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oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 23:12
Not a poll, or any question. Just a place to post them, I think it might be a good idea since we have one with Sicilian photos.

Anyone have group photos of the Maltese? I am particularly interested to see if there are any unique phenotypical trends differentiating them from southern Italians. I'd doubt it, but I'd like to see. :)

Maleth
01-12-14, 23:43
Not a poll, or any question. Just a place to post them, I think it might be a good idea since we have one with Sicilian photos.

Anyone have group photos of the Maltese? I am particularly interested to see if there are any unique phenotypical trends differentiating them from southern Italians. I'd doubt it, but I'd like to see. :)

Good looking ones only? or the not so good looking too :grin:

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 23:53
Both would be best :)

Maleth
02-12-14, 00:16
Election 2012
6874

election 2004
6873

Maleth
02-12-14, 00:47
Maltese Ministers in parlament


6876687768786879

Maleth
02-12-14, 01:02
ministers in parlament
68826883688468856886

oreo_cookie
02-12-14, 04:37
Like I suspected they look pretty much identical to Sicilians and other southern Italians. Also some resemblance to Greeks.

Hauteville
02-12-14, 09:57
Maleth are these singers all maltese?
http://i62.tinypic.com/apco44.jpg

Maleth
02-12-14, 10:50
Maleth are these singers all maltese?
http://i62.tinypic.com/apco44.jpg

Yes, thats from the local eurofestival of 2 years ago. The first girl is Amber representing Malta this year with the song ' Warrior' she has a great voice I think


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfpUOYGqRGc

Maleth
02-12-14, 11:01
here is one of our favourties......Chiara Siracusa ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TABFvqzR1-M

Angela
02-12-14, 16:38
They're both really good, Maleth!

Maleth
02-12-14, 19:57
They're both really good, Maleth!

Thanks Angela. Not everybody cup of tea Music but which is. Defiantly a type I enjoy listening too.

Angela
02-12-14, 21:09
Thanks Angela. Not everybody cup of tea Music but which is. Defiantly a type I enjoy listening too.

There aren't that many types of music that I don't like, although bagpipe music does come to mind, no matter the nationality of the player. (Sorry, Hope! Sorry, my Emilian ancestors!:laughing:) I like classical, opera, jazz, blues, rock, folk, country, and pop too.

Each genre has its strengths, I think. It often depends on my mood. :smile:

Silver Linings Playbook is one of my new favorite movies. This is a really funny scene about that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rep0FUxfGTA

Maleth
02-12-14, 22:01
[QUOTE=Angela;445373]There aren't that many types of music that I don't like, although bagpipe music does come to mind, no matter the nationality of the player. (Sorry, Hope! Sorry, my Emilian ancestors!:laughing:) I like classical, opera, jazz, blues, rock, folk, country, and pop too.

Each genre has its strengths, I think. It often depends on my mood. :smile:

Silver Linings Playbook is one of my new favorite movies. This is a really funny scene about that...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rep0FUxfGTA

Haha Looks good, I guess there is truth in that too. I tend to go through extremes with Music too. I had a little Abba craze last week...Abba? :shocked: could not stop listening to them :smile:

Hauteville
02-12-14, 22:02
The contests of 2015 ;)
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20141121/local/Idiots-guide-to-2015-Malta-Eurovision-Song-Contest.544967

oreo_cookie
02-12-14, 22:15
Hauteville do you see any difference to southern Italians?

Hauteville
02-12-14, 22:16
Maleth is Caruana a common surname there?

Hauteville
02-12-14, 22:21
Hauteville do you see any difference to southern Italians?
I met several maltese in my life many in Ragusa but one woman is married with a guy of my town (more or less near Caltagirone her surname is Formosa) basically not so much differences. The only difference is that some "exotic looking" appear with more frequency in some maltese compared to sicilians or calabrians. I think they are very close even more strongly with the people of Pantelleria and Lampedusa though. Culturally i don't think, the only difference is they speak a different language but heavily influenced with deep southern italian dialects (and italian).

Maleth
02-12-14, 23:08
Maleth is Caruana a common surname there?

Yes Caruana is very popular.

Hauteville
02-12-14, 23:11
Another very popoular surname in Sicily mainly in Agrigento, Pantelleria and Pelagian islands.

Maleth
02-12-14, 23:13
The only difference is that some "exotic looking" appear with more frequency in some maltese compared to sicilians or calabrians. I think they are very close even more strongly with the people of Pantelleria and Lampedusa though. (and italian).

I think that is very true, I noticed that as well.

oreo_cookie
02-12-14, 23:15
There shouldn't be any differences between the southern part of Sicily, and Malta. Since most people living in Malta came from there.

Hauteville
02-12-14, 23:16
I have been in Malta for three times, but not for the discos or in the summer for the "bellativa" but for visiting the megalithic temples, La Valletta and Gozo. It's fascinating.

oreo_cookie
02-12-14, 23:20
The people of Crete and the southern Peloponnese in Greece also are quite similar to Sicilians and Maltese; probably a bit closer to people in Messina and Syracuse regions than to Agrigento or Caltanissetta though, assuming regional differences exist.

Maleth
02-12-14, 23:24
I have been in Malta for three times, but not for the discos or in the summer for the "bellativa" but for visiting the megalithic temples, La Valletta and Gozo. It's fascinating.

Let me know the next time you are over. Might show you a few spots that visitors do not normally see, like the cliffs that Roger of Hauteville and his army climbed to take Mdina (the old capital) My father is from Gozo some nice geological features there, especially this time of year when its green and crystal clear waters.

Hauteville
02-12-14, 23:24
Eheheh the modern siracusans are too proud to their greek heritage. You can find people now called with names like Archimede or Dionisio and it's not a joke. However Agrigento was the second big greek city of Sicily together with Selinunte. In Messina today there are the last greek-speaking of Sicily in one neighbor of the city, just 500 people unfortunately but some of them descendend from some peloponnesians who moved to Sicily during the ottoman conquest of Greece.

Hauteville
02-12-14, 23:29
Let me know the next time you are over. Might show you a few spots that visitors do not normally see, like the cliffs that Roger of Hauteville and his army climbed to take Mdina (the old capital) My father is from Gozo some nice geological features there, especially this time of year when its green and crystal clear waters.
I return you the courtesy if you come to redo a tour in Sicily.

Maleth
02-12-14, 23:30
The people of Crete and the southern Peloponnese in Greece also are quite similar to Sicilians and Maltese; probably a bit closer to people in Messina and Syracuse regions than to Agrigento or Caltanissetta though, assuming regional differences exist.

I was there last October to Mycenae and passed through Corith and visited also Delphi. Yes there is no doubt there are lots of similarity in looks espesially in the Pelopnnese region.

oreo_cookie
02-12-14, 23:31
Eheheh the modern siracusans are too proud to their greek heritage. You can find people now called with names like Archimede or Dionisio and it's not a joke. However Agrigento was the second big greek city of Sicily together with Selinunte. In Messina today there are the last greek-speaking of Sicily in one neighbor of the city, just 500 people unfortunately but some of them descendend from some peloponnesians who moved to Sicily during the ottoman conquest of Greece.

I myself have fairly recent (last 200 years) ancestry from Anatolian Greeks fleeing the Ottomans. They settled in Messina and then intermarried into Sicilian families.

oreo_cookie
02-12-14, 23:32
I was there last October to Mycenae and passed through Corith and visited also Delphi. Yes there is no doubt there are lots of similarity in looks espesially in the Pelopnnese region.

Every now and again you find a very light southern Greek reminiscent of the Slavic invasion, but overall they should be more or less identical to Sicilians and Maltese.

Hauteville
02-12-14, 23:33
I was there last October to Mycenae and passed through Corith and visited also Delphi. Yes there is no doubt there are lots of similarity in looks espesially in the Pelopnnese region.
A greek girl who has studied in Sicily said me the same. She tolds me that sicilians look a lot like peloponnesians. But it's not a surprise. What about Corinth? They founded Siracusa btw.

Maleth
02-12-14, 23:36
I return you the courtesy if you come to redo a tour in Sicily.

Thank you, that was a very nice experience and visiting Palermo (surely deserves more recognition) and staying overnight in Nebrodi Nature park in a refuge and hiking through the thick woods is something I crave to do again.

oreo_cookie
02-12-14, 23:41
A greek girl who has studied in Sicily said me the same. She tolds me that sicilians look a lot like peloponnesians. But it's not a surprise. What about Corinth? They founded Siracusa btw.

Probably not so much the northern Pelopoonnese (they might look more Balkanic) but I know that the people I've seen from Lakonia/Mani region do. My mom has a friend from there who looks southern Italian, as do his children (even though their mother is Irish).

Hauteville
02-12-14, 23:41
Thank you, that was a very nice experience and visiting Palermo (surely deserves more recognition) and staying overnight in Nebrodi Nature park in a refuge and hiking through the thick woods is something I crave to do again.
Move to Siracusa, Noto, Modica, Ragusa and Agrigento other beautiful places with barocco and greek temples.

Hauteville
02-12-14, 23:44
Probably not so much the northern Pelopoonnese (they might look more Balkanic) but I know that the people I've seen from Lakonia/Mani region do. My mom has a friend from there who looks southern Italian, as do his children (even though their mother is Irish).
I don't know, to be honest, because unfortunately i have never been in Greece. However she is the greek girl who she told me that.
http://i61.tinypic.com/wc1p4m.jpg
I'm curious to been in Crete to see if they look like agrigentini and gelesi or in Messenia, Calcide and Corinth to see if there are many similarities with the rest of the island.

Maleth
02-12-14, 23:46
A greek girl who has studied in Sicily said me the same. She tolds me that sicilians look a lot like peloponnesians. But it's not a surprise. What about Corinth? They founded Siracusa btw.

Same, but one can notice a difference (in my opinion) in looks crossing to the Peloponnese compared to Athens but nothing too drastic. The scenery is just amazing.

Hauteville
02-12-14, 23:48
Malta football team. However Andrei Agius and especially Paul Fenech look both a lot like two guys of my town. Unbelievable.
http://it.uefa.com/uefaeuro/qualifiers/season=2016/teams/team=88/index.html

Maleth
02-12-14, 23:50
Move to Siracusa, Noto, Modica, Ragusa and Agrigento other beautiful places with barocco and greek temples.

Of course there is so much more to do. It has to happen one day.

oreo_cookie
03-12-14, 00:11
I'm curious to been in Crete to see if they look like agrigentini and gelesi or in Messenia, Calcide and Corinth to see if there are many similarities with the rest of the island.

In my own opinion the people in Ragusa, Gela, and Agrigento look a lot like Cretans.

Hauteville
03-12-14, 00:28
When I will go to Crete and Peloponneso i will say my opinion.

Angela
03-12-14, 03:06
I don't know, to be honest, because unfortunately i have never been in Greece. However she is the greek girl who she told me that.
http://i61.tinypic.com/wc1p4m.jpg
I'm curious to been in Crete to see if they look like agrigentini and gelesi or in Messenia, Calcide and Corinth to see if there are many similarities with the rest of the island.

Is the video about Iliana Papageorgiou, Miss Greece?

She looks a bit like Maria Callas in this picture.
http://i53.tinypic.com/mwcpqf.jpg

Hauteville
03-12-14, 09:45
Is the video about Iliana Papageorgiou, Miss Greece?

She looks a bit like Maria Callas in this picture.
http://i53.tinypic.com/mwcpqf.jpg
I think yes i will ask her.

Hauteville
03-12-14, 09:47
I myself have fairly recent (last 200 years) ancestry from Anatolian Greeks fleeing the Ottomans. They settled in Messina and then intermarried into Sicilian families.
Strange, the greek community of Messina descendent of the inhabitans of Corone and they moved to Messina in 1450-1550 not in the last 200 years.

Anche il XVI secolo (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/XVI_secolo) fu caratterizzato da continui flussi migratori dalla Grecia: tra il 1534 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/1534) e il 1534 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/1534) vi fu un notevole flusso migratorio da parte di abitanti di Corone (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corone), cittadina greca del Peloponneso (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponneso) finita in mano agli invasori ottomani

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greci_di_Messina

Hauteville
03-12-14, 09:50
There shouldn't be any differences between the southern part of Sicily, and Malta. Since most people living in Malta came from there.
Not all maltese descendend from southern sicilians. Surnames like Bonnici (catanese), Abela (siracusano), Vella (palermitano), Falzon(e) from Caltanissetta are quite common in Malta and they are not from Agrigento or Gela.

Mars
03-12-14, 12:00
The contests of 2015 ;)
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20141121/local/Idiots-guide-to-2015-Malta-Eurovision-Song-Contest.544967
Karen Debattista reminds me the "reconstructed" maltese woman from 5500 years ago
6890
6891

Maleth
03-12-14, 12:22
Malta football team. However Andrei Agius and especially Paul Fenech look both a lot like two guys of my town. Unbelievable.
http://it.uefa.com/uefaeuro/qualifiers/season=2016/teams/team=88/index.html

I presume Andrew Hog is not Maltese born, Probably married here, as those looks are rarely found locally and probably would come through mixed marriages. I would say Anrei Agius would fall more into one end of the Maltese mix. Paul Fenech to me is not typical Maltese and leans more to central continental Italians (Quite a typical look on Central, norther continental Italy. (My opinion of course). Would you consider Paul Fenech look typical of any region in Sicily?

Maleth
03-12-14, 12:39
Not all maltese descendend from southern sicilians. Surnames like Bonnici (catanese), Abela (siracusano), Vella (palermitano), Falzon(e) from Caltanissetta are quite common in Malta and they are not from Agrigento or Gela.

During the Aragonese period there has also been a number of Catalan surnames introduced mainly through the stationing of the garrisons. Two I can think of are Cardona and Herera but there are some more.

Question for you Hautville. Do you personally notice different phenotypes from different regions around Sicily? Its a big Island. It happens in Malta and its such a small Island. Example sometimes one can tell the difference between Agrarian Maltese and People round the harbour area, Although the difference is nearly impossible to notice in most areas now adays due to accelerated mix of the last decades.

Maleth
03-12-14, 12:47
Karen Debattista reminds me the "reconstructed" maltese woman from 5500 years ago
6890
6891

Unfortunatly no Dna have been tested on these bone remains, and would not even be considered in the new studies being conducted at present - so sad. The skin colour and hair texture have just been a rough guess so the skin could have been darker or lighter and the hair could have been curly, wavy or just as it is since no one can read (as yet) the DNA of these megalithic temples builders. I am inclined to believe they were G's but nothing can be excluded of course.

Hauteville
03-12-14, 12:58
I presume Andrew Hog is not Maltese born, Probably married here, as those looks are rarely found locally and probably would come through mixed marriages. I would say Anrei Agius would fall more into one end of the Maltese mix. Paul Fenech to me is not typical Maltese and leans more to central continental Italians (Quite a typical look on Central, norther continental Italy. (My opinion of course). Would you consider Paul Fenech look typical of any region in Sicily?
The same is Bjorn Kristensen. Paul Fenech is a kind of look that you can find around with some frequency. Not the most typical but not even an atypical look.

Hauteville
03-12-14, 13:01
During the Aragonese period there has also been a number of Catalan surnames introduced mainly through the stationing of the garrisons. Two I can think of are Cardona and Herera but there are some more.

Question for you Hautville. Do you personally notice different phenotypes from different regions around Sicily? Its a big Island. It happens in Malta and its such a small Island. Example sometimes one can tell the difference between Agrarian Maltese and People round the harbour area, Although the difference is nearly impossible to notice in most areas now adays due to accelerated mix of the last decades.
The same Cardona and Incardona are quite common surnames in Sicily, Herrera much more rarely but sometimes appears among the population, idem for many other surnames with spanish sound like Martinez, Fichera, Cabrera, Ribera, Barbera and Vasquez.
The difference in the look is more between high class and low class here. Although some areas can be lighter and other darker, Palermo is a fantastic pot in this sense but i have noticed an high percentage of blue eyes in Montalbano Elicona particularly.

oreo_cookie
03-12-14, 16:50
In Sicily there is a higher frequency of lighter eyes in Palermo and inland regions (Enna and whereabouts), and people from the southern coast, Trapani, and Messina are darker and have a greater likelihood of having "exotic" influences. That's the difference I'd expect, but overall it'd be minor.

Also the eastern coast would have a lot of people who look classically Greek.

Hauteville
03-12-14, 19:36
In the Nebrodi mountains (never conquered by arabs btw) the frequency of light eyes is surprising high (i have seen that personally) especially in Montalbano Elicona and Mistretta but also in the cities were the lombard dialect is preserved like Novara di Sicilia and San Fratello.

Hauteville
03-12-14, 22:07
However Maleth what do you mean with this difference between agrarian and harbour area?i'm curious to that.

oreo_cookie
03-12-14, 23:44
In the Nebrodi mountains (never conquered by arabs btw) the frequency of light eyes is surprising high (i have seen that personally) especially in Montalbano Elicona and Mistretta but also in the cities were the lombard dialect is preserved like Novara di Sicilia and San Fratello.

That is probably due to Lombard influence and the lack of Phoenicians and other Near Eastern influences.

Hauteville
03-12-14, 23:55
Obvious since phoenicians founded two or three colonies (if the theory of Solunto phoenician is right) in Sicily and not in the Nebrodi area. Btw a brief of history of Malta in italian.
http://www.informagiovani-italia.com/storia-di-malta.htm

Hauteville
03-12-14, 23:56
Maleth in which period Malta was depopulated and repopulated with people from Sicily?

Hauteville
03-12-14, 23:59
However back in the topic, some maltese beauties from Miss Malta.
https://www.google.it/search?q=miss+malta&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=dId_VPIGjuto7NOBoA4&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1517&bih=714&dpr=0.9

Maleth
04-12-14, 00:43
However Maleth what do you mean with this difference between agrarian and harbour area?i'm curious to that.

To make it very simple the agrarin Maltese are the original People that arrived from Sicily in the repopulation project during the Aglabide (Moors/Arab) period who spoke Siculo Arabic probably like the area they came from in Sicily. (i dont think there is any record to who and were in Sicily these people came from). These people would have started to first Villages that later formed other villages as the population increased Adding to this population later came the settlement of barons that divided all the land between them but payed tributes to the king of Sicily, thus creating the 'universita' which was the sort of parlament based in Mdina (citta nobile). This was the time when the Island saw a resurgence of Aragonese garrisons to guard the Three Castles. That is Mdina, Gozo (Citadella) and the one instead of present day fort Sant Angelo. at the harbour entrance. (there was only one small town Birgu at that time as population preferred to live inland for safety.

With the arrival of Knights they decided to increase the population around the harbour and made Birgu their home (and not the medival town of Mdina). Here started a great industry in building ships (the Knights were famous for) and became richer through piracy. This attracted a new population and new immigrants. There have been numerous marriages from now Latin speaking Sicily, Italy and also France, and therefore created a kind of new society compared to the people who lived in the Countryside. This new society kept on growing with eventually the building of Valletta (after the victory of great siege of 1565. Today the whole harbour area has become like a big town mainly dominated by these industrial kind of people living on Maritime trade (compared to the Maltese living off agriculture and later proved to be good builders in the use of stone)

In my opinion these were like two different societies (kind of city people and country people). Even the language was spoken differently. People in the Country are still very faithful to the Siculo/Arabic with heavy and harsh accents, but People round the city has latinized much more the language and later Anglasised it (through the British rule) albeit still very semetic in its structure. If one looks well can also see differences in Phenotypes between these two societies but of course they are all termed Maltese.

Maleth
04-12-14, 00:55
Maleth in which period Malta was depopulated and repopulated with people from Sicily?

It must have been in the 1000's a few decades before Count Roger took the islands over. It would be interesting to see if there is any documentation in the National Archived in Palermo about the subject and to see from which region the new migrants came from.

Al Hymardi wrote that after the Aglabaid attack on the Island it was left as a Herba (Ruin) and only visited occasionally from Sicilian fisher men to fish in its waters and to collect Wood and wild honey. It also mentioned that donkeys lived wildly (probably runaways from the previous population during the Byzantime era)

oreo_cookie
04-12-14, 01:08
Obvious since phoenicians founded two or three colonies (if the theory of Solunto phoenician is right) in Sicily and not in the Nebrodi area. Btw a brief of history of Malta in italian.
http://www.informagiovani-italia.com/storia-di-malta.htm

I notice that there can be Palermitans with light coloring, but in terms of features they often have a Near Eastern element to their look that is weaker in the more Greek areas of the island. My great grandmother was from Palermo.. light skinned and blue eyed, but with features that you might have taken her for an Ashkenazi Jew.

Hauteville
04-12-14, 01:26
To make it very simple the agrarin Maltese are the original People that arrived from Sicily in the repopulation project during the Aglabide (Moors/Arab) period who spoke Siculo Arabic probably like the area they came from in Sicily. (i dont think there is any record to who and were in Sicily these people came from). These people would have started to first Villages that later formed other villages as the population increased Adding to this population later came the settlement of barons that divided all the land between them but payed tributes to the king of Sicily, thus creating the 'universita' which was the sort of parlament based in Mdina (citta nobile). This was the time when the Island saw a resurgence of Aragonese garrisons to guard the Three Castles. That is Mdina, Gozo (Citadella) and the one instead of present day fort Sant Angelo. at the harbour entrance. (there was only one small town Birgu at that time as population preferred to live inland for safety.

With the arrival of Knights they decided to increase the population around the harbour and made Birgu their home (and not the medival town of Mdina). Here started a great industry in building ships (the Knights were famous for) and became richer through piracy. This attracted a new population and new immigrants. There have been numerous marriages from now Latin speaking Sicily, Italy and also France, and therefore created a kind of new society compared to the people who lived in the Countryside. This new society kept on growing with eventually the building of Valletta (after the victory of great siege of 1565. Today the whole harbour area has become like a big town mainly dominated by these industrial kind of people living on Maritime trade (compared to the Maltese living off agriculture and later proved to be good builders in the use of stone)

In my opinion these were like two different societies (kind of city people and country people). Even the language was spoken differently. People in the Country are still very faithful to the Siculo/Arabic with heavy and harsh accents, but People round the city has latinized much more the language and later Anglasised it (through the British rule) albeit still very semetic in its structure. If one looks well can also see differences in Phenotypes between these two societies but of course they are all termed Maltese.
Thanks. So for example a people from Birkrkara and a people from La Valletta can have some phenotypically differences?

Maleth
04-12-14, 10:19
Thanks. So for example a people from Birkrkara and a people from La Valletta can have some phenotypically differences?

Not so evident today because of the intermixing due the urban sprawl. During world war 2 many 'City' People dispersed as refuges into the country due to heavy continuous bombing because of the harbour itself. Many of them did never return back and the areas relegated to poor districts irrelevant to the rich historic heritage. Today we are seeing a regeneration. Today 'Greater Valletta' ecompases example what used to be agrarian town such as Birkirkara and Qormi. (this puts a smile on my face because the locals hate this terminology and want their districts towns on their own rights but Visitors call all the area Valletta). I believe it would have been much more evident say 100 years ago.

Having said that, if anyone tries hard enough it is possible

Maleth
04-12-14, 10:26
However back in the topic, some maltese beauties from Miss Malta.
https://www.google.it/search?q=miss+malta&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=dId_VPIGjuto7NOBoA4&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1517&bih=714&dpr=0.9

Eyyy!...sexy :)

Hauteville
04-12-14, 10:46
Thanks Maleth, in the past there was the theory that maltese is a remnant language of ancient phoenician, do you like this theory? However my favourite girl in this album is Joanne Galea. http://i59.tinypic.com/2rneigw.jpg

Hauteville
04-12-14, 10:47
Edwige Fenech a famous maltese-italian actress.
http://i57.tinypic.com/2a66oup.jpg

Maleth
04-12-14, 12:07
Thanks Maleth, in the past there was the theory that maltese is a remnant language of ancient phoenician, do you like this theory?

Maltese language has been widely debated, however I believe that there is a consensus that the language is most similar to Tunisian dialect mixed with higher arabic.

The Tunisian dialect could also have Phoenician characteristics (I presume some berber too) anyway as Cartage was located there.

The use of higher arabic can suggest that it was a learned language during the Aglabite take over as over taking being the lingua franka. Example when people learn English they are thought high English and not the various English dialects. Most British people do not speak High English but dialects the heaviest would the Scottish. The English spoken in Malta is a weird English version with small percentage mainly in the north harbour area, speaking it on a daily basis....nick named 'pepe'

The Phoenician theory would be more political to dissociate to anything arabic. One cannot disassociate a trace of Phoenician words in the language (that is extinct today) taking in consideration that the Phoenicians have been both in Malta and Western Sicily for 100's of year, (the difference is that Malta was depopulated at some point, so the language could have only arrived from Sicily. I wonder what language did the then Maltese people speak during the long Byzantine rule with the split of the Roman empire?) followed by Carthaginian which is an offshoot of Phoenicia. So I would presume that some areas were pretty familiar or found it easy to take on the new language.

Look at Sicily today, although there are traces of Arabic like Spanish but the language is overwhelmingly Latin. So a language can overtake another in a relatively short period of time.

At some point there was a strong movement for Italian to be the language of Malta (it was the official language of the knights of st john, even though the French had three languages in the order making it the biggest group within the order) and at some point even during British rule there were a few papers that came out in the Italian language (again something more promoted by the 'city' people . Even the courts were all in Italian. The British did not like that and practically the Italian language movement disintegrated with the advents of world war 2 when Musolini decided to Join the Germans to bombard Malta. The Maltese language (were the strongest support was with the 'country' people) was even promoted by the British and today both languages are national languages of Malta. The irony is today around 66% of Maltese speak fluent Italian (probably due to the many Italian tv stations we receive, probably more then ever before, and the cultural exchanges between Sicily and Malta have defiantly increased since world war 2.

Maleth
04-12-14, 12:18
Edwige Fenech a famous maltese-italian actress.
http://i57.tinypic.com/2a66oup.jpg

I remember Edwige Fenech, she was very popular.....and kinky too :)

Hauteville
04-12-14, 12:35
Considering that the maltese language is heavily influenced by sicilian and italian though.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_maltese

"perché ha circa il 60% di vocaboli provenienti dall'italiano (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_italiana) e soprattutto dalla lingua siciliana (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_siciliana)"

Maleth
04-12-14, 13:17
Considering that the maltese language is heavily influenced by sicilian and italian though.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_maltese

"perch� ha circa il 60% di vocaboli provenienti dall'italiano (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_italiana) e soprattutto dalla lingua siciliana (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_siciliana)"

Indeed there is no doubt.
(senza dubbio = bla dubju) :smile:

Hauteville
04-12-14, 13:22
What italian and particularly sicilian channales there are in Malta?

Maleth
04-12-14, 14:16
What italian and particularly sicilian channales there are in Malta?

I have cable and on the most basic package one gets 8 Italian channels like Rai, Mediasat, TV moda, canale 5, Rete3, Iris and so on. We used to have ariel reception when I was younger and got man stations from Sicily. But i do not know the present ones by name but they come through ariel or even satalite. Only reason I have cable as I can have it on more tv's not just one.

Hauteville
04-12-14, 14:45
And for that many maltese speak italian with problems. During the english dominion was forbidden the use of italian language i reckon.

Maleth
04-12-14, 14:58
And for that many maltese speak italian with problems. During the english dominion was forbidden the use of italian language i reckon.

Indeed some Maltese were even exiled and as a direct result of the war the alta societa switched from Italian to English, and still prevalent today. It reflects in everything here, footballs support and even political parties, the Labour party in essence is pro British and the Nationalist party (Christian democrats) are pro Italian. But the gap is narrowing as the events of history becomes more distant

Hauteville
04-12-14, 15:01
The maltese girl with surname Formosa told me that in 1930 circa there was a pro italian revolt against the british government.

Maleth
04-12-14, 16:51
The maltese girl with surname Formosa told me that in 1930 circa there was a pro italian revolt against the british government.


I think she is talking about 'sette Giugno' event http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sette_Giugno

Hauteville
04-12-14, 18:31
I think she is talking about 'sette Giugno' event http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sette_Giugno
Probably yes.

oreo_cookie
04-12-14, 19:48
Here are some Sicilians from Palermo, can they fit in Malta? I chose a large group. Warning is they are tan, probably sit on the beach all day lol.

They look a bit different than the people in my family from Messina. A bit like Cypriots perhaps but not all the way?

6895

Hauteville
04-12-14, 20:35
Palermo is not homogeneous as you think at all.

oreo_cookie
04-12-14, 20:46
Palermo is not homogeneous as you think at all.

It's not, that was just one photo. I was curious if they fit in Malta is all :)

Maleth
05-12-14, 06:19
Here are some Sicilians from Palermo, can they fit in Malta? I chose a large group. Warning is they are tan, probably sit on the beach all day lol.

They look a bit different than the people in my family from Messina. A bit like Cypriots perhaps but not all the way?

6895

Easily pass as Maltese no doubt. If someone sits on the beach all day they will be MUCH darker then that believe me....:)

Ahhhh when can I have that fortune....seems like more stuck uder the AC in an office :(

Here are some more group photos

68986899690069016902

Maleth
05-12-14, 06:53
69046905690669076908

:cool-v::heart:

Hauteville
05-12-14, 09:24
Eheheh where i live there are some people with the obsession to be overtanned.

Mars
05-12-14, 11:28
I have a question... Pardon me if you already talked about it :-) Malta is the only country in Europe where a semitic language is currently spoken as national language. Where does it come from? I heard it's similar to a tunisian dialect, but I'm not sure about it. Malta has been a stronghold of christianity for several centuries (the Knights of Malta), so it's quite surprising to me.

Maleth
05-12-14, 14:14
I have a question... Pardon me if you already talked about it :-) Malta is the only country in Europe where a semitic language is currently spoken as national language. Where does it come from? I heard it's similar to a tunisian dialect, but I'm not sure about it. Malta has been a stronghold of christianity for several centuries (the Knights of Malta), so it's quite surprising to me.

For many centuries Malta was part of Sicily and shared the same fate in History until the arrivals of Knights of St John, that were defeated by the ottomans in Rhodes. Part of the history prior to this was the Muslim occupation (Aglabite = Berbers/Arabs from Tunisia) have besieged Sicily (and Malta who was part of Sicily) with the aid of the Moors from Spain. for the longest (as some regions spent less time under this control) for approx 200 years. During this period Arabic was established as the lingua franca of these occupied regions. The expulsions and forced conversions did happen until later tho under king Fredrick II in 1240 so the language had a good time to get a grip.

However unlike Sicily Malta (which of course is much smaller) had remained totally uninhabited since on the Aglabid attack on the Island was either taken into slavery or killed and left the Byzantine castle (today Mdina) in ruines (as documented by Al Hymardi). Malta was repopulated at a later stage (no one knows when exactly) from Sicily. The new people by then spoke what is called a Siculo/Arabic. This is the language that Modern Maltese is derived from. The only difference in Modern Maltese that as time went by some 60% of the vocabulary has become latinised and to a lesser extent Anglicized too, but conjugated in a Semitic structure.

There have been efforts especially since the departure of the Knights by pro Italian movements for Italian to be the state language and even until the beginning of British rule they were moving forward. In fact lots of poetry, the law courts and some news papers were all in Italian, however the Siculo/Arabic which has developed to Maltese was still very strong in the Countryside (I call them agrarian Villages). However the pro Italian movments were crushed during and after world war II due to Musolini joined forces with Nazi Germany, and the Now Maltese was revived and British was replaced as the language used by the societa alta.

Today both Maltese and English are National Languages

This is what Maltese sound like if you are interested both in speach and song :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD1RbprRM3M

Mars
05-12-14, 15:01
However unlike Sicily Malta (which of course is much smaller) had remained totally uninhabited since on the Aglabid attack on the Island was either taken into slavery or killed and left the Byzantine castle (today Mdina) in ruines (as documented by Al Hymardi). Malta was repopulated at a later stage (no one knows when exactly) from Sicily. The new people by then spoke what is called a Siculo/Arabic. This is the language that Modern Maltese is derived from.

This is extremely interesting... So, were these sicilian colonists maybe the last arabo-sicilians (arabized sicilians, or descendents of the berber/arab invaders of medieval Sicily)?

Maleth
05-12-14, 15:20
This is extremely interesting... So, were these sicilian colonists maybe the last arabo-sicilians (arabized sicilians, or descendents of the berber/arab invaders of medieval Sicily)?

Islamisized Sicilians I would say as the DNA states. Berber dna peeks at 2 % in Malta and I believe also in Sicily, and that could also be part prior since it is found in very rare freaquencies in Europe that never had Berber/Arab rule. Since then, after the Norman conquest Both Islands it was once again a period of Transition peaked by the Aragonese / Swabians (hofenstaufen) when Muslims (with Jews) were either forced to convert or expelled. Sicily was totally Latinised (with just traces of Arabic like Spanish) more so with the Unification with Italy, and Malta retained the Siculo/Arabo that developed into Modern Maltese

bicicleur
05-12-14, 16:41
Islamisized Sicilians I would say as the DNA states. Berber dna peeks at 2 % in Malta and I believe also in Sicily, and that could also be part prior since it is found in very rare freaquencies in Europe that never had Berber/Arab rule. Since then, after the Norman conquest Both Islands it was once again a period of Transition peaked by the Aragonese / Swabians (hofenstaufen) when Muslims (with Jews) were either forced to convert or expelled. Sicily was totally Latinised (with just traces of Arabic like Spanish) more so with the Unification with Italy, and Malta retained the Siculo/Arabo that developed into Modern Maltese

i was told they were non-islam arabs, they helped the malteser tempeliers, crusaders resist resist the Turkish naval expansion
they eventualy succeeded after a long siege, when finaly the Turks got the plague

Maleth
05-12-14, 17:33
i was told they were non-islam arabs, they helped the malteser tempeliers, crusaders resist resist the Turkish naval expansion
they eventualy succeeded after a long siege, when finaly the Turks got the plague

I did not get your post right bicicleur. Who was non-Islam arabs? The people that came from Sicily was the base stock of Modern Maltese population although there have been some genetic inputs as time went by. The Maltese fought with the knights (estimated 6000 Maltese died in Battle) on the Ottoman onslaught that started in May 1565 till they retreated defeated in September same year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rubruP9p4i8

oreo_cookie
05-12-14, 18:19
Maltese are genetically similar to today's Sicilians, except a few percentages more North African than the Sicilian average -- but NOT necessarily more so than the people in Agrigento and Trapani regions whose results I have seen.. which implies to me that there are places in Sicily today where the people are still genetically the same as a Maltese, and places where they never quite would have been (places that didn't send many people to Malta, like Messina and Enna for instance).

Maleth
05-12-14, 18:44
From the dna breakdowns I have seen I cannot recall seeing a higher percentage of Berber / North African M-81 then in Sicily, however J1 at 8% seems to be higher then the maximum of 5% that seems to be found not only in Sicily but also mainland Italy....if its anything to go by. At the same time it seems Malta has a few percentages higher of R1b compared to Sicily but putting all together it makes the differneces superficial

Hauteville
05-12-14, 19:23
Maltese are genetically similar to today's Sicilians, except a few percentages more North African than the Sicilian average -- but NOT necessarily more so than the people in Agrigento and Trapani regions whose results I have seen.. which implies to me that there are places in Sicily today where the people are still genetically the same as a Maltese, and places where they never quite would have been (places that didn't send many people to Malta, like Messina and Enna for instance).
In Lazaridis et al most of the sicilian samples are from Trapani and still maltese are more north african admixed.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29427-Analysing-Eurasian-amp-African-autosomal-DNA-from-Lazaridis-et-al-2013

Hauteville
05-12-14, 19:24
From the dna breakdowns I have seen I cannot recall seeing a higher percentage of Berber / North African M-81 then in Sicily, however J1 at 8% seems to be higher then the maximum of 5% that seems to be found not only in Sicily but also mainland Italy....if its anything to go by. At the same time it seems Malta has a few percentages higher of R1b compared to Sicily but putting all together it makes the differneces superficial
E-M81 Ydna of Sicily is from 1,5% to 2,1% change a bit from study to study. J1 is from a minimum of 3% at maximum of 6% overall but with the peak of Agrigento 11%.

Hauteville
05-12-14, 19:27
This is extremely interesting... So, were these sicilian colonists maybe the last arabo-sicilians (arabized sicilians, or descendents of the berber/arab invaders of medieval Sicily)?
Probably yes, the arab-sicilian is extinct in 1245 with the expulsion of the last muslims in Federico II era.

Maleth
05-12-14, 19:47
In Lazaridis et al most of the sicilian samples are from Trapani and still maltese are more north african admixed.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29427-Analysing-Eurasian-amp-African-autosomal-DNA-from-Lazaridis-et-al-2013

There seem to be lots of figures thrown all over the place never knowing which one to believe :)

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/abs/ejhg2008120a.html

from http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25067-Genetic-history-of-Sicily-Greeks-Arabs-Normans-and-others

although the Lazardi study seems to be more recent....but still why do figures change so much. Probably because of very small sampling.

Best of Sicily web site, have a dna site but it seems very out dated http://www.bestofsicily.com/genetics.htm

and also the wikipedia on Maltese geneolgy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_people have horrible outdated dna information

Angela
05-12-14, 19:58
From the dna breakdowns I have seen I cannot recall seeing a higher percentage of Berber / North African M-81 then in Sicily, however J1 at 8% seems to be higher then the maximum of 5% that seems to be found not only in Sicily but also mainland Italy....if its anything to go by. At the same time it seems Malta has a few percentages higher of R1b compared to Sicily but putting all together it makes the differneces superficial



Maleth, as has been pointed out elsewhere, J1 undoubtedly has as many subclades as any other y lineage. Unfortunately, all the money is going to R1a and R1b, so we don't know about them and we certainly don't have a lot of studies testing for them. The only one of which I am aware that broke it down at least into P58 and the rest for Italy is the Boattini et al studyto which I have linked numerous times.

Since you may have access to a lot of data from Malta related projects you perhaps have a better handle on the occurrence of specific subclades in Malta. Of course, as always, these kind of "consumer" based sets of data may not be representative of the population as a whole, and therefore don't carry the same weight as randomly chosen samples in scientific studies, and from the ones I have seen, people often don't pay for the full subclade resolution, so it's not going to provide a full and accurate picture.

If someone wants to generally know the distribution of J1 in Europe, Maciamo has provided a map:
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

There is also one for E-M81.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-M81.gif

Now, as discussed, much of the J1 in Europe carries more of a "northern Near East" versus "Arabia" signature, and so may be more likely to be Neolithic in origin, most of it, indeed, in areas that have no connection to the Muslim invasions, including some areas in Italy. There is no doubt, however, as to the origin of E-M81, the distinctly Berber clade which is the best way to track migration from North Africa into Europe, and it is not highest in the eastern Mediterranean.

(Just generally, I think any discussion of these things has to be based not on what people may have "heard" or "believe" based on their own unreliable and unverifiable collections of data, but on history and genetics, as most of us have been attempting to do on this as on other threads. I would also, depending on the poster, and difficult as it may be to believe, not take even links to papers as proof for some assertions. It's difficult to credit it, I know, but some posters have apparently either not read the papers to which they link, or they are hoping that you haven't or won't read them. :)

Angela
05-12-14, 20:12
There seem to be lots of figures thrown all over the place never knowing which one to believe :)

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/abs/ejhg2008120a.html

from http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25067-Genetic-history-of-Sicily-Greeks-Arabs-Normans-and-others

although the Lazardi study seems to be more recent....but still why do figures change so much. Probably because of very small sampling.

Best of Sicily web site, have a dna site but it seems very out dated http://www.bestofsicily.com/genetics.htm

and also the wikipedia on Maltese geneolgy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_people have horrible outdated dna information

It's just my two cents, Maleth, but this field is changing so quickly that a paper written five years ago, or even two years ago, even though professionally and honestly and intelligently done, and even though some insights are still very valuable, can be very out of date based on what we know in 2014.

Then, even papers produced in 2014 can be abysmal because the authors don't have the proper data or haven't fully grasped some of the newest work...just take a look at Shriner et al 2014, discussed on this Board.

All the information has to be sifted and weighed (like all the baking ingredients that are sitting unattended on my kitchen counter because I am responding to these posts!:grin:), and evaluated as logically and with as few pre-conceptions or biases as possible. When trying to evaluate the analyses of others, it's as well to give less credence to those with an "ax to grind" if you know that expression. There are some people with very questionable motives interested in genetic genealogy, unfortunately.

Also, the most important thing is not to be too arrogant or close minded (which you are not), because none of this is set in stone. It is changing all the time.

Hauteville
05-12-14, 20:24
Lazaridis it's based on autosomal, Di Gaetano is on Y-Dna.


It's just my two cents, Maleth, but this field is changing so quickly that a paper written five years ago, or even two years ago, even though professionally and honestly and intelligently done, and even though some insights are still very valuable, can be very out of date based on what we know in 2014.

Indeed, Di Gaetano signed 18% of R1b in eastern Sicily but in Sarno is very high in Catania city.

Hauteville
05-12-14, 20:30
And the autosomal results change often from people to people from the same area. Oreo_cookie in Lazaridis and MDLP K23 there are sicilian samples from Siracusa, Agrigento (only in MDLP K23) and Trapani and they have basically the same percentage of north african admixture.

Maleth
05-12-14, 20:34
Since you may have access to a lot of data from Malta related projects you perhaps have a better handle on the occurrence of specific subclades in Malta. Of course, as always, these kind of "consumer" based sets of data may not be representative of the population as a whole, and therefore don't carry the same weight as randomly chosen samples in scientific studies, and from the ones I have seen, people often don't pay for the full subclade resolution, so it's not going to provide a full and accurate picture.

Thats very true Angela, while one can get a picture of a general trend it still remains pretty vague with the deeper testing upgrades. With any other data collection presented on papers I have always been very skeptical when one sees the sample sizes taken to reflect a whole country. On the positive side I believe that Dna testing is still in its infancy and in comparision, it did come a long way. I think data all in all is improving from one year to another, so its just a matter of time to get the desired accurate ideal picture.

Angela whats your take on ancient dna testing in warmer climates? Is it really such a problem compared to testing being done to the North of the Alps? Love to know your opinion.

oreo_cookie
05-12-14, 22:12
In Lazaridis et al most of the sicilian samples are from Trapani and still maltese are more north african admixed.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29427-Analysing-Eurasian-amp-African-autosomal-DNA-from-Lazaridis-et-al-2013

Where did you see they are from Trapani? Anyway Sicilians have slightly more Caucasus and the same amount of SW Asian as do Maltese, but you're right, less North African.

Notice Greeks have the same amount of Caucasus also, but less SW Asian and almost no North African. That probably means the sample came from the mainland.

Hauteville
05-12-14, 23:00
Where did you see they are from Trapani?
In that map the points are in Trapani and Siracusa and one sample from north Calabria.
http://i58.tinypic.com/5oatzp.jpg
We have also more mesolithic european but however the differences are minimal and is consistent with the explanation of Maleth about the maltese population. Cypriots have quasi no mesolithic euro and Greece are mostly from the north and other samples from Athens, no south greeks and islanders unfortunately.

oreo_cookie
05-12-14, 23:42
In that map the points are in Trapani and Siracusa and one sample from north Calabria.
http://i58.tinypic.com/5oatzp.jpg
We have also more mesolithic european but however the differences are minimal and is consistent with the explanation of Maleth about the maltese population. Cypriots have quasi no mesolithic euro and Greece are mostly from the north and other samples from Athens, no south greeks and islanders unfortunately.


Island Greeks would be similar to Sicilians, more so than the Greek sample is -- the only difference might be no North African (they do not score any in Dodecad usually) and possibly slightly more Caucasian. But yes, Maltese have slightly less Mesolithic European, but then again I suspect if the Sicilian sample was from Agrigento the same would be true compared to the average.

Also, Messina and Catania might be similar to Crete, if the three were sampled, based on past results I have seen.

Angela
06-12-14, 01:30
Thats very true Angela, while one can get a picture of a general trend it still remains pretty vague with the deeper testing upgrades. With any other data collection presented on papers I have always been very skeptical when one sees the sample sizes taken to reflect a whole country. On the positive side I believe that Dna testing is still in its infancy and in comparision, it did come a long way. I think data all in all is improving from one year to another, so its just a matter of time to get the desired accurate ideal picture.

Angela whats your take on ancient dna testing in warmer climates? Is it really such a problem compared to testing being done to the North of the Alps? Love to know your opinion.

Sorry, just got back to this...

I don't know anything specific, unfortunately, other than something said in a recent paper about it looking more hopeful given some advances they've made recently.

The BEAN project was supposed to be working on Anatolian samples, which should be able to provide decent results one would think, but other than the Sandra Wilde paper on the Catacomb culture people etc., they've been very quiet.

Maleth
06-12-14, 10:27
Sorry, just got back to this...

I don't know anything specific, unfortunately, other than something said in a recent paper about it looking more hopeful given some advances they've made recently.

The BEAN project was supposed to be working on Anatolian samples, which should be able to provide decent results one would think, but other than the Sandra Wilde paper on the Catacomb culture people etc., they've been very quiet.

Thank you Angela, as always eloquent, and only interested in true facts of history with what ever technology and tools available at the time and getting to the most reliable sources available possible. There are tons of DNA to be deciphered to the South of the Alps, to have a complete picture. Exciting times ahead. :wary2:

Hauteville
06-12-14, 17:52
There are tons of DNA to be deciphered to the South of the Alps, to have a complete picture.
And not only south of the Alps imo but everywhere. :grin:

Maleth
07-12-14, 08:30
:grin:
And not only south of the Alps imo but everywhere. :grin:

No doubt....just to remain on an European contest....:), but so much in the Middle east and all the early civilizations there, not to mention it was probably the first land to roam on, as homo sapiens started traveling out of Africa 60,000 years ago (or the dates have changed now?, I have to keep on checking updates) :grin:. I am particularly interested in the Natufuians who seem to have covered much of the costal area and the inner parts, prior to all the civilisations we know of - Maybe descendants of the Canaanites?.

Angela
07-12-14, 22:30
:grin:

No doubt....just to remain on an European contest....:), but so much in the Middle east and all the early civilizations there, not to mention it was probably the first land to roam on, as homo sapiens started traveling out of Africa 60,000 years ago (or the dates have changed now?, I have to keep on checking updates) :grin:. I am particularly interested in the Natufuians who seem to have covered much of the costal area and the inner parts, prior to all the civilisations we know of - Maybe descendants of the Canaanites?.

It's very important indeed to get whole genomes from the ancient Near East. As Lazaridis and company pointed out, the whole model for the making of the "Europeans", might change, depending on what it shows. As an E-V13 bearer, I'm sure you know that some have speculated that the Natufians carried it. I'm not so sure about that. I don't think we know enough yet to know when and where that particular mutation took place. I would think some form of "E" might be a good bet, however.

As to the Canaanites, I think it's likely that they were formed by the various strands that went into making the first Near Eastern farmers, which from the archaeology would seem to also include a group from nearer the Zagros mountains. Given that many of the first farmers moved from the northern coastal Levant around Anatolia and then by sea all along the northern Med all the way to Spain (and then inland all around the route) according to Paschou et al, and that so many of those men were G2a, that seems like a pretty good bet for them.

Which reminds me, what does the private testing show about G2a in Malta, and do you know how that compares to the figures for Sicily, for example?

It also would be great to get the genomes of some ancient people from Sicily or from the earliest Maltese settlements, right? How much would you give for that? :smile:

oreo_cookie
07-12-14, 22:42
It also would be great to get the genomes of some ancient people from Sicily or from the earliest Maltese settlements, right? How much would you give for that? :smile:

I'd have liked to see a Sikel, a Sicanian, and an Elymian, to see if there were significant genetic differences between them or whether the divide was simply linguistic.

Maleth
08-12-14, 01:57
It's very important indeed to get whole genomes from the ancient Near East. As Lazaridis and company pointed out, the whole model for the making of the "Europeans", might change, depending on what it shows. As an E-V13 bearer, I'm sure you know that some have speculated that the Natufians carried it. I'm not so sure about that. I don't think we know enough yet to know when and where that particular mutation took place. I would think some form of "E" might be a good bet, however.

you are right only assumptions and speculations so far and no results. Waiting for more sophisticated equipment to start drawing the picture


As to the Canaanites, I think it's likely that they were formed by the various strands that went into making the first Near Eastern farmers, which from the archaeology would seem to also include a group from nearer the Zagros mountains. Given that many of the first farmers moved from the northern coastal Levant around Anatolia and then by sea all along the northern Med all the way to Spain (and then inland all around the route) according to Paschou et al, and that so many of those men were G2a, that seems like a pretty good bet for them.

Some very ancient G2a has been found in Spain (also Otzi) and other are, also a skeleton near stone Hendge was found carrying this hapolgroup.




Which reminds me, what does the private testing show about G2a in Malta, and do you know how that compares to the figures for Sicily, for example?

Even thou we have small samples in both Islands there is a trend emerging. Sicily so far scoring 11.52% for G's and Malta scores 11.36%.



It also would be great to get the genomes of some ancient people from Sicily or from the earliest Maltese settlements, right? How much would you give for that? :smile:

INDEED......Bones found in Megalithic temples, in numerous Punic tombs, bones from early Christian catacombs (from the Roman era) We also have bones from an ancient Jewish cemetery.................all waiting for the scan. (Although I am not sure if the bones from the Jewish cemetery will be allowed to be tested as there was alot of objection from the Jewish community for being unearthed, something to do with Religion I think). Wouldnt that be a story worth telling?:smile:

Maleth
08-12-14, 02:07
I'd have liked to see a Sikel, a Sicanian, and an Elymian, to see if there were significant genetic differences between them or whether the divide was simply linguistic.

you are right oreo, these were groups in Sicily that in reality both Greeks and Phoenicians got assimilated with.

oreo_cookie
08-12-14, 04:15
you are right oreo, these were groups in Sicily that in reality both Greeks and Phoenicians got assimilated with.

This has no basis in fact since we will never have access to information about these groups unless there is a miracle, BUT I suspect they were all similar genetically and only differed due to language, because as we know it does not take a large settlement to shift languages from one to another.

The genetic components in Sicily are all fairly evenly dispersed for there to have been a large-scale genetic division. Either way you have a stake in this too, because whatever the Sicanians, Sikels, and Elymians were, they are running through the blood of the Maltese too!

Hauteville
08-12-14, 11:49
There are a lot of hypothesis about sicanians and elymians. The sicels were probably italics (idem for the morgeti and ausoni) for the other two there are other theories but an interesting book "Siculi, Sicani, Elimi" by Rosa Albanese Procelli said that they were probably the same italic people divided in different tribes, she is an archeologist and she said that about archaeological findings that were all similar. The same hypothesis is for the megalithic people of Malta, many archaeologists think they was sicanians but there aren't similar archaeological sites here or at least have not yet been found.

Maleth
08-12-14, 12:08
This has no basis in fact since we will never have access to information about these groups unless there is a miracle, BUT I suspect they were all similar genetically and only differed due to language, because as we know it does not take a large settlement to shift languages from one to another.

I believe the biggest genetic difference would be between the Sicels (who are believed to originate from Italic tribes that originally crossed through the Alps. The Elymians and Sicani could be close genetically since they seem to have arrived from other Mediterranean origins


The genetic components in Sicily are all fairly evenly dispersed for there to have been a large-scale genetic division. Either way you have a stake in this too, because whatever the Sicanians, Sikels, and Elymians were, they are running through the blood of the Maltese too!

I have no doubt. In fact the first people known to inhabit the Maltese Islands arrived from Sicily too around 7000 BP (as pottery shreds are similar to those found in Sicily in the caves they inhabited) and later went on in developing the Megalithic culture.

Even in the advent of depopulation and re population up the more recent times in the 1000's AD, these people would have been assimilated with the new comers through the centuries (In Sicily) and left their mark in the gene pool represented in later migrations the Maltese Islands.

Maleth
08-12-14, 12:15
There are a lot of hypothesis about sicanians and elymians. The sicels were probably italics (idem for the morgeti and ausoni) for the other two there are other theories but an interesting book "Siculi, Sicani, Elimi" by Rosa Albanese Procelli said that they were probably the same italic people divided in different tribes, she is an archeologist and she said that about archaeological findings that were all similar. The same hypothesis is for the megalithic people of Malta, many archaeologists think they was sicanians but there aren't similar archaeological sites here or at least have not yet been found.

Very possible theory. It is also now believed that probably The Maltese Megalithic culture evolved as a seperate cult from any others such as Stonehenge that was constructed some 1000 years later.

Joey D
29-11-16, 11:44
The maltese girl with surname Formosa told me that in 1930 circa there was a pro italian revolt against the british government.

My Italian teacher was of mixed British/French/Maltese ancestry who grew up in Malta.

He wrote a book: The Malta Language Question: A Case Study in Cultural Imperialism.

In short, the book laments the loss of Malta as an Italian-speaking nation, with increasing tendency for English to be the preferred second-language of the island.

To be honest, who could blame them for preferring English over Italian. Half their luck, if only Sicily could have shared the same modern history as Malta, and have had Sicilian and English as official languages.

Joey D
29-11-16, 11:49
Where I grew up in Melbourne, it was considered little Malta. Most of my friends were Maltese, and I've enjoyed countless meals of pastizzi.

Anyway, what I remember clearly was that the Maltese girls at school were absolutely gorgeous, all of them.

Personally, overall, I see a distinction between Maltese and Southern Italians/Greeks (and I have to say, it favours the Maltese on this occasion).

Seanp
31-12-16, 06:15
These ones look quite Semitic even for South Italian standards.

https://cdn-attachments.timesofmalta.com/77ba1c975a10f0ef9994f1e0b862fa4f447019779-1301396957-4d91bddd-620x348.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xH0kr-ovkzc/VfGP_RF0NaI/AAAAAAAABdQ/k7X1OliPtsg/s1600/Sarah%2BMarcieca%2B-%2BMiss%2BGrand%2BMalta%2B2015.jpg
https://tkoip.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/miss-malta-2016.jpg?w=700

Maleth
01-01-17, 02:39
These ones look quite Semitic even for South Italian standards.

https://cdn-attachments.timesofmalta.com/77ba1c975a10f0ef9994f1e0b862fa4f447019779-1301396957-4d91bddd-620x348.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xH0kr-ovkzc/VfGP_RF0NaI/AAAAAAAABdQ/k7X1OliPtsg/s1600/Sarah%2BMarcieca%2B-%2BMiss%2BGrand%2BMalta%2B2015.jpg
https://tkoip.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/miss-malta-2016.jpg?w=700

Defiantly not unknown phenotypes in the South of Europe. What is Semitic anyway? Can Veronik Bodisz (Miss Hungary) qualify as 'Semitic'? Its not exactly an unknown type in the Middle East and to a lesser extent in North Africa.

http://pnews.missuniversusa.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Veronika-Bodizs-miss-hungary.jpg

http://www.missgrandinternational.com/data/content/849/thumb_350_500/849_missgrandthailand_ahklouw23567.jpg

This is another picture of Sarah Mercieca, I am not sure she qualifies as looking 'Semetic'.

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-1/p200x200/14463215_1737446276505265_5641216700520977418_n.jp g?oh=cfe2706330c8ea3c635144ae3b3e4ae7&oe=58EB605E

Anthea Zammit can maybe easily pass as North African or Middle eastern.

Seanp
03-01-17, 13:12
Defiantly not unknown phenotypes in the South of Europe. What is Semitic anyway? Can Veronik Bodisz (Miss Hungary) qualify as 'Semitic'? Its not exactly an unknown type in the Middle East and to a lesser extent in North Africa.

http://pnews.missuniversusa.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Veronika-Bodizs-miss-hungary.jpg

http://www.missgrandinternational.com/data/content/849/thumb_350_500/849_missgrandthailand_ahklouw23567.jpg

This is another picture of Sarah Mercieca, I am not sure she qualifies as looking 'Semetic'.

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-1/p200x200/14463215_1737446276505265_5641216700520977418_n.jp g?oh=cfe2706330c8ea3c635144ae3b3e4ae7&oe=58EB605E

Anthea Zammit can maybe easily pass as North African or Middle eastern.

Among Hungarians such types doesn't exist. We overlap with Turkmens, Tatars and Anatolian Turks to some extent due to some shared Asiatic ancestry but Arabian and North African characteristic is absent except Jewish minorities.

Sarah Mercieca looks like many Levantine women i've seen. She could pass here as a Gypsy admixed Hungarian.
Anthea Zammit has an exclusively Near East phenotype which exists in South Italy, Iberia, Greece but that's all.

Maleth
08-01-17, 15:35
Sarah Mercieca looks like many Levantine women i've seen. She could pass here as a Gypsy admixed Hungarian.
Anthea Zammit has an exclusively Near East phenotype which exists in South Italy, Iberia, Greece but that's all.

This would be the average Levantine look (and I know these backgrounds as my partner is Lebanese, some like anywhere else are incredibly attractive). without much cherry picking. There are a number of people you see on the street locally who can fall under this category, but not Sarah Mercieca I'm afraid. Not a good example ;) http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/shared/npr/styles/x_large/nprshared/201310/175287760.jpg