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View Full Version : New map of YDNA haplogroup R1a-CTS1211 (aka M558 or Y93)



Maciamo
22-12-14, 16:39
Following the new map of R1a-M458, here is the map of R1a-CTS1211 (aka M558 or Y93). The distribution is more exclusively Balto-Slavic than M458, although the Czechs have very little of it.

Note that about half of all R1a in Italy, south-west France and Spain is CTS1211, meaning that it was very probably brought by the Visigoths and Ostrogoths. The Goths, although originally from southern Sweden and north-east Germany, had lived for several centuries in Poland and Ukraine before moving into the Roman Empire (starting with the Balkans), and appear to have absorbed local Proto-Slavic populations.

The map is based on the data from Underhill et al. 2014, but with a few adaptations when the total R1a frequencies didn't match my own data. For example, my data showed considerably higher levels of R1a in Slovenia and Hungary than the tiny sample from the paper, and I therefore increased the percentages. Underhill et al. didn't have any sample from France or Spain, so I had to infer the proportion based on small samples from FTDNA and adapt it to my earlier map of overall R1a.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Y93.png

Alan
22-12-14, 17:11
When I look at the Underhil et al maps.

Both M588 and M458 appear as significant in Kurdistan and Iran as in parts of the Caucasus. Or is there something I am missing?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6MK86Zivymg/UzcNpXfknGI/AAAAAAAACdc/awhkG33kX1Y/s1600/R1a-Z282+maps+small.png

Maciamo
22-12-14, 19:47
When I look at the Underhil et al maps.

Both M588 and M458 appear as significant in Kurdistan and Iran as in parts of the Caucasus. Or is there something I am missing?


The data from Underhill 2014 says that Turkish Kurdistan has 6.7% of R1a and all of it is Z93>Z95>M582. It just goes to show how these auto-generated maps aren't reliable, since it doesn't match the data on which it is based.

The M582 subclade is also found in Iran, among the Nogay and non-Ashkenazi Jews, and oddly enough also in Austria and at trace frequencies in Germany, but nowhere else. Its mother clade, Z95, is found all over the Caucasus, Iran, India and in parts of Central Asia.

arvistro
22-12-14, 21:42
Hm, Slovenes have much of it. Slovaks have significantly more than Czechs. Then there are two spots of higher frequency - border between Poland, Belarus, Ukraine. And another one, more orange, in Russia around Kursk and Moscow (?).
Balts seem to have around half of their R1A of this type.

Alan
22-12-14, 22:25
The data from Underhill 2014 says that Turkish Kurdistan has 6.7% of R1a and all of it is Z93>Z95>M582. It just goes to show how these auto-generated maps aren't reliable, since it doesn't match the data on which it is based.

The M582 subclade is also found in Iran, among the Nogay and non-Ashkenazi Jews, and oddly enough also in Austria and at trace frequencies in Germany, but nowhere else. Its mother clade, Z95, is found all over the Caucasus, Iran, India and in parts of Central Asia.
M582 must be Iranic/IranoAryan and probably brought to Europe by them. The reason why in Iran it is mostly found among Jews and Nogay could be that it is more connected to the "northern" nomad horse breeding tribes such as Scythians, Sarmatians, Medes and their successors the Parthians.

Well than Underhils samples are probably too regional biased because neither likely is it that the frequency is only 6.9% in Anatolian Kurdistan (I haven't yet seen any other study with frequency below 12%), nor is all of it entirely z93. We even have a user here who isn't (Goga). Also from the two individuals who have so far tested downstream. One has been z93 and the other z283.


1x R1a1a (Z93+, L342+, L657-, Z2122-)(Sorani from Sulaymaniyah/Iraq)
1x R1a1a (Z283+, Z282+, Z284-, M458-, Z280-, subclade 3 only his paternal great-grandfather is Kurdish from Turkey)



Well you are right it's not m558 or m458 but since z283, z93 and l62 (Goga) was found I can't imagine that there are not other downstream subclades.

Maciamo
23-12-14, 10:16
Hm, Slovenes have much of it. Slovaks have significantly more than Czechs. Then there are two spots of higher frequency - border between Poland, Belarus, Ukraine. And another one, more orange, in Russia around Kursk and Moscow (?).
Balts seem to have around half of their R1A of this type.

Yes, it's interesting to see that both Slovaks and Slovenes share high percentages of R1a-CTS1211 like East Slavs. Both the Czechs and mainland Croats, on the other hand, have very low levels (< 5%) of CTS1211, but remarkably high levels of R1a-M458. It's really as if the Slovaks and Slovenes were one group that split in two (and even chose similar flags to confuse everyone), while the Czechs and Croats form another group.

Maciamo
23-12-14, 10:21
M582 must be Iranic/IranoAryan and probably brought to Europe by them. The reason why in Iran it is mostly found among Jews and Nogay could be that it is more connected to the "northern" Nomad tribes such as Scythians, Sarmatians, Medes and their successors the Parthians.

I agree. I am just wondering who brought M582 to Austria and Germany from the Steppes without leaving traces in between. The Huns ?



Well than Underhils samples are probably too regional biased because neither likely is it that the frequency is only 6.9% in Anatolian Kurdistan (I haven't yet seen any other study with frequency below 12%), nor is all of it entirely z93. We even have a user here who isn't (Goga). Also from the two individuals who have so far tested downstream. One has been z93 and the other z283.


http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2014/10/kurdish-y-dna-part-xi.html


Well you are right it's not m558 or m458 but since z283, z93 and l62 (Goga) was found I can't imagine that there are not other downstream subclades.

There are surely other subclades. Goga's L62 is extremely rare, but there are so many branches under Z93 that I don't see why those are found in other parts of the Middle East wouldn't occasionally show up in Kurdistan.

arvistro
23-12-14, 11:44
Yes, it's interesting to see that both Slovaks and Slovenes share high percentages of R1a-CTS1211 like East Slavs. Both the Czechs and mainland Croats, on the other hand, have very low levels (< 5%) of CTS1211, but remarkably high levels of R1a-M458. It's really as if the Slovaks and Slovenes were one group that split in two (and even chose similar flags to confuse everyone), while the Czechs and Croats form another group.
Also Slovaks/Slovenes have clear Slavic ethnonime whereas for Czechs and Croats it is up to fantasy and preferences of linguists (Scythian, Turkic, some forefathers..).
My overly pattern seeking mind tries to link m458 to unclear or non-Slavic ethnonimes for Slavic folk and m558 to clear Slavic ethnonimes.

Alan
23-12-14, 18:01
I agree. I am just wondering who brought M582 to Austria and Germany from the Steppes without leaving traces in between. The Huns ?






Procopius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procopius) writes in History of the Wars Book III: The Vandalic War:[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massagetae#cite_note-15) "the Massagetae whom they now call Huns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns)" (XI. 37.), "there was a certain man among the Massagetae, well gifted with courage and strength of body, the leader of a few men; this man had the privilege handed down from his fathers and ancestors to be the first in all the Hunnic armies to attack the enemy" (XVIII. 54.).
Evagrius Scholasticus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evagrius_Scholasticus) (Ecclesiastical History. Book 3. Ch. II.): "and in Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace), by the inroads of the Huns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns), formerly known by the name of Massagetae, who crossed the Ister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ister) without opposition".[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massagetae#cite_note-16)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massagetae

The Massagetae were very strong and very feared. They defeated the Scythians and were those who started the western migration of Scythians into Cimmerian lands. The Huns were very likely these Massagetae who went into an alliance with other nomad tribes, such as the Altaic groups.

There name basically means "the great/strong Getae". massa meaning great/heavy, related to Kurdish masin (big/great/heavy) and in English as in "massive".

Some authors suggest a common origin of Thracians (Getae), Gutians (Gutea), Massagetae/Massageteans and Jats.

LeBrok
24-12-14, 04:06
Yes, it's interesting to see that both Slovaks and Slovenes share high percentages of R1a-CTS1211 like East Slavs. Both the Czechs and mainland Croats, on the other hand, have very low levels (< 5%) of CTS1211, but remarkably high levels of R1a-M458. It's really as if the Slovaks and Slovenes were one group that split in two (and even chose similar flags to confuse everyone), while the Czechs and Croats form another group.
That's my observation too.

arvistro
25-12-14, 11:19
There is a speculation that Galindo surname of Spain is related to Galindian fighters within Visigoth army.
I could not find Galindo surname project familytreedna results...

Alan
25-12-14, 18:57
@Maciamo

I took a look at the sample data. And to be honest I see my concerns confirmed. With a sample size of 30 in total for Kurds which was taken from an older study of Anatolian Kurds (Kurds Cillicia), which knowingly are botttle-necked and have less R1a* (See here => http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2011/04/variation-in-four-central-anatolian.html) and which is no comparison to the sample size of 427 for Armenians, 1300+ for Iranians or 600+ for Turks, I don't see this comparison beeing fair or even remotely representative for Kurds. Let alone if none of these few tested Kurds are from traditional Kurdistan but a Kurdish enclave from South_Central Anatolia.

By the way I discovered another two Kurdish samples with R1a* which have been listed under "Iran"

Kordestan, Iran m576
Kordestan, Iran m417
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Province

So we have three m582 from Cillica Kurds, one m576 from Iranian Kurdistan and one m417 (Basal R1a1a) from Iranian Kurdistan. Now lets add the l62 and the z283 we already had. There we have a high diversity of R1a*.

But still this study is in no way representative for Kurdistan if only 2, of the already very small sample size of 32, are from actual Kurdistan.


Edit: Heck I found out that even the frequency they pointed out is wrong. They have three R1a m582 out of 30 samples in their table. But only listed a total of "two" from 30. So even in this study it should be at least 10% R1a.

Michał
29-12-14, 18:41
Hm, Slovenes have much of it. Slovaks have significantly more than Czechs. Then there are two spots of higher frequency - border between Poland, Belarus, Ukraine.
Most of those Slovenian cases of CTS1211 are likely members of a very specific "Carpathian-Dalmatian" subclade Y2613 that seems to be most frequent in Western Balkans (including both Slovenia and Croatia) and in the Northern Carpathian region (including SE Poland, Slovakia and NW Ukraine), though Y2613 is also seen (at lower frequencies) in Austria, Hungary, Bohemia and Lusatia. There is also a relatively young potential Northern subclade of Y2613>Y2609 (or cluster Y2609-A), found in NE Poland/East Prussia, Lithuania and Latvia.

Since the NE Carpathian region (showing increased frequency of Y2613) has been once known as "White Croatia", it is also possible that this apparent Carpathian-West Balkan link is more specifically associated with the "Croat" ethnonym (or with the so-called "Old Croats") rather than with the more general ethnonym "Slavs/Slovens". It should be noted that we don't have much Y2613 (or any other "West Balkan" or "Carpathian" subclade of R1a) in Pomerania (where the Pomeranian Slovincy were living) or in Northern Russia (a land of the Ilmen Slavs/Slovene) where some completely different subclades of CTS1211 (mostly from the YP237 calde) are seen.

There are also two other subclades of CTS1211 that are quite common in both the Northern Carpathian region and in the West Balkans. These are YP343 (als known as "Carpathian) and Y2902 (known as "Volga-Carpathian") or more specifically its Western/Carpathian subclade Y3219. Importantly, Y2613, YP343 and Y3219 are only very distantly related to each other, with some of their sister clades showing a completely different distribution pattern, which suggests that they started travelling together very shortly after being included into a very specific Slavic subgrouping, residing most likely in the NE Carpathian region.



And another one, more orange, in Russia around Kursk and Moscow (?).

This region shows very high frequency of the above-mentioned Volga-Carpathian clade Y2902 (mostly its Eastern subclade Y2910). The two other major daughter clades of CTS8816 (ie. L1280 and S18681, both most frequent in Poland and East Germany) are also seen there but they are much less common in this region. Of all subclades of CTS1211 that are relatively young (ie. not older than 2500-3000 years), Y2902 is definitely the most frequent one. Importantly, it also shows a very widespread distribution (comparable to that of L1280), which together suggests that Y2902 was one of the major driving forces (besides R1a-M458 and I2a-Din) when the expansion of the Early Slavs started at the beginning of the first millennium AD.



Balts seem to have around half of their R1A of this type.
It is very hard to separate any relatively old subclades of CTS1211 (or of its sister clade Z92) that would be specifically associated with either Balts or Slavs, although its seems that YP237 (in the case of CTS1211) and YP270 (in the case of Z92) were more strongly associated with the Balts than with the Slavs (by contrast to Y33, Y2613, YP343). All this suggests that the early Balto-Slavic populations were thoroughly mixed at some early stage of their development, ie. before 1500 BC, which was most likely associated with the evolution of the Trzciniec cultural horizon.

Michał
29-12-14, 19:01
I agree. I am just wondering who brought M582 to Austria and Germany from the Steppes without leaving traces in between. The Huns ?

AFAIR, their STR haplotypes suggested quite strongly that these samples belonged to some members of the relatively young Ashkenazi Levite subclade Y2619 under M582 (or under CTS6 from the same level), so we can assume that they represented some assimilated Ashkenazi Jews. By contrast, all non-Jewish Middle Eastern M582 haplotypes belonged to some evidently early separated clusters. Importantly, M582 (or CTS6) is estimated to be about 3000 years old (based on both SNPs and STRs), while Y2619 is only about 1200-1500 years old, so I would not associate the above-mentioned Central European M582 cases with the Huns.

arvistro
29-12-14, 19:52
Thanks Michal! A lot of useful information. Is there any chance that R1a z280 and its subclades can be found nicely visualised as it is for example done by Georg Dunkel for N tree?
I know only general R1a tree picture which is good to understand overall structure but does not go down as detailed on SNP level..

Michał
30-12-14, 15:32
Thanks Michal! A lot of useful information. Is there any chance that R1a z280 and its subclades can be found nicely visualised as it is for example done by Georg Dunkel for N tree?
I know only general R1a tree picture which is good to understand overall structure but does not go down as detailed on SNP level..
I'm afraid I will never be able to create such a nice scheme as that produced by Georg Dunkel for haplogroup N. :)

Also, as a not-so-frequent poster I am not allowed to provide any links or images, but you can visit the Russian Molgen forum to find some NGS-based schemes for branch Z280 made by Semargl. On the English Molgen forum (Genetic Genealogy Community forum), I have also placed my BigY-based draft tree for branch Z280, but it hasn't been updated since October, so many important new data are missing.

jasho
24-04-15, 18:05
I am from Dalmatia and my roots are from origin of croatian kingdom. I am R-CTS3402. Negative for R-L579, R-L365, R-F2686, R-L366, R-CTS-11142. What this means?

Garrick
02-06-15, 01:41
I am from Dalmatia and my roots are from origin of croatian kingdom. I am R-CTS3402. Negative for R-L579, R-L365, R-F2686, R-L366, R-CTS-11142. What this means?

It is interesting, Prince Nikita Drutskoy-Sokolinsky is carrier R-CTS3402, also.

Russian Nobility DNA:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/RussianNobilityDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

About ancestors of the heirs of the leading families of Europe: Drutskoy-Sokolynski

http://heirsofeurope.blogspot.com/2010/04/drutskoy-sokolinsky.html

Tomenable
02-06-15, 14:48
It's really as if the Slovaks and Slovenes were one group that split in two, while the Czechs and Croats form another group.

Slovene language is also most closely related to Slovak language out of all West Slavic languages.

However, Slovene languages also show close ties with neighbouring South Slavic languages.

As for the patterns of R1a subclades:

While Czechs-Croats are on one extreme and Slovenes-Slovaks on another, Poles are intermediate with between 40-60 to 60-40 proportions between M458 and Z280 as well as their downstream subclades (depending on study and sample).

Slovenes and Croats also share high % of I2a-Din with each other, and with East Slavs and other South Slavs - but not with Czechs, Slovaks and Poles.

So it seems to me that the Balkans were colonized by Slavs from two directions - one migration from Ukraine-Moldova-Romania, one from Poland-Czechoslovakia. This is also confirmed by historical written records, by the way.

And it shows that various groups of Slavs had different proportions of various haplogroups already during the time of expansion.

Tomenable
02-06-15, 15:01
Also Slovaks/Slovenes have clear Slavic ethnonime

"Slavs" - like "Germanics" - is a linguistic umbrella term describing speakers of so called "Slavic" languages.

Originally, "Slavs" was a Greco-Roman corruption for "Sloveni", which was only one of many tribes who spoke that language.

The history of the term "Germanics" is the same - originally it applied only to one specific tribe, the Tungri.

Already during the 500s AD speakers of Late Common Slavic were divided into many ethnonyms, of which "Sloveni" was only one. One of other branches of speakers of that language was known as the Antes. So "Slavic" - "Antic" and "Slavs" - "Ants" can be used interchangeably.

====================================

Jordanes wrote about Slavic-speaking nations in the 500s AD:


"(...) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Carpathians as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noviodunum_%28castra%29) and the lake called Mursianus [marshes at the juncture of the Drava and the Danube] to the Dniester, and northward as far as the Vistula. (...) The Antes (...) dwelling above the curve of the sea of Pontus , spread from the Dniester to the Dnieper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (...)"

Procopius wrote about Slavic-speaking nations in the 500s AD:


"(...) For these nations, the Sclaveni and the Antes, are not ruled by one man, but they have lived from of old under a democracy, and consequently everything which involves their welfare, whether for good or for ill, is referred to the people. It is also true that in all other matters, practically speaking, these two barbarian peoples have had from ancient times the same institutions and customs. For they believe that one god, the maker of lightning, is alone lord of all things, and they sacrifice to him cattle and all other victims. (...) When they enter battle, the majority of them go against their enemy on foot carrying shields and javelins in their hands, but they never wear corselets. Indeed, some of them do not wear even a shirt or a cloak, but gathering their trews up as far as to their private parts they enter into battle with their opponents. [B]And both the two peoples have also the same language [Late Common Slavic], an utterly barbarous tongue. Nay further, they do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blonde, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are all slightly ruddy in color. And they live a hard life, giving no heed to bodily comforts, just as the Massagetae do. (...) In fact, the Sclaveni and the Antes actually had a single name in the remote past; for they were both called Spori in olden times, because, I suppose, living apart one man from another, they inhabit their country in a sporadic fashion. And in consequence of this very fact they hold a great amount of land; for they alone inhabit the greatest part of the northern bank of the Danube. So much then may be said regarding these peoples. (...)"

Tomenable
02-06-15, 15:27
I know only general R1a tree picture which is good to understand overall structure but does not go down as detailed on SNP level..

Balto-Slavs generally belong to Z280 and M458 (among Poles proportions of the two branches are 50-50, or from 40-60 to 60-40). But perhaps those branches weren't exclusively Balto-Slavic, but also shared by some other - today extinct - Indo-European linguistic groups, such as the Daco-Thracian languages, or the hypothetical Venedic languages (which could be closely related to both Balto-Slavic and Daco-Thracian):

http://s17.postimg.org/hsnaex6xb/R1a_tree.png

http://s17.postimg.org/hsnaex6xb/R1a_tree.png

Daco-Thracian is a hypothetical language family that was probably closely related to Balto-Slavic language family:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Classification_of_Thracian&redirect=no#Daco-Thracian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

arvistro
30-09-15, 13:51
New study says over 90% of Latvian R1a is m558. Over 33% of total Y.
Although maybe they just assigned everything non m458 as m558 :)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31599-Y-Chromosomal-Lineages-of-Latvians

Boreas
25-12-15, 21:23
Any more information about R-Z280

Shetop
24-05-16, 12:57
This sentence from the R1a article confused one of the forum members:


R1a-Z280 is also an Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe (except in the Balkans)

And it is not surprising he was confused because a part of this particular sentence is not correct. In fact, R-Z280 is more common in the Balkans than any other R1a subclade (including R-M458).

mikekaspar
02-01-17, 03:03
Hello. This is my first post. I was referred from another site, because I'm confused about my results: Z280-CTS1211-Y35-CTS3402-Y2613-Y2609-x [Y2608-]. There are so many knowledgeable people here; this must be a boring request. I want it understand what these results mean. It doesn't seem that I have many relatives based on these results. Of course this is from my Y chromosome and my last name is Kaspar. (Also, if someone can help, it appears that the surname, Lesikar, on my maternal side is rare. And, have no idea where it comes from or what it means.) Can anybody help? Thanks.

mikejz
12-03-17, 23:09
I think I'm in a similar situation. My results are similar to yours, Z280-CTS1211-Y35-CTS3402-Y2613. I'm negative for Y2609 though. I'm on Family Tree DNA but have no matches of Y-DNA in the whole database. It's very confusing. My father's family didn't pass down any info so all we know is that my paternal grandfather was born in Minsk, Belarus, Jan 15, 1894. Anyone have thoughts on what I can/should do at this point?

Daemon2017
15-07-17, 14:18
User TK from neighboring Russian forum prepared a map of CTS1211's subclades diversity.
http://savepic.ru/14703746.jpg

Daemon2017
02-12-17, 15:07
UPD:
very detailed
9476
with gradient
9477
normal
9478

lndy0430
07-12-17, 05:56
Hi,I'm Chinese,from Central China.My result is R1a1a1b1a2b3, Z280-CTS1211.I wonder when my ancestor came to China from Europe.

Ygorcs
07-12-17, 07:07
Hi,I'm Chinese,from Central China.My result is R1a1a1b1a2b3, Z280-CTS1211.I wonder when my ancestor came to China from Europe.

Wow, man, your Y-DNA is extremely rare for Central China. If youhad R1a-Z93 it could be easily assumed that you descended from one of the Tocharian or Iranian tribes that lived in what is now Western China, but R1a-Z280 is way more expected in Central and Eastern Europe and not very frequent anywhere in Asia as far as I know. It's mostly associated with Balto-Slavic peoples, so I can only imagine for now that your paternal ancestor lived in the Russian or Ukrainian steppe or forest-steppe areas and there he became a part (as a warrior, a slave, a merchant? We'll never know) of one of the far-reaching and very mobile tribal confederacies that often spanned roughly from Russia to Central Asia (Kyrghizstan, perhaps parts of Xinjiang).

felipeschmidt25
07-01-18, 00:39
I m R1a Y2613 and my direct background is northeastern italian(Vicenza Province). Does somebody knows how this ydna came from italy? Goths or some recently migration?

Wonomyro
07-01-18, 01:15
Hi,I'm Chinese,from Central China.My result is R1a1a1b1a2b3, Z280-CTS1211.I wonder when my ancestor came to China from Europe.

There is a recent study on Croatian Y-DNA chromosome:

"Genetic heritage of Croatians in the Southeastern European gene pool—Y chromosome analysis of the Croatian continental and Island population (June 2016)"

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876/abstract



Results

A high diversity of haplogroups was observed in the overall Croatian sample, and all typical European Y chromosome haplogroups with corresponding clinal patterns were observed. Three distinct genetic signals were identifiable in the Croatian paternal gene pool - I2a1b-M423, R1a1a1b1a*-M558, and E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 haplogroups.


You posses a typical Croatian R1a subclade!


Now take a deep breath...


Marco Polo was born in 1254[9][nb 1] in the Republic of Venice.[10] His exact date and place of birth are archivally unknown.[11][12] Some historians mentioned that he was born on September 15[13][14] but that date is not endorsed by mainstream scholarship.[citation needed] Marco Polo's birthplace is generally considered Venice,[12][15] but also varies between Constantinople[16][12] and the island of Korčula.[17][12][18][19] There is dispute as to whether the Polo family is of Venetian origin, as Venetian historical sources considered them to be of Dalmatian origin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo

Dalmatia is part of Croatia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia


Theoretically, there is a chance that you are descended from Marco Polo! :)

Bachus
07-01-18, 01:24
Hi,I'm Chinese,from Central China.My result is R1a1a1b1a2b3, Z280-CTS1211.I wonder when my ancestor came to China from Europe.

Your ancestor by male line was probably Turkic or Scythian (Tocharian).

Wonomyro
07-01-18, 01:40
Your ancestor by male line was probably Turkic or Scythian (Tocharian). Realy? How did you get that?

Wonomyro
07-01-18, 01:44
I m R1a Y2613 and my direct background is northeastern italian(Vicenza Province). Does somebody knows how this ydna came from italy? Goths or some recently migration?

Most probably from Dalmatia via Venice. There was a large Croatian colony in Venice in the past.

Bachus
07-01-18, 01:54
Realy? How did you get that?

I did not see well, I thought that he is R1a-Z93.

Wonomyro
07-01-18, 02:02
I did not see well, I thought that he is R1a-Z93.

You are too jumpy, @Bachus. Just relax. :grin:

felipeschmidt25
07-01-18, 06:44
Could be from Dalmatia or even Trieste. But where exctaly Ostroghts settled in Italy? I dont know really if it could be Gothic or recently Croatian cause Y2613 has the MRCA in 4000-3200 years ago, so it is remote and could came with the Goths too. Does somebody have a article with % of Y2613 distribution? Also i will do BIGY for discover more about my direct paternal linage(Santacatterina family).

Wonomyro
07-01-18, 18:47
Could be from Dalmatia or even Trieste. But where exctaly Ostroghts settled in Italy? I dont know really if it could be Gothic or recently Croatian cause Y2613 has the MRCA in 4000-3200 years ago, so it is remote and could came with the Goths too. Does somebody have a article with % of Y2613 distribution? Also i will do BIGY for discover more about my direct paternal linage(Santacatterina family).

Some of the Polish nobility from Masovia has that mutation:

https://www.worldfamilies.net/geo/masovian/results

The one you are looking for is called "Carpathian-Croatian" Subclade. One can also notice many brother clades in the area.

hrvat22
07-01-18, 23:32
I m R1a Y2613 and my direct background is northeastern italian(Vicenza Province). Does somebody knows how this ydna came from italy? Goths or some recently migration?

Very possibly Slovenian or Croatian male ancestor, my dear Brazilian brother.

Wonomyro
08-01-18, 02:20
Schiavoni. Look how important they were in Venice:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiavone

Croatian promenade:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riva_degli_Schiavoni

felipeschmidt25
08-01-18, 07:14
Its interessing. Maybe could be it. I dont really know why i m Y2613. There are a lot possibilites. I usually talk about ostrogoths cause they settled in verona-vicenza area, however there are much more to find,the Croatian hypotesis should be true, however without bigY or even a documental confirmation i wont know.

lndy0430
13-01-18, 09:17
Wow, man, your Y-DNA is extremely rare for Central China. If youhad R1a-Z93 it could be easily assumed that you descended from one of the Tocharian or Iranian tribes that lived in what is now Western China, but R1a-Z280 is way more expected in Central and Eastern Europe and not very frequent anywhere in Asia as far as I know. It's mostly associated with Balto-Slavic peoples, so I can only imagine for now that your paternal ancestor lived in the Russian or Ukrainian steppe or forest-steppe areas and there he became a part (as a warrior, a slave, a merchant? We'll never know) of one of the far-reaching and very mobile tribal confederacies that often spanned roughly from Russia to Central Asia (Kyrghizstan, perhaps parts of Xinjiang).Yes, I agree with you. Because I found 110 people of R1a in China, only two men(include me) is R1a European type (R1a1a1b1), and the rest are Z93 Asian type.My SNP results will come out less than a month later, and then I think it will be more clear.Thx :)

lndy0430
13-01-18, 09:33
Sorry,Wonomyro , I could't reply you from the website,here is my reply:
Is it? This is really interesting, because I thought my ancestors came to China during the Mongolia Empire, but now I have a new idea:)

Dibran
13-01-18, 18:10
Sorry,Wonomyro , I could't reply you from the website,here is my reply:
Is it? This is really interesting, because I thought my ancestors came to China during the Mongolia Empire, but now I have a new idea:)
There is still a possibility Scytho-Sarmatians or western most scythians could have carried Z280 as well. Maybe one got caught in eastern tribal movements.

lndy0430
14-01-18, 08:51
Yes,that is possible, and the process of coming to East Asia may be a long time.

lndy0430
14-01-18, 08:53
There is still a possibility Scytho-Sarmatians or western most scythians could have carried Z280 as well. Maybe one got caught in eastern tribal movements.Yes,that is possible, and the process of coming to East Asia may be a long time.

lndy0430
17-03-18, 10:26
Hi, I have completed my SNP test. Now I have appeared in TREE under CTS3402-YP237-YP951. I am waiting for the update of YFULL. YFULL ID: ELT50012

RajvoSa
18-03-18, 01:02
There is still a possibility Scytho-Sarmatians or western most scythians could have carried Z280 as well. Maybe one got caught in eastern tribal movements.

No one of tested Scythians weren't Z280.

lndy0430
24-04-18, 18:27
Although my position haven't updated, I know that I am YP4530, and I will set up a new branch after the next update. YP4532 is my downstream. YP4530&YP4532 seems to be distributed in Western Ukraine and southeastern Poland. Do anyone know more about them? Thank you

Srbadija
05-02-19, 02:53
There is still a possibility Scytho-Sarmatians or western most scythians could have carried Z280 as well. Maybe one got caught in eastern tribal movements.

It could be only captured Slavic prisoner among Scytho-Sarmatian tribes. Specific mutation for Indo-Iranian speakers happened as Z93, and the specifical one for Balto-Slavic speakers Z280.

baltek
05-04-19, 11:25
Hi,

I have a similar situation to lndy0430. I am an ethnic Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan. As far as I know, my ancestors on the father side are ethnic Kyrgyz to at least 7 generations. Info about your fathers is transferred from the father to son in the Central Asian nomadic cultures.

I found that my Y haplogroup is R1a1a1b1a2b1 (R-P278.2). Surprisingly, this is not R1a-Z93 but a Slavic line. I am wondering if my ancestor on the father side came to Kyrgyzstan long time ago as a warrior or a slave from Carpatia as an Ancient Bulgar. It seems like present day Turkic speaking Gagauz people living around Carpathian mountains are remnants of those ancient Bulgars. An indirect evidence of their Bulgar origin is their Christian beliefs dating back to the times preceding the Ottoman Empire of the 13th century. Any ideas about that?

Dibran
08-04-19, 01:10
It could be only captured Slavic prisoner among Scytho-Sarmatian tribes. Specific mutation for Indo-Iranian speakers happened as Z93, and the specifical one for Balto-Slavic speakers Z280.

Well you’re obviously dead wrong now. Considering the recent paper on Hums/Avars found Z280 in non-Slavic elite graves. That’s why it’s important not to be decisive and act like we have all the facts. You can’t possibly be an authority of ancient migrations be they individually or collectively.

Dibran
08-04-19, 01:14
Hi,

I have a similar situation to lndy0430. I am an ethnic Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan. As far as I know, my ancestors on the father side are ethnic Kyrgyz to at least 7 generations. Info about your fathers is transferred from the father to son in the Central Asian nomadic cultures.

I found that my Y haplogroup is R1a1a1b1a2b1 (R-P278.2). Surprisingly, this is not R1a-Z93 but a Slavic line. I am wondering if my ancestor on the father side came to Kyrgyzstan long time ago as a warrior or a slave from Carpatia as an Ancient Bulgar. It seems like present day Turkic speaking Gagauz people living around Carpathian mountains are remnants of those ancient Bulgars. An indirect evidence of their Bulgar origin is their Christian beliefs dating back to the times preceding the Ottoman Empire of the 13th century. Any ideas about that?


I suppose it depends how close your slavic YDNA matches are. Recent paper on Huns/Avars/Magyars found Z280 in elite conqueror graves. Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. If you only match Slavs at the base level, then it could have been assimilated long before the migration. The recent paper references showed as much. These Z280 elite graves were non-Slavic and it appears their line was integrated before the migration period. So not every case is exactly the same. Depends on your matches and the distance.

baltek
08-04-19, 07:18
I suppose it depends how close your slavic YDNA matches are. Recent paper on Huns/Avars/Magyars found Z280 in elite conqueror graves. Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. If you only match Slavs at the base level, then it could have been assimilated long before the migration. The recent paper references showed as much. These Z280 elite graves were non-Slavic and it appears their line was integrated before the migration period. So not every case is exactly the same. Depends on your matches and the distance.
Thank you Dibran.

What do you mean how close your slavic YDNA matches are? The R-P278.2 seems to be the best possible subclade. Is there any publication matching more Snps rsid and location?

Also I do not understand you saying Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. Why are two ages different?

Is anything known of a massive migration towards the east? My and Indy0430 cases seem to be linked as the subclades come from Carpathian mountains.

baltek
08-04-19, 07:29
I suppose it depends how close your slavic YDNA matches are. Recent paper on Huns/Avars/Magyars found Z280 in elite conqueror graves. Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. If you only match Slavs at the base level, then it could have been assimilated long before the migration. The recent paper references showed as much. These Z280 elite graves were non-Slavic and it appears their line was integrated before the migration period. So not every case is exactly the same. Depends on your matches and the distance.
Do you mean R-P278.2 was not Slavic back then because the Slavic migration happened in 6th century AD only?

halfalp
08-04-19, 10:46
Thank you Dibran.

What do you mean how close your slavic YDNA matches are? The R-P278.2 seems to be the best possible subclade. Is there any publication matching more Snps rsid and location?

Also I do not understand you saying Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. Why are two ages different?

Is anything known of a massive migration towards the east? My and Indy0430 cases seem to be linked as the subclades come from Carpathian mountains.

When a clade is formed by a founder effect, exemple R1a-Z93 was formed at some point, it doesn't mean that the first R1a with the snp's for Z93 is the ancestor of all Z93 today, it's unlikely. Instead one of his kin became the ancestors of all modern Z93 at some point. The latter is called the Most Recent Common Ancestor.

It basically means that, if you are Z280, this clade formed at some point in time, and is found in modern Slavic peoples, but it doesn't mean your ancestor was Slavic, it could have came in Central Asia with Z93 at some point and became Turkic at some point too.

baltek
08-04-19, 11:23
Merci beaucoup halfalp. I see your point. I think that the haplogroup diversity quickly falls over time in the isolated groups. E.g. I have two daughters. So any eventual SNP will disappear with me. The Kyrgyz people are an isolated group due to living in the mountains and thus preserving their original Z93 line.

So my argument is that the presence of such a rare haplogroup line (R-P278.2) may mean some mass migration at some point given the distance that separates Tian Shan from Carpathian mountains. The thing is that Saka/Scythian people with Z93 from Andronovo culture were already living in Central Asia when R-P278.2 got formed 3000 ybp. So the only way R-P278.2 appeared in Central Asia is a migration. I found though that some Tatars also have R-P278.2.

Whatever happened, I am still hoping to narrow down my R-P278.2 even more. The thing is that I cannot translate SNPs listed at yfull in the format like YP5285 * YP5286 * YP5284 to Reference SNP cluster IDs. If this were possible, I would track those rsids in my 23andme raw data myself. Does anyone know how to translate those SNPs to rsids?

Ordas
10-04-19, 16:45
I agree. I am just wondering who brought M582 to Austria and Germany from the Steppes without leaving traces in between. The Huns ?



There are surely other subclades. Goga's L62 is extremely rare, but there are so many branches under Z93 that I don't see why those are found in other parts of the Middle East wouldn't occasionally show up in Kurdistan.
Could it be that the CTS1211 is odf Skytian-Sarmatian origin? Huns and Avars have alot of Z2124. Hungarian Conquerors had 3/29 CTS1211 and onevof them a VIP (grave K2/41) with rich grave goods.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/597997v1
To that time the western border of the hungarian theritory was the upper Ens river(today Austria), but they have done raids to Germany too. On the other hand proto slavic people could have got this SNP from Sarmatians. There were a lot of them in Roman legions, so they could have spread it a lot. Poland has also a lot of it and it is known they have some Sarmatian heritage too. Same for Hungarians and neighboring Slavs.

Ordas
10-04-19, 16:57
Also Slovaks/Slovenes have clear Slavic ethnonime whereas for Czechs and Croats it is up to fantasy and preferences of linguists (Scythian, Turkic, some forefathers..).
My overly pattern seeking mind tries to link m458 to unclear or non-Slavic ethnonimes for Slavic folk and m558 to clear Slavic ethnonimes.
It seems like that, but may be it's not a Proto Slavic but most likely a Skytho-Sarmatian SNP?

Dibran
11-04-19, 20:23
It seems like that, but may be it's not a Proto Slavic but most likely a Skytho-Sarmatian SNP?

The problem is we have no ancient DNA to go by, and based on modern distribution being dominant in Central Europe/West Slavs its the easiest bandwagon to get on. M458 I think was pivotal to the Slavic Ethnogenesis, or at least its descending clades. Theres alot of Nogai Turkic speakers were basal M458, even some clades under like L260 and L1029. If the oral legend of the West Slavs that the "sons of Avars with Slavic wives rebelled against their fathers under Samo" is true(if of course), than for all we know some M458 could have been from Avars or Sarmatians and what not. Some of the older theories was that M458 originated from Western Hungary. This isn't accepted though as Pannonians are regarded as Celtic/Illyrian "like". Interestingly the King of Pannoni(before being included under Illyricum after defeat of Rome) was called "Bato", a very commonly used Slavic name. Or perhaps adopted when they settled the area. I guess its just a waiting game for ancient samples. Being they practiced cremation heavily It could be an indication of its link to Proto-Slavs. I don't think steppe folk like Avars, Sarmatians etc cremated their dead. Though I could be wrong.

Ordas
11-04-19, 22:40
The problem is we have no ancient DNA to go by, and based on modern distribution being dominant in Central Europe/West Slavs its the easiest bandwagon to get on. M458 I think was pivotal to the Slavic Ethnogenesis, or at least its descending clades. Theres alot of Nogai Turkic speakers were basal M458, even some clades under like L260 and L1029. If the oral legend of the West Slavs that the "sons of Avars with Slavic wives rebelled against their fathers under Samo" is true(if of course), than for all we know some M458 could have been from Avars or Sarmatians and what not. Some of the older theories was that M458 originated from Western Hungary. This isn't accepted though as Pannonians are regarded as Celtic/Illyrian "like". Interestingly the King of Pannoni(before being included under Illyricum after defeat of Rome) was called "Bato", a very commonly used Slavic name. Or perhaps adopted when they settled the area. I guess its just a waiting game for ancient samples. Being they practiced cremation heavily It could be an indication of its link to Proto-Slavs. I don't think steppe folk like Avars, Sarmatians etc cremated their dead. Though I could be wrong.Very interesting points. Has Bato any meaning in Slavic Language? In Hungarian and in Mongolian Bator means brave, respectively warrior. I don't know if it is found also in Turkic Languages. Maybe someone can tell. As far as I know Huns, Avars, Sarmatians did not cremated their dead. West Hungary in roman times and after, maybe befor too was a melting pot of different people. From wich time to wich time did slavs cremate their dead? As I know Proto slavs mayhave lived long time in the neighbourhood of the Skytians and Sarmatians so most likely with cultural exchange they exchanged also SNPs. Hopefully new aDNA will shed some more lite in this issue.

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baltek
12-04-19, 09:29
Yes, Batyr, Baatyr, Bahadur are also used in Turkic languages. Even Russians have it. It sounds like Bogatyr, probably, borrowed from Turco-Mongols during the golden Horde times.

baltek
12-04-19, 09:33
The problem is we have no ancient DNA to go by, and based on modern distribution being dominant in Central Europe/West Slavs its the easiest bandwagon to get on. M458 I think was pivotal to the Slavic Ethnogenesis, or at least its descending clades. Theres alot of Nogai Turkic speakers were basal M458, even some clades under like L260 and L1029. If the oral legend of the West Slavs that the "sons of Avars with Slavic wives rebelled against their fathers under Samo" is true(if of course), than for all we know some M458 could have been from Avars or Sarmatians and what not. Some of the older theories was that M458 originated from Western Hungary. This isn't accepted though as Pannonians are regarded as Celtic/Illyrian "like". Interestingly the King of Pannoni(before being included under Illyricum after defeat of Rome) was called "Bato", a very commonly used Slavic name. Or perhaps adopted when they settled the area. I guess its just a waiting game for ancient samples. Being they practiced cremation heavily It could be an indication of its link to Proto-Slavs. I don't think steppe folk like Avars, Sarmatians etc cremated their dead. Though I could be wrong.
Could you please point at any DNA research on Nogais? As far as I know Nogais and Kyrgyz are somehow related to each other. Nogais unlike other Turkic tribes are mentionned in the traditional Kyrgyz songs.

lndy0430
12-04-19, 17:24
Hi,

I have a similar situation to lndy0430. I am an ethnic Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan. As far as I know, my ancestors on the father side are ethnic Kyrgyz to at least 7 generations. Info about your fathers is transferred from the father to son in the Central Asian nomadic cultures.

I found that my Y haplogroup is R1a1a1b1a2b1 (R-P278.2). Surprisingly, this is not R1a-Z93 but a Slavic line. I am wondering if my ancestor on the father side came to Kyrgyzstan long time ago as a warrior or a slave from Carpatia as an Ancient Bulgar. It seems like present day Turkic speaking Gagauz people living around Carpathian mountains are remnants of those ancient Bulgars. An indirect evidence of their Bulgar origin is their Christian beliefs dating back to the times preceding the Ottoman Empire of the 13th century. Any ideas about that?
For your situation, it is better to do a SNPs test and join the YFULL.

Milan.M
12-04-19, 19:11
Very interesting points. Has Bato any meaning in Slavic Language?
Has a meaning like father,pater,governor,older brother.Mostly in eastern and south slavic dialects.However it's etymology come from "brother".
Is it related i do not know.

Dibran
12-04-19, 20:18
Could you please point at any DNA research on Nogais? As far as I know Nogais and Kyrgyz are somehow related to each other. Nogais unlike other Turkic tribes are mentionned in the traditional Kyrgyz songs.

It isn't the most dominant line of course. But it reaches between 10-20. Here are the two separate sources on the matter. Keep in mind the first link has alot of opinions but it mentioned M458 Nogai.

http://suyun.info/userfiles/bulletin/2016-8/eng_Nogais2_20161009_8_[1_2]_3_BEHPS_2016_8.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3355373/

Dibran
12-04-19, 20:24
Very interesting points. Has Bato any meaning in Slavic Language? In Hungarian and in Mongolian Bator means brave, respectively warrior. I don't know if it is found also in Turkic Languages. Maybe someone can tell. As far as I know Huns, Avars, Sarmatians did not cremated their dead. West Hungary in roman times and after, maybe befor too was a melting pot of different people. From wich time to wich time did slavs cremate their dead? As I know Proto slavs mayhave lived long time in the neighbourhood of the Skytians and Sarmatians so most likely with cultural exchange they exchanged also SNPs. Hopefully new aDNA will shed some more lite in this issue.

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I agree. I think because most slavic middle aged remains are cremated(prior to Christianization) that the assumption is M458 are Slavic cause remains haven't popped up yet so they must have "cremated their dead". Of course absence of samples doesn't necessarily mean M458 or all if it cremated their dead. As you say the cultural exchange between these peoples, maybe not all practiced the same funeral rites. For instance its said the Huns had a similar rite that is commonly Slavic at the funeral of Attila, referencing the possible ethnically mixed nature of these steppe folk. Maybe thats why not all Slavs are "uniform" in ethnic origin. Most M458 diversity is in Central Europe. As I understand diversity is usually contingent with possible origin or at least major settlement. Absent ancient DNA most papers have just called it "Central European". Sadly I think the last big paper on this matter was 2014. So its been 5 years since any serious paper mentioned M458 or its developing clades. No ancient DNA either. Yet we have 2000 plus ancient Bronze Age Tollense warriors and no YDNA reported since it was discovered like 5 years ago. Very fishyyy. lol

hrvat22
12-04-19, 20:24
From wich time to wich time did slavs cremate their dead?

Probably until time when they become Christians.

Ordas
15-04-19, 23:42
For instance its said the Huns had a similar rite that is commonly Slavic at the funeral of Attila, referencing the possible ethnically mixed nature of these steppe folk.

Do you mean Huns did cremated their dead? As I know and legend tells, Atilla was not cremated but was buried in 3 coffins under a river.

Regarding fishyyy, you are right. It will be difficult to prove.


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Ordas
15-04-19, 23:42
Probably until time when they become Christians.Thank you!

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Ordas
15-04-19, 23:45
Has a meaning like father,pater,governor,older brother.Mostly in eastern and south slavic dialects.However it's etymology come from "brother".
Is it related i do not know.Thank you Milan!

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Ordas
16-04-19, 00:22
Hi,

I have a similar situation to lndy0430. I am an ethnic Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan. As far as I know, my ancestors on the father side are ethnic Kyrgyz to at least 7 generations. Info about your fathers is transferred from the father to son in the Central Asian nomadic cultures.

I found that my Y haplogroup is R1a1a1b1a2b1 (R-P278.2). Surprisingly, this is not R1a-Z93 but a Slavic line. I am wondering if my ancestor on the father side came to Kyrgyzstan long time ago as a warrior or a slave from Carpatia as an Ancient Bulgar. It seems like present day Turkic speaking Gagauz people living around Carpathian mountains are remnants of those ancient Bulgars. An indirect evidence of their Bulgar origin is their Christian beliefs dating back to the times preceding the Ottoman Empire of the 13th century. Any ideas about that?I don't think it is a slavic line. Yes today it is widely spred among slavic people but this means not it is its origin. It's origin is most likely from the Srubna and/or Andronovo culture. This people were among the ancestors of the Cimmerians and Skythians. The Skythians inhabited a wide range from the Carpathians to Liao River, so your father line could be just from there some where.
Some Hungarian Conquerors also R-CST1211 most likely from Srubna-Andronovo descent (also mtDNA shows in the same direction). It wi!l be hard to tel where your fathers line come from, but I think this is the most probable - through Skythian descent.

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Johane Derite
30-04-19, 21:48
The problem is we have no ancient DNA to go by, and based on modern distribution being dominant in Central Europe/West Slavs its the easiest bandwagon to get on. M458 I think was pivotal to the Slavic Ethnogenesis, or at least its descending clades. Theres alot of Nogai Turkic speakers were basal M458, even some clades under like L260 and L1029. If the oral legend of the West Slavs that the "sons of Avars with Slavic wives rebelled against their fathers under Samo" is true(if of course), than for all we know some M458 could have been from Avars or Sarmatians and what not. Some of the older theories was that M458 originated from Western Hungary. This isn't accepted though as Pannonians are regarded as Celtic/Illyrian "like". Interestingly the King of Pannoni(before being included under Illyricum after defeat of Rome) was called "Bato", a very commonly used Slavic name. Or perhaps adopted when they settled the area. I guess its just a waiting game for ancient samples. Being they practiced cremation heavily It could be an indication of its link to Proto-Slavs. I don't think steppe folk like Avars, Sarmatians etc cremated their dead. Though I could be wrong.

Albanian. Bac/Bacë, meaning "Elder, Uncle" from proto Abanian "Batja". Bato is obviously related to Bacë. The Slavic version is a cognate with it, but wasn't present in the balkans in the time.

Bac is an omnipresent term, especially for heroes etc. For example the famous "Bac, u kry" slogan (Uncle, it's over) about Adem Jashari:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sq/thumb/4/47/Bacukry.jpg/350px-Bacukry.jpg

LABERIA
30-04-19, 22:03
Albanian. Bac/Bacë, meaning "Elder, Uncle" from proto Abanian "Batja". Bato is obviously related to Bacë. The Slavic version is a cognate with it, but wasn't present in the balkans in the time.

Bac is an omnipresent term, especially for heroes etc. For example the famous "Bac, u kry" slogan (Uncle, it's over) about Adem Jashari:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sq/thumb/4/47/Bacukry.jpg/350px-Bacukry.jpg

I think the name Bato among South Slavs started to be used mostly during the XX century, especially during the communism regime. Do they have medieval name Bato?

Ordas
02-05-19, 12:31
Albanian. Bac/Bacë, meaning "Elder, Uncle" from proto Abanian "Batja". Bato is obviously related to Bacë. The Slavic version is a cognate with it, but wasn't present in the balkans in the time.

Bac is an omnipresent term, especially for heroes etc. For example the famous "Bac, u kry" slogan (Uncle, it's over) about Adem Jashari:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sq/thumb/4/47/Bacukry.jpg/350px-Bacukry.jpgHm, interesting. In hungarian bácsi means unkle/ elderly man and báty means older brother. Nagy báty means unkle. Nagy means big. Nagy bátyám literally my big older brother - my brother of my father - my uncle...

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LABERIA
02-05-19, 13:12
Hm, interesting. In hungarian bácsi means unkle/ elderly man and báty means older brother. Nagy báty means unkle. Nagy means big. Nagy bátyám literally my big older brother - my brother of my father - my uncle...

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Ordas, i would like to ask you something but first of all i apologize to the other members for the off-topic.
You have a historical figure in Hungary called Pal Tomori. I have been curious about his name and surname. Because the name Pal in Albania is used by both, Catholics and Orthodox and is the Albanian form of the name Paul. Meanwhile Tomor is the name of an mountain here in Albania. Albania is full with mountains but this mountain is very specific, is a sacred mountain for Albanians and we call this mountain Father Tomor. I have been interested in other forums about this Pal Tomori, he is clearly an Hungarian, but i have never learned why there is this similarity. Do you have any idea? Thanks in advance.

Dibran
04-05-19, 20:55
Albanian. Bac/Bacë, meaning "Elder, Uncle" from proto Abanian "Batja". Bato is obviously related to Bacë. The Slavic version is a cognate with it, but wasn't present in the balkans in the time.

Bac is an omnipresent term, especially for heroes etc. For example the famous "Bac, u kry" slogan (Uncle, it's over) about Adem Jashari:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sq/thumb/4/47/Bacukry.jpg/350px-Bacukry.jpg

Cool. Didn’t know that. Thank you. Idk why I don’t get notified when people reply. Is there a feature in settings I’m supposed to adjust?

baltek
01-12-19, 23:41
It seems that r1a-p278.2 and other brother subclades, like indy0430 case, living in Carpathian mountains, may be linked to White Croats. Croat is known to be a Sarmatian tribe. See examples like Horvat, Sarmat, Massaget, Skolot etc.

Perhaps, p278.2 and its brother subclades appeared in South Sibiria/Russia. During its initial expansion, some Sarmathians might have moved to Carpathia, others to the south, Central Asia. This would explain why only Carpathian lines spread from China to Slovakia.

Any ideas or critics?