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oreo_cookie
30-11-14, 07:51
She was a beauty pageant contestant. Follow the links:

3662551960_eb59a38fb7_z.jpg (http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3321/3662551960_eb59a38fb7_z.jpg?zz=1)
3652128436_1df984cb65_z.jpg (http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3615/3652128436_1df984cb65_z.jpg?zz=1)

Hauteville
30-11-14, 10:37
Something of east med i think and yes she is pretty i agree :grin:

bicicleur
30-11-14, 10:50
she's eastern and she has an attitude i don't like
maybe, the girl isn't like that, maybe the attitude is because of the beauty contest

Hauteville
30-11-14, 10:56
she's eastern and she has an attitude i don't like
maybe, the girl isn't like that, maybe the attitude is because of the beauty contest
I agree with you.

oreo_cookie
30-11-14, 20:03
You can't tell her personality from a photo :lol: Models all look kind of conceited because that's what sells.

Aberdeen
30-11-14, 20:27
I think she's a fairly attractive woman with a nice facial expression, although I suppose it might not appeal to boys who don't like girls. As for classifying the young lady, I'd guess that she's a typical Sicilian, i.e., a mixture of Greek and North African.

Hauteville
30-11-14, 21:23
a mixture of Greek and North African.
You are totally wrong dude, north africans look nothing like sicilians.

oreo_cookie
30-11-14, 21:26
She looks generally "East Med", fitting best in southern Italy, Sicily, and in some regions of Greece such as Crete. It's possible she could fit elsewhere but that's her best fit, I think.

Hauteville
30-11-14, 21:30
I agree with east med don't worry i know one girl who resembles a lot her.

oreo_cookie
30-11-14, 21:33
She is a fairly typical look for Calabria and eastern Sicily, I think. I don't consider her look "exotic". I think she's from Catania.

Of the Sicilians who do look more "exotic" you'd probably find them in Trapani or some parts of Palermo rather than in Catania, anyway.

Angela
01-12-14, 00:12
Have you reached your ten thousand or twenty thousand marker for internet posts of a Sicilian from the extreme end of the "East Med" spectrum yet? Let us know when you do so we can arrange for some type of award.

It continues to amaze me how someone who has never even been to Sicily can presume to know what is a "typical" look on an island with such incredible haplotype as well as phenotype diversity.

Just in general I would advise against basing one's opinions on one's experience with the diaspora communities. For example, if I were to generalize about the phenotypes of Portuguese people from my experience with the members of the large Portuguese American community in my town, I would believe that they are the shortest, darkest people in Europe. Luckily I did go to the Algarve once, so I know there is some variation, and these people are not necessarily typical of the whole country.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 00:17
This woman is hardly on the extreme end of the spectrum.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 00:41
Have you reached your ten thousand or twenty thousand marker for internet posts of a Sicilian from the extreme end of the "East Med" spectrum yet? Let us know when you do so we can arrange for some type of award.

It continues to amaze me how someone who has never even been to Sicily can presume to know what is a "typical" look on an island with such incredible haplotype as well as phenotype diversity.

Just in general I would advise against basing one's opinions on one's experience with the diaspora communities. For example, if I were to generalize about the phenotypes of Portuguese people from my experience with the members of the large Portuguese American community in my town, I would believe that they are the shortest, darkest people in Europe. Luckily I did go to the Algarve once, so I know there is some variation, and these people are not necessarily typical of the whole country.
Thanks Angela ;)

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 00:48
Is she on the extreme end of the spectrum? I don't think so. But sure enough Angela turns up to make some snide comment toward me like she usually does.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 00:51
I can confirm what Angela said, she is italian and she has been in Sicily i'm sure.
Angela has reason, Sicily have not a typical look (but i think it's the same for many other european countries to find phenotypical variation) all our girls don't look like her, some (i know one with similar features) yes but you can find many different looks here.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 01:00
I don't deny it. Anyway, show me where I said she is the only or archetypal look. All I said was is she personally fits BEST in southern Italy, and Crete.

Twisting my words, giving me attitude, what is next?

Hauteville
01-12-14, 01:04
She is a fairly typical look for Calabria and eastern Sicily, I think.

However a girl Carmen Consoli look-alike is much more typical than her.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 01:09
However a girl Carmen Consoli look-alike is much more typical than her.

She looks like a dark Brit. Like Lily Allen or Jessie J. If that is a typical Sicilian look, then I must look alien in Sicily.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 01:13
I doubt Carmen Consoli looks british, you can ask for confirmation to other italian members on here regarding about her typicality.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 01:17
Greek posters on Apricity said she looked Greek like a Minoan or something, but to me she looks like Jessie J and other dark Brits.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 01:21
Another point I want to clarify with you, based on your pictures you posted in pm i can confirm that you've nothing of exotic or non european. Carmen Consoli is mediterranean south european type and you also the same.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 01:23
I feel like you guys think everyone who doesn't look totally western looks MENA, and I think everyone who doesn't look SE Euro looks British. That's the problem, a miscommunication.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 01:24
What about Cristina Scuccia the singer? another common look.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 01:26
Or even Deborah Iurato especially in this photo.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2mdf0ip.jpg

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 01:33
Or even Deborah Iurato especially in this photo.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2mdf0ip.jpg



Yes, this is what I would say.

Alan
01-12-14, 02:07
This woman is hardly on the extreme end of the spectrum.

Certainly she is not the extreme end, I agree. But she isn't your typical Siciilian or Calabrian either.

Angela
01-12-14, 03:02
Or even Deborah Iurato especially in this photo.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2mdf0ip.jpg

Very common look. Suor Cristina too:

http://edgecast.metatube-files.buscafs.com/uploads/videos/image/image_234263_4.jpg

Angela
01-12-14, 03:04
Certainly she is not the extreme end, I agree. But she isn't your typical Siciilian or Calabrian either.

OK, Alan, you got me. I exaggerated a bit.:smile:

You're spot on.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 03:07
Certainly she is not the extreme end, I agree. But she isn't your typical Siciilian or Calabrian either.

What would you guess instead?

Aberdeen
01-12-14, 04:46
Have you reached your ten thousand or twenty thousand marker for internet posts of a Sicilian from the extreme end of the "East Med" spectrum yet? Let us know when you do so we can arrange for some type of award.

It continues to amaze me how someone who has never even been to Sicily can presume to know what is a "typical" look on an island with such incredible haplotype as well as phenotype diversity.

Just in general I would advise against basing one's opinions on one's experience with the diaspora communities. For example, if I were to generalize about the phenotypes of Portuguese people from my experience with the members of the large Portuguese American community in my town, I would believe that they are the shortest, darkest people in Europe. Luckily I did go to the Algarve once, so I know there is some variation, and these people are not necessarily typical of the whole country.

I am judging on the basis of the diaspora community because I know some women of Sicilian descent who look just like that, although I'll admit that I know other women of Sicilian descent who look quite different. I imagine the different groups that have entered Sicily over the centuries have created quite a mix, so when I said she looks like a typical Sicilian I should have said she looks like a typical type (judging by what I've seen in the diaspora community). LOL. I do find it interesting that some Sicilians are so certain that no Sicilian has a drop of Libyan Berber ancestry.

Of course, I've never been to Sicily, so I may not know what I'm talking about, but I never let that stop me.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 04:52
People should just try to accept one another's opinions, it's not that hard to provide basic tolerance of other people.

Aberdeen
01-12-14, 05:10
People should just try to accept one another's opinions, it's not that hard to provide basic tolerance of other people.

People aren't actually required to agree with you, or me, or anyone else. I don't see that as intolerance.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 05:26
People aren't actually required to agree with you, or me, or anyone else. I don't see that as intolerance.

Of course. But disagreement should be polite, I think. That's how debate should work so that everyone can participate.

Angela
01-12-14, 07:11
I am judging on the basis of the diaspora community because I know some women of Sicilian descent who look just like that, although I'll admit that I know other women of Sicilian descent who look quite different. I imagine the different groups that have entered Sicily over the centuries have created quite a mix, so when I said she looks like a typical Sicilian I should have said she looks like a typical type (judging by what I've seen in the diaspora community). LOL. I do find it interesting that some Sicilians are so certain that no Sicilian has a drop of Libyan Berber ancestry.

Of course, I've never been to Sicily, so I may not know what I'm talking about, but I never let that stop me.

My apologies, Aberdeen, if you were offended. My comment was a general one, and not directed at anyone in particular. It is indeed not always best, in my opinion, to judge people solely from the appearance of members of the diaspora communities, as I discovered with the Portuguese. That is all I meant to convey.

As to this particular girl, I still don't think she is "typical" of Sicilians. I don't even know, given the diversity on the island, if there is "one" typical look.

You're of course free to disagree. In fact, I think we actually agree only about 50% of the time, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying our debates, as I'm sure you know. http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/smile.gif

This is all quite different from the ironical comment I made about a poster's apparent predilection for starting thread after thread about whether Sicilians overlap with Near Easterners or North Africans, or where else they can fit, or asking for classification after classification of Sicilians from only one side of the spectrum of variation. I merely pointed out, in a rather humorous way, I thought, that it seems a little excessive, to put it mildly. Anyone who would take umbrage at that is being a little too sensitive, or perhaps even disingenuous. Next time, I'll put a big emoticon after such comments. http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.png Or perhaps it will just be better if I employ that "ignore" button again where certain posters are concerned. When the discussions start to resemble those that are conducted on various "anthrofora" it isn't fun anymore. I stay away from those kinds of sites for a reason.

Oh,and lest there be any confusion, I don't find anything at all objectionable in the fact that some Italians overlap phenotypically with some people from the Near East. Quite the contrary in fact, as I find some of them very attractive. It's just that I think the percentage is not at all as frequent as it is made out to be, and more importantly, the motives sometimes seem questionable.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 07:25
I've posted people of all different sides of the spectrum, if you take careful notice of my posts on other forums, actually. There was even a thread here where I posted a blonde one, I think you even participated in the thread yourself. And there is no European group where any large percentage of the people can pass in the Near East, actually; there being some here and there doesn't mean that anyone thinks they're the majority.

I've always maintained that Sicilians look Southern European first. Always. I'd be foolish if I thought otherwise. However, I do find dark Mediterranean looks to be absolutely gorgeous in both women and men, so I am going to post people I think are attractive.. if they tend to look darker, that's just due to my own aesthetic preferences, it's not due to some desire to swarthify my own ethnic group, give me more credit than that, please!!

For the record, I don't think the girl I posted here really does even pass, so your insistence that I have some intent on proving something is entirely off base and off topic.

I generally base my views based on what I and other relatives and acquaintances look like. I actually have been mistaken for Armenian and Lebanese myself and I don't even look Near Eastern, I have a look that even Hauteville said is very typical for southern Italy. So maybe it's not my perception that is wrong, but that of other people who think anyone who is a dark Mediterranean is "exotic". Did you ever consider that might be the case?

You don't really know me, so maybe you should get to know me and actually talk to me or ask my opinions before making inaccurate assumptions based on a limited exposure to my posts. I am a nice person, I promise! :)

Mars
01-12-14, 10:05
I agree with east med don't worry i know one girl who resembles a lot her.
Yes, her look is typical in the sicilian area. I think she has a strain of greek "vibe".
What is east med? I usually read words like that in the anthrobloggers' "calculators". In the thread about my genoese friend, a user - maybe moesan - used the term "atlantic med" or something... and still I thought it was something about autosomal dna, but... no. :-)

Hauteville
01-12-14, 10:08
Aberdeen the genetic studies confirm that there is very few north african influences in Sicily, what amaze me was the fact that you think that our typical look is a mix between greeks and north africans, our common looks is rather a mix between greeks and italian elements. North africans look totally different compared to us and they are are easily distinguished from us.
Look at these pics and observe the trait and the big difference.

http://i57.tinypic.com/w1pac6.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/fd6q2u.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/2r73mn6.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/2a0dc3o.jpg

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 13:39
Aberdeen the genetic studies confirm that there is very few north african influences in Sicily, what amaze me was the fact that you think that our typical look is a mix between greeks and north africans, our common looks is rather a mix between greeks and italian elements.

Or, alternatively, Greeks look between Sicilians and other Balkan people (Serb, Bulgarian, etc.). Not that they all look intermediate but they range from looking Balkan/Slavicized to looking just like southern Italians, excluding the Pontians who are a special case altogether due to their admixture.


Yes, her look is typical in the sicilian area. I think she has a strain of greek "vibe".
What is east med? I usually read words like that in the anthrobloggers' "calculators". In the thread about my genoese friend, a user - maybe moesan - used the term "atlantic med" or something... and still I thought it was something about autosomal dna, but... no. :-)

Anthropologists didn't mention a specific East Med type, it's a spectrum. I'd send you my photos because I'd generally be classified as such also. As another example from a nearby area, Sicilian singer Marcella Bella might also be classified as part of the East Med spectrum.

Mars
01-12-14, 16:02
Anthropologists didn't mention a specific East Med type, it's a spectrum. I'd send you my photos because I'd generally be classified as such also. As another example from a nearby area, Sicilian singer Marcella Bella might also be classified as part of the East Med spectrum.
Ah, ok, I got it. I'd like to receive your photos to help me clear the picture, thanks :-)

Angela
01-12-14, 18:49
"East Med" is not an anthropological term, and therefore there aren't even the sometimes contradictory guidelines used by physical anthropologists. It is a term made up by anthrofora posters, and a complete set of measurements, traits etc. has never been listed, to my knowledge. Probably, they would have you believe that they just know it when they see it. http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/smile.gif (You are probably not aware of it, but the U.S. Supreme Court was roundly mocked when they used the same kind of reasoning when deciding what was "pornographic" and could therefore be banned. They just said they knew it when they saw it. http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.png)

What I find odd is that so many of these anthrofora types have not yet fully grasped the implications of Lazaridis et al. They seem unaware that EEF farmers, except for their minority WHG proportion, all came from the East Mediterranean. They also don't connect that to the high EEF values in the rest of southern Europe, Spain, for instance, with values of 83% for much of it, Portugal with probably even higher values, northern Greeks at 79% and undoubtedly much higher in the south and the islands, or places in the Balkans. So, how could these people have not looked basically alike?

Now, it's true that the the "phenotype" would have altered in certain areas, perhaps depending upon how much additional WHG was absorbed, and what kind of WHG. There's also the fact that changes would have taken place as a result of climatic adaptation, and drift among long separated populations would have had an effect too. However, it seems bizarre to me that a so-called "Eastern Med" phenotype would only appear in southern Italy or Sicily.

It's also true that the EEF component is indeed higher in Sicilians than in most other Europeans, so it's not just a question of separation and drift and climatic adaptation. Let's assume, also, for the sake of argument, that the amount of EEF in Sicily and southern Italy was once lower (although we have no way of knowing that at the present time) and that the original Neolithic EEF in Sicilians was enriched because of additional gene flow from the direction of Anatolia during the Bronze or perhaps the early Iron Age. What would these people have been like autosomally and phenotypically? My best guess right now is that they would have been a mix of the same old EEF stock, minus the original WHG and enriched with quite a bit of ANE (and maybe some eastern HG) that might very well have arrived with the Indo-Europeans. (I think the increased levels of SSA in the Levant may have been largely a product of the Arab conquests, and the resulting slave trade, although some slow trickle north, usually female mediated, might have gone on for millennia.)

So, it's hardly a question of Sicily or Crete or the rest of Greece or the Balkans having been invaded by aliens. They were just slightly different, more "eastern" cousins, different, perhaps, because they had been Indo-Europeanized genetically and culturally. They also brought more advanced technology with them. If it should turn out, for example, that there was indeed a movement of at least some elites from Anatolia to Etruria in the first millennium BC, is there any question that their coming was a benefit to Italy? Their metal working skills were far superior to those of the Celts and the Romans, and my reading of history indicates that much of what made Rome such a superpower came from them, whether or not they left much of a genetic footprint.

The whole question of the Indo-Europeans with regard to all of this is also interesting. If the leaks are correct, the vaunted Indo-Europeans from whom so many wished to be descended because it was thought that they made Europeans "Aryan" and "white", may turn out to be half Armenian like and half ancient Karelian like. I wonder if that means many of them had an "Armenoid" phenotype? http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/smile.gif Whatever will anthrofora posters do should that turn out to be the case? Will they suddenly start finding "Armenoid" phenotypes in all sorts of previously unknown places instead of only in Sicily and southern Italy? I tend to doubt it. I instead predict a mass form of amnesia on the lines of "Indo-Europeans"? Who are they? We stole some great ideas from them, but we don't have very many of their genes. http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.png Certain mindsets are so predictable that it's not even fun. It's like figuring out the end of a badly made movie in the first ten minutes.

Angela
01-12-14, 19:18
Aberdeen the genetic studies confirm that there is very few north african influences in Sicily, what amaze me was the fact that you think that our typical look is a mix between greeks and north africans, our common looks is rather a mix between greeks and italian elements. North africans look totally different compared to us and they are are easily distinguished from us.
Look at these pics and observe the trait and the big difference.

http://i57.tinypic.com/w1pac6.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/fd6q2u.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/2r73mn6.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/2a0dc3o.jpg


I don't think most Americans have much experience with modern North Africans,not in the way that Italians do...

Their somewhere around 20-25% average SSA, reaching even higher levels in places like southern Morocco (when the admixture took place is a subject of some dispute) alters their appearance so that any similarities with northern coastal Mediterraneans is obscured. That isn't to say that there aren't small coastal or mountain refuge populations that have much lower levels of SSA and therefore a different appearance. However, in most of those people, the resemblances I see can more often be found in Iberia than in Sicily.

This is also not to say that there wasn't some Berber/North African influence in Sicily, and certain specific parts of southern Italy (Lucera). The average estimate I've seen for E-M81 in Sicily is about 6%. There's also some J1, but as I pointed out in another thread, most studies don't resolve their samples sufficiently so that one can see how much of that is attributable to J1e, the so called "Arab" clade which is indeed present in North Africa. (only called that because as a result of founder effect, it is almost fixed in Saudis and Yemenis.)

Even combined, the total would be a maximum of 10% and, of course, we are speaking about y Dna lineages and male mediated elite gene flow. The autosomal impact would be far less. In fact, the IBD studies which have been done show remarkably little autosomal impact in Sicily and southern Italy for the North African cluster, far less than in Iberia, for example.

So, while it exists, it isn't as high as I had initially thought.

Ed. The 6% figure is for total North African lineages; The E-M81 figure is from 1 to 2%.

joeyc
01-12-14, 19:34
The only North Africans that have a serious overlap with Italians (more than 10%) are the few Sephardi Jews living there.

Aberdeen looks like the typical white American butthurt because he lives in a 50% non white city, and wants to trash Southern Euros to feel himself better.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 19:46
Angela E-M81 is 1,5% in total Sicily which means a very little north african contribution here. Phenotypically there is a gulf of difference. I would say some berbers Zidane lookalike (very few since i have been in north Africa) and some sephardi like Joey say can pass in Europe but the ethnic north africans look totally different to an european average. In addition to those jewish of north Africa are the expelled jewish from Spain, Portugal, Sicily and continental south Italy in 1492.

Aberdeen
01-12-14, 19:51
My apologies, Aberdeen, if you were offended. My comment was a general one, and not directed at anyone in particular. It is indeed not always best, in my opinion, to judge people solely from the appearance of members of the diaspora communities, as I discovered with the Portuguese. That is all I meant to convey.

As to this particular girl, I still don't think she is "typical" of Sicilians. I don't even know, given the diversity on the island, if there is "one" typical look.

You're of course free to disagree. In fact, I think we actually agree only about 50% of the time, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying our debates, as I'm sure you know. http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/smile.gif

This is all quite different from the ironical comment I made about a poster's apparent predilection for starting thread after thread about whether Sicilians overlap with Near Easterners or North Africans, or where else they can fit, or asking for classification after classification of Sicilians from only one side of the spectrum of variation. I merely pointed out, in a rather humorous way, I thought, that it seems a little excessive, to put it mildly. Anyone who would take umbrage at that is being a little too sensitive, or perhaps even disingenuous. Next time, I'll put a big emoticon after such comments. http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.png Or perhaps it will just be better if I employ that "ignore" button again where certain posters are concerned. When the discussions start to resemble those that are conducted on various "anthrofora" it isn't fun anymore. I stay away from those kinds of sites for a reason.

Oh,and lest there be any confusion, I don't find anything at all objectionable in the fact that some Italians overlap phenotypically with some people from the Near East. Quite the contrary in fact, as I find some of them very attractive. It's just that I think the percentage is not at all as frequent as it is made out to be, and more importantly, the motives sometimes seem questionable.

You certainly didn't offend me. I admire your knowledge and writing style, even when I disagree with you. And if you had to give up the use of humour in your writing, I think it would be like Tigger losing his bounce. And I agree that some people want to exaggerate the amount of Berber ancestry in Sicily because of an agenda, but I do think there are other people (not including you) who want to minimize the amount of African blood in Sicily because of their own agenda. I've met some people of Sicilian descent who are quite pale, but I've met some who are quite dark.

Aberdeen
01-12-14, 19:56
The only North Africans that have a serious overlap with Italians (more than 10%) are the few Sephardi Jews living there.

Aberdeen looks like the typical white American butthurt because he lives in a 50% non white city, and wants to trash Southern Euros to feel himself better.

That's so silly and wrong it's funny, Guido. I'm Canadian, not American, and I don't have a problem with visible minorities (not even Sicilians) but I happen to live in a small university town that's 90% white and most of the "visible minority" types are actually Chinese, who I find to be generally very easy to get along with.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 19:58
Dark skin don't means that you are north african influenced. North africans generally have a totally different features to us as you can see in the photos above. The science said there is a minimum genetic influences in Sicily of north Africa.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 20:04
These are north africans (tunisians).
http://i57.tinypic.com/flbog0.jpg

These are sicilians (Ragusa province).
http://i61.tinypic.com/2aey1x0.jpg

The difference is huge.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 20:24
^ Those Sicilians look a lot like southern Greek, Cretan, Calabrese and Apulian etc. more so than North African.

Maleth
01-12-14, 20:44
She was a beauty pageant contestant. Follow the links:

3662551960_eb59a38fb7_z.jpg (http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3321/3662551960_eb59a38fb7_z.jpg?zz=1)
3652128436_1df984cb65_z.jpg (http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3615/3652128436_1df984cb65_z.jpg?zz=1)

Look at these Maltese girls and how similar the eyes are.687068716872

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 21:02
Look at these Maltese girls and how similar the eyes are.687068716872


For much of history, Malta was part of Sicily. Not to mention the Maltese came from Sicily themselves... if surnames are any indication, mainly from Caltanissetta and Agrigento.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 21:07
Surnames like Camilleri are quite common in Malta, i know some maltese with surnames like Bonnici and Abela both more common in the east of Sicily though. Malta has also retained the old siculo-arabic vernacular.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 21:24
Camilleri is a surname from Agrigento, especially Sciacca and Porto Empedocle. Another common one, Falzon, is from San Cataldo and Caltanissetta.

Angela
01-12-14, 21:25
Angela E-M81 is 1,5% in total Sicily which means a very little north african contribution here. Phenotypically there is a gulf of difference. I would say some berbers Zidane lookalike (very few since i have been in north Africa) and some sephardi like Joey say can pass in Europe but the ethnic north africans look totally different to an european average. In addition to those jewish of north Africa are the expelled jewish from Spain, Portugal, Sicily and continental south Italy in 1492.

That's a figure from one study. (Do you have a citation for it, by the way?)

Also, as I posted in number 40 in this thread, this is what DiGaetano et al 2009 found in Sicily:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28666-Distribution-of-haplogroup-J1-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29?p=445271#post445271

"Haplogroups common both to the European and Eurasian populations are present in Sicily. The most represented are R1b1c-M269 (24.58%), J2-M172 (15.25%) and E3b1a-M78 (11.44%). The co-occurrence of the Berber E3b1b-M81 (2.12%) and of the Mid-Eastern J1-M267 (3.81%) Hgs together with the presence of E3b1a1-V12, E3b1a3-V22, E3b1a4-V65 (5.5%) support the hypothesis of intrusion of North African genes.7 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/#bib7), 12 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/#bib12))

Boattini et al found 2.8% on average. (with some areas having a little more and some less, as is the case with all haplogroups.)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse0/Uai37lE3ohI/AAAAAAAAI2I/JlgvVTbQcwE/s640/haplogroups_italy.png

So, it varies, although the absolute numbers are very low. To get to the 6% figure that some scholars use to estimate the total North African Y Dna input into Sicily they add in all the J1 figures and most of the "E" figures except for E-V13,for obvious reasons. I'm sure some of these did arrive with the Muslim conquest. I'm pretty sure others did not, as I point out on the other thread. To get to the bottom of it we need more and better data.

Regardless, this is yDna and the mtDna that could be attributed to North African gene flow is even smaller, so we're not talking about a big genetic footprint here.

As to pigmentation, I would agree that there is a major difference between the Sicilians or Maltese or even the North African Jews and the vast majority of the modern North Africans. It's also, as you point out, not all about skin tone, which is so impacted by climatic adaptation. (Let's not forget that the most ancient sample found to date of a fair skinned, fair haired and light eyed person with the full complement of modern "European" depigmentation snps was a genetically 100% EEF person in central Europe.) It's also a question of head shape, facial features etc.

Also, there are some isolated pockets of people from North Africa who could pass in southern Europe. Through strict endogamy, and therefore lack of participation in the Arab slave trade, perhaps they've retained "older" phenotypes, and more variation. Or perhaps all those hundreds of thousands of slaves from southern Europe had an impact. I don't know. (Decades ago, intrigued by the sometimes light eyes peeking over their veils, my father, being my father, apparently got a peek at the faces behind the veils, and he always maintained that they looked quite "south European like". I assure you, knowing the stories about him before my mother reformed him, I absolutely took him at his word. :smile:) Of course, the majority don't fit into this category, and certainly not the people who have been swamping Italy in recent years.

At the same time, I've seen a few Sicilians who look like a "throwback" to that time. Anthrofora types don't seem to have grasped it, but "phenotype" snps, in the sense of "appearance" snps, are a tiny percentage of the total genome and aren't necessarily coupled in an individual case with the autosomal cluster which brought them to the area. Through constant recombination, old phenotypes can suddenly reappear, and yet the person might be autosomally indistinguishable from family and neighbors. That's why it's so fundamentally wrongheaded, in my opinion, to think that because town "X" has more of one haplotype or another, that will necessarily mean that phenotype "X" will be more prevalent. I just don't think it works like that.

Maleth
01-12-14, 21:26
For much of history, Malta was part of Sicily. Not to mention the Maltese came from Sicily themselves... if surnames are any indication, mainly from Caltanissetta and Agrigento.

correct:- I have even traced my family name to Sicilian nobility way back in 1280's and after a long period uninhabited Malta was repopulated from Sicily a few decades before the Normans set foot on Malta

Hauteville
01-12-14, 21:26
Yes Falzon derived from Falzone. Another is Vella present in all the island but more common in Palermo city.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 21:31
That's a figure from one study. (Do you have a citation for it, by the way?)

Also, as I posted in number 40 in this thread, this is what DiGaetano et al 2009 found in Sicily:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28666-Distribution-of-haplogroup-J1-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29?p=445271#post445271

"Haplogroups common both to the European and Eurasian populations are present in Sicily. The most represented are R1b1c-M269 (24.58%), J2-M172 (15.25%) and E3b1a-M78 (11.44%). The co-occurrence of the Berber E3b1b-M81 (2.12%) and of the Mid-Eastern J1-M267 (3.81%) Hgs together with the presence of E3b1a1-V12, E3b1a3-V22, E3b1a4-V65 (5.5%) support the hypothesis of intrusion of North African genes.7 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/#bib7), 12 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/#bib12))

Boattini et al found 2.8% on average. (with some areas having a little more and some less, as is the case with all haplogroups.)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse0/Uai37lE3ohI/AAAAAAAAI2I/JlgvVTbQcwE/s640/haplogroups_italy.png

So, it varies, although the absolute numbers are very low. To get to the 6% figure that some scholars use to estimate the total North African Y Dna input into Sicily they add in all the J1 figures and most of the "E" figures except for E-V13,for obvious reasons. I'm sure some of these did arrive with the Muslim conquest. I'm pretty sure others did not, as I point out on the other thread. To get to the bottom of it we need more and better data.

Regardless, this is yDna and the mtDna that could be attributed to North African gene flow is even smaller, so we're not talking about a big genetic footprint here.

As to pigmentation, I would agree that there is a major difference between the Sicilians or Maltese or even the North African Jews and the vast majority of the modern North Africans. It's also, as you point out, not all about skin tone, which is so impacted by climatic adaptation. (Let's not forget that the most ancient sample found to date of a fair skinned, fair haired and light eyed person with the full complement of modern "European" depigmentation snps was a genetically 100% EEF person in central Europe.) It's also a question of head shape, facial features etc.

At the same time, there are some isolated pockets of people from North Africa who could pass in southern Europe. Through strict endogamy, and therefore lack of participation in the Arab slave trade, perhaps they've retained "older" phenotypes, and more variation. Or perhaps all those hundreds of thousands of slaves from southern Europe had an impact. I don't know. (Decades ago, intrigued by the sometimes light eyes peeking over their veils, my father, being my father, apparently got a peek at the faces behind the veils, and he always maintained that they looked quite "south European like". I assure you, knowing the stories about him before my mother reformed him, I absolutely took him at his word. :smile:) Of course, the majority don't fit into this category, and certainly not the people who have been swamping Italy in recent years.

At the same time, I've seen a few Sicilians who look like a "throwback" to that time. Anthrofora types don't seem to have grasped it, but "phenotype" snps, in the sense of "appearance" snps, are a tiny percentage of the total genome and aren't necessarily coupled in an individual case with the autosomal cluster which brought them to the area. Through constant recombination, old phenotypes can suddenly reappear, and yet the person might be autosomally indistinguishable from family and neighbors. That's why it's so fundamentally wrongheaded, in my opinion, to think that because town "X" has more of one haplotype or another, that will necessarily mean that phenotype "X" will be more prevalent. I just don't think it works like that.
I have read that north Africa changed genetically during the last 1000 years with a strong import of slaves but i have founded no sources about it.
If this is true i think probably the ancient north africans were more similar to southern europeans than today.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 21:32
Yes Falzon derived from Falzone. Another is Vella present in all the island but more common in Palermo city.


I used to go to school with a girl with that surname, but her father was from Agrigento.

Another example is Britney Spears' great grandmother.. her surname was Portelli, which is from Ragusa province (Vittoria area I think?!).

Maleth
01-12-14, 21:33
Surnames like Camilleri are quite common in Malta, i know some maltese with surnames like Bonnici and Abela both more common in the east of Sicily though. Malta has also retained the old siculo-arabic vernacular.

Correct, Camilleri is the second most common surname, many surnames are similar to Sicilans. From the top 10 most common surnames are Camilleri, (G2) Farrugia (G2), Vella (I2), Attard(o) (E-v13) others are Polidano, Costa, Buontempo, Bonano, Catania............the list goes on

Hauteville
01-12-14, 21:36
All these surnames appear everywhere in Sicily. The surname Portelli is quite common in south of Ragusa and in Aeolian islands according to Gens.
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?cognome=portelli&x=0&y=0#.VHzRAzGG_i4

Maleth
01-12-14, 21:36
Another example is Britney Spears' great grandmother.. her surname was Portelli, which is from Ragusa province (Vittoria area I think?!).

Britney Spears grand father was Portell (Portelli) from Vittoriosa Malta :)

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20080911/local/oops-britney-has-some-maltese-blood.224313

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 21:41
Another is Spiteri. That one I think is west Sicily specific though.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 21:44
More common in south Sicily as far as i know but also founded in Catania, a girl who worked with me from Catania is called Spiteri.

Maleth
01-12-14, 21:44
Another is Spiteri. That one I think is west Sicily specific though.

Spiteri is a top 10 surname too (no dna tested on Malta project)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP4LkOoRdcE :)

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 21:45
G2 is a common haplogroup in Agrigento so I am not surprised some of these surnames score it, especially the ones that are common in that region. Malta is basically an extension of Sicily in many ways, though isolation may have allowed some genes to be preserved that were lost in Sicily for whatever reason.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 21:49
Malta have also the higher density population of Europe.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 22:01
The question I'd have is, Maltese surnames of Semitic origin.. since Maltese was a language once spoken in Sicily under Moorish rule, did these surnames once exist in Sicily and then get carried to Malta, where they now exist exclusively?

Hauteville
01-12-14, 22:08
Probably some of these surnames were italianized (Vadalà could be a good example) and other were deleted with the deportation/expulsion of the muslims of Sicily by Federico II.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 22:09
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Maltese_surnames

Of these, MOST I recognize as Sicilian. But a lot of them are of Semitic roots also. Not that you don't find an occasional Sicilian surname of Arabic roots (Saladino, Salafia, etc.) but not the ones on this list.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 22:17
One other surname question for Hauteville and Maleth -- how common are Greek origin surnames in Sicily and Malta? I've seen some that are obviously of Greek roots (names like "Garoppolo", "Sinopoli", "Tringali" and the like) that have equivalents in Greek, but are they common in Malta too?

Maleth
01-12-14, 22:26
There have been alot of misconceptions in regards to surnames. Surnames really derived from nicknames. The use of surnames became more important under norman rule who encouraged fixed family names as they held records for lands tenure. Previous historians always thought that semetic sounding surnames where automatically Arab or berber in origin. This is not the case. We have surnames like Micallef that is in the dna project and is I2 and in top ten surnames in Malta. Other very semetic sounding is Buhagiar (dna J2). Borg the most popular surname is J1. Butiegig Abdilla and so on. These surnames where nick names (more like trade names for the families that at some point changed from Father to son but with the new Norman systems they had to be inherited and kept from one generation to the other. These names where created when Siculo Arabic was the lingua franka (which is still alive in Maltese but getting weaker with each generation). So in other words the sound of a surname does not reflect ethnicity in any way but a family nick name during the Aglabite / fatmid era that was later concealed as a surname.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 22:27
Platania and Corica are both surnames of greek origins or Minniti or Caḷ or Greco etc. http://www.retaggio.it/onomastica/greci/

Maleth
01-12-14, 22:29
One other surname question for Hauteville and Maleth -- how common are Greek origin surnames in Sicily and Malta? I've seen some that are obviously of Greek roots (names like "Garoppolo", "Sinopoli", "Tringali" and the like) that have equivalents in Greek, but are they common in Malta too?

Greek surnames in Malta would be Grech (common surname R1b) Anastasi (Ev13) Papgiorcopolo (not very common) remember that the Knights of st john have brought with them over 4000 rhodians (Rhodes was given up to the Ottomans) who settled in the Vittoriosa area south to the grand harbour. I really do not know what surnames these people had

Hauteville
01-12-14, 22:32
And Malta has long been disputed between the phoenicians of Carthage and Siracusa.

Maleth
01-12-14, 22:34
Platania and Corica are both surnames of greek origins or Minniti or Cal� or Greco etc. http://www.retaggio.it/onomastica/greci/

Cefai, Archidiacono, Cilia, Anastasi are also well established surnames in Malta

Hauteville
01-12-14, 22:38
Cilia is a surname very common in south eastern Sicily (Ragusa, Modica, Vittoria, Comiso etc). This girl is called Cilia (a common face btw).
http://i58.tinypic.com/2ldhx8k.jpg

Maleth
01-12-14, 22:41
And Malta has long been disputed between the phoenicians of Carthage and Siracusa.

This is interesting. Where you got the info from? I know it that Malta became part of the Sicilian provence under Roman rule after the Second Punic war. However all the Maltese population had disappeared (or nearly I suppose) after the Aglabide (moors) invasion and left the Island as a Herba (ruin) as documented by Al hymardi and only repopulated back from Sicily a few decades before the Normans arrival. So hardly any dna can be traced prior to this time including the Megalitic temple builders.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 22:48
This is interesting. Where you got the info from? I know it that Malta became part of the Sicilian provence under Roman rule after the Second Punic war. However all the Maltese population had disappeared (or nearly I suppose) after the Aglabide (moors) invasion and left the Island as a Herba (ruin) as documented by Al hymardi and only repopulated back from Sicily a few decades before the Normans arrival. So hardly any dna can be traced prior to this time including the Megalitic temple builders.
He said to me one of the historians who works at the museum Paolo Orsi from Siracusa some time ago while i visited the museum.

Maleth
01-12-14, 22:52
He said to me one of the historians who works at the museum Paolo Orsi from Siracusa some time ago while i visited the museum.

there is so much to learn. Historical information has evolved in leaps and bounds from the days I was in high school. And Dna just makes the Picture so much clearer - linked to archaeological finds. We still have to find much more

oreo_cookie
02-12-14, 05:49
This is interesting. Where you got the info from? I know it that Malta became part of the Sicilian provence under Roman rule after the Second Punic war. However all the Maltese population had disappeared (or nearly I suppose) after the Aglabide (moors) invasion and left the Island as a Herba (ruin) as documented by Al hymardi and only repopulated back from Sicily a few decades before the Normans arrival. So hardly any dna can be traced prior to this time including the Megalitic temple builders.

So in other words most people in Malta are recent migrants from Sicily, from the past thousand years or so.