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Angela
23-12-14, 19:28
Since we're all waiting for Dna on the peoples of the steppe, I thought we might take a look at a series of reconstructions done of them. Of course, caution is advised, given the inaccuracy of the first reconstructions of Otzi, and the fact that these images have been put up on the internet by the usual suspect sources. If they have been misattributed, let me know, and I’ll edit the post.

This is supposedly from Dnieper Donetsk Culture.

http://i49.tinypic.com/302vpjk.jpg

Sredniy Stog-mid 5th millennium BC:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/Gimbutas/GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddess/GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddessFig10-7c.jpg

These samples supposedly hail from: “the Late Copper Age - Early Bronze Age (3600-2300 BC. e . ) . "Occupied the territory of the Southern Urals to the east of the Dniester River on the western steppe"


http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/aiwn07/sraz_5.jpg
http://i013.radikal.ru/0801/8b/7a231df9bcfd.jpg

Gerasimov reconstructions from the Middle Volga:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SWWuSc5VoWw/TwPBbCD73jI/AAAAAAAALHY/fHS9TVNvmuE/s1600/neolreclyalovo12.jpg

An image of a Yamna man courtesy of the Wiki article of them:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/Yamna_culture.jpg Given the leaks about the upcoming papers, here are ancient Karelians:http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/kajafig1.jpg

Angela
23-12-14, 19:46
Later Steppe Peoples:


Sarmatians:
http://img12.nnm.ru/5/d/b/4/d/00b0b89ce8ea3cb814febd518e9.jpg

Scythian Archers:
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/images/scythians1.jpg


Scythian Man from Nikopol Kurgan:
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ghQSgttbod4/hqdefault.jpg

The above seem rather consistent...very high cheekbones, projecting large noses, retreating foreheads, flat occiput.

This supposed reconstruction of a Scythian woman seems a bit different?
http://www.praeparator.ch/inhalt/skythin_tattoo2gross.jpg

Aberdeen
23-12-14, 20:18
Thanks, Angela. That's very interesting. However, even when we're talking about a population that would have been considerably less admixed than modern populations, I'm somewhat skeptical of the idea that there would have just been one phenotype for the entire group, especially if the steppe people we think were the Proto-Indo-Europeans were a mixture of steppe nomads and some other population (such as possibly Maikop) that gave them some of their technology and possibly even the IE language.

Angela
23-12-14, 20:55
Thanks, Angela. That's very interesting. However, even when we're talking about a population that would have been considerably less admixed than modern populations, I'm somewhat skeptical of the idea that there would have just been one phenotype for the entire group, especially if the steppe people we think were the Proto-Indo-Europeans were a mixture of steppe nomads and some other population (such as possibly Maikop) that gave them some of their technology and possibly even the IE language.

Oh, I totally agree that there might have been admixture even in groups like Dnieper Donetsk and Sredny Stog, much less the later Yamna groups. I think it's pretty clear now that the internet mantra insisted upon by some that the Caucasus was a total genetic barrier is not accurate. In fact, it was clear even before the latest statements from the Reich group.

I don't know if you saw this review of a paper on Maykop crania.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/06/analysis-of-maikop-crania-kazarnitsky.html

Mainly, i just wanted a mental image of the appearance of these ancient people, and also I wanted to see if there was a perceptible change from, say, more northerly and mesolithic people to later Yamnaya people.

Unfortunately, I could only find the one representation that unambiguously stated that it was a Yamnaya specimen. Perhaps someone else knows of others.

Fire Haired14
23-12-14, 21:18
What about the tarim mummies?

https://www.google.com/search?q=tarim+mummies&espv=2&biw=1537&bih=1001&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=3L-ZVIqUCY-hyASo2oKgAw&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQsAQ&dpr=0.67

Angela
23-12-14, 21:24
Thanks, Fire-Haired,

I hadn't gotten around to them yet.

Fire Haired14
23-12-14, 22:19
The people of central Asia in general are interesting. Someone gave Davidski a freehand sketch of a PCA with all the ancient European genomes aviable to Reich, in case none of you know of it.

https://imageshack.com/f/f0blmKW4p

Based on Laz saying Yamna can fit as 50% Armenian and 50% EHG(Mesolithic east Euro) and this PCA, it appears Yamna was basically the same a modern resident of Ural Russia but the near eastern and WHG ancestry proportions are switched, and they had little to no east Asian ancestry. Yamna in laz terms was probably around 55% EEF, 25% ANE, and 20% WHG. Some how WHG and east Asian rose in Russia in the last 5,000 years.

motzart
24-12-14, 15:15
that woman has a gigantic mouth

MOESAN
25-12-14, 22:24
thanks to Angela for the pictures
That said, I recall again and again the fleshy anc cartilagenous parts of skulls and face CANNOT BEEN verified in any way - so all these reconstitutions are MORE ARTISTIC WORKS THAN TRUE FORENSIC WORKS! sure we can with geographic localization and good sense try to get close enough to reality but the prejudice of the maker is very weighty in the results! the first reconstitutions of 'cro-magnon' often gave them a long and broad fleshy nose tip, inclined towards the base: I think they had with high probability short snub noses closer to the 'borreby A' noses we can still find in Norther Europe - all the northern "archaic" types of Europe show a nose tip with something more 'mongoloid'-'negroid' (not so far as 'negroid', nevertheless, something 'infentile' I would say) even if their 'bony' nose relief is more pronounced so europeanlike -
cocerning WestAsia, some skulls and faces I saw merited maybe to be be "dressed" with a bit more 'mongoloid' traits than made by the 'forensic' workers....

Mars
25-12-14, 22:46
All of the reconstructions posted look broadly european... I think they can't be identified with a specifical ethnic group.

ElHorsto
26-12-14, 01:52
They look european and also their autosomal composition in Laz terms is quite average european, such that up to 50% admixture of these people in Europe are possible (f.i. Orcadians - their 12% Gedrosian could be 25%/2 ANE, ~50%/2 EEF). Their general genetic impact on old europe was probably rather high, especially in east, central and NW europe (R1a+R1b). A thrust which separates the more neolithic south-west from the more mesolithic north-east. This further would explain the proximity of these nations on most PCA plots.

Ironically, but not surprisingly, Hungarians who are non-IE speakers come relatively close in terms of admixture. Maybe their steppe origin is more preserved than usually thought, because steppe genetics has become generally widespread and unspecific in europe.

Angela
26-12-14, 18:08
. Some how WHG and east Asian rose in Russia in the last 5,000 years.

It's not too difficult to speculate how the "East Asian" could have intruded, but it's still not clear to me what migrations or in situ processes were involved in the creation of the WHG levels. We'll have to wait and see how much is in the Samara genomes, but I'm inclined to think that it isn't enough to explain the levels in northern Europe and particularly north-eastern Europe today.

Angela
26-12-14, 18:22
Obviously, as I stated in my first post, these "reconstructions" have to be taken with a grain of salt; the first ones of Otzi had him looking very northwestern European with blue eyes and "lightish" hair, and imo it's highly improbable that ancient WHG people looked like the reconstruction that was produced in the last year.

However, just assuming, for the moment, that these are representative, I find at least one of the "Ancient Karelians" rather "exotic" in terms of European phenotypes today, and perhaps even the Dnieper Donetsk and Volga man.

ElHorsto
26-12-14, 19:30
Some how WHG and east Asian rose in Russia in the last 5,000 years.

The inreased WHG comes at least from the scandinavian Hunter-Gatherers who were pushed east as attested by ancient Y-DNA.

MOESAN
26-12-14, 20:40
They look european and also their autosomal composition in Laz terms is quite average european, such that up to 50% admixture of these people in Europe are possible (f.i. Orcadians - their 12% Gedrosian could be 25%/2 ANE, ~50%/2 EEF). Their general genetic impact on old europe was probably rather high, especially in east, central and NW europe (R1a+R1b). A thrust which separates the more neolithic south-west from the more mesolithic north-east. This further would explain the proximity of these nations on most PCA plots.

Ironically, but not surprisingly, Hungarians who are non-IE speakers come relatively close in terms of admixture. Maybe their steppe origin is more preserved than usually thought, because steppe genetics has become generally widespread and unspecific in europe.

globally speaking for autosomals distances , Hungarians of today are roughly in a middle situation between Germans, Poles-Ukrainians and Bulgars-Romanians, not typically "eastern slav", not typically "occidental" not typically "southern" - the metric surveys shew they had a good imput of autochtonous population when supposed I-Ean steppic newcomers came at Metal Ages into the Carpathian Basin and that the mix that result of their Metals era history was not strongly changed by the Magyars among whom the East-Asian elements were very scarce - the steppic mix for the most was not so different from the local mix they had already taken part in -

ElHorsto
28-12-14, 00:51
Here are many very nice reconstructions (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/38378-First-Indo-Europeans) of Khvalynsk culture people. I hope it is ok to link to a thread of another forum here.

Here is a thread with reconstructions (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/36454-Skulls-amp-facial-reconstructions) of various peoples. Among them are Andronovo people, and they also look very average european. Skythians already look slightly more special, albeit european too.

ElHorsto
28-12-14, 01:17
globally speaking for autosomals distances , Hungarians of today are roughly in a middle situation between Germans, Poles-Ukrainians and Bulgars-Romanians, not typically "eastern slav", not typically "occidental" not typically "southern" - the metric surveys shew they had a good imput of autochtonous population when supposed I-Ean steppic newcomers came at Metal Ages into the Carpathian Basin and that the mix that result of their Metals era history was not strongly changed by the Magyars among whom the East-Asian elements were very scarce - the steppic mix for the most was not so different from the local mix they had already taken part in -

I remember in Lazaridis et al, Hungarians had only slightly elevated ANE compared to their neighbours, but else are average european as you say, and cluster as close to west europeans as to east europeans in all PCA plots I've seen. Hence my assumption of a not so distinct genetic composition in steppe peoples/proto-hungarians, just with more ANE and less WHG, as probably confirmed by the leaked rumour. They blended into old europe without causing drastic genetic change. In romance-greek southern europe they would have caused a slightly increased WHG+ANE influx (nuragic Sardinia has the least), while in north europe an additional EEF+ANE influx (ugric Finland has the least), besides the neolithic EEF.

Hauteville
29-12-14, 00:12
Good reconstructions!