is slightly different within the last group, likely due to the long centuries of its aforementioned isolation by geographic barriers. Moreover, in contrast to other populations of the Near Eastern cluster, the populations of the western part of the Armenian Highland, Van, Turkey, and Lebanon show a moderate level of genetic affinity to the central European populations. Indeed, the actual estimates of the FST values for haplogroup R1b1a2 place the western region of the Armenian Highland in a transitional position between the Near East and Europe (see Additional file 4 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15/suppl/S4), sheet 2). Previous data on the limited Y-chromosomal and autosomal sharing among the Armenian and European populations [31 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15#B31)],[35 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15#B35)] should be considered as a consequence of the absence, in their Armenian datasets, of the populations from the western region of the Armenian Highland.
To assess the relationship between the haplotypes, we have conducted a median-joining network analysis within the haplogroup R1b1a2-M269 for the populations of Lebanon, the western part of the Armenian Highland, Italy, and Ireland, roughly approximating the path of human Neolithic migrations (see Additional file 6 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15/suppl/S6)). The haplotypes of western Armenian origin are widely scattered and mainly associated with haplotypes from the Near Eastern (Lebanese) population. In addition, there are four haplotypes shared between Armenians and Europeans (Ireland and Italy), which was not revealed in Herrera et al. [35 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15#B35)]."

"Conclusions
Our observation of the Y-chromosomal structure in geographically different Armenian populations suggests that the Armenian Highland served as a transitional corridor for at least two distinct pathways of migration for Neolithic farmers from the Near East westward and northward. The movement to Europe took place predominantly via the western region of the Armenian Highland alongside the coastline of the Mediterranean Sea, which is supported by the spatial distribution pattern of the haplogroup R1b1a2-M269. The migration to the North Caucasus occurred mainly across the central and eastern regions of the Armenian Highland, which is shown by the geographical distribution of haplogroup G-M201. In addition, we identified a distinct Neolithic wave of bidirectional expansion to Europe and the North Caucasus associated with haplogroup J2-M172.

Thus, at the initial stage of the Neolithic migration from the Levant, different directions and waves of population movement could be identified in the Armenian Highland (Figure 8 (http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15/figure/F8)). This inference needs to be tested by further study of other indigenous populations of the region using higher resolution genotyping of Y-chromosome, mitochondrial, and autosomal DNA markers, as well as applying the data recovered from ancient DNA."

New academic paper provides evidence that R1b - M269 spread to Europe from Western Armenian Plateau and deny southern Caucasus as source of European R1b. Findings supports earlier statements of Myres and Busby who suggested that R1b founder effect in Western Europe is caused by migration of farmers from Near East.
Map showing migration routes:


It's too bad that the ancient DNA evidence does not support the transition to farming with R1b after 50+ male samples. There is plenty of G-P15 in and around Armenia which would coincide with at least an initial spread of farming to Europe.

Silesian
25-01-15, 03:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etBNo0638Pw
@46:51 shows N=Data set 377 and 10+/- R1a samples.
Urmia region[by extension,Armenians, Assyrians, Iraq Jews] have ANE @ 12+/-15+/-% depending on the calculator.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml
Urmia region has between 40-55% of type A1 almost 60% if you factor in/add rare Caucasus A2 [also found in Saami]
http://www.aina.org/articles/gdaicc.pdf

By contrast Brahmins around 40+/-% for B allele depending on study
http://precedings.nature.com/documents/5931/version/1/files/npre20115931-1.pdf
Also have a little bit of R1a
http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v54/n1/fig_tab/jhg20082t1.html#figure-title

Diurpaneus
25-01-15, 13:14
Mr.R1b was probably already present along the western shores of the Black Sea,during the Neolithic. The Hamangia culture is different from the surrounding ones, not olny culturally,but also anthropologically. The pleople of the European Neolithic exhibit Gracile Mediterranean traits,while the Hamangians were long-headed Mediterranids,like their Anatolian cousins. During the Early Bronze Age, the Yamna steppe people(mostly Proto-Europoids,but also Proto-Nordics) had mixed with these long-headed Mediterranids.

matbir
25-01-15, 17:38
It's too bad that the ancient DNA evidence does not support the transition to farming with R1b after 50+ male samples. There is plenty of G-P15 in and around Armenia which would coincide with at least an initial spread of farming to Europe. "Does not support" don’t men "contradict". Just to be precise, there are only 5 samples tested in the northern side of Alps and Pannonian Basin, which area is most likely the motherland of most of European lineages of R1b. Three samples from Germany are circa 7000 years old (2x F and 1x G2a) and two from France are 4750 (2x I2a1). Don't you think that accuracy of these samples is too low to contradict findings of this new paper and some older that clearly states that R1b is associated with Neolithic transition in Western Europe?
BTW among these 5 samples there is no R1b but in later one found in 4600 years old Kromsdorf site (Bell Beaker culture) two out of two samples were R1b.

Angela
25-01-15, 18:48
Like most people, I think, I'm confused by R1b. If it was Neolithicized very early then why wasn't it part of the initial move into Europe, which seems to be heavy in G, incorporated I and some E? Unless the early Neolithic people, a mix perhaps of southeast Anatolian people and Syrian people, really moved, as Paschou et al would have it, from a staging ground on the coast mostly by sea around coastal Anatolia, then into Greece and only from there into Europe. That would leave room for some R1b in northern Anatolia who adopted agriculture later and moved into Europe later. If that's the case, we should find their y signature in farming communities in the Balkans or Central Europe somewhere.
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211

This is unsatisfactory in terms of ANE though, isn't it? It seems to me that R1b had to be carrying ANE. Otherwise, how is it present in Northwest Europe, or Italy and Spain for that matter, which have almost no R1a? We also know that the EEF had no ANE. So, wouldn't the R1b people have to have been somewhere in proximity to ANE, somewhere further to the east? I suppose it's possible that ANE had penetrated pretty early from the Caucasus into northern coastal Anatolia. Steppe foragers makes sense too, but I think there's also the possibility that they were either Caucasus people or northern Iran type people who moved through the Caucasus.

In terms of the latter, another interesting question is whether, in that case, they were already farmer/herders when they crossed onto the steppe. It would make sense, but Anthony is adamant that the steppe people learned animal husbandry and farming from the Neolithic cultures to their west. It might still work if we keep in mind that genetics doesn't always equate to subsistence strategy. The "Armenian like" people who crossed over into the Pontic Caspian steppe could still be "Armenian like" even if they weren't yet farmers. Everybody was a hunter-gatherer before becoming a farmer. On the other hand, the "Armenian like" influence might have been Maikop mediated and really late, post the time when they became farmers and herders.

Aberdeen
25-01-15, 20:37
I think R1b arrived in Europe during the late Neolithic or early Copper Age, shortly before the first R1b samples show up in a Bell Beaker site in Germany, but I think there's also a good chance that there was some R1b among either the Yamnaya population or the farmers to the west of them. As I've said before, the multiple subclades of R1b suggest to me that it has a more complex history in Europe than R1a does. As for ANE, the R1b folk would be partly descended from the original source of ANE, being Y haplotype R like MA1 from Mal'ta.

LeBrok
25-01-15, 22:05
I think R1b arrived in Europe during the late Neolithic or early Copper Age, shortly before the first R1b samples show up in a Bell Beaker site in Germany, but I think there's also a good chance that there was some R1b among either the Yamnaya population or the farmers to the west of them. As I've said before, the multiple subclades of R1b suggest to me that it has a more complex history in Europe than R1a does. As for ANE, the R1b folk would be partly descended from the original source of ANE, being Y haplotype R like MA1 from Mal'ta.

Exactly. The original ANE was found in R individual (or was it R1?). We can safely assume that R1a and R1b folks were very heavy in ANE component. There is also a good chance that till expansion of farmers and pastoralists, and due to Ice Age before, these groups survived isolated and not mixed with others. Coming from the same source population they could have spoken mutually intelligible languages. Though I doubt that after 20 ky of separation it is possible to keep the language in pristine state, or close to it. However, if they were secluded, without different language substratum, perhaps in such conditions and in small groups language evolves very slow?

There is another scenario. Judging by dominance of R1b in Western Europe, it is clear about pandemic effect of R1b clades over farmers haplogroups. In this case farmers of Mykop, for example, could have come to remote contact with R1b hunter gatherer tribe and got "infected" with R1b haplogroup, which dominated others after some time. Mykop being in Caucasus and close to Yamna culture was already IE speaking with substantial level of ANE. Still lack of R1a in this mix is suspicious.

Aberdeen
25-01-15, 22:44
Exactly. The original ANE was found in R individual (or was it R1?). We can safely assume that R1a and R1b folks were very heavy in ANE component. There is also a good chance that till expansion of farmers and pastoralists, and due to Ice Age before, these groups survived isolated and not mixed with others. Coming from the same source population they could have spoken mutually intelligible languages. Though I doubt that after 20 ky of separation it is possible to keep the language in pristine state, or close to it. However, if they were secluded, without different language substratum, perhaps in such conditions and in small groups language evolves very slow?

There is another scenario. Judging by dominance of R1b in Western Europe, it is clear about pandemic effect of R1b clades over farmers haplogroups. In this case farmers of Mykop, for example, could have come to remote contact with R1b hunter gatherer tribe and got "infected" with R1b haplogroup, which dominated others after some time. Mykop being in Caucasus and close to Yamna culture was already IE speaking with substantial level of ANE. Still lack of R1a in this mix is suspicious.

MA1 was an extinct type of R1, but given that it was about 24,000 years ago, I think it likely that he was closely related to whoever became the ancestor of R1a and R1b. However, I wouldn't like to make any assumptions about what subclade or haplogroup, if any, should be considered to tie in with the IE language. Given that it was apparently a fairly formal and structured language and not the kind of hybrid that one might expect to find on the steppes, the IE language may have originated with Maykop, which may or may not connect it to some J2, G or R1b group or some mixture thereof. Whereas I always thought that the Russian hunter gatherers or whoever it was that mixed with Maykop or some such Caucasian group on the steppes was probably some fairly straightforward mixture of ANE and WHG. Although for some reason the latest tease about the upcoming results only talked about the ANE aspect of Russian hunter gatherers.

I'm expecting to find out eventually that R1b has a complex farmer related history in the Caucasus and Anatolia, one that could involve some non-IE R1b entering Europe from the Adriatic and the Mediterranean during the late Neolithic, although other R1b types could be involved with IE via the Caucasus or the Ukraine. Of course, I could be totally wrong about that. But I'd like to read an explanation of the geographic distribution of R1b subclades in Europe that discusses the age of each subclade.

Silesian
26-01-15, 16:18
New academic paper provides evidence that R1b - M269 spread to Europe from Western Armenian Plateau and deny southern Caucasus as source of European R1b. Findings supports earlier statements of Myres and Busby who suggested that R1b founder effect in Western Europe is caused by migration of farmers from Near East.
Map showing migration routes:
6963
R1b Z2103 + ANE into Levant & Europe.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif




http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Ancient_North_Eurasian_admixture.png (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml#Ancient_North_Eurasia ns)

Compared to R1a distribution.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif

bicicleur
26-01-15, 18:17
MA1 was an extinct type of R1, but given that it was about 24,000 years ago, I think it likely that he was closely related to whoever became the ancestor of R1a and R1b. However, I wouldn't like to make any assumptions about what subclade or haplogroup, if any, should be considered to tie in with the IE language. Given that it was apparently a fairly formal and structured language and not the kind of hybrid that one might expect to find on the steppes, the IE language may have originated with Maykop, which may or may not connect it to some J2, G or R1b group or some mixture thereof. Whereas I always thought that the Russian hunter gatherers or whoever it was that mixed with Maykop or some such Caucasian group on the steppes was probably some fairly straightforward mixture of ANE and WHG. Although for some reason the latest tease about the upcoming results only talked about the ANE aspect of Russian hunter gatherers.

I'm expecting to find out eventually that R1b has a complex farmer related history in the Caucasus and Anatolia, one that could involve some non-IE R1b entering Europe from the Adriatic and the Mediterranean during the late Neolithic, although other R1b types could be involved with IE via the Caucasus or the Ukraine. Of course, I could be totally wrong about that. But I'd like to read an explanation of the geographic distribution of R1b subclades in Europe that discusses the age of each subclade.

MA1 was R, Ma1 had 31 out of 36 snp of R, so it was 5 snp away from the R1-R2 split

I agree, there were probably multiple entries of R1b, ranging from M269 over L23, L51 & Z2103 to L11
I guess U106 and P312 were born in Europe and expanded later to become the majority of R1b in Europe
I suspect many Tocharians were M73, and therefore M269 were IE as well, so IMO all R1b entering Europe were IE.

I know you think Bell Beaker were non-IE R1b
IMO they were IE R1b, but in most places they couldn't impose their language to the indogenous population, and where they did, that language was lost to later arrivals of IE-speakers.

Aberdeen
26-01-15, 20:54
MA1 was R, Ma1 had 31 out of 36 snp of R, so it was 5 snp away from the R1-R2 split

I agree, there were probably multiple entries of R1b, ranging from M269 over L23, L51 & Z2103 to L11
I guess U106 and P312 were born in Europe and expanded later to become the majority of R1b in Europe
I suspect many Tocharians were M73, and therefore M269 were IE as well, so IMO all R1b entering Europe were IE.

I know you think Bell Beaker were non-IE R1b
IMO they were IE R1b, but in most places they couldn't impose their language to the indogenous population, and where they did, that language was lost to later arrivals of IE-speakers.

So I guess you're assuming a young coalescence time for U106 and P312. What are your thoughts on where DF-27 originated? There's no evidence for IE languages in Iberia prior to the arrival of the Celts about 2500 years ago. And if those subclades are that recent, do you have an opinion as to why European R1b is so much more diversified than European R1a?