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View Full Version : New map of haplogroup R1a-M458 (Y-DNA)



Maciamo
20-12-14, 14:13
I have created a new map of R1a-M458, a lineage which I associate with the Corded Ware expansion and which peaks in West Slavic countries today. The Underhill et al. 2014 paper provided a rough distribution map of R1a-M458, but I wasn't satisfied by its accuracy (it is auto-generated, not hand-made like mine). For example I have drawn the exact data for the Caucasus and the Volga-Ural region. I have also recalculated some percentages based on my Y-DNA frequencies. It does not affect a lot of regions, but in some cases the gap is considerable, and Underhill et al. had far fewer samples. E.g. for Hungary I have over 800 samples totalling 29.5% of R1a, while Underhill et al. had 18.6% of R1a out of 113 samples.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png

arvistro
20-12-14, 15:04
Thanks! Very useful.

Edit: based on this map it seems that m458 never went into Italy as part of Goths, Langobards or other East Germanic tribal unions.
So, interesting ideas about connecting this marker to East Germans are not correct.

Melancon
20-12-14, 15:58
I have created a new map of R1a-M458, a lineage which I associate with the Corded Ware expansion and which peaks in West Slavic countries today. The Underhill et al. 2014 paper provided a rough distribution map of R1a-M458, but I wasn't satisfied by its accuracy (it is auto-generated, not hand-made like mine). For example I have drawn the exact data for the Caucasus and the Volga-Ural region. I have also recalculated some percentages based on my Y-DNA frequencies. It does not affect a lot of regions, but in some cases the gap is considerable, and Underhill et al. had far fewer samples. E.g. for Hungary I have over 800 samples totalling 29.5% of R1a, while Underhill et al. had 18.6% of R1a out of 113 samples.



Very interesting! Thanks! I have been waiting for R1a subclade maps for a while. This one looks very interesting and awesome.

Silesian
20-12-14, 16:45
Nice map thank-you.


http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png

R1b Z2103+ with updated frequency map below R1b CTS7822+CTS-9219+

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif

R1bM269+L23+[L51-]
R1b-Z2103+CTS7822+9219+5578+ in many ways reflects the same pattern and has many samples within this region of R1a-M458
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish/default.aspx?section=ymap
6967

Ike
20-12-14, 17:03
You could start adding a small time stamp on your new maps. Like Dec 2014.

motzart
20-12-14, 23:27
Without referencing the studies/sample data you are using these maps are worthless.

Melancon
21-12-14, 01:50
Without referencing the studies/sample data you are using these maps are worthless.WTH the map was totally generated with sources. You think someone like Maciamo would just go and make and generate maps like this for no reason? Look up the subclade of M458; there will be pages with several sources on DNA gathering by country and number and percentage...

LeBrok
21-12-14, 07:14
It is so rare in Scandinavia that I have my doubts that it was carried around with Corded Ware. It resembles Slavic Expansion more than anything.
.

motzart
21-12-14, 08:21
It is so rare in Scandinavia that I have my doubts that it was carried around with Corded Ware. It resembles Slavic Expansion more than anything.
.

I agree about it not resembling Corded Ware, I would say Scythian -> Sarmatian -> Slavic. Corded Ware would be Z284, but Corded Ware and Scythian sharing a common origin (as evidenced by mtDNA H2a1).

bicicleur
21-12-14, 09:21
I agree about it not resembling Corded Ware, I would say Scythian -> Sarmatian -> Slavic. Corded Ware would be Z284, but Corded Ware and Scythian sharing a common origin (as evidenced by mtDNA H2a1).

what language spoke Scyths/Sarmats? wasn't it Iranic?
what would be the common Corded Ware / Scythian origin?

bicicleur
21-12-14, 09:27
It is so rare in Scandinavia that I have my doubts that it was carried around with Corded Ware. It resembles Slavic Expansion more than anything.
.

of course, M458 were the northern Slavs, the northern Slavs were just one of many corded ware tribes

arvistro
21-12-14, 13:28
M458 joins Croats, Czechs and Poles (Lechs?).
About Croats this is written:
Some historians present opinions, that ancient Croats were of Scytho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians)-Sarmatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats#cite_note-2) or Oghur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghur) Turkic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats#cite_note-Karatay-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats#cite_note-4) origin.
This is from wiki about "White Croats": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats
As you see from wiki they probably came from modern Polish territory. Also there are theories of their ethnonime as Iranian.

Poles had romantic theories of being descendants of Sarmatians...

I say there is some chance of M458 being Sarmat marker..

Hauteville
21-12-14, 15:43
So Maciamo, which is the subclade of R1a in Italy?

Sile
21-12-14, 18:01
So Maciamo, which is the subclade of R1a in Italy?

on the map where R1a is shown in north-east italy , it is Z280

the R1b is L2

Melancon
21-12-14, 20:32
M458 joins Croats, Czechs and Poles (Lechs?).
About Croats this is written:
Some historians present opinions, that ancient Croats were of Scytho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians)-Sarmatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats#cite_note-2) or Oghur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghur)Turkic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats#cite_note-Karatay-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats#cite_note-4) origin.
This is from wiki about "White Croats": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats
As you see from wiki they probably came from modern Polish territory. Also there are theories of their ethnonime as Iranian.

Poles had romantic theories of being descendants of Sarmatians...

I say there is some chance of M458 being Sarmat marker..It isn't necessarily descendants of Sarmatians ... Scythians and other Indo-Aryans (because the Slavs are not; they are descendants of SLAVS) if anything, they are more likely to be relative to Indo-Aryans, but were not Indo-Aryans ... distinct tribes who carried the same paternal Haplogroup clade of R1a and were related. (the tribes were likely undocumented by Greeks and Roman sources. we will probably never know.)

Of course it's very likely that Slavic people do have Sarmatian or Scythian in them; but I would guess that the mixture would not be very exaggerated ... I also believe that Indo-Aryans may have carried G2a at a very high frequency ... which would explain why the Alans/Ossetians carry this Y-DNA at a high frequency and R1a is a little more rare.

Just to simplify things for everyone.

(Also, I think I heard a theory ... that the Thracians were originally Indo-Aryans themselves ... but the Greeks renamed them Thracians, because they inhabited Thrace. But don't take my word for it... research this claim yourselves. I have no idea if this is true. The etymology of the word Thrace is even more mysterious.)

arvistro
21-12-14, 20:59
Of course it's very likely that Slavic people do have Sarmatian or Scythian in them; but I would guess that the mixture would not be very exaggerated ... I also believe that Indo-Aryans may have carried G2a at a very high frequency ... which would explain why the Alans/Ossetians carry this Y-DNA at a high frequency and R1a is a little more rare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians#Genetics
The Y-haplogroup data indicate that North Ossetians are more similar to other North Caucasian groups, and South Ossetians are more similar to other South Caucasian groups, than to each other. Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups. It is thus suggested that there is a common origin of Ossetians from Iran, followed by subsequent male-mediated migrations from their Caucasian neighbours (bolded parts mine).

So, who knows. Without ancient dna all I can do is speculate :)

Maciamo
22-12-14, 09:32
on the map where R1a is shown in north-east italy , it is Z280


Most of the R1a in Italy is the eastern European Z280>CTS1211 (common around Poland and Ukraine), which I believe was brought by the Goths. Nevertheless there is little bit of M458, but only above 1% in South Tyrol and the Friulian Alps.

Goga
22-12-14, 13:54
Thanks for this GREAT map, man!

How I do understand this map? Well, as you can see the variance of R1a in Europe is not high. R1a entered Europe from West Asia*(Maykop? Leyla-Tepe?) and the population exploded after that. High distribution of R1a in some parts of Europe is due to a bottleneck, because they are all the same.


* I do belong to a R1a* Y-DNA haplogroup which is older than the European R1a, and I'm an Ezdi Kurd and belong to an 'Iranoid' race. Although, most Iranoid folks outside Kurdistan that belong to R1a are mostly R1a-Z93, so make your conclusions…

Ike
30-12-14, 01:37
@Maciamo

Are you sure nothing's wrong with coloring. You say you get 30% in Hungary, but it doesn't match that shade of orange. Your map says 5-10%

Moor
30-12-14, 02:13
Very Interesting map, thanks for sharing.

Belmonde
25-10-16, 03:14
Dear Maciamo, do you know which data for Croats is correct, that of Underhill 2009 or Underhill 2014? Or at least why they differ so much? In the supplementary info of both papers it is stated Croats mainland and total number of sampled n=108, also the same with the islands. But the strange is that the results following this are different.

Data of Underhill 2009:
Croatia mainland(n=108): R1a- 26.9%; xM458- 24.1%, M458- 2.1%
Osijek: R1axM458- 37.9%, M458- 0%
Split: R1axM458- 16.9%, M458- 9%
Korcula: R1axM458- 12.7%, M458- 3%
Brac: R1axM458- 22.4%, M458-2%
Krk: R1axM458-24.3%, M458- 12.2%
Hvar: R1axM458-6.6%, M458- 0%

Results of Underhill 2014:
Croats mainland (n=108 !): R1a - 28.7, M458- 19.4%

For me not only the changed results, but the high M458 in Croats is strange, since it is so rare among their neighbours. As far as I know the only place where M458 is more than Z280 is possibly Rijeka, the source reads c412329/v412329003/6742/-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg in Google

MaxCRO
25-10-16, 16:40
Yeah, it is strange considering the fact most R1a Croats on publicaly avilable projects are Z280 insted of M458.

According to historical sources our origins are from Western Slavic lands , which are rich in M458, yet I'm not convinced it is dominant subclade among Croats.

Belmonde
25-10-16, 18:21
I think we should email the authors of the team of Underhill to try to clear that out. The issue is especially strange and interesting to me. I'd also suggest that Z280 is more in Croats. Probably Zagreb and west Croatia are with more M458 if you see this map:

https://pp.vk.me/c412329/v412329003/6742/-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg

Boreas
30-10-16, 07:25
https://pp.vk.me/c412329/v412329003/6742/-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg

I confused

This source uses R1a1a1g for Z-283

http://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA20120300005_14498334.pdf

Maciamo
30-10-16, 08:08
Dear Maciamo, do you know which data for Croats is correct, that of Underhill 2009 or Underhill 2014? Or at least why they differ so much? In the supplementary info of both papers it is stated Croats mainland and total number of sampled n=108, also the same with the islands. But the strange is that the results following this are different.

Data of Underhill 2009:
Croatia mainland(n=108): R1a- 26.9%; xM458- 24.1%, M458- 2.1%
Osijek: R1axM458- 37.9%, M458- 0%
Split: R1axM458- 16.9%, M458- 9%
Korcula: R1axM458- 12.7%, M458- 3%
Brac: R1axM458- 22.4%, M458-2%
Krk: R1axM458-24.3%, M458- 12.2%
Hvar: R1axM458-6.6%, M458- 0%

Results of Underhill 2014:
Croats mainland (n=108 !): R1a - 28.7, M458- 19.4%

For me not only the changed results, but the high M458 in Croats is strange, since it is so rare among their neighbours. As far as I know the only place where M458 is more than Z280 is possibly Rijeka, the source reads c412329/v412329003/6742/-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg in Google

That's a very good question. An doubly odd as it is the same team specialised in hg R1a, using apparently the same 108 samples, who reports such opposite results for R1a subclades in Croatia. I don't know what happened there. I would think that the newer data is the correct one and that they just hadn't tested thoroughly enough the first time. The FTDNA data show that almost all Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian R1a is Z280. So after all it's possible that Underhill's team misreported the data, inserting it in the M458 column when it should have been in the Z280 column.

Belmonde
03-11-16, 16:36
A newer paper from 2016 confirms the expectations that in mainland Croatia Z280 prevails. If you check ''Genetic heritage of Croatians in the Southeastern European gene pool—Y chromosome analysis of the Croatian continental and Island population'' (Jelena Šarac 2016) you see M558 described as a major haplogroup among Croats (19%) in the intro. In the same publication R1a in Croatia mainland consists of: 21-M558, 3-M458, 5-Z282. In Dubrovnik and elsewhere M558 is also described prevailing.


The 2016 publication shows 88 sampled from Zagreb, Zabok, Donji Miholjac, Pazin, Delnice. Although not 108 again, these are appearently the same samples (excl 20 from Dubrovnik) derived from "Pericic et al. High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populati (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full)ions" which describes 108 sampled from Mainland Croatia from Zagreb, Zabok, Donji Miholjac, Pazin Delnice and Dubrovnik. My conclusion is that data from Underhill 2014 is somehow mistaken, there is no other explanation.

As you said, Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian must be basically homogeneous in terms of R1a, this is more plausible suggestion if we consider the linguistic category, as the Serbo-Croatian language quite resembles Ukrainian. M458 is only significant in Bulgarians (and Greeks) in the south, whose language is descended from the Polish tribes.

Daemon2017
15-07-17, 14:11
User TK from neighboring Russian forum prepared a map of M458's subclades diversity.
http://savepic.ru/14651147.jpg

Dibran
22-12-17, 16:04
.................

Hey Maciamo,

I posted a thread and can't seem to get any input. I am currently testing full genomes, and should have my results in January some time. On LivingDNA I am Z283 and no call for M458. However, I am predicted M458 - YP515(possibly a founder effect under or near this clade).

Out of curiosity, I uploaded my AncestryDNA to Morely Y-DNA predictor. I was predicted to most likely be R1a-M458-L1029-L388.

Per Igmayka on anthro, L388 occurs within YP263.

Per Yfull, these were the countries it is common in: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP263/

How accurate is morely predictor? If I am part of this branch, who were the likely tribes to bring it to the Balkans?

Judging by its distribution, it seems most common in Germany, Scandinavia, Finland, Poland, Russia, USA.

The only thing I can think of is Ostrogoths, maybe Varangians(since the clade seems to be in Scandinavia and around the Balts). If it occurred earlier, possibly Bastarnae(given the geographic extent of their movements). If I am part of this clade, while its origin is Balto-Slavic and or Corded Ware, this particular clade does not seem common outside the listed countries. Otherwise it should be more widespread with some west slavic samples right?

Look forward to your reply.

eastara
24-12-17, 01:13
There are quite a few Bulgarians proven R1a-YP263 and also all but one of the Bulgarian M458 fall under L1029.
It looks like Bulgarians R1a-YP263 are with Macedonian connection, so Albanians must be from the same subbranch. The TMRCA of this branch is only 1750y, so Slavic origin is likely.

Dibran
16-05-18, 18:05
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png

There are quite a few Bulgarians proven R1a-YP263 and also all but one of the Bulgarian M458 fall under L1029.
It looks like Bulgarians R1a-YP263 are with Macedonian connection, so Albanians must be from the same subbranch. The TMRCA of this branch is only 1750y, so Slavic origin is likely.

Sorry I just saw this now. I am not actually YP263. I tested negative when doing FullGenomes. YP263 actually formed 2000ypb and has a TMRCA of 1800ypb. I am actually part of a founder effect with another Albanian. Only us two so far share our branch. The founder effect is hypothetically either upstream YP263 or downstream FGC27553 besides YP263. So a sister clade if you will. However FGC27553 is unstable(per Michal) so until I have my novels all tested to define our founder clade, we wont know where it will be exactly under L1029.

Thus far out of 13 tested novels my match is positive for 6. So our founder effect within Albanians likely happened sometime around 800AD. My TMRCA with other L1029 is 2000-2300ypb however. I am testing him for the final 8 SNPs. Depending how many are positive out of the total 21 should define our accurate TMRCA between us for our founder clade. Hopefully when that is done Maciamo can add our founder clade to the Phylogenetic tree for M458.

Additionally, here is a link a user got really detailed, it is also quite recent:: http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r1a-statistic-02-2018-14-new/

Majority of M458 in Balkans per current data is part of M458-B-Eastern(YP417 and downstream clades) and YP515. YP263 falls within M458-B-Western cluster, which has the highest percentage (as far as the Balkans is concerned) in Bulgaria, and Romania. However, B-Western only comprises a little over 20% of Bulgarian M458 overall. With regards to all of Europe, B-Western(which includes L1029*-basal, FGC66323. FGC27553, YP263 and YP444) is most common in Germany and Poland, with highest diversity of downstream clades in these areas. It tapers off eastward but has some percentages in Belarus. Most L1029 in the British Isles and Sweden(however negligible) is of the B-Western variety.

With regards to the Balkans, B-Western is most common in Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia, Greece, and I guess now Albania(me and my match).

M458 reaches minimal percentages in the rest of the Balkans(Z280/Z92 is most dominant R1a), but thus far, mostly belonging to M458-B-Eastern(YP417) and YP515.

Dibran
10-06-18, 21:20
So it appears Yfull has adjusted the TMRCA of L1029 given the new sample data. it is now 100 years earlier to 100BC TMRCA 2100ypb.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/