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Mars
04-12-14, 12:50
Thread's title sounds bizarre, I know :laughing: Anyway, have your say about... me. I'm posting my personal data, in order to let you "analyze" them historically.
I mean, associate my data to historical populations (romans, gauls, ligurians, etc.), civilizations (La Thene etc.), and ages.
Y-DNA, MtDNA and autosomal from FamilyTreeDNA. I'm posting some data from GEDmatch, too.
My heritage: I'm a northern italian, mostly ligurian, with some emilian (Appennine Ridge) and venetian (Padua area) ancestors.

Y-DNA: R-Z36 (subclade of R-U152).
6893
MtDNA: HV
6894
Autosomal analysis from FTDNA
85% European
-69% Southern European
-16% Scandinavia
16% Middle Eastern
-16% Asia Minor

GEDmatch Farmer vs Hunter-Gatherer (Eurogenes)



Anatolian Farmer
17.64%


Baltic Hunter Gatherer
30.77%


Middle Eastern Herder
11.26%


East Asian Farmer
-


South American Hunter Gatherer
-


South Asian Hunter Gatherer
-


North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer
-


East African Pastoralist
-


Oceanian Hunter Gatherer
-


Mediterranean Farmer
40.13%


Pygmy Hunter Gatherer
0.20%

Hauteville
04-12-14, 13:48
Not a surprise your subclade of R1b.

Angela
04-12-14, 15:00
As Hauteville mentioned, your yDna is totally typical of your area, and there are no surprises in terms of mtDna either.

In terms of the autosomal results, I never use the Eurogenes calculators, as I am highly skeptical about the methodology. It's difficult to be anything else, as a detailed methodology has never been published for any of them.

I'm also not a fan of the FTDNA analysis. Perhaps the methodology has now changed, but the last time I checked, he (McDonald) was still including the Ashkenazim in the "Middle Eastern" group, an inexplicable decision to me, given how much "European" admixture is in that group.

It's almost as bad as what 23andme did with the Balkan reference populations.

I'm sorry to be so negative, but you did ask. :smile:

Mars
04-12-14, 16:04
I'm sorry to be so negative, but you did ask. :smile:
No problem...I didn't post my data to surprise anyone, I'm aware I'm an average guy :satisfied:
Anyway, my two cents about my old ancestry: my paternal... "greatest-grandpa" was a cisalpine gaul, or in other terms, an alpine celt. He maybe mixed with the ancient ligurians at a certain point (or maybe ligurians were just proto-celts?). My maternal... "greatest-grandma" had a haplogroup associated to the neolithic expansion into Europe. HV is the "mother" of both H and V, which are more recents haplogroups, and came from Asia Minor 8000 years ago (according to Genographic). So, my "grandma" was probably the daughter of an ancient farming people. My maternal line comes from the Tosco-Emilian Appennine, where "neolithics" fled after the italic invasion of the Bronze Age. My two cents, of course...
She may have been an etruscan patrician or a mysterious, provocative eastern dancer, too :-)

Angela
04-12-14, 16:45
No problem...I didn't post my data to surprise anyone, I'm aware I'm an average guy :satisfied:
Anyway, my two cents about my old ancestry: my paternal... "greatest-grandpa" was a cisalpine gaul, or in other terms, an alpine celt. He maybe mixed with the ancient ligurians at a certain point (or maybe ligurians were just proto-celts?). My maternal... "greatest-grandma" had a haplogroup associated to the neolithic expansion into Europe. HV is the "mother" of both H and V, which are more recents haplogroups, and came from Asia Minor 8000 years ago (according to Genographic). So, my "grandma" was probably the daughter of an ancient farming people. My maternal line comes from the Tosco-Emilian Appennine, where "neolithics" fled after the italic invasion of the Bronze Age. My two cents, of course...
She may have been an etruscan patrician or a mysterious, provocative eastern dancer, too :-)

Sounds good to me, based on your uniparental haplogroups. :smile:

Alan
04-12-14, 17:34
What sort of HV is your mtdna? Is it HV1/2/3/4 or simply HV*.

Hauteville
04-12-14, 17:46
An italic dude nothing else eheh

Angela
04-12-14, 18:47
Most of the Italians with whom I share have totally appropriate uniparental markers. All of the men from Liguria, Emilia, and Toscana with whom I share are R1b of one type or another, usually U-152, with the sole exception of one who is J2a. One man, whose paternal line is from Calabria, is G2a. It was a surprise at the time, but not once some of these studies came out. I also later discovered that his whole area is very high in G2a. The MtDna is from Benevento and is "H" with no further subclade resolution.

I'm the only odd man(or woman:smile: ) out, with my mtDna U2e. I'm still not convinced it's eastern European mesolithic and then Indo-European in origin, although I supposed it's possible.

Mars
04-12-14, 19:21
Most of the Italians with whom I share have totally appropriate uniparental markers. All of the men from Liguria, Emilia, and Toscana with whom I share are R1b of one type or another, usually U-152, with the sole exception of one who is J2a. One man, whose paternal line is from Calabria, is G2a. It was a surprise at the time, but not once some of these studies came out. I also later discovered that his whole area is very high in G2a. The MtDna is from Benevento and is "H" with no further subclade resolution.

I'm the only odd man(or woman:smile: ) out, with my mtDna U2e. I'm still not convinced it's eastern European mesolithic and then Indo-European in origin, although I supposed it's possible.
J2 and G2 should be "relics" of the neolithic Italy. They should be much more frequent in the south, where they were brought by greek colonists, too, than in the central-northern part of the peninsula, which was completely taken over by indoeuropeans from the La Thene culture (including my ancestor, I guess :-)).

Mars
04-12-14, 19:22
What sort of HV is your mtdna? Is it HV1/2/3/4 or simply HV*. If simply HV* it could be as old as paleolithic.
According to Genographic (I tested with them first, before FTDNA) it's just HV. They indicate a very large time frame for its origin, 22,350-7,750 years ago...!

Angela
04-12-14, 20:23
J2 and G2 should be "relics" of the neolithic Italy. They should be much more frequent in the south, where they were brought by greek colonists, too, than in the central-northern part of the peninsula, which was completely taken over by indoeuropeans from the La Thene culture (including my ancestor, I guess :-)).

Well, we haven't found any Neolithic J2a yet, although I'm always ready to be surprised. As for "G", according to Boattini et al there are 5 separate "G2a" clusters in Italy, all with separate arrival dates. Given that his paternal area faces the Ionian Sea and that it is littered with Greek ruins, they might be a good bet, but who knows? If the man in question had only gotten his yDna tested at FTDNA there might have been a way to get a better handle on when it arrived and with whom. However, he never wavered in his belief that this is all utter nonsense. The only thing he wanted to know was if it showed he was Italian, and his only complaint was about those few percents of Northern European. :grin:*

I don't agree, by the way, that the people of the LaTene culture or any other Indo-European speaking group from over the Alps "took over" if by that you mean that they wiped out the prior Neolithic inhabitants. Since you're part Ligurian, I'm sure you know the panoply of yDna as well as mtDna in the region. So, that didn't happen. Plus, depending on what the upcoming papers show on the "ethnic" composition of the "Indo-Europeans", we may all be in for a surprise, although I suppose their "Indo-Europeanness" might have been somewhat watered down by the time they got to the Alps and then into Italy.

*Ed. I, of course, have a much more enlightened attitude. My father wasn't right about everything! Just most things, as he told me I would discover, and I did.:smile:

Hauteville
04-12-14, 21:08
So the J2a arrived in Italy in which period?

Alan
04-12-14, 21:15
J2 and G2 should be "relics" of the neolithic Italy. They should be much more frequent in the south, where they were brought by greek colonists, too, than in the central-northern part of the peninsula, which was completely taken over by indoeuropeans from the La Thene culture (including my ancestor, I guess :-)).

G2 yes, but not J2. J2 is came either with Indo Europeans or Etruscans and the kind.

Mars
04-12-14, 22:13
I don't agree, by the way, that the people of the LaTene culture or any other Indo-European speaking group from over the Alps "took over" if by that you mean that they wiped out the prior Neolithic inhabitants. Since you're part Ligurian, I'm sure you know the panoply of yDna as well as mtDna in the region. So, that didn't happen. Plus, depending on what the upcoming papers show on the "ethnic" composition of the "Indo-Europeans", we may all be in for a surprise, although I suppose their "Indo-Europeanness" might have been somewhat watered down by the time they got to the Alps and then into Italy.

Mmmmh, I'm not sure. I think our ancestors were jerks, in most cases :-) Liguria was maybe a particular case of "overlap", I think; in my humble opinion, the presence of both mountains and sea in the same, tiny territory probably stimulated the admixture between the new folks (celtic? proto-celtic? italic?) and the old ones (descendents of EEF). But this preceded the italic invasion of Italy.
In other areas, the two populations probably clashed, at least for some time. According to Maciamo's Genetic History of Italy: Italic-speakers, an Indo-European branch, are thought to have crossed the Alps and invaded the Italian peninsula around 3,200 years ago, establishing the Villanova culture and bringing with them primarily R1b-U152 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152) lineages and replacing or displacing a large part of the indigenous people. The Neolithic inhabitants of Italy sought refuge in the Apeninne mountains and in Sardinia. Nowadays, the highest concentration of haplogroup G2a and J1 outside the Middle East are found in the Apeninnes, Calabria, Sicily and Sardinia.
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

Angela
04-12-14, 22:22
G2 yes, but not J2. J2 is came either with Indo Europeans or Etruscans and the kind.

I wouldn't rule out post Neolithic arrival for some clades of G2 either.

There are those Don River Alan catacomb burials with their G2:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30314-Alans%28with-Catacomb-burial-ritual%29-from-River-Don-8-th-century-6-had-haplogroup-G2

Then you find it again in those Merovingian knights. I'm also still not convinced that the Bourbons weren't G2a, perhaps from the same source.

Anyway, see this thread on G2a in Italy as per Boattini et al:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28663-Distribution-of-G2a-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29?highlight=G2a+Italy-Boattini

As to J2, all the old papers did say it was Neolithic in Europe. The problem is that all the ancient Neolithic remains found so far are heavily G2a, with a few I2 men, (and one I1?) and one E-V13. It's early days yet, so I wouldn't bet the farm on any of this, but, for example, Boattini dated the arrival of the y lineages in Italy, and while the actual dates may be off, more recent discoveries seem to indicate that the "relative" order for the entrance of some of these lineages into Italy appears to be correct. (Of course it's all much more complicated, because you have to look at specific subclades.)

See:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29842-southern-Italian-paper-2014?highlight=Boattini

Then we had the total surprise of a J2a1 Indo-European showing up...See Christina Gamba et al:
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/full/ncomms6257.html

The discussion:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30570-Ancient-DNA-from-Hungary-Christine-Gamba-et-al

That's what keeps me interested in this topic...so many unexpected twists and turns that it doesn't get boring...and I hate being bored!)

Angela
04-12-14, 23:01
Mmmmh, I'm not sure. I think our ancestors were jerks, in most cases :-) Liguria was maybe a particular case of "overlap", I think; in my humble opinion, the presence of both mountains and sea in the same, tiny territory probably stimulated the admixture between the new folks (celtic? proto-celtic? italic?) and the old ones (descendents of EEF). But this preceded the italic invasion of Italy.
In other areas, the two populations probably clashed, at least for some time. According to Maciamo's Genetic History of Italy: Italic-speakers, an Indo-European branch, are thought to have crossed the Alps and invaded the Italian peninsula around 3,200 years ago, establishing the Villanova culture and bringing with them primarily R1b-U152 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152) lineages and replacing or displacing a large part of the indigenous people. The Neolithic inhabitants of Italy sought refuge in the Apeninne mountains and in Sardinia. Nowadays, the highest concentration of haplogroup G2a and J1 outside the Middle East are found in the Apeninnes, Calabria, Sicily and Sardinia.
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

Sorry, I don't know where you got that idea, but autosomal analysis is totally against any such claim for any Italians, including ones from the north. (It's against any such claim for most Europeans, as a matter of fact, once you realize that both the English and the Germans are about 50% EEF, although we have yet to figure out how much is old LBK or Copper Age dna and how much came with the "Indo-Europeans".) Y dna lineages are good for spotting movements of male dominated migrations, but the autosomal signal can be wiped out in a few generations. We've learned not to rely on them very heavily for an analysis of overall genetic similarity. (I hate to break this to all you gentlemen, but you have mothers too, and in addition yDna is subject to great fluctuations because of founder effect, and also unknown but suspected "fitness" characteristics, such as being more likely to have even a percent or two more likelihood to sire boys...)

You might want to read Lazaridis et al and other more recent papers based on autosomal dna. On some comparisons, northern Italians (like Spaniards) plot very near Gok4, who is only different from Stuttgart in carrying some additional WHG. Even if the "Italic" speakers carried only WHG and ANE, which I would be willing to bet they didn't, that amounts to, in the case of northern Italians (Bergamo), at the most 28% of their total genome. (In actuality, I think some WHG was present at least in northern Italy before their arrival, and I'm sure the "Indo-Europeans" carried some Neolithic farmer dna, whether Stuttgart like or "Armenian like" by the time they got to Italy. That's where it gets complicated.)

Ed. I also don't know where you got the idea that the northern Apennines are a refuge for y Dna "G". There is some, yes, but most of the Dna there and in the Apuan Alps is heavily R1b of the U-152 variety.
See:http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_G2a_Y-DNA.shtml

Regardless, that tells us very little about overall genetic similarity.

See: EEF/WHG/ANE table from Lazaridis et al
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6711&d=1412908897

Also see the following graphic from Gamba et al:
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/images/ncomms6257-f2.jpg


(http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/images/ncomms6257-f2.jpg)

Mars
05-12-14, 00:15
You might want to read Lazaridis et al and other more recent papers based on autosomal dna. On some comparisons, northern Italians (like Spaniards) plot very near Gok4, who is only different from Stuttgart in carrying some additional WHG. Even if the "Italic" speakers carried only WHG and ANE, which I would be willing to bet they didn't, that amounts to, in the case of northern Italians (Bergamo), at the most 28% of their total genome. (In actuality, I think some WHG was present at least in northern Italy before their arrival, and I'm sure the "Indo-Europeans" carried some Neolithic farmer dna, whether Stuttgart like or "Armenian like" by the time they got to Italy. That's where it gets complicated.)

Ed. I also don't know where you got the idea that the northern Apennines are a refuge for y Dna "G". There is some, yes, but most of the Dna there and in the Apuan Alps is heavily R1b of the U-152 variety.
See:http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_G2a_Y-DNA.shtml

Regardless, that tells us very little about overall genetic similarity.

See: EEF/WHG/ANE table from Lazaridis et al
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6711&d=1412908897

Also see the following graphic from Gamba et al:
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/images/ncomms6257-f2.jpg


(http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/images/ncomms6257-f2.jpg)
I mentioned the Genetic History of Italy available here on Eupedia. However, I think Indoeuropeans didn't bring anything particularly new, on autosomal terms; they "simply" brought Y-Dna lineages that were less frequent, or maybe absent, in many areas. When I wrote about EEF or "neolithics", it was just a way to define people who derived from ancient populations, which came to Europe 8,000 years ago (and mingled with natives in the process). I did not mean the "original" EEF we are used to speak of on anthroboards

Alan
05-12-14, 00:16
I wouldn't rule out post Neolithic arrival for some clades of G2 either.

There are those Don River Alan catacomb burials with their G2:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30314-Alans%28with-Catacomb-burial-ritual%29-from-River-Don-8-th-century-6-had-haplogroup-G2


You are absolutely right. Of course there is not a single Haplogroup of which we can claim they have arrived anywhere only in one wave.
What I meant was that G2 is the only one of those two which has reached Europe as early as Neolithic.

But significant chunk of it reached Italy probably later too. With Etruscans, Alans etc.

About Indo Europeans. I think they were mostly ANE and ENF. They probably had very little WHG, because ENF and ANE is what connects the Indo Europeans most.

Greying Wanderer
05-12-14, 05:26
romans and sabines

Mars
05-12-14, 10:20
romans and sabines
Thanks for bringing the thread back in topic :-) I agree with romans, why did you mention sabines in particular? They were a central italian tribe, close to the latins.
About my autosomal data, my 16% "scandinavian" is probably a signal of early middle ages admixture of my family line with goth or longobard "invaders" from the North. I think many italians, mainly northerners but also people from some particular areas (Benevento in the South, for example) display some minor "scandinavian" genes in their own gene pool. According to FTDNA, scandinavian is indeed "a sister cluster to Western and Central Europe and British Isles, the Scandinavian cluster has developed in moderate seclusion, influenced by the arctic heritage it shares with those of Finland and Northern Siberia" [...] . I noticed that some other users from southern Europe (a spaniard, a greek) display some moderate "scandinavian" (in percentages similar to mine). I think this is consistent with the main history theories about the moderate impact of the germanic invasions on the demography of southern populations during the final stages of the Roman domination.

Angela
05-12-14, 16:05
You might want to take a look at the FTDNA tutorial which explains how to interpret the scores. I don't want to burst any genealogical bubbles or anything, but to be literally 16% Scandinavian you would have to have something like one Scandinavian great-grandparent. A few ancestors from Scandinavia in the Middle Ages would leave barely a trace.

The "Scandinavian" in the scores is just a stand in for broadly northern, north/central European genes within your genome. It's just that FTDNA paints with a very broad and poorly labeled brush, not to mention that their assignment of reference samples to different clusters...well, I'll be polite and say it stinks, shall we say. :smile: These kinds of tests are very broad and very unhelpful for genealogical purposes. Well, unless one is part Ashkenazi and one took the 23andme test, of course.

The total Northern European percentages in 23andme would be the equivalent. I happen to share with someone from western Liguria/Piemonte who has precisely 16% Northern European on 23andme, and close to that in "Scandinavian" on FTDNA, so it seems your scores are rather typical for someone from your area, although it wouldn't surprise me to see scores like that for someone who is a mix of far northern Italian (Bergamo/Brescia perhaps?) and central Italian (Umbria maybe?).

As to going off topic,genetic genealogy necessarily involves an understanding of the genetics (and archaeology) of particular parts of the world. If someone, in the context of asking for comments about his genetic make-up, makes a statement like, "J2 and G2 should be "relics" of the neolithic Italy. They should be much more frequent in the south, where they were brought by greek colonists, too, than in the central-northern part of the peninsula, which was completely taken over by indoeuropeans from the La Thene culture (including my ancestor, I guess." , statements which are at least highly questionable, if not incorrect, then of course it's going to generate a response. We wouldn't want you to keep laboring under the misapprehension that you're genetically a total product of invading Indo-Europeans, when that's highly unlikely. That would be very unhelpful of us. :smile:

Mars
06-12-14, 10:02
Oh well, I never said that I'm a total product of the indoeuropeans. I also posted my GEDmatch "farmers vs hunter-gatherers" data... They clearly display - as far as these tests are affordable... - that I'm 40% early european farmer, 30% baltic hunter gatherer, etc. And I don't think indoeuropeans were "aliens", they probably brought the same autosomal "ingredients" of other western eurasians (with maybe a bit of ANE, but I know this is disputed). I just have an haplogroup that is likely indoeuropean (R1b). End of story :grin:
About the scandinavian/northern european, and the supposed goth/longobard link, I was just wondering. According to FTDNA northern italians on average fall in a mixed cluster: southern european+western/central european. It should display and admixture of mediterranean elements with probably celtic elements from beyond the Alps. I am basically an admixture of southern european and scandinavian, so, in the very broad picture painted by FTDNA (I agree), I probably have some more distinctly "germanic" input than the "average" northern italian. But it's just speculation. Scandinavian is a sister cluster of western/central european, just a bit more "northern" oriented.
I'm not surprised either to know that a fellow ligurian is 16% northern euro, too, because I think, as I stated before, that in Italy a lot of people have a weak, but detectable, germanic input coming from the end of the Empire and the following romano-barbaric phase (or even from previous times).
Genographic uses broader terms, but maybe more correct on an anthopological point of view, IMO. It "just" says I'm 51% mediterranean (=EEF), 31% northern european (=WHG), 18% south west asian (an additional component of mediterranean farmers, according to Genographic).

Greying Wanderer
07-12-14, 03:15
why did you mention sabines in particular?

Just because of the legend. There may be other similar legends but the Sabines is the only I know.

Mars
07-12-14, 21:30
Just because of the legend. There may be other similar legends but the Sabines is the only I know.
Yeah... that legend is cool, even if it could sound very sexist today :embarassed: :satisfied: