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Robert6
22-12-14, 23:47
What haplogroup was among people of Keltiminar culture and among people of Pit-Comb Ware culture?
Your opinions on this?


And here is some help from Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelteminar_culture
Scientists hold that Kelteminar culture is related to the Pit–Comb Ware culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2%80%93Comb_Ware_culture)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2%80%93Comb_Ware_culture
Some of this region was absorbed by the later Corded Ware horizon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture).

bicicleur
23-12-14, 13:29
I would guess N1, because of the link with Pit-Comb Ware
pottery existed 20000 years ago in China, and N1 brought it through Siberia to Europe (Khvalynsk 7000 years ago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalynsk_culture)
Finno-Ugric is related to N1c1

Robert6
23-12-14, 19:02
I would guess N1, because of the link with Pit-Comb Ware
pottery existed 20000 years ago in China, and N1 brought it through Siberia to Europe (Khvalynsk 7000 years ago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalynsk_culture)
Finno-Ugric is related to N1c1
Based on STR markers
The European N1c1 the clade N1c1a1a1a_L550
is much younger than the European R1a_Z283
So the R1a_Z283 was before the N1c1a1a1a_L550 in Europe

bicicleur
23-12-14, 19:40
Based on STR markers
The European N1c1 the clade N1c1a1a1a_L550
is much younger than the European R1a_Z283
So the R1a_Z283 was before the N1c1a1a1a_L550 in Europe

there is also N1a in Europe
N1c1 is relatively young, but N1 was probaly around in West Eurasia long time ago

Robert6
23-12-14, 19:57
there is also N1a in Europe
N1c1 is relatively young, but N1 was probaly around in West Eurasia long time ago
N1a is only in Balkans, there is no N1a in North Eastern Europe and no N1a in Central Asia.
The ancestor of N1a came to Hungary in the time of Iron age.

arvistro
23-12-14, 20:22
L550 is not the only N1C1 European clade. Please check here:
http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag150/Alex_Chartorisky/SNP-N-TREE4_zpsb6162baf.jpg

There are Carelian and Savonian clades without L550 mutation and even without VL29 mutation. L550 is just one branch of VL29 which as whole is European.

Robert6
23-12-14, 20:50
L550 is not the only N1C1 European clade. Please check here:
http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag150/Alex_Chartorisky/SNP-N-TREE4_zpsb6162baf.jpg

There are Carelian and Savonian clades without L550 mutation and even without VL29 mutation. L550 is just one branch of VL29 which as whole is European.
Yes, there are three European N1c1 branches
the N1c1_L550
the N1c1_CTS9976
and the N1c1_.Z1935
These branches have the age 3000 years old(descedants from three men which lived 3000 years ago).

Robert6
23-12-14, 21:01
In the glottochronological tree of linguist Starostin the Burushaski language is in the same branch together with the Ket language
The Burusho people have mostly R haplogroup
The Ket people have mostly Q haplogroup.
I think that Keltiminar people spoke a language close to the Burusho language,
and people from the Pit comb ware spoke a language that gived a substratum to German language.

ElHorsto
23-12-14, 21:47
What haplogroup was among people of Keltiminar culture and among people of Pit-Comb Ware culture?
Your opinions on this?


And here is some help from Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelteminar_culture
Scientists hold that Kelteminar culture is related to the Pit–Comb Ware culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2%80%93Comb_Ware_culture)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2%80%93Comb_Ware_culture
Some of this region was absorbed by the later Corded Ware horizon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture).

There could have been R1b.

Robert6
23-12-14, 22:03
There could have been R1b.
Almost no R1b in the territories of Pit Comb Ware culture

Robert6
23-12-14, 22:17
(Khvalynsk 7000 years ago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalynsk_culture)


I didn't understand why you mention Khvalynsk Chalcolithic age culture?
Khvalynsk people belonged to Pontid race,
and the Pontid race is now dominant in west Caucasus.

arvistro
23-12-14, 22:43
Pit-comb.
N1c VL29. 4000 years old, both sons found in Europe. Or mutation before that.
Whatever was there most likely did not survive in big numbers.

Robert6
23-12-14, 22:48
Pit-comb.
N1c VL29. 4000 years old, both sons found in Europe.
Pit-comb ware is ~ 6200 years old(4200 BC)
The N1c VL29 is ~ 4000 years old
There is 2000 years of difference

N1 appeared in Europe in Iron age, while the R1a in Europe is from the time of late Neolithic
Pit-Comb Ware is Neolithic/Late Neolithic culture

ElHorsto
23-12-14, 23:00
Almost no R1b in the territories of Pit Comb Ware culture

Sorry, I meant R1b in Kelteminar, not Pit Comb Ware, despite relationships. Kazakhstan has been vastly depopulated and repopulated. Kelteminar is very southern, so R1b is just my guess.

bicicleur
24-12-14, 11:34
Yes, there are three European N1c1 branches
the N1c1_L550
the N1c1_CTS9976
and the N1c1_.Z1935
These branches have the age 3000 years old(descedants from three men which lived 3000 years ago).

N1c are Yakut
they split some 8000 years ago, maybe in Central Asia

bicicleur
24-12-14, 11:41
I didn't understand why you mention Khvalynsk Chalcolithic age culture?
Khvalynsk people belonged to Pontid race,
and the Pontid race is now dominant in west Caucasus.

N1 brought the first pottery to Europe from China
Khvalynsk was the 1st culture in Europe with this type of pottery
I don't think Khvalynsk were N1, but their must have been some contact with N1, maybe even some exchange of mtDNA
Pit-Comb also had this pottery. What about the Kelteminar?

What is the Pontid race?
And how do you recognize it? Skeletons?

Robert6
24-12-14, 17:13
N1c are Yakut
they split some 8000 years ago, maybe in Central Asia
Yakuts came from North-Eastern Mongolia and from Baikal regions these regions are far away from Uzbekistan-Turkmenistan(far away from Keltiminar Culture), and have 25% Mongolian words in their language

Robert6
24-12-14, 17:32
What is the Pontid race?
And how do you recognize it? Skeletons?
Anthpologist Trofimova( Трофимова Т. А. ) wrote about this, that people of Khwalynsk culture were of Pontid subtype.

Pontid subtype is among Adyghe Abkhasians Mishar Tatars(they live close to Mordovia) western Georgians(Megrels Laz)
part of Russians from Don - Khopyor regions, and among part of southern Ukranians.


Alans and Scythians also belonged to Pontid subtype


Pontid subtype is part of Mediteranean race

bicicleur
24-12-14, 18:50
Yakuts came from North-Eastern Mongolia and from Baikal regions these regions are far away from Uzbekistan-Turkmenistan(far away from Keltiminar Culture), and have 25% Mongolian words in their language

Yakuts - N1c - were iron age cattle herders on the steppe.
They were defeated by the Mongols west of lake Bajkal.
Only a few survived and fled to present day Yakutia, the are not Turkic, yet they are surrounded by Turkic speaking people.

As cattle herders on the steppe they may have traveled a long way before their defeat.
Where from nobody seems to know.

Finns and Saami - N1c1 - were hunters near Finland since 600 BC.
Some say they were cattle herders before they moved northwest.

bicicleur
24-12-14, 18:52
Anthpologist Trofimova( Трофимова Т. А. ) wrote about this, that people of Khwalynsk culture were of Pontid subtype.

Pontid subtype is among Adyghe Abkhasians Mishar Tatars(they live close to Mordovia) western Georgians(Megrels Laz)
part of Russians from Don - Khopyor regions, and among part of southern Ukranians.


Alans and Scythians also belonged to Pontid subtype


Pontid subtype is part of Mediteranean race

Some 6 the century Alans near the Don have been identified as G2, right?

Robert6
24-12-14, 19:09
Still no connection to Keltiminar territories


All the south and center of Andronovo horizont was almost in same territories with Keltiminar culture, so if people of Andronovo culture migrated towards Iran and people of Keltiminar culture had N1c, than we would see N1c in Iran, but there is none.

Robert6
24-12-14, 19:23
Some 6 the century Alans near the Don have been identified as G2, right?
Don Alans of Saltovo-Mayaki culture also will be tested in European laboratory, we should wait for the results.

And other Alans from different centuries and different places will be tested in two different laboratories

Sile
24-12-14, 19:44
Some 6 the century Alans near the Don have been identified as G2, right?

G2 is not alans , it is north caucasus.........otzi is G-L91, in Isogg he labeled as G2a2b , he has north caucasus markers.

G2a2 split ......G2a2b is in the alps and G2a2a is in northern greece

Basically G2a was already in europe before the Alans where even born

ElHorsto
24-12-14, 20:06
Sorry, I meant R1b in Kelteminar, not Pit Comb Ware, despite relationships. Kazakhstan has been vastly depopulated and repopulated. Kelteminar is very southern, so R1b is just my guess.

R1b-M73 to be more precise. Also the close relative M269 is well possible, as it occurs in high frequency not far further south near Teheran. I think Central Asia deserves more attention concerning R1b.

bicicleur
24-12-14, 20:22
Still no connection to Keltiminar territories


All the south and center of Andronovo horizont was almost in same territories with Keltiminar culture, so if people of Andronovo culture migrated towards Iran and people of Keltiminar culture had N1c, than we would see N1c in Iran, but there is none.

the Andronovo people moving south to BMAC were cattle herders
Kelteminar were huntergatherers, alltough some of them might have become cattle herders too, after contact with Andronovo, so maybe ..

if you're looking for people that live today in Iran, Q*, Q1* and Q1b would be an option too..

bicicleur
24-12-14, 20:23
G2 is not alans , it is north caucasus.........otzi is G-L91, in Isogg he labeled as G2a2b , he has north caucasus markers.

G2a2 split ......G2a2b is in the alps and G2a2a is in northern greece

Basically G2a was already in europe before the Alans where even born

it was a surprise to me wen I learned this
I see, you're surprised too ..

Robert6
24-12-14, 20:39
R1b-M73 to be more precise. Also the close relative M269 is well possible, as it occurs in high frequency not far further south near Teheran. I think Central Asia deserves more attention concerning R1b.
Not much of R1b1a1-M73 in Iran only 0.1% (1 of 1000)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

Robert6
24-12-14, 20:48
Basically G2a was already in europe before the Alans where even born

Don Alans worshiped the fox, like the LBK(in central Europe) people worshiped the fox
and the people of Gobekli-Tepe(in Syrian-Anatolian plain) also worshiped the fox.

ElHorsto
24-12-14, 20:57
Not much of R1b1a1-M73 in Iran only 0.1% (1 of 1000)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

But I wrote there is M269 near Teheran, not M73. From your link:

Zoroastrian, Teheran:

R1b1a2*-M269* 15.4%

And if there is no M73 in Iran it does not imply that it did not exist nearby, because M73 is also absent west of Ukraine, but it is very strong not far away in south Urals.

And then the closest relative of M73 happens to be M269, so they might have been one and the same not long ago in Central Asia and also branched yet there.

Robert6
24-12-14, 21:10
But I wrote there is M269 near Teheran, not M73. From your link:

Zoroastrian, Teheran:

R1b1a2*-M269* 15.4%

And if there is no M73 in Iran it does not imply that it did not exist nearby, because M73 is also absent west of Ukraine, but it is very strong not far away in south Urals.

And then the closest relative of M73 happens to be M269, so they might have been one and the same not long ago in Central Asia and also branched yet there.
If Keltiminar was not connected to Pit comb Ware(according to archaeologists and anthropologists these cultures are related)
then I would say that Keltiminar had R1b1a2 M269 or Q1a1b M25 or some branches of J2a
or even branches of G.
But as I said Keltiminar and Pit comb Ware are related.

Robert6
24-12-14, 21:59
G2 is not alans
For those who don't know 6 Don Alans(from Russian Ukrainian borders) of 8 century tested G2 it is believed that Don Alans spoke Iranian language.
And one from Meotae territories tested R1a age of the bones more than 3000 years old,
It is believed(from most of Historians) that Meotae spoke Adyghe(West Caucasian) language


But I want see also ancient dna results of Alans from laboratories outside Russia


Meotae result in page 70
http://ssc-ras.ru/files/files/Southerns%20Regions%20Population.pdf




Don Alans results in page 314
https://www.academia.edu/7061155/%D0%90%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%B5%D 0%B2_%D0%93.%D0%95._%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%BE %D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_% D0%9C.%D0%92._%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE %D0%B2_%D0%94.%D0%A1._%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%B5%D1% 82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0_%D0%98.%D0%9A._%D0%9E_%D0%BA% D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0 %B9_%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0% BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE %D0%B9_%D0%B8_%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8 %D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%BF% D0%B5%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B5_%D0%B4%D 0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%85_%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0 %B0%D0%BD_%D0%95.%D0%98._%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF% D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%B8_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2% D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B5%D 0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0 %B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D0%9A%D0% B0%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0._%D0%9C._2014._%D 0%A1._312-315

Sile
24-12-14, 23:08
Don Alans worshiped the fox, like the LBK(in central Europe) people worshiped the fox
and the people of Gobekli-Tepe(in Syrian-Anatolian plain) also worshiped the fox.

so what.............many races worshipped many aninals ...........means nothing

Gobekli-Tepe are no foxes on any monument, only worshipped animals was the boar and anatolian lioness

Sile
24-12-14, 23:12
For those who don't know 6 Don Alans(from Russian Ukrainian borders) of 8 century tested G2 it is believed that Don Alans spoke Iranian language.
And one from Meotae territories tested R1a age of the bones more than 3000 years old,
It is believed(from most of Historians) that Meotae spoke Adyghe(West Caucasian) language


But I want see also ancient dna results of Alans from laboratories outside Russia


Meotae result in page 70
http://ssc-ras.ru/files/files/Southerns%20Regions%20Population.pdf




Don Alans results in page 314
https://www.academia.edu/7061155/%D0%90%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%B5%D 0%B2_%D0%93.%D0%95._%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%BE %D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_% D0%9C.%D0%92._%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE %D0%B2_%D0%94.%D0%A1._%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%B5%D1% 82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0_%D0%98.%D0%9A._%D0%9E_%D0%BA% D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0 %B9_%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0% BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE %D0%B9_%D0%B8_%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8 %D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%BF% D0%B5%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B5_%D0%B4%D 0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%85_%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0 %B0%D0%BD_%D0%95.%D0%98._%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF% D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%B8_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2% D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B5%D 0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0 %B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D0%9A%D0% B0%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0._%D0%9C._2014._%D 0%A1._312-315

I did not find it

G2 is not alans, the G2 that did not migrate eventually became Alans thousands of years later.........bu as proved G2 was already in the alps 6000 years before alans created

Sile
24-12-14, 23:14
Don Alans of Saltovo-Mayaki culture also will be tested in European laboratory, we should wait for the results.

And other Alans from different centuries and different places will be tested in two different laboratories

Best for you is to start your history in the bronze-age........the ages you speak about are useless , they say nothing on who the ancients where.

Alan period/ages are too too too late

Robert6
25-12-14, 00:24
I did not find it

G2 is not alans, the G2 that did not migrate eventually became Alans thousands of years later.........bu as proved G2 was already in the alps 6000 years before alans created
Here is some translation
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30314-Alans(with-Catacomb-burial-ritual)-from-River-Don-8-th-century-6-had-haplogroup-G2

Robert6
25-12-14, 00:34
Best for you is to start your history in the bronze-age........the ages you speak about are useless , they say nothing on who the ancients where.

Alan period/ages are too too too late
Why Bronze age?
Cimmerians Scythians Sarmatians and after them Alanians started to expand in Iron ages they all had Iron and Steel weapons, Iron Akinakes for example is the archeological marker of Scythians and of Medes.
Cimmerians first Iron age new comers to Pontic steppes, they smashed out the Bronze age western steppes people.

bicicleur
25-12-14, 00:57
For those who don't know 6 Don Alans(from Russian Ukrainian borders) of 8 century tested G2 it is believed that Don Alans spoke Iranian language.
And one from Meotae territories tested R1a age of the bones more than 3000 years old,
It is believed(from most of Historians) that Meotae spoke Adyghe(West Caucasian) language


But I want see also ancient dna results of Alans from laboratories outside Russia


Meotae result in page 70
http://ssc-ras.ru/files/files/Southerns%20Regions%20Population.pdf




Don Alans results in page 314
https://www.academia.edu/7061155/%D0%90%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%B5%D 0%B2_%D0%93.%D0%95._%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%BE %D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_% D0%9C.%D0%92._%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE %D0%B2_%D0%94.%D0%A1._%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%B5%D1% 82%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0_%D0%98.%D0%9A._%D0%9E_%D0%BA% D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0 %B9_%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0% BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE %D0%B9_%D0%B8_%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8 %D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%BF% D0%B5%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B5_%D0%B4%D 0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%85_%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0 %B0%D0%BD_%D0%95.%D0%98._%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF% D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%B8_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2% D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B5%D 0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0 %B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D0%9A%D0% B0%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0._%D0%9C._2014._%D 0%A1._312-315

who are meotae?
could they be related to Cimmerians? or Scyths?

Robert6
25-12-14, 11:20
who are meotae?
could they be related to Cimmerians? or Scyths?
Mæotæ expanded before the Cimmerians(and before the Scythians)
Mæotæ(Maeotians)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeotians

Their subdivisions included the Sindi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindi_(people)), the Dandarii (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandarii), theToreatae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toreatae), the Agri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agri_(Maeotae)), the Arrechi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrechi), the Tarpetes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarpetes), theObidiaceni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obidiaceni), the Sittaceni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sittaceni), the Dosci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosci), and "many" others.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeotians#cite_note-straystray-3)


Soviet archaeologists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_archaeology), historians, and ethnographers concluded the Maeotians were one of the Circassian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_people) tribes.[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeotians#cite_note-12)[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeotians#cite_note-14)

Robert6
25-12-14, 13:22
Mæotæ expanded before the Cimmerians(and before the Scythians)
Mæotæ(Maeotians)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeotians

Their subdivisions included the Sindi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindi_(people)), the Dandarii (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandarii), theToreatae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toreatae), the Agri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agri_(Maeotae)), the Arrechi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrechi), the Tarpetes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarpetes), theObidiaceni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obidiaceni), the Sittaceni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sittaceni), the Dosci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosci), and "many" others.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeotians#cite_note-straystray-3)


Soviet archaeologists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_archaeology), historians, and ethnographers concluded the Maeotians were one of the Circassian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_people) tribes.[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeotians#cite_note-12)[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeotians#cite_note-14)
The interesting thing is that Maeotians had many Fish(source of vitamin D) in their diet (and beacause of that were more fertile?), like the people of Keltiminar Pit-Comb-Ware and Corded Ware cultures

ElHorsto
25-12-14, 14:25
If Keltiminar was not connected to Pit comb Ware(according to archaeologists and anthropologists these cultures are related)
then I would say that Keltiminar had R1b1a2 M269 or Q1a1b M25 or some branches of J2a
or even branches of G.
But as I said Keltiminar and Pit comb Ware are related.

Ok, but Pit Comb area from Finland to Turkmenistan is 4000 km. I thought that should be enough space for other haplogroups like R1b within Pit Comb Ware peoples? And then Pit Comb Ware extended beyond the Urals, while in South Urals R1b already starts to become strong.
R1b M73 barely exists west of the Urals, but there is a strong trail down to Afghanistan via Central Asia:
http://bsecher.pagesperso-orange.fr/genetique/R1b-M73.jpg

And then in the Eupedia map (http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b_World.png) for R1b in general, see the concentration in Turkmenistan (~Keltiminar region).
However I don't know the variance.

Robert6
25-12-14, 16:37
Ok, but Pit Comb area from Finland to Turkmenistan is 4000 km. I thought that should be enough space for other haplogroups like R1b within Pit Comb Ware peoples? And then Pit Comb Ware extended beyond the Urals, while in South Urals R1b already starts to become strong.
R1b M73 barely exists west of the Urals, but there is a strong trail down to Afghanistan via Central Asia:
http://bsecher.pagesperso-orange.fr/genetique/R1b-M73.jpg

And then in the Eupedia map (http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b_World.png) for R1b in general, see the concentration in Turkmenistan (~Keltiminar region).
However I don't know the variance.
I don't think that R1b-M73 is local in west part of central Asia it is from Ordos and Uyghuria,
R1b-M73 is among Kypsak subtribe of Bashkirs,
Qangli-Kipchak subtribe of Karakalpaks,
KaraQypshaq subtribe of Kazakhs,
Kipshak subtribe of Noghays,
Kumandins(Cuman Kipchaks) subtribe of Altayans,
and among Mongoloid Hazara in Afghanistan
Cuman-Kipchaks came from Uyghuria(west China)



Before the existence of Yamna culture
the Combed ware(Pit-Comb ware) and Keltiminar cultures were almost neighboring.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yamna-en.svg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Yamna-en.svg/220px-Yamna-en.svg.png

bicicleur
25-12-14, 18:14
Ok, but Pit Comb area from Finland to Turkmenistan is 4000 km. I thought that should be enough space for other haplogroups like R1b within Pit Comb Ware peoples? And then Pit Comb Ware extended beyond the Urals, while in South Urals R1b already starts to become strong.
R1b M73 barely exists west of the Urals, but there is a strong trail down to Afghanistan via Central Asia:
http://bsecher.pagesperso-orange.fr/genetique/R1b-M73.jpg

And then in the Eupedia map (http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b_World.png) for R1b in general, see the concentration in Turkmenistan (~Keltiminar region).
However I don't know the variance.

this map in not complete, because people further east were not included in the study

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b_World.png

10 % of Uyghur are R1b, also Turkmenistan has a lot of R1b
I wonder wether they are M73 as well.
In that case it would mean Tocharians.

bicicleur
25-12-14, 18:19
The interesting thing is that Maeotians had many Fish(source of vitamin D) in their diet (and beacause of that were more fertile?), like the people of Keltiminar Pit-Comb-Ware and Corded Ware cultures

acording to David Anthony, before invention of the wheel (before Yamna) people on the Pontic steppe lived near the big rivers, and ate a lot of fish too

bicicleur
25-12-14, 18:21
What haplogroup was among people of Keltiminar culture and among people of Pit-Comb Ware culture?
Your opinions on this?


And here is some help from Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelteminar_culture
Scientists hold that Kelteminar culture is related to the Pit–Comb Ware culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2%80%93Comb_Ware_culture)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2%80%93Comb_Ware_culture
Some of this region was absorbed by the later Corded Ware horizon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture).

Kelteminar ended 3500 BC
What happened to those which were not absorbed by corded ware?

Robert6
25-12-14, 20:12
Kelteminar ended 3500 BC
What happened to those which were not absorbed by corded ware?

Keltiminar culture existed until the coming of Tazabagjab culture,
Tazabagjab culture came in the XV century BC, to Uzbekistan.
(Tazabagjab culture is part of Andronovo horizon).



Descedants of Pit-Comb ware culture are
1)Marianovskaya culture(was in forest steppe Ukraine and in eastern Polesie)
2)"Textile" ceramic culture was in the East and North regions of Pit-Comb ware
(i.e. exept the Western part of Pit-Comb ware which was in Corded ware)


Marianovskaya culture(in Russian)
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D 1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1 %82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0

"Textile" ceramic culture(in Russian)
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0_% D1%81%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D 0%BA%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8

Silesian
26-12-14, 00:26
Ok, but Pit Comb area from Finland to Turkmenistan is 4000 km. I thought that should be enough space for other haplogroups like R1b within Pit Comb Ware peoples? And then Pit Comb Ware extended beyond the Urals, while in South Urals R1b already starts to become strong.
R1b M73 barely exists west of the Urals, but there is a strong trail down to Afghanistan via Central Asia:
http://bsecher.pagesperso-orange.fr/genetique/R1b-M73.jpg

And then in the Eupedia map (http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b_World.png) for R1b in general, see the concentration in Turkmenistan (~Keltiminar region).
However I don't know the variance.
Eastern R1b [L51-] Z2103+Z2105+ L277+ & L584+ and Z2106+ and Khazakstan
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/alash/default.aspx?section=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx
Odd R1b-Z2106+ rare showing in Bhutan and Han Chinese.

Sile
26-12-14, 01:57
Why Bronze age?
Cimmerians Scythians Sarmatians and after them Alanians started to expand in Iron ages they all had Iron and Steel weapons, Iron Akinakes for example is the archeological marker of Scythians and of Medes.
Cimmerians first Iron age new comers to Pontic steppes, they smashed out the Bronze age western steppes people.

Because 1200BC bronzeage migrations changed the landscape of the ancients. By the iron-age the people had relatively settled down until the barbarian invasions of 400AD

Robert6
26-12-14, 12:03
Because 1200BC bronzeage migrations changed the landscape of the ancients. By the iron-age the people had relatively settled down until the barbarian invasions of 400AD
What?
In 1200BC was the collapse of Bronze age, the Sea people were invading all over the known world, nothing could settle down after that.

After them in late Bronze Age, Barbaric invasion of Sygines in 9-10 centuries BC from Ordos (China), towards Lurestan(Iran) and after that with Iron weapons they invaded Hungary.
Invasion of Dorians with Iron weapons in 9-10 centuries BC to Greece.
Invasion of Cimmerians in 8-9 centuries BC to South Caucasus and Anatolia,
Invasion of Scythians in 6-8 centuries to Palestine, to Syria, to India, to Urartu, to Sistan(Sacaestan in Southern Iran), to eastern Anatolia(Capaedocia), to Caucasus, to Pontic Steppe.
Medes conquered many places in early Iron age.
e.t.c.

Sile
26-12-14, 18:37
What?
In 1200BC was the collapse of Bronze age, the Sea people were invading all over the known world, nothing could settle down after that.

After them in late Bronze Age, Barbaric invasion of Sygines in 9-10 centuries BC from Ordos (China), towards Lurestan(Iran) and after that with Iron weapons they invaded Hungary.
Invasion of Dorians with Iron weapons in 9-10 centuries BC to Greece.
Invasion of Cimmerians in 8-9 centuries BC to South Caucasus and Anatolia,
Invasion of Scythians in 6-8 centuries to Palestine, to Syria, to India, to Urartu, to Sistan(Sacaestan in Southern Iran), to eastern Anatolia(Capaedocia), to Caucasus, to Pontic Steppe.
Medes conquered many places in early Iron age.
e.t.c.

you start in the iron-age............I will start in the late bronze-age .......end of discussion

so I expect no discussion of the doric invasion and replacement of the myceneans in greece in late bronze-age

Robert6
26-12-14, 18:45
Dorians had Iron weapons.

Sile
26-12-14, 18:47
Dorians had Iron weapons.

Dorians replaced Myceneans in 1100BC before iron age weapons emerged around 800BC

Robert6
26-12-14, 19:33
Dorians replaced Myceneans in 1100BC before iron age weapons emerged around 800BC
Iron weapons emerged 18 century BC in central Anatolia, but I don't know exactly when Iron weapons were in south Balkans.

About Dorian invasiaon
The problem is that there are no traces of any Dorians anywhere until the start of theGeometric period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_Art) about 950 BC. This simple pottery decoration appears to be correlated with other changes in material culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_culture), such as the introduction of iron weapons and alterations in burial practices from Mycenaean group burials in tholos tombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tholos_tomb) to individual burials and cremation. These can certainly be associated with the historical Dorian settlers, such as those of Sparta in the 10th century BC.

Sile
26-12-14, 19:45
Iron weapons emerged 18 century BC in central Anatolia, but I don't know exactly when Iron weapons were in south Balkans.

About Dorian invasiaon
The problem is that there are no traces of any Dorians anywhere until the start of theGeometric period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_Art) about 950 BC. This simple pottery decoration appears to be correlated with other changes in material culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_culture), such as the introduction of iron weapons and alterations in burial practices from Mycenaean group burials in tholos tombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tholos_tomb) to individual burials and cremation. These can certainly be associated with the historical Dorian settlers, such as those of Sparta in the 10th century BC.

show me proof that ironage began 1800BC

Robert6
26-12-14, 21:18
show me proof that ironage began 1800BC
In 2005, metallurgical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy) analysis by Hideo Akanuma of iron fragments found at Kaman-Kalehöyük in 1994 and dating to c. 1800 BCE revealed that some of these fragments were in fact composed of carbon steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel); these currently form the world's earliest known evidence for steel manufacture.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaman-Kaleh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaman-Kaleh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk#cite_note-2)

bicicleur
27-12-14, 12:03
In 2005, metallurgical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy) analysis by Hideo Akanuma of iron fragments found at Kaman-Kalehöyük in 1994 and dating to c. 1800 BCE revealed that some of these fragments were in fact composed of carbon steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel); these currently form the world's earliest known evidence for steel manufacture.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaman-Kaleh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaman-Kaleh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk#cite_note-2)

most iron was of poor quality and production was not efficient
only 10th/11th century BC there was know how to make good quality iron with correct carbon content in an efficient way
iron ore was abundant
wherever this know how spread, iron age started

can you tell more about iron age Dorians?

Robert6
27-12-14, 13:25
most iron was of poor quality and production was not efficient
only 10th/11th century BC there was know how to make good quality iron with correct carbon content in an efficient way
iron ore was abundant
wherever this know how spread, iron age started

Purushanda features again in the stories of the campaigns of the 17th century BC Hittite ruler Anitta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anitta).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purushanda#cite_note-Bryce39-4) The Purushandan kingdom appears to have been a significant rival ofKanesh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanesh), the kingdom ruled by Anitta. The Hittite king launched a war against Purushanda but according to the Anitta Text, a Hittite account of later date, the Purushandan king surrendered to the Hittite army:[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purushanda#cite_note-Bryce39-4)
When I ... went into battle, the Man of Purushanda brought gifts to me; he brought to me a throne of iron and a sceptre of iron as a gift. But when I returned to Nesa [Kanesh] I took the Man of Purushanda with me. As soon as he enters the chamber, that man will sit before me on the right.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purushanda#cite_note-5)

+
In the tomb of Egyptian pharaoh Tutankhamun (c. 1350 BC. ) was found one iron dagger, apparently given to him by the Hittites

Robert6
27-12-14, 14:15
can you tell more about iron age Dorians?
"Dorieus"(Dorian) ~ Lumberjack/Woodcutter
The importance of a such men (Lumberjacks/Woodcutters) is higher in the time of Iron age.